Latest / The Real News Podcast / "You Can’t Say ‘Genocide’”: How US Media Sanitized Israel’s Destruction of Gaza

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"You Can’t Say ‘Genocide’”: How US Media Sanitized Israel’s Destruction of Gaza · The Real News Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Mark Steiner Show here in the Real News.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: I'm Mark Steiner. It's great to have you all with us.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: And yes, once again we're looking at Israel, Palestine and
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the disaster that's happening there to bring you the intimate
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: details of what people are facing and what can be done.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: And we're talking today to Robin Anderson, who has The
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Complicit Lens, which is an incredible piece of work. Robin
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: is Professor of Merita the Media Studies at Fordham University,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: the award winning author of a dozen single and call
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: for books. Her working sendment's films, television media coverage of war,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the environment, politics and elections, and she edits the rut
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Led Chocis book series on media and humanitarian action, and
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: serves as Project Centered judge and contributes to the annual
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: State Free Press and joins us here today. And this
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: latest book we're talking about is The Complicit Lens US
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: media coverage of Israel's genocide and Gaza. And Robin, welcome,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: good to have you with us.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Going through all this work that you did on media
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: coverage and what's actually happening in Israel Palestine. When I
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: get to the bottom of things first, and why the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: major media in America is so complicit in telling the
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: lies about what's happening in this war. I mean, you know,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, there have been decades and decades of anti
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Semitic stuff about the Jews control of the media. That's
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: not it. There's something really fundamentally deep about what's going
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: on here and why they are willing to tell the
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: lies they're telling and push the agenda pushing. So let's
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: start there.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the theme through the book is exactly what
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: happened in the US media to just actually compel them
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: to completely abandon their basic role as journalists. And I
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: think the Israeli lobby is a big one. I devoted
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: an entire chapter to talking about the influences in the
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: New York Times and a few other press But they've
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: been they've been watched and monitored by a group called
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Camera by Honest Reporting, just as students and faculty have
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: been docked if they get identified, many of them have
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: by Canary mission. They will call up their employers and
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: they will tell them not to employ them. And that
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: has happened in numerous cases. So it's not only journalism,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: it's kind of the civil society and the public sphere,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: and our discourse has for years been very constrained. I'm
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: not sure that US journalists anymore, even though they're supposed
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: to be the seasoned professionals at some of the most
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: prominent and legacy media, I'm not sure they know the
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: background anymore of Israel. I'm not sure that they understand
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: really the international rules of war, because if you're blocked
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: by the directives such as the New York Times and CNN,
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: if you have your editors openly telling you to cover
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: the press in a certain way, which is what we have.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: We had it at the CNN and the New York Times,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: and those are very influential legacy media sources. If we
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: have them doing that over a period of a few years,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: you're not proficient anymore really and understanding the rules of
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: war or the Geneva Conventions. And then when you leave
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: that those basic core understandings out of coverage, either through
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: self censorship, editorial censorship, or simply just ignorance, you can't
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: tell the story.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Only very specific here the stuff you've written about in
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: terms of the New York Times, CNN and exactly what
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: they did, exactly what the leadership is told their reporters
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: what they can and cannot do, and how could they
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: even be possible. But this is really explain that in
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: greater depth.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that was so shocking, and I've seen
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: the intercept. Well number of articles came out on the intercept,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: but CNN was putting all of its copy through its
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Jerusalem bureau, and the IDF had eyes on that stuff.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: And CNN tried to play it down and say, oh, really,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: they hardly had anything to say. And the staffer who
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: had leaked to the intercept this information said, oh, yes,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: every single word was shaped by Israeli censors. So they
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: told them, no, there are things you can and cannot say.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: You can't say, you can't say genocide, that's a taboo word.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: But the really weirdly obscured things that a lot of
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: us began to notice, where you couldn't identify Israel as
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the perpetrator of the dropping of two thousand pounds bombs,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: so you couldn't say, you just had to say explosion.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: So a lot of people identified these these headlines and
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: and indeed the press did not identify that these were
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Israeli bombs until the Israelis themselves would say, oh, okay,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: well we got a Jumma's commander. As soon as they
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: said they got a Hamas commander, then you could justify
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: any loss of human civilian life, and then you could
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: you could talk about Israel having done the bombing. So
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: lots of very strange things like that that that you
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: can actually what So what I did in a couple
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: of chapters is look at the coverage and compare them
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: to these directives New York Times, same thing. New York
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Times was more explicit about pulling out any of the
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: principles really of international law about occupation. And the New
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: York Times staffer that leaked it to the intercept said,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: how can you not talk about occupation? That is that
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: at the core of the conflict. We're not able to
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: to represent this war accurately without talking about the occupation.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: But they couldn't talk. So a lot of them refugee camps.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: That's very very important. You know, you have to know
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: that these people in Goza, many of them were refugees,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: are the descendants of refugees that were victims of the Nakba.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: So all of those that background history allowed allowed them
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: to start the war at October seventh, say, this was
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: only Hamas. It came from nowhere, the evil of Hamas,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: and therefore all of the subsequent reporting was either justified
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: or retaliatory. They started it, and we're they didn't start it.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: There's a long history of how Israel was constantly actually
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: committing war crimes already before October seventh.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of what you said here before
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: we get back to Israel and Hamas, which I'd like
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: to do. Given what you've written, what do you think
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: the political dynamic is that allows the journalistic leaders and
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: others in those two organizations CNN and New York Times. Look,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I read it. I read the New York Times every
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: day and every Sunday. I mean, you know, I've been
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: doing it for the last forty years.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Sorry to hear that, Monch.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Really there's a lot of good stuff in there, but
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: this is not one of them. And I just what
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: the dynamic is that allows that to happen?
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Right? Well, I actually devoted an entire chapter to the
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: New York Times, and you really have to look at
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: their Jerusalem bureau. There. Jerusalem Bureau, over a period of
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: years has been shaped to be very Israeli focused and
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Israeli centric. So right off, the bureau in the New
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: York Times in Jerusalem sits a top on the on
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: the air above a house where a BBC reporter, a
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Palestinian BBC reporter had to leave his house, put his
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: wife and children in a taxi, leave their things and
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: never come back. Right so, right away, the New York
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Times has a vested interest in no right to return.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: That's a major issue for Palestinians, the right to return.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: And right away, well, wow, that geostructural bias if they
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: had the right to return. The New York Times the
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: house that they spent money on, that Thomas Friedman, you know,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: presided in, and all these other bureau chiefs stayed there,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: admitting that many times their children were in the IDF.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: And for one Elizabeth Kirshner, who's still writing for The
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: New York Times, her husband was intimately involved with with
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: doing pr for the Israeli military. So these are conflicts
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: of interests of all sorts. At one point, one of
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: the public monitors for The New York Times said, Wow,
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: wouldn't you get a different point into view if you
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: had somebody in the West Bank that could really see,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: you know what the settlers did, did to people and
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: all that, so if you get a different view of
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: the situation. But they never did that. In fact, they
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: listened to a Canary mission, either a Canary Mission or
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: or an honest reporting briefing that that that criticized one
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: of their photo journalists, and he was fired from The
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: New York Times well before October seventh. So they got
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: rid of Palestinian journalists at the same time they kept
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: nurturing this this very individualized point of view from from Israel.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: So a couple of things here, but I want to
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: take a step back for just a minute to explain
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to the people listening to us what the Canary Commission is.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: You referred to it like three or four times here.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: People need to understand what it is.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: It's an originally Israeli based organization that monitors students and
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: faculty and other kind of people. Canary Mission and has
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: dogs people and students and faculty at university campuses, and
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: many times it has resulted in students being sanctioned and
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: faculty being sanctioned. Of course, you know this this I
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: wrote about this happening at Hut College in the book
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Honest reporting is basically a propaganda organ which not only
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: creates their own media, propagandized media, but that also puts pressure.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: And this is external pressure coming into newsrooms right and
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: into universities where they've got no business in these kinds
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: of civil society venues and institutions of higher education and
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: legacy media that is supposed to know how to manage
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: its own electoral boards and its own electoral staff.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: What you bring out in complicit lens, I mean, has
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: very frightening in terms of what it means, not just
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: for Israel Palestine and what's going on there, but for
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: the future of media in this country. It's not new
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: that the media is influenced by people who own the media.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: That's been a battle forever, sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: it's been a battle inside the media forever. But what
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: you're describing here is coming pretty frightening, and I think
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: that the whole it's one of the reasons I think
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: they don't really cover the opposition inside of Israel from
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Jewish Israeli saying no, we're not participating, they don't, and
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: why they don't cover kind of those things as well,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: and what life is like inside of Palestine villages. So
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I think this is a really what you've written, what
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: you put together, is important for people to wrestle with
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: in terms of how you get your information. How do
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: we know what's really happening?
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the reasons, I mean, as a consequence
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: of this type of reporting, the media has lost genimacy,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: terribly lost legitimacy. But young people particularly who don't look
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: at legacy media. If I was in front of a
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: class and I asked my students who read the New
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: York Times this morning, nobody would have, right. So they're
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: getting their information from their handheld devices, and that's where
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: they're getting their news. And they were on their handheld
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: devices when Palestinian journalists were being killed in large numbers
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: for documenting things on the ground. They had so we
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: as Americans, we had these two different realities. Really, we
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: had the documentation and the visuals, the testimony, the aftermath,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: the pictures of rubble, and the suffering of the Palestinians.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: And that I believe is really accounts for so much
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: of why the United States is now rejecting the state
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: of Israel. And for a very long time, the majority
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: of adults in the United States has not wanted our
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: government to send weapons to Israel. So we caught onto that.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: And I think in this barrage of propaganda, I think
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: it's it's notable that we have resisted it. And I
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: think that's really incredible on the part of the American
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: people in terms of I would like to talk about
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: how we fix this, and I believe that was.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: My next question, But go right ahead, please.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: I believe these journalists and these editorial boards, they need
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: to be held accountable. They really do that. Three Israeli leaders,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: including Isaac Hurtz, the President of Israel. It's a kind
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: of a figurehead, you know, net Yahoo's the prime minister.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Right, but the president doesn't have much power inside the
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Israeli Well.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: He's coming to New York City. He's coming to New
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: York City, and he's being hosted and honored by the
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: Jewish religious Seminar.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Yeshiva or Union Theological.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Union, Theological Right. And he's going to be here in May.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: And you and commission found that it is very likely
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: that he is responsible for inciting genocide. So the rules
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: of genocide very much part. You can't have a genocide
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: without a language that incites it. And these people were
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: inciting this language and saying how Hamas was animals by
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: extension Palestinian people, and Herzog came right out and said
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Palestinian civilians are guilty. So I think he shouldn't be
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: coming to New York City at all. I think he
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: should be being hauled up in front of the Heague.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: At one point in the CNN one of the staffers said,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: many of us noticed that we didn't our anchors didn't
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: have much pushback, if any, to these Israeli leaders who
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: at a time, and here's the language of the incitement
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: statute is it has to be a tie of great tension.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: You have to be a public figure, and you have
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: to have a platform, a legitimate you have to be
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: on a mainstream media platform. And they all fit that bill.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: So that's what we call incitement. And as the CNN
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: staffer said, we came very close to that by not
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: challenging these demonization of the Palestinian people, which also is
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: another theme that goes throughout the book is over and
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: over again, Palestinians in frame and in adjectives and in
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: every way we're dehumanized over and over again.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, as I was reading what you wrote,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I thought about my friends in Israel Palestine on both sides,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: and how I remember distinctly big fight that took place
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: when one of my friends who was in israeli these
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: are theater people, and I used to do theater the
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Israeli Palistine companies. I said something about Palestinians and he
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: spit on the ground, M hmm, yeah, and then a
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: fight ensued between him and one of the women in
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: the company over that spit, who is also Jewish, and
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: they said, people don't really how deep the divide is
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I think inside Israel. It's not, it's not it's not
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: evenly split, but it's a deep divide over where everything
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: is going.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I think recent polls that have come out of Israel
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: have shown that the majority of Israeli's thought that all
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: of the Palestinian civilians were guilty as well, and they
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: were a threat. They've been they've been propagandized now for
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: a very long time. Even though the newspaper Haretz is
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: one of my major sources. Because after October seventh, when
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: they called in the Hannibal directive, which is just kill everybody,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: don't let anybody take any hostages. We don't want to
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: negotiate when they call that in you had you had Israelis,
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: you know, pilots, uh In, Apache, helicopters, induscrimate bombing the
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: festival grounds when Hamas was trying to get you know,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: their hostages. Of course, that's a war crime. It's true
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: that Hamas committed some war crimes, committed war crimes. Nothing
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: could compare, however, to what Israel has done. And at
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: the time, what's so fascinating is that the demonization again
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: and again of Hamas, particularly in Palestinians, as animals they
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: justified and served to cover up and to be at
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: the beheaded baby stories, it wasn't as Richard Sanders, you know,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: the filmmaker said, it wasn't what Hamas did, It was
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: what they didn't do that the media reported on, so
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Hamas was guilty. They made stuff that was really over
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: the top saying that Hamas did so they could carry
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: out the genocide. And I think over time that the
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Israeli people have been incentive, advised and propagandized to believe that.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: You know, when you look at American media coverage as
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: you do with intensity, and it seems that it's changed
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: significantly over the last ten years. Talk a bit about
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: your analysis about why that is.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: And I've been writing about media and war for an
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: awfully law.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Yes you have, Yes you have, Yes you have. That's
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: why I asked you the question.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I think one of the really big changes was when
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: the US media embedded with the troops during the War
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: on Terror. This did two things. It showed you one
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: side of the war, the US soldier side, right and
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: emphasized that side because they were right there over the shoulder.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: And then the other thing is it allowed it to
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: They allowed them to talk about it as if it
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: were a reality show. And so we had these entertainment
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: frames coming in with the War on Terror. First the
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: reality show with the invasion. Then of course there was
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: the rescue of saving Private Lynch, which was just the
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: movie plot to saving Private Ryan. And then you had
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: all of the first person shooter games. Soldiers would come
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: back and help them with the technology, help them with
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: making it look like real shooters. So for a long time,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: the whole beginning of the twenty first century war was
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: turned into entertainment by our media. Sadly, what happened in
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Gaza was that it was so horrible the media tried
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: something else. Well, I'm just going to say what the
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Israeli saying. Have this outlandishly pro Israel coverage, But people
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: had their alternative information sources and they were looking through
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: their handheld devices at the suffering of the people in Gaza,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: and I think they understood finally that war is not
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: a game. It's not fun, it's not exciting. It's horrible,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: it's destructive. It kills people, it puts them in conditions
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: catastrophic no water, no food, no and no hospital. One
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: of the things that I read it and was the
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: hardest was the hardest chapter for me to write, Mark,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: was the hospital chapter. Israel's destruction of the healthcare system
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: and the attacks on Al Shifa and all the subsequent hospitals.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: And it was so outrageous the way the media covered
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: that distortions in one sided And those are the real
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: things that I would really like to see them held
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: accountable for.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: And how do you think you kind of but you know,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: and I've covered some of that with doctors in Palestine
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: in Gaza talking about what's been going on. Yeah, and
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: so I'm curious, how do you think we get to
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: that point where they're held accountable. But let me just
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: stop there, because the other part is a much deeper
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: question that we may have time to get into. Well,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: I'll say it anyway, which is which is that hatred
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: of Jews just bubbles below the surface in our world,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: anti Semitism just bubbles blow the surface. This is exploding it.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: That's right, absolutely so.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: And I put that in a number of places in
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: the about how this is really building anti Semitism. The
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: way that antisemitism is defined as you cannot say anything
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: against the State of Israel implies that all Jews now
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: are are for the State of Israel. You know, that
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: implies that it's a monolithic community, and it's not, and it
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: is absolutely not. And so when Jewish people are against
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: the genocide, that gets lost in that equation. And now
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: now everybody's going to look to the Jewish people as
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: having perpetrated the genocide, right, And I think that's a
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: real problem.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And in terms of the media coverage itself, one of
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: the things I thought about is as reading what you wrote,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: it shows the power of the media to influence the
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: world streetingly negative and dangerous ways.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, so as long as the perpetrators are geniie, as
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: long as the global elites as long as the West
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: unquote can look at a newspaper and stay in this
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: beltway if you will, this Beltway bubble or stay. I
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: think the New York Times and legacy media know that
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: young people who are anti genocide, they know they're not
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: watching them. All they care about is the elites and
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: the governments and the congressmen who are under the same
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: influence that the media is. Eighty two percent of our
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: congress people take money from APAC, both Republicans and Democrats.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: You know, we know the influence that these this Israeli
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: lobby has had, and that is now becoming toxic. That's
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: beginning to change. Then now we're going to have the
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: anti APEC primaries. You take APACK, you're gonna get primaried.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: But you have APEC along with the conservative Christian world
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: together are really pushing this agenda.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Are Christian Zionism and Christian nationalism and white supremacist I mean,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: I was just writing something about Pete hegsas Christian crusade
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: cross on his chest, and you know, and as Jesuit
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: pre said in the Pope, this is not Christianity, this
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: is a cartoon version. This is actually a war game
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: crusader kings. This is actually gaming again, this twisted version
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: of Christianity that now is marked that this is at
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: the White House, and you know, Trump thinks he's gone
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: and it's really horrible.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: So before we have to close, I'm curious all that
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: you've written, and I already do to encourage people to
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: read this. It's it's incredible analysis that you put inside
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: your work that we've only touched the surface. So we
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: may have to do this again. How do you see
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: this unfolding in terms of our future, in terms of
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: resistance to it and what it might all pretend.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Well, well, I think we need to act to preserve
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: alternative media in every way independent and alternative media and
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the Internet. We need to we need to really focus
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: on that. We need to show find the parallels between
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: AI narratives and the kind of empire boomerang that we
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: have going on where we're so much that has happened
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: in God's eye is now being repeated, if you will,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: in Lebanon, and now the media is just isn't covering it.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: But I think we really need to look carefully at
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: more of the mechanisms and interconnections that drive the media
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: and that drive the military industrial complex. We've now also
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: are entering an era of elite capture where billionaires, you know,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the Ellison family is now controlling CBS, and they may
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: well control other outlets. And I think these are incredibly
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: dangerous and I think we need to focus our attention there.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: And I think holding holding legacy media for their coverage
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: of Gaza responsible is really primary, and I would I mean,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: maybe this is a fantasy of mind, Mark, but I
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: see my book, our fantasies of somebody holding my book
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: at the Hague and calling out the media at the
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: at the International Part of Justice and actually telling them
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: for the rest of us, how they manipulate the media frames.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I that could happen. I mean, I could see that happening.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: That's a good idea. I like that idea. So I
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: think this is really important to explore in greater depth
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: and also the contradictions that involved and the dangers involved
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: in this on so many levels. And I think that
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I want to encourage people if you have a chance
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: to check out the book The Complicit Lens US media
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: coverage of visuals, genocide and Gaza, it's really worth kind
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: of resting with and looking at. Plus the articles you
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: do it and you can find that'll be linking to
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: here in this interview. And Robert Anderson, I do hope
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: we stay in touch, have a lot to say. We've
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: barely touched the surface of what you have to say,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: and I look forward to many more conversations.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: I do too, Mark, thanks so much, thanks.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: For being with us today. Once again, let me thank
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Robin Anderson for joining us today, and we'll be linking
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: to her work and check out her book on Gaza.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: It's entitled The Complicit Lens. Our mainstream US media covered
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Gaza and in the coming weeks and months will be
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: building more deeply into all of this. And thanks to
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: David Hebden for run the program today, audio editors, even
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Frank for working his magic who was at swally, for
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: producing the Mark Steiner Show, The Tyles Keller Rovara for
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: making all work behind the scenes, and everyone here through
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: News for making this show possible. Please let me know
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: what you've thought about what you heard today. What would
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: you'd like us to cover. Just write to me at
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: MSS at Throughnews dot com and I'll get back to
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: you right away. Once again, thank you Robert Anderson for
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: joining us today. So for the crew here Thrial News.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I'm Mark Steiner. Stay involved, you've listened, and take care.