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Victoriously Overcoming Homosexuality: Rev. Cindy Mayo- TRB Episode 52 · The Redeemed Backslider

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: With your host, Kathy Chest Day, Christian-based psychotherapist, and Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, welcome to the Redeem Backslider.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Kathy Chastain.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: With me today is Cindy Mayo.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you more about her in just a moment.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: But as I've been doing this podcast and meeting people who have been raised in the church and who have come back to the church, what we have found and are continuing to find is that there are many backsliders who have lived in a same-sex relationship.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think that that's something that has been talked about much in our organization.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Perhaps a little bit here and there.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: But like I said, the more people that I meet and the more people I talk to, I'm really seeing that it's more prevalent, as probably a lot of things are than what we as a body has actually recognized because we haven't had these open, candid conversations quite a bit.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: But I believe that that's changing.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I met Cindy.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: She reached out to me when we had the Unshackled conference, and um Ben Bland was here as one of our speakers, and she had followed him for quite some time.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was just such a pleasure to meet her, and I'm really looking forward to hearing her testimony.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna hear a lot more about her and her ministry.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, she currently has been serving God for many years, but she did leave church for over 16 years to be in a same-sex relationship.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: And um, her ministry now is called Alpha Ministries.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so with that, um, Cindy, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: And um I'll let you tell everyone out there a little bit more about your ministry, and then um we'll jump into um your testimony.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you so much, Kathy, for having me.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate this opportunity.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've been looking forward to it for quite a while.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so I uh I got saved as a young lady, and I did live for God for 16 years, actually, and then I was out of church for 12 years, and I've been back now for 22 years.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and you're a licensed minister with with the United Pentecostal church.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's correct.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I am, which is which is a wonderful testament to what God can do.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, were you raised in church with your family, or did you come in through Sunday school ministry, or what did that look like in your early years?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, I did not.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was not raised in a saved family at all.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, my family dynamic is very, very, very dysfunctional.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you would not be able to tell it from the outside looking in because we look like a very together family.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my dad made a lot of money.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: We had a lot of material things that the world would say, you know, you're a success, but inside the four walls of that house was for me, it was like living in a haunted house.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it was very, very traumatic, very dysfunctional.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: So when did you come to church for the first time?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: You said you lived for the Lord for 16 years.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: How old were you when you came to know the Lord in originally?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I met a lady at work when I was 23, and she was living for God.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: She was actually I was working in a psychiatric hospital, and she was sitting on a patient's bed when I was walking by, and I noticed a like a glow around her.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I entered the room and started to chat with her a little bit, and uh I just casually asked her what was she doing that evening, and she said she was going to be singing.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I love music, so that perked my ears up, and I said, Oh, you're gonna be singing, and she said, Yes, I sing for the Lord.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's where it all started, and she started to witness to me, and uh one thing led to another.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was in a same-sex relationship at the time, and she knew that.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but she started to pray and fast for me, and uh that's that's how it came to be.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want me to tell a little bit more about that?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, tell whatever you want.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: I I would obviously childhood, as you have said, and as we both know, um, is such a major factor in what forms and develops us into you know children and and our adult years.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so definitely that is important.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe we'll just backtrack a little bit and talk about your childhood and early development.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, sure.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one thing I will say before I start to get into that is I have been doing alpha ministries now for 21 years, and in those 21 years, I have heard from people all around the country, uh, in church, people that have left church uh because they're struggling with their sexualities or they're struggling with their gender identity.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I have found through speaking with people and also in my own research and in my own personal life as a child, sexual abuse in childhood is the number one dominant root cause of same-sex attraction and gender action.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I believe that 100%.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, whenever a person calls me, I just relax and just tell them, why don't you share with me how you think this developed in your life?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I just relax because it may not start, the story may not start out there, but somewhere in their story it's going to come out.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, and it always, always does, always.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I believe that um sexual abuse is highly, highly, highly prevalent.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like eight out of ten people, I think, are victims.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we we just don't always know that, but um, I I think it's more common than it is uncommon.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely, and I think the reason why um it's hard perhaps for us to accept that as church people is because it's it's not a comfortable subject to talk about at all.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, but um so uh growing up in my home, I I never I'm one of uh six kids.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm kind of in the middle of four boys, and then my younger sister.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: So growing up for my mom, I think it was really easier for my mother to dress me like a boy, cut my hair short like a boy, um, because of my brothers.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yeah.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and then as I was growing up, she would make comments to me like she would say, you know, Cindy, if you're gonna be a girl, you're gonna have to learn to be uncomfortable.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh things like that, that at the time, of course, didn't make sense to me, but you know, yeah, yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and then when I was about nine or ten, my uncle uh sexually assaulted me.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: He was a Was this your mom's brother or your dad's brother?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was my mom's brother, and uh he was married, he had two children.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when I got home from that visit at my grandparents' house where he was visiting at the same time I was, I told my dad that Uncle Mel touched me in a way, you know, that I wasn't comfortable with.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And my my dad uh took me down to the uh Berkeley police station, and they took a statement from me and questioned me extensively, and they went out and they arrested him and he admitted it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: So that well that's a that's a story you don't hear often.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, sometimes parents are in denial, but even when they're not and they actually follow through, and I'm so glad he did that for you.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: That had to be very um comforting for you to be believed.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, that's one of the things, like you just said, a lot of people that go through this as children, they're not believed.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the abuse doesn't end, it's it's crazy.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that was uh was very fortunate.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um but he did get sent to prison for it.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: His wife left him, took the two kids, and uh it there was a lot of fear that was instilled in me based on all that because it caused so much tension between my parents and her parents.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that was traumatizing in and of itself.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Screaming, the yelling, my father looking at me and yelling at me, what's wrong with you now?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I was like, I said nine or ten when all this happened.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I got older, I and I realized that I was same-sex attracted.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: I asked my mom if they ever tried to get some help for me.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And she said that they did talk to a child psychiatrist about it because I evidently was waking up uh for about a year having nightmares.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: But the psychiatrist told them that he felt it would do me more harm to talk about it than just leaving it alone.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um almost denial.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe you would forget as a little kid and hoping that it would just go away.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't go away.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: We know that now, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it wasn't going away.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it was trying to come out, you know, in my my dreams somehow.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I did live with the fear that when he got out of prison that he was going to find me and hurt me because he would tell me that while he was abusing me, if I ever told, you know, it was our little secret.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I broke that secret.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: Did that happen frequently or was it the one time?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: That was a one-time event.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it was, it was, it was enough.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I definitely am not minimizing it because of the coercion and the intimidation and everything that goes along with it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there were more aspects to it too that I'm really not comfortable talking about, but it was yeah, it was it was yeah, it was pretty sick.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was pretty sick.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it it damaged me.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: It it did, it damaged me.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no doubt, no doubt.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So um my mother uh through my growing up was very, very physically abusive towards me.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I re physically, verbally, um, my father was just he was a workaholic, and whenever he would talk to me, it was always something very critical, uh, never anything nice or just a conversation.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Cindy, was your mom abusive prior to what happened with her brother, or did that occur after, as you said, it seemed like it seemed like it wrapped ramped up after this happened.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does seem like that.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when I when I turned about um I was 15 or 16, uh, she cornered me in my bathroom and held a knife to my throat.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, literally the knife was touching, touching my throat.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I I did think at that time that she was gonna she was gonna kill me.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so at night, after that incident in particular, I would lay awake at night and I would wonder, she's going to kill should I kill her first or should I just let her kill me?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was that was that was very, very intense.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there was an incident that yeah, there was an incident that happened when I was 16, maybe I was 17 at this time.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: I had accepted a date from a uh a man in high school that was a year, a young man that was a year older than I.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he he brought a bottle of champagne to our date and he drank it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't drink, so he got drunk.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he almost raped me.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And he was a big, he was a big guy.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so he I fought him off with everything that was in my little skinny body.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: If I did not have pantyhose on, he would have raped me.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's no doubt about it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: In the process of this attack, he had left uh, I guess they call him a hickey on a big one on my neck.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So when I got home and I saw that, I was frantic.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: How am I gonna cover this up?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because if my dad sees this, he's gonna go insane.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he did.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: He saw it the next day.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I couldn't cover it up properly.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he he became furious and he started to throw chairs around and he said, I'm not gonna have a tramp living underneath my roof.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And because they were all about the Joneses, you know, keeping up the image, all that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, so he looked at my mom and he said, You take your pick, either she goes or I go.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: So my mom, my mom walked to the front door of our upper middle class home and opened up the front door, and my father physically picked me up and threw me outside on the porch.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I got my start in life when I was 17.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank God I had a little car, I had a little job.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I bought my first little car.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was a a white Volkswagen beetle.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I drove Andy, that's that's so devastating.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: All forms to feel like your parent hated you enough to put a knife to your throat to feel the the fear that you could be killed at any point.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's it's not just fear, but it is the the sense and the feeling of being just absolutely despised and hated.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then that would leave.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, what did that do to you?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: Were you a fearful child?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Did you have resilience?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: Did you fight back?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: Did you have your voice or were you kind of timid?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: What did all of that do to your personality and how you interacted with others?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, the one thing I can definitely tell you is I had a lot of rage inside.
• 15:53
  unknown: Okay.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: Rage because when you said, should I kill her first?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I deal with a lot of kids.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: There is a lot of children that do have homicidal ideations because they're in such a helpless place and they don't have an outlet.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: Would they do it?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I don't know, but I always think that that's a danger because the enemy is always snapping in our ear, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I do think it's a danger, but also not surprising under the circumstances.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:27
  unknown: Well then.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: What did you do with that rage?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I stuffed it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: I kept stuffing it, stuffing it, stuffing it, stuffing it.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: How did you how did you determine that it was a rage?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um when I left church, um I remember leaving the grocery store one day, and I was mad at the person behind me.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was angry at the person in front of me, I was angry at the clerk.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I left and got in my car.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was angry at the person in front of me in the other car.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was angry You're just angry.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, That's it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: When I get home, I'm gonna open up the yellow pages and I'm gonna find a therapist, and I'm going to find out why I am always so angry.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's exactly what I did.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Thank goodness.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I did.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: So at 17 you're kicked out.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: Did you did you ever reconnect with your parents?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I did.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my dad never came looking for me.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, for three days I slept in my car.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a tall lady, I'm five, seven and a half, and for that little Volkswagen bug, I couldn't really stretch my legs out.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I would get out of the car once in a while and sleep under a bush in the park.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the police saw me.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So they pulled up and they said, What are you doing?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, my dad threw me out of the house, you know.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So they said, Well, when's the last time you ate?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, About three days ago.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, Well, we're gonna give you a meal ticket.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: You go down to this restaurant, they'll give you a meal, and then you come to the police station.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want you sleeping out here.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I did.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the next day, yeah.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say thank the Lord for that, you know.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the next day, the police chief had me in his office and he said, Cindy, I'm going to have to call your father because you're only 17.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that was quite a while ago, too.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I begged him not to do that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I begged him, I we were in there maybe for about a good 20 minutes, and I I I begged him, I said, Don't, you can't do that.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what my dad will do to me.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: You can't, please.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: So after back and forth, back and forth, he finally looked at me and he said, You can go.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I thanked him, and I went about my about my way.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: Man, I'm always grateful for people that will be intuitive and then actually listen and not just always follow the rules because it might save a life to just listen to that instinct.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very grateful for that.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: So at 17, okay, what happens after that?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I was homeless for a while.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I got involved with some people, of course, that weren't very desirable people, and I got very involved in drugs, started to drink and things like that.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so when I met this lady at work when I was 23, um, it was a lifesaver for me.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, God God knew right when to step into my life.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had really at that point started, and I, you know, I called my mom after I'd been gone for about two weeks, and she was hysterical, yeah, because she didn't know where I was.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: She said, You can come home while your dad is not here and you can eat and take a shower, but you have to leave before he comes home from work.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I did that for a little while, which was good.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, when I came into church, I was at a place where I was really starting to question what is life about.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is this is this it?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is this right, this is this my life?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm young, I'm I'm only 23, and you know, I I haven't accomplished there was something inside that I wanted to do something with my life if I could.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So um God really got a hold of me at 23.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I had a wonderful, wonderful uh experience with God, and so it was it was pretty supernatural all the way around the way that happened.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us more about that?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the lady had been witnessing to me, and uh I didn't have a car at the time because she gave me her phone number at the church, and she said, Cindy, if you ever want to come to church, you call me.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Call the church number.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: There was a phone in the lobby of the church.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um this one night I was looking out the window of my apartment up at the sky, and I just said within myself, I said, there has got to be more to life than this.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: There just has to be.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And Kathy, I kid you not, it was like a magnet got a hold of me and started to pull me.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I physically could feel it.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I called that number, yeah, and I could hear all this noise in the background.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And but then the lady came, her name was Lila, sister Lila Craig.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: She's the greatest soul winner I've ever known or met.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, she came.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: The phone, and I said, Lila, this is Cindy.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I want to come to your church, and she said, We've been praying for you.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be right there.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure enough, Lord.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: She came and got me in that now.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I know it was God, but at the time I didn't know it pulled me all the way up the steps, the doors opened to the church.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Elder Billy Anders, who was my first pastor, was up on the platform singing in tongues.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: The whole church was going, you know, they were having a Holy Ghost.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and the Lord kept pulling me and pulling me all the way down to the altar where I fell and I cried for an hour.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And Sister Lila came up to me with a Bible.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: She was pointing to Acts 2.38.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: She said, I want you to read this.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I read it and I said, You know what?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it says.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I need to do.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I got baptized in Jesus' name that night, and I felt such a weight lift off of me.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And wow.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't get the Holy Yeah, I didn't get the Holy Ghost that night, but three months later I got the Holy Ghost.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that that is amazing.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: I do believe it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: I believe that he pulled you.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's God does work in the supernatural.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously, Pentecost is all about the supernatural, but to hear a story like that, it's it's exciting because that was your first experience.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the word of God talks about how he will draw all men unto himself.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I felt I I felt it without a shadow of a doubt.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: Very literally.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, yeah.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: So then, and this was the girl that you worked with at the psych hospital.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so what changed for you after that?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I would guess that you would have been afraid of men after your very first date with a man and after what happened with your uncle.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, do you think your repellent against men was due to fear?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, you know, when I started to go to church, because I started to go to church regularly then, of course it was a process for me because I was in a relationship and uh I had to, you know, make steps out of that relationship.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: That took a little while, and the whole thing, you know, I I one thing that really impressed me with the church, though, was that and and also Kathy, I suffered very severely with gender identity confusion.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: I felt much more masculine than feminine.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Much more masculine.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I feel like it was spoken over you.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you really I want to say groomed in some ways to be that, and I've seen others similarly similar similarly groomed in that way, maybe by ignorance, maybe by just others being used as a vessel of the enemy, but quite literally word curses that begin to take effect in someone's life.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: True, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: But but the thing that really stood out to me in the church was that the women look like real women and the men look like real men.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: There was a distinction in the sex in the in the genders, yeah.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and and that impressed me.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: That made a mark on me.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I noticed it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so but that is where my 16-year journey before I left church began on trying to resolve uh the uh same-sex attractions and the gender identity confusion.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so for 16 years, once I finally did get rooted and grounded in church, I was in.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: All in, all in, 100%.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, so much so that uh probably after I'd been living for the Lord for maybe 10, 11 years, I was accepted into a AIM program that stands for Associates in Missions to go over to Africa and help the missionaries over there with uh Christian education for their children.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was also a licensed nurse, licensed vocational nurse at that time.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I would be helping in the the infirmary that they had there.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm just saying that just to say you can't be wishy-washy and you I had to go before a board.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was a process.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you were all in.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was all in 100%.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um and at that time, what were you doing with your sexuality for those 16 years?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: Were you trying to date?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: Were you not interested in dating?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: Were people trying to marry you off?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: I I hear that a lot.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: I actually did get married.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I got married after I got very shortly after I came into church because I got married to a man.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: We worked together, and he came into church at the same time.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: We came in together.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: So were you friends?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: Was it there or safety in the friendship prior to well?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really look at it, was it safe or unsafe?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: We just we worked together and and we got to know each other a little bit that way.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he expressed an interest in me, and because I was coming into church, I thought maybe this will help.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe this will help, you know, the same-sex attraction to go away to be resolved.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it didn't, you know, it it it was a it was a wrong decision.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: The marriage was doomed from the beginning.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I there were so many unresolved issues in my life that it there's no way really it could have worked.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, you know, I think people innocently and with good intentions encourage you just haven't met the right man or you haven't met the right woman, so so on and so forth.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but for me it it didn't work.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it wasn't all my fault, it takes two to tangle sometimes.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: I did want to get some counseling and and so forth, but uh yeah, it did not work.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um for those 16 years, I uh I tried to do everything I could spiritually speaking.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I prayed faithfully.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I consider myself an intercessor.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know how to touch God.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, God has used me in the gifts of the spirit, some of them.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: So when I say that I was sold out to God, I was doing everything I knew, reading my Bible, being involved.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was not helping.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: And the attraction, it wasn't helping the attraction.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: So 16 years in, after the divorce, after living for God with everything I had in me, uh, and this constant gnawing at me, this constant hounding me, so to speak.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I remember the last time I was in church, I was at the altar, and I felt literally like I was bleeding out emotionally.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Probably because I at that time I hadn't received any therapy or anything, but there was, I just felt like there was this wound that was just oozing out of me.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I did not know where to go for help within the church.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to talk about it.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was embarrassed.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's still a stigma around it a little bit.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're getting better with it though.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and my pastor at the time, it was my second pastor, he did try to help me a little bit, but it wasn't really what I needed.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: I needed some deep therapy, which I did get one while I was out of church.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I even attended a conference in Toronto, Canada, that he was so kind and gracious to send me to.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was called Exodus International.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: At that time, it was the largest Christian organization that uh ministered to people wanting help with unwanted same-sex attraction.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I was there for a week and that was that was good.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I learned some things there and uh thought, well, I'm not the only one.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a whole bunch of people here that want the same kind of help and they're Christian.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't apostolic people, but they were Christian people.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So um that last time at the altar, um I just I told God, I I can't do this anymore because I'm obviously doing something wrong.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that in back in those days, it was preached over the pulpit that if you had those kind of feelings, something was wrong with you.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: You need to get you need to get rid of that spirit, you need to pray more, you need to fast more, you need to read your word more, you need to be more consecrated, more dedicated.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And for 16 years, I gave everything.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: And what was your experience at that time with deliverance?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because we we don't do a lot of deliverance ministry.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's pretty mainstream in Christian, you know, in the Christian world and other denominations.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think um, I don't know if I can articulate it the way I want to, but you know, we kind of believe that we get the Holy Ghost, and that is all the deliverance, and Jesus is just gonna come in and clean house and voila, it's done.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think there's many other deeper levels, like, you know, um, that is taught that we don't always teach much about generational sin um and word curses that don't ever get unplugged, and just, you know, so many things besides the trauma wound, which which clearly is a large part of it.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: But um what did in those 16 years, did you ever hear about deliverance?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Did anybody ever pray for deliverance that those attachments and and the soul ties and everything that comes with the trauma stuff ever get broken off?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: Or is do you ever hear about that now?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, let me just say this.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, probably the easiest way I can answer that.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, I never really heard about it because, like I said, what I was hearing over the pulpit were things like God did not make Adam and Steve, God made Adam and Eve.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: That was my help.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you know, you're sitting there struggling with this, wanting it to leave.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I begged God, take it, God.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want it.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is not something I ever planned on having.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's not who I want to be, it's not what I want to have.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I was as earnest as I knew to be and sincere as I knew to be.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if it were a spirit, uh, Kathy, I'm gonna tell you something.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was on fire enough for God, and I knew the word of God well enough to know that I have power and I had power at that time to rebuke and bind a spirit and cast it away from me.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right, okay.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: So for you, it didn't feel like that at all, which is where a lot of people would go to.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but that's the way it leaned back then, right?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: So well, I think that's that's what yeah, I think that's what most people would think and understand because it is so contrary to what God does create, right?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: But we are born in sin and shaped in iniquity, and there's so much that comes along with that.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and that was a very good way that you described it.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: We do believe many times, uh, maybe not so much now, but back in the day, because I'm a I'm a baby boomer, I'm an old schooler.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: But back in the day, we were kind of taught Jesus is everything and anything you'll need for everything and anything.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: And we almost made it feel like it was sacrilegious to not believe that way, right, or to have depression or anxiety or any kind of life event that caused something other than jubilance.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: That you need that you would need any other help or situation.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, yep, right.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I believe that when I left church, that's when I got involved in therapy, it was a godsend to me.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I believe it with all my heart.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: And you had said that you had wanted to call therapy that day you got angry, but was that after you had left church then?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: It therapy net it didn't occur to you before to go to therapy, or was it frowned upon in the church?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because there was a time that was and still is in some circles frowned upon a little bit.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I mentioned it to my pastor at the time, and I'm not criticizing him by this because I'm sure he had my best interest at heart.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it kind of complicated it for me because he wanted to talk to my the counselor, he wanted to talk to the therapist, and I felt that was a bit intrusive for me.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: I know that they do the best they can with what they know.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, we just we don't know what we don't know, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's right, that's right.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: We have to learn.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a criticism at all.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just back in the day, that's the way that it was.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, yes.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: So you got therapy after you left.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, so what was the deciding factor?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Did you say that you were at the altar and you just told the Lord that you didn't know how to do this anymore?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know how to deal with this.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: I God, I don't know.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Something must be wrong with me.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's what a lot of people do that leave our church because of their same-sex attraction or their gender identity confusion.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: They live for God, the best way they know to live for God.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: But if it does not leave, or they're not getting some relief from it because of the way that it has been uh presented over the pulpit many times, they internalize it.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: There must be something wrong with me.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I did start to really feel that way.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: There must really be something wrong with me that this isn't going away.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I I slipped away because of it.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: So you just ultimately didn't feel good enough.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so did you feel like God didn't love you enough?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: Did you feel like God wasn't answering you, or did you just feel hopeless, like you had no power to change it?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like, because I'm I'm asking that question because I think the one thing that the enemy attacks us with often is what are we doing wrong?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what I heard you say.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's people that don't even have this particular struggle, even when God is silent and they're going through a wilderness season, we all tend to look at ourselves and wonder, Lord, have I done something wrong?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: Am I doing something wrong?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: How come you're not talking?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: How come nothing's changing?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's our inst our instinct.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so if we feel unloved by the Lord because somehow it's our fault, I can see somebody moving away from him because they don't feel worthy, you know.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, um, or I've also heard people be frustrated because nothing is changing, and so they lose hope that anything ever will change, which makes God, you know, not the God of the impossible.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so they give up on him, which are two separate mindsets, and that's why I just wanted to clarify with you.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think for you it was probably not as cut and dry as that?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for me, I think that I was just so frustrated.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: God, I I I I don't know what else to do.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: How do I keep living for you and feel good about myself when this is not leaving?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: Did you feel like he loved you?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: Did were you confident in his love for you?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Kathy, honestly, I I don't really even think I was thinking about that.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I I don't know why, but I I just I just felt like to live for God and be right with God and to have this not changing and to access everything I knew to access, to have it change.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was I was just more defeated, I guess.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I was very defeated, very defeated.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: I felt very dis very, very defeated.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: With my efforts.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: I can see that, yeah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: So did you just w decide, okay, I'm done?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm yeah, I I just thought, you know, God, I I just can't do this anymore.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: This it's not working.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know what else to do.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: So what did you do after that?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I did, I left church.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was out of church for 12 years, and probably while I was out of church, I would say, I don't know, maybe five, six years, maybe later than that.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't remember all the dates, but uh as I was driving home from the store that day, I did.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: I went home and I opened up the yellow pages and I and I looked at the therapist and tried to see maybe kind of a little bit what their uh specialty was or their area of expertise was, so to speak.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I called this one one lady, and uh she when she got back with me, I just told her, I said, Look, I I'm angry constantly.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: I want to find out why.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I'm not sure, but I think it probably has something to do with my childhood.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I started to see her on a regular basis, and uh uh she did she all she wanted to talk about was my childhood, and I got a little bit frustrated because I thought, man, I I don't mind talking about my childhood a little bit, but lady, I'm here because I'm mad all the time.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now don't make me mad.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but as I continued on and she knew what she was doing, as I continued on, uh it was the first time I had the opportunity to get all this out that had been inside of me for so very long and talk about what had happened to me as a child, that made me able to start connecting some dots.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah not regarding my same-sex attraction or my gender identity confusion, because that's not why I went, but but the anger in particular, but all those connecting dots started to help me address these issues as well, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, therapy was a lifesaver, it was a lifesaver, it helped me to know and understand that things weren't my fault.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I at one time was an innocent bystander, right?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, and actually when I came to realize that it didn't have to happen and that it did happen because of all of the irresponsible adults that were in my life, yeah, it it enraged me.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I bet.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: I bet it did, yeah.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: It enraged me because it was my food.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: It didn't help your anger, it made it worse.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: But at least there was some righteousness in that, you know, uh a righteous anger that gave you um some justification to some degree.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: It was validating, yeah, yeah, of course.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was validating for the first time in my life, and at that time I I was I was older, I was in my late 30s or maybe early 40s, so I had carried this all my life, yeah.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh it was it was a relief, it was a release to get it out and and to finally start realizing it's not my fault.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I wanted to blame anybody, it's your fault that you're not, but but to realize you carry that, yeah.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: It really wasn't my fault, you know.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I spent a lot of money.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I invested in myself financially with with the therapy that I got, and I'm glad I did.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was a very, very good decision that I made.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And in the ministry, Alpha Ministries, I when I work with people, I say, get all the help you can get.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you can afford therapy, get therapy.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a reader, read some books, you know, get online.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: We got there's so much available for us online now that's incredible.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um just get as much help, join a support group, you know, just get as much help as you possibly can.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so when I came back to church after being out of church for 12 years, I had already resolved a lot of things that I had left.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Church for, yeah.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was the main thing.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: During that 12 years, Cindy, were you talking to the Lord?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: Had you could had you stayed in touch with him or had you just stopped?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: I had my baptismal certificate hang by my bed wherever I lived.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: I had my Bible was on my nightstand.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I loved God, Kathy.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: I never stopped loving God.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that was never the issue for me at all.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think for most people that leave church, they wake up one day and say, That's it, God, I don't love you anymore.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I believe I think they reach a situation or they're dealing with a circumstance that literally they do not know how to overcome it.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: I I believe that too.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: I I believe that most of our prodigals do love God.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: They just don't know how to overcome what they're going through.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: And the narrative that has been given to them if they were raised in church isn't working, you know, and it's not that God doesn't work, He absolutely does.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's just that sometimes God is a God of process, and everyone else is expecting immediate overnight change, and and that's generally not the way it works or looks.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, so that makes me happy, you know, just as a human that you remained connected to him throughout that time.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the Lord had his hand on me through the whole 12 years.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and you know, there were some situations while I was out of church that I know some people, a lot of church people wouldn't agree, but I know because I experienced it.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I still was when I came back into church, um I still my same-sess abtraction was still there because I was in a relationship while I was out of church.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there was a point in time that I remember where I was when I thought this.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was sitting on my bed and I told the Lord, I said, God, if you do not do one of two things, I'm gonna go out and blow my buy a gun, I'm gonna blow my brains out.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Either remove all of these same sex attractions that I have and I've dealt with since I was a young, young woman, or let me get up from this bed and let me not worry about it anymore.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just go about my life.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I got up and I went about my life as a gay person.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: So go ahead.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that was God's grace.
• 47:00
  unknown: Absolutely.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: We know that that was not God's divine and perfect will for my life, but I did mean it.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people that struggle with their sexualities, Kathy, there's so much that goes into it.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's more than just a story they tell, they live through it.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, right.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to experience God in that process.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: He is very real to us right in our in our depravity, uh, in our I I mean, I I used to talk to God knowing what I was gonna do next, you know, but I was talking to him through it because my heart was never to leave him.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: I just really didn't know know how to live.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: But he reveals himself to us and loves us through all of that.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: And you really don't know that unless you experience it.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: You have to experience it.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I know what you're saying.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: I I I believe I believe what you're saying.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, I I get that.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: I really get that.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that that solidified for me that when I came back to church and I realized that all the same-sex attraction had not left, um, all the gender identity confusion that has completely left.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was I was gonna have you.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I know what that is defined as, but I think the average person does not know how those are are connected.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe you can just break down the difference between gender identity confusion versus same-sex attraction because they're all so enmeshed, I think, in the culture today.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: So it might help just bringing some definition to play.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: So gender identity confusion is when um for myself, I'm I'm a female, but I didn't feel female.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: I felt I felt much more male.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so while I was in the gay lifestyle, I dressed like a man.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I bought all my clothes in the men's department.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I wore men's cologne.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my hair was about an inch long around my head.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: I had it, I had a haircut about every two weeks, and I was mistaken for a man often.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um so you really saw yourself.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: You weren't just dressing apart, you really saw yourself as that.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I felt I felt it.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I felt yeah, I I felt, I mean, I knew I was a female.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't hate that I was a female or anything.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's story is a little different.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I just didn't feel female.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how are you a woman?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: How do you become a woman?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: What is a woman?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do you you see what I'm saying?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: I Right Right, right, right.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: You could not relate whatsoever to what that meant.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think my childhood with my mother cutting my hair short, making comments to me, being raised with my brothers, dressing me like a boy, all the abuse, da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: It just complicated, it just fed into making it this.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I can totally see that.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas same-sex attraction just basically means you're sexually attracted to someone of your own sex.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that makes sense for a lot of people.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_03: The gender identity stuff, I think, because of everything we've seen politically, can be really confusing to those that don't maybe know a lot of people or ever really asked any questions.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's helpful.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that was gonna be my next question is what changed your gender identity from a uh revelation standpoint for you, um, even though the same sex attraction didn't change, what was it that helped you see that you were not, you know, you weren't confused about that anymore?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: I believe it was a miracle from God.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think maybe all the years of therapy, of course, and uh, but I believe it was a miracle because so when that left, were you then because you said when you first came to church you recognized the difference from a female to from a male, it was very obvious for you.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: Was there any desire for you to dress more like a female in those early years?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um but internally you still wrestled with feeling like you were a male until God removed that.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, I I I lost you midway there as far as understanding what you were asking.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: So when you first came into church, um, and you had said I really the line of distinction between male and female was very clear.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would imagine at that time you were dressing and living more like a female before you left the church, right?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, yes, yeah.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: At that time, did you still feel confused in your gender identity?
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: But you were just being compliant with the rules of the church.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: And then when you when you backslid and left, you um you resumed your role in the gender identity that you related to as a male.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then somewhere along the way, coming back to the Lord, that all left.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: It just it's gone.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't even believe I used to feel that way.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: Literally.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: You like my flowers?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I know I noticed them when I met you at the conference, you know.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so is that something?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, in Pentecost, we're used to wearing fancy hairdo's, and we always have picks or brettes or something in our hair just as part of our accessory for fashion.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I wasn't sure if that was part of being Pentecostal and just accessorizing your hair, or if that's a real statement that you intentionally do because of where you've been.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't intentionally do it because of that.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just like them.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I guess to show really how far I've come because Yeah.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: Who would have known, right?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, who would have known?
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's wonderful, Cindy.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's really wonderful.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that day you got up and you went back to church, and the Lord you you stopped trying to change your sexual attraction.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: You just began to accept yourself and who you were in that.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: Is that an accurate statement?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: It the way I came back to church, Kathy, probably is so detailed as far as I don't really know how to, it was such a uh supernatural thing that God was doing with me.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't really I don't really know how to explain it, but I'll just say that when I did come back to church, that I I had there was a relationship that I had established with the Lord outside of church that by the time I came back, um I decided that irregardless, I was gonna live for God no matter what.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was gonna do what his word says to do.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: And and that really had nothing to do with the building that you went to or a denomination that you went to.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: That had everything to do with your independent walk with God.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, that's I think that's between me and God.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's between me and God.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I I really think that's key for backsliders who haven't come back to a church building yet.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I always say, or I say often rather, just start talking to him.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, establish that communication between you and him at home because that was the same for me.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: I had a really good, strong relationship with the Lord before I ever walked back in the doors of a UPC church with the intention of attending because I had so much pain there, you know.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: So it was important for me to already feel whole with the Lord, you know, before I attempted to expose myself to that next level of fear and vulnerability.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm happy that you said that because I I do think that that's really important for people, um, whether they they're coming to church or not, to just start that conversation.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because the Lord will meet us in our home wherever we're at, he'll meet us there and and begin to um begin to heal us.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't mind, I like to kind of put a plug-in for my church because I had been away from I got saved in Merced, California.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um when I came back, I had been gone from Merced for 20 years, but out of church for 12.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: I had gone to another church for a while.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they did nothing but embrace me.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is this is the Apostolic Tabernacle Church in Merced.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my pastor's wife was still living, her name was Agnes Yandress, and she was overjoyed.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: She she said, Cindy, I can't believe you're back.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: And one day when I was visiting her, when I came back, she said, Cindy, why did you leave church?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: Please tell me.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I opened up and I shared my childhood with her, and I told her what I've got involved with, you know, the gay lifestyle and so forth.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh when I was done talking, she she was holding my hand this whole time.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: She just she patted my hand and she said, Cindy, I'm glad you're back.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: She said, and I love you.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Why don't you start thinking about starting something to help other people because they deserve help just like anybody else?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: She's the one that really, and you know, that she mentioned it several times before I really took it to heart and thought, you know, I think I think I'm gonna do this.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's so empowering, especially so soon of coming back.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Elder Bill and Sister Agnes Yanders, they were wonderful people and they they loved souls, they didn't care where you were or where you came from, who you were, what color your skin was, or anything like that.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: They cared about your soul.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that that's definitely the difference maker, I think.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: It really is.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: You can tell it, you can feel it, you just know when someone really has a burden for the lost.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can tell if it's genuine or not.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: So okay.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: So take us to where you're at now.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know there's layers and there's a lot of depth that we're kind of skipping over.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_03: I like all the nitty-gritty details.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um because I think it speaks to the way our minds process, the emotions that we wrestle with, you know, um, in how we make decisions and just overall our needs as humans, you know, that we have to overcome and learn to die to ourselves, you know.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so those aspects of the journey are so critical, I think, to hear other people talk about, but because, you know, I I say this a lot, I said it earlier.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know what we don't know until we learn.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's so many times I will glean something from what someone else says that makes sense.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, okay, that's what that meant, or that's how that looks, you know.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I like the details.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I will share this with you regarding the time that I was out of church, um, regarding that point.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, because of my dynamic, that I never really experienced what a family unit was all about.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a real family unit.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a loving family unit.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: A loving family unit.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um for myself, when I got with my partner at the time, she had four beautiful children.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: One of them was already out on her own, so three were at home.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we became a family, and I'm sharing this part because people today that are going to be coming into our churches and they're starting to come.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that are come that are coming from a gay lifestyle, many of them are giving up families, you know, it's not something that's gonna just happen overnight, you know, like this.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a process for people, as it was for me.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh I think it's important that the church, well, let me just back up a little bit.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was with my partner for probably close to seven years.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: I got very close to her children, and uh, you know, we just we lived life, you know, basically is what we did.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um she did end up leaving me to be with a man.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's what really triggered me on my journey back to the Lord, to the church.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I people do feel many times that being gay is okay with the Lord.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: I had reached that place in my heart, you know, because of that prayer I prayed on my bed that I shared with you.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, it was obvious to me when she left and took the kids.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it almost killed me.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was devastating.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I started to rethink things, you know.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh God, what are you trying to show me here?
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: What am I missing here?
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: Where did I miss it?
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: So on and so forth.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's was really the motivator that brought me back, started me back.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the reason I wanted to share this part is because I believe with all of my heart, if my church family, even today, did not embrace me as family.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's what we are.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're the family of God.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in the word of God, it talks about us being a household.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think I could have made it back.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: I really don't I don't think so because I'm still not close to my family.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: That dynamics never that's never changed.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and now my long what I thought was going to be a lifelong relationship has crumbled and and is no longer.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: So people they have to feel like they belong somewhere, yeah.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, and you know, Cindy, I don't I don't mean to interrupt, but go ahead.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_03: I I I have heard that from others.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm an introvert, and so I don't have a whole I don't have that same need, I guess, and probably the I I think there's a lot of my own history that contributes to some of that as well, I would say.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um but there are so many that really do need to feel the connection.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I've heard people that have left church because they don't feel connected to the body.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and as we have had people come in, I mean we've I feel like our church has been in revival for the last several years.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_03: We're having just so many new people coming in and families getting established.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I feel like I have a hair in my nose.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um they really need that, like because for many, I just had a friend come in um a year ago, and she never really had any kind of church environment.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_03: And she went through a I think a breakup after 18 years, 15 years, a very long time of a breakup.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_03: So her entire life was changing, and she was a fish out of water and didn't know the first thing, didn't know how to live.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_03: She looked up what it meant to be a Pentecostal on on um the internet and started trying to change all these things about herself just to acclimate to fit in without really having any kind of understanding from any other place, you know, just because she was so desperate to find a place of belonging.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and I wonder, number one, how do we identify that in people as they're coming in?
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_03: And and what what do we do to give that to them?
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm somebody that if I don't know what the need is, I don't know how to help.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes when I do know what the need is, I don't always have a lot to give because my own life is so very busy, right?
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and so but there are people who do have time to do that and and ways to connect.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I would love to be that person and I am working on it, but but you know, just practicality, right?
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: There's just people that are better suited for hospitality and all of those things, but I don't know that we always identify that in the body at all, even with each other.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_03: We we don't really know each other very well.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess what do we do to fix that?
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_03: How what do you see in your guys' environment?
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: We gotta we've gotta
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_03: a wonderful bishop bishop sam emory he's amazing and pastor steve caballero he's also amazing and they're they're uh what's the word um they realize what you just said is very important so we're doing small groups i don't know if you've ever heard of that but small groups you know that's that's very that's a nice intimate uh way especially newer people new people um or people that are coming back to the Lord uh because they're not in a congregation where there's two or three hundred people yeah they're kind of just floating around where do I fit in so and I think also uh Kathy you you made the comment about yourself that that's you know you're more of an introvert so but just a one-on-one interaction with someone if they know that you're engaged with them and that you really care I mean I can feel that from people whether they're really present yeah it it means so much so it doesn't have to be a big big deal it doesn't have to be a something that you know we lay awake and worry about at night but when we cross cross somebody's path if we can show them that uh connection and that's what I try to do with whoever I I cross in the church I may not know we're getting a lot of new people in our church so yeah I think we do a good job but but we I think people need more than just saying hi and connecting they right you know and I think we just don't always I don't always recognize who needs what you know um because I think what you said is very true.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_03: If if you didn't feel like you had belonging there you think you very easily could have died and and um I I know that it's critical and I guess I just don't want to I don't want to miss any of those people I want everyone to feel like they do have a sense of belonging and I you know so I guess I'm just thinking out loud um as we do see more and more and more people coming in it's you know churches get bigger and bigger and it's really easy to to things can fall through the crack not because anybody doesn't care it's just having those systems in place to identify who's what you know yeah we have a lot of ministries within our church too so because people are coming from all different kinds of walks of life so that's helpful as well but I think uh Kathy you need to give yourself a little bit more credit because what you're doing with this podcast is phenomenal.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well I mean I I connect with people I just I'm not highly social outside of you know um and it it's not because I don't want to be I really enjoy it when I when I do have um time but I just yeah it it's just something else but um yeah I love people I really do and I really do enjoy connecting that with them you know yeah so anyways um so I guess let me see how I can segue into the next section.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you started your ministry how long after you got into church coming back for the second time yeah a year after I came back so it was 2005 um started slowly and uh sister agnes said Cindy um she had two twin sons and one of her sons's Paul she volunteered him he'll help you and I said well how does he feel about that well I talked to him and he was fine with it um so we made some phone calls and I researched a little bit how to start a ministry and so on and so forth and uh so we had one night where uh his twin brother Nathan was our pastor at the time and he allowed me a whole evening to introduce the ministry and we had a nice display of all of the resources that that we had been able to uh get together focus on the family made tremendous amount of uh uh gave us lots and lots of books for free didn't have to pay any probably about 400 worth of books and material that they gave us um so we had all those on display and it was on an off church night but I think there were like 80 people that came and for an off church night that was a wonderful yeah that was a wonderful yeah turn turnout and Pastor Nathan at that time he formally endorsed the ministry into our church and so it's been up and running now for it's been 21 years.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Wow and then how how long ago did you get licensed and what what made you decide to become licensed with the organization?
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great question yes the whole reason I I wanted to get licensed was to qualify this ministry because it's a very controversial ministry of course um I'm not married that not that that's a qualification for a ministry but well sometimes it can be but it helps yeah a single female you know it it complicates conversations just because you're a I mean I deal with that too just because you're a single female yes it can so yeah I just uh and I felt it I felt to do it I felt very strongly to do it so I went through the process and uh bishop uh Cantrell who is our Western district superintendent uh who's a wonderful man of God he and I had a bit of a relationship because he had called me years ago asking me about alpha ministries and so forth so he was aware of alpha ministries so that worked in my favor so when I went before the board he already knew about alpha ministries and he knew about me so he he went to bat for me I didn't really have to say that much but um yeah it was it was great you know it was well received and um it uh it it went very well they're they're behind it 100% the Western district board so tell us about alpha ministries what do you do where um who are your clients are you in other churches has have you had other churches um come on board with you or do you ever speak at other churches or what does all of that look like yes so through the years we've promoted alpha ministries here and there um but most of it Kathy has been word of mouth I mean I get calls from pastors and I don't even know how they found out about us and a lot of the a lot of the clientele that I have worked with and continue to work with they just hear about us somehow so we don't do anything specifically as far as promoting it um I haven't gone to other churches to speak but if I were invited to I would um it's something something that I would be very open to um I don't know why God hasn't allowed that door to open for me um I've prayed about that in fact that was the reason why I was so um excited about being on your podcast because um it's my first time to really share publicly not just my testimony but about alpha ministries and put it out there but everything in God's timing God knows the timing for everything.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well you know as I would think about backsliders and having had the conference and you know knowing what's out there I feel like you know I I definitely have a burden to deal and talk to pastors you know because I think everybody thinks or everyone at least feels like they're gonna be okay having a backslider come back to church but we are going to appear in many shapes and sizes and in all kinds of ways and that will and does sometimes upset the apple cart.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I have felt like there is a need to really prepare pastors um or at least have some tools available for them you know as they see backsliders starting to come home and and resources actually to connect them with so that there is some sort of camaraderie there.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_03: But um but I would think the same for you like there's you know my pastor is a great example I I heard him talk with Ben when he was here and he was really transparent and he said I I have to tell you I can handle the stories about a guy shooting someone and going to prison and coming back to church but this subject is something I've never been acquainted with I don't even know how to talk about it.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know how to engage with it because it was just so outside of his willhouse.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know and it was it was a really wonderful conversation that they got to have but it made me think how many other pastors feel the same way because many pastors in our organization have never backslid they've never been in the world to um relate you know they they can have empathy they can have compassion but it is a different language I think often you know with certain lifestyle experiences.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would think for you there would be a huge opportunity to provide resources and have conversations and maybe just even a seminar day to equip pastors and youth pastors for that matter in what to expect and how to approach it and what to say and whatnot you know because again that they it it's just not that they can't it's just maybe an absence of experience.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things regarding people coming from a gay lifestyle is the sexual component.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think perhaps there's and I understand that you don't have to be graphic you know to talk about these types of issues and I don't think that's appropriate.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know I I think that things can be talked about discreetly and properly but they don't have to be talked about graphically.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's interesting that you just said this about a seminar because we have a team they're the people that came with me to the Unshackled conference and we we've been meeting together now for probably a little over a year because we're working on getting a conference together um and what the mission statement for the conference is anchoring and equipping apostolics and anyone interested with a deeper understanding of biblical truths and teachings regarding gender and sexuality and this conference will be open to whoever wants to come.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah pastors youth pastors uh backsliders people that are living a gay lifestyle people that want to come back that are you know so we're gonna really promote it once we get all the details uh taken care of and so forth so that's gonna be very well promoted um but you know we fear what we don't understand yes and that's a that's a very uh normal common thing but the reason why I think it's important now for churches to start asking these questions which I'm always very open to is because these folks are gonna start coming into our churches they already are even they are I don't know you're probably uh familiar with the word uh detransitioners now these are people yeah they're gonna start coming too so yeah we're afraid to talk about some of these things but actually we shouldn't fear it because our saints and people struggling with these things they're talking about it um and they're wondering where can they go for help.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the more we get it out there that there's a ministry available for them you know I think that's important.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And as far as what I do is I I do one-on-one counseling with people um I have lots of resources there's a one resource I refer people to is called Restored Hope Network and they're not apostolic but they are Christian and the founder of the ministry used to live a gay lifestyle she's a woman they have conferences and at these conferences they address all these issues and so that's something for people that they can plug into there's help there's help available and of course my testimony as I've shared with you God did remove all of the gender identity confusion but he did not remove all of the same sex attraction in my life people people don't know how they can come back to God and still live for God if God does not remove all that well God can do it.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can be an overcomer if you're baptized in Jesus' name and filled with the Holy Ghost you can be an overcomer right you can't you can you can overcome anything and basically what the word overcome means or being an overcomer it just simply means that it doesn't get the better of you anymore.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel hounded by it anymore I don't feel like it runs me around it doesn't boss me around it doesn't tell me you know this is the way you're gonna live I don't deal with any of that anymore.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_03: Your flesh isn't in charge anymore.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_03: Your spirit is and your spirit is submitted to God.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_01: It is submitted to God to the degree that God if that's your will and you're not going to remove all of it okay you know um I I wish you know that it would be a different way but God has his reasons and we have to look at a lot of things in life like that that don't go our way right so that's the main thing that that's the main mission for me that I would like to get out there for people that have left church because they struggle with their sexualities if God doesn't completely remove all of it you can still live for God victoriously and it sometimes our churches will tell people if you come to God it's all going to change you're gonna get the white picket fence and you're gonna you know meet meet the prince or meet the princess and ride off into the sunset and be happily ever after well what if that doesn't happen so why are we telling people this if it doesn't happen okay it doesn't happen.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_01: But we don't tell a drug addict if they're still once in a while tempted by drugs or they still have a craving for drugs well you're not really living for God.
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well yes they are if they're not taking drugs right right right right they're not giving into yeah so you know we don't know some of these answers I mean I don't know everything I I right I don't I don't have the mind of God over everything but I know what God's done for me the last 22 years.
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't lived that lifestyle I don't want to live that lifestyle um I think probably because unfortunately I made made a bad decision and I did leave church and I experienced what it has to offer has nothing to offer me I want what I want in my life is exactly what I'm living.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you know that's what I tell people you know they they say we'll say if I come back Cindy what if my same sex attraction doesn't change I said well it doesn't change you live for God anyhow.
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and you get and you get help you see I've gotten help though Kathy I've gotten the therapy I do a lot of reading um I do a lot of research I help myself I don't I don't feed that just because that hasn't all left I don't feed it and I take care of myself and I help myself every way I can yeah so and that's critical I think um what you said is you know God begins to fill the places that the world never could you know no amount of relationships no amount of sex no amount of anything ever fills the place that God fills in us and and um ultimately I think that's why we serve him and that's why we love him you know because it's not easy to be a Christian there it it it comes with hardship um but the hardship is not harder in the face of having that relationship with the Lord you know because nothing can compare to that so exactly it's worth the battle it's worth a fight because what we gain in return is everything.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely and as I shared with you the other day in the book of Revelation uh there are 11 times the book of Revelation talks about the overcomer is gonna make it into heaven the overcomer is going to make it into God's kingdom.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah we're gonna have to be overcomers regardless of the fight yeah yeah yeah 100% yeah yeah yeah I agree I I yeah I totally agree and I think we've just used that term so um casually in the church world what does it mean to be an overcomer but sometimes that's a that's an everyday fight you know choosing to get up and praise God and when you'd rather just lay in your bed and sleep because you're depressed you know um right or or you know isolating or feeding your flesh you know overcoming means something different to everyone but to me it's doing what you know is right regardless of what you feel that's good you know whatever you you feel like you want to do but um I'm I'm very happy to meet you Cindy oh I'm happy to meet you Kathy and I and I I love what God has done in your life you know to me it's just another story of falling in love with Jesus.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and um absolutely and I'm I'm glad to know this resource is available I I think we're going to need it more and more and more as the days go by um I know what we've seen God do in our church in this in this demographic and I think he's you know the church is not um what's the word you know we we're gonna have everything the world has we're just gonna we're it's just gonna be different when it's God when God's involved in it you know oh yeah absolutely sure yeah I don't know Kathy if you're uh able or comfortable to share maybe some of the resources the pictures that I sent you yeah that so um I was gonna end with that um oh okay be able to do it side by side with you just because of the way we're doing the podcast but at the end of the video um we do have some resources to share with the folks at home um that that Cindy had brought there's a couple of books and such so um we'll share those resources we will I'll also put the link uh to her website and our contact information um in the comment section so if you're listening to this uh via any podcast audio um just look at the comments all that information will be there and if you're watching this via YouTube um again all the links and everything will be in the bio section so Cindy the way I usually end the podcast is um what would you like to say to anyone out there who is a backslider who is struggling in same-sex attraction or gender confusion um what would you say to them I would say to them if they want to come back God's going to help you come back and that you can make it I'm open you know they can find me on Facebook if they want to you know and send me a message and I'll be in touch with you I'll help you all I can and if I can do it anybody can do it.
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a love if you have a love for God and you want to come back don't worry about the details God has a way of working it out just take the step take the step take the step it's doable it's it's doable the world would say but Cindy you're denying such a big part of who you are Jesus Christ said deny yourself.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it's not like it's it's not like it's a big surprise christianity Christianity is all about uh he increases I'm supposed to decrease right right with that and it's not like you missing out on something either right because he replaces it with so much that is true that is a good point right there.
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_03: Everything I've left behind God has replaced it with something that means so much more like it's it's not a sacrifice Right.
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it becomes a desire.
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_03: It becomes um contentment and joy.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_03: And peace and things that like like it's it's an easy trade-off, I think.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_03: But you have to get through the process to really understand that.
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_03: And the devil will throw your whole future at you and tell you, oh, look at what it's gonna take, and look how much you have to give up.
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_03: You have to just take the step and live one day at a time.
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_03: That cliche is very true.
• 1:28:35
  SPEAKER_01: It is true, and it's worth it because I do have a family now.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_01: I spend all my holidays with a beautiful family that's in our church.
• 1:28:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've been with them now for about they literally just like adopted me.
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they're a beautiful, yeah, they're a beautiful family.
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I love them.
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_01: They have children, and I'm close to the children, and uh it I'm I'm blessed.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I am very, very blessed.
• 1:28:58
  SPEAKER_03: And what would you say to the parent or the pastor who has a child out there in this?
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_03: I know there are many pastors, um, whether in our denomination or other denominations who have children that are living this lifestyle.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_03: What would you say to them?
• 1:29:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the resources that you'll show when we're done, those are great resources, you know, and there are some that will help anybody.
• 1:29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um for families, especially.
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's one that's called When Homosexuality Hits Home, and another one, Someone I Love Is Gay.
• 1:29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So those are great books.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And for pastors, this is a really good one, Kathy.
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Can you see this book that I'm holding up here?
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, one 101 Frequently Asked Questions.
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_03: I can't see the rest.
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Lift the book up about homosexuality, Michael Hill.
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:29:50
  SPEAKER_03: Good.
• 1:29:50
  SPEAKER_01: He used to live he used to live a gay lifestyle, and he is one now that is married and he has a couple of kids.
• 1:29:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that's a fantastic book for people that just want some basic information and basic knowledge.
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very informative and easy to understand.
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_03: So again, for everyone at home, um, Cindy Mayo, M-A-Y-O, you can find her on social media.
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_03: And her ministry is Alpha Ministries.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh she's part of the Merced Church.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_03: So um thank you very much for taking the time.
• 1:30:27
  SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate it, and I'm excited about what God is doing in your ministry, and of course, in your life, which you've been living for a while now, but um, I'm very happy to have gotten to meet you at the conference and connect.
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Kathy.
• 1:30:41
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it, Kathy.
• 1:30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate meeting you, and thank you again for this opportunity.
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_01: It means a lot to me.
• 1:30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, God bless you, Cindy, and um, and I'll be in touch, okay?
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds good, Kathy.
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_03: God bless.
• 1:30:54
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you for everybody for watching.
• 1:30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we'll see you next time.
• 1:30:58
  SPEAKER_03: Bye-bye.
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_00: We are so glad you joined us.
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you.
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible.
• 1:31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Visit our website at theredeemedbackslider.org.
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you will tune in for our next episode.