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Space-Time Dragging, Martian Rovers & Stellar Discoveries | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights &... · Space News Today

• 0:00
  Space Nuts is taking a bit of a break at
• 0:02
  the moment. Uh Fred and I will be back
• 0:04
  uh in the not too distant future with
• 0:06
  fresh episodes. In the meantime, enjoy
• 0:08
  some of uh the key episodes that we have
• 0:11
  presented over the years. Major events
• 0:14
  in astronomy and space science and we'll
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  see you real soon.
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  >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9
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  ignition sequence start.
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  >> Space nets. 5 4 3 2
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  >> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
• 0:31
  >> Space Nuts.
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  >> Astronauts Report. It feels good.
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  >> Hello once again and thank you for
• 0:37
  joining us on this edition of the Space
• 0:40
  Nuts podcast and my name's Andrew
• 0:43
  Duckley, your host. And with me for
• 0:44
  episode 193 is astronomer in charge,
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  Professor Fred Watson. Hello Fred.
• 0:52
  >> Hello Andrew. I did used to be the
• 0:53
  astronomer in charge. That was my
• 0:55
  >> I thought I said astronomer at large.
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  >> Well, it's quite all right. No, it's
• 0:58
  Freudian Freudian slip.
• 1:00
  >> It's And of course, um uh that's why I
• 1:03
  became the astronomer at large because
• 1:05
  you only had to change four letters on
• 1:06
  the office door to make it come numb to
• 1:08
  you.
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  >> Yes. Yes. Um the organ and and that sort
• 1:12
  of harps on something we talked about a
• 1:14
  while ago where your organization has
• 1:16
  changed names about two or three times,
• 1:18
  but didn't change the lettering. So,
• 1:21
  didn't change the logo.
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  >> Exactly. same logo since 1991.
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  >> Okay, that's I think that's amazing. Oh
• 1:29
  dear. Very good. Now, um Fred, have you
• 1:32
  got enough toilet paper at your place?
• 1:34
  Is my big question.
• 1:36
  >> Well, it's very kind of you to ask. Um
• 1:39
  we haven't yet started tearing pages up
• 1:41
  the Astrophysical Journal to use in the
• 1:43
  bathroom.
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  >> Did you Did you hear about the Northern
• 1:45
  Territory News, uh the newspaper in
• 1:48
  Darwin? They they published an they
• 1:51
  published an addition last week with
• 1:52
  several blank pages for people.
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  >> This whole thing is just insanity at the
• 2:01
  highest level. There's so many people
• 2:03
  panicking over nothing. It's
• 2:05
  >> you might want to explain
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  >> You might want to explain the toilet
• 2:09
  paper issue though. I think most people
• 2:11
  are aware, but if you're not aware, I
• 2:12
  don't know where you've been, but uh
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  there's been a panic buy up of toilet
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  paper in Australia and there all the
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  supermarket shelves are empty. Every
• 2:20
  supermarket where I live has got no
• 2:22
  toilet paper because people have been
• 2:24
  panic buying because the prime minister
• 2:27
  said, "Stock up because you might have
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  to be isolated for a couple of weeks
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  because of the Corona virus." And
• 2:32
  everyone's freaking out about it. Well,
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  not everyone. I mean, we don't care, but
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  a lot of people are freaking out about
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  it. But I I I'm going to bring some
• 2:40
  astronomy into this, Fred.
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  >> Oh, good. I wondered where it was going.
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  >> I think this is the 2020 version of a
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  caveman seeing an eclipse and thinking
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  the world's going to end.
• 2:51
  >> Oh, probably.
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  >> That's what this is.
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  >> Yeah.
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  >> So, I think people need to take a long
• 2:57
  hard look at themselves and give
• 2:58
  themselves an uppercut, to use an
• 3:00
  Australian term, and just get on with
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  it. This is this is this is ridiculous.
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  Totally ridiculous. the the the the good
• 3:08
  news is that um people those particular
• 3:12
  people will you know they'll never need
• 3:13
  to go and buy another toilet roll again.
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  Not for eternity.
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  >> They'll get like they'll get buried with
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  the stuff.
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  >> Yeah, that's right.
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  >> I I'm suggesting that if they're going
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  to, you know, panic buy toilet paper,
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  get some baked beans and some long life
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  milk so that when you eat it, it will
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  taste a bit better.
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  >> Now, let's get down to business. Today
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  on Space Nuts, we're going to look at
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  something that scientists have
• 3:37
  discovered for the first time, and that
• 3:39
  is that spaceime is dragging. Not
• 3:42
  everywhere, but they've found that it is
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  dragging in one particular place, which
• 3:45
  sounds unusual. And what does what does
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  dragging actually mean? Uh we're also
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  going to look at a couple of uh clever
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  students um uh in terms of a name for
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  the next Martian rover. This follows on
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  from Sojourer, which I think is a great
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  name. Spirit, opportunity, curiosity.
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  So, what are they calling the next one?
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  We will tell you. And a 17-year-old
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  intern at NASA, day three on the job,
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  has found a planet six times uh or
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  nearly seven times larger than Earth. I
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  mean, how lucky is that? Uh those are
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  some of the things we'll look at today
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  on Space Nuts with Fred Watson. Let's uh
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  start off, Fred, with um the fact that
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  spaceime is dragging. What What is it
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  dragging and why?
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  uh it it's a phenomenon to do with the
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  theory of general relativity or rather
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  the general theory of relativity which
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  of course was produced by Albert
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  Einstein in 1915 uh not long after that
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  I think about three years later uh well
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  let me just step back a minute that
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  theory of course says that as soon as
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  you put matter into spaceime and
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  spacetime is really just space but with
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  a fancy name as soon as you put matter
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  into it because of course time is part
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  of it as well. Um as soon as you put
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  matter into spaceime it is distorted and
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  that distortion is what we feel as
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  gravity. Uh and that in itself is pretty
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  hard to get your head around that
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  spaceime bends because matter's there.
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  But it was about uh I think three years
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  later that two Austrian scientists
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  uh by the name of Ysef Lenser Hans
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  Taring um they worked out that uh you
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  would get a phenomenon
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  um if you have a an a massive object
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  rotating you get a phenomenon which is
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  almost a swirling of the spacetime
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  around the object. It's called frame
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  dragging. Um, and so as the the Earth
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  does it, as the Earth turns, it's not
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  only distorting the space that's hold
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  and holding us on with the the force of
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  gravity, but to a much less a much
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  lesser degree. It's also dragging the
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  the surrounding spaceime with it. Now,
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  you're looking baffled, Andrew. It's
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  just a lack of sleep because I'm worried
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  about where I'm going to get a roll of
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  toilet paper.
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  Well, just watch out. Don't drag your
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  spacetime with it when you when you find
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  it. Um, we usually anglicize uh uh Ysef
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  and Hans's names to the lens theorying
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  procession or lens theoring effect.
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  >> Okay.
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  >> Um that's um how most people speak of it
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  even though they wouldn't have called
• 6:38
  themselves that. Uh so uh okay, it has
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  been tested this theory. It was um as I
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  said I think it was 1918 when it was uh
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  when it was produced. Um but the uh the
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  the first test of it was done in the
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  early 2000s. A spacecraft called Gravity
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  Probe B was launched into orbit around
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  the Earth by NASA in collaboration I
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  think with Stanford University. Um which
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  carried on board very very sensitive
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  gyroscopes and by using those uh the
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  physicists running this the experiment
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  could detect the frame dragging of the
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  earth itself. So, it's all about subtle
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  motions in the in the the satellite. And
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  that tells you that yes, you have proved
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  because there's nothing else that would
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  give rise to those subtle motions.
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  You've proved that frame dragging is
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  true. Uh and but it's only been detected
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  around the earth. So, now cut to the
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  chase. Uh because uh for the first time,
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  uh it has now been detected in an
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  astronomical object. Uh and this is a
• 7:53
  really nice story because it it pulls
• 7:55
  together uh you know the the the
• 7:57
  fundamental physics of fa frame dragging
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  with some of the the big adventures that
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  here here in Australia we are taking
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  part in particularly in terms of radio
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  astronomy. The story goes back 20 years
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  actually Andrew
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  >> uh to the parks radio observatory uh in
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  New South Wales the very same state that
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  we are both in at the moment.
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  1 hour drive from that telescope.
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  >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You are
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  indeed. Exactly. It's just down the road
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  for you. Very very well-known uh
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  telescope. The Big Dish it's usually
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  called
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  >> and very distracting when you're driving
• 8:33
  along the highway because you you just
• 8:34
  want to look at it. But
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  >> you can't stop looking at it. I know.
• 8:37
  >> Can't help myself.
• 8:39
  >> I don't have that problem because
• 8:40
  usually when I go down there, that's
• 8:41
  where I'm going.
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  >> So, I just watch it getting bigger as
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  you get nearer to it. Um 20 years ago,
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  uh the Parks radio telescope discovered
• 8:53
  uh a a white dwarf pulsar binary system.
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  Um I'll tell you its name and then we
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  can get that out of the way. It is
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  actually I've got to magnify the screen
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  so I can read it.
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  >> You should now you're showing
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  >> PSRJ141US
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  6545. There you are. Put that in your
• 9:15
  diary. It's that's
• 9:17
  >> it already
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  >> as have I. It is a white dwarf pulsar
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  binary system. What does that mean? It
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  means you got a white dwarf star which
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  is um an object the size of the earth
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  but with the mass of a star in it made
• 9:30
  of electrons all crushed together or the
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  electrons are are the only thing that
• 9:34
  hold that hold the thing that stop the
• 9:36
  thing from collapsing. So um that is a
• 9:38
  massive object. uh around it is this
• 9:41
  pulsar which is another massive object a
• 9:44
  neutron star. Uh the the two are in
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  mutual orbits and the uh the so the
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  telescope discovered that phenomenon
• 9:55
  that the the binary system. So the
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  pulsar itself is beaming out radiation
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  from its poles. Pulsars as you know
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  because you and I have spoken about this
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  before uh effectively are extremely
• 10:06
  accurate clocks. They they basically be
• 10:09
  blip out radio radiation as they rotate.
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  That's what the parks dish detected
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  and um that they're the precision with
• 10:18
  which they do that is better than atomic
• 10:20
  clocks. They they are so regular. Um the
• 10:24
  just as one smaller piece of information
• 10:26
  in this the pulsar itself orbits the
• 10:29
  white dwarf every 4.8 hours. So it's,
• 10:33
  you know, it's a
• 10:35
  >> it's whizzing round. That's right. Um,
• 10:38
  now what has happened over the last 20
• 10:41
  years is that astronomers have been able
• 10:43
  to use this timing phenomenon,
• 10:47
  the regular timing of the pulsar to
• 10:51
  measure the pulsar's position in respect
• 10:55
  to the white dwarf.
• 10:57
  uh because essentially time accurate
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  time means accurate distance in terms of
• 11:02
  uh measuring you know the where where
• 11:04
  the pulsar is and it's that measured
• 11:07
  over 20 years that has demonstrated that
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  this frame dragging phenomenon is taking
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  place out there uh at PSR whatever it
• 11:16
  was uh J 1141 - 6545
• 11:21
  um so what what what the scientists and
• 11:24
  there's a group of scientists from many
• 11:27
  different institutions including
• 11:29
  institutions in Germany. The square
• 11:31
  kilometer array organization that is uh
• 11:35
  the headquarters of this great new
• 11:37
  telescope that we're planning the square
• 11:39
  kilometer array in western Australia and
• 11:41
  in South Africa. Uh the headquarters are
• 11:44
  in Manchester uh or near Manchester at
• 11:46
  the Jodro Bank radio observatory. One of
• 11:49
  the scientists involved with this work
• 11:51
  uh comes from that organization. Uh so
• 11:54
  that means uh he is relatively closely
• 11:57
  connected with Australia because
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  Australia is one of the host nations. uh
• 12:02
  so and and I should just mentioned that
• 12:03
  the parks dish uh plus another telescope
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  called the Malonglow observatory
• 12:08
  synthesis telescope again here in
• 12:10
  Australia uh which has been involved
• 12:12
  with this work they are both uh
• 12:14
  pathfinder telescopes for the square
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  kilometer array. So very important in in
• 12:19
  you know this this large scale project
• 12:21
  that is currently uh under construction
• 12:24
  or uh soon will be under construction.
• 12:27
  Um that's getting in the plug for SKA
• 12:30
  but the research itself as I said
• 12:32
  involves scientists from Germany,
• 12:34
  Australia, New Zealand and actually
• 12:36
  Denmark too. Um and what they've done is
• 12:39
  they've um looked at the way these
• 12:41
  pulsar signals have changed over the 20
• 12:44
  years and they find a change in the
• 12:48
  pulsar's orbit which amounts to
• 12:52
  150 kilometers. Uh and we're now talking
• 12:55
  about something that's 10,000 light
• 12:57
  years away. Andrews, being able to
• 12:59
  measure a change in orbit of 150
• 13:03
  kilometers uh at that distance is an
• 13:05
  astonishing accomplishment. But it turns
• 13:08
  out that that change is exactly what you
• 13:10
  would expect from frame dragging by the
• 13:14
  white dwarf itself. And that's the only
• 13:15
  thing that can account for it. So it is
• 13:18
  the first time that we've demonstrated
• 13:20
  this swirling of space actually beyond
• 13:22
  the earth uh beyond the earth's
• 13:24
  vicinity. And it's an important um you
• 13:26
  know a really important result which is
• 13:28
  rightly being celebrated all over the
• 13:30
  science media. Um astronomers detect
• 13:33
  distant space-time dragging for the
• 13:35
  first time.
• 13:36
  >> So the the I guess the the point of this
• 13:39
  is the massive um or the mass of this
• 13:42
  this event rather than you know you were
• 13:44
  talking about how earth does it but
• 13:46
  we're talking about something on a much
• 13:48
  larger scale.
• 13:50
  >> That's right. Yes. Well, the white dwarf
• 13:51
  itself, whilst it's probably not much
• 13:53
  bigger than the earth, it's it's its
• 13:55
  mass is much larger.
• 13:56
  >> Yeah.
• 13:57
  >> Uh and yeah, you're talking about um you
• 13:59
  know, you are talking about something
• 14:00
  happening on a on a larger scale. Um I
• 14:03
  confess that um I am not an expert on
• 14:06
  the lens searing effect. Uh but it is
• 14:09
  very interesting stuff. Uh, and when you
• 14:12
  read up about it, it's quite inspiring
• 14:14
  that, you know, all those years ago,
• 14:16
  these guys worked out that spaceime is
• 14:18
  being dragged around by the Earth.
• 14:20
  >> And if you like me and you don't want to
• 14:22
  read anything about it, there's a
• 14:24
  fabulous animation on the skat
• 14:27
  telescope.org website where you can see
• 14:31
  um, in about 1 minute and 20 seconds
• 14:33
  what they've learned over 20 years. It
• 14:35
  shows you how the uh, effect works. It's
• 14:37
  very, very good. I might give a I might
• 14:40
  give a call out to the the person who
• 14:42
  put that uh animation together, Mark
• 14:44
  Meyers, who's at Swinburn University, uh
• 14:47
  because I was in touch with him
• 14:48
  yesterday. I'm using one of his um
• 14:50
  graphics in a newsletter that I prepare
• 14:52
  and I asked him if that was all right.
• 14:55
  He said uh he was delighted to let us
• 14:58
  use it. And uh I I absolutely agree with
• 15:01
  you, Andrew. His animation, which is on
• 15:03
  that website, the skaters.org website,
• 15:06
  is terrific.
• 15:06
  >> Yes, indeed. All right, you're listening
• 15:09
  to the Space Nuts podcast. Andrew Dunley
• 15:11
  here with Fred Watson.
• 15:16
  >> Roger, you're here also.
• 15:17
  >> Space Nuts.
• 15:19
  >> Now, Fred, uh just another shout out to
• 15:21
  our patrons who support our podcast with
• 15:24
  dollars and cents. We uh thank you again
• 15:27
  for doing that. If you would like to
• 15:28
  become a patron or just look into the
• 15:30
  possibility, uh you can go to our
• 15:32
  Patreon website, patreon.com/spacenuts.
• 15:36
  All the information is there. If you
• 15:37
  would like to contribute to the program,
• 15:39
  you can set your own limit. Uh but it's
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  not mandatory. We're not asking you to
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  do it um as as a condition of listening
• 15:47
  to the podcast. If you want to go on
• 15:49
  listening to it uh as you are, that is
• 15:52
  fine, too. But uh anybody who
• 15:54
  contributes uh does get the benefit of
• 15:56
  bonus content on the Patreon website. Uh
• 15:59
  they also get the commercial free
• 16:01
  edition of the podcast uh ahead of time.
• 16:04
  So um something to consider. Anyway, um
• 16:08
  now, oh, by the way, Fred, um my uh new
• 16:11
  book,
• 16:13
  um shameless plug coming up, uh is now
• 16:16
  available for pre-order as an ebook.
• 16:19
  >> So, um have a look for that on the
• 16:22
  Amazon website. So, um that's that's
• 16:25
  pretty exciting. I
• 16:26
  >> very very pleased with how it's all
• 16:28
  turned out. Uh someone actually messaged
• 16:30
  me the other day and said, "I've ordered
• 16:32
  it. Better be good."
• 16:34
  Uh, you've got to remind us of the
• 16:36
  title, Andrew.
• 16:37
  >> It's called uh the Tyrannian Enigma. The
• 16:40
  Tyrannian Enigma. I'm starting First
• 16:42
  time I wrote that down and read it out.
• 16:44
  My tongue tripped over it and I thought,
• 16:46
  "No, this is this is too hard." But I'm
• 16:48
  getting used to it now.
• 16:50
  >> Very good.
• 16:50
  >> I've developed a couple of signapses in
• 16:52
  my brain that have got my mouth around
• 16:54
  the Tyrann in No, no, I tripped over it.
• 16:56
  But, um, yeah, have a look for it. Uh
• 16:59
  the official release date of the ebook
• 17:02
  and the paperback will be April 15
• 17:06
  and um yeah a few people have asked if I
• 17:10
  could turn it into an audio book as
• 17:12
  well. So I'll look into that. I I it's
• 17:14
  just so time consuming to create an
• 17:16
  audio book.
• 17:18
  >> Not so much the the reading and
• 17:20
  recording of but the editing. Oh my
• 17:22
  gosh, that's a nightmare. Uh having
• 17:24
  >> Well, you did that for um as mud. Yeah.
• 17:28
  >> Yeah. Yeah.
• 17:28
  >> Which was a World War I story about my
• 17:30
  grandfather in the Great War. But that
• 17:33
  that started as an audio book. So that
• 17:36
  was I sort of flipped the egg on that. I
• 17:39
  did the audio book and then wrote uh
• 17:40
  then made the paperback. But these last
• 17:43
  two I've done the other way round or
• 17:45
  haven't done the other way around. But
• 17:47
  um I'll I'll look into it. I'll just
• 17:48
  it's got to be feasible and that that
• 17:52
  sort of becomes the question. But um
• 17:55
  we'll see how the demand goes. But yeah,
• 17:57
  have a look for it. Um Hugh tells me
• 17:59
  he's going to put it on our um
• 18:01
  byes.com/spacenuts
• 18:03
  page, so you might be able to pre-order
• 18:05
  through there. I haven't checked. Uh
• 18:07
  now, let's get down to a couple of
• 18:09
  things involving students, Fred. These
• 18:11
  are um exciting stories. I particularly
• 18:14
  like this one, which involves the naming
• 18:16
  of the next Mars rover. Now, we've heard
• 18:19
  of Sojourer and Spirit and Opportunity
• 18:22
  and Curiosity.
• 18:24
  uh some of which have gone above and
• 18:26
  beyond the call of duty. Uh but um that
• 18:30
  they aren't the last rovers. There will
• 18:32
  be future rovers and u it looks like
• 18:34
  some students have got involved in the
• 18:36
  naming of the next one. Well, that's
• 18:38
  right. It was um uh uh you know I think
• 18:42
  this is what NASA does normally with its
• 18:45
  rovers. Uh it it puts out um a
• 18:48
  competition uh to uh actually to school
• 18:53
  students uh and says suggest names for
• 18:57
  our next rover. And of course the next
• 18:59
  rover is what's been called until now
• 19:02
  Mars 2020. Um it will be launched uh
• 19:05
  July or August this year. I think it's
• 19:08
  uh landing date on Mars is the 18th of
• 19:10
  February next year. So um just uh just
• 19:14
  under a year away
• 19:16
  >> um until now called Mars 2020. So during
• 19:19
  the closing months of last year, NA NASA
• 19:22
  put out the invitation uh to school
• 19:26
  students. I think it was uh school
• 19:28
  students of all ages from kindi to year
• 19:31
  12 uh and uh invited
• 19:35
  them to submit suggestions for the uh
• 19:41
  for the um uh name of the of the rover
• 19:44
  and they received
• 19:47
  uh two thou 28,000 submissions.
• 19:50
  >> I know that's amazing.
• 19:52
  >> It's not bad, is it? That was uh back in
• 19:54
  August at the end of August last year
• 19:56
  when they put the invitation out. And uh
• 19:59
  but fortunately uh it wasn't just one
• 20:01
  person who had to read all 28,000
• 20:03
  because these were essays uh saying why
• 20:05
  it should be a particular name. They had
• 20:07
  4,700 volunteer judges. They were
• 20:09
  educators uh professionals in the space
• 20:13
  field and space enthusiasts. And they
• 20:15
  eventually got down to 155
• 20:19
  semi-finalists and then nine finalists.
• 20:21
  And I think I can't remember but I think
• 20:23
  you and I talked about this last year.
• 20:25
  Yes. Because there was a list of uh of
• 20:28
  very elegant they were all great names
• 20:30
  actually for for a rover.
• 20:32
  >> Um so and then they put that out for
• 20:36
  public voting and in fact it was
• 20:38
  worldwide and there were many
• 20:40
  submissions came from Australia. They
• 20:42
  received a total of 770,000
• 20:45
  votes. Wow. uh to to to you know to chew
• 20:49
  through to work out what uh the final
• 20:51
  name should be and eventually uh they
• 20:56
  got one answer and it came
• 20:58
  >> Hang on. Drum roll.
• 21:00
  >> Drum roll. Uh it it came from uh a
• 21:05
  youngster by the name of Alex Mather uh
• 21:09
  who's at a school I've forgotten. I
• 21:11
  think he's in Virginia. I can check that
• 21:13
  in a minute. Uh but he and here's the
• 21:16
  drum roll. He was the person who
• 21:17
  suggested the name Perseverance
• 21:21
  name
• 21:22
  >> of the new spacecraft.
• 21:24
  >> Yeah. Yeah. That is a fabulous name for
• 21:26
  it because it it does actually
• 21:29
  tell a story behind all the missions to
• 21:31
  Mars over the years and all the work
• 21:33
  that's gone into it. They just, you
• 21:34
  know, all the successes and the failures
• 21:37
  and the and the near misses. It is
• 21:40
  perseverance that that going.
• 21:42
  >> That's right. Um I mean this this
• 21:44
  spacecraft as well could be uh it could
• 21:47
  be the one that discovers life on Mars.
• 21:49
  >> Yes.
• 21:50
  >> Uh because that's what it's you know
• 21:52
  what the aim is. It's um unlike
• 21:55
  Curiosity whose mission was to discover
• 21:57
  whether Mars was ever habitable which it
• 21:59
  did within about the first fortnite of
• 22:01
  its presence on the planet. Um uh
• 22:04
  Perseverance is looking for evidence of
• 22:06
  past or present life um with many
• 22:09
  different instruments that will uh will
• 22:12
  do that. Uh, and I I suspect
• 22:14
  Perseverance might be the characteristic
• 22:16
  that it needs more than anything else.
• 22:18
  It will probably be quite a long
• 22:20
  mission. Uh, it's unlikely that, you
• 22:22
  know, as soon as it drops down, it's
• 22:23
  going to find evidence of
• 22:26
  Martian microbes. One would expect that
• 22:28
  it might have to move around on the
• 22:29
  surface a bit, but it will do that.
• 22:31
  >> Yeah,
• 22:33
  only slightly pipped uh the number two,
• 22:36
  which was, do I have to go to Mars?
• 22:40
  Yeah,
• 22:42
  >> that's the one. Yeah. Um, I'm fascinated
• 22:44
  by the fact that uh they got 28,000
• 22:47
  submissions for the name. It reminds me
• 22:49
  of an author, a children's author in Sri
• 22:51
  Lanka last week who got 20,000
• 22:53
  submissions for the ending of her latest
• 22:55
  book.
• 22:55
  >> Okay.
• 22:56
  >> And they came out and and they published
• 22:58
  they're going to publish it with 1,250
• 23:00
  endings, which is a which is a Guinness
• 23:04
  World Record. And I I think those sorts
• 23:06
  of responses really show where you stand
• 23:08
  in the world. So when I asked for a
• 23:10
  title for my book, I got five.
• 23:12
  >> Yeah, you did. I think that's pretty
• 23:14
  good.
• 23:15
  >> More than more than the number of people
• 23:17
  who read my book. Um that um that the
• 23:21
  bottom line here is congratulations to
• 23:23
  young Al Alexander Ma. Um he is uh a
• 23:27
  year sorry a grade seven student. Now I
• 23:30
  I'm guessing that that means he's about
• 23:32
  13. Yeah.
• 23:33
  >> Uh or thereabouts. Um and he's uh he put
• 23:37
  in put together a really uh remarkable
• 23:42
  um you know remarkable
• 23:44
  uh uh entry. Um he said some very very
• 23:50
  uh very nice comments about the the
• 23:53
  competition and his his uh his um entry
• 23:57
  to it. He says um this is actually in
• 24:00
  the NASA press release. He says, "This
• 24:01
  was a chance to help the agency that put
• 24:03
  humans on the moon and will soon do it
• 24:05
  again. This Mars rover will help pave
• 24:08
  the way for human presence there, and I
• 24:10
  wanted to try and help in any way I
• 24:12
  could. Refusal of the challenge was not
• 24:14
  an option."
• 24:16
  >> Lovely. That is great.
• 24:17
  >> Great stuff, isn't it?
• 24:18
  >> Good on him. Okay, so watch out for
• 24:21
  perseverance
• 24:23
  uh which should hit the Martian surface
• 24:25
  uh in a little under a year. Uh still on
• 24:28
  students doing great things. Uh this is
• 24:31
  this is a fabulous story about a
• 24:32
  17-year-old who's doing an internship at
• 24:35
  NASA and has found a planet on day
• 24:39
  three.
• 24:40
  >> Day three. That's right.
• 24:42
  >> It is. It's great stuff. Um so, uh this
• 24:45
  is a young man called uh Wolf Cookier. I
• 24:48
  hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly.
• 24:50
  Uh he scored a two-month internship with
• 24:54
  NASA. Uh so during last northern summer
• 24:56
  he was at the Godard Space Flight Center
• 24:58
  in Green Belt in Maryland and um what
• 25:01
  what he was doing uh on day three I
• 25:04
  think he probably started off doing this
• 25:06
  he was trolling through data from TESS
• 25:10
  uh so TESS is a NASA spacecraft is
• 25:13
  currently operational doing a great job
• 25:15
  the name is an acronym for transiting
• 25:18
  exoplanet survey satellite so it's
• 25:21
  actually looking for the dimming of the
• 25:24
  light of of stars as planets pass in
• 25:26
  front of them. Uh and unlike Kepler
• 25:29
  which only looked at a small uh area of
• 25:32
  the sky to do the same job, um Kepler
• 25:36
  now now effectively defunct. Uh TESS
• 25:39
  actually looks at the whole sky. Uh so
• 25:41
  it's a it's a the word survey in its
• 25:44
  name is very important because it
• 25:46
  actually has a chance to look at the
• 25:47
  entire sky. So he was looking through
• 25:51
  the data. Actually, there's a a nice
• 25:53
  quote again from um from Wolf. He says,
• 25:56
  "I was looking through the data for
• 25:58
  everything the volunteers had flagged as
• 25:59
  an eclipsing binary. That means uh two
• 26:03
  stars orbiting around their common
• 26:05
  center of mass, one passes in front of
• 26:07
  the other as seen from the Earth. And
• 26:09
  so, you get what we call an eclipse.
• 26:11
  >> So, they're well-known stars. They've
• 26:13
  been well known for for a more than a
• 26:16
  century. He was looking uh through
• 26:18
  everything volunteers had flagged as an
• 26:20
  eclipsing binary, a system where two
• 26:22
  stars circle around each other and from
• 26:24
  our view eclipse each other every orbit.
• 26:27
  About 3 days into my internship, I saw a
• 26:30
  signal from a system called TOI 1338. At
• 26:34
  first, I thought it was a stellar
• 26:36
  eclipse, but the timing was wrong. It
• 26:39
  turned out to be a planet. uh I noticed
• 26:42
  a dip or a transit from the TOI 1338
• 26:44
  system and that was the first signal of
• 26:46
  the planet. First saw the initial dip
• 26:48
  and thought oh that looked cool but when
• 26:51
  I then when I looked at the full data
• 26:52
  from the telescope at that star I and my
• 26:55
  mentor also noticed three different dips
• 26:57
  in the system. So great stuff and very
• 27:00
  well very well spotted
• 27:01
  >> and it's a big one too in
• 27:04
  >> Yeah, that's right.
• 27:05
  >> planets I suppose
• 27:05
  >> it's it's between the um you know it's
• 27:08
  somewhere between the size of Neptune
• 27:10
  and Saturn uh rather larger than Uranus
• 27:15
  about seven times larger than the Earth.
• 27:17
  It's in the constellation of Pictor and
• 27:19
  it's about 1300 light years away. Um the
• 27:23
  >> Is it a gas giant or a rocky planet?
• 27:25
  >> Probably. Probably a gas giant.
• 27:27
  >> Yeah. the the the name uh TOI
• 27:32
  1338. TOUI is an acronym for TESS object
• 27:37
  of interest. Uh and uh it's um it's one
• 27:40
  that's floating around a lot these days
• 27:42
  with the with a number attached to it.
• 27:44
  So of course um because of the
• 27:46
  convention uh that planet that Wolf has
• 27:50
  discovered is now called TOI 1338b
• 27:53
  because the B signifies it is the first
• 27:56
  discovered planet around the star.
• 27:58
  >> Excellent. All right.
• 28:00
  >> Great stuff.
• 28:01
  >> Yeah, good good stuff with involving
• 28:02
  students um doing wonderful things.
• 28:05
  You're listening to Space Nuts with
• 28:07
  Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.
• 28:12
  G and I feel fine.
• 28:14
  >> Space nuts.
• 28:15
  >> And a big hello to all our social media
• 28:17
  followers that um contribute via our
• 28:20
  Facebook page. If you're not following
• 28:22
  us on Facebook, uh maybe have a look if
• 28:24
  you're a Facebook user, of course. Uh
• 28:26
  you can also join the Space Nuts podcast
• 28:29
  group on Facebook. That's a chance for
• 28:30
  you to talk to each other and help each
• 28:32
  other out with astronomy questions. And
• 28:34
  it's going gang busters. people are
• 28:36
  really uh enjoying finding each other
• 28:39
  and um that you know the similarity and
• 28:42
  interest is is rather fascinating. So uh
• 28:44
  I occasionally poke my head in there,
• 28:46
  but it's it's actually for you the Space
• 28:48
  Nuts podcast group. So uh you might want
• 28:50
  to take advantage of that. Uh and of
• 28:52
  course YouTube uh the numbers continue
• 28:54
  to grow. So if you'd like to subscribe
• 28:55
  to the Space Nuts YouTube channel, you
• 28:59
  can do that, too. Now, uh Fred, we have
• 29:03
  a couple of questions. I didn't uh
• 29:04
  preview these because I forgot. But uh
• 29:06
  we we are going to tackle a couple of
• 29:08
  questions and then we're going to do um
• 29:09
  a little bit of homework or go back to
• 29:11
  something we talked about a couple of
• 29:12
  weeks ago just to finish it off which
• 29:15
  was the ro limit which which actually
• 29:16
  came about as a result of a question.
• 29:19
  But our first question today comes from
• 29:20
  Andrew Mitchell. I think Andrew's been
• 29:22
  in touch with us before. Dear Fred and
• 29:24
  Andrew, all this recent talk about black
• 29:26
  holes has been fascinating and the last
• 29:29
  installment got me thinking. According
• 29:31
  to Einstein's equations, black holes are
• 29:33
  supposed to have uh infin uh supposed to
• 29:36
  be infinitely small, infinitely dense
• 29:39
  singularities at their center. If that's
• 29:41
  the case, then how do uh two actually
• 29:44
  merge into one black hole? Shouldn't
• 29:46
  they just keep orbiting each other
• 29:48
  getting closer forever? Or is the fact
• 29:50
  that black holes do merge actually
• 29:52
  evidence that singularities have size?
• 29:55
  Perhaps a sphere with a diameter of one
• 29:58
  plank length. Uh, your regular plugs on
• 30:00
  YouTube channel have been paying off. I
• 30:03
  just became subscriber number 993, so it
• 30:05
  would, you know, we're a bit overdue
• 30:07
  getting your question done. Andrew,
• 30:08
  thanks for joining us on YouTube,
• 30:09
  though. Still loving the show. Um,
• 30:11
  please keep up the mind-blowing stories.
• 30:14
  Thank you, Andrew. Um, black holes. Gee,
• 30:17
  we don't talk about them very often. Um
• 30:20
  but yeah, it's an interesting question
• 30:22
  because we talk about how the the black
• 30:25
  hole itself is quite small when you
• 30:28
  compare it to the event horizon or the
• 30:30
  or the you know what's going on around
• 30:32
  it. Um but yeah,
• 30:35
  two merging black holes, do they
• 30:37
  actually merge and how is it? So
• 30:42
  it's a really good question. Um, it's
• 30:46
  uh,
• 30:48
  you know, the the the whole black hole
• 30:52
  thing is hard to get your head around.
• 30:54
  >> Yeah.
• 30:54
  >> Whether you're a physicist or an
• 30:56
  astronomer or somebody fighting over
• 30:59
  toilet rolls in the in the aisle of the
• 31:01
  suit involves a black hole, too, doesn't
• 31:03
  it?
• 31:04
  >> I'm sure it does. Yeah. There there they
• 31:05
  are very very hard uh objects to
• 31:08
  understand. Uh, and Andrew's question is
• 31:11
  is really well made. Um, how do two
• 31:15
  black holes merge into one? Um, I I
• 31:19
  don't think there is any need for them
• 31:24
  to keep orbiting around each other if
• 31:27
  they are of infinitely small size. But I
• 31:30
  do get his point that if you've got
• 31:32
  something that's infinitely small uh and
• 31:34
  you put something else that's infinitely
• 31:36
  small next to it, they're never going to
• 31:38
  they're never going to touch because
• 31:40
  they're uh because the dimensions are
• 31:42
  infinitely small. But in fact, as as
• 31:45
  Andrew says, they do merge. We have
• 31:47
  evidence of that uh from the
• 31:50
  gravitational wave observations that
• 31:52
  have been made um over the past two
• 31:54
  three years. Um and there is uh there is
• 31:59
  this phenomenon um called the ringdown
• 32:02
  which is the the sort of aftermath of
• 32:05
  the merging. Now I don't know enough
• 32:06
  about black hole physics to understand
• 32:09
  specifically what the mechanism of the
• 32:12
  ring down is but I suspect that is where
• 32:14
  the evidence comes that you actually
• 32:17
  have now merged black holes. In fact, we
• 32:20
  know we know the evidence is there um
• 32:23
  because you wind up with a black hole
• 32:25
  whose mass is actually usually slightly
• 32:29
  less than the sum of the masses of the
• 32:30
  two black holes that have merged and the
• 32:32
  and the excess has gone into creating
• 32:35
  the gravitational waves. It's mass into
• 32:37
  energy. Uh but um Andrew goes on to make
• 32:41
  an interesting point. He says, "Or do
• 32:43
  the sing or is the fact that black holes
• 32:46
  do merge actually evidence that
• 32:48
  singularities have a size? Perhaps a
• 32:50
  sphere with a diameter of one plank
• 32:52
  length."
• 32:54
  >> Now, um, introducing the plank length is
• 32:57
  a really neat way of sidest stepping the
• 33:00
  idea of an infinite decimately small
• 33:03
  object because the the plank length is
• 33:06
  defined as being the smallest distance
• 33:10
  and it is got a It does have a proper
• 33:13
  physical definition. In fact, it's
• 33:14
  actually the distance that light travels
• 33:17
  in one unit of plank time. Uh so that
• 33:20
  raises the question, well, what's plank
• 33:22
  time? Um let me just summarize though,
• 33:25
  and this is coming directly off
• 33:27
  Wikipedia. The plank length can be
• 33:29
  defined uh sorry uh from yeah, let me
• 33:32
  read it. The plank length can be defined
• 33:34
  from three fundamental physical
• 33:35
  constants. the speed of light in a
• 33:37
  vacuum, the plank constant, that's
• 33:39
  something um which physicists are very
• 33:41
  familiar with, and the gravitational
• 33:43
  constant. It's the smallest distance
• 33:46
  about which current experimentally
• 33:49
  corroborated models of physics can make
• 33:52
  meaningful statements. So what it says
• 33:56
  is and I'll go on at such small
• 33:58
  distances the conventional laws of macro
• 34:00
  physics no longer apply and even
• 34:03
  relativistic physics require special
• 34:05
  treatment and the bottom line is that a
• 34:07
  plank length below that all bets are
• 34:09
  off. Okay,
• 34:10
  >> we really don't understand what is
• 34:12
  happening to the physics and maybe
• 34:14
  Andrew's point is well made that uh you
• 34:16
  know a plank length black hole is
• 34:20
  actually what you have at the center of
• 34:23
  or constituting a black hole system. Um
• 34:26
  I need to talk to my uh expert friends
• 34:29
  about this because um at this level of
• 34:32
  technicality uh my knowledge is not
• 34:35
  specialist but I do know people whose
• 34:38
  knowledge is far better than mine and
• 34:41
  next time I run into them uh I'm going
• 34:43
  to ask them exactly about these
• 34:45
  questions and hopefully feedback to
• 34:47
  Space Nuts and to Andrew and his fellow
• 34:50
  listeners.
• 34:51
  >> Okay. So the question remains open,
• 34:53
  Andrew, but
• 34:54
  >> yeah, I think we'll give you a definite
• 34:56
  maybe.
• 34:58
  >> Maybe.
• 34:59
  >> Yes. All right. Thanks, Andrew. Thanks
• 35:00
  for the question. Let's move on to a
• 35:02
  question from Alf Peterson in Sweden.
• 35:04
  Yeah. Uh Alf, I've got some news from
• 35:07
  you which you may or may not be aware
• 35:08
  of, but uh a young lady named Julia
• 35:11
  Angstrom, a professional golfer from
• 35:13
  Sweden, just won the New South Wales
• 35:17
  Women's Open, which we hosted here in DO
• 35:19
  a couple of weeks ago.
• 35:20
  >> Great. I because our course was closed
• 35:23
  to play for members, we um we uh we we
• 35:25
  got to go out there and watch these
• 35:27
  young ladies go around. It was a
• 35:28
  European tour event. Uh she won not only
• 35:31
  her share of the prize money, but a
• 35:33
  2-year exemption on the European tour.
• 35:35
  She's 18 years old and she swings it
• 35:38
  like a champion. I mean, she was hitting
• 35:40
  at 260 to 280 m, whailing it past me,
• 35:44
  and she's just a slip of a kid, but uh
• 35:47
  remarkable player and someone to watch
• 35:49
  out for in the future if you're a
• 35:50
  golfer. Julia Angstrom is her name. So,
• 35:52
  there you go, Al. A little bit of I can
• 35:54
  feel his pride swelling now. Um, now he
• 35:58
  says, "Hello, Andrew and Fred. What a
• 36:00
  fantastic community you've started, and
• 36:02
  it's a global one, too. I've been a
• 36:04
  faithful listener of your pods now for a
• 36:06
  year and enjoy them very much. Never
• 36:07
  imagined Thursdays could be that
• 36:09
  exciting. I'd usually say something
• 36:11
  derogatory, but I'm feeling good today.
• 36:13
  Uh, don't know if this question might be
• 36:16
  of interest to the show. Is there any
• 36:18
  chance that a It's a black hole
• 36:19
  question, by the way, Fred. Is there any
• 36:21
  chance that a black hole might not exist
• 36:23
  in its uh inside its event horizon?
• 36:26
  After all, black holes are claimed to be
• 36:28
  singularities, i.e. infantessimal in
• 36:30
  size. In practical terms, nothing,
• 36:33
  right? Uh, if so, could an event horizon
• 36:36
  act as a sort of a delayed postal
• 36:38
  service, never informing anyone outside
• 36:41
  what has happened? Like Australia Post,
• 36:44
  really? Um, no, they're great. Actually,
• 36:47
  uh, there's another piece of news. Do
• 36:49
  Post Office here in town got Post Office
• 36:52
  of the Year.
• 36:53
  >> Oh, fabulous. That's great news.
• 36:55
  >> About a month ago, so we're doing all
• 36:58
  right here, aren't we?
• 36:58
  >> Yeah, you're doing well in double.
• 37:00
  >> Back to questions. Would physics allow
• 37:02
  matter still to be pulled into the vent
• 37:05
  event uh into the horizon even if the
• 37:08
  black hole was gone?
• 37:10
  Uh great question, Ol. And um in in a
• 37:14
  sense the um the he's right about the
• 37:17
  event horizon acting as a delayed postal
• 37:20
  service because
• 37:22
  um it it it stops the transfer of
• 37:25
  information. We do know that uh black
• 37:27
  holes can evaporate courtesy of of
• 37:29
  Hawking radiation but uh basically and
• 37:33
  and that involves the transfer of
• 37:35
  information. We know that but it's very
• 37:36
  very slow. So the the the event horizon
• 37:40
  does shield the black hole from the
• 37:42
  outside world if I can put it that way.
• 37:45
  But um in terms of whether the black
• 37:48
  hole itself exists, it it's kind of the
• 37:50
  other way around. The only way the event
• 37:53
  horizon can exist is is if there is a
• 37:55
  black hole at the center. Uh in other
• 37:58
  words, this infinite decimally small
• 38:00
  singularity
• 38:01
  essentially distorting spaceime to the
• 38:04
  extent that you've got this shield
• 38:06
  around it. This black hole the black
• 38:07
  hole uh sorry the the black hole event
• 38:10
  horizon. The event horizon in some ways
• 38:13
  is an illusion, Andrew, because it's um
• 38:16
  it's just the point of no return. It's
• 38:18
  the the thing that won't let light out.
• 38:20
  And it certainly is black. We've seen
• 38:22
  that from the the event horizon image uh
• 38:25
  that was released last year. But uh
• 38:28
  without the black hole, the event
• 38:29
  horizon doesn't exist. So uh it it has
• 38:33
  to there has to be this singularity at
• 38:35
  the middle with all its complicated uh
• 38:38
  infiniteesimally small planklength
• 38:41
  dimensions that we've just been discover
• 38:42
  discussing. Um yeah, great question
• 38:45
  though and thank you very much. And yes,
• 38:47
  Sweden rocks. I was there not very long
• 38:49
  ago.
• 38:49
  >> And as Montipython says, nothing can
• 38:51
  come from nothing.
• 38:53
  >> Can't be nothing.
• 38:55
  >> Yes. Yes.
• 38:57
  >> Thanks, Al. Appreciate the question. Uh,
• 38:59
  one more thing before we finish up,
• 39:01
  Fred, and this is um a little bit of um
• 39:03
  an add-on from a question about the Ro
• 39:05
  limit. A couple of weeks ago, we were
• 39:07
  trying to figure out
• 39:08
  >> the Ro limit between the Earth and the
• 39:11
  Moon. And as you explained, the ro limit
• 39:13
  is the point where uh gravity will
• 39:16
  destroy one of the objects involved in
• 39:19
  the um uh in the uh situation. So um you
• 39:23
  could probably explain it better than I
• 39:24
  just did, but um uh basically we were
• 39:27
  trying to figure out how close the moon
• 39:29
  could get to the earth before it was
• 39:31
  obliterated.
• 39:32
  >> Yeah. And you know, life on Earth would
• 39:33
  probably be obliterated, too.
• 39:35
  >> Well, that's right. It would be a tricky
• 39:37
  situation for all of us, but it is. It's
• 39:39
  much less than I thought it would be,
• 39:41
  Andrew. It's um the ro limit for the
• 39:44
  moon is 9,492
• 39:46
  km, and I think that's from the center
• 39:48
  of the Earth. So, it's actually 3,14
• 39:51
  uh 1114 kilometers above the surface.
• 39:54
  Imagine the moon 3,000 km above the
• 39:56
  surface. Whoa.
• 39:57
  >> Wouldn't it look amazing?
• 39:59
  >> It would look pretty amazing. That's
• 40:00
  right.
• 40:00
  >> Just for a few moments until we all die
• 40:03
  far away. Die. Yes, that's right.
• 40:06
  >> Yeah.
• 40:06
  >> But that's okay. But we'd have plenty of
• 40:08
  toilet paper.
• 40:09
  >> No, we would. We'd be all right.
• 40:10
  >> Yes. So, three So, 9,000
• 40:15
  >> Yeah. 9,492
• 40:17
  kilometers from the center of the Earth.
• 40:19
  >> Close as it could get before it was
• 40:21
  destroyed by our gravity and we would go
• 40:23
  down with the ship.
• 40:25
  >> Absolutely.
• 40:26
  >> Yeah. In a nutshell. All right. Now,
• 40:28
  we've got that sorted out. Uh, thank
• 40:30
  you, Fred, so much. It's always a
• 40:31
  pleasure.
• 40:32
  >> It's always a pleasure talking to you,
• 40:34
  too, Andrew. And we'll speak again soon.
• 40:36
  We will indeed. And and thank you for uh
• 40:38
  listening. Thank you for your
• 40:39
  contributions. Keep them coming. We love
• 40:41
  to hear from you, whether it's on social
• 40:42
  media or via our website where you can
• 40:44
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• 40:47
  contact form there so you can send us
• 40:48
  questions. And uh to the patrons,
• 40:51
  there'll be some bonus material coming
• 40:53
  up real soon. Uh other than that, thank
• 40:56
  you and we'll see you again next time on
• 40:58
  another edition of the Space Nuts
• 41:00
  podcast.
• 41:01
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• 41:07
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