Latest / Adventure Sports Podcast / Ep. 1137: EPIC Paddling with John Connelly

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Ep. 1137: EPIC Paddling with John Connelly · Adventure Sports Podcast

0:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for adventuring with us, as we discover what incredible athletes and outdoor enthusiasts are doing all over the world.
0:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Now here's your host, Kurt Linville.
0:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey friends, welcome to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:22
[SPEAKER_01]: A while back, I asked a question, which was about how to get a little bit more two-way community going with the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:32
[SPEAKER_01]: We have such an amazing resource of people all over the world, who love the outdoors, who love adventures, and I thought wouldn't be cool if we could visit with each other and learn from each other and maybe even meet up and do adventures together.
0:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I said, should we start a Discord server?
0:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I got a positive response from you folks saying, yeah, Discord would be cool.
0:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So finally found the time and did it.
0:55
[SPEAKER_01]: There is the Adventure Sports podcast Discord server by joining us on Discord.
1:02
[SPEAKER_01]: You would be able to chat with each other, even make phone calls to each other, post pictures, talk about adventures, shoot, maybe even people would like to meet up somewhere for adventures.
1:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So great resource for the Adventure Sports podcast community
1:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And I believe you have to have an imitation to join the server.
1:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's done via a URL, which I'm going to put in the show notes.
1:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that often when you listen to a podcast, you don't look at the show notes.
1:29
[SPEAKER_01]: This time you need to look at the show notes, so you can click the URL to join our Discord server.
1:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a lot of fun, and I'll see you there.
1:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Today, we're going to be talking about epic paddling, kayaking, canoeing, big big trips with John Connelly and John's main focus for many, many years has been encouraging other people to get into the outdoors and have their own epic adventures because of all of the value that brings to life and also to the natural environment.
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
2:00
[SPEAKER_01]: John has two books dying out there is not an option and that book is from about nine years ago and then there's a second new book that just came out if we're going to die.
2:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably here.
2:11
[SPEAKER_01]: John, welcome to the program.
2:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Curtis.
2:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm delighted to be here.
2:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I have to say, there's a lot of death in these titles.
2:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you trying to scare people away from the woods?
2:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, my first book, dying out here is not an option.
2:29
[SPEAKER_02]: That title was inspired by my wife, actually.
2:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Because from my 60th birthday, everybody was saying I should do something special I should do something big and I was pretty much an aged denial It was like, ah, it's just another number another birthday Really not that I'm not gonna make a big deal out of that, but then my incredible wife Nicole said You know, you really ought to you really ought to do something big for your birthday and I was like, okay, and I'm pretty sure she was thinking maybe take her to Italy
3:00
[SPEAKER_01]: somehow it turned into something else.
3:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, I did.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Because for years I had wanted to kayak the main island trail.
3:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
3:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had always wanted to canoe the northern forest canoe trail.
3:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought, well, here's my opportunity, I got.
3:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I could paddle both those trails and to make it really epic, I could connect them with the St. John River in the Bay of Fundy.
3:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that would be 1,500 miles.
3:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'd probably do it in about 75 days.
3:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I pitched the idea to my wife.
3:30
[SPEAKER_02]: No, she's like, what, not Italy?
3:32
[SPEAKER_02]: No, not Italy.
3:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And she said, okay, you know, I'm fully supportive of, but there are two conditions.
3:39
[SPEAKER_02]: One is, I need to know your safe at the end of every day.
3:42
[SPEAKER_02]: and the second condition is that you're not allowed to die.
3:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So, there was some very sketchy moment out there over that 75 days and there's 1500 miles where I literally reminded myself of my pledge to her not to die out.
3:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
3:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So, so that...
4:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you did this journey solo?
4:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
4:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
4:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It was 800 miles by canoe and 700 miles by sea kayak.
4:07
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think any time you are in nature, in the wilderness and the woods on the rivers you name it, but if you're so low, extra caution is required.
4:16
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no one there to help or to call for help.
4:18
[SPEAKER_02]: That is an absolute fact and there's a lot of soul searching that you do the process to and you're constantly.
4:26
[SPEAKER_02]: reassessing your risk for tolerance for risk and that has a lot to do with the environment.
4:33
[SPEAKER_02]: You're in the physical and mental condition that you're in and all of those things.
4:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's plenty of opportunity for things to go wrong.
4:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And so yes, you do have to be extra vigilant when you're out there by yourself.
4:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and not to mention that it can be really, really hard work too when you're doing things.
4:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I imagine there were some do you call it portages or
4:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so portages and carries when you're doing that solo, that can be easy.
5:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, it's not.
5:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really not.
5:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And some of the some of the portages and carries were over improved surfaces.
5:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So I actually, I actually had wheels with for my face and also for my kayak.
5:15
[SPEAKER_02]: But when in that, of course, makes going down the road or going down the improved
5:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Surface much more easily because then you just put your pack on and you have you know other things in your in your boat That you tow behind you.
5:28
[SPEAKER_02]: However, over the unimproved surfaces And something very difficult and long porridge where you can't use the wheels You have to carry the wheels also in addition to everything else.
5:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, so it was really really super important to go with super lightweight boat
5:43
[SPEAKER_02]: and all of my gear paired down to the essentials.
5:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything I absolutely need, but nothing more.
5:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And go as light as possible so that partages I would only have to make one trip.
5:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't have to take my gear and then go back and get my boat or vice versa.
5:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so will you just to get us into the, I guess, the setting?
6:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Will you summarize this adventure?
6:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we also want to hear about the one in the floor to Everglades, too.
6:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But let's do your 1500 mile when first.
6:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yes, so let me describe the root first.
6:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the first leg of it was the northern forest canoe trail and that is a network of Native American water trails going watershed to watershed and that of course back then is how they traveled because they were born at road and so they used water for travel and so there's like I said you go from watershed to watershed and it starts
6:43
[SPEAKER_02]: goes up Lake Champlain up the Mrs. Quay River into Quebec and then back down Lake Man from a Gug into Vermont, then across Vermont, across New Hampshire, into Western Maine, and then all the way up to the top of Maine in Fort Kent.
6:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's 740 miles.
7:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
7:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was I think, 55 portages and carries, totaling 60 miles I think.
7:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And there was 160 miles
7:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I said I was a combination of paddling upstream where I was able, tracking the boat upstream, which is getting out of the boat and pulling it upstream through the rock, so there was a lot of upstream travel involved in that as well.
7:29
[SPEAKER_02]: But once I got to Fort Kent main, I wanted to connect to the main island trail, but I was still
7:35
[SPEAKER_02]: 385 miles away from that.
7:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So I went down the St. John River and down the Bay of Fundy in New Brunswick and then continue from Lou Beckman down the 375 miles if the main coastline to the border in New Hampshire.
7:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that was the route.
7:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So when talking about the various conditions that I've encountered, I wanted to get going early in the season because I wanted
8:04
[SPEAKER_02]: spring snow melt and spring rains.
8:07
[SPEAKER_02]: There was the weather got warm unexpectedly early in the Adirondex and they had the second earliest ice out on the lakes up there and I think recorded history so it was exceptionally early.
8:19
[SPEAKER_02]: It was April 16th that I got started and I started a week after the ice went out because when the ice is freshly out all you need is a couple of cold nights and it'll freeze up and start it.
8:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, so I didn't want to get stranded on an island in a lake someplace.
8:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So I waited till the water had warmed up enough so that that would not be as much of a concern.
8:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And so starting April 16th, I struck out and it was really nice when I started, weather wise, but of course nature has a way of evening things out.
8:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So I knew that as warm and nice as it was when I began, probably going to get
8:54
[SPEAKER_02]: pretty cold and nasty later on.
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And that did come to pass.
8:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there were mornings when I woke up and all of my wet paddling gear was frozen stiff as a board and I had to warm it up with my body heat to get it pliable enough to put it on.
9:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Some mornings my gear was covered in snow.
9:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I experienced
9:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man.
9:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as a matter of fact, I start the book with an episode that occurred on Moose Look McGunnaClake in Maine and it was a, it was a nice calm morning but it was, it was really dank and you know the air was laden with moisture and it was very dreary and overcast and there was a, there was a, there was a cold front supposed to come in later in the day but it was gonna be later in the afternoon and it wasn't forecasted to be particularly strong.
9:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I started to cross the lake and it was many hours before the front was supposed to come through.
9:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So I had plenty of time and because it was not windy at all, I took a B-line course across the lake and open water crossing in about six miles instead of what I would do if there was an impending
10:07
[SPEAKER_02]: weather event or a lot of wind which would be and in this open canoe you know this expedition canoe loaded with gear It would be to take the ups the upwind shoreline and hug the shoreline to stay out of the wind and waves right So the shore gives you a little bit of a wind break
10:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it gives you wind break.
10:26
[SPEAKER_02]: The shoreline does.
10:29
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's a much longer way.
10:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought I'd just do a bee line straight across the lake.
10:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And I got about two miles in.
10:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And literally I could hear it before I could see it.
10:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And the wind came.
10:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And the waves jacked up to about three feet.
10:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had white caps off.
10:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had to hit my boat away from the breaking waves in order to keep the waves
10:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I was unable to take a direct line to the nearest safety, the leaside of the shoreline, because that particular angle my boat was taking on water from the waves.
11:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh no.
11:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So I had to maintain the boat angle that I had to stay dry or my best chance of staying dry and continue paddling all the way across that lake.
11:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it started to rain.
11:18
[SPEAKER_02]: in the rain turn to snow and it was absolutely white out.
11:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was basically using the direction of the wind and the angle to the waves to maintain my direction across the lake and got to the other side.
11:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And the water was in the high thirties.
11:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was, it was not the kind of memory for us swim, even wearing a dry suit and having the appropriate layers underneath out there by yourself.
11:44
[SPEAKER_02]: You just don't want that to happen.
11:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So John, you know, people always give us the details like you just did.
11:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did this, so I did that.
11:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's wonderful.
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But I know that inside of your chest, something else was going on.
11:59
[SPEAKER_01]: What did this feel like knowing that I really missed this one?
12:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it.
12:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the first thing that came to mind was that dying out there was not an option.
12:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I really needed to, I really needed to summon my skills and experiences of white water, kayaker and white water canoeists.
12:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I'm very, very comfortable in, in
12:26
[SPEAKER_02]: difficult white water situation and good yeah and there's just a part of me that puts everything into slow motion even though it's not and I've seemed to be able to calm myself and manage the situation and that's really what I did.
12:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't allow myself to get tent.
12:48
[SPEAKER_02]: When you get tents you lock into your boat and when your boat's rocking around side to side.
12:52
[SPEAKER_02]: If you get tents then you're
12:54
[SPEAKER_02]: your upper body is almost like a pendulum swinging back and forth over the center of lining your boat.
13:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it makes you less stable.
13:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to stay relaxed and have very fluid hip and allow the boat to move underneath of you.
13:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So you know, getting all tense up is just really works against you.
13:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm pretty good at staying calm under pressure.
13:16
[SPEAKER_02]: But once I got into the whole thing, it was like, oh my god.
13:23
[SPEAKER_01]: then you can feel it.
13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've talked to a lot of people who kind of like the pressure of okay, I'm in a bit of a pickle.
13:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to overcome the challenge.
13:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to stay focused.
13:32
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something about that that pulls us well into what some people call the flow, right?
13:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Or do you just get so focused on the one thing?
13:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And some people like that feeling so much they go looking for it.
13:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Other people try to avoid it.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But what's your advice?
13:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, panicking is not an option because then dying becomes an option, right?
13:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so what is your advice to people to have the right mindset?
13:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that it has a lot to do with your skill-based and your experience.
14:02
[SPEAKER_02]: if you when when you become engaged in an outdoor adventure sport don't start in the middle start at the beginning so that you are building on these novice experience so that you're your your body and your brain understand what is difficult and what is a true threat and if you start to calibrate yourself that way in situations that are not as consequential
14:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Why then that's a learning and then you can build on that by challenging yourself with more and more difficult situation hand in hand with that You need to have all of the self-rescue skills so right you need to be able to Take care of your mess if you create one all by yourself and be confident in doing that and having those skills because too many people are
14:47
[SPEAKER_02]: have the ambition to do the difficult thing, but don't have the foundation of the skill base in the experience to support that level in the activity.
14:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes they don't have the rescue skills at that level in the activity.
15:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then they can get in trouble.
15:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So I say, you know, start at the beginning, not the middle.
15:05
[SPEAKER_02]: and build your skills, your experience, and your confidence along the way.
15:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you'll really feel and understand the difference between stressful situation, challenging situation, and something that's unsafe or dangerous.
15:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And you build your own tolerance for risk based upon, you know, some that solid foundation.
15:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
15:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
15:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So we havelessness all over the world, John, and some of them are from warm climates, and they probably don't appreciate all of the dangers that you're encountering in this little story that you told us about crossing this lake.
15:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So what are the dangers?
15:39
[SPEAKER_01]: You're so people understand, and they're very significant.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is the real deal.
15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So what were you really up against?
15:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and in that particular instant, and there were similar ones too, walking away.
15:52
[SPEAKER_02]: In that particular instance, some of the factors were that it was an incredibly remote area.
15:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So if I got in trouble, there was nobody there to help.
16:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was there really seasoned.
16:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I was there really seasoned.
16:05
[SPEAKER_02]: There was nobody else on the water.
16:06
[SPEAKER_02]: It was literally not until I got on the end of the Aligash wilderness waterway in Maine.
16:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Almost finished with the trip, finished with the northern forest canoe trail.
16:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Only 700 and I was well over 700 miles into the trip and I had not seen another boat on the water Okay, so there's nobody out there with me to help me if I get in trouble sure and so I'm there early season The ice had just gone out so the water is extremely cold and you don't last long in icy water You're you're
16:39
[SPEAKER_02]: your body and your mind begin to shut down after a certain period of time, so you'd become unable to help yourself.
16:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's because of hypothermia.
16:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's hypothermia, absolutely.
16:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, 100%.
16:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I wore a dry suit to keep myself dry.
16:57
[SPEAKER_02]: That's better than a wet suit because you don't have to
17:00
[SPEAKER_02]: With a wetsuit, you have to flood the wetsuit with a layer of water, which initially is pretty chilly, and then the insulation of the neoprene and the wetsuit insulates that that layer of warm water next to your skin, and that's what keeps you warm.
17:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's way better to not get wet to begin with, so a dry suit has gaskets around the neck, has feet on it, and has gaskets around the wrists, and you zip into it.
17:27
[SPEAKER_02]: and you wear layers of warm clothing underneath.
17:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the insulation, the layers of warm clothing underneath.
17:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you've got the protective layer of the dry suit.
17:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So having the proper equipment in the right apparel is incredibly important.
17:44
[SPEAKER_02]: But even with that protection against the cold, prolonged period,
17:48
[SPEAKER_02]: in that temperature water could easily be fatal.
17:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, when not going along the shoreline and being out in the middle of a big lake, pretty much guaranteeing that unless you can somehow get your boat right, right, it and get back in it to be mostly out of the water.
18:06
[SPEAKER_02]: But you're gonna,
18:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be a really grim situation.
18:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a factor.
18:13
[SPEAKER_02]: The remoteness from shore, the remoteness from civilization, other people, the cold water.
18:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, the visibility issue when the white out of snow came.
18:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I was not able to see any of the shorelines.
18:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And I wasn't able to see very far at all.
18:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And that lasted for quite some time.
18:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So the visibility,
18:33
[SPEAKER_02]: and the lack thereof and needing to maintain my boat angle to keep the water from some coming, keep the waves from breaking into my boat and filling me up and sinking me.
18:44
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're all things that I was up against during that crossing.
18:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you had to take the long way home.
18:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, it's kind of funny.
18:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that there are a lot of listeners out there who have not done cold water paddling and they're thinking why?
18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the point?
18:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I grew up in Telequah, Oklahoma.
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have a scenic river there called the Illinois.
19:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you familiar with it?
19:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
19:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're outfitters who rent canoes and many, many, many thousands of people float down the Illinois canoes every year.
19:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a wonderful experience.
19:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I did that as a kid, of course.
19:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We did the Illinois River cleanups where we would fill our canoe with trash from the previous season early in the spring.
19:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And
19:22
[SPEAKER_01]: just try to take care of it.
19:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, the point of all of this is there are a lot of people.
19:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I married my wife very early in our marriage, we visited Talikwa and I said, let's go canoeing, but it was still winter and so I was just blown away, John, by how beautiful and serene and quiet
19:43
[SPEAKER_01]: and non-crowded that river was, because it was winter time instead of summertime, and we had such a delightful trip, but everyone was shaking their heads at us like, why on earth would you even get near it?
19:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's winter time out there, did anyone show you that, you know, or tell you that?
19:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And what advice do you have for people?
19:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You're considering some of this cold weather, cold water pavilling.
20:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, if it has to be cold weather and cold water in order for you to be able to do it, why then you just need to take all of the precautions, many of which I mentioned, I'm sure that there are resources out there that you can find for specifically for cold water paddling.
20:23
[SPEAKER_02]: The reason I went that early when it was that cold is because over the course of the 740 mile native American canoe trail going watershed to watershed there was a lot of upstream travel 16 miles of it.
20:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I didn't have a lot of flow in the river, and they were too shallow to go up, I would have to carry it up a lot of that.
20:49
[SPEAKER_02]: 160 miles instead of half a mile.
20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm right.
20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Much happier padler than I am a hiker with a boat.
20:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wanted the high water for that, and I also wanted the high water for the white water stretch because if the water got too low, those would be difficult to navigate as well.
21:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And some of them,
21:06
[SPEAKER_02]: there's one the south branch of the dead river in Maine.
21:10
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's too low to paddle it, you're carrying your boat for 20 miles.
21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow.
21:14
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'd much rather paddle 20 miles than, you know, than be dragging my boat down a road for 20 miles.
21:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but it sounds like it requires a little bit of
21:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, different gear experience need to know what you're doing, how to stay safe in cold conditions and wet conditions like you already described with the dry suit and you know all that kind of thing so what you're saying is the skill set matters if you want to try this sort of thing it really does and preparedness both in you know skills and experience and and you also need to pay it
21:45
[SPEAKER_02]: a great deal of attention to hydration because your muscles and your body and your brain only work well when you're hydrated.
21:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And in cold weather you don't tend to drink as much as you do in warmer weather.
21:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a big emphasis and cold weather paddling too.
22:00
[SPEAKER_02]: hydrate more than you think you need in order to be hydrating enough.
22:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, we have a kind of a rule that we use in our back country exploring in the winter time in Colorado here that you look at the color of the snow when you use the restroom.
22:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're changing the color of the snow, you need to drink more water.
22:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if you're writing your name in this snow, that might be a problem.
22:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, definitely.
22:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, fantastic.
22:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it's so beautiful when you're in a pristine place like that.
22:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I always feel like I like it more when I have a buddy with me or my wife with me or one of my kids with me because we can celebrate that beauty together.
22:41
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's something about doing it solo.
22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: That's also magical.
22:45
[SPEAKER_01]: How does that strike you?
22:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you prefer to do it with people or solo or do you like both experiences?
22:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I like both experience.
22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I truly do.
22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I truly do.
22:54
[SPEAKER_02]: When I did this 1500 mile solo expedition, it was such a gift to be able to have the support systems behind me to allow me to be able to do it.
23:06
[SPEAKER_03]: My wife, my friends.
23:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
23:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, all the providers of my, my gear and equipment and, you know, everybody who was supporting me in the endeavor to be able to take 75 days out of your life and just go off into the wilderness on your own and do an adventure like this.
23:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Just a gift.
23:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't happen that often.
23:25
[SPEAKER_02]: If ever.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
23:26
[SPEAKER_02]: In many lifetimes.
23:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So yes.
23:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So I, and in, and I've done a lot of
23:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I love being out there by myself and being in touch with nature and getting in that flow state of just being out there.
23:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Unencumbered by any of the obligations or intrusion of modern life.
23:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean it's very very special.
23:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And on a long trip like this, it's great to have the opportunity to just stop and camp, you know, wherever you're you're you're wanting to.
24:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And also right
24:01
[SPEAKER_02]: going that early.
24:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have competition for campsites, so I literally could camp any place I wanted to camp, which was very, very nice.
24:08
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a real luxury.
24:09
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do like the alone connection with nature.
24:13
[SPEAKER_02]: The ability to share the experience with someone else is very important to me.
24:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And what's interesting when I did this expedition is that I had a website and everybody
24:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I had a garment in reach, explore.
24:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was transmitting every 10 minutes for 75 days.
24:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And people were able to log into the website and watch my travel in real time.
24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And I grew to understand that it was hundreds of people doing that, if not more.
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was getting messages that workplace productivity was in the tank hall.
24:55
[SPEAKER_02]: People were on their computers watching me instead of doing their work.
25:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when, um, and I would do posts along the way, uh, so I would post a social media and I felt like I was sharing the experience with a large following of people.
25:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So I, um, I felt alone, but I didn't feel lonely.
25:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was, that was interesting.
25:18
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a real, that was a real.
25:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me ask you a question about that, feeling alone but not lonely.
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So the last few years I started exploring this part of Colorado on my dual-sport motorcycle, and I ride alone, and sometimes I take a GoPro, and I put it on the helmet, and then I just talk to the people who might eventually watch it.
25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You know?
25:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And then sometimes I leave the GoPro at home.
25:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, and I want to mess with all of that.
25:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to enjoy the ride.
25:44
[SPEAKER_01]: They are so different.
25:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Each ride is so different to me.
25:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know you've done solo things when you weren't heavily connected.
25:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So, can you contrast out that was for you?
25:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, I think when I'm not connected, it's definitely more of a personal experience.
25:59
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, but when I am connected, I'm conscious of the fact that I'm able to share it.
26:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And this expedition in particular, it was an expedition to inspire outdoor desire.
26:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I really wanted to have people.
26:14
[SPEAKER_02]: go along with and experience this and it's one reason why I wrote the book because sharing that experience would inspire more people to get outdoors and in doing so, that gets more people to care about conservation and stewardship and that's been a big driver of my entire career.
26:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that whole ethos?
26:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So...
26:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
26:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
26:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So I liked that little one-liner there too to inspire outdoor desire.
26:40
[SPEAKER_01]: That is cool.
26:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's what the adventurous sports podcast is all about.
26:45
[SPEAKER_01]: From the beginning, we realize the value and encouraging people to connect with nature.
26:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And also,
26:50
[SPEAKER_01]: The physicality of adventure sports means they're being healthier and they're inspired to be healthier.
26:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just the exercise you'd get while you're doing this sport.
26:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's also the thought when you're reaching for that twinkey, well, wait a minute, how's this going to feel on the trail next time I'm out there?
27:05
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and there's something to it for sure, because you become adventure focused, become health-focused, that they kind of come together.
27:13
[SPEAKER_02]: They certainly do, and the healthier you are, the more you're able to enjoy.
27:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And if it's a struggle, it's not fun, so the extent to which you can have your fitness level, not just meet but exceed the level that's going to be required for the activities that you want to do, you're going to enjoy them so much more.
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm hesitating with my wording here, and the reason is because to do a solo experience in what could become hazardous conditions really does require a lot of self-reliance skill,
27:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to encourage people that that experience is out there and it can be wonderful.
27:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, at the same time, maybe saying something along the lines of, you know, eat the elephant one bite at a time, don't bite off more than you can chew, make sure that you've developed your skill set, that sort of thing.
28:04
[SPEAKER_01]: But definitely, I've had some amazing experiences doing solo adventure sports, but it changes the way I behave and my decision making matrix.
28:14
[SPEAKER_01]: you know everything about it changes because because you realize it's all on me right now.
28:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right, absolutely true, absolutely true.
28:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So even on even on an expedition like this where I was connected, I wasn't connected all the time.
28:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I did a lot of posting on to bring people along with me, but I really didn't do much in the way of GoPro video.
28:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And quite honestly, it's kind of funny because people say,
28:41
[SPEAKER_02]: We know that you were in eight to ten foot seas on the bold cause of the thing.
28:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
28:47
[SPEAKER_02]: But there are no photos.
28:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like.
28:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
28:50
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
28:51
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
28:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to just sit here for a little while, pull out my camera.
28:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Take a shot.
28:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
29:01
[SPEAKER_02]: So there are a lot of times where, you know, I'd needed to be by myself and be wholly focused on making good on the promise of not dying out there and, you know, successfully executing what I needed to execute in the moment.
29:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.
29:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So I had plenty of plenty of time out there when I was,
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: when I was alone, but yes, it's like, you know, one bite at a time don't try to eat the whole thing.
29:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So, John, I'm getting a message here that says that you have other Riverside tabs open on your end.
29:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It says to close them.
29:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you see that or not.
29:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I saw that early on and I closed all of them.
29:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so it's just an old message.
29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to ignore that.
29:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I put a timestamp here so that I can clean this up.
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I love what Riverside is trying to do.
29:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And I worried it that way on purpose.
29:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we'll continue.
29:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
29:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So the main island trail, I did not know about this trail until just this year.
30:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I found out about it.
30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It just wasn't in my purview, but that's the second half of this trip.
30:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wish we had time to go into more and more detail, but I really want to move along so that we can hear more of the saga.
30:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so you just mentioned really big seas.
30:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And now you're in a sea kayak, not a canoe,
30:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, so in Grand Falls, New Brunswick, my incredible wife Nicole met me, and she brought my sea kayak in my sea kayak equipment for me, and she took my Winona Voyager canoe back home.
30:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I switched after the first 800 miles I switched from the open canoe to the sea kayak, the stellar S18R.
30:46
[SPEAKER_02]: sea kayak and for the for the reversing falls and St. John New Brunswick on the St. John River and for you know the white water that that entails and also for all of the open ocean paddling I really needed to be in a decked boat not an open canoe and so I did all of the traditional canoeing in a traditional canoe
31:07
[SPEAKER_02]: and then I switched over to the C kayak.
31:09
[SPEAKER_02]: So when I entered the Bay of Fundy, it was at the spring high tide of 29 feet.
31:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
31:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is, that's a, that's a big rise in fall of the tide in each tide cycle.
31:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That is huge.
31:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
31:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that causes an awful lot of water to empt and coming out of the St. John River down the reversing falls into the Bay of Fundy.
31:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So the reversing falls were very exciting to say.
31:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had I had some local New Brunswick friends paddling with me and a friend from me and paddling with me so
31:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Paddling with people who know that section of river really, really well, know at what point in the tide cycle to be paddling.
31:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And being there to help rescue each other is really important.
31:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So I did not swallow a paddle that section.
31:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And it, like I say, it was very exciting.
31:59
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, lots of boils, big waves, whirlpools, and quite memorable.
32:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, going down the Bay of Fundy with that same 29-foot rise and fall of the tide,
32:11
[SPEAKER_02]: that creates tidal rapids where there are rocks and reefs and other structures beneath the surface and all that water is moving.
32:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's pretty exciting.
32:19
[SPEAKER_02]: But then once you get through the Bay of Fundy and where I have an awful lot of fog also in the Bay of Fundy.
32:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh no.
32:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Taurus for that.
32:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And pretty close call with a salmon aquaculture net system.
32:37
[SPEAKER_02]: and some wears and some things like that.
32:39
[SPEAKER_02]: But once I got to the main island trail and started along the bold coast of Maine, there are vertical-faced towering cliffs that go straight down to the water and the surface of the bottoms of the cliff.
32:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And it actually been pinned down there for a couple of days waiting for storms to abate and then continued.
33:01
[SPEAKER_02]: So not only
33:02
[SPEAKER_02]: do you have the big swells coming from the ocean but you also have the current which is going to still get another direct creating different types of waves and then you have the reflection waves off the bottoms of the cliffs right i mean in the opposite direction of the ocean swell
33:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It was very bumpy.
33:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And over the course of paddling the main coast, I experienced everything from glassy flat water where the ocean meets the sky and you can't discern the difference between the two and you get vertical.
33:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
33:34
[SPEAKER_02]: All that.
33:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And eight to ten foot ocean swells and reflection waves off of cliffs.
33:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I had to say that, but now, and everything in between.
33:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So how stable was your C.K.I.A.?
33:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Were you doing a lot of bracing to keep it topside?
33:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I really didn't do any survival braces and I never had to roll.
33:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm actually have an uncanny sense of right side up.
34:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a good thing to have.
34:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, it truly is.
34:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It truly is.
34:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I credit a lot of playboating and white water boats to sure do that.
34:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, so my kayaks actually not a very, not a terribly stable kayak either.
34:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's made by stellar kayaks and surfs.
34:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's their 18-foot surfs, which is 18 feet is long and is narrow.
34:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's incredibly fast, okay?
34:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a surf ski, but a surf ski has a curve,
34:29
[SPEAKER_02]: a concave bucket seat, and it's a sit on top, and it's made for doing downwind paddling, open ocean swell, and that's what it's done.
34:41
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not very stable, but it's really fast.
34:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
34:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So this particular sea kayak is their surf ski hull with a compartmentalized closed deck on top of it, where you use a spray skirt.
34:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
34:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Hardmenalyze, it looks just like it's a sea kayak with a surf ski hull.
34:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it really is super fast, super fast.
35:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it sounds like it'd be a lot of fun, too.
35:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was.
35:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
35:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is paddling those.
35:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you have all of your expedition in your boat, your boat is a little on the heavy side, which also helps make it a little less twitchy and makes it more stable.
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes it a little ballast.
35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Or?
35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: As long as you put the weight at the bottom.
35:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
35:20
[SPEAKER_02]: and keep your head over your butt in that way.
35:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, side, right.
35:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
35:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So contrast for us, if you would, the difference between the extended river journey and the getting on the salt water and doing the salt water journey.
35:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in both cases you're on water and yeah, one salty and one's not, but rivers and oceans are not the same thing.
35:43
[SPEAKER_01]: How is the
35:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the experience is very, very different.
35:48
[SPEAKER_02]: The rivers on the northern forest canoe trail and even on the St. John is more of an intimate experience.
35:53
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're not far from the shoreline at all.
35:56
[SPEAKER_02]: The open lakes, the open lakes,
35:59
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, for the northern forest canoe trail, there are 22 rivers and streams, but there are also 56 lakes and ponds.
36:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So some of those lakes are actually quite large, like Lake Champlain, the borders of New York and Vermont and goes up into Quebec.
36:15
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's a pretty big lake.
36:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Mooseheadland Sea.
36:19
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, it's absolutely an inland sea.
36:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Moosehead Lake and Maine, 40 miles long and 20 miles wide.
36:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's giant.
36:29
[SPEAKER_02]: blizzard in, that's a pretty big lake, but even with those lakes, you have the option of paddling along the shoreline and on the leeward side, so you don't have to be exposed to the wave.
36:42
[SPEAKER_02]: On the ocean, you don't have that luxury.
36:45
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're too close to the shoreline, you're too near the surf zone, and that can be treacherous, because often that's where it's more shallow,
36:58
[SPEAKER_02]: if you're too far off shore and the wind is blowing in the wrong direction is blowing out to sea, if anything goes wrong, you know, you could be you could be headed toward Portugal, so there's the consequence of that, so there is a really big difference, and also just in terms of expedition travel, when you're in when
37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: in freshwater, you can filter your water for drinking water.
37:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sure.
37:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
37:29
[SPEAKER_02]: When you're on the ocean, it's salt water, and you can't filter.
37:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to carry all of your freshwater with you.
37:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's additional weight in the boat.
37:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're able to anticipate where you're going to be able to stop to resupply your water, and dish into your food.
37:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there are a couple of key things.
37:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Two different skill sets.
37:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
37:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And on the inland waters, all the predators are on shore, not on the water.
37:53
[SPEAKER_01]: you know on the on the ocean a lot of the predators are on the water not on the water with you You know I was just thinking this I think last night actually we we were up in the same one islands and we were lucky enough to see a whale leap out of the water do one of the
38:12
[SPEAKER_01]: the beautiful spy hops or whatever they call it.
38:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I thought about being in a sea kayak.
38:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And if the will got curious and decided to jump out of the water too close to me, what that would be like.
38:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a terrifying thought.
38:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if something that big hits on top of you are right beside you, wow.
38:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, beside you is better.
38:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
38:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll go with that.
38:35
[SPEAKER_01]: This sounds good.
38:37
[SPEAKER_02]: At least then you have it.
38:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you have a chance, you know, to roll back up or get back in your boat, but yeah.
38:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So on the North Atlantic in Maine, I had left Black Island.
38:51
[SPEAKER_02]: in Muskonga's Bay and it was first thing in the morning.
38:54
[SPEAKER_02]: The sun had just peaked over the horizon and I like to get up early and get going before the wind comes up.
39:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're paddling on the commas part of the day.
39:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And so just as the sun comes up I'm on the water and I'm headed
39:11
[SPEAKER_02]: For me and pass right off of my bow and look at me.
39:16
[SPEAKER_02]: They go by and I got goosebumps I mean, it was it was incredible and right behind them was a pot of harbor harbor port really and they check me out too Everyone's curious.
39:28
[SPEAKER_02]: It was magical experience.
39:30
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like you know Living a part of a net geo episode
39:34
[SPEAKER_02]: It was normal.
39:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
39:37
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so special.
39:38
[SPEAKER_02]: But luckily, they did jump out of the water and you over.
39:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it would be a super rare occurrence I would think, but is that something that you need to worry about?
39:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's something that definitely think about.
39:50
[SPEAKER_02]: You do see videos of people getting too close to feeding whales.
39:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like when they're, when they're bubble netting and they're feeding and you get too close.
40:03
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, and you can actually get in their way and, you know, so that's not good.
40:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You just need to just be careful to keep your distance, a respectful distance, and usually it works out just fine.
40:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Done a lot of paddling with whales in Baja and off California and off of Maine and in the Sea of Cortez.
40:23
[SPEAKER_02]: all over the place and we haven't had any close calls and just need to keep a respectful distance and it's all good.
40:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh good, good.
40:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we need to talk about some of the other locations that you paddled.
40:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this story.
40:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Your 1500 miles, dying out there is not an option as the book came out in 2016, is that right?
40:41
[SPEAKER_02]: That is correct.
40:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, as 75-day 1500-mile expedition, wonderful people get the book because we barely scratched the surface.
40:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's another book.
40:51
[SPEAKER_01]: We really need to hear about this one.
40:52
[SPEAKER_01]: As it's smaller expedition, but completely different setting.
40:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is one that Mason, you know, the prior host to the Adventure Sports Podcast talks quite a bit about canoeing in Florida.
41:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And he likes to take
41:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, if we're going to die, it's probably here, Florida Everglades, this book just came out.
41:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was 174 mile 8 day trip.
41:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell us about that one.
41:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I had wanted to do some trips in the Everglades.
41:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And my wife and I, we, for a short period of time, we lived on.
41:29
[SPEAKER_02]: island in southwest Florida.
41:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Fine.
41:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we lived on Pine Island, which is right across from Santa Bel Island.
41:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And we look straight across Santa Carlos Bay at Ding Darling National Wildlife Refuge.
41:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was an amazing place to live for paddling in the sea and for going to beaches and for fishing for tarpen and other sport fish.
41:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It was actually pretty amazing.
41:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And as the crow flies, only 50 miles from the Everglades.
41:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
41:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're the Everglades begin.
41:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So my wife and I made an attempt at doing a week-long paddle on the Gulf side of the Everglades National Park going down the Gulf of Mexico from Everglades City to Flamingo.
42:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And we were going to take five or six days to do that nice leisurely trip.
42:16
[SPEAKER_02]: But on the very first night we had an unproductive storm come and with 30, 35
42:24
[SPEAKER_02]: sideways, blowing rain, really changed our plans because our tent failed and all of our a lot of our gear got wet forecast because this was January.
42:37
[SPEAKER_02]: The forecast was for some the upcoming nights in the high 40s and we had wet gear.
42:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not good.
42:44
[SPEAKER_02]: We said, well, if it's starting out this way, it's probably a message that we should just go home and try this another
42:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So, we went home.
42:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So, fast forward, I really wanted to paddle the Everglades.
42:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And I wanted to see all of it, and...
43:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
43:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And the Everglades is very, you know, because a lot of people think of the Everglades as just being a swamp with a lot of alligators and a few of them.
43:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But it has all of that, but it has more because the whole length of the Everglade borders the gulf of Mexico and Florida Bay.
43:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's all salt water.
43:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's all white sand beet, island called key, and it's really very beautiful.
43:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are balinos, dolphins, and there are manate, and yes, there are saltwater crocodiles also, but it's very different than the inland portion of the Everglades, which is fresh.
43:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It's some of its brackish waters, mostly fresh water, and there are more alligators than there are saltwater crocodiles, and it's mostly mangroves with no white sand beaches, and no place really to go to shore, or very few places to go to shore.
43:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
43:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So, for the very different experience,
44:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to experience both parts of the park and the Everglades.
44:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So I recruited my adventure paddling buddy from New Brunswick, Canada, Adam Tromble, who paddled with me through the reversing falls and who runs work on my paddle quest trip, my 1500.
44:18
[SPEAKER_02]: mile trip and we've done a lot of paddling so we we went to the Everglades together and we paddled tandem open canoe and put all of a year began in Everglades city which is to the north and west in the Everglades and we paddled down the Gulf of Mexico and went all the way down to Flamingo
44:37
[SPEAKER_02]: which is the southernmost point of the park and then we took the inland waterways called the wilderness waterway and came up the inside through all of the mangroves and the many, many creeks rivers, ponds and lakes that that involves.
44:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And so round trip it's 174 miles and we did it over the course of eight days but we got to see the whole thing and it was
45:02
[SPEAKER_02]: That's nice.
45:03
[SPEAKER_02]: What a beautiful place.
45:04
[SPEAKER_02]: You need your resource.
45:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.
45:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's it like paddling with saltwater crocodiles and alligators?
45:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you see a lot or was it just always a presence in the back of your mind?
45:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, an interesting thing happened, there was a storm that was predicted to come through.
45:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was going to be a significant front coming through.
45:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And we saw that a couple days into our plan trip, we were going to be pinned down for a weather day.
45:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And we made the conscious decision to instead of getting pinned down, say on a remote beach somewhere for a couple of days, though we would instead go ahead and do twice the mileage in one of the days and get it all the way to Flamingo.
45:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So doing a three day trip in just two days.
45:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
45:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's what we plan to do.
45:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And when we got down to a critical decision point at toward the south end of the Everglade, around Cape Sable, the wind really came up.
46:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And the waves were just too big.
46:12
[SPEAKER_02]: and the wave periods were too short for us to be able to navigate it with the open canoe.
46:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So we had to bail on going all the way around Cape Sable backtrack and taking alternative route which is actually inland through Lake Ingram.
46:27
[SPEAKER_02]: In Lake Ingram actually just cuts off the end of Cape Sable.
46:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So you go up, you go through Lake Ingram and you come out to where you would have wound up,
46:39
[SPEAKER_02]: but you still have miles to go to get to Flammage.
46:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course it's where there's a visitor center for the park and there are accommodations in a restaurant in a campground.
46:49
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
46:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've we've preferred to overnight there on and and spend our layover day for weather at that location rather than a remote location.
46:59
[SPEAKER_02]: What we didn't realize was that Lake Ingraham is very, very title, and it was emptying while we were paddling up it, and this was late in the day.
47:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And we started into Lake Ingraham at about five o'clock in the evening, and it is also very, very shallow.
47:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And the mud on the bottom is incredibly viscous, so if you, and it has kind of a serpentine channel through it,
47:23
[SPEAKER_02]: but if you try to cut a corner to make your root shorter and get to where you want to go quicker more quickly you wind up in shallow water and the mud is so viscous that it sticks to your paddling you can't even paddle with so you have to stick to the deep channel okay in the current in the current in the full throat alright absolutely yeah and we finally made it all the way up to the
47:50
[SPEAKER_02]: the inlet of Lake Anger Ham, and we saw that there were thunderstorms off to over the keys, over the Florida key to our south and east, and we saw that there were rain showers that looked like they might be coming our way.
48:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So we pulled over on a
48:09
[SPEAKER_02]: little muddy bank and put on our paddling jackets in case we got the rain and by that time it was really starting to get dark.
48:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So as we're pulling out to head up into the narrow channel that feeds the lake that's coming from Florida Bay, fairly large bullshark.
48:26
[SPEAKER_02]: surfaces right next to our boat, and we see it really.
48:29
[SPEAKER_02]: It rolls next to our canoe and kind of looks at us and then sounds into the murk.
48:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was kind of the beginning, the narrow, more forested, mangrove section of narrow waterway that we would be entering to then get out to floor to bay and on to.
48:53
[SPEAKER_02]: flamingo.
48:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're paddling along and it is completely dark and something launches off the shoreline.
49:01
[SPEAKER_02]: to our life and it was really big and it was really close.
49:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Clearly we were coming just around a little point where it was resting and it launched itself and and crocodiles and alligators, they find safety in the water.
49:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're between where they're on land and the water, they'll come straight at you to get in the water.
49:22
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not charging you, they're not attacking.
49:24
[SPEAKER_02]: They're just seeking safety and you're kind of in the way.
49:27
[SPEAKER_02]: So the wake from this animal,
49:29
[SPEAKER_02]: which had to have been over 12 feet long, was enough of a wake to rock our canoe, and that was our introduction to that section of our paddle, and it's a little ominous John's.
49:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We kept, and of course, we wanted to use our night vision so we had our headlamps off, right?
49:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we couldn't see if we were being watched, but boy, did we feel like we were being watched?
49:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you probably were, oh, 100% certain we were.
50:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the next day, when we got to Flamingo, we went to Flamingo Adventures where they have a
50:09
[SPEAKER_02]: a kayak rental, and they do guided kayaking out of there, and they also rentals of other boats.
50:15
[SPEAKER_02]: We were talking to the guides, and we wanted to get some intelligence about what lies ahead on our route, you know, about the inland waterway, the wilderness waterway, and you know, learned something about that.
50:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, and we just told them, yeah, yeah, we got in last night.
50:30
[SPEAKER_02]: After a really long day paddle, it was 17 and a half hours of paddling.
50:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And we got in at 10 30 at night, and they said, oh, so you've already been down the wilderness waterway.
50:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And we said, no, no, no, we came through Lake Engraham and they had a jaws dropped and they looked at them.
50:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, you did, what not at night?
50:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And we said, oh, yeah, sure.
50:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And we just like, it was something that is done, right?
50:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
50:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And they said, that's Jurassic Park.
50:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody was there at night.
50:59
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where the dinosaurs live.
51:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and they proceeded to tell us about saltwater crocodiles up to 14 feet long and Wow got a distance and I was like, oh boy, you know, so we just kind of add them and I shot each other a glance like I'm gosh I guess we dodged a bullet.
51:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
51:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it is crazy.
51:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Jurassic Park is I mean, that's the right word for it.
51:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Alligators crocodiles did live with the dinosaurs.
51:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And latest research I heard says the reason they're still with this is because they were cold-blooded.
51:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't need as much food.
51:33
[SPEAKER_01]: They could just go long periods of time with a very slow metabolism and they didn't starve to death in bad climate change.
51:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So they made it through what the dinosaurs couldn't, and that's why they're still with us.
51:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's the real deal.
51:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, John, you know, I I could talk to you for another hour.
51:52
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be a lot of fun, but we're we're really running out of time here.
51:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you leave us with the why?
51:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do this?
51:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Why has it been meaningful to you?
52:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Why what do you think it's valuable for other?
52:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I've always just found this.
52:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I found more connection outdoors and then
52:07
[SPEAKER_02]: like in the big cities.
52:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I just gravitate toward wild environment and I love the water in particular because I think it's just the most fantastic way to travel through remote places and see things that a lot of people just don't get an opportunity to see and experience things that most people don't have an opportunity to experience and I find spiritual grounding in those endeavors and
52:35
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think that at my core, you know, I'm most comfortable out there.
52:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
52:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and that's why, and that's why I see, and I believe that because it's so enriching for me that to share it with other is huge.
52:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I may be the reason that somebody discovers that that's a happy place for them as well.
52:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
52:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, you know, I began my white water raft guiding career in 1974.
53:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm still whitewater afgite.
53:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've made a career of getting people into the outdoors.
53:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are just incredibly valuable experiences.
53:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's fantastic.
53:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we really need to have you back on because there's so many more stories I'm sure.
53:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And we didn't even talk about your whitewater afgiting.
53:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't talk about your whitewater kayaking.
53:22
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't talk about, you know, all the other things.
53:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But hey, you have gifted the planet with two books.
53:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and these two books can help people to live vicariously through you and maybe they serve as an invitation like you said Maybe someone else will find there meaningful and happy place out there too.
53:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So the second book is if we're going to die It's probably here, and that's the book about the Florida Everglades trip and the first book was dying out there is not an option
53:51
[SPEAKER_01]: about the canoeing and sea kayaking trip.
53:53
[SPEAKER_01]: John, it's also cool you're doing some good things with these two books by giving part of the proceeds to some nonprofits.
54:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you explain what those are?
54:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely.
54:04
[SPEAKER_02]: For dying out here is not an option about my 1500 miles solo.
54:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Kunun Kayake Expedition.
54:09
[SPEAKER_02]: There are two non-profits that benefit from a portion of the sales.
54:13
[SPEAKER_02]: One is called the Northern Forest Canutrail, which is an organization that has formalized that 740 mile paddling trail and created guidebooks and maps, and they also maintain day use overnight sites along the way.
54:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So they provide resources for people who want to
54:36
[SPEAKER_02]: There's that, and then also the main island trail associated.
54:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And what the main island trail association does is it maintains days and overnight sites and provides guide resources also for people who want to enjoy the main coast and utilize those mainland and island sites.
54:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And then for my book about the Everglade, if we're going to die, it's probably here.
55:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Friends of the Everglade.
55:01
[SPEAKER_02]: benefits from a portion of the sales of that book.
55:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And their mission is the conservationist stewardship of Florida's Everglades.
55:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, cool.
55:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you for doing that.
55:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's such a neat thing when people get behind a cause that matters.
55:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And the Everglades such an amazing magical place.
55:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So a few places like it on Earth, I think it's certainly a treasure worth taking care of.
55:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, thanks for doing that.
55:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, thank you.
55:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, well for all the listeners out there I see this every show, aren't almost every show, find your own adventure whatever it is and get out there and have some fun.