Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ John Conyers III - Growing Up in the Shadow of Power & The Civil Rights Movement

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Interview Only w/ John Conyers III - Growing Up in the Shadow of Power & The Civil Rights Movement · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: when you see the title of this book written by
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  Speaker 1: my next guest here, it's called My Father's House, and
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  Speaker 1: you see the last name of Kanye, and you're a
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: political sophisticate or junkie like myself, you probably think you
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: already know what kind of book this is. Oh, it
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  Speaker 1: must be a political biography, a celebration, a civil rights victory,
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  Speaker 1: lab maybe even a defense of some sort. This book
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: is none of these things. This isn't really a book.
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  Speaker 1: About John Conyers, the legendary member of Congress from Detroit,
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  Speaker 1: even though he was one of the most consequential figures
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  Speaker 1: of the modern civil rights era. What this is is
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  Speaker 1: a book about what it's like to grow up inside power,
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  Speaker 1: to inherit a legacy you didn't choose to live in
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  Speaker 1: a house built by history, and to discover that some
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: rooms were never safe to enter and some conversations were
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  Speaker 1: never allowed to happen. John Conyers a Third doesn't write
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  Speaker 1: as an apologist, and he doesn't write as a provocateur either.
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  Speaker 1: He writes as a son trying to understand how a
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  Speaker 1: public giant could be both indispensable to a movement and
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  Speaker 1: deeply complicated in private. This is a fascinating book, and
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  Speaker 1: it's a and John Conyre's the third, the son of
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the late John Conyers Junior, really opened himself up in here.
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  Speaker 1: And John Conyor's the third author of My Father's House,
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  Speaker 1: joins me. Now, John, good to see.
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  Speaker 2: You, to see you as well, Thank you for having me.
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  Speaker 2: It's an honor to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Well, let me start with that introduction I gave to
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  Speaker 1: your book, because look, I opened it assuming one thing,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: and after going through it you're like, Okay, I'm you
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  Speaker 1: wrote a book that I wish Al Gore had written.
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  Speaker 2: You wrote a.
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  Speaker 1: Book that I've always wanted to know if Harold Ford Jr.
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  Speaker 1: Wanted to write this. I really am fascinated by those
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: who basically were raised in power. Right now, it wasn't
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  Speaker 1: a choice, right Your career path was destined for you, perhaps,
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  Speaker 1: or or at least the path was cleared if you
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  Speaker 1: chose to take it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's it.
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  Speaker 1: You offered an insider account in a way that I'd
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: never seen before. So I'll shut up now and tell me.
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  Speaker 1: Tell me whether that intro did capture the book.
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  Speaker 2: It captured it well.
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  Speaker 3: First, I would say that I would offer and thank
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: you for grasping that nuance. So many of the conversations
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: that I've had about the book to the point you
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  Speaker 3: made about assuming or presuming that it would be strictly
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: about my father, the conversations have.
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  Speaker 2: Been just that, only about him.
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  Speaker 3: And I don't know whether the whether the interview or
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: only read for that. But what's tucked away in the
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: book is like a young person trying to make sense
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  Speaker 3: of this world and make sense of this going between
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  Speaker 3: two worlds, which I touch on my mother's side of
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  Speaker 3: the family still being somewhat in poverty and me being
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: trapped between these two spaces and trying to make sense
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  Speaker 3: of it all and find my place.
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  Speaker 2: Of it own. But yeah, I mean, I'll start with
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  Speaker 2: I never intended to write a book.
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  Speaker 1: That was going to be And would you have written
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  Speaker 1: this if he were alive?
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  Speaker 3: No, I would have it, would have this book would
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: have never been written by me if the things that
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: happened in twenty seventeen don't happen. He we had, we
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: had a book deal on the table with hashit and
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: it was a very considerable book deal, and then literally
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: as we were finalizing and negotiating, all those things happened,
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: and so everything fundamentally changes.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Unrell, Yeah, this is when all those allegations get you know,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: you to lead, not to lead with that, but no,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: and I wasn't intending to do it. But it's funny
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: you bring it up. I have this. I have a
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: small odd story that goes with this, where the day
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  Speaker 1: that your father announced that he was resigning, it was
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  Speaker 1: a Sunday morning.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 1: I remember it quite well because I had Nancy Pelosi
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: on Meet the Press. The report had gotten out.
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  Speaker 2: She did not know this yet, which.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: I found, or at least she claimed she didn't. I
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: don't quite know, and it really created quite the weird
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Put it this way, she never would sit down with
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  Speaker 1: an interview with me again over the circumstances of it,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: because she was upset that she was supposed to be
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: on to talk about one thing. This happened, and of
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: course it's breaking news, and you know, she didn't like,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: you know, the news business can be inconvenient to politicians.
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  Speaker 1: I get it, you know that that sort of but
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  Speaker 1: it was, you know, it was just a it's just
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  Speaker 1: one of those. She was always upset that she didn't
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  Speaker 1: get to talk about what she wanted to talk about
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  Speaker 1: in that moment. But boy, since we're there, take me there?
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  Speaker 1: Did he feel pressure to resign? I always got the
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  Speaker 1: sense he didn't want to resign.
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  Speaker 2: I guess she's not running again. I'll be tactful. I'll
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: be tactful. I won't I will the breaking news that
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  Speaker 2: you got that you confronted her with.
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  Speaker 3: When we talk about the butterfly effect, Yeah, there was
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  Speaker 3: a an I allude to it in the book. I
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  Speaker 3: don't address it directly because that member of my family,
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  Speaker 3: and I have men defenses, so I tried very hard
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  Speaker 3: not to do anything that will, you know, harm that
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  Speaker 3: relationship or cause another fissure, if you will. But that
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  Speaker 3: person was on the outside looking in, and the moment
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: they were they got a little bit of daylight, and
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  Speaker 3: we gave them any bit of information they ran and
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  Speaker 3: they was someone they went to college with, was a
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: journalist at the New York Times. They tried to get
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: in front of me or my father announcing that I
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  Speaker 3: would be running for a seat, which I had not
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  Speaker 3: decided yet. I did not know if I wanted to
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: run for office or if I was ready. Part of
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: why I hadn't never run for office to that point
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  Speaker 3: was because I knew who I was.
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  Speaker 2: I was a former songwriter. My work, my work experience
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: started in the music business, and so there's a there is.
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  Speaker 3: A a level of calming down or a mellowing out
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  Speaker 3: that I was not fully prepared to do coming from
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: that lifestyle, which I knew was was required to be
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  Speaker 3: in public office. And so that person says, yes, my
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  Speaker 3: great uncle is retiring and I'm going to run for
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  Speaker 3: his seat, which then turns into.
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  Speaker 2: My preation that you got yeah, which then she confronted.
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  Speaker 3: She was confronted with, but if we are being honest,
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  Speaker 3: which I didn't put in the book because for a
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  Speaker 3: myriad of reasons.
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  Speaker 2: Uh, my father was pressured to retire.
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  Speaker 3: Course he was yeah, uh, And I think I think
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  Speaker 3: the frustrating thing is to the point of the book,
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  Speaker 3: which it was never I shouldn't say it was never
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  Speaker 3: supposed to happen, because it ultimately happened. And I believe
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  Speaker 3: in all the things what's supposed to happen happens. We
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  Speaker 3: talk to my father about retiring ten years prior to this,
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  Speaker 3: because he had a series of strokes in two thousand
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  Speaker 3: and nine minus like small ones. And so my uncle,
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  Speaker 3: my mother, myself and another gentleman who lives in DC
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  Speaker 3: sat down with him and we were like, you know,
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  Speaker 3: you should retire.
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  Speaker 2: Consider writing a book.
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  Speaker 3: My father wouldn't hear it, primarily because I think, when
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  Speaker 3: when you think about like a professional athlete, or even
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  Speaker 3: someone like yourself or Tony Kornhier, who like my life
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  Speaker 3: is wrapped up in this thing that I do, it's.
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  Speaker 1: Your identity, you know. I go back, you know, John,
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  Speaker 1: when I was a kid. I remember the first instance
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  Speaker 1: of something like this happening for me. In the memory
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  Speaker 1: I have is Bear Bryant. Bear Bryan announces he's going
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  Speaker 1: to retire. The guy died before the next football season.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Joe Paterno resigns. He dies before the start of the
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  Speaker 1: next football season. So there had been this. You do
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  Speaker 1: hear this, and I buy it. I think when you're older,
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  Speaker 1: you're afraid that the minute you don't have that reason
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  Speaker 1: to get up in the morning, that it might all end.
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  Speaker 1: So I get it. I understand why coaches hang on.
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  Speaker 1: I understand why journalists hang on. But you know what,
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  Speaker 1: it never gets better. The exit never gets better.
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  Speaker 2: This is true, and I.
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  Speaker 3: Think I would say that, not not guilt, but I
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: was diagnosed with ADHD and being you know, I'm also
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  Speaker 3: on the spectrum diagnosed with that later in life. So
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  Speaker 3: there is the neurotypical way of communicating, or my ability
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: to perceive things, or my awareness of my difference in cognition.
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  Speaker 2: Coming to terms of that.
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  Speaker 3: Are being able to perceive that so that I can
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: act on it and be more try to be more
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: perceptive and more present. Didn't come until one of them
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  Speaker 3: came prior to my father's passing. The autism piece came
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  Speaker 3: only just a year ago or two a year and
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: a half ago, now, right, And so there are things
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  Speaker 3: that I think my father was alive for maybe five
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: years or two years after his retirement, but there was
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: a there was a there was a top piece, a
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: window that I wish that I had more awareness of
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: the kind of mental things that I was grappling with
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: to be able to kind of take that mantle, because
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: there was an attempt to pass it to me, and
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  Speaker 3: I wasn't aware. I wasn't ready for it, if in
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  Speaker 3: no small part because I couldn't perceive it for what
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  Speaker 3: it was in the moment.
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  Speaker 1: So talk about the decision to write this book, because
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure, like, look, you you chose to make some
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  Speaker 1: things public that I'm guessing not every member of your
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  Speaker 1: family wanted public.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, but yeah, yes, sure.
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  Speaker 3: I think that I wouldn't have been the book that
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  Speaker 3: I would feel comfortable with. Uh if I didn't, though,
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  Speaker 3: because in order to there's the perception of the person,
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: as you very well know, being a public person, there
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: is the perception of who you are and what your
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: lived experiences and what your life experiences versus what.
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  Speaker 2: The reality of it is.
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  Speaker 3: So when you hear John Conyers, longest serving Black American
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  Speaker 3: congressman in American history, especially within the black community and
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: then especially within Detroit. There the people automatically conflate privilege
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: with wealth and privilege with money, and that is not
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: my lived experience.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: It's funny, Well that's Washington for you. Right. You should
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: have a conversation with my son, because you know he's
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: he's in college now and and he's starting to get
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: this more and he realizes this. But you know, he
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: was called you know, I grew up you know, pretty
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: working class is probably you know, grew up in apartment
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: buildings and all that stuff. And I had a good life. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: my parents tried their best. And when my son got
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: hit for being a NEPO baby, I'm like, what right?
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  Speaker 1: And and I'm sure and I and I always felt
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: terrible about that, like he doesn't get to be his
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: own person. And so I wonder, this is clearly what
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: frustrates you is that you feel as if so many
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: people just assume they know who you are, who you
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: should be, just because of what your name is.
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  Speaker 3: So I have coined a phrase now or a phrase
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: that I use, and people say, you have a big
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: shoes if I said legacy is not footwear, it's a direction, right,
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: good line, because so many people one the thing we
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: already talk about the perception of who you are. They
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: have this projection onto you of like if they were you,
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: what they would have done and who they would be
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: by now and all these things and then the other
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: pieces of the thing that you're talking about with your
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: with your son.
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  Speaker 2: It's like people don't even give give you the time
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: of day.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: And then it's always the goalpost is always moving, Like
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: you know, even now when I tell people what I've done,
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: there is this there is this doubt or that's not enough,
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: that like, well I've done all these things, well that's
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: not enough, or you only did them because your dad.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: And it's like no.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Matter what you're you get, whatever it is, you get
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: questioned either you should have done more, or well whatever
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: you did, you started on third base.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: So I think and I'm even sensitive to talk about
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: it now because of how would be perceived.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: And I think you just you just.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Come to there's no good answer. You can't and you
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: know what I would tell you, don't talk about it publicly.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: It's not fair, Yeah, but not you just can't because
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: there are people who have it goes to my wife's
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: got this saying everybody's problems are problems for them, And
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: just because somebody else's problems wouldn't be problems in your
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: life doesn't mean they're not problems in their life.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Correct, And yet we have.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: A hard time. I can't tell you I'd love your problems, okay,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and I probably love your problems.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: You know, right, But yeah, I think the experience that
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: I've had as John Connors.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: A third.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Part of it is that I feel a tremendous regardless
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: of the negative things that come with it and.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: The challenges.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: I think I feel a profound sense of responsibility and
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: duty as primarily as a generational bridge, because my father
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: was so much older when he had me, feel a profound,
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: profound sense of duty and responsibility to make sure that
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: the generation, my generation and those coming behind me understand
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: that the things that they were born with, the rights
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: and opportunities that they were born with, were not always
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: that way, and that we have a we have an
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: obligation to the people that came before us to not
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: only maintain but to further their work and to further
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: the freedoms that we have for young people that we
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: gained for young people.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: What did you learn about your dad in this product?
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: In the problem striding this book.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I learned so much. I mean, primarily, I think.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: To bring to mention sports and thinking about Cornheiser, there's
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: a there's a there's a gentleman playing basketball right now
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: who's the all time leading scorer that I think is amazing.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I do not. I think he's the greatest basketball.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Player of all time, primarily because like, if you are
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: that person, the.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: World will tell you.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: You don't have to tell us, right, And so I
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: think that to make the analogy, my father was someone
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: who didn't have to tell you how great he was.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: He would tell me stories, right, And what I learned
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: in this process is that he's exactly who he thought
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: he was, right, Like, when I'm hearing I think it's
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: in the book the LBJ story about getting Air Force one.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: He told told me this story off the cuff, right.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: And mind you, I'm an adult now when he's telling
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: me the story and I'm Clinton's call the house at
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: two in the morning, all the things.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Have happened, right, So I know that he's important.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: You've lived this life, you're aware. Yeah, my dad hangs
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: out with presidents.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: That's what happens.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but this point in time, remember this point in
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: time when he's talking to LBJ, it's still civil rights movement.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: He's not a senior member of Congress to be able
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: to call the president and say, hey, I need Air
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: Force one. But my dad's first chief of staff campaign
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: manager for his for his first campaign is telling me
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: this story independent of my dad, and I'm like, oh, wait,
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: he's not this This is just like, this is an
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: everyday thing, is just what I do. And to know
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: to be privy to a person that was was able
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: to move through the world like that and also not
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: be boastful about it, to me, it's like, oh yeah,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: this this is the model.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: And to know to learn all these things about him that, like,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: it was just mind blowing. It's mind blowing.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: The remarkable thing to me when I think about our
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: politics today and our polarization of today, is we were
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: really polarized in the nineteen fifties and sixties more so
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: arguably than we are today, and yet there was optimism
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: where we struggle to find optimism today. Right, There was
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: also and this is something I think, what did you
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: learn learn about what I would call incrementalism. Like there
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: was always like Okay, let's win this fight and we'll
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: come back and fight another day, when others in the
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: movement would say, let's get it all now. And to me,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: this is something progressive. Today's progressives are having to relearn
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: a story on how to win a long term political
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: struggle versus and realizing that you're not going to win
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: every short term fight. But how do you make every
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: short term fight an attempt to move the needle long term?
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Uh So this is something I can think about.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Actually, I was just thinking about this other day, the
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: advent of Twitter and how I think that is added
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: to the polarization not just.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Of the uh the electorate, but also the elected officials.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: But I think incrementalism is that's the way of that's
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: everyone's way of life.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: You don't go to the gym. You don't go to
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: the gym on the first day and walk.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: Out with washboard abs or able to you don't walk
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: into the gym.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: When I started, I could only I.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Thought, if I inject something in my stomach, now I
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: get it within a couple of weeks.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, that's true. True.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, we are we are, We're We're still going
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: to sell that dream regardless of whether it's true.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Sorry.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: I think the polarization piece, and this is also part
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: of why I'm getting so engaged in politics. The way
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: I am these days is that I was raised in
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: a time where that wasn't the case. It was becoming
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: that way, right.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I remember.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: I remember riding in a car with my mom. Was
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: now I'm dating my even myself where they still have
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: bench seats in the front in the front front seat.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Nothing like sitting in that middle seat right where you
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: had to put the arm rests back up right the armist.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Had come down. So I'm sitting in the middle.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: We're in DC, We're on Constitution AB, I'm looking directly
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: at the Capitol building, and.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I see I see my between my mom and my
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: dad listen to MPR.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: I forget what was on NPR, but it triggered my
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: father to say, it wasn't always like that. It wasn't
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: like this until New Gingers became Speaker of the House,
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: where everything became a zero some game.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Where it was my way or the highway.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: And I say that to say, to fully address your question,
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: I think that the reason why my generation and younger
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: feel that everything has to be won all at once.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Is because number one, I think corporate involvement in politics
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: and Democrats largely failing to deliver on promises. Although they
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: do great some great things, they largely to deliver on
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: their promises.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: But then the second thing, to the point I made
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: about always having these rights, They've always had these things,
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: so they don't know that it was one over time
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: because they were born with it. And so I think, again,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: this is why I feel such a sense of urgency
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: to be involved, because I'm one of like I don't
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: I can't think of another person, but I'm one of
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: the only people that I know of that is the
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: son of a civil rights leader that is also a
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: millennial that got it firsthand.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I didn't read about it. It wasn't a story.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: It wasn't it wasn't right because you're most of your
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: peers are two generations removed.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, so I I I've heard about this firsthand one
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: to one. My dad didn't say doctor King said, Martin
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: called him. I called Jesse Jackson, Uncle Jesse. So I'm
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: getting these stories from the actual guys. So to me
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: it feels like, oh, well, this is this is what
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: we're supposed to do it. It happens over time. Whereas again
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: not to labor the point, but my peers they that's all,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: that's what they know.
• 22:03
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• 24:55
  Speaker 1: would you say your relationships with your in your head?
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: The relationship with your father?
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: Now, I got more questions than I got answered. Now
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: after this book, I mean, I would love to uh,
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: I would love to know more than anything, how how
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: he had the ability to forge a path and move
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: forward on issues that were so far ahead of their
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: time in the In the it was there's a there's
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: a there's a newsletter. You know, they have these things
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: where they put something in the congressional record, and my
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: dad did it via like a newsletter that he circulated
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: to all the members of the House. And he was
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: talking about the connection between poverty and crime, right, and
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: that no, that wasn't a thing. That wasn't a thing
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: back in the seventies that people often correlated, right, And
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: and so I would love to just know and have
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: and to speak with him about how are you able
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: to get out in front of these issues so early
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: and then maintain the effort and the stamina to continue
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: to fight for them, whether that's Medicare for All, whether
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: that's reparations, whether that's the MLK holiday, or even you know,
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: one of his lesser known piece of legislation, the Humphrey
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Hawks Full Employment Bill. These are things that like I
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: just I want to know, and sure we could we
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: could disteal it down. Well, that's what was right, and
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: that's what you do, but like, that's not what everybody does,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: so why did you do it?
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: So most a lot of so many politicians, we know them,
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: we've been in proximity to them.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: They sell out, So why didn't you? That's what I
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: would like to know.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: My dad died when I was sixteen, and the list
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: of questions I have for him. I'm fifty three now,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: like kids just like you know, and you know, I'm
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: now flying blind for the first time, meaning my son
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: is now older than I was, So suddenly I have
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: a I have a relationship with him that I can't emulate,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: meaning I can't look back on how did my father night?
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: And we were fine up until and it's always been
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: in the amount of questions. And it's that's why I
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: asked that question when I asked about what's your relationship
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: with him?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Grateful?
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: It is like I'm still you know, I miss him.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: That's my relationship with him. I miss them, you know.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: So I would add I would say that I and
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: what you said about you and your son triggered this
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: in my mind, is that I would say that I'm grateful.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: I think that I had having an.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Older father was truly a blessing because I had him.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: He was young enough, like sixty one is not young,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: but he was young enough to. He was young enough
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: to by the time I turned you know, five and six,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: he was still able to throw a ball, throw football
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: with me. I played baseball with him.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: You have those memories, Yeah, but.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: My younger brother doesn't have that because my to old
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: by that time. All right, brother, there's five years or anything.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Me right. I would say that above all.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: Things he taught me through what he emulated is that
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: it's okay to admit it wrong, it's okay to forgive
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: people like you, and so you don't.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Have to be I think in life you get a
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: lot of wisdom. The older you get no matter what,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: so you got you know, the upside of having an
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: older father said he lived more life.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the advice is passing down. Hey, he's he's
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: been around the block, not just once or twice, you know, right,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: But it's sort of like, look, just trust me. Yeah right,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: We're all this way with our kids when they go
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: off to college. You know, the longer they go to college,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: the more they're the more they discover how right their
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: parents were right. And it's but it you know, you
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: have to make experience these things yourself many times, but
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: you really did have a luxury and an older father
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: in that sense.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think the just the lessons that the
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: lessons that he taught me stick with me.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: And it's also kind of I'm grateful also to the
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: group of friends that I had that I have, because
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: sometimes I would feel displaced because there's a level of
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: emotional maturity you get by being raised by an older
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: person that I.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Feel like you were always treated more like an adult,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: get a bit more adult settings.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I always had yees, so I was correct.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: So I think that like when I once I found
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: finally found my footing, especially in college, and I was
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: like I would say that I was a social butterfly
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: for sure, but finding a group that truly fit everything,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: I didn't have to explain myself or I didn't have
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: to say less to fit in that was that was amazing.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: And it was because of the things that I learned
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: from him to be able to find the intellectually intellectual
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: friendships that match where I was.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: What kind of politician do you want people to see
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: you as? And do you do you want folks to
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: compare you to your father.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: So I was a philosophy major in college and Macchiavelli
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: talks about not following in the footsteps of a great man.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Not to contradict my earliest statement.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: But I think I don't know that I would compare
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: me to my father because we're operating and two extremely
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: different times, although a lot of the similar issues.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Directly, I know, sometimes we're so far away from the
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: movement it feels very familiar.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: It's directionally the same, right, But I think that the
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: mechanism by which we organize.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: And we bring people together maybe a little different.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: But we are arguing about who's an American and what's America?
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: You know, what, how are we? You know?
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: Con I would say in that in that regard, then
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: you're sure you could compare me to my father, And
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: in so far as I would like for all of
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: Americans to understand, uh and beyond and have an honest
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: conversation about who and what built this country, right, I
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: think that, like it's a controversial thing on Instagram right
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: now about the artistship who You're saying that immigrants built
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: this country and that's just not true.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Black American slaves built this country.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: Now immigrants have contributed largely immeasurably to the fabric of
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: this nation. We can't whether it's the Irish immigrants, Italian immigrants, right,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: we can't. We cannot you know, African American African immigrants.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: We can't deny that. But the foundations, the foundational building
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: out of this country. This country would not have had
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: the economic advantage it has had without that of slavery.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: And so I would say that there are ways in
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: which you can compare me to my father, but I
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: would prefer folks not to although I know that that
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: is inevitable. The type of politician I want to be,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: I don't know this last thing I'll say. I don't
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: mean to be long winded. The type of politician I
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: want to be.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: We're doing a podcast, brother is why is.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: One that brings people together? What I learned from my
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: father's we build coalitions. We bring a large group of
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: people who have shared interests, similar interest right, we start
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: with where we where where we agree. We don't focus
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: on where we disagreement, because where we find agreement is.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: How we build power collectively.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: And once we find that we can work together on
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: the things we agree about, then we can come together
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: and hash out strategically how we work through our disagreements.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: And that's the type of politician I want to be.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: I think that's what's missing from our government across all
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: levels around the country.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: One more personal question then I want to talk to
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: little politics of Michigan Detroit, be more forward looking, talk
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: about more and that is are you glad you share
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: your father's name or do you wish you didn't?
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm so glad I share my father.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Because I think it's like I just think this is
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: I've always wondered. You know, it's both a It's both
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: great and a burden at the same time.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I got all no listen any.
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: Whether you're whatever, your privileges are right, I know, Ny,
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: you have a responsibility to utilize them. I think this
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: is my personal feeling like you have a responsibility to
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: leverage them and utilize them for good. If my name
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: were Michael Conyers, the doors that have opened for me
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: would not be the same full sun. I would not
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: have been able to introduce or help the folks that
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: I've been able to help an aid and support. If
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: I don't think and maybe it would be different, my
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: life will look fundamentally different.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: But if my name is we're Michael Conyers, but.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: As John Conyers, that they're when people automatically say, wait
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: with John conyer's your father or your grandfather. The ability
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: to make connections, the ability to introduce folks and help people.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: So you see it all as asset.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: It's an asset whatever, whatever the downside is, I'm okay
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: with it because the upside I can't, I literally cannot
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: quantify it.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: So I'm a good with it and God will fourth.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's what I just have always that I've
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: always wondered, is there a like, you know, at this
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: convert like I said, al Gore bearing his name with
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: his right he was al Gord junior, right, and there
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: was an expectation mlka the third right, And I've always
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: you know, is is it a it's both a privilege
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: and a burden role wrapped up in won perhaps right,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: depending on who you're dealing with. And that's what I've Yeah, well,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: there's no reason you ever had a conversation with any
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: of the other namesakes.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: Uh No, I'm not one that was substantive or substantial
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: about like that issue.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not about that issue. No, I don't. I don't
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: know that.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: I also, oh, you know what, I've talked to Harroll
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: Ford Junior about it, and I've talked to Dennis Archer Junior,
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Dennis Archer Jr. Speaking of local politics, the former mayor.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: I've talked to him about it, and we both see
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: it as a positive. I think that he's I mean not.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: I think he has focused strictly on solely on business right,
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: and he's you know, he's commended me on me on
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: stepping into the political scene as a political operative with
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: my name being what it is.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about Detroit. You called Detroit, you position
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: an unfinished business.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Tell me, you know, I've lived a bunch of I've
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: lived in five different places.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: I've lived in DC, I've lived in Atlanta, I've lived
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: in obviously Michigan, in New York as well as Los Angeles, California.
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: But Michigan, I think is at an inflection point. Detroit specifically,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: we have new leadership in our city. We are going
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: to have new leadership in the Governor's mansion, and right
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: now it is critical for folks that have stayed in
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: Michigan and Detroit, Southeastern Michigan specifically, who have a wealth
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: of resources some of which have already kind of been.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Taken over to some extent.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: Is important that we have people that are going to
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: fight on behalf of those folks and make sure they
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: have a place in a city that they've helped propped
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: up when folks did not want to be here or
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: didn't see it as a wise investment.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the unfinished business.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I saw it comparative of Detroit
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: and Saint Louis and how Detroit's turning a corner and
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Saint Louis is stuck, and it's it's that's good news, right,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, fifteen years ago, it was we
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: were still in the what's it going to take to
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: turn Detroit around? What's it going to take to turn
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: de Trade around? Do you credit dug In with this?
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I can't. You can't discredit Dugion at all.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: Now. The fact of the matter, some of the framework,
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: and no one likes to talk about this, and I
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: don't mean to put him in this conversation, but some
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: of the framework that Dugan was able to work off
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: of was laid by Kwame Kokatrick. Some of the money,
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: some of the money that was used a federal funding
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: that was used was from you know, stuff that his
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: mother was able to bring back. But overall, I mean
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: the jumping off point and the right it's one thing
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: to get in the door, it's another thing to stay there. Right,
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: So you cannot you cannot discredit dug In for the
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: longevity and the long term success that he's had and
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: steering the direction of the city of Detroit, which has
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: it's the growth has been tremendous.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: What's been you know, watching it sort of Detroit sort
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: of turn around? Is it one thing or is it
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: just a reminder It sometimes just takes a series of
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: little things in time. Well, what would you say the
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: recipe turned out to be?
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: So my father as a saying again, address it in
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: the book, little by little, day by day, Right, it's
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: how you achieved success, and everything's connected. I would say
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: that in the case of Detroit, we didn't have any
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: other from accept patients, right, it wasn't going to happen
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: over now, primarily because folks weren't interested in investing here.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: So it took someone like a Dan Gilbert, someone you know,
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: a family like the Illages making consider considerable investment, a
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: strategic investment.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: And you know folks being patient with the mayor.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: The mayor again, Mike Duggan is a junior, So Mike
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: Duggan leveraging his name and his relationships of his father
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: to be able to attract people and businesses to come
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: do business here.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: So we didn't have a choice.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: And I think we're still as someone who's lived in
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: a number of major cities, we still have a ways
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: to go.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: And I think we can.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: We can get to the place to get back to
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: the top of you know, American cities, but we have
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: a long way to go, and the work, the foundation
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: has been laid and the work continues.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: You know, you brought up a couple of them. You
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: noted Dan Gilbert in the Illages, and it is every
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: community turnaround story is usually you know, a piece of
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: it is basically the local rich people finally decided to invest.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: And I say this no disrespect, you know whatever. The
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: people that had you know, made their money in that
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: city or made their money in businesses in that city,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: and the cities that are struggling usually don't have people
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: willing to invest. You know, what does it take to
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: get to get folks like the Dan Gilberts and the
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Illages to invest. What why did they do it? And
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: what is it scalable? You know, is there lessons here
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: for those in Saint Louis that want to see want
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: to try to create a Detroit like story.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Well, I think with Dan and in the Illage family,
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: they're they're from here, right, Dan's Damn, Dan's from here.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: He's so that matters. Yeah, I think I think that matters.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: I think it also takes vision. Coming to the earlier conversation,
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: I think some folks don't have a vision beyond the
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: money they make. They have a vision to be wealthy
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: and outside of that, like, that's not their problem.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Everything else is not their problem.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: And I think I don't think I can speak to
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: Dan specifically and his vision for Bedrock and his vision
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: for the city of Detroit.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: He believes in it.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: He believes in what it can be in the same
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: way that I've always believed in what it can be
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: when when I went to school at Morehouse, I was
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: always perplexed not by its success, but more so why
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: this little city or this big city in.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: This landlocked city.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: On top of that, right has all of these resources,
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: but Detroit is an international city and we don't.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: We're not able to maximize and leverage it now.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: Of course, as I've grown and I've matured, I understand
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: the machanitions of why it is and and the forces,
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: the outward forces, external forces working against its success. But
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: I do I think you have to have a vision
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: for what a thing can be, what a place can be,
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: before you make that investment. And there are a lot
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: of places I think that don't have wealthy people that
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: have a vision for what a place can be.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: And or even want to be a part of that.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's interesting. I Detroit was Silicon Valley
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: before Silicon Valley. I was like to tell people that
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Detroit in the forties and fifties and sixties was a
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: magnet for young people who wanted to be in the
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: auto industry or wanted to be in the cutting edge
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: of technology. All the cool stuff was happening in Detroit.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: And then for a variety of reasons, everything atrophied, and
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: that in the auto business, and you know, we all
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: know the story. Suddenly the American carmakers were no longer king,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: and you know, there's a there's a lot of ways
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: that this went down. But I look at it, and
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: I think, boy is ere a. What are the red
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: flags that happened with the auto industry in Detroit that
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: could happen to San Francisco, in Silicon Valley in California
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: if they're not careful, I.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: Can I mean, I think it's the American story which
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: we're seeing with the current administration, and that is and
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: it's I wouldn't say it's human story. I think it
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: is uniquely American and that we we don't have to
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: be proactive because of our because of our power and
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: our enormous wealth, we don't have to be proactive.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: We can be we have we can afford to be reactive.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: We can buy our way in if we miss out
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: on a technological.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: And and that's not and that is not the you're
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: seeing it with the big three automakers.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: That's not the case, right.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: You're seeing that like China is eating our lunch with
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: not only the AI race, the I just.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Saw Ford may do a deal with China's largest TV maker.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: You're like, okay, and so that coming and I talk.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: About and I talk about this part of what part
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: of what I discussed politically is I think climate change
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: is real. I don't know what anyone of those things.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: I believe the climate change is real because I've never
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: This is the first real winter we're having a Michigan and.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: God knows how long I say that.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: I say that to say that when the car became
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: what it became, and the infrastructure was built, The infrastructure
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: was built because the United States government subsidized largely the
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: building of roads. If the infrastructure to make roads, I
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: mean to make all the automobile.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: We don't sell as many cars if the country doesn't
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: build highways.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Right subsequently, if we were, if we're going to create
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: tax incentives, what good is the tax incentive if we're
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: not subsidizing people to be able to the infrastructure to
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: or you should get a tax credit on putting an
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: EV charger in your home, should get a subsidizing for
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: converting your gas station to an EV gas station, all
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: those things. What good is that tax credit to buy
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: the car if there's no incentive for any industry to
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: convert to that.
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  Speaker 1: is something you should really think about, especially if you've
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: got a growing family. What today's capitalists don't realize is
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: that this is the federal government worked hand in hand
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: with industry, whether it was to build railroad tracks in
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century, or the freeway or the interstate
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: highway system. I know what I thought. This was the
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: great failure of the Biden Infrastructure Bill. All it did
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: was shovel cash out the door. It didn't take the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: EV stations. It appropriated all this money to build EV
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: essentially powering stations, but it was waiting for some private
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: entity to take the tax credit and do it rather
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: than just going in doing it and building the infrastructure
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: it is. You know, This is I think explains why
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: there's this whole movement in the Democratic Party of Hey,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: maybe the Democrats that learn how to build stuff again.
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, we abandoned West Virginia. But that's a whole
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: other conversation for another time. But I mean I agree
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: with you, and I just think that now I don't
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: agree with the government subsidizing corporations are propping them up, right,
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: No one should be too big to fail. But when
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: you talk about national security, the interest of America still
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: being a world leader in all things, then I listen.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: Do I want BP to or Exonic Petroleum to have
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: a competitive advantage, Not particularly, But if it means that
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: they're going to drill less oil and prioritize investing in evy,
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: in solar technology and energy efficient technology.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Then we got to subsidize them, guys. We can, we can,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: we can, We can.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: Subsidize them and then bring them in front of the
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: Senate and UH regulation committees and banking committees to break
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: up the anti trust piece later, but first, let's just
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: get let's get the thing done right and.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: So looking like a pragmatist. There's not enough of pragmatism
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: in American politics today.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: I listen I as a guy who used to work
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: in finance, and you gotta hit singles and doubles. Everything
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: can't be a home run, incremental into steps.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Let me wrap up the political side a minute. So
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: are you running for something this year or not?
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: I'm running for a state Senate in Michigan's third district.
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: It's an open seat, got it? State Legislator Stephanie Chang Center.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: Stephanie Chang is formerly there. Part of why I'm running,
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: I think, well, I shouldn't say part of why this is.
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: This is is added.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: To why I'm running. As I was a I was
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: at one.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: Of her community meetings and there was an issue of
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: corruption in a particular city that's within her district, and
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: she said that she doesn't have the power to do
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: anything about her what was happening.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: And to me, this is my issue with.
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: Politics in general currently, is that not enough people understand
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: the totality and full weight of the role in what
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: they can or cannot do.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Like the federal government.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: Someone that's on the judiciary committee in the state legislature
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: has they has a subpoena power to investigate.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: And it's not just about the bully pulpit. My challenge
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: in my issue.
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: With politics today is that everyone, everyone wants to be
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: an activist as a politician. Politicians politics and legislating passing
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: laws is not about activism.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: It's not about it.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: You can be it, you can have you may have
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: been an activist, but this is this is why diplomacy matters.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: This is why I was like this, like wisdom from
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: your father.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, right, coming to DC and hearing you know,
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: Bob Goodlot or even someone like a Jim Jordan stop
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: me and the elevator with my father's there and say hey,
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: I don't know, or Jim Sinson Brenner name a name
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: that people haven't heard in a while, having them stop
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: me and my father and say, hey, I don't always
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: agree with your dad, but I need you to know.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: I want to let you know your dad's a great man.
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: Whenever, whenever the Democrats are in the majority, we don't agree,
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: but he lets me say my piece and we're respectful
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: to one another and vice versa. So I make sure
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: that when we were in the majority, I may not
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: do it for everyone, but your father, for sure, he's
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: someone that I want to hear out because I know
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: is coming from an earnest place.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: That's what we need back in politics.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: But every every every and everyone says that, but their
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: behavior is not indicative of that wanting them, you know.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: I mean the rewards. You know, this goes to the
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: whole political theatrics. And you know my biggest concern with Congress.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: And I'm curious. You could have jumped into a congressional
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: seat and you chose not to. You chose the state House.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: Why oh, because there's no Congressation in the place to
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: make the fix right now. I would have run if
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: I thought it was a place to make the fix.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: But so, for example, one of the things that I
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: am keenly focused on is that Michigan the university, and
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: I'm a policy walk. I get it honest for my dad,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: reading and reading about what's going on, and I'll be brief.
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: The University of Michigan put out a white paper on
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: the economic growth outlook for twenty twenty seven for the
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: state of Michigan, and they also put out one for
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: the City of Detroit. Because of the retirement of boomers,
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: we're going to loud the last few years of boomers.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: We're going to lose folks in the workforce, so we're
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: going to have the tax revenue is going to decline
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: on down the line from a state standpoint, from a
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: state from the state's ability or a standpoint of what
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: our state can do with the Department of Education, declassifying
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: because we need to attract talent. Declassifying architecture, occupation with therapy,
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: nursing as professional degrees one thing that we can do
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: to attract and retain talent, because that's the one of
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: the challenges that our current governor was able never able
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: to overcome. Instead of issuing bonds that fixed roads and
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: build bridges and fixed infrastructure, let's issue bonds to offset
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: that twenty nine five hundred dollars at all, we know
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: students are going to lose and attract talent. Right, you
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: can't do that on the federal level. I can do
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: that on the state level. I can work with because
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: that's an issue that is an issue that both Republicans
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: and Democrats on the state level can get on board
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: with to attract and retain talent.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: And it's not an expenditure.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: We're not spending, We're not we're gonna gain tax revenue.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: I remember an.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Early interview I did with Dugan back when he was
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: mayor and him going, I need people to move to Detroit,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: and it sounds like what you're saying. With the support,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: you're gonna have boomers retiring. And there's basically there is
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: not a population gain. And I know that. You know,
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Detroit raised its hand first for refugees, right, raised itsai first,
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: because these northern cities are just losing a lot of
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of people to the south.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: We know this. Yeah, so and so to what I
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: just said.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: That is why I look at the state level as
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: the best place to make an impact. I think that again,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: legacy is in't footwear is direction. My father worked on
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: the federal level, great as he may be, he never
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: did anything on the state level. And so I can
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: make an impact and chart a unique course on the
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: state level. That's not to say I'll never make it
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: to the federal level or never look that way, but
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: I think right now to make an outsize impact and
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: to really leave an imprint on how this state grows.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: I think the best place to do it is, you know,
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: in Lansing.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: This is about us. I tell anybody, I said, if
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: you're running a political you're putting a national news organization,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: and you want to cover campaign twenty twenty six, I'd
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: send a full time person to the state of Michigan.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: Between that Democratic Senate primary the three way governor's race.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: That sort of all the national issues are right there
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: in the state of Michigan.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: You don't.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: You can cover every issue under the sun. Democratic in fighting,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: Republican in fighting, swing, voter polarization, it's all here.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: I thought it was bad on our side of the aisle,
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: but listen, I've been hearing from folks. The Republicans in
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: the state of Michigan are a disarray. Yeah, and completely
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: other disarray.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: So look, obviously you're running as a Democrat, right, so
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: the governor's race, I mean, is doug and a spoiler.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: For the Democrats.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: Listen, folks, don't I don't know. You may know, but
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: most people don't know. Like it's alluring and he can
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: raise the money, I'm sure, but we have straight ticket voting.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: There's the reason why he's able to go.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: I had this conversation with him. This is a huge issue.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: I think I don't.
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: I will say at box, I will say the one
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: if there's one person that can do it, based on
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: what he did in twenty twenty eleven or is it
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, right, the one person that.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Can do Yeah, you want to write it, yeah, I
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: much respect.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's one person that can get folks to
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: change their voting habits.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: The last person I'm going to.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Doubt is Michael Duggant Junior as the last person I'm
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: going to die. But I think that I know that
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: my mom votes straight ticket. I don't vote straight ticket
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: in the general never, I never have, but in the
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: primary because that is what the habit is. I am
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: curious to see what happens in this primary and whether
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: you can get people to change their voting habits.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: I look at this race, and look, you know, without
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: getting into positions, these are three very qualified people on paper.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Whatever you think of them.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: Do you agree with that, who's the who's the republic
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: who's the Republican?
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: Your well, I mean I say that. Look what I
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: say is he's got the resume that fits John James,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: meaning like like the average voter would say, oh, okay,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: he served in Congress, she served as secretary State, he
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: served as mayor. You would say, sure, that's what I mean.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: So let me then let me get specific. Do you
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: think you could work with John James's governor?
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean our families, Our families go way back,
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: and so John and I have a relationship. Yeah, I
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: have no I have no doubt that I could work
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: with John or anyone else, you know, as as a
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: state legislator.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: But I assume you, I assume you support Benson as
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: a as a Democrat, or should I not make an assumption?
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: You know, I support I support Jocelyn Johnson. Jocelyn and
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: I have had conversations. I support her. I think I
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: think she could do a great job.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: But it sounds like you you know all three of
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: these candidates pretty well.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: I have thought. I have thoughts about Mike choosing to
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: run independent, although I understand it, I.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: Also you wish he were running as a Democrat.
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: Okay, primarily because like historically independent spoiler for Democrats, not
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: the other way around, right right, And so I just think.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: Well, especially where his base is. I mean, you see
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: the numbers. It's just you know, I know what he
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: says on the trail. Oh, I'm getting you know, equal
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: from both sides. You're like, every vote you get out
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: of Detroit is a too vote gain for the Republicans.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's it's concerning, but we'll see what happens.
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: I think again, this is why my policies. You know,
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: my father's legacy as a politician, one of the things
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: that he never got to cover, and he's not thought
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: of for this, although it was very much a part
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: of his mission was economic justice.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: My issues and my concerns are related to economic justice.
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: And so if I, as a Democrat who has a
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: primary focus on the ability of economic freedom and mobility
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: to create opportunities for black folks, other peoples of color,
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: and poor disenfranchised folks, if I can work, I know
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: that those things are things that Republicans care about, and
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: so that I know that I'll be able to talk
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: to them and communicate to them about things of that nature.
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: So I'm not I'm not worried about a Republican being
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: in the governor's mansion. I'm more concerned about Republicans taking
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: over the state House or maintaining their lead in the
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: state House, and they're maintaining their lead in the in
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: the state Senate.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: You have a strong opinion about the Democratic Senate primary,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: the US Center primary, or is this since you're running
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: your own primary, you're staying out of it.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: I don't have a strong opinion about it. I think, yeah,
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: I don't. I don't have a strong opinion about it.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: May the best person win, I think that I will.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: I will tell you this.
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: Mallary mc morrow is someone I consider a friend. Although
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: I've talked to her about this since it came out.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: She gets the Medicare for All issue wrong. But other
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: than that, I think, you know.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: She get wrong about it.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: So she she says that Medicare for All isn't a
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: single payer insurance thing, and it absolutely is, and she
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: and so that that's it. I just want to clarify
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: that with her because obviously, you know, having a front
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: row seat to the Medicare for All and being introduced,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: I understand understand what it's about. And I just you know,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: she and I had a conversation and I talk with
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: the chief of staff or campaign manager about what it
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: is and so yeah, that's that's really it. But I
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: mean Mallory, Mallory has been a champion for the issues
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: for a very long time.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: She she strikes me as literally goldilocks here, right. It's
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: like some people are going to think once to establishment,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: somebody's gonna think once too progressive. Here she is sitting
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: somewhere in between those two. So I don't know whether
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: that's good or bad in this case. This is what
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: we're the electorate. It's going to tell us.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: I think I think the correct the elector is going
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: to tell us, and I think it's going to it's
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: going to come down to people make a decisions based
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: on that is one two establishment is one two progressive.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, Mallard is a great person.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Let me get you out of here. On your previous
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: life the music business. How much is AI going to
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: change the music business and is it going to be
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: even recognizable when it's all done.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know that. I don't know that.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: AI can capture the human condition or the human experience.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: I would expect to hear you say that.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: I always say I have faith in our species that
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: we're not going to allow ourselves to be replace whatever
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: that means, you know.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: But I think it takes Here's the thing you you
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: asked me a question or you made a savement earlier
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: about incrementalism. Part of incrementalism and part of it of
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: folks engaging with that is understanding that part of life
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: is doing I realized to curse on here. No, you
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: don't curse, go for it. I you know it's it's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: doing the fucking work right, being actually invested in the processes.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: There are processes that are in place within this country
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: that like you can't get around. I understand that they're frustrating,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: and I'm not saying that they shouldn't be different, but
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: if you want them to be different, you have to participate.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: And so what I would say is to answer your
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: question more fully, more holistically, is that, whether it's AI
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: or whether it's politics, if you don't want things to
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: be the way they are, then you have to participate
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: and fight for the thing until it is the way
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: you would like it to be. I don't think that
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: AI can capture the anguish of what it's like to
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: answer the phone and find out one of your best
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: friends has died by suicide. I don't think AI can
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: capture the anguish of being the eldest son of John
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: Conyers and going to discover his body and having to
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: call his wife and his brother and his son.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: Right. I don't think AI can capture that.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: I may AI may be able to, may be able
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: to write a love song that is nice and catchy,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: but I don't think it can capture the inner workings
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: of what you feel, the complexity of what you feel,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: the anguish of loving someone and wanting to be with
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: someone but knowing that this is not the right person
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: for you.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: I don't think it can be the metaphor you're making
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: me think of it sort of like you can buy
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: a frozen dinner and you'll leave. Yeah, But boy, when
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: mom or dad makes a home cooked meal, there's something
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: about it that's a hell of a lot better. You
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: know whatever. That the extra ingredient is humanity, right, you know,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: the species can How hard is it to make a
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: living as a middle class musician these days? Harder than ever?
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: Well I'm not in it anymore, but I can tell
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: you when I wasn't, it was very difficult.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: It's difficult to get into sessions.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: Because all people see are the stars, right, And you know,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: there's I just saw this movie about song Sung Blue.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: It's about Neil Diamond, but it's not about Neil Diamond, right,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: It's about people that populate every city in America, which
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: is these people that will sing at bars, that do
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: live music that you know, it's a full time job
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: for them, but they're not making millions. That's why I
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: land the bills, you know.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: That's that's why I left.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: That's actually why my dad left the music business is because,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: like he quickly realized, I did not. I wish I
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: realized it as quickly as him, but he quickly realized
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: what it would take to just get by. And I
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: don't not thrive, but just to get by. And I
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: think not enough people. It's a very tough life. And
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: it's and it's one of those things where people try
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: to take advantage of you for what you don't know,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: even though you're contributing and making them millions.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: It's a tough life. I wish more people respected it.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: The again, the emotions and the pain that come with
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: being a songwriter to be able to give you a hit.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like Detroit can be this hub of
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: the music industry again.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: I don't know that it can be that because the
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: infrastructure is not here. I think what Detroit can be
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: is is the hub of something new Detroit. And I
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: tell people this, Detroit is not an importer of culture.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: We have never imported culture. We export.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, you've created culture.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: Detroit creates culture.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: And so I think, whatever whatever the next thing is
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: going to be, it'll it'll come from Detroit.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: And you know, we shall see with that, with that ultimately.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Become well, when the Pistons are in the NBA Finals,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll get some new bad boys.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: We're first in the East.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: I have to say, I think it's a year too soon.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: But hey, you know, I.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: No, Y honest, no, y honest. And I love Giannis,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: I think, but.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: Too distracting, huh. I think are building something.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: He fundamentally changes the way the what we do. Yeah,
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know that, Yiannis does. I come from the
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: era of the boy. I watched the Bulls, I watched
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: the Lakers, both both Kobe iterations.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: I don't like personally.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: I can appreciate greatness, but I don't like players that
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: don't do one thing well. Giannas doesn't do one thing well.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: Joannis requires you play a certain type of play a
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: certain type of game. Right if the game slows down,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: If the game slows down, what can I rely on
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: Giannis to do? I don't, I don't. I don't like that.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to shooting free throws and you
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: probably don't want him shooting threes.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: He can, he can.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: He doesn't have it back to the basket game though,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: really right, so like, what is you gonna do?
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: So I personally don't want him on my team, although
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: I hope that he lands where he would like to land.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: All I say is I got you know, I got
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: a cousin grip in Monroe. So I've always had to
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: follow Detroit sports a little bit. H This is about
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: the best run that you guys have had in a while. Like,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: so everybody's competitive.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Maybe you know, I'm surprised, listen, I was. I was with.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: I was with the vice chairman of the business not
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: too long ago, and that we were talking about that,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: and he was.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: To him at mcna Island. He's that ownership group of
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: the Pistons.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah amazing, Yeah, he's amazing. But he was even he's surprised.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: He didn't think it would be this year.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: So right, it's quick. But you know, hey, the East
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: is open. It is wide open.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: How about the Celtics, By the way, I didn't think
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: I mean listen, I'm a JB. I should people watch
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: your podcast. I should listen to your podcast. I shouldn't
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: say this, but I personally preferred JB's style of play
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: over Tatum.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, I like to I know, I I know what
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: you mean by Tatum him, but yeah, I mean, poor
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: Jason Tatum. There's a part of it feel sorry like
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: he's I don't think he gets the do he deserves.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: Why is that? Why do you think that? Why do
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: you feel that way?
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: Because look, I think he's because in a weird way,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: it's like when he's great, it's like, well, yeah, he
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: was supposed.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: To be great.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: That's all. I mean. It's there's something. Look, I think
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: Lebron deals with this a little bit. I think we
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: all hold Lebron to this absurd standard. I look back
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: and I think it's amazing how well Lebron has handled
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: all of it. I mean, you're told at fifteen you're
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: the king, and you kind of live up to expectations
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: that were put on you as a fifteen year old Okay,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: we can debate, well, he's got four titles. It's come on,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: like the guy was you know, I remember a guy
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: named Todd Marinovitch given the same treatment on the Sports
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Illustrated Football player. That's great. You know, his father raised
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: him to be this perfect quarterback and he completely imploded,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: you know, so you know, cause the expect are gargibli
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: because he couldn't handle the pressure, right, And here's a
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: fifteen year old kid who got the same any and
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: he handled it. And I'm sorry whatever. You know what
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: Lebron's scandal is there? Right? The Lebron scandals are, Oh
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: nobody likes his take on this political thing or that
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: political thing. You know, there's no scandal scandal with him.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not. Absolutely.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: We could argue that Michael Jordan has more scandal than
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: Lebron James.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: So I know I'm with you there.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: My my critiques of Lebron James are only related to basketball.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: They are not related to him as a person. I
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: just don't I don't think he's the greatest. I would
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: put him at number two, number three, but I just think,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: What, I'm not planning to run for the mayor to
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: become mayor of v Slansing. But I think after I
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: said my statement, I'd at least get at least a
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: few votes. I think Magic gets underrated in this conversation.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: I mean he his career gets cut short, and Jordan
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: and Magic only face off once if he doesn't get HIV.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: I promise you they face off a couple more times.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: Golds Lakers becomes a thing in the early nineties and
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: he gets all he has to do is get one,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: and who's got six? Magic won his first year. You
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: know what Michael Jordan didn't do that. You know what
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: Lebron didn't do that. You know what Kareem didn't do that. Yeah,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: I can go all day on my Magic.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: Listen, we got it one day. You're in DC, right,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: I when I when I come to town next, which
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: will be very soon because I'm fundraising, I will definitely,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: you know, I'll.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: Look you up. I would love to talk sports with you.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: I had the privilege of I had the privilege of
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: me Willbon I've never met Corneiser.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: I would love to. I would love to pick a
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: grant on sports as well.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: But yeah, he would. He would have a blast for that. Hey, John,
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: this has been great, appreciate the time. Congrats on the book.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: Like I said, I it is not your it is
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: not what people expect, but it's I learned a lot
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: both about your father but about you know. It's it's
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: just it's tough to live in some you know, it's
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: both a privilege but it's also taugh and I think
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: you captured it pretty well, uh, the without without coming
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: across like some elitis complaining about their lifestyle.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: It was definitely a difficult needle to thread, but I
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: feel like I think I knew I did the best
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: I could.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: Well be safe on the trail and uh definitely with me.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: H