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The hidden side of projects: Why they fail and what you can do about it · Project Podcast

• 0:08
  Welcome to the IPM. Podcast, OPM is the childhood
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  body for the project profession. My name is Emma divita, I'm the
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  editor of project opm's quarterly journal, and your
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  host. And this podcast, I'm speaking
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  with VIP fires, co-author with strategy and performance expert,
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  dr. Thomas fifl of a new book called
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  gorilla in the cockpit, breaking the hidden patterns of project
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  failure in the system. System for Success.
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  This is founder of a company that specializes in
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  breakthrough, performance and large projects.
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  He's been a visiting consultant at the London, Business School
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  and an executive consultant at side business school, at the
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  University of Oxford his book. He says is the products of over
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  a quarter of a century is investment in tackling and
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  turning around, Heidi complex projects across many sectors,
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  including banking fmcg, government digital technology
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  and Renewables. He's here today to share what he
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  has learnt about wine. Most projects fail, what makes
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  some projects to success and how you can become a better project
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  leader. Welcome VIP.
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  Congratulations on your book. Thanks for sparing, the time and
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  talking to us today. Yeah, real pleasure.
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  Emma, why did you want to write the book now?
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  And can you tell us briefly what it's about what you cover?
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  It's about looking at organizations and projects and
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  change from a different and you could even call it a unique
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  perspective and it's a perspective that isn't found in
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  traditional project management Mo, which is why I wanted to
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  Write it and it's also more importance of perspective that
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  that's not really included in the development of professionals
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  within the industry. And I think the second part of
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  your question is why don't why did we write it?
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  I think Tom said I basically wrote it because if you look at
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  it statistically you know everybody knows that 65% of
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  projects in change fail failing the sense of hitting the you
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  know the the sort of expectations and project and
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  cost. So this is something that we've
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  known for decades. It's not something that's new.
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  And also, neither is the fact that there's been an absolute
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  tons of analysis, probably thousands, if not millions of
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  reports, all of that, sort of gives you a sort of explanations
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  and reasons and justifications as to why projects fail.
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  But, you know, despite all of that and all the recommendations
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  that have come out of all that analysis, the fact of the matter
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  is that projects are still failing today.
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  So I kind of use the analogy that, you know, of losing
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  weight, you know, which is something.
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  I My I'm struggling with, you know.
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  And and and, you know, we all know, the two things you need to
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  do to lose weight, right? I need to eat less and I need to
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  exercise more, but somehow knowing those answers makes very
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  little difference. So, when I look at project, it
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  has kind of a question of what, cleans?
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  There's something. There's something must be off,
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  right? We've got all these
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  explanations, but we're not producing results.
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  So something must be off something.
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  That we must collectively be blind too.
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  And that's really why we wrote the book.
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  From everything you've learned about working on big large
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  projects around the world. What would you say that?
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  The reason is why most projects fail because this is the
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  dimension. Really?
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  That your book, the perspective, your book takes, I mean it comes
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  down to the people side of things, doesn't it?
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  Yeah, it does cut. It does come down to the people
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  side of things and it's strange enough.
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  We're not actually attacking the people.
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  You know, it's not that's not the business that we're in but
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  and quite frankly. And then, you know, if I look at
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  most of the projects, I've been on the vast majority of people
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  come come to work every day, wanting to do a good job.
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  You know, there's very, very few occasions.
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  I can think of that someone came into deliberately undermine
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  something. So you know, we're not we're not
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  attacking, you know, people what we are attacking I guess is the,
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  is the construct of thinking that project leaders and
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  Leadership have been trained inside of and in the book you
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  know, we you know we highlight how much of that arises from a
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  very mechanical view of looking at project leadership and
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  project delivery. So so that's really what we're
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  sort of pointing at my channels that I've been working on Mega
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  projects for over five decades combined, right.
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  And one of the questions I asked very often is, you know, what do
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  you find is the most challenging aspect of the Project.
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  Is it the technical issues or is it people in capability?
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  And if I look at it, the ratio is sort of, you know, almost 80%
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  of the time. People say, the biggest issue is
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  people in capability and the technical issues are about 20%.
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  But if you look at traditional project management, it tends to
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  focus mostly on that 20 percent rather than the 80%.
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  So, what's happening, what why is the kind of thinking side of
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  things letting projects down? What are we doing wrong?
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  In the book, we will use the metaphor of a plane fly to
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  illustrate what happens on most projects.
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  So as a simple example, imagine that you're in New York and you
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  know some crisis has happened and you've got to get on a plane
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  and you got to rush out to London to fix it and you know,
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  and so you rush over to the airport you get on the plane and
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  and like most people, you know, fall asleep.
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  And, you know, sometime later the plane lands and, you know,
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  the doors open you expecting to be in London, but you actually
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  find Off in the middle of Tokyo. And, you know, those kinds of
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  deviations are very, very rare in aviation.
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  I mean they do happen sometimes but that that, that sort of
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  storyline seems to happen a lot in project.
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  So you know, they start off at their some location.
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  A the intention is to get to be. But in practice they end up in C
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  and and see isn't what they wanted and it cost a lot more
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  and you know, and and it takes a lot longer.
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  So so the so we don't that's that's Like what are the
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  Frameworks that we have? You know, there's something
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  going on and the thing about the framework is that we build on
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  this idea of a plane flight by saying, well, let's imagine that
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  an organization has both a white box and a black box and in a
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  white box is basically everything that you already know
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  about the project. So, you know, this is a, this
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  includes this works, the risks the, you know, the Ocean.
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  The the budget, all those things, you know, and then
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  there's this other part of the, the organization, which is the
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  black box, which is what the the leadership team is not aware of
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  and it's not aware that it's not aware of it.
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  So it's literally, you know, like the hidden dimension of
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  the, of the entire organization. So so, you know, so why you know
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  why do projects fail? Because I think a lot of it is
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  because there's this Machinery in the background of you Of
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  biases and limiting, beliefs, and distorted beliefs, and
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  there's all of that in the background, which the, which
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  very often the leadership team can't see.
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  And it's actually the Machinery that's actually running the
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  entire project. I mean, there was a kind of
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  paragraph in the book, which I thought some this out really
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  well, and I haven't read anywhere else.
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  And it was, it was what you said.
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  It's about the stuff in the background in the shadows, it
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  was in what people did not say. Could you elaborate on that?
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  Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, you know,
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  if I take an example, I mean we were working on a very large
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  Rail Project out in Asia, and we were brought into this
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  particular project after the fifth Project Director had just
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  been appointed. And this particular project
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  wasn't doing wasn't doing well, it was in the media.
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  And when we came in and we started to look at the Black
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  Box, what? Came apparent to the leadership,
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  team in the intervention was they had something like, 3 to 4
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  thousand people coming to the project every day, but in the
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  background, there was a conversation.
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  We call it background conversation, which was some
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  version of, there's nothing we can do.
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  You know, there was a, there was almost like a state of
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  resignation, so people would come in.
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  A lot of people were actually didn't want the project to be on
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  their bio, because it wouldn't look good.
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  And a number of, Them would actually be spending time, you
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  know, Finding up recruiters to see what other project they
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  could get on. So so basically it's a when the
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  leadership seems started to see that what was actually in, you
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  know, running the entire show was this, you know, just this
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  sense of there's nothing that we can do to impact the future and
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  and that you know, and and and when you looked at the
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  behaviors, you know, when he went to the porter, cabins, you
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  a pin drop silence, you know, nobody was talking about
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  anything and, you know, this had been going on for a long time.
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  And and in fact in that, you know, when, when the leadership
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  team actually saw both, what was going on and the impact of that,
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  and the trajectory that was creating for the project that
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  actually provided an opening for the actual project and, you
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  know, and one of the conversation we fundamentally
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  had inside the project was okay, we not may not be able to impact
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  the past, but there is a certain amount of future that's still
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  left there and there's something we can bring to that.
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  And and and and we did. I mean No, with the what was
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  remaining in the project. There was a significant uptick
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  on on performance. But, you know and and really
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  what was driving the show for a long, long time, was some
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  version of you know, the resignation.
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  There was a lot of upset on the project, you know, decisions
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  weren't being made the governance structure was getting
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  more and more ownerís. So, there's all these things
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  coming together, creating a perfect storm.
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  And, and, and the leadership team really did.
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  Have a read on that. To ask an obvious question.
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  Many came into the project. How do you go about opening the
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  lid, on the black box? So, how do you actually go in
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  and take a measure? A kind of litmus test of how
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  people are feeling about the project.
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  It depends on the size of the project.
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  So if I mean, there is a diagnostic phase, right?
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  Where we will interview key leaders and it could be right
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  across the supply chain. If it's a joint venture be the
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  joint venture Partners could be the investors as well.
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  So there's a science of that diagnostic will depend on the
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  project and the phase that it's at.
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  And the type of challenges have got and the, the questions that
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  we've got a been prepared in such a way that they're designed
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  to reveal, what's in the back in the black box.
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  So, the first part is the, is that diagnostic?
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  Then the, the second key thing is, is how the way in which we
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  go about setting up the, the, if you like the social environment
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  in the room. So we use that Diagnostic and
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  bring it straight into the Either it's an executive work
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  session or whether it's a you know going directly into their
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  project itself. The key thing is creating a
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  space with the people in the room where there's a willingness
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  to really listen to both the good and the Bad and the Ugly.
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  How do you actually do that in practice because that's easier
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  said than done. How do you make that happen for
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  real? Yeah.
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  So how we make it happen for real is but you know one of the
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  conversation we have is that most projects have an invisible.
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  Three, most organizations have an invisible trajectory.
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  So so the, you know, so when we are, when we're getting into the
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  black box and revealing, what's there, you know, whatever's in
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  there, is there anyway, right? It's already there.
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  So, the question is, you know, the people that we've got in the
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  room that they're there because they're leaders, and they're
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  there, because they're in a position where they can, they
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  have a say about how the future goes.
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  So, now, in order to have that kind, Kind of conversation.
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  What we need to have is a certain level of agreement with
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  each other around, what's going to be, you know, what's coming?
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  What's going to be revealed and how we're going to relate to
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  that because you know, for some people it could be a degree of
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  upset, right? Or some people could be
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  surprised for some people. They may be listening to what's
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  their from whether they agree with it or disagree with it or
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  whether they like it or dislike it and one of the things I say
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  is look, you know, all of those places to listen from will make
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  no difference. They're make zero difference
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  because you can either sit in you know in the next three to
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  four hours disagreeing you're agreeing and and walk away with
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  just that or we have a conversation where we start to
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  reveal what's actually in the background.
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  That's pulling the future and start to unhook, whatever's
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  going on. So that we've actually we're
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  creating the possibility of something new to arise.
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  And so that you know so there's the one of the fundamental
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  conversations we have is about being in the room about being in
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  the conversation. The nature of the conversation,
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  we're going to have their willingness to have that kind of
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  conversation and fundamentally. Can we count on them to
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  participate at the level of being a leader of this
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  conversation? Because this is what's going on?
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  What is going to take and contextually a very often Emma.
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  That conversation is got billions of dollars if not
• 13:46
  hundreds of millions of dollars or even more, At stake.
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  So so so you know so we make it and if people don't participate
• 13:53
  in that they're, you know, they don't have to.
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  But we have the all of that pre work done up front.
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  So that by the time they come into the meeting and while
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  they're in the meeting, they know the the nature of the work
• 14:05
  that we're going to be doing. How do people respond normally?
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  I mean, I'm assuming you have to deliver some bad news about the
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  way the project has seen. It is a very it's a great
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  question Edge and my because for the you know, for the most part
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  people are really relieved. People are really the.
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  It's almost like it's almost like God.
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  Thank God. Someone's actually saying what's
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  really going on. So it's, you know, it's so and
• 14:30
  by the time we know we'd get into the report and and rather
• 14:35
  than just telling them what the report is Actually get different
• 14:39
  people to actually read elements.
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  The report said becomes very, very real for them and and and
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  the report is designed and the whole process is designed in the
• 14:48
  way they can actually see their entire project in operation.
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  So it's not like a some kind of sanitized clinical report.
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  It's more a sort of report there where they can add when they
• 15:01
  read it. When I when when they digested
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  they get a sense of. Hey, this is really what's going
• 15:05
  on. And for the most part, it's just
• 15:08
  relief because some of those issues have been at Play hidden
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  or or, you know, or are affecting the Dynamics and the
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  kind of thinking all the project they've been there for some
• 15:21
  time. Okay, everyone is relieved and
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  then you have to turn it around. So how on Earth do you do that?
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  How do you do try and make a clean break with the past and
• 15:33
  what has been? How do you re motivate people
• 15:36
  who are there on the project knowingly looking for jobs
• 15:39
  elsewhere? Well I mean the third the first
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  part of it is actually to work with the team so they can see
• 15:49
  the predictable trajectory of the project.
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  If He's done. Right?
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  So if they if you know with what with what gets revealed you know
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  and we sort of just a map it out a few few quarters or even the
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  remainder of the project they'll stop to see that there is a
• 16:06
  certain predictable future that that what's in the black box is
• 16:10
  giving them and and you know and then we have a number of
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  conversations. One is about what the nature of
• 16:17
  leadership is and you know and sometimes I ask a very
• 16:21
  provocative question which is Why are you paid so much more
• 16:27
  money than the people who actually delivered the job,
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  right? And so, you know, and it's a and
• 16:34
  and people and this, you know, this is the top leadership teams
• 16:36
  and they really sometimes struggle with that question
• 16:39
  because very often, they'll say, well, I'm being paid for my
• 16:42
  expertise or my my technical knowledge.
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  And actually, that's not the reason why organizations paid
• 16:51
  top leaders to so much more money.
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  The reason why they pay them so much more money is because
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  they've got to make a future happen that wasn't going to
• 17:01
  happen. Anyhow.
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  See that. So to so this is actually why
• 17:05
  they're in the room because that whatever is there in the black
• 17:08
  box is exactly what they're being paid to deliver to to work
• 17:13
  with and that's why they get the big bucks.
• 17:16
  So it's a very, very simple view of leadership.
• 17:18
  And I know there's hundreds and thousands of books about it by
• 17:21
  sometimes like to really simplify.
• 17:23
  So people in the room, have a very clear picture of what it is
• 17:27
  that they're being paid for. And, and they do and that is
• 17:31
  actually, it's not like a threat, it's just like that.
• 17:34
  Just that just is the case if, you know, if that's what the
• 17:36
  shareholders are expecting. So, I think, you know, that that
• 17:40
  in itself, kind of clarifies that rather than trying to avoid
• 17:43
  what's in the Black Box. This is the nature of what comes
• 17:47
  with the leadership parole that they have and, and they know and
• 17:50
  then we start to look at. Well, you know, the question of
• 17:52
  given where we've got to, you know, what is possible in say,
• 17:56
  the remaining time that's left or are available.
• 18:01
  So, so, you know, so we can meet up, we move the conversation for
• 18:04
  into a very, very different space, and that's from that
• 18:07
  space, you know, be a whole new set of ideas and opportunities
• 18:12
  and all those sort of things arise and how to use.
• 18:15
  And Take that down to the people delivering the project.
• 18:19
  And to show to them that. Yes, changes are going to
• 18:22
  happen. Yeah.
• 18:24
  And that made this is actually a big struggle for a lot of real
• 18:28
  leaders. I'd say it's not just about
• 18:30
  creating a new destination if you like on their project or
• 18:35
  even reorienting, the project to the original destination.
• 18:39
  It's more they need to shift the context.
• 18:43
  Of the entire project. And as part of that, what you
• 18:47
  know, it's not just any old context, there's got to be a
• 18:49
  context that engages and inspires those people that are
• 18:53
  reporting into them. So actually that that that that,
• 18:57
  you know, crafting the communication, the messaging,
• 19:00
  and getting picked their inner all the key Champions involved
• 19:04
  and that know that in itself is quite a significant piece of
• 19:08
  work because very often the, you know, the rest of the
• 19:12
  organization. Maybe stuck in a set of opinions
• 19:17
  and views of how the project has been and and you know you need
• 19:21
  to create a break from that past so that you know so that you've
• 19:25
  got a new possibility in the future for how that produce
• 19:29
  going to go. Have you got any advice to
• 19:33
  project managers or project leaders working on for smaller
• 19:36
  projects in? You're used to doing with about
• 19:38
  how to do that because that could apply to any project to
• 19:40
  project to people are losing motivation.
• 19:43
  Things aren't going well, yeah. Well I mean a simple one is to
• 19:48
  me, there's no number of things you can do but one is, you know,
• 19:52
  we're a very much a future driven species, you know, the
• 19:56
  how the future looks is is constantly on our mind.
• 20:02
  And it what, you know, one piece is how is crafting or designing
• 20:07
  a future with the leadership team that both compelling and at
• 20:12
  the same time it's authentic. So that?
• 20:15
  No. So if you know the rest when
• 20:18
  the, when the rest of the organization listen to that
• 20:20
  future. There's been created.
• 20:22
  They can hear it as inlets. That's actually achievable, it
• 20:25
  might be a stretch, but we could actually achieve that rather
• 20:27
  than it's pie-in-the-sky. So I think that they know the
• 20:31
  Way that's crafted and the way that's put together is is is is
• 20:37
  important. Just to give an example from
• 20:39
  many, many years ago, there was a, this is actually a colleague
• 20:45
  of mine who I worked with in. It's an example from him, but he
• 20:49
  was working in a pharmaceutical company and, you know, and in
• 20:51
  that particular industry, it takes quite a long time.
• 20:56
  For drugs, to go from origin, the idea to the marketplace.
• 21:01
  And this particular company is working on drugs for you, for
• 21:07
  infants, right? And so the, you know, it's a,
• 21:10
  how do you motivate people where, you know, when they're
• 21:13
  coming into the lab and they could be spending years, just
• 21:15
  testing various compounds and they created a slogan or of or
• 21:22
  future which was the patient is waiting.
• 21:25
  And then they had a couple of pictures of young babies, right?
• 21:29
  Newborn babies. So when you walked into the lab,
• 21:33
  he became very clear, what your what, you know, what you're
• 21:36
  there for. And if that hadn't been there,
• 21:40
  you know, would be just case of coming into the lab and do
• 21:42
  another day's work. So there's a, there's a massive
• 21:46
  shift in the context. So it's about presenting that
• 21:49
  Future Vision would be real one day, making sure that everyone
• 21:54
  seeing that, that's what you're working together to create.
• 21:58
  Yeah. And it's and there's, and
• 21:59
  there's a subtlety to that as well.
• 22:00
  They're Moritz. I'm not like a vision that
• 22:03
  you're just driving for. It's actually standing in that
• 22:08
  Vision being fulfilled and then looking into the present as to
• 22:14
  what's needed in a required and the intensity of that.
• 22:19
  So it's a very it's a basically it's not like you're trying to
• 22:23
  stretch for something. It's like you're standing in its
• 22:26
  fulfillment and then you're looking at, okay.
• 22:31
  So what's required now inside of that and then you know very
• 22:37
  often there's huge gaps in the organization, in terms of you
• 22:41
  know the initiatives that people are focusing on where the
• 22:43
  resources are so becomes a becomes a very real exercise.
• 22:48
  If you like, what advice would you give to project leaders or
• 22:52
  want to be project leaders who are have set their sights on
• 22:56
  working on a major project or a large project about what they
• 22:59
  should be doing? Right?
• 23:01
  From the start to get a project going along the right lines?
• 23:07
  Yeah. That what I'd say to at least
• 23:09
  two things immediately that the first is, the first one is don't
• 23:13
  ignore. What's happening in the black
• 23:14
  box, right? That's the first thing, the
• 23:17
  second thing in the book, we have, we call them the 10
• 23:22
  anti-cat, crash instruments. And they're actually really a
• 23:29
  toolbox of practices. So, so they're not just merely
• 23:33
  checklist. So, what I would do is, is go to
• 23:36
  that chapter because they're what we've got, there are a set
• 23:40
  of tools that project leaders can use in different situations.
• 23:46
  So so, for example, if you're in pre-flight mode, which is to say
• 23:50
  you're at the design phase, you know, the type of challenges and
• 23:54
  issues and concerns are very different to say you are when
• 23:58
  you're in flight. And one of the engines catches
• 24:01
  Fire, right? So the the those those
• 24:04
  instruments are a set of practices and you know if we
• 24:11
  take a physical example, right? So if you've got a tube, got
• 24:14
  boxed the situations where you use a screwdriver are very
• 24:18
  different to the situations where you use a hammer, right?
• 24:20
  And and a lot of the work that we actually do on Mega projects
• 24:23
  is is actually using that that toolbox and developing that
• 24:28
  capability from within the the projects.
• 24:30
  So that That that people can immediately see, which tool is
• 24:34
  the right one to use. So that's one thing I would
• 24:36
  Point people to and just as an example, a simple example of one
• 24:41
  of those tools in the book, you know, we have the introduced the
• 24:46
  the, this practice called working in versus working on.
• 24:51
  So you know, when you're working in a project that's very
• 24:54
  different to the practice of working on the project.
• 24:58
  And so if you take for example, say a ninja Hearing team that's
• 25:03
  facing like, you know, it's got a list of 50 problems that
• 25:06
  they're working on and totally working in the project and in
• 25:12
  and everyone's overwhelmed and they know they're not getting
• 25:14
  the traction. They want, it's really very
• 25:17
  useful to press the pause button and get out of the, you know,
• 25:21
  get out the cockpit and get into the air traffic control.
• 25:24
  And actually, you know, and start working on the project and
• 25:27
  what that simply means is asking a different set of questions.
• 25:30
  So the first set of questions, This could be around.
• 25:31
  Well what is the nature of the problem?
• 25:34
  So, is the nature of the problem at your technical issue or is
• 25:38
  the nature of the problem of a system or process that slowing
• 25:42
  things down or is it a mindset issue of key individuals?
• 25:46
  Or is it a fact that we've actually got tools and
• 25:49
  processes? But somehow this, it's a
• 25:51
  behavioral issue because people are not doing what they said
• 25:54
  they would do, right? So we say no way you can
• 25:57
  actually start to ask different questions and if, you know,
• 26:00
  historically. So you've got 50 problems and
• 26:03
  you only ever saw Really solve 30 of them, you might even want
• 26:07
  to ask yourself and say, well their likelihood of we're not
• 26:09
  going to get around to all of these so which are the most
• 26:12
  pressing ones that we need to focus our resources on.
• 26:14
  So so it's an example of a practice that that would make an
• 26:18
  enormous difference. But in terms of coordinating the
• 26:21
  activities and resources of a large group of people, what is
• 26:26
  the most common error problem, that arises, that could have
• 26:29
  been avoided. If the project leader or
• 26:32
  director or project manager, Had focus focus on it.
• 26:36
  I don't think there is just one, I think it's more like a perfect
• 26:41
  storm in the book. We've got, we look at the black
• 26:45
  box in a bit more detail where you have three types of biases.
• 26:50
  You know, there's you know, there's hundreds of different
• 26:52
  types of biases and we've sort of categorized them to make them
• 26:55
  more easier to work on. And so, one place I would look
• 27:01
  at is your own personal leadership.
• 27:04
  Chip because very often project. Managers and project leaders are
• 27:09
  unaware of the type of condition they're creating in the
• 27:12
  environment around them. So that is now that's one place.
• 27:16
  I would look at a second place would be to look at.
• 27:19
  You know, what are the social and Collective Agreement.
• 27:22
  So these would be what we call the we biases which are
• 27:26
  sometimes you can have teams of people start to get into
• 27:32
  groupthink and and the Type of decisions where the, you know,
• 27:35
  the the Agreements are coming up with may be totally out of whack
• 27:38
  with reality. So, so that's the second thing
• 27:42
  is to be, this is to try to detect what agreements and and
• 27:47
  that are there that may be actually counterproductive,
• 27:51
  right? So, that's another place.
• 27:52
  I'd look at. And the third set of biases is
• 27:55
  what we call. The, it type of biases, which is
• 27:58
  the type of decisions that are actually being made in that we
• 28:01
  do, you know, where the decisions are coming from.
• 28:02
  So, for instance, you know, We just had a conversation
• 28:06
  yesterday with someone that's got a massive portfolio of
• 28:10
  projects. And what we discovered in that
• 28:14
  conversation was most of the project managers were just
• 28:18
  working on their own project. The what was missing was
• 28:24
  decision-making around the whole portfolio, delivering an outcome
• 28:28
  to the to the country. If you're an individual and you
• 28:33
  aspire to be a project leader of a mega project, one day would
• 28:37
  have a good piece of advice be for you to try and work on teams
• 28:42
  alongside project leaders who get things right?
• 28:46
  So you see in the real world. What works what doesn't Yeah, I
• 28:53
  think that's absolutely. I think that's absolutely
• 28:56
  accurate because you pick up a lot from just the way they're
• 28:59
  being the way. They are operating the practices
• 29:01
  they have though the way they think about problems.
• 29:04
  I think I think one of the the most valuable things is to
• 29:08
  actually get into how it is that they're seeing the situation.
• 29:12
  You know, one of the I mean this is our thing that we have in the
• 29:15
  book where people are novices. They you know they tend to look
• 29:20
  at the problem and try and find an answer straight away.
• 29:24
  Whereas people have been facing those problems, they tend to
• 29:29
  step back a bit and watch and ask questions about you know,
• 29:32
  what's the context? What's really going on here?
• 29:35
  You know what are the interrelations between different
• 29:37
  aspects of the problem so you get a much richer picture of
• 29:41
  what you're actually dealing with.
• 29:42
  And I think, and I think there's a lot to learn from from people
• 29:46
  who've got that, you know, that experience, especially, you
• 29:49
  know, those people who've got a track record of being able to
• 29:53
  deliver projects on time or manage stakeholder relationships
• 29:57
  in a particularly effective and productive manner.
• 30:00
  So I think there's a huge amount that you can learn from each
• 30:02
  other. Are there any other practical
• 30:04
  resources you could Point listeners to any other books?
• 30:08
  Actually might be good for project leaders to read.
• 30:11
  Actually, I'm a The the biggest thing I've found from because we
• 30:14
  had quite a lot of people buying the book and a lot of people
• 30:17
  reaching out the most the most frequent question.
• 30:22
  I'm being asked, is how do we bring the book to life?
• 30:26
  You know, how visito people are really interested in the ideas?
• 30:28
  But how can we start to realize it?
• 30:31
  So so one of the things that we have actually developed recently
• 30:35
  is a masterclass around the book and the intention of that is to
• 30:40
  bring all those Concepts to life.
• 30:42
  It's a kind of Master Class where they can actually take the
• 30:45
  concepts and apply it directly on life projects that they're
• 30:49
  working on. So so I think that, you know,
• 30:51
  people are interested in that, I think you can provide the, the
• 30:54
  email address to this podcast and they can reach out to us.
• 30:58
  That sounds great. We'll put that in the episode
• 31:00
  description. It just leaves me to say, well,
• 31:03
  thanks again for your time. Real pleasure.
• 31:06
  Thanks Emma. Thanks again to have it for
• 31:14
  joining us. If you want to get in touch with
• 31:15
  him, email him director connect, at VIP via space.com.
• 31:21
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• 31:24
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• 31:27
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• 31:30
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