Latest / Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding / 46. The Referral Gap: Why Your Happiest Clients Aren't Sending Anyone Your Way (And What to Do About It) with Phil Bray

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46. The Referral Gap: Why Your Happiest Clients Aren't Sending Anyone Your Way (And What to Do About It) with Phil Bray · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Come away from this asking.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree that asking makes advisors feel uncomfortable.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think it makes clients feel uncomfortable.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: So we don't talk to advisors' planners and teach them how to ask for referrals.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: We believe there should be a wider strategy based on three things client education, client communication, and client appreciation.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's mastering discovery meaning, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, hi.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: I should probably introduce myself.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, and today I am joined by a new friend from Across the Pond.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: I think as they say, I'm probably totally watching that.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: But I am joined by Phil Bray, founder of Yardstick.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Phil, welcome to the show.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that you're here.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: And I think, yeah, that's exactly how we are.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: We're across the pond.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: I I love that.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: So um I did not share this with you prior to hitting record.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh, our family, um, we went to London last summer, first time for all of us.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: And we thoroughly enjoyed it so much so that my kids would very much like to move there.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna lie, there might be a small part of me that's like, I could see us spending some extended time here, you know, maybe once the kids are gone.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: So we thoroughly enjoyed it.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: I know there are a lot of other parts to just the UK in general.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: London is just one part, but we enjoyed at least a taste of it.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so it was wonderful to be across the pond and enjoy things over there.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Phil, I know that you have been or were a financial advisor prior to getting into marketing.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna talk about marketing today.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk about marketing in the sense of uh referrals for advisors, um, particularly in this now new, not so new space of of AI.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: But before we get into all the really good stuff, how does how does a financial advisor get into marketing?
3:33
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear a little bit about your story.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: So I can give you the short version of the long version.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Let's go with the short and then let's see how important it is.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: And you might want the longer version.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I used to be a financial advisor from 1995 to about 2008.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: And in 2008, there was that little thing called the financial crisis that you may or may not remember.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: There is a little thing there, yes.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: And I run run a financial planning business um that uh had quite a bit of debt in it.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: We'd bought a couple of other businesses and we had quite a bit of debt in there.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: And for various reasons, um that debt got called in, and I was left uh with a couple of personal guarantees, and ultimately the business went under.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't have a business to run at that point, but what I did was really enjoy marketing.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: I always enjoyed the thrill, frankly, of taking an idea and running with it and seeing the output from the marketing input.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: So I helped found a financial planning business in Nottingham that's now run by my wife.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: She runs runs that.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: I have pretty much nothing to do with that.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and she does that brilliantly with her business partner.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: And I then moved to work for what's called a network in the UK and was head of marketing there.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: Long distance, a lot of commute, and turns out the only two things I know anything about are financial services and marketing, so it seemed like a good idea to set up an agency.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: And we did that in we launched in January 2017.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: There were three of us, there's now 55.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: My goodness.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: Wow, wow, that is so.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: My technical math skills are not so great, but what I would say is that that's some pretty big growth.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: That's amazing, that's incredible.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's we're not Uber, we're bigger than some.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: We're just we do what we do what we do.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, we enjoy getting we enjoy doing it.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: And is that gonna be the new tagline?
5:52
SPEAKER_00: We do what we do and we enjoy doing it.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, our mission statement starts with we enjoy, and it's a really interesting lens to look through through when you're assessing opportunities, things that you might want to do, things that you might not want to do.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, frankly, enjoyment plays a massive part in it.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: What a wonderful journey.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that that didn't always feel wonderful, but just you know, a wonderful journey from financial services to now, you know, not quite Uber level, but let's be honest, you guys are probably better than Uber.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: I bet you guys are better than Uber.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Fair.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: So you have seen really, you've seen a lot then, Phil, just in the 30 years between um the financial advising uh landscape and now even to marketing.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: And I guess I'm just curious, like when we talk about or start thinking about maybe referrals, like how has the referral process game even, how has that changed from your lens?
6:53
SPEAKER_01: In some way, some ways nothing's changed, in other ways, everything's changed.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: So, in terms of what hasn't changed, referrals and recommendations from existing clients to financial advisors have always been, and I think always will be the best, quote unquote, type of new inquiry, because they've got the highest conversion rate and the lowest cost of acquisition compared to pretty much generating inquiries leads from all other sources, and I think that was true back in 95 when I started, and it's true in 2026.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: But I think the journey that people take has changed completely.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: So back in um 95, if I was a person seeking retirement advice, I might have asked a couple of friends, a couple of professional connections, my accountant, my solicitor, who they would recommend.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: I would have a couple of names of planners, a couple of names of their firms, and I'd have just picked up the phone and booked an appointment.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: The level of due diligence was really, really low.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Now though, sat between me, that same person with two names and two firms' names, sat between me becoming aware of them and taking action, sits Google and a whole host of new AI tools that are at my fingertips.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: And I can go and search for these people.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: So if I'm using Google, I will first meet the firm on a Google search results page.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: I'll start to get to know them as I click around the internet, look at their website.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: And who knows, I might use AI to validate the decision or validate the referral of the introduction.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: So I think in many ways, nothing's changed.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: Still the best type of inquiry.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: In other ways, everything's changed.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: It makes a lot of sense to me, right?
9:07
SPEAKER_00: Because and I think about it just from also a human lens, too, right?
9:11
SPEAKER_00: And that human to human, I'll say just interaction right there around like referrals, like that's that still exists today.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think it is uh a very, I think it's very powerful just in terms of um trust and and relationships there.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: When I guess I'm curious, like when we think about maybe referrals through, I'll say a behavioral lens.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's the best way to frame it, but if we think about it from like a behavioral lens, you know, sometimes there can be like this gap of clients who say they might be happy to refer.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: Um uh and then those who like actually do, it's a very frustrating gap from you know, kind of what I hear at least uh a lot of advisors say.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious, like now, maybe with technology, we look at referrals, like how or what would you say there from just an advisor lens in terms of you know being able to close that gap for clients that are like, yeah, I'd be happy to refer.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe those that actually do, like, are there any differences there?
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Are there does technology play a role?
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Does AI play a role?
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Or is it more on the advisor?
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Is that more, do you see, like on the advisor playing a stronger role in closing that gap?
10:30
SPEAKER_01: I think the there is absolutely a gap.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I think there's two gaps when it comes to referrals.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: And you're right to highlight that I think what you've highlighted there for me, we call the difference between advocates and active advocates.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: Say more about that.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: So, an advocate for me is somebody who in principle would recommend their advisor on, but hasn't done it yet.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: I think an active advocate is somebody who has done it, say, in the last 12 months.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: It's a subjective term we can all um come up with uh different definitions of an active advocate.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: But as I say, an advocate is somebody who has recommended on, or would recommend on, I should say, and an active advocate is somebody who has done it in the last say 12 months.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: So the first gap advisors need to close is the gap between those people who say they would recommend them on the advocates, and those people who are active advocates.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: We've got a bit of data behind this.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: We help advisors in the UK and overseas run client surveys.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: And I've never been a big fan of Net Promoter School.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: I think there's better ways of finding out whether you are building a business that is recommendable or not.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: Um we ask a couple of questions about would you recommend on, have you recommended on, and what those results show when they're aggregated together is about 96% of clients would recommend their financial advisor on, in principle.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: So they are the advocates.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: The level of active advocacy drops to about 50%.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: So the first gap advisors need to close is that gap between active advocates and those people who are who in principle would recommend them on.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: That's the first gap we need to close.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: The second gap we need to close is the gap between the proportion of people who are recommended to a financial advisor and those who actually get in touch.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: Because the majority of people who are recommended to a financial advisor, our research shows, never actually get in touch with them, and there can be all sorts of reasons for that.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: Life gets in the way, they decide to DIY, they have a relationship with Chat GPT and decide to DIY it.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: They might go down a different road, so they might have been recommended two or three, did the Googling, did the searching on AI, and decide actually advisor A was better than advisor B or C.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe the need has just dissipated a little bit.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: But as I say, for me, it's those two gaps we need to close.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: The gap between the proportion of clients who are active advocates and advocates, and then the gap between the proportion of people who are recommended to an advisor who actually then subsequently get in touch.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: So I love this terminology and breaking down even just from a client level, like an advocate and then someone who is active, right?
13:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's fantastic that you have numbers right to show for that.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: From your like experience, if we look at just tech tools and certainly AI being a part of that, you talked about kind of for those um advocates who you know may go in and they've been given the names and they're referring.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: They're looking up, and there's reasons why maybe that gap, that gap isn't closed for like reaching, reaching out.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and tech plays a role, um, understandably.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: From your experience, I guess, what role, if any, does human connection, I guess, kind of play into that?
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, are clients who have a better social relationship, um, I think like your best friend, right?
14:47
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, are they, does that relationship or does that human connection like still play a role?
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Or is it, you know, is it information that they find like on there?
14:57
SPEAKER_00: Like what do you, I guess I'm curious, like from your just experience and maybe you have some data on it.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, like, is there any difference there between what the person like receives from like tech versus like a human?
15:09
SPEAKER_00: Is there any difference there in terms of what helps them to reach out and make the connection with an advisor?
15:14
SPEAKER_01: So I think the what the potential client gets from a human interaction is energy, enthusiasm, a story from the client recommending their planner into somebody else they care about.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: And for me, whenever we make a recommendation, whether it's a book, a film, a professional, a play, whatever it is, a place to eat in London, whatever it is, you the person making that recommendation wraps it in positivity, don't they?
15:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they want the person that they are talking to to have a really good experience.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: So they'll wrap it in, they'll wrap it in positivity, and that positivity is clearly genuine, it's clearly authentic, and that creates that connection.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: I think if somebody is looking for a financial planner and has chosen not to go down the route of asking for a referral, asking for an introduction, and they've headed to Google, you know, financial advisor near me or something like that, then they they don't immediately have that connection.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: It takes more time to build it up.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: It can be built up through good quality websites and that sort of stuff, and and also through social proof, but it's never going to be as strong, it's absolutely never gonna be as strong.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: So for me, I think that's one of the reasons why referrals recommendations are always the best type of new inquiry.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: There are difficulties with it, there are challenges, and there are some circumstances when it's not so easy to do.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: But it's one of the reasons we talk to firms when we're talking to them about their marketing, and once we fix the marketing foundations, we will always talk to them about how to maximize that referral opportunity from existing clients before they start investing in other forms of marketing.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: So let's get the referral sorted out before we start looking at SEO and LinkedIn and that sort of stuff.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great maybe segue into what I hear around referrals often is that it's awkward asking for them.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'll be honest, even like for myself, you know, so I had a mental health private practice for well over a decade.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that this necessarily speaks to just me, but it was a local practice.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really need referrals because there was, I would say, a shortage of couples therapists.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I never really had to do any like asking for referrals or really quite frankly, a whole lot of like overt outward like marketing.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: There's just a shortage.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, I say that because then fast forward, like transitioning over now into um founding beyond the plan and working with like firms and that market just being now globally asking for referrals, like I am uncomfortable doing that.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: And yet I understand maybe the reason why.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: And so you said that you kind of start with from a marketing place, like that foundation is let's maximize like our like referrals.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: But for those maybe advisors or professionals that feel very uncomfortable, like how do you maybe the right word is coach?
18:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you kind of coach them like through that uh to where they're not pushy or feeling desperate or demanding?
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Where do you start?
19:03
SPEAKER_01: So I think we start in two places.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: The first here is reframing things.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: In my experience, most advisors, most planners feel that an existing client is making the referral to help them, the financial advisor, for entrepreneur.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: But actually, I don't think they are.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: They are making the referral to help somebody they care about get the same outcome as they did.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: That confidence, peace of mind, reassurance that financial planning always, always provides.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: The fact it helps the planner build a business is incidental.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: So, first thing we need to do is get the frame right.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: That actually, the more referrals the advisor gets, up to a certain point, of course, everyone's got a level of uh new clients that they can take on.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: But the more referrals the advisor gets, the more good they will do from more people.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's the first thing.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: I think the second thing is to come away from this asking.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree that asking makes advisors feel uncomfortable, and I think it makes clients feel uncomfortable, and therefore, for me, it's the wrong thing to do.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: So we don't talk to advisors, planners, and teach them how to ask for referrals.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: We believe there should be a wider strategy based on three things client education, client communication, and client appreciation.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Education, communication, and appreciation.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: And the education part, we believe, should be based on helping clients understand who to recommend it to, how to do it, and when to do it.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: Those three different things.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: And for me, that starts with a conversation with all humans, a conversation.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: And in the UK, most planners will do an annual review meeting with their clients, probably the same, over the pond in the US.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: And for me, the right thing to do at that point is at the end of the agenda, at the end of the meeting, the planner gives an update to the client about the business, their business.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: The clients are interested in their financial planner's business, but they're invested in the planner, often to levels above where the planner thinks they're invested.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: And that conversation should be five, ten minutes about the business, follow a six-step process, which we can talk about if you like.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: But the aim of it is to educate the client on who to recommend, how to do it, and when to do it.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: The aim is not that the advisor is going to walk out with names, numbers, and email addresses.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: And if enough of those conversations are had and support Reported with ongoing communication and appreciation when the client makes the referral.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: We've seen firms significantly increase the number of referrals received.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: One advisor, we crunched the numbers earlier in January, 144% increase, 25 compared to 2024.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: And it works, but it takes time to work.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: It's an exercise in delayed gratification.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: You've got to have enough conversations with enough clients over a prolonged period of time so that when the opportunity arises, they have the information that they can then use.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Before we continue, I'm going to pause for just a second to tell you about something I'm so excited about.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: And yes, I know that this is a classic podcast move, right?
22:49
SPEAKER_00: But just stay with me here because if what we've been talking about today resonates with you, this is going to feel really relevant.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: If you're a firm owner, if you're an advisor who knows that there's more to financial planning than the numbers, but maybe you're not quite sure how to systematically bring the human side into your practice, I want to tell you about our foundations offering.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: This is a three-tiered offering that Meg Lurts and I created to help advisory firms integrate financial psychology into every area of support, from client support, advisor support, even including firm support.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: We have done for you quarterly trainings, bi-monthly case consultations, on-call one-on-one client coaching sessions, white label newsletters, client-facing tools, even strategic support that builds your team's confidence over time.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: If you're ready to transform how you show up for your clients, visit beyondthefp.com to reach out to us and start the conversation.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get back to the show.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: I think about this from I liked that you used the word framing because, you know, in the I'll say clinical world, even coaching world, like we talk about how to reframe something.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and framing is very important.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciate you saying that we don't ask, right?
24:13
SPEAKER_00: But we're gonna educate.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that matters from a place of safety, and I'll say just psychological safety, because I would imagine then that on the client end, there probably isn't this feeling of obligation, exploitation, you know, all of these things versus if you're educating me, right?
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Then it's uh okay.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Like now I understand a little bit about how this, um, how this works.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh and whether I decide to go out and refer or not, you know, is within my control.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: You've not asked me to, but you have educated me on how how things work and and I still feel safe with you, right?
24:59
SPEAKER_00: Clients, I would imagine probably, and maybe that's not consciously like going on, but subconsciously I could see where it maintains that level of psychological safety, uh, you know, with the advisor done that way.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Now, you mentioned you said a six-step, six-step process, something with six and process.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh do you mind sharing a little bit about that?
25:20
SPEAKER_01: Now let's go into that.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: So, our view, and these are views that we hold lightly, we will change with the evidence.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: And but our view is that at the beginning of an annual review meeting, the planner should just say to the client, Look, at the end of the meeting, I'd like to give you a bit of an update about the business.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: It's not a problem, we're not selling, we're not retiring, it's all good news, but I'd just like to give you a bit of an update about the business.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: Is that okay?
25:53
SPEAKER_01: The client will nod and say yes.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: And for me, that does two things.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: First thing it does is it means that when you get to the end of the meeting and the planner wants to give the business update, the client's not ambushed.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: They know it's coming.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: And secondly, the planner said they're going to do it, and therefore they need to hold themselves accountable at the end of the meeting by actually by actually doing it.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: So we do it as a business update.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: So the first step is to just signpost it and say we're going to give the business update.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Second step is to tell the client some good news that's going on with the business.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: We've taken on two members of staff, we got shortlisted for an award.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: We've had X number of reviews on Google, vouched for in the UK, wealth tender, US, wherever wherever it may be.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Um Jane has gone on maternity leave, or whatever it is, whatever it is, things going on with the business to bring the client a little bit closer to the to the business.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: So that's the that's the second step.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: The third step is to explain where the planner wants to take the business, and I would do this by being really specific and saying how many clients that planner wants to take on or can take on in the next 12 months.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: I think it's two reasons to do that, and I would be really specific with the number, really specific with the number.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And I say, I think there's two reasons to do that.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: The first is that some clients might not know instinctively that the planner wants to take on new clients and grow.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: So that shows what they do.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: Other people, this is one of the barriers to referring.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Other people might think, well, if I make too many referrals, they're gonna get too busy, service levels will drop, or they'll pass me on to a training advisor.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: So being really specific and talking through how you've got to that number, I don't know, eight new clients this year, shows you've thought about it and also introduces an element of scarcity.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Would you in that place, because I actually appreciate that you mentioned like the client side might be thinking like as a barrier, might be like, oh, I don't want to see I've got like five friends that definitely could need you, Phil, but I don't know.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Would you suggest, I guess, in being very specific, that they say something like, you know, we would love to take on 10 new clients, and you know, we say 10 because at 10, it still allows us to have the capacity to service, then everyone's still with the same level of care and due diligence, right?
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, would you, in being very specific, kind of name all of that out there to alleviate maybe any potential fears or worries that a client might be having?
28:59
SPEAKER_01: Personally, yes, I would explain how you got to that number.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: The the specificity of the number and the explanation of how you've got there should provide some reassurance to anybody who's concerned that a business might be growing too big too quick.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: No, that's clear.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, sorry to interrupt.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: I was I'm I'm I'm taking some personal notes here too, Phil.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: So, next step for me is to understand where the client is.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Are they in a position where they are advocates?
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Because if they're not, we need to have a different conversation.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: So if the firm has done a client survey within the past 12 months, they could refer back to that.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: If they haven't, then I would ask a couple of no-orientated questions.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Big fan of a no-oriented question.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: I've got Chris Volsa's book over there behind me.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: He's a master at that sort of stuff.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, and something along the lines of to check um whether they would be happy to recommend, are there any impediments to recommending, etc.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: And if at that point the client starts saying, yes, there's no way I'm going to recommend, I'm not happy about this, this, this, and this, you're going to take the off-ramp and have a completely different conversation, but still an incredibly useful conversation.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: So assuming they say, No, can't see any reason why I wouldn't recommend you, we can move on to the next step.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: Then the next step, the penultimate step, is really important for me.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: And this is where you're explaining to clients who in an ideal world you would be like to be recommended to.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: And if planners get this right, it massively increases the quality of referrals they receive and massively decreases the number of difficult conversations they need to have with somebody who has been referred but is not an ideal fit and they can't become a client.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: So here I would be sketching out almost little detail client personas, these are the types of people.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: So you're trying to impart that information to your client, and hopefully, some maybe even names are going through their head at that point.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Then the final and sixth step is educating those clients on how to make the introduction.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Now, clearly, the ideal is that the client sends an email, SMS message, WhatsApp message, whatever, to the planner, copying in their friend, family, work member, and joining the two together.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: That's the ideal.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: But we need to recognize that some people don't want to do that.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: So just talk about what they could pass on, some physical form of collateral or something like that.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: But for me, it's those six steps.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: You gain permission, you give the business updates, you explain where you want to take the business, you check whether they are happy to advocate, happy to refer on, and then you start the education of who to recommend to and how to do it.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a fantastic process.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: And I, full disclosure, cannot wait to write it down when we get off and do some brainstorming myself.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think what I like about it most, Phil, is that it just feels um there's an element there of where it just feels very natural and even just very conversational.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and maybe even I I'm envisioning like myself, like just a way of being like genuine and authentic with and throughout it.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, thinking about maybe for someone who is uncomfortable, like asking, you know, for referrals, knowing like as a business owner, maybe not even a business owner, but knowing like, hey, there's an element of growing my practice, my business, where referrals are important and I need to be like, I need to be doing that, but how do I do it in a way that's doesn't feel icky?
33:05
SPEAKER_00: I think that this process really, it really answers that.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: At least for me, it does.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'm grateful.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm grateful that you shared that.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: Now, I am curious, just your thoughts around, you know, we kind of talked about earlier, like the uh the person who might be going to, you know, search engines and looking up who can they work with as an advisor.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: And you know, AI is really now becoming a search engine in and of itself for um finding people.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you recommend or encourage advisors to maybe be doing or be aware of to I don't want to say pop up more in like AI search engines, but I guess I'd love to hear just kind of your thoughts there on things that advisors can be doing as it relates to AI searches.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: So I think we're moving from a world where advisors were just putting referrals to one side for a second, we're moving a to a world where AI is recommending as opposed to Google providing visibility.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Because if somebody typed into Google Financial Advisor near me, it'd produce a list, wouldn't it?
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Maybe some adverts, you've got the business section, and then the blue link.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: But it that's about visibility, and then the human needs to go and do the do the hard work.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Whereas AI does that bit, but then does the hard work of maybe ranking the firms.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: So that's about making sure that or trying to improve the chances of AI recommending your firms as opposed to Google about visibility.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'm aware that if you type something to Google, you might type a traditional search into Google, you might get an AI response as well.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: So that's and one of the we've done a lot of work on this over the course of the past maybe 12-15 months with with our clients, and we've seen six-month rolling average of traffic to financial planner websites from AI 118% over the last six months.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: A big rise.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: It's coming from a low base, but it's a big rise, and it doesn't take long to see how those numbers can get really quite interesting.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: And there's only one direction of travel here.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: So for me, those advisors who want to be recommended by AI need to focus on doing two things.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: The first is putting source information out on their website and elsewhere on the internet, and source information is designed to provide the information that AI needs to answer humans' questions.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: So one of the things we're working with our clients on at the moment is adding really detailed FAQs to websites.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: Really granular questions.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, can I see a female planner, for example?
36:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh, do you charge fixed fees but advaluan percentage fees?
36:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, here in the UK, are you independent?
36:24
SPEAKER_01: Can you meet face-to-face or online?
36:27
SPEAKER_01: All those granular questions that somebody might be asking ChatGPT to find the answers to.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Other types of source information for me that you would put on the website are things like the type of people you work with.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: So we know most financial advisors' websites are not very good.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: And they will talk about savings, pensions, for MLKs, investments, that sort of stuff.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: Very few of them talk about the type of people they work with.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: So we need to be getting information on websites about the type of information, sorry, the type of people that firms work with.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: So that's the first thing, getting source information out there.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: And then the second thing we work with firms on is uh showcasing expertise indicators.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: So indicators that a firm or a planner is an expert in working with insert the type of the client.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: So what could that be?
37:34
SPEAKER_01: That could be Google reviews, aware in some parts of the US that can be problematic.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: It could be reviews on other platforms, trustpilot, uh reviews.io, wealth tender vouched for, those sorts of things.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: It could be client testimonial videos, it could be client survey results, it could be awards, mentions in the press, podcast appearances, that sort of thing.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: And what we're looking for firms to do is assimilate those indicators of expertise, showcase them on their website, but then showcase them in other places as well.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: So that when a human goes to AI, recommend three financial advisors in, or back to the referral point, I've been recommended to these three financial advisors who is the best fit for me.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: The firm is giving the information that AI needs to answer the question and is demonstrating their expertise to impress the AI to increase the chances of it making the recommendation.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting here with is it seems like, and I'm probably oversimplifying it when I say this, so forgive me, but it seems like a lot of this is really understanding who the human is that you're trying to work with, and then communicating that explicitly, right, from the website, from everything that you just shared, right?
39:05
SPEAKER_00: Who is the human that I'm really working with or want to work with?
39:08
SPEAKER_00: What are they like from all like aspects?
39:11
SPEAKER_00: And now how do I how do I communicate that so that they find me?
39:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's too simplistic, uh, but that's what just was coming up for me is listening to you talk about the FAQs and getting really granular and like describing like all this and answering those questions, right?
39:28
SPEAKER_00: There is who is this person?
39:30
SPEAKER_00: And you know, how do I and how do I help them?
39:33
SPEAKER_00: Is that fair to say?
39:34
SPEAKER_01: I absolutely think it is.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: I think it's about understanding what gets them out of bed in the morning, uh what keeps them awake at night, what's important to them.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: What are they where do they hang out online?
39:49
SPEAKER_01: What will they be searching for?
39:50
SPEAKER_01: What's important to them?
39:51
SPEAKER_01: So if they're typing the prompt into AI, a 35-year-old accumulator will probably type in something different than their 65-year-old parents who are looking for a planet.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: So understanding people is just absolutely the root of this and is at the heart of successful marketing.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, Phil, I think that that last statement there is a wonderful way to work towards wrapping us up, unfortunately, sadly, but what a great like mic drop kind of way for us to kind of wrap up this conversation.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: I enjoy all of the conversations that I have with people.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: And I I always learn from them.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: However, I feel like maybe it's just the place that I'm in right now from a business standpoint.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: I have learned so much here from you.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like serious when I say I'll be going back through and like writing down the notes and looking through uh ways in which I can improve uh that feel very, again, just kind of down to earth and genuine.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, because that is that's important, at least to me.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: So uh grateful to have you here, grateful for you sharing all of your wisdom.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: If people want more fill in their life, where can they find you?
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about how they can reach you.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: So I think there's there's three places.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh we can go to the the Artstick website, theartstickagency.co.uk.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh go and find me on LinkedIn.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: I spend entirely too much time on LinkedIn.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do enjoy it.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: So go and look me up there.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: And we have a webinar coming up in February about AI and marketing.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: And you kindly said you put the link in the show notes as well.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Phil, for sharing all of that.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: We'll make sure that we include those links in the show notes.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: And thank you to all of you out there for tuning in today, allowing Phil and I into your ears and into your mind and allowing us to be a part of your week.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful for you.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: If you found this conversation valuable, if it resonated with you, I would love to keep the connection going.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: Like Phil, I spend entirely too much time on LinkedIn.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: So you can absolutely go on.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: You can find me uh at LinkedIn, uh at Ashley Kwame, where I share weekly insights on the human side of planning.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: You can also find us on YouTube.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: We have a YouTube channel at BeyondThePlan Solutions.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can hang out with us there, Meg and I, where we post videos uh weekly.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: You can also subscribe to our newsletter.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: We have a monthly newsletter that goes out.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you can subscribe to that by heading over to www.beyondthefp.com.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: Make sure though, most importantly, make sure that you follow the show so that you never miss a future conversation like this one.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: And as always, my friends, remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
43:04
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43:09
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43:15
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43:40
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