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Marx and Moody: What the Church Left Undone (Gregg Quiggle) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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Speaker 1: I'm Doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking
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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world
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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that
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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to
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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody, welcome to this
0:29
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer and I'm
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Speaker 1: joined today by one of our recurring guests and friends,
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Speaker 1: doctor Greg Quiggle. I'm really excited to have him on
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Speaker 1: the program today to talk about a new book that
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Speaker 1: he has written with Pastor Irwin Lutzer, Marx and Moody,
0:44
Speaker 1: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones, One Choice, and that
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Speaker 1: just actually released yesterday. But from what Greg and I
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Speaker 1: talked about in the pre show recording, even in pre
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Speaker 1: it was tracking really well on Amazon, and so excited
1:03
Speaker 1: for you, man, this is great.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice to write something that somebody might actually
1:09
Speaker 2: read for a change.
1:10
Speaker 1: That's normally the goal I just haven't had it happen yet.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's being of academic existence.
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Speaker 1: Well, this book's really interesting because I'm not exactly sure
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Speaker 1: that people would immediately put Marx and Moody together. So
1:28
Speaker 1: why don't we start there? What was the conception of
1:32
Speaker 1: Marx and Moody in this comparison?
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Speaker 2: Well, first off, most people probably don't know that their
1:38
Speaker 2: lives overlapped by a little over forty years. So they
1:43
Speaker 2: are contemporaries. These are not people that lived in radically
1:47
Speaker 2: different places and times. Now it is true, they come
1:52
Speaker 2: from quite different backgrounds. Karl Marx's Jew German converts to
1:58
Speaker 2: Lutheranism and then eventually jettisons any sort of Christianity at all.
2:07
Speaker 2: He is highly educated and is given opportunities that Dwight
2:14
Speaker 2: Moody will never see. Moody, by comparison, is born in
2:18
Speaker 2: rural Massachusetts, has maybe five or six years of formal education.
2:25
Speaker 2: He grows up basically fatherless. His dad dies when he's four,
2:31
Speaker 2: in really rank poverty. So they come from really different worlds,
2:37
Speaker 2: but they share a common world in this sense. Both
2:43
Speaker 2: of their lives will ultimately be focused on the emerging
2:49
Speaker 2: urban center, so industrialization, immigration, all these sorts of things
2:56
Speaker 2: that are going to pour into what we sometimes refer
2:59
Speaker 2: to as Gilded Age with the rise of the Rockefellers
3:06
Speaker 2: and the Vanderbilts and folks like this Carnegie and all
3:12
Speaker 2: that happens as a part of that. Really are the
3:16
Speaker 2: worlds in which they both inhabit. Mark spends a good
3:20
Speaker 2: portion of his time in London. Moody will also be
3:23
Speaker 2: in London. So although they are one is American and
3:28
Speaker 2: one is European, they do have common experiences in terms
3:33
Speaker 2: of seeing the impact of industrialization, urbanization, immigration on these
3:40
Speaker 2: massive urban centers.
3:44
Speaker 1: One of the things that strikes me between, you know,
3:46
Speaker 1: in the contrast between Marx and Moody is the difference
3:50
Speaker 1: in the backgrounds. So you know, we talked we've talked
3:53
Speaker 1: about Moody before, where Moody has you know, more of
3:56
Speaker 1: a fifth grade level of education before he goes off
3:59
Speaker 1: to help his family. Marx is schooled like he has
4:04
Speaker 1: academic training. He's captured by the philosophy of Hegel, very
4:08
Speaker 1: much involved with rethinking Hegel's dialectic. It's i would say,
4:15
Speaker 1: one of the three big sort of influences on him.
4:20
Speaker 1: He's also looking at sort of a theory of history,
4:23
Speaker 1: and you know the critique of political economy, but so
4:27
Speaker 1: much of that is grounded in Hegelian philosophy, which produces
4:31
Speaker 1: this dialectic right of pull and push. We might say,
4:36
Speaker 1: we don't have to go too far into Hagel, but
4:38
Speaker 1: just to underscore the point that they are coming at
4:40
Speaker 1: this from two very different vantage points, even though they're
4:43
Speaker 1: intersecting in time. Marx is a much more studied person
4:49
Speaker 1: than Moody. Moody is not ignorant by any stretch of
4:53
Speaker 1: the imagination, but he's not interacting with the academic tomes
4:57
Speaker 1: in the same way or that Marx is.
5:00
Speaker 2: No if you walked up to Dwight Moody and said,
5:04
Speaker 2: explain Hegalianism, he would probably laugh and say, let's go
5:10
Speaker 2: for a ride in the cart or something. Moody is
5:14
Speaker 2: a concrete, practical thinker. He's a farmer at heart to
5:21
Speaker 2: some extent. Marx is theoretical and philosophical. So one is
5:30
Speaker 2: looking at it from a kind of a bottom common
5:35
Speaker 2: man perspective. The other one, although his work is focused
5:41
Speaker 2: on the plight of the common man, is addressing it
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Speaker 2: from a theeal, theoretical, philosophical perspective.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think at that time, you know, you
5:57
Speaker 1: have Hegel, who obviously does some things with God, although
6:00
Speaker 1: his later students really push back on that aspect of
6:04
Speaker 1: his philosophy. They feel like it gives too much away.
6:08
Speaker 1: And so you also have a gentleman named Feuerbach who
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Speaker 1: would have argued that religion is self alienation, human self alienation.
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Speaker 1: It's keeping us from realizing who we truly are, in
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Speaker 1: other words, and so you have these two very different philosophies.
6:27
Speaker 1: Because Moody as uneducated, his lack of formal education does
6:32
Speaker 1: not leave him ignorant of scripture. And so for Moody
6:36
Speaker 1: it's going to be no, we find our true humanness,
6:39
Speaker 1: although I doubt he'd ever say it that way, we
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Speaker 1: find our true humanness in following Jesus Christ. Whereas for
6:45
Speaker 1: Marx it's no, religion is sort of the opiate of
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Speaker 1: the masses. It's keeping people dull and numb and keeping
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Speaker 1: them from understanding what true humanness looks like. And so
6:55
Speaker 1: for him, religion is an obstacle. For Moody, religion really
6:58
Speaker 1: is specif particular Christianity is the solution.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. So not only that Moody believes in life after death.
7:10
Speaker 2: He believes in the eternal, so he is not interested
7:16
Speaker 2: in just addressing the current and the secular. He's also
7:23
Speaker 2: interested in preparing people for the next life while addressing
7:31
Speaker 2: the plights they find themselves in in this life. But
7:36
Speaker 2: since he believes in the eternal, he prioritizes the eternal. Now.
7:43
Speaker 2: What is unique is what Moody does is he refuses
7:54
Speaker 2: to use the eternal as an excuse to not address
8:01
Speaker 2: the temporal, or the secular, or the concrete or this life. Now.
8:07
Speaker 2: He prioritizes them, but he does not in any way,
8:13
Speaker 2: shape or form, make one important to the exclusion of
8:19
Speaker 2: the other. Marx isn't interested in that. Marx's concrete materialism,
8:27
Speaker 2: this is it, and so he's not into and so
8:33
Speaker 2: thus his comment, it's the opiate for the masses. Oh,
8:37
Speaker 2: people use the idea of the eternal as a way
8:40
Speaker 2: to justify or make them able to oppress people. It'll
8:47
Speaker 2: get fixed in the next life, don't worry about it.
8:51
Speaker 2: That is certainly not what Moody is saying, But he's
8:56
Speaker 2: also saying it it will get fixed in the next life.
9:00
Speaker 2: But that doesn't let us off the biblical hook to
9:05
Speaker 2: address this life as well.
9:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's an interesting dichotomy here because Marx obviously moves
9:12
Speaker 1: more towards socialism where there's going to be I suppose
9:17
Speaker 1: the more popular way to understand it, and I'm sure
9:19
Speaker 1: it's more nuanced than this, but I'm just going to
9:21
Speaker 1: say it advance our conversation. Socialism there is no real ownership.
9:26
Speaker 1: Everybody shares everything in common, and so there's a redistribution
9:30
Speaker 1: of wealth across society. The socialism. For Moody, he's not
9:36
Speaker 1: advancing socialism, but he is redistributing wealth, primarily his wealth
9:42
Speaker 1: and the wealth that is given to him. And he's
9:45
Speaker 1: doing that as he sees needs everywhere. And so there's
9:49
Speaker 1: a sense of odd resonance there in the sense that
9:53
Speaker 1: both care about this sort of redistribution, both see the
9:58
Speaker 1: inequities in society and seek to address them. Rudy from
10:03
Speaker 1: a very much a love of God, and then you know,
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Speaker 1: sort of that emerging as love of neighbor, Mark seemingly
10:11
Speaker 1: from more of a sense of what I would And
10:15
Speaker 1: this may be too generous, but I would say like
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Speaker 1: a deep sense of justice that is misguided by his
10:22
Speaker 1: unwillingness to contemplate God.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, he's utterly naive about the state. His idea
10:32
Speaker 2: that yes, there is no ownership. Everything is owned by
10:38
Speaker 2: the state. So the state then becomes the arbitra and
10:44
Speaker 2: the one that redistributes, and YadA, YadA, YadA. Well, you know,
10:51
Speaker 2: name a state in the history of the world that
10:56
Speaker 2: acted justly towards all its people. I mean, why should
11:01
Speaker 2: I believe that the state is going to behave anymore
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Speaker 2: with any more charity than the capitalist All that does
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Speaker 2: is allow those who are in power in the state.
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Speaker 2: And all you have to do is look at the
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Speaker 2: communist states under the old Soviet Union. Yes, the workers
11:28
Speaker 2: got YadA, YadA, YadA, but don't think for a minute
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Speaker 2: that the members of the High members of the polit
11:35
Speaker 2: bureau weren't living high on a hog. They absolutely were,
11:40
Speaker 2: excuse they had all kinds of fancy cars, you know,
11:46
Speaker 2: better food, better clothing, vacation places. So what was the
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Speaker 2: difference between Leonie Brezhneff and Rockefeller. Frankly nothing because he
12:05
Speaker 2: had all this stuff because he was the head of
12:08
Speaker 2: the state in that sense. So there's a kind of
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Speaker 2: naivete there. And the other thing that Moody would say
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Speaker 2: is Christians are under an obligation to act justly. If
12:31
Speaker 2: you're a Christian and you own a business, pay your
12:35
Speaker 2: people properly, treat your workers with respect. Now he's going
12:46
Speaker 2: to get criticized for not saying that enough, and frankly,
12:50
Speaker 2: that is probably fair early in his career. But you
12:54
Speaker 2: talked about Moody growing and his understanding. One of the
12:57
Speaker 2: things that we see as he gets older, as he
12:59
Speaker 2: begins to say, this is not right the way that
13:03
Speaker 2: people are treating workers. This is wrong, and the Bible
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Speaker 2: teaches that we're not supposed to treat people this way.
13:14
Speaker 2: What's interesting is, and it's outside of the realm of
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Speaker 2: this book, but in the Catholic Church they are developing
13:24
Speaker 2: Catholic social thought, and this is where we get ideas
13:28
Speaker 2: like minimum wage et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Because
13:32
Speaker 2: it's a matter of justice. For Moody, it's a matter
13:38
Speaker 2: of charity. Love God loves me. I'm undeserving. I am
13:46
Speaker 2: obligated to love my neighbor and make sure that he
13:53
Speaker 2: is appropriately rewarded for his labor. And those who, through
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Speaker 2: no fault of their own, are unable to labor must
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Speaker 2: be taken care of. And he did that practically all
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Speaker 2: the time.
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Speaker 1: Do you see in Moody's thaw, Greg So, when he's
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Speaker 1: talking about that and we're talking about Christian charity, we're
14:17
Speaker 1: seeing him sort of advocate for these things, particularly as
14:21
Speaker 1: you said later in life. I remember something about the
14:25
Speaker 1: trusts that were being set up for children, you know,
14:28
Speaker 1: making sure that your children had you know, so much.
14:31
Speaker 1: But his comment was, you know, don't make you know,
14:34
Speaker 1: you're you're setting them up financially, but you're also setting
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Speaker 1: them up for spiritual ruin, like they still need to work.
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Speaker 1: This is an important aspect of society. And so there
14:42
Speaker 1: was that ethos about him. But was he speaking more
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Speaker 1: to the broad general sort of system or is he
14:50
Speaker 1: speaking to Christians within that system or was it just
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Speaker 1: a little bit of both. I think either way, I
14:55
Speaker 1: you know, I'm interested to sort of think that through
14:58
Speaker 1: in relation to marks.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little of both. I think if you
15:06
Speaker 2: I think Moody would say there is nothing wrong with
15:13
Speaker 2: being rich as long as your gain is not done
15:21
Speaker 2: in an unjust manner, and then you are obligated to
15:29
Speaker 2: plow that back into those who are less fortunate. Now
15:37
Speaker 2: he has no time for people who are lazy. That
15:41
Speaker 2: that's right, That no way that ain't happening. But for
15:48
Speaker 2: people that work hard, particularly wives and children. What he
15:58
Speaker 2: did during the course of his entire life was raised
16:04
Speaker 2: money from wealthy people to provide social services we would
16:08
Speaker 2: call them, for these people. And he saw that as
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Speaker 2: a correct reading of the Bible. That's what the Bible teaches,
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Speaker 2: that we care for those who cannot care for themselves.
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Speaker 2: The rich must care for the poor, as long as
16:31
Speaker 2: the poor are actually working.
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Speaker 1: I remember something, and we'll see if you remember this
16:40
Speaker 1: or if I'm just totally misremembering it about dial Moody.
16:44
Speaker 1: He had given a critique of what I believe or
16:46
Speaker 1: called mission churches. And his part of his comment, and
16:51
Speaker 1: this is going somewhere back to, you know, sort of
16:53
Speaker 1: the comparison between Moody and Marks. But as I recall it,
16:57
Speaker 1: his critique was that these rich churches, we're sending money
17:02
Speaker 1: sort of across the pond, you know, across the tracks,
17:05
Speaker 1: we might say, I guess, to these poorer churches and
17:09
Speaker 1: these poorer individuals. And mister Moody gave this critique, and
17:12
Speaker 1: he said, why don't you just go over there and
17:13
Speaker 1: give them a ride in your carriage? Why aren't you
17:16
Speaker 1: engaging more specifically with yes. And so while we talk
17:19
Speaker 1: a lot and appropriately talk a lot about Moody sort
17:23
Speaker 1: of taking this creating these social services through the wealthy
17:27
Speaker 1: donations from the wealthy, I think it's also really crucial
17:31
Speaker 1: to highlight the fact that Moody never intended to keep
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Speaker 1: the rich away from the poor or vice versa, that
17:38
Speaker 1: he viewed this as part of this whole complex that
17:42
Speaker 1: he's looking at is saying, no, we need to be
17:44
Speaker 1: with each other. Yes, there isn't a rich poor aspect
17:49
Speaker 1: of this.
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Speaker 2: That is absolutely correct, James, and thank you for bringing
17:54
Speaker 2: that up. Moody did not think that just giving money
18:02
Speaker 2: away was all that God required. He required us to
18:09
Speaker 2: be engaged practically, face to face, you know, flesh on
18:16
Speaker 2: flesh kind of engagement with each other. I think that's
18:22
Speaker 2: one of the reasons he was so moved by the YMCA,
18:26
Speaker 2: because one of the things the YMCA did was it
18:30
Speaker 2: brought business men into the why to help young men
18:38
Speaker 2: who were immigrating to cities and masses, to give lectures, talks,
18:45
Speaker 2: you know, teaching them, hey, here's how you do this,
18:48
Speaker 2: here's how you do that, so that it wasn't just
18:51
Speaker 2: a matter of here's ten bucks. It was life to life.
18:58
Speaker 2: I think that's a term, you know, life on life
19:01
Speaker 2: evangelism or life on life discipleship, that you need to
19:06
Speaker 2: engage with these people as people. They're not horses. You
19:11
Speaker 2: don't just buy them carets. You know that, of course
19:14
Speaker 2: they need carrots, but these are human beings and so
19:18
Speaker 2: you need to have your hands in their lives. And
19:23
Speaker 2: that's what the church is about. It's not one group
19:27
Speaker 2: sits over here, another group sits over there, and they
19:29
Speaker 2: send him money every once in a while. It's this
19:33
Speaker 2: much more life on life engagement that is central to
19:39
Speaker 2: what it means to be a faithful Christian. To answer
19:44
Speaker 2: jesus question or the question, who is my neighbor, it's
19:50
Speaker 2: the good Samaritan did not just give the guy money.
19:56
Speaker 2: He actually took care of him and and gave him money.
20:02
Speaker 2: And that's I think that's the part of this that
20:06
Speaker 2: Moody has something to say to us today. It's too
20:11
Speaker 2: easy to just write a check. What we need to
20:17
Speaker 2: do is really see these people as human beings as
20:22
Speaker 2: Jesus sees them, and pour ourselves into their lives.
20:28
Speaker 1: And I think part of where I wanted to kind
20:31
Speaker 1: of get to with this is you see, Moody, And
20:34
Speaker 1: what's hindering all of that that you just discussed, this
20:37
Speaker 1: sort of Christian obligation, the care of neighbor, the overflowing
20:43
Speaker 1: of the love of God in material ways, not just
20:46
Speaker 1: in giving up money, but actually in time and embody
20:51
Speaker 1: to sort of care for one another. I think one
20:53
Speaker 1: of the things that he would say is it's sin.
20:57
Speaker 1: It's our unwillingness to yield to the spirit of God.
21:00
Speaker 1: It's our unwillingness to love God with all we are
21:02
Speaker 1: and have it's selfishness. It's these things that are creeping
21:05
Speaker 1: in all over the place. But I think interestingly he
21:08
Speaker 1: has a solution for that, and it's the Gospel. It's
21:11
Speaker 1: the ongoing work of sanctification of the Holy Spirit. Like
21:13
Speaker 1: there's a theological element to deal Moody's understanding of this
21:18
Speaker 1: where Christians are going to be moved forward progressively, not perfectly,
21:24
Speaker 1: but progressively toward a greater love of neighbor. I would
21:28
Speaker 1: argue that the biggest problem in Marxist system is that
21:31
Speaker 1: he offers no solution to the sort of overpowering nature,
21:40
Speaker 1: the overreach of a state. So for those of you
21:43
Speaker 1: who are unfamiliar Marx theorizes that what's going to have
21:48
Speaker 1: to happen in order for the bourgeoisie right to be
21:52
Speaker 1: overcome by the proletariat is a revolution some sort of
21:57
Speaker 1: Usually it's a violent revolution. Once that vile revolution takes place,
22:03
Speaker 1: then what you'd have as a transnational state that is
22:07
Speaker 1: going to be managing the economic relations between people, and
22:14
Speaker 1: that transnational state is to eventually relinquish power. Now he
22:19
Speaker 1: gives no mechanism for that relinquishment of power. He gives
22:22
Speaker 1: no understanding of how that's going to go. And I
22:26
Speaker 1: think in part it's because he is lacking in his
22:30
Speaker 1: deep understanding of how hard the human heart actually is.
22:36
Speaker 1: How do you deal with selfishness? How do you deal
22:38
Speaker 1: with greed? Now that is not me saying the only
22:41
Speaker 1: solution to this is sin, right, It's like, I think
22:45
Speaker 1: it is more complex than that. But you see it
22:48
Speaker 1: in Marxist philosophy. As he draws this forward, he has
22:52
Speaker 1: no solution really to maintaining these sorts of relationships between people,
22:58
Speaker 1: because if you got rid of the government completely, he
23:01
Speaker 1: intuitively knows that's going to be chaotic. And yet keeping
23:05
Speaker 1: the government doesn't really solve the problem because greg as
23:08
Speaker 1: you noted like there's excess at the top. They're not
23:11
Speaker 1: participating in society in the same way as Marx was
23:16
Speaker 1: sort of trying to map this out, And so Marxism
23:20
Speaker 1: one thing you could say for this sort of socialist vision,
23:24
Speaker 1: it is in part problematic because it has no way
23:29
Speaker 1: to buffer against the same sort of excess is that
23:34
Speaker 1: he's critiquing at the beginning. It just doesn't really solve
23:38
Speaker 1: the problem. You can always have people, yeah, you can
23:41
Speaker 1: always have people taking advantage of the system, where I
23:43
Speaker 1: think Moody at least has this sort of the theological
23:46
Speaker 1: understanding and obviously you and I agree with this. It's
23:49
Speaker 1: the right and understanding. Right, we need to be changed.
23:52
Speaker 1: It's the people who are screwing things up. So until
23:55
Speaker 1: we're transformed, nothing's really going to be set right one
23:59
Speaker 1: hundred percent.
24:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a naive understanding of human nature. Now,
24:07
Speaker 2: we can talk about humans being kind and generous, and
24:11
Speaker 2: we can pull our anecdotes out and that's all true,
24:16
Speaker 2: but human beings are also incredibly selfish, power hungry, cruel.
24:22
Speaker 2: Anybody that's looked in the mirror and thought honestly about
24:28
Speaker 2: their own life can find that they find the selfish
24:33
Speaker 2: part of themselves, the cruel part of themselves, the power
24:37
Speaker 2: hungry part of themselves, the egotistical part of themselves. And
24:41
Speaker 2: simply doing away with classes doesn't fix that. I mean,
24:48
Speaker 2: it's naive. If I can quote Peter Townsend from the
24:53
Speaker 2: who you know, meet the new boss, same as the
24:55
Speaker 2: old boss. We don't get fooled again. Well apparently we do.
25:02
Speaker 2: This is, you know, take from the rich, give to
25:05
Speaker 2: the poor till there ain't no rich no more. Now,
25:09
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be incentives and et cetera,
25:17
Speaker 2: et cetera, to make things fair and to be as
25:22
Speaker 2: just as possible, et cetera, et cetera. That's that's equally naive.
25:27
Speaker 2: This notion that somehow the the the blind hand of
25:32
Speaker 2: the market will drive all this, well, that's Bologne. We
25:35
Speaker 2: saw that in in Rockefeller and Carnegie and the great
25:43
Speaker 2: robber barons. The government finally had to pass antitrust laws,
25:47
Speaker 2: we had to develop labor unions. Those were all necessary things. Why,
25:52
Speaker 2: because of the nature of the human heart. So the
25:57
Speaker 2: problem with Marx is exactly what you said. It is
26:03
Speaker 2: utterly naive about what human beings are really like and
26:11
Speaker 2: what the state can accomplish it. It's just incredibly naive.
26:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think there it's sort of saying, and
26:23
Speaker 1: maybe I'll agree with this. I would say that the
26:27
Speaker 1: and I don't mean this in the Old Testament law sense,
26:30
Speaker 1: although it would encompass the Old Testament law. But I
26:32
Speaker 1: would say the law and the Gospel do two different things,
26:36
Speaker 1: you know. I go to that passage where Jesus is
26:38
Speaker 1: challenged on divorce and the Pharisee asked him, so, why
26:43
Speaker 1: if this was so bad, why didn't Moses tell us
26:46
Speaker 1: to issue a certificate or divorce? And what does Jesus respond?
26:50
Speaker 1: He says, it's because of the hardness of your heart
26:52
Speaker 1: that Moses gave you that command. But I'm telling you
26:56
Speaker 1: that from the beginning it was to be male and
26:58
Speaker 1: female joined for life, one flesh. There's an ideal that
27:02
Speaker 1: Jesus is affirming. But then there's also the reality of
27:07
Speaker 1: the situation that the law is maintain managing right. And
27:13
Speaker 1: so when we look at these systems, there's an important
27:15
Speaker 1: aspect I think. I think it's actually really crucial of
27:19
Speaker 1: this sinction. The Gospel transforms, the Gospel changes the human heart,
27:23
Speaker 1: The Gospel regenerates us, recreates us. Law keeps us in check. Yeah,
27:31
Speaker 1: and so law reveals certain things about God's order. It
27:35
Speaker 1: gestures towards God's justice, It shows us, you know, sort
27:39
Speaker 1: of where God's order draws lines, and it keeps us
27:44
Speaker 1: in theory, in principle, it's supposed to keep us from
27:49
Speaker 1: going across the lines that shouldn't be crossed. Right, So,
27:52
Speaker 1: if you're going to get divorced, that's bad enough, but
27:54
Speaker 1: then we also want you to make sure that you're
27:57
Speaker 1: taking care of the woman that you just divorced. Largely
28:00
Speaker 1: the purpose of a lot of those old Testament laws,
28:02
Speaker 1: and I would argue that as we carry that forward
28:04
Speaker 1: into national laws, we see very similar things. These are
28:08
Speaker 1: not solutions, but they're not trivial sort of half measures either.
28:13
Speaker 1: These are important systems and structures that we're putting in
28:16
Speaker 1: place that need to adjust and make sure that the
28:20
Speaker 1: excesses of sin are being restrained. And I think that
28:25
Speaker 1: as we're looking at something like a we know republican
28:29
Speaker 1: democracy in the United States, and I don't mean republican
28:31
Speaker 1: by the party, but republican by the philosophy. But we
28:35
Speaker 1: see republican democracy in the United States, we see capitalism
28:38
Speaker 1: in the United States, and then we compare that to
28:41
Speaker 1: socialism with Marx. What we need to understand is they're
28:44
Speaker 1: both doing something very similar. They're just approaching that in
28:47
Speaker 1: very different ways, and each of them is going to
28:49
Speaker 1: have their chinks in the armor that really have to
28:53
Speaker 1: be dealt with. But ultimately, what Moody seems to be
28:56
Speaker 1: doing is saying, I'm going to look at it from
28:59
Speaker 1: a theological reality. I'm going to be calling Christians to
29:02
Speaker 1: the Gospel. I'm going to be calling non believers to
29:05
Speaker 1: the Gospel, and then the Holy Spirit is going to
29:07
Speaker 1: be working on them, and these things will adjust to
29:10
Speaker 1: a certain degree. Arguably, I would say he's he's a
29:15
Speaker 1: bit naive on that to a certain degree. Mood he
29:18
Speaker 1: is he over He may over stretch or have a
29:23
Speaker 1: greater optimism for how much can actually change simply through
29:28
Speaker 1: you know, Christian conversion. But at the same time he's
29:32
Speaker 1: getting the problem rate and the solution rate. I think
29:36
Speaker 1: he's just missing sort of more of a structural element.
29:39
Speaker 1: We're on the Mark side. Marx is structuring, but he's
29:44
Speaker 1: not really understanding the underlying problem and the deep solution
29:48
Speaker 1: that needs to be there.
29:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's exactly right, James. I think I think
29:57
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, Marx fails to deal
30:01
Speaker 2: with the fundamental problem. It's what Luther called the curve
30:05
Speaker 2: of the self into the self. You know, it's this
30:09
Speaker 2: human beings are fundamentally selfish, and it's just history is
30:19
Speaker 2: replete with that. Again, just look in the mirror and
30:22
Speaker 2: think about yourself. How much are you willing to give
30:26
Speaker 2: away to somebody else? How much of what you worked
30:30
Speaker 2: for are you willing to give to somebody else, even
30:33
Speaker 2: if you're a believer. And you know, so, as we
30:42
Speaker 2: talked before we were on the air, you know, a
30:44
Speaker 2: lot of the New Testament was written as a result
30:48
Speaker 2: of these sorts of strife, strife between Jews and Gentiles.
30:53
Speaker 2: Why was the office of deacon created in the Book
30:57
Speaker 2: of Acts. Well, you know, the more Palestinian Jews are
31:02
Speaker 2: getting more than the Greek oriented Jews, so we have
31:06
Speaker 2: to it's the same old stuff. And I just don't
31:13
Speaker 2: think that the solution that Marx proposes works. It just doesn't.
31:20
Speaker 2: I mean, you've heard the old joke about the college
31:23
Speaker 2: professor who gave out the exams to everybody, and when
31:30
Speaker 2: they come back, everybody has the same grade, and they're
31:35
Speaker 2: you know, hey, I you know this guy didn't even study.
31:38
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, you know, and he said, well, it's socialism.
31:43
Speaker 2: Everybody gets the same and the you know, the class
31:46
Speaker 2: goes up for But wait a minute, that's not right.
31:49
Speaker 2: I worked more, I studied more. Sorry, that's just there's
31:58
Speaker 2: a all. All these ideas are great on paper till
32:02
Speaker 2: it's till it's hitting you. Yeah, you know, to abolish
32:08
Speaker 2: private property, Okay, it's great, but you know it's not
32:13
Speaker 2: just for the guy in the big house down the road.
32:16
Speaker 2: It's for you and your little house.
32:19
Speaker 1: That's right.
32:19
Speaker 2: And what sounds great initially when you start to think
32:23
Speaker 2: about it carefully, are you willing to work hard for
32:30
Speaker 2: somebody else who is not willing to work hard. I
32:35
Speaker 2: don't think human beings think that way.
32:39
Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like we think that way. And I
32:42
Speaker 1: think that is sort of an underlying problem with marks
32:45
Speaker 1: we see it. You know, we shouldn't treat these systems
32:48
Speaker 1: as that they're clean, like as as they're totally separate, right,
32:52
Speaker 1: and so, you know, there are elements of socialism already
32:56
Speaker 1: baked into our democracy. As capitalists as we are, we
33:00
Speaker 1: have things like welfare to help people out. We have
33:03
Speaker 1: things like unemployment to help people out, and those are
33:06
Speaker 1: appropriate social programs that are you to be used to
33:11
Speaker 1: help those who are down in their luck. They're having problems,
33:15
Speaker 1: you know, they can't get work, et cetera, et cetera.
33:20
Speaker 1: And yet you know, we talk a lot about the
33:22
Speaker 1: abuses of those programs, and the abuses we talk about
33:26
Speaker 1: are really more related to things like all these people
33:30
Speaker 1: just don't want to work, they're lazy, or they're what
33:33
Speaker 1: have you. Now we talk about misappropriation funds and all
33:37
Speaker 1: that other kind of fun stuff too, But the point
33:38
Speaker 1: is we identify that basic aspect of what you're talking about.
33:43
Speaker 1: There are some people who are who are giving welfare
33:46
Speaker 1: two who could be working and they're not. That is
33:49
Speaker 1: one of the basic fundamental arguments that it's always made. And
33:51
Speaker 1: so even in our system, we are identifying that as
33:56
Speaker 1: a problem. And it's a problem that you it's very
33:59
Speaker 1: difficult to get around because even when you tell the
34:02
Speaker 1: story about the teacher who gives all the students the
34:04
Speaker 1: same grade, Right, maybe if he gives everybody an A,
34:08
Speaker 1: that's all right, But I'm guys, seeing he doesn't. You
34:12
Speaker 1: almost have to assume that everybody gets a C. Yep,
34:16
Speaker 1: because when you're averaging these things out right, if somebody
34:19
Speaker 1: else gets an F and you're borrowing from the A
34:21
Speaker 1: to pull that up, you're going to hit a C.
34:23
Speaker 1: And so now the person with the A gets to C,
34:25
Speaker 1: the person with the F gets to CE, and the
34:27
Speaker 1: person with the A is like, WHOA. I put way
34:29
Speaker 1: more effort into this than a C effort. Hey, that's
34:33
Speaker 1: just the way it is. And I think we're fundamentally
34:36
Speaker 1: really opposed to that, in part because we're looking for
34:41
Speaker 1: individual achievement.
34:42
Speaker 2: Yes, and I want to be quick to say it's
34:47
Speaker 2: not fair to say that poverty is a result of laziness,
34:54
Speaker 2: or even that most poverty is the result of laziness. Correct,
35:00
Speaker 2: there certainly is, that is part of it. But there
35:04
Speaker 2: are injustices in the system, and the system can be improved.
35:09
Speaker 2: The question is is the improvement that Marx is providing
35:14
Speaker 2: really an improvement. I think it's it just doesn't work.
35:21
Speaker 2: It hasn't worked successfully anywhere in the world. Now. There
35:27
Speaker 2: are a few people that will still do well. Christian
35:30
Speaker 2: the early church was socialists. Look at acts, they had
35:33
Speaker 2: all things in common. No, that's not what the text
35:37
Speaker 2: says the Church did not come in and take all
35:42
Speaker 2: their goods away from them. They chose to give their
35:50
Speaker 2: goods and share them among each other. That's entirely different
35:56
Speaker 2: than the state saying I'm going to take the vast
36:00
Speaker 2: majority of the money you make, and I'm going to
36:03
Speaker 2: equally distribute it to everybody. Moody would say the early
36:09
Speaker 2: Church was behaving according to scripture because they were choosing
36:15
Speaker 2: of their own will to love their neighbor and giving
36:19
Speaker 2: it to support each other. That's not socialism. That's community charity.
36:26
Speaker 2: That's what amish do. I mean, build a barn. Everybody,
36:30
Speaker 2: go help build the barn.
36:32
Speaker 1: That's right. And I think you see that distinction even
36:36
Speaker 1: more clearly when you read Paul. You know Paul a
36:39
Speaker 1: couple times and his letters talks about not muzzling the
36:43
Speaker 1: oxen while it's treading grain. And yet Paul, in order
36:49
Speaker 1: that the church would not be hindered by his request
36:52
Speaker 1: for funds, foregoes the reception of those funds and works
36:57
Speaker 1: a different job. And I think that that sort of
37:00
Speaker 1: ethos is what the Christian community in early acts is
37:04
Speaker 1: actually doing. It's saying like this, these things that we
37:08
Speaker 1: have are not our own all. In some ways, they're
37:12
Speaker 1: following Deuteronomy sixty five, right, love the Lord your God,
37:14
Speaker 1: with all you are, with all you with with all
37:16
Speaker 1: your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength. Well,
37:18
Speaker 1: that last word strength is ode and Hebrew it's the
37:23
Speaker 1: same word that's translated very in the phrase very good
37:27
Speaker 1: at the end of Genesis one. And so what you
37:30
Speaker 1: have is this interesting like adverbial reference in Deuteronomy sixty five.
37:34
Speaker 1: It probably refers to something like your muchness, like all
37:39
Speaker 1: of your resources, that you have, all of your excess.
37:42
Speaker 1: This is what goes to God. And so I think
37:45
Speaker 1: that there's an interesting way in which that's what they're following.
37:48
Speaker 1: But again we see that as sort of a theological motivation,
37:52
Speaker 1: not a motivation that is demanded by a state, right,
38:00
Speaker 1: And I think that there's there's a clear distinction in
38:04
Speaker 1: scripture between what you're Yeah, you know, the socialist sort
38:09
Speaker 1: of tendency. Right, Yes, we should all choose to be
38:13
Speaker 1: charitable to one another and care for one another in
38:15
Speaker 1: community versus the state is going to tell us exactly
38:19
Speaker 1: how to go about doing that exactly, that's yeah. And
38:24
Speaker 1: so the one is Christianity, the other is socialism. And
38:28
Speaker 1: to a large extent, Marxism.
38:30
Speaker 2: Yes, clearly, the Bible teaches people of means have an
38:36
Speaker 2: obligation to be charitable to those without, particularly those who
38:42
Speaker 2: are without through new fault of their own. Paul also says,
38:46
Speaker 2: if you don't work, you should need and I understand
38:50
Speaker 2: in a complex economy like ours, there are people that
38:54
Speaker 2: are wanting to work and they can't through no fault
38:58
Speaker 2: of their own. That's not what he talking about, So
39:05
Speaker 2: you know it, It seems to me that that is
39:12
Speaker 2: that is what Paul is talking about. That is that
39:15
Speaker 2: we are obligated to take care of each other as
39:18
Speaker 2: long as we are all doing what God commands of us,
39:22
Speaker 2: and that is to work to the extent that we
39:25
Speaker 2: are able. To Let me.
39:29
Speaker 1: Let me shift gears a little bit here because I'm
39:32
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. I know you and Erwin wrote this together.
39:35
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what the impetus for this was. Did you
39:40
Speaker 1: know when you guys got together, did did you and
39:42
Speaker 1: Erwin sort of talk about a little bit why now
39:45
Speaker 1: for this book?
39:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, Irwin was the driver of this. This was his idea.
39:53
Speaker 2: I think he was concerned about the rise of interest
40:00
Speaker 2: in socialism and flat out communism in the United States,
40:08
Speaker 2: and he felt like and believed that these two men
40:15
Speaker 2: that were contemporaries, and by the way, Moody was frankly,
40:21
Speaker 2: far more well known than Marx was when they were alive.
40:24
Speaker 2: That's clearly been flipped. But Moody was virtually everybody in
40:29
Speaker 2: the English speaking world knew who Dwight Moody was. They
40:32
Speaker 2: you know, Karl Marx who. But he believed that these
40:40
Speaker 2: two men who were contemporaries addressing the same problem from
40:46
Speaker 2: radically different perspectives. That is frankly in play again. So
40:55
Speaker 2: how are we to think about the world. So, you know,
41:00
Speaker 2: Irwin did the section on Marx. I am not a
41:04
Speaker 2: Marx guy. I'm given a large portion of my life
41:07
Speaker 2: to Dwight Moody. And he knew that I had written
41:11
Speaker 2: previously on Moody's social vision, so it was kind of
41:15
Speaker 2: low hanging fruit for me to just pick this up.
41:19
Speaker 2: So Irwin is the author and the researcher of the
41:24
Speaker 2: first half on Marx. I did the section on Moody,
41:29
Speaker 2: and the contrast should be clear and sharp for the reader.
41:34
Speaker 2: And then you know, pick one. That's the point one choice.
41:42
Speaker 2: What are you going to invest your life in how
41:44
Speaker 2: are you going to see the world and so, and
41:47
Speaker 2: this is where Erwin is a pastor and I'm an academic.
41:51
Speaker 2: You know, he wants to bang and I need that.
41:55
Speaker 2: That's the application the challenge people the So at the
42:03
Speaker 2: end of the day, that was the impetus for the book. Now,
42:06
Speaker 2: I think the driving impetus was the you know, the
42:12
Speaker 2: political climate in the United States, particularly right now. And
42:20
Speaker 2: I don't engage in significant amounts of political analysis. And again,
42:29
Speaker 2: him being a pastor, in me being an academic, we
42:33
Speaker 2: are interested in somewhat different things. He sees things I don't.
42:40
Speaker 2: So I think it was a concern for him about
42:45
Speaker 2: what pastorally he was hearing, both in the country and
42:52
Speaker 2: in the church about Marxism generally. That's I think that's
43:01
Speaker 2: a fair reading of the impetus.
43:03
Speaker 1: James, Yeah, I think that's helpful. It accords with what
43:06
Speaker 1: I read a little bit in chapter eight Democratic Socialism
43:13
Speaker 1: Marxist Marxism Light, which I assumed was a pastor looter chapter. Yes,
43:19
Speaker 1: and you know, because you had told me you'd written
43:22
Speaker 1: mostly on the You've written the Moody parts, you'd written
43:24
Speaker 1: the Marxist parts, and and so I do think that
43:27
Speaker 1: that's a It's an interesting problem that we're facing right
43:30
Speaker 1: now in the United States because we are seeing more
43:35
Speaker 1: socialists communists being elected are close to elected in a
43:41
Speaker 1: variety of states. Obviously the primary one is the gentleman
43:46
Speaker 1: who was elected mayor in New York. Yes, Mom, Donnie,
43:50
Speaker 1: and and you know, we're starting to see some of
43:54
Speaker 1: these programs instituted the New York markets, for instance, the
43:59
Speaker 1: state or the city funded markets that are you know,
44:03
Speaker 1: cutting prices by a third. These are there's a sense
44:09
Speaker 1: in which you can look at that and go interesting
44:12
Speaker 1: and and also really good. You know, hey, glad he's
44:16
Speaker 1: helping people out. I think this is a you know,
44:18
Speaker 1: it's a nice program, this is fantastic whatever, But we
44:24
Speaker 1: very seldom read that as a whole system. I was
44:27
Speaker 1: listening to a news program the other day where they
44:30
Speaker 1: were talking about the New York bodegas who just weren't
44:33
Speaker 1: going to be able to keep up on price and
44:36
Speaker 1: we're going to suffer from competition with these city grocers,
44:41
Speaker 1: and the gentleman on the democratic socialist side, uh basically said, well,
44:45
Speaker 1: if you you know, if you can't make it in
44:47
Speaker 1: that business, maybe you shouldn't be in that business. It's like, well,
44:50
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this the city the city grocers have
44:54
Speaker 1: been you know, funded by millions of dollars in taxpayer
44:58
Speaker 1: money that you know, that's their business model. It's almost
45:02
Speaker 1: an unfair advantage. It is an unfair advantage. And so
45:06
Speaker 1: you know, you've got all of these sort of things ruling,
45:09
Speaker 1: and we're seeing them be promoted as these very simple
45:13
Speaker 1: solutions to extremely complex problems. And I think for people
45:18
Speaker 1: who haven't lived, you and I are old enough to
45:21
Speaker 1: remember Fidel Castro's sort of at his zenith in Cuba.
45:25
Speaker 1: We're old enough to remember the you know, the Berlin
45:28
Speaker 1: Wall coming down, and you know, the abolishment of socialism
45:33
Speaker 1: slash communism in eastern Germany. We're you know, I've got
45:40
Speaker 1: a friend who grew up in communist Romania and has
45:44
Speaker 1: told his story a number of times to me, which
45:47
Speaker 1: is just fantastic. Like, you know, he'd tell me get
45:50
Speaker 1: up in the morning, and he knew what he was
45:51
Speaker 1: going to do that day. He was going to go
45:52
Speaker 1: wait four hours in a line. And when I asked
45:55
Speaker 1: him what he was waiting four hours for, he said,
45:57
Speaker 1: whatever they had. He's like, it didn't or what you
46:00
Speaker 1: were waiting for you needed everything right, And I think
46:04
Speaker 1: that we don't always have that sort of historical context,
46:07
Speaker 1: especially younger generations, to look at these things and sit
46:11
Speaker 1: back and say, what have these things really wrought? And
46:14
Speaker 1: without demonizing one or the other, without saying, you know,
46:19
Speaker 1: republican democracy never has any problems. Obviously that's not true.
46:23
Speaker 1: But I think what we can say is that swapping systems.
46:28
Speaker 1: Kim and I came up with this analogy. When we'd
46:30
Speaker 1: look at new jobs, we'd say, the grass is never greener.
46:33
Speaker 1: The brown patches are just in different places, yes, And
46:37
Speaker 1: so when we're switching these systems, the brown patches are
46:39
Speaker 1: going to be in different places. And that, I think
46:43
Speaker 1: is it comes out well in the book. You know,
46:45
Speaker 1: when we talk about democratic socialism, it doesn't really feel
46:48
Speaker 1: like the book has a democratic emphasis to it, right, Like, Hey,
46:54
Speaker 1: we need to stick with the same system we've got.
46:56
Speaker 1: What it's trying to point to and gesture to is, look,
46:59
Speaker 1: we've got the Gospel, We've got a theological reality we
47:02
Speaker 1: can play into, and these things are really crucial. Having
47:07
Speaker 1: that theological understanding is really crucial to the way we
47:10
Speaker 1: live life on this planet.
47:13
Speaker 2: And I also wonder if the church had done its
47:17
Speaker 2: job and was doing its job, how much of this
47:21
Speaker 2: would have any traction. I was talking to a friend who,
47:28
Speaker 2: you know is he just retired, but he was in finance,
47:36
Speaker 2: and he said, the you know, the problem is the
47:40
Speaker 2: top ten percent is flourishing and when everybody else is struggling,
47:45
Speaker 2: these ideas get traction. He's absolutely correct. But what if
47:53
Speaker 2: what if the evangelical church had fully adopted Moody's model,
48:00
Speaker 2: that is, they were actively engaged, hands on in their communities,
48:08
Speaker 2: providing social services. So what if the churches had significant
48:18
Speaker 2: food depositories. What if rich suburban churches were really in
48:27
Speaker 2: full fellowship with poor urban churches and we're sending not
48:33
Speaker 2: just money but brain power down to help community development.
48:38
Speaker 2: What if? What if? What if? You know, if we
48:44
Speaker 2: had done more of these things, would this have as
48:50
Speaker 2: much traction as it does? And my guess is it would.
48:52
Speaker 2: In fact, Frederick Ingles at one point said the reason
48:56
Speaker 2: communism didn't catch up in England is because of Moody's
49:04
Speaker 2: revivals in the Salvation Army. Well that's pretty telling. Yeah,
49:12
Speaker 2: you know, when the church does what it's supposed to do,
49:20
Speaker 2: then it is sult and light and it's eleven or
49:24
Speaker 2: it's uh, you know it, it's sult and light and
49:28
Speaker 2: and it has a positive impact on life in the community.
49:36
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that the church can do all
49:40
Speaker 2: that needs to be done. I'm not opposed to you know,
49:45
Speaker 2: social security, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But we
49:48
Speaker 2: certainly could do much more, especially if we cooperated to
49:56
Speaker 2: build social programs into the community, after school programs, programs
50:02
Speaker 2: for people with disabilities, informal education of food banks, employment services,
50:16
Speaker 2: basic skill, life skill stuff. These are things that we
50:22
Speaker 2: could be doing, and not many churches do them. You
50:26
Speaker 2: just don't. And I think had we been better at that,
50:36
Speaker 2: evangelicalism would be perceived differently. One and two, I think
50:42
Speaker 2: a lot of the traction for this would be undercut.
50:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon. And the example I usually
50:56
Speaker 1: give is rounding up at the grocery store. You'll go
51:01
Speaker 1: to the grocery store, you'll pay your groceries and maybe
51:03
Speaker 1: you've got fifteen cents left on your bill and get
51:05
Speaker 1: up to a round number, and it's like, oh, would
51:06
Speaker 1: you like to round up? And what I think is
51:10
Speaker 1: happening in part is as we institute these social systems
51:14
Speaker 1: on a governmental level. It feels like rounding up is enough.
51:21
Speaker 1: In other words, the government now is taking care of
51:24
Speaker 1: all that, and we don't really have to think about it.
51:25
Speaker 1: It just comes out of my check. I don't really
51:28
Speaker 1: have any skin in the game to do this, whereas
51:31
Speaker 1: had we kept some of those things. This is something
51:36
Speaker 1: David Fitch argues in The Great Giveaway, which I think
51:39
Speaker 1: is fantastic. But as the Church gives away some of
51:41
Speaker 1: these things, we weren't cognizant of the downstream effects, just
51:48
Speaker 1: the formative effects of what that does to the Christian mind,
51:51
Speaker 1: what that does to the Christian world view, for lack
51:55
Speaker 1: of a better term, how we imagine the world around us.
51:58
Speaker 1: It's like, now all this stuff gets supported over to
52:00
Speaker 1: the government, and the church really is just where we
52:02
Speaker 1: get together and sing a few hymns. It's not quite
52:06
Speaker 1: that stark, but it certainly trends that way. And I
52:08
Speaker 1: think that you know, the argument you're making is sound.
52:11
Speaker 1: It's we needed those things, We needed to do those things.
52:15
Speaker 1: We need to engage in those things, not because we're
52:18
Speaker 1: trying to fix society primarily, but because these are constitutive
52:23
Speaker 1: of who we are as Christians. This is part of
52:26
Speaker 1: what it means to be the church.
52:28
Speaker 2: And they are commanded activities by God. It's a simple obedience.
52:33
Speaker 2: That's how Moody saw it. Yeah, well, why are we
52:37
Speaker 2: having this conversation. You know, the guy's poor, Let's figure
52:41
Speaker 2: out a way to fix it. I mean, haven't you
52:44
Speaker 2: read your Bible recently. That's kind of the way he
52:47
Speaker 2: would go at those things. Yeah.
52:51
Speaker 1: So well, it's a fascinating book. It's a fascinating contrast.
52:57
Speaker 1: I think, you know, again, Moody, he's sort of and
53:01
Speaker 1: I've found this as I've studied Moody and interact with
53:03
Speaker 1: Moody across his life. He's got a real earthiness to him. Yes, right,
53:08
Speaker 1: he's sort of in the grind. He's very seldom outside
53:11
Speaker 1: of the labor you know, everything from working in Civil
53:15
Speaker 1: War camps, you know, among the wounded, you know, to
53:19
Speaker 1: rebuilding after the Chicago fire. You get this sense about
53:23
Speaker 1: the man that he is just in the mess all
53:26
Speaker 1: the time, yep. Versus what we see in Marx, which
53:29
Speaker 1: he is an academic trying to think these things through,
53:33
Speaker 1: but very much disconnected. And I think this is some
53:36
Speaker 1: of the things that the pastor Lutter really helps clarify
53:40
Speaker 1: in the book, this is a guy who has wealthy
53:43
Speaker 1: patrons helping him to get through school, like he's not
53:47
Speaker 1: he's not getting his hands that dirty. You know, he's
53:50
Speaker 1: really pining. This guy thinking these things through and not
53:54
Speaker 1: really getting a whole lot of insight from a practical
54:00
Speaker 1: standpoint of actually working with the people on the ground.
54:04
Speaker 1: And I think that is one of those real fundamental
54:06
Speaker 1: distinctions between Marx and Moody, is that Moody is doing
54:09
Speaker 1: it and maybe needed to reflect a little more. Like
54:14
Speaker 1: we had the conversation with Mark Noll about you know,
54:16
Speaker 1: sort of this bottom up revolution and you know, the
54:20
Speaker 1: grassroots sort of a lame and approach that Moody really exemplifies,
54:24
Speaker 1: and how that was lacking some intellectual rigor. And it's
54:27
Speaker 1: fair enough, but at the same time, you know, you
54:32
Speaker 1: can't have all intellectual rigor and no connection to the ground.
54:35
Speaker 1: And I think you know what we're talking about is
54:37
Speaker 1: this spectrum and Marks and Moody just really highlight that aspect.
54:42
Speaker 1: So love the contrast. Love the book came out yesterday,
54:47
Speaker 1: so it's probably starting to sell like hotcakes and excited
54:51
Speaker 1: for you guys, and see how this goes and really
54:54
Speaker 1: appreciate again Greg you coming on and talking through Moody
54:57
Speaker 1: and the church and a little bit of Marx.
55:00
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me go buy a book.
55:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, and once again we'll put the I'll put the
55:07
Speaker 1: link to the book in the show notes. But once again,
55:09
Speaker 1: the name of the book is Marx and Moody. It's
55:13
Speaker 1: written by Greg Quiggle and doctor Irwin Lutzer. And the title,
55:18
Speaker 1: the full title is Marx and Moody, Two Contemporaries, two Gospels,
55:21
Speaker 1: two Tombstones, one choice. It's it's out on Amazon and
55:26
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are places, but we'll shoot a link
55:29
Speaker 1: in the show notes, so i'd encourage you to go
55:32
Speaker 1: get the book. Very good, Greg, you did fantastic Jawa
55:35
Speaker 1: Moody as always, and should also reference your other book,
55:39
Speaker 1: Bread and Bibles. You know you do have two of these, Yeah.
55:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you if you want a more detailed look
55:46
Speaker 2: at how Moody understood the relationship between evangelism and serving
55:51
Speaker 2: the poor, I did a previous book also with Moody Publishers,
55:56
Speaker 2: entitled Bread and Bibles, and it's about evangelism and social
56:02
Speaker 2: work and how mister Moody understood that the things that
56:07
Speaker 2: influenced his thought on these subjects, and then lots of
56:11
Speaker 2: things Moody did. People have no idea. They think he
56:14
Speaker 2: was just an evangelist. That's absolutely not true. He was
56:17
Speaker 2: an educator, He was involved in practically feeding the poor,
56:22
Speaker 2: getting people jobs, kind of on and on and on.
56:25
Speaker 2: So yeah, give it a read.
56:28
Speaker 1: We'll link. We'll link to that one in the show
56:30
Speaker 1: notes as well, everybody. So I just encourage you to
56:33
Speaker 1: pick up both Bred and Bibles. Is great overview of
56:37
Speaker 1: really an in depth treatment of deal Moody's social vision
56:41
Speaker 1: and then you have Marx and Moody that won't disappoint.
56:43
Speaker 1: You'll enjoy reading this and it does give you a
56:46
Speaker 1: completely different perspective on the theological challenges that we're facing
56:50
Speaker 1: right now. So I always enjoy a good Quiggle Looser
56:54
Speaker 1: team up, and maybe we'll see more of these in
56:57
Speaker 1: the future, hopefully. Very good. Well, thanks again man for
57:02
Speaker 1: being here, and thanks everybody for listening. We'll catch you
57:05
Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I
57:08
Speaker 1: just want to take a second to thank the team
57:10
Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the
57:12
Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
57:15
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57:19
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