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Jack Heath on novel ideas, writing practice and building a writing career · The Book Deal

• 0:00
  This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:08
  We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:22
  So no matter what stage of writing your at.
• 0:27
  We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:42
  The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Natasha Rai: Jack Heath is the award-winning author of 49 novels, including 300 Minutes of Danger and Kill Your Husbands.
• 1:04
  Natasha Rai: His work is published in 10 languages and has been optioned for tv.
• 1:08
  Natasha Rai: He lives on Nawal and Mare Country in Canberra.
• 1:12
  Natasha Rai: Hello, Jack, welcome.
• 1:14
  Jack Heath: Hello, how are you?
• 1:16
  Natasha Rai: I'm okay.
• 1:16
  Natasha Rai: How are you?
• 1:18
  Jack Heath: Uh, I'm really, well.
• 1:19
  Jack Heath: I, um, just got back from the, the shops where my book hasn't come out yet, but I walked into a bookshop and they had some copies, so I signed them and it's everywhere
• 1:27
  Natasha Rai: already.
• 1:27
  Natasha Rai: Right.
• 1:28
  Jack Heath: Take it out again.
• 1:28
  Jack Heath: I know.
• 1:29
  Jack Heath: It's so exciting.
• 1:30
  Jack Heath: I love it when, um, when booksellers pay no attention whatsoever to the release date and just put the stuff that they ha it sounds like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm really not.
• 1:39
  Jack Heath: I, I think it's super exciting to see a pre-release copy sitting there on the shelves.
• 1:44
  Natasha Rai: So I'm gonna throw you in the deep end,'cause you just said to me before I hit re record that this is your first interview about this book.
• 1:51
  Natasha Rai: That's exactly
• 1:52
  Jack Heath: right.
• 1:52
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 1:53
  Natasha Rai: Can I have your elevator pitch or I know what you are hiding.
• 1:57
  Jack Heath: Okay, sure.
• 1:57
  Jack Heath: Now, traditionally an elevator pitch is what?
• 2:00
  Jack Heath: 30 seconds?
• 2:01
  Jack Heath: Is that about right?
• 2:02
  Natasha Rai: Yep.
• 2:02
  Jack Heath: In, in Canberra, we don't have a lot of tall buildings.
• 2:05
  Jack Heath: So like if you're riding in a lift, it's probably 15 seconds at best.
• 2:10
  Jack Heath: But, okay, so basically there's, um, there are these two girls, sisters, their house burns down, one of them survives, the other one doesn't.
• 2:18
  Jack Heath: Um, the surviving sister, Jamie, three years later receives a message.
• 2:25
  Jack Heath: Um, like she finds a note in her bag, written in blood that says, I know what you're hiding.
• 2:30
  Jack Heath: And luckily, um, one of Jamie's best friends, uh, a guy named Axel has a sister named Zoe, who, oh man, this is too much of a family tree for an elevator picture.
• 2:43
  Natasha Rai: Keep going.
• 2:43
  Natasha Rai: You, you, you're doing.
• 2:45
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 2:45
  Jack Heath: The point is, um, Zoe is a teenage girl who has a true crime podcast that hardly anyone listens to, but she has some investigative skills.
• 2:54
  Jack Heath: So for reasons, Jamie doesn't want to go to the police about this.
• 2:59
  Jack Heath: She doesn't want to talk to her parents.
• 3:00
  Jack Heath: She doesn't want to talk to anybody, but she does need to know who is blackmailing her.
• 3:04
  Jack Heath: And so she contacts her best friend's little sister, um, who becomes the main character of the story.
• 3:11
  Jack Heath: It's all about Zoe's investigation, trying to work out who is blackmailing Jamie.
• 3:16
  Natasha Rai: Right.
• 3:16
  Natasha Rai: Thank you.
• 3:19
  Jack Heath: I'll, I'll, I'll refine that over the, um, over the coming months.
• 3:22
  Jack Heath: No doubt.
• 3:23
  Jack Heath: By the time it's too late, I'll have it down pat.
• 3:26
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 3:27
  Natasha Rai: Which is always the way.
• 3:28
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I had the good fortune of reading it.
• 3:30
  Natasha Rai: Um, and it's pretty dark.
• 3:33
  Natasha Rai: Like, I mean, I loved it, but I was like, whoa.
• 3:36
  Natasha Rai: There's like, especially, I won't.
• 3:38
  Natasha Rai: I won't ruin it for anyone, but that opening scene, I was just like, holy shit.
• 3:42
  Natasha Rai: Like straight in.
• 3:44
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 3:45
  Jack Heath: I, um, uh, I've been writing for Scholastic, that's who, um, publishes this book for quite a long time and before I started working with them.
• 3:55
  Jack Heath: I had kind of a different idea of what children's fiction meant.
• 3:59
  Jack Heath: I kind of thought that there would be limits on, you know, how, how scary something could be or how devastating, or basically I always figured, uh.
• 4:11
  Jack Heath: You're not allowed to upset the children.
• 4:13
  Jack Heath: I, I figured that was the main thing.
• 4:15
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 4:15
  Jack Heath: But I have since discovered that while there are no go zones, like so.
• 4:21
  Jack Heath: No.
• 4:22
  Jack Heath: Um, this book there, there, it's for age, kind of 12 to 16.
• 4:25
  Jack Heath: So, um, no sex, no drugs, uh, no course language.
• 4:30
  Jack Heath: But it can be as scary as I want.
• 4:34
  Jack Heath: So, um, I, I tried to, um, yeah, yeah, I, I tried to maximize the emotional impact while, um, while minimizing the amount of things that are likely to get me into trouble with the parents of my readers.
• 4:48
  Jack Heath: And, uh, that's always a fun challenge.
• 4:51
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 4:52
  Natasha Rai: Well, I mean, I'm not a parent, but I.
• 4:54
  Natasha Rai: I don't know, I'd be a bit spooked if my 12, 15-year-old was reading that.
• 4:58
  Natasha Rai: In a good way.
• 4:59
  Natasha Rai: In a good way.
• 5:00
  Jack Heath: Well, if, if it's any, um, if it's any consolation to the parents out there, my 11-year-old son has read the book and really, really liked it.
• 5:08
  Jack Heath: In fact, his enthusiasm for the project really kept me going.
• 5:12
  Jack Heath: It meant that I was, um.
• 5:14
  Jack Heath: Sometimes.
• 5:15
  Jack Heath: So, I mean, I love my job, but it is still a job and writing does sometimes feel like work, but knowing that he was enjoying the story so much and was so passionate about it, really made it feel like a personal project as well as a professional one.
• 5:29
  Jack Heath: So, um, anyway, just because I was comfortable with my 11-year-old reading, it doesn't necessarily mean anyone else would let theirs, but, um, either way he really had a good time.
• 5:40
  Jack Heath: So it was worth a shot, I reckon, right?
• 5:41
  Natasha Rai: Well, exactly.
• 5:42
  Natasha Rai: So.
• 5:42
  Natasha Rai: You've, you're the author of 49 novels, so I was like, when I was coming preparing to talk to you, I was just like, where the hell do I start?
• 5:52
  Natasha Rai: So I've just decided I'm just gonna dive in all over the place, if that's okay.
• 5:56
  Natasha Rai: And you've, you've been interviewed loads, so I know lots of people would have heard you speak about lots of things I wanna ask you.
• 6:02
  Natasha Rai: But, um, what was your starting point with this particular novel?
• 6:07
  Natasha Rai: How did you.
• 6:09
  Jack Heath: So this, this one had kind of an unusual starting point, which is that I, I had the story about the house that burns down with the two sisters in it, and I pitched it as a young adult novel to my publisher.
• 6:26
  Jack Heath: But there was an extra kind of.
• 6:28
  Jack Heath: Wrinkle in the story, which was that someone, uh, so this, this girl, three years after the fire has been living this very difficult life.
• 6:40
  Jack Heath: Um, you know, she has mm-hmm.
• 6:42
  Jack Heath: Uh, she's very badly burned.
• 6:44
  Jack Heath: She's injured.
• 6:45
  Jack Heath: So, uh.
• 6:45
  Jack Heath: Um, that has all kinds of flow on effects as well.
• 6:49
  Jack Heath: Um, her social life is in tatters, and then someone invents a lie detector app and suddenly she's in an enormous amount of danger because everyone installs it on their phones.
• 6:59
  Jack Heath: And then the publisher said.
• 7:01
  Jack Heath: Look, we really like the lie detector app.
• 7:03
  Jack Heath: Can you write a whole book about that instead?
• 7:06
  Jack Heath: So I did, and that became a five book series called Liars.
• 7:10
  Jack Heath: Um, but this story about the, um, the two girls in the fire, it's like sometimes the only way you know that an idea is worth pursuing is you try not to pursue it.
• 7:21
  Jack Heath: And then if it just.
• 7:22
  Jack Heath: Keeps living rent free in your brain for years and years and years.
• 7:26
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 7:27
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 7:27
  Jack Heath: Then, you know, you're probably gonna have to write the book, otherwise you'll, you'll never be rid of it.
• 7:30
  Jack Heath: So that's kind of what happened to me.
• 7:33
  Jack Heath: And after I wrote, um, so I tried to forget about that idea, the two girls.
• 7:38
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 7:39
  Jack Heath: And the fire, I put it aside, um, for, um, I don't know, I, I think the original pitch was in 2017 or something, so this is almost 10 years ago.
• 7:48
  Jack Heath: Wow.
• 7:48
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 7:49
  Yeah.
• 7:49
  Jack Heath: Then something happened, uh, a Good Girl's Guide to Murder came out, and that was a massive, massive smash hit across the board.
• 7:58
  Jack Heath: And Scholastic asked me if I was willing to write some kind of teenage murder mystery thing.
• 8:04
  Jack Heath: So I wrote a book called, if You Tell Anyone You Are Next.
• 8:08
  Jack Heath: Um, which came out not last year was the year before, but that introduced Zoe Gale, the podcaster as a character.
• 8:15
  Jack Heath: And you never really know if something's gonna work until you actually sit down and write it.
• 8:20
  Jack Heath: But when I sat down and wrote, if you tell Anyone You're Next, um, I really loved the main character Zoe.
• 8:26
  Jack Heath: She was just so much fun to write about, um, in part because of the.
• 8:31
  Jack Heath: The ways she responds to situations and the way she talks.
• 8:35
  Jack Heath: And so she's, uh, she's kind of brave.
• 8:38
  Jack Heath: She's a little bit sassy, but also she's very sassy.
• 8:41
  Jack Heath: She's, I like that also.
• 8:42
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 8:42
  Jack Heath: And I think she's kind of just the right side of rebellious as well.
• 8:47
  Jack Heath: Like she's, um.
• 8:49
  Jack Heath: She cares about right and wrong, but doesn't necessarily do what she's told.
• 8:52
  Jack Heath: So for all those reasons, she was a fun character to write about.
• 8:55
  Jack Heath: And then when it did really well, the publisher said, well, would you like to write another book about Zoe?
• 9:01
  Jack Heath: And I was like, well, I would like to write a book about the fire with the two girls and the burning house and stuff.
• 9:08
  Jack Heath: And the, I think what was missing from that original pitch, uh, the, the.
• 9:15
  Jack Heath: The house burning down.
• 9:16
  Jack Heath: My original pitch back in 2017 was that there wasn't a detective, there was no one to investigate that mystery.
• 9:22
  Jack Heath: It was all kind of, the reader was sort of trapped inside the head of Jamie, the, uh, the girl who survives the fire.
• 9:30
  Jack Heath: So.
• 9:30
  Jack Heath: Putting Zoe into the story really kind of, uh, that that kind of electrified it.
• 9:37
  Jack Heath: I had that kind of it's alive moment where I could see that the story was actually gonna work.
• 9:42
  Jack Heath: So that's, this book's kind of long, rocky road to writing, editing, and publication.
• 9:49
  Natasha Rai: And it just shows as well, like how that writing spark or the creative spark can really just go into all these beautiful, amazing directions, right?
• 9:56
  Natasha Rai: Like where you started with the app store, you know, idea, and then into Zoe Gale and then now into the back to the Bernie House.
• 10:03
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 10:04
  Jack Heath: Yeah, I heard, uh, I heard an interview on Triple J with a musician, and I'm sorry, but I, I can't remember whom.
• 10:10
  Jack Heath: Maybe, uh, maybe one of your listeners will, um, credit where credit's due.
• 10:15
  Jack Heath: I just wish I, I could remember who this was, but he talked about his odd sock draw.
• 10:20
  Jack Heath: Like basically he would come up with, uh, an idea that you couldn't really call it an idea for a song, that it would just be a, a scrap of a lyric or a.
• 10:30
  Jack Heath: Part of a melody or something like that.
• 10:33
  Jack Heath: And then if it wasn't good enough on its own, he would then, uh, put it in the odd sock drawer.
• 10:38
  Jack Heath: And eventually when there was enough stuff in the odd sock drawer, like every time he came up with a new scrap of a melody, he would check the drawer just to see if there was anything else that it seemed to fit with.
• 10:48
  Jack Heath: So I think my creative process, and probably most artists.
• 10:53
  Jack Heath: Creative process is a bit like that, like a good idea never comes to you all at once.
• 10:59
  Jack Heath: It comes in, fits and starts.
• 11:01
  Jack Heath: So the, the trick is to just kind of constantly be doing a, um, a process of mixing and matching to see, um, you know, what to see if what one thing is lacking is a perfect fit for what something else has in spades.
• 11:15
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I, I see what you're saying.
• 11:17
  Natasha Rai: And you know, as someone who doesn't have any ideas in terms of series, and I think the people who write series are just amazing.
• 11:25
  Natasha Rai: Do you know already it's going to be a series or does it work like what you just described?
• 11:30
  Natasha Rai: You maybe write something and then there's this character that you think, oh, I wouldn't mind hanging out with you a bit longer.
• 11:35
  Jack Heath: Um, there's a th this was a lesson that I learned early in my career.
• 11:42
  Jack Heath: I had, um, my, my first novel, um, so this was called The Lab.
• 11:47
  Jack Heath: It was published back in 2006.
• 11:49
  Jack Heath: I was 19 years old.
• 11:51
  Jack Heath: I was woefully unprepared to become a minor celebrity.
• 11:54
  Jack Heath: I was even unprepared to become a writer.
• 11:56
  Jack Heath: Like I, I thought I knew how to be a writer, but it turned out I only knew how to write that one book, and I'd already written.
• 12:02
  Jack Heath: Now I, um, writers often struggle with their second books, I think in part because they, they, they realize that, um, firstly every book requires a different method.
• 12:15
  Jack Heath: And secondly, your first book, you have as long as you want to write it.
• 12:18
  Jack Heath: Whereas your second book, you've usually got a year, maybe not even that, maybe like six months.
• 12:23
  Jack Heath: Um, but anyway, I saw this.
• 12:26
  Jack Heath: As a series, um, and I'd kind of mapped out this long character arc that was going to be several books long.
• 12:32
  Jack Heath: Um, but the thing is, the second book of the series didn't sell very well.
• 12:37
  Jack Heath: Um, the readers just, just weren't there.
• 12:40
  Jack Heath: But because I had this, um, uh, because I had this grand vision in my head, I still wrote a book three and a book four, even though book two had flopped.
• 12:51
  Jack Heath: And that basically led me to being.
• 12:53
  Jack Heath: Dropped by my publisher, Pam McMillan, because I mean, after book two didn't sell, book three didn't sell, and after book three didn't sell, book four obviously didn't sell.
• 13:01
  Jack Heath: And, um, and then if you write enough flops, uh, typically the number is one by the way.
• 13:07
  Jack Heath: Um, then suddenly your, your publisher drops you.
• 13:10
  Jack Heath: So Pam McMillan kept me on a lot longer than, um, that they had any right to, I reckon.
• 13:15
  Jack Heath: But, so I learned that lesson, which was to write every book as though it's going to be your last one, like as though you're gonna get hit by a bus the next day.
• 13:25
  Jack Heath: And I, I, so I don't leave anything unsaid or untold.
• 13:31
  Jack Heath: And then if the book gets a good response, then I, I write a sequel.
• 13:36
  Jack Heath: So I typically don't write.
• 13:38
  Jack Heath: Series.
• 13:39
  Jack Heath: I just write sequels until, um, people stop buying them.
• 13:42
  Jack Heath: But by people I don't mean readers.
• 13:44
  Jack Heath: I mean publishers.
• 13:45
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 13:46
  Jack Heath: Like it's not my job to sell books to readers.
• 13:48
  Jack Heath: It's my job to sell manuscripts to publishers.
• 13:50
  Jack Heath: So if the publisher isn't interested in a second manuscript in the series.
• 13:55
  Jack Heath: Then I, I don't write one, I move on to something else.
• 13:58
  Jack Heath: Sometimes the contract will specify that it's, it'll be a two book deal or, um, a three.
• 14:04
  Jack Heath: The most I've ever had is like a five book deal, and that made me kind of nervous.
• 14:08
  Jack Heath: Um, but, uh, yeah.
• 14:11
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 14:12
  Jack Heath: Sorry, I've, I've lost my train of thought, but No, no, no.
• 14:14
  Jack Heath: That's
• 14:15
  Natasha Rai: a really, that's a really interesting thing that you just said about your job is to sell books or manuscripts to publishers, not to readers.
• 14:22
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 14:23
  Jack Heath: Yes.
• 14:24
  Natasha Rai: Have you learned that along the way, or did you kind of go in knowing that?
• 14:27
  Natasha Rai: Oh
• 14:27
  Jack Heath: yeah, definitely.
• 14:29
  Jack Heath: I think, um, uh, and it, it's a lesson that I have to keep reminding myself of because there's a lot of pressure in the other direction.
• 14:40
  Jack Heath: Hang on, let me, let me unpack what I mean by that.
• 14:42
  Jack Heath: Yes.
• 14:42
  Jack Heath: So when my first and second and third books came out, I was.
• 14:48
  Jack Heath: Really focused on trying to sell them directly to readers in the sense that, um, uh, I, I was hustling, you know, trying to get, uh, interviews like I was, I I was trying to do a lot of public events.
• 15:04
  Jack Heath: I, I would try to get on the radio and try to get on tv, which is not easy to do as an individual, like a, a publisher can.
• 15:11
  Jack Heath: Pitch you for those things.
• 15:12
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 15:12
  Jack Heath: But if you're, if you're pitching yourself, you're largely just get ignored unless you, you know, you're already so famous that it doesn't matter.
• 15:19
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 15:19
  Jack Heath: And, um, when my, uh, when my third book, the, the copies were remained, which for listeners who don't know, is, is just when basically unsold sock stock is returned to the publisher, and then the publisher, um, uh, sells it on to discount.
• 15:38
  Jack Heath: Stores for very, very low prices, but they typically offer it to the author first.
• 15:43
  Jack Heath: That's often in the contract.
• 15:44
  Jack Heath: So I bought like a thousand copies of my own book for a dollar each in, uh, and then tried to do events trying to hand sell them to people.
• 15:53
  Jack Heath: None of that worked.
• 15:55
  Jack Heath: Um, so what I ended up with was a garage full of unsold books and, uh, and having to get a, a part-time job because I wasn't.
• 16:06
  Jack Heath: You know, making enough money to, um, to pay the rent.
• 16:09
  Jack Heath: And so, uh, now that I have learned, actually what turned it around was when I self-published a book.
• 16:17
  Jack Heath: So I self-published a book called Ink Inc.
• 16:20
  Jack Heath: Back in 2013.
• 16:21
  Jack Heath: And that book was not a success, but having to do all the work of a publisher really taught me what was their job.
• 16:29
  Jack Heath: And what was my job.
• 16:31
  Jack Heath: And so since then I've gotten much better at letting other people do the thing that they are in a better, uh, that they have an advantage in doing.
• 16:41
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 16:42
  Jack Heath: That gives me all this free time to focus more on the books and or more on the manuscripts and making them as good as I possibly can.
• 16:51
  Jack Heath: So since then, now there's all this pressure for authors to, for example, to be on social media constantly.
• 16:58
  Jack Heath: The idea of.
• 16:58
  Jack Heath: Author as brand is a massive, massive, massive thing.
• 17:02
  Jack Heath: And I get that because it's hard for publishers to market books on social media because no one really wants to hear a publisher talk about a book.
• 17:10
  Jack Heath: They want to hear the author talk about the book.
• 17:12
  Jack Heath: But I resist that pressure as much as I can because I remind myself that.
• 17:18
  Jack Heath: Every second I spend trying to sell a book is a second.
• 17:23
  Jack Heath: I'm not spending working on a manuscript, refining and polishing.
• 17:27
  Jack Heath: And, um, I'm aware that there are really good books out there that don't have the success that they deserve.
• 17:34
  Jack Heath: But I, um, but I, I think, uh, every.
• 17:40
  Jack Heath: Oh, you would think I would be better at articulating myself, given, given what I do for a living.
• 17:46
  Jack Heath: But I really think that, um, a good book is its own best.
• 17:51
  Jack Heath: Uh.
• 17:52
  Jack Heath: A, a good book sells itself.
• 17:54
  Jack Heath: Um, or at least tries to.
• 17:56
  Jack Heath: So that's, yeah.
• 17:58
  Jack Heath: Um, this is why I, I don't really blog anymore.
• 18:02
  Jack Heath: Like I used to spend a lot of time blogging about the, the writing life.
• 18:05
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 18:05
  Jack Heath: Back when, back when MySpace was a thing.
• 18:08
  Jack Heath: And then thank goodness someone, someone at, uh, at.
• 18:12
  Jack Heath: Tom headquarters accidentally deleted MySpace.
• 18:15
  Jack Heath: Like they hit the wrong button and deleted everyone's MySpace pages.
• 18:19
  Jack Heath: And uh, and I was like, well, there goes my blog, but um, maybe I should focus on the writing instead.
• 18:26
  Jack Heath: And that's what I've been doing ever since.
• 18:28
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I mean, like, I think that's really interesting because you are right in that.
• 18:34
  Natasha Rai: Authors have a certain job or writers have a certain job.
• 18:36
  Natasha Rai: And also right now it's quite difficult because publishers are so stretched, publicity departments are stretched.
• 18:42
  Natasha Rai: So there is more, not pressure, but maybe more responsibility on the author to get out there and do some Yeah.
• 18:50
  Natasha Rai: Promos.
• 18:51
  Natasha Rai: And that's
• 18:52
  Jack Heath: so true.
• 18:53
  Jack Heath: And'cause when you are.
• 18:55
  Jack Heath: Uh, when your book comes out, success or fail, you want to be able to say you did everything you could.
• 19:01
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 19:02
  Jack Heath: So, and, um, publishers are in a really difficult position because even if the, um, even if the budgets weren't, uh, so tight, like just imagine if, um.
• 19:15
  Jack Heath: Uh, if, if my publisher spent a hundred thousand dollars or a million or whatever it is that costs to get one of those big billboards on next to the airport, um, uh oh, actually, okay.
• 19:28
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 19:29
  Jack Heath: Airport's a bad example, but I, I was just gonna say that, um, if they spent a a hundred thousand dollars on a billboard, no one would see it because everyone's just looking down there.
• 19:38
  Jack Heath: Their phones on Instagram.
• 19:40
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Jack Heath: So kind of Instagram is where you need to be if you're going to get the attention, but, um, uh, but as, as we were just talking about like publishers aren't well placed to do that because I actually think listening to a publisher talk about a book is often more interesting than listening to the author talk about it.
• 19:58
  Jack Heath: But I don't think readers feel that way.
• 20:00
  Jack Heath: I think readers feel this sort of, um.
• 20:04
  Jack Heath: Uh, the connection between the artist and the audience mm-hmm.
• 20:09
  Jack Heath: Is a crucial part of what art is.
• 20:11
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 20:11
  Jack Heath: This is kind of why no one wants AI art.
• 20:14
  Natasha Rai: Yes, exactly.
• 20:15
  Jack Heath: It's because the, the second you realize it was put together by a machine, you kind of lose interest in it because that human connection is kind of what we appreciate about art in the first place.
• 20:25
  Jack Heath: And so that means the author is the one who's best placed to be out there on social media.
• 20:29
  Jack Heath: I've been quite lucky in the sense that.
• 20:33
  Jack Heath: At the very least, having grown up with MySpace, I kind of understand the social media ecosystem a little bit.
• 20:39
  Jack Heath: So I have a rough idea of what I can do that will or won't get traction.
• 20:44
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 20:45
  Jack Heath: But I, um, yeah, if one of my books.
• 20:49
  Jack Heath: Flops again.
• 20:50
  Jack Heath: And I have no doubt that it'll happen sooner or later.
• 20:53
  Jack Heath: Um, it's, it happened to me a lot of times before and my careers, uh, I, I'm at the peak of it right now, which presumably means I'll be coming down again any second.
• 21:02
  Jack Heath: But it means that, um, uh, when that book flops, I don't wanna look my publisher in the eye and say, oh, well I didn't.
• 21:12
  Jack Heath: I didn't even talk about it on Instagram.
• 21:13
  Jack Heath: I was too busy writing a now another book that you now can't sell.
• 21:17
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 21:18
  Jack Heath: As you can probably tell, I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about this.
• 21:21
  Jack Heath: I, I find it a, um, uh, bothersome.
• 21:24
  Natasha Rai: It is, it is bothersome because, you know, it's, it's a very different skillset.
• 21:28
  Natasha Rai: To promote yourself and to talk about your work in, in a, in a commercial way than it is to actually write.
• 21:33
  Natasha Rai: And it's interesting what you said about hearing publishers.
• 21:35
  Natasha Rai: I think writers like to hear publishers talk about books.
• 21:38
  Natasha Rai: Maybe readers just like that connection, like you said with the, with the writer.
• 21:43
  Natasha Rai: But I'm curious about your writing practice.
• 21:45
  Natasha Rai: Like what do you have to write?
• 21:47
  Natasha Rai: Like five, six?
• 21:48
  Natasha Rai: Manuscripts a year to sustain your
• 21:53
  Jack Heath: No, no, no.
• 21:54
  Jack Heath: It's, uh, so it's more like three.
• 21:56
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 21:56
  Jack Heath: I mean, so this,
• 21:58
  Natasha Rai: that still sounds like a lot for me.
• 22:01
  Natasha Rai: It takes like two years to write one.
• 22:03
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 22:03
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 22:04
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 22:04
  Jack Heath: Uh, it is quite a lot.
• 22:06
  Jack Heath: Um.
• 22:07
  Jack Heath: I next week will be the 20th anniversary of my, um, of the publication of my first book.
• 22:14
  Jack Heath: So, and if I've written 49 books in that time, then yeah, that's, that's, uh, pretty close to two and a half books a year.
• 22:23
  Jack Heath: Um, so my, my writing practice, what it generally looks like, um, and having.
• 22:30
  Jack Heath: Let me put a massive disclaimer on it that, uh, like I said before, every book has a slightly different process.
• 22:36
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 22:36
  Jack Heath: Like usually I sit down to write a book and then realize that.
• 22:39
  Jack Heath: The, the habits that I cultivated to put together the previous book don't necessarily work on this one.
• 22:47
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 22:47
  Jack Heath: And sometimes that's due to things in my life changing.
• 22:51
  Jack Heath: Like when I became a parent, my whole writing routine had to, had to become very, very different.
• 22:56
  Jack Heath: But at the moment, kind of what I do is I get, um, I, I get my kids dressed and fed and off to school.
• 23:05
  Jack Heath: I get.
• 23:06
  Jack Heath: My, my wife can dress herself, but I, I make her breakfast and her lunch and send her off to work.
• 23:11
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 23:12
  Jack Heath: Uh, and then I, I go out to my desk, I'm, I make a cup of coffee and I, I sit down and work for a couple of hours.
• 23:20
  Jack Heath: Um.
• 23:21
  Jack Heath: When I start to get stuck or my mind starts to wander.
• 23:29
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 23:29
  Jack Heath: Um, there are a couple of things that, so I, I really envy those writers who, who go like, oh, well, I, I write when I'm inspired to do it, but I, I.
• 23:39
  Jack Heath: I really can't afford to wait for inspiration.
• 23:41
  Jack Heath: I, I don't have a, a day job or anything like that.
• 23:44
  Jack Heath: I'm a full-time writer, so if the words aren't coming, I need to make them come.
• 23:49
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 23:49
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 23:49
  Jack Heath: So,
• 23:50
  Natasha Rai: so, so can I just interrupt to ask a question?
• 23:52
  Natasha Rai: When you say you sit down, please and write for a co work for a couple of hours, work means writing or thinking as well.
• 23:57
  Jack Heath: No.
• 23:57
  Jack Heath: Work.
• 23:58
  Jack Heath: Work means writing,
• 23:59
  Natasha Rai: right.
• 23:59
  Jack Heath: The um, the thinking happens away from my desk.
• 24:03
  Jack Heath: I've discovered that when I'm stuck it's often because.
• 24:07
  Jack Heath: I haven't done the thinking, and so I, I'm not smart enough to try to work out what to say and how to say it at the same time.
• 24:18
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 24:19
  Jack Heath: I, um, I, the, the words flow.
• 24:23
  Jack Heath: The words float, that never happens.
• 24:25
  Jack Heath: So, um, I rewrite every sentence, you know, several times trying to work out how to get what I want to say across to the reader.
• 24:34
  Jack Heath: And if I haven't even decided what that is, then uh, that's gonna be much, much, much, much harder.
• 24:39
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Jack Heath: So.
• 24:40
  Jack Heath: Um, or when I get stuck, I make a cup of tea or I go for a walk, or sometimes it's a matter of making sure that I give myself some time to think and it doesn't take much.
• 24:52
  Jack Heath: But I'm, I'm one of those people who, uh, I mean, no one likes being bored, I guess, but I'm, I'm not very good at sitting with that discomfort, so I tend to fill my whole life.
• 25:02
  Jack Heath: With podcasts and, you know, videos and mm-hmm.
• 25:06
  Jack Heath: Stuff like that.
• 25:07
  Jack Heath: And I end up doing work adjacent things like designing business cards on Vistaprint, you know, things where I can pat myself in the back for doing my job.
• 25:18
  Jack Heath: But it doesn't actually, I mean, when would I give anyone a business card, even uses business cards anymore?
• 25:25
  Jack Heath: But I found that if I go for a walk or go for a drive and just, um, and anytime my mind wanders, I just kind of redirect it back to the manuscript, working out what it is that I'm, uh, what's supposed to happen next.
• 25:39
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 25:39
  Jack Heath: Then when I sit down again at the keyboard, um, I'll, I'll get sort of my second wind.
• 25:43
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 25:44
  Jack Heath: So.
• 25:45
  Jack Heath: I try to write about 2000 words a day.
• 25:49
  Jack Heath: Um, I often fall short of that goal and most, uh, and probably 600 of those words won't.
• 25:58
  Jack Heath: Be kept.
• 25:59
  Jack Heath: I don't even mean in the later editing, I even mean on, on that day.
• 26:02
  Jack Heath: So, okay.
• 26:03
  Jack Heath: I used a, a writing program called novella, and this is so conflict of interest statement.
• 26:08
  Jack Heath: I'm a writer, co-owner of Novella, so if it ever somehow becomes profitable, I might somehow benefit from people using it.
• 26:17
  Jack Heath: So I need to, to tell you that up top, but it keeps track of how many words I've written and keeps that distinct from.
• 26:26
  Jack Heath: How many words I've added to the manuscript.
• 26:29
  Jack Heath: So, oh, if I write 2000 words in a day, that might be 1400 words added to my manuscript.
• 26:35
  Jack Heath: And I do that five days a week, which comes out at the manuscript getting 7,000 words longer per week, or 30,000 words longer per month.
• 26:45
  Jack Heath: And those are the numbers that I use when I am.
• 26:50
  Jack Heath: Signing contracts because I, if I'm offered a, a contract like we want you to write, uh, well, you know, a good girl, a Good Girl's Guide to Murder is doing really well.
• 27:01
  Jack Heath: Um, can you write a Teenage Crime thriller by November?
• 27:06
  Jack Heath: Um, I go, well, okay.
• 27:07
  Jack Heath: If you want it to be 65,000 words, that means it'll take me.
• 27:12
  Jack Heath: Two months and five days to write the first draft, and then it'll take me half as long again to write the second draft, and then half as long again to write the third draft and half as long again to write the fourth draft, and so on and so forth.
• 27:23
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 27:23
  Jack Heath: So I know that that project will be about 130 days total, although there will be.
• 27:30
  Jack Heath: Maybe a three week gap in between each draft when I've sent it off to the publisher and I'm waiting to hear back.
• 27:36
  Jack Heath: And in that time, I can't just sit there.
• 27:38
  Jack Heath: I, I have to be working on something else, so.
• 27:42
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 27:42
  Jack Heath: I've had to get pretty good at project management, I guess is what I'm
• 27:44
  Natasha Rai: saying.
• 27:45
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 27:45
  Natasha Rai: And when you are writing, are you editing at the same time, like that deletion that you mentioned?
• 27:50
  Natasha Rai: So you're doing all of it?
• 27:52
  Jack Heath: Yeah, that's right.
• 27:53
  Jack Heath: I, I tend to have about three or four goes at every sentence, and then if it's still not right, I move on to the next one and just tell myself that.
• 28:04
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 28:04
  Jack Heath: I'll have to catch that in the, in the next draft.
• 28:07
  Jack Heath: Um, I, I've only recently realized, I dunno if this is because I have a DHD or what, but because I do.
• 28:14
  Jack Heath: But when I.
• 28:16
  Jack Heath: Read my eye jumps around the page quite a lot.
• 28:19
  Jack Heath: Like, so not only do I write every sentence three or four times kind of moving words around until it feels like they're in the right order, but when I'm reading, I read each paragraph three or four times.
• 28:33
  Jack Heath: Um, and I, I don't do it on purpose and I only notice it if I'm, um, if I'm really trying to pay attention to my own eye movements, but I can really feel the difference when, for example, I'm listening to an audio book because an audio book like.
• 28:48
  Jack Heath: Unless you deliberately hit the skip back button, it doesn't skip back if you've missed something.
• 28:53
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 28:53
  Jack Heath: It just keeps going.
• 28:54
  Jack Heath: Whereas, um, when I'm, I, I've been reading Life of Pie, um, by Jan Mattel Yeah.
• 29:01
  Jack Heath: And really enjoying it, but the, the number of times I've realized that I've read the same paragraph three or four times.
• 29:07
  Jack Heath: And read it.
• 29:08
  Jack Heath: Read, read it in a bunch of different orders.
• 29:11
  Jack Heath: It's like each, it's like a factorial problem.
• 29:14
  Jack Heath: So a sentence, you know, has 10 words in it could, the number of different orders I could read those words in is greater than the number of atoms in the universe.
• 29:24
  Jack Heath: So, yeah.
• 29:25
  Jack Heath: Does that, do you read this way or do you read like every word in letter?
• 29:28
  Jack Heath: Never skip back.
• 29:29
  Jack Heath: Oh, okay.
• 29:29
  Jack Heath: It might just be a me thing.
• 29:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, because I've, I'm finding that really fascinating'cause I'm trying to imagine doing that and.
• 29:36
  Natasha Rai: That would, I think, drive me a little crazy.
• 29:39
  Natasha Rai: Um,
• 29:39
  Jack Heath: well, I mean, I am a little crazy, so maybe, but there, there's a cause and effect thing.
• 29:44
  Jack Heath: What came first, the the chicken or the egg, the crazy or the
• 29:48
  Natasha Rai: jumping around with it.
• 29:48
  Natasha Rai: But it's, it's such a useful skill.
• 29:50
  Natasha Rai: It must be so like to be able to do that.
• 29:53
  Natasha Rai: 'cause when I'm writing or draft, like I don't even bother rereading.
• 29:56
  Natasha Rai: I just write.
• 29:57
  Natasha Rai: It's probably hugely inefficient, and then I go back and work on it again.
• 30:01
  Natasha Rai: But,
• 30:01
  Jack Heath: but so each, each sentence, like mm-hmm.
• 30:04
  Jack Heath: You hit the full stop and then you move on.
• 30:06
  Jack Heath: You don't go back and reread the sentence you just wrote.
• 30:09
  Jack Heath: Wow.
• 30:10
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 30:11
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 30:12
  Jack Heath: That's, uh, I love, um, talking to other writers about their process in part because.
• 30:18
  Jack Heath: Uh, I think, I don't think this is just me.
• 30:20
  Jack Heath: I think most writers assume that the way they do it is the way most other people do it as well.
• 30:25
  Jack Heath: But I did an experiment a few years ago, um, uh, don't even know if I'd call it an experiment.
• 30:30
  Jack Heath: I, I guess I was just trying to trick myself into working harder.
• 30:33
  Jack Heath: I kind of live streamed my computer screen on YouTube so as readers could actually see my.
• 30:41
  Jack Heath: My manuscript coming together and it only, well, I mean it's, it stops me from like alt tabbing away to a web browser or anything like that.
• 30:52
  Jack Heath: I, because it, it felt like, you know, my boss was watching over my shoulder, oh gosh, probably, probably only about six people watched this video, but one of them turned out to be Benjamin Stevenson because afterwards I was at an event and he was like, you.
• 31:07
  Jack Heath: You re-edit and rearrange your paragraphs and stuff so much as you go.
• 31:12
  Jack Heath: And I was like, wow, you, you don't do that?
• 31:15
  Jack Heath: And he's like, no, I'm, I think about it until it is perfect in my head, and then I write it down.
• 31:22
  Jack Heath: So I, I think I do much, much, much more editing than he does.
• 31:26
  Jack Heath: But his books are terrific.
• 31:28
  Jack Heath: I, I would kill to have the kind of.
• 31:30
  Jack Heath: Um, you know, Swiss watch Brain that he has that can do that.
• 31:35
  Jack Heath: But yeah, I can't hold a good sentence in my head.
• 31:38
  Jack Heath: I can only see it on the page.
• 31:45
  Lisa Moule: Hi, book deal, podcast.
• 31:47
  Lisa Moule: My name is Lisa Moule and my debut novel is called The Mother of All Calamities.
• 31:54
  Lisa Moule: It's a satirical look at the parenting culture and the false perceptions we have of other people, and it's told from four female points of view, one teacher and three school parents.
• 32:07
  Lisa Moule: I can't wait to chat with you about it.
• 32:09
  Lisa Moule: Thank you.
• 32:15
  Natasha Rai: so with your, um, writing p like routine practice, I've heard you say previously that you like to plot your work.
• 32:22
  Natasha Rai: Is that still the case?
• 32:25
  Jack Heath: Um, it is so early on in my career.
• 32:29
  Jack Heath: Um, I mean, especially with my first book, I would kind of just make it up as I go.
• 32:33
  Jack Heath: Um, but I've discovered that, uh, a little bit of outlining can save a lot of editing.
• 32:40
  Jack Heath: You end up kind of not going down so many blind alleys and, but it, it also became a sort of financial necessity.
• 32:49
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 32:49
  Jack Heath: Like.
• 32:50
  Jack Heath: When, um, uh, so.
• 32:55
  Jack Heath: The further you get in your writing career, the less work you have to do to get the contract.
• 33:01
  Jack Heath: So at the beginning of your career, you've really gotta write an entire book and edit.
• 33:07
  Jack Heath: That's right.
• 33:07
  Jack Heath: Yes.
• 33:07
  Jack Heath: Edit and publish it.
• 33:08
  Jack Heath: And before you can sell it to a publisher, um, by the time you get to be, uh, uh, I don't know, Hillary Mantel or something, then you can just tell the publisher.
• 33:18
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 33:19
  Jack Heath: Oh, hi.
• 33:19
  Jack Heath: My name is Hilary Mantel.
• 33:21
  Jack Heath: I intend to write a book and they'll like give you money without even knowing what it's about.
• 33:25
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 33:26
  Jack Heath: Um, but I spent a lot of years in between, I guess at mid list author is the term.
• 33:31
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 33:32
  Jack Heath: Where the publisher was like, okay, we don't need you to write.
• 33:37
  Jack Heath: The book to give you the contract will give you, um, an advance for a book you haven't written yet.
• 33:42
  Jack Heath: But we do need to know what happens in it.
• 33:44
  Jack Heath: So that meant that I would have to write a two, three page outline of, you know, the whole plot.
• 33:50
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 33:51
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 33:51
  Jack Heath: Um, in order to get the contract.
• 33:53
  Jack Heath: Here's the thing though, I discovered that the best ideas are often the ones that occur to me.
• 33:59
  Jack Heath: As I'm writing, um, as I'm writing the actual draft, not the outline, and I've learned that publishers, uh, in general don't seem to mind when you deviate from the outline.
• 34:12
  Jack Heath: They, um, uh, I, I once had a publisher say when I, I submitted a manuscript that was wildly different from the outline I'D submitted and I said.
• 34:22
  Jack Heath: Look, I'm, I'm really sorry.
• 34:24
  Jack Heath: This is so different, but I do think it's better than, than the outline I sent you and the publisher said, oh, I don't read them.
• 34:32
  Natasha Rai: Oh, okay.
• 34:33
  Jack Heath: And that was a lot of pressure because when, when I knew that she had.
• 34:38
  Jack Heath: Approved the outline.
• 34:40
  Jack Heath: That gave me some confidence that this idea might have legs.
• 34:43
  Jack Heath: When I realized she wasn't even reading the outlines that I was writing, uh, that that almost, almost gave me a, a bit of a crisis.
• 34:50
  Jack Heath: But Scholastic, who published, I Know What You're Hiding.
• 34:53
  Jack Heath: They definitely read the outlines and a big part of it is what I was talking about before with they, with content warning stuff like they, they want to know that there isn't going to be anything.
• 35:04
  Jack Heath: In it that's going to be inappropriate for a 12-year-old reader.
• 35:09
  Jack Heath: So, um, and sometimes they will, uh, even the sales team will, so not just my publisher, but the, the, and by my publisher, I mean, I don't mean the publishing house, I mean the human being at the publishing house.
• 35:22
  Jack Heath: Um, it won't just be her who reads my outlines.
• 35:24
  Jack Heath: It'll be the sales team as well who kind of highlights stuff and goes like, eh, this could be problematic.
• 35:30
  Jack Heath: Um, are there ways early we can kind of write around that?
• 35:34
  Jack Heath: So, yes, yes.
• 35:36
  Jack Heath: I, I've just, I've discovered that, um, outlining really helps, but maybe, I don't wanna say one way of doing it is better than any other way of doing it.
• 35:45
  Jack Heath: And maybe you have to pants your way through a few manuscripts before you even know how to write a good outline.
• 35:53
  Jack Heath: Like before you have a feel for.
• 35:56
  Jack Heath: What kind of plot twists will and won't work.
• 35:59
  Jack Heath: I think it's a real skill.
• 36:01
  Natasha Rai: It is
• 36:01
  Jack Heath: looking at an outline and knowing if it's gonna work or if it isn't.
• 36:05
  Jack Heath: I've definitely had, um, instances where not just my publisher, but my agent has read an outline.
• 36:12
  Jack Heath: I've written and highlighted something and gone, I don't think this is gonna work.
• 36:16
  Jack Heath: And initially that's really frustrating.
• 36:18
  Jack Heath: I always go, oh, but I know it sounds dumb on paper, but when it works it, but once I've written it, I think it'll be really good.
• 36:26
  Jack Heath: And then I try to write it my way and it just doesn't work.
• 36:29
  Jack Heath: And I go, wow, I wish I had that level of skill that my agent has of being able to tell in advance whether
• 36:35
  Natasha Rai: yeah,
• 36:36
  Jack Heath: whether something is gonna work or not.
• 36:37
  Natasha Rai: I
• 36:37
  Jack Heath: don't have that.
• 36:38
  Jack Heath: I kind of have to
• 36:39
  Natasha Rai: write.
• 36:39
  Natasha Rai: I definitely don't have that.
• 36:40
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I definitely don't have that.
• 36:41
  Natasha Rai: Um, so, uh, given that you have to think about like themes, content warning, what other things do you have to do, like in terms of creative mental adjustment to write an adult book versus like a YA or Children's book?
• 36:55
  Jack Heath: Oh, right.
• 36:56
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 36:56
  Jack Heath: That, that's interesting.
• 36:57
  Jack Heath: Um, so the dirty little secret about my business is that.
• 37:02
  Jack Heath: These two categories like adult fiction and children's fiction.
• 37:06
  Jack Heath: By this I mean fiction for adults.
• 37:08
  Jack Heath: Yes.
• 37:08
  Jack Heath: I don't mean like sexy adult fiction.
• 37:10
  Jack Heath: Um, I, I think they have actually more in common than most readers or even most writers might think like no matter who you are writing for, they want suspense.
• 37:24
  Jack Heath: They want.
• 37:25
  Jack Heath: Humor.
• 37:26
  Jack Heath: They want variety.
• 37:27
  Jack Heath: They, they, they want all, all sorts of stuff.
• 37:30
  Jack Heath: So, um, so the, the two processes aren't as different as you might think.
• 37:35
  Jack Heath: Um, the, the differences are, there's those landmines that I talked about, um, before, things that you just can't put in a kid's book.
• 37:44
  Jack Heath: Um, there's also the.
• 37:47
  Jack Heath: The awareness that when you're writing a book for children, I am, I'm always conscious of the fact that I might be up to a point shaping the worldview of the reader, um, in a way that isn't true when you're writing for adults.
• 38:01
  Jack Heath: So when I'm writing for adults, I try to be a bit.
• 38:05
  Jack Heath: Subversive.
• 38:06
  Jack Heath: Um, I, uh, I, I try to go like, Hey, so maybe, hey, maybe it's not all that bad to be a cannibal, and it is bad to be a cannibal, but I can kind of prod at that idea and go, yeah, but why, why though?
• 38:25
  Jack Heath: And, and try to manipulate the reader into.
• 38:28
  Jack Heath: Caring about and even liking a cannibal as a fun kind of subversive project.
• 38:33
  Jack Heath: Whereas when I'm writing for kids, I have to be aware that I am, uh, for an adult I might be kind of enjoying rattling those moral foundations.
• 38:44
  Jack Heath: But for a kid, those moral foundations might not even be built yet.
• 38:48
  Jack Heath: So.
• 38:49
  Jack Heath: I, um, I, I don't want the books to feel preachy, but nor do I want them to do any harm, you know, so that, that's one thing that I have to factor in.
• 39:01
  Jack Heath: Another thing to factor in is that adults.
• 39:05
  Jack Heath: Tend to be comfortable with more of a slow burn than kids are.
• 39:10
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 39:10
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 39:10
  Jack Heath: I, I think, um, I dunno if it's an attention span thing or just the fact that, uh, kids have more, uh, there are more other artistic mediums competing for their time.
• 39:21
  Jack Heath: You know, like the video games especially, although I know people my age.
• 39:25
  Jack Heath: Play video games as well.
• 39:26
  Jack Heath: But that means that the, the shape of an adult novel might be you start with something dramatic or at least intriguing, and then, uh, turn the heat down to a low simmer while you start to ex establish some of the backstories of the characters and some world building.
• 39:45
  Jack Heath: And then slowly over the course of a couple of hundred pages, build up to a really big climax and then tail off with a sort of.
• 39:53
  Jack Heath: Coder at the end.
• 39:54
  Jack Heath: Um, whereas when I'm writing for kids, I basically try to keep it turned up to 11 kind of the whole time.
• 40:02
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 40:02
  Jack Heath: Um, if there isn't something, you know, something potentially life-threatening happening on every single page.
• 40:09
  Jack Heath: Then I know that I'm gonna lose a good portion of my readers.
• 40:12
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 40:13
  Jack Heath: Um, so a book, like, I know what you're hiding though, that's kind of halfway in between'cause I'm writing for teenagers.
• 40:20
  Jack Heath: So the story needs to have an overall shape, but it also needs to be kind of exciting on every page.
• 40:28
  Jack Heath: And that's a, a difficult tightrope to walk on.
• 40:31
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 40:31
  Jack Heath: But it's also kind of what makes the series so much fun because, um.
• 40:37
  Jack Heath: Often art, uh, I, I don't wanna derail this discussion by talking about AI again because it has a, it has a, a habit of kind of just taking over the discussion, but, um, I think, uh, anything that makes your artistic practice easier is.
• 40:59
  Jack Heath: Sometimes inadvertently makes it harder because the difficulty is what usually forces the creativity, if that makes any sense.
• 41:07
  Jack Heath: Yes, yes it does.
• 41:08
  Jack Heath: I mean, I was at the Manly Writers Festival on the weekend and um, there was a, a wonderful writer whose name unfortunately escapes me'cause I saw her live, so I um, uh, I'm sure she introduced herself.
• 41:20
  Jack Heath: But I, I, I didn't hear the words.
• 41:22
  Jack Heath: I only heard what, what she said.
• 41:23
  Jack Heath: So, but if anyone was at the Manly Writers Festival, she made an impression on everyone who was there, so they'll know exactly who I'm talking about.
• 41:30
  Jack Heath: She said words to the effect of, there's a reason that a work of art is called a work of art.
• 41:37
  Jack Heath: Like it's work.
• 41:39
  Jack Heath: If you take away the work and make it easy, it's not art anymore.
• 41:42
  Jack Heath: So, Ooh,
• 41:43
  Natasha Rai: I
• 41:43
  Jack Heath: like that.
• 41:44
  Jack Heath: I think there's, there's really something to that.
• 41:48
  Natasha Rai: Do you have a preference or is it just.
• 41:50
  Natasha Rai: Speaks to different creative parts of you to write for adult.
• 41:54
  Jack Heath: Oh, writing for kids versus writing for adults.
• 41:57
  Jack Heath: Um, I, writing for adults is.
• 42:01
  Jack Heath: Easier, but bearing in mind what we just said about
• 42:05
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 42:05
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 42:05
  Jack Heath: Stuff being easy.
• 42:06
  Jack Heath: Um, because when I'm writing for adults, I can write the kind of book that I would like to read as opposed to having to sort of, um, hypothesize like, okay, not what's the book that I would like to read, but what book would I have liked to read as a kid, but not the kind of kid I was growing up in the nineties, like a kid now growing up in 2026.
• 42:28
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 42:29
  Jack Heath: So that's a lot harder.
• 42:31
  Jack Heath: But children are also able to suspend their disbelief a lot further than adults are.
• 42:37
  Jack Heath: I think.
• 42:37
  Jack Heath: I think an adult, um, not all of them, but that many adult readers.
• 42:42
  Jack Heath: As soon as they read something that wouldn't or couldn't happen in real life, they kind of give up on the book.
• 42:47
  Jack Heath: Whereas a kid doesn't really care if it's impossible.
• 42:50
  Jack Heath: They only care if it's awesome.
• 42:52
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 42:52
  Jack Heath: So that means that.
• 42:53
  Jack Heath: The, my head is kind of bubbling with stories and potential stories the whole time, and the fact that I write for both adults and children means that there's always somewhere for those ideas to go.
• 43:06
  Jack Heath: Mm.
• 43:06
  Jack Heath: Like if it's, uh, if it's an idea that is a bit controversial, then the fact that I can write.
• 43:13
  Jack Heath: That I write for adults means that I can still use that idea.
• 43:16
  Jack Heath: And if it's an idea that's a bit implausible, then the fact that I write for kids means there's still something I can do with that idea.
• 43:24
  Jack Heath: So this means that there's a way of getting them all out of my head.
• 43:28
  Jack Heath: Um, yeah, and well, I mean, obviously.
• 43:33
  Jack Heath: Uh, anyone can sit down and write anything they want to all the time, but, uh, I have a way of turning those ideas into money no matter how absurd they are or how controversial they are.
• 43:45
  Jack Heath: So, which is amazing.
• 43:46
  Jack Heath: I consider myself very, very lucky to have such a broad audience.
• 43:50
  Natasha Rai: Well, I mean, I have to say, when I was reading, I know what you're hiding.
• 43:52
  Natasha Rai: I was feeling very anxious and I'm like, okay, it's because I'm the adult.
• 43:56
  Natasha Rai: It's okay.
• 43:57
  Natasha Rai: This is not, this is, you know, a teenager reading this will be like, this is great.
• 44:00
  Natasha Rai: Sorry, not
• 44:01
  Jack Heath: sorry.
• 44:01
  Natasha Rai: And I was just kept going, where are the parents?
• 44:04
  Natasha Rai: Why is no one getting involved in this?
• 44:07
  Natasha Rai: But that was me.
• 44:08
  Jack Heath: It is funny, isn't it?
• 44:09
  Jack Heath: How, um, when you're a kid?
• 44:11
  Jack Heath: Uh, so, so I used to watch a lot of horror movies and as soon as I.
• 44:17
  Jack Heath: Um, uh, as soon as I became a parent, I, I haven't watched a single horror movie since, I don't think, and it's not just the movies in which bad things happen to children that have, um, that I've, I've stopped watching.
• 44:32
  Jack Heath: It's all horror movies because I find myself thinking.
• 44:36
  Jack Heath: Why would I subject myself to more stress?
• 44:39
  Jack Heath: Like, why would I do that?
• 44:42
  Jack Heath: Whereas as a child, when you have parents looking after you and teachers looking after you and you, you exist in, uh, I'm aware that a lot of kids don't actually have access to safety.
• 44:54
  Jack Heath: But I had a, a very safe, comfortable upbringing growing up in Canberra, Australia.
• 45:00
  Jack Heath: And, um, so.
• 45:01
  Jack Heath: I was like, now let's do something scary.
• 45:04
  Jack Heath: Let's go on a rollercoaster.
• 45:06
  Jack Heath: Or let's, uh, let's watch a horror movie.
• 45:09
  Jack Heath: Or let's go to a h the haunted house ride at the, um, at the Canberra show or something.
• 45:15
  Jack Heath: And now that I have two sort of, uh, very vulnerable.
• 45:21
  Jack Heath: Um, things walking around out in the world.
• 45:26
  Jack Heath: Mm.
• 45:26
  Jack Heath: You know, where I can't protect them.
• 45:27
  Jack Heath: Mm.
• 45:28
  Jack Heath: Like I'm operating, operating on some background radiation level of anxiety all the time.
• 45:33
  Jack Heath: So, uh, yeah.
• 45:35
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 45:36
  Natasha Rai: Um, I get it.
• 45:37
  Natasha Rai: So, yeah, so thank you for, for, for acknowledging and validating my anxiety.
• 45:42
  Jack Heath: It's my pleasure.
• 45:44
  Natasha Rai: So, um, the ideas that are bubbling in your head is that like.
• 45:49
  Natasha Rai: Also part of your odd sock draw.
• 45:52
  Natasha Rai: Does it all kind of live in there?
• 45:53
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 45:54
  Natasha Rai: Or are there things that you're like, oh, they go together really well already?
• 45:57
  Natasha Rai: Or do you have to kind of wait and see?
• 45:59
  Natasha Rai: I so, yeah.
• 46:00
  Jack Heath: No, no, no.
• 46:00
  Jack Heath: I, um, the, the idea is bubbling, so I don't get a new idea very often, but it happens.
• 46:13
  Jack Heath: Uh, at least once a month, which is good because if, if it only takes two or three ideas combined to make a, um, to make a book, and I put out three books a year, then once a month is more than enough.
• 46:27
  Jack Heath: But just, uh, just by way of example, a few years ago.
• 46:33
  Jack Heath: Um, someone reached out to me, uh, he was, uh, he was an academic, um, and he was part of fog, the Future Operations research group, and they were doing a lot of research into, um.
• 46:48
  Jack Heath: Uh, future military conflicts that Australia might get dragged into.
• 46:54
  Jack Heath: And he wanted to know if I wanted to use any of his research and any of that think tanks research, um, in my thrillers, because that would be a win-win.
• 47:03
  Jack Heath: I get to write an exciting thriller and they get to have more, um, more eyeballs on the, the research that they're putting out because that, that's, that's why it exists.
• 47:13
  Natasha Rai: Wow.
• 47:14
  Jack Heath: Interesting.
• 47:15
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 47:15
  Jack Heath: And so it's great that I've been in the industry long enough that, you know, interesting people just kind of reach out to me and like hand me ideas.
• 47:23
  Jack Heath: Uh, and so I started working on this story, um, that had, so that there were like, so it's military.
• 47:35
  Jack Heath: Futuristic thriller, which is not the kind of thing I normally write, but it is the kind of thing I really enjoy.
• 47:42
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 47:42
  Jack Heath: And I was having a lot of fun with it, but, uh, part of it, so.
• 47:48
  Jack Heath: I, I didn't feel like I had enough for a full book on its own.
• 47:54
  Jack Heath: And also the publishers that I usually worked with weren't interested in publishing it on its own either, because it wasn't like, the further you get into your career, the more you end up kind of.
• 48:06
  Jack Heath: If you're lucky enough to be successful, the more you get kind of locked into a genre.
• 48:10
  Jack Heath: And the, the publishers were like, well, this isn't really crime and crime is kind of the brand that we are building for you.
• 48:18
  Jack Heath: Uh, so we don't want it.
• 48:20
  Jack Heath: But then I had entirely separately for years been working on a sort of.
• 48:26
  Jack Heath: Uh, a meta crime thriller about a writer who dies leaving behind an unfinished manuscript, and the manuscript was going to be what got him killed.
• 48:38
  Jack Heath: And I've always loved those sort of story within a story, things where, um, you get to So Misery by Stephen King, one of my favorite books and.
• 48:49
  Jack Heath: When I was watching the movie and realized that the movie wasn't going to have any of the story he was writing, I felt so ripped off because that was a big part of what I enjoyed about the book.
• 49:00
  Jack Heath: And similarly, yellow Face, like I really loved Yellow Face.
• 49:05
  Jack Heath: I thought that was an amazing book, but I really wanted to read the book that the book was about.
• 49:10
  Jack Heath: Yes.
• 49:10
  Jack Heath: As well, you know?
• 49:11
  Jack Heath: Right.
• 49:12
  Jack Heath: That, that, that felt like a conspicuous omission to me.
• 49:16
  Jack Heath: And so anyway, I started working on this meta crime thriller.
• 49:19
  Jack Heath: But, uh, the whole time the, the unfinished manuscript that the writer had been working on in the story, that was always kind of a, just a sort of blank space in my head.
• 49:31
  Jack Heath: It was like, um, just sort of generic fantasy book goes here, was kind of what I had.
• 49:38
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 49:38
  Jack Heath: And then the moment that it occurred to me that this futuristic military thriller.
• 49:43
  Jack Heath: Could be the unfinished manuscript.
• 49:45
  Jack Heath: Um, that was like, that was a, a nuclear explosion in my head.
• 49:50
  Jack Heath: I was like, yes, that is perfect.
• 49:52
  Jack Heath: Those two things, like what this book is missing is exactly what that other book has.
• 49:57
  Jack Heath: And they just, so that was a process of two ideas bubbling alongside the one, another four.
• 50:05
  Jack Heath: Uh, uh, since at least 2018 and probably further back, and I've started writing the book now, it won't be out until at least 2028.
• 50:13
  Jack Heath: So this is usually a 10 year process at a minimum.
• 50:17
  Natasha Rai: Oh wow.
• 50:19
  Natasha Rai: It's amazing.
• 50:20
  Natasha Rai: Um, oh my god, we're running outta time and I have so much more I wanna ask you, but sorry,
• 50:25
  Jack Heath: I waffle.
• 50:25
  Natasha Rai: No, no, no, no.
• 50:26
  Natasha Rai: This is great.
• 50:27
  Natasha Rai: Oh, I've learned so much.
• 50:29
  Natasha Rai: Oh my God, it's amazing.
• 50:30
  Natasha Rai: Um, so last couple of questions.
• 50:33
  Natasha Rai: Given how long you've been in this industry, like 20 years, right?
• 50:36
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 50:37
  Natasha Rai: What have you figured out, or what have you discovered that helps you create a sustainable writing career and actually building this career?
• 50:48
  Jack Heath: Hmm.
• 50:50
  Jack Heath: I think the most important thing I've learned.
• 50:55
  Jack Heath: So, I mean, because the industry has changed so much over the course of the last 20 years, um, what I was doing back then wouldn't necessarily work now.
• 51:04
  Jack Heath: Like, for example, when, uh, my first book was published because it was picked out of a slush pile and I was a total unknown, that that never happens these days.
• 51:14
  Jack Heath: I, I mean, it was rare back then.
• 51:16
  Jack Heath: It's unheard of now.
• 51:17
  Jack Heath: Mm mm So, um, whenever someone asks me, for example, how did I get into the industry, I always have to.
• 51:23
  Jack Heath: Preface it by saying, look, this is not advice.
• 51:26
  Natasha Rai: Yes, yes.
• 51:26
  Jack Heath: I can tell you how to break into the industry in 2005.
• 51:31
  Jack Heath: Um, but a few things have remained consistent.
• 51:35
  Jack Heath: Uh, one that has remained consistent is that people are always talking about how.
• 51:44
  Jack Heath: Um, books are dying like for the last 20 years nonstop.
• 51:49
  Jack Heath: Everyone has been saying the publishing industry is about to collapse, and they always attribute it to something different.
• 51:56
  Jack Heath: So at the moment,
• 51:57
  Natasha Rai: that's actually quite comforting to hear that because it always sounds like it's on the verge of collapsing.
• 52:03
  Jack Heath: I know.
• 52:03
  Jack Heath: I feel like it, uh, possibly it has been on the verge of collapsing.
• 52:07
  Jack Heath: Since the first novel came out, however many, hundreds of years ago that was.
• 52:12
  Jack Heath: Um, but so when I first started out, like video games were going to kill novels, no one reads anymore more.
• 52:21
  Jack Heath: No one reads fiction anymore because video games.
• 52:24
  Jack Heath: And then after I'd been in the industry only a couple of years, the Kindle came out.
• 52:29
  Jack Heath: Everyone said, ah, eBooks are gonna kill physical books.
• 52:33
  Jack Heath: Um, and then it was, uh, audio books like people can't even read anymore.
• 52:38
  Jack Heath: They can only listen, which I don't think, I think that's a pretty primitive understanding of what audiobooks are, but, but nevermind.
• 52:46
  Jack Heath: And now it's ai.
• 52:48
  Jack Heath: Like AI is going to kill.
• 52:50
  Jack Heath: Books, writers will be a thing of the past.
• 52:53
  Jack Heath: So, um, I guess you can take a certain amount of comfort.
• 52:57
  Jack Heath: Like, uh, I'm, I'm aware that, you know, maybe AI will kill books.
• 53:01
  Jack Heath: Like, just because everyone has been wrong every time in the past doesn't mean that they're wrong now.
• 53:07
  Jack Heath: Yeah.
• 53:07
  Jack Heath: And.
• 53:07
  Jack Heath: I'm aware of how I feel, for example, about climate change is that I, I hear a lot of other people saying like, ah, you know, people have been predicting the end of the world for millennia.
• 53:19
  Jack Heath: It's never happened.
• 53:20
  Jack Heath: And I'm like, yeah, well that doesn't mean it will never happen.
• 53:24
  Jack Heath: And also it doesn't, like, maybe it never happened because.
• 53:29
  Jack Heath: People did something about all those threats and we should be doing something about this.
• 53:33
  Jack Heath: You know, it's like no one has died of a spider bite since the seventies, uh, in Australia.
• 53:39
  Jack Heath: Did you know that?
• 53:40
  Jack Heath: Even though we are No, I did not menacing.
• 53:41
  Jack Heath: I did not know that.
• 53:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 53:43
  Jack Heath: But, so if anyone tells you that stat and then says, so don't be scared of fight spiders.
• 53:49
  Jack Heath: I'm like, why do you think no one has died of a spider bite?
• 53:51
  Jack Heath: Exactly.
• 53:52
  Jack Heath: We're terrified of spiders.
• 53:53
  Jack Heath: Exactly.
• 53:53
  Jack Heath: That fear is what keeps us safe.
• 53:55
  Jack Heath: Yes.
• 53:55
  Jack Heath: Um, but just, sorry.
• 53:57
  Jack Heath: I know we're, we're low on time and I'm, I'm going off on several different tangents at once, but the other thing that I have learned that.
• 54:04
  Jack Heath: Has consistently helped me throughout my career is to embrace negative feedback.
• 54:12
  Jack Heath: Um, I have discovered that, uh, po.
• 54:17
  Jack Heath: Positive feedback.
• 54:18
  Jack Heath: I don't get a lot from, I mean, it feels nice, so positive feedback feels nice to receive and it feels nice to give as well.
• 54:27
  Jack Heath: Whereas negative feedback is hard to give and harder still to receive.
• 54:32
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 54:32
  Jack Heath: But it helps so much.
• 54:34
  Jack Heath: I think every, every time I have improved as a writer, it's because someone told me I was doing it wrong and hopefully they told.
• 54:43
  Jack Heath: Told me nicely, and hopefully they gave me some suggestions for how I should improve as opposed to just saying what I was doing wasn't right.
• 54:52
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 54:52
  Jack Heath: But I've, the more I have embraced that, the, um, the better I've gotten as a writer, I think, and I have also had experiences with other artists and other creatives.
• 55:04
  Jack Heath: Where, uh, I, I feel mean saying this.
• 55:09
  Jack Heath: So, and I've, I've learned to kind of, if you feel mean saying something often, that's because it's not true.
• 55:16
  Jack Heath: So maybe you shouldn't say it.
• 55:17
  Jack Heath: So, but put, take this with a grain of salt.
• 55:20
  Jack Heath: Sure.
• 55:20
  Jack Heath: Because I'm not a hundred percent on it, but I do feel like I know a few writers and a few creatives who are very prickly about.
• 55:29
  Jack Heath: Taking on, um, negative feedback and whose careers have kind of since stalled and there, there may be a lot of reasons for that.
• 55:39
  Jack Heath: Mm.
• 55:39
  Jack Heath: And there may be no reason for that.
• 55:41
  Jack Heath: It might just be bad luck.
• 55:42
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 55:42
  Jack Heath: But.
• 55:43
  Jack Heath: I, um, but when, when people ask me for, uh, a piece of advice that I can give without knowing their particular circumstances, that is definitely it.
• 55:53
  Jack Heath: Like, listen to negative feedback and embrace it and collect it as much as you can because yeah, it's, it's hard to hear.
• 56:02
  Jack Heath: Mm.
• 56:03
  Jack Heath: Um, but you know, a work of art is work and that's part of the work is absorbing the negative feedback.
• 56:10
  Natasha Rai: And then even with that advice, you can kind of use it in a way that takes away the helplessness.
• 56:16
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I know that when you get negative feedback, it can feel so hurtful or take you to a place of, well, I can't do anything.
• 56:24
  Natasha Rai: Or This is.
• 56:25
  Natasha Rai: I'm terrible.
• 56:25
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 56:26
  Natasha Rai: You can turn, reframe it to go, okay, well you know what?
• 56:29
  Natasha Rai: I'm gonna use it and I can do something about it.
• 56:32
  Natasha Rai: Maybe
• 56:32
  Jack Heath: that's, that's true and I would say to, um, people who are emerging writers
• 56:38
  Natasha Rai: or course.
• 56:38
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 56:38
  Natasha Rai: Which is my next question.
• 56:39
  Natasha Rai: Top tip.
• 56:40
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 56:40
  Jack Heath: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:41
  Jack Heath: Okay.
• 56:41
  Jack Heath: So emerging writers and aspiring writers, just on the, the negative feedback.
• 56:45
  Jack Heath: If you get some negative feedback and you take it personally, then.
• 56:49
  Jack Heath: That's actually a good sign.
• 56:51
  Jack Heath: It shows that you put a lot of yourself into the work, like if an attack on the work feels like an attack on you, mm-hmm.
• 56:59
  Jack Heath: Then that just shows how much effort you put in.
• 57:01
  Jack Heath: So that's good.
• 57:04
  Jack Heath: Like, yeah.
• 57:05
  Jack Heath: If you got, uh, if your work was criticized and you were an emerging writer and you didn't take it personally, then that might show that actually you hadn't worked hard enough.
• 57:14
  Jack Heath: And if you're like, oh, well, you know, so what, then that's, that's probably a bad sign.
• 57:19
  Jack Heath: But, um,
• 57:21
  Natasha Rai: Jack, that was literally the first time I've heard it said like that.
• 57:23
  Natasha Rai: And that makes so much sense.
• 57:26
  Natasha Rai: That's why it does hurt so much, because you have put yourself into it and you have taken it seriously and it's work as you say.
• 57:33
  Jack Heath: And I think it takes a few books before, maybe it's not even a few books, maybe it takes a few books on Goodreads specifically for you to realize, Hey, all these people read the same book.
• 57:45
  Jack Heath: Like a third of them gave it five stars.
• 57:48
  Jack Heath: Another third of them gave it one star.
• 57:50
  Jack Heath: Hey, maybe what they are saying about the book says more about their tastes than it does about the book itself, given that they Mm mm the, the, it's hard to square that circle and, oh, circle that square.
• 58:03
  Jack Heath: I forget how that, that particular expression goes.
• 58:06
  Jack Heath: But then that means you can go, okay, if this is just about the preferences of the person reading and their own tastes and stuff, then that frees you up to look at what they've said and decide.
• 58:17
  Jack Heath: What to take from it.
• 58:19
  Jack Heath: Like every, every negative thing that they've said, you go, okay, is there some truth in that or does that fit with what I think or not like?
• 58:28
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 58:28
  Jack Heath: If I rewrote the book to match this person's specifications, would I make it, would I like it more or would I like it less?
• 58:35
  Jack Heath: You can kind of distance yourself and just focus on the, the thing that matters, which is what to do with that feedback.
• 58:41
  Jack Heath: Like how to, how to, pardon me?
• 58:44
  Jack Heath: How to change your craft in future.
• 58:47
  Jack Heath: Um, the other bit of advice I would give to like aspiring, uh, aspiring writers and aspiring authors is like, keep an eye out for.
• 58:58
  Jack Heath: Nonprofit writing groups and organizations.
• 59:02
  Jack Heath: I think those are a hugely underutilized resource.
• 59:07
  Jack Heath: Um, I think so here in Canberra we have Marion.
• 59:11
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 59:11
  Jack Heath: Marion Inc.
• 59:12
  Jack Heath: Formerly the Act, CT Writers Center.
• 59:14
  Jack Heath: It does a great job of promoting and supporting writers in their work in and around the a CT.
• 59:20
  Jack Heath: Every state in Australia has something like that.
• 59:23
  Jack Heath: Mm-hmm.
• 59:24
  Jack Heath: And even if it's not like.
• 59:26
  Jack Heath: A, uh, like a government funded arts organization as Marian is, there are small, like writing circles.
• 59:35
  Jack Heath: Um, again, here in Canberra, there's the CSFG, the Canberra Speculative Fiction Guild, organizations like that where it's not people trying to make a profit, it's just groups of people who are passionate about the art.
• 59:49
  Jack Heath: Um, those.
• 59:51
  Jack Heath: I know people who, I don't wanna, I don't wanna offend any sort of university academics here, and I, I, I want to support universities because all the people I respect are on the side of uni universities and against the side of fascism.
• 1:00:05
  Jack Heath: But I do wanna say that maybe instead of paying, you know, tens of thousands of dollars for a creative writing degree, you could.
• 1:00:14
  Jack Heath: Pay less than a hundred dollars to join one of these nonprofits or these guilds or something, and find yourself surrounded by like-minded people who, um, you know, they may be less qualified to give you feedback than a, a professor of creative writing.
• 1:00:30
  Jack Heath: But as long as the gaps in their knowledge and experience don't overlap with the gaps in your knowledge and experience, you can learn something from them and, um, all it will cost you besides whatever the membership fee is.
• 1:00:44
  Jack Heath: Usually not very much is.
• 1:00:46
  Jack Heath: Taking the time to engage with them and read their work.
• 1:00:49
  Jack Heath: And again, I'm an autistic person, so I don't like engaging with other people.
• 1:00:54
  Jack Heath: I find it difficult.
• 1:00:55
  Jack Heath: I find it scary, I find it stressful.
• 1:00:58
  Jack Heath: Um, I would love to just kind of be alone all the time, but I'm aware that that is an unhealthy impulse and that almost.
• 1:01:07
  Jack Heath: Everything good that has happened in my career has come because I made the effort to overcome my fears and reach out and connect with someone else.
• 1:01:16
  Jack Heath: So that's, I I can't turn that into a soundbite, but hopefully
• 1:01:21
  Natasha Rai: No,
• 1:01:22
  Jack Heath: no, that is, and listeners understood kind of what I was getting at.
• 1:01:24
  Natasha Rai: Definitely.
• 1:01:25
  Natasha Rai: And thank you so much, Jack.
• 1:01:26
  Natasha Rai: Um, and by the time this episode is, I know what you're hiding will be out.
• 1:01:31
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 1:01:32
  Natasha Rai: Everywhere.
• 1:01:32
  Natasha Rai: Everywhere.
• 1:01:32
  Natasha Rai: So
• 1:01:33
  Jack Heath: hope you like it, everybody.
• 1:01:34
  Natasha Rai: Yep.
• 1:01:34
  Natasha Rai: Get yourself a copy.
• 1:01:35
  Natasha Rai: Thank you, Jack.
• 1:01:41
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• 1:01:43
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• 1:01:49
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• 1:01:57
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• 1:02:01
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