Latest / The SmallBizChat with Melinda Emerson / How to Take Over a Family Business with Karla Trotman

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How to Take Over a Family Business with Karla Trotman · The SmallBizChat with Melinda Emerson

• 0:00
  Three, two, one, zero, ignition, lift off.
• 0:09
  Ending small business failure.
• 0:11
  Welcome to the Small Biz Chat podcast with the number one small business expert, Melinda
• 0:17
  Emerson.
• 0:18
  Melinda's goal is to end small business failure, and she'll give you the information
• 0:23
  you need to succeed and live the life you dream of.
• 0:26
  Now here's your host, the small biz chat lady herself, Melinda Emerson.
• 0:36
  Podcast?
• 0:37
  Well, it's time.
• 0:38
  Every Wednesday, we offer listeners bite sized actionable tips to start and grow a successful
• 0:45
  small business.
• 0:45
  In just twenty minutes or so a week, you can get a ton of insight and resources to propel
• 0:51
  your business forward.
• 0:53
  Be sure to subscribe to the Small Business Chat podcast today.
• 0:58
  I'm so excited to have Carla Trotman join us on the stage for the Small Biz Chat podcast.
• 1:04
  Carla, you and I have been friends for forever and a day, but this is the first time that you
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  have actually been a been a guest on the Small Biz Chat podcast.
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  So welcome.
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  Thank you so much.
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  I'm so happy to be here.
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  Alright.
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  So let's get into your backstory.
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  You have such an interesting backstory.
• 1:22
  So I wanna know how did you become the CEO of first of all, what is Electrosoft, and how did
• 1:29
  you become the CEO of Electrosoft?
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  Electrosoft is an electronics contract manufacturer.
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  What is a contract manufacturer?
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  It is so think about it from, the perspective of Apple.
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  Apple, you have your iPhone.
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  Apple does not have manufacturing facilities.
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  In fact, they outsource their manufacturing to a company in Asia, and they say, here are our
• 1:51
  drawings.
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  We want you to build this product for us.
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  We do the same thing, except we don't do commercial products.
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  We're not building iPhones.
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  We build electronics for industrial and defense applications.
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  Primarily, we focus on what I call the brain and central nervous system of a device.
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  So you open any device, you'll have a a a circuit board with all these parts in it, and
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  then you'll have cables and wires, something powering it, and and, just generating power
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  throughout.
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  And that's what we build.
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  We help our customers do the electronics, build the electronics for their devices.
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  The company was actually started by my father and mother thirty eight years ago on the
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  kitchen table.
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  It was one of those accidental businesses where my father had the company decided to shut down
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  the instrumentation division.
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  He was running manufacturing.
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  He was writing software for blood analyzing equipment.
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  The company said, we don't do that anymore.
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  And he's home figuring out next step, and someone says, hey.
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  You know manufacturing and cables.
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  Can you build these cables for me to help me out?
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  He did it.
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  They said they're great.
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  And the next thing you know, we were in business.
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  Wow.
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  Wow.
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  So so your father ran the business for how long?
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  Like, when did you join the business?
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  Because you didn't you didn't start out working for your family business.
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  You went and did some other stuff.
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  I sure did.
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  I sure did.
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  So I started so I, you know, I grew up working in the business.
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  Cut helping on the kitchen table, cut wire for 25¢ an hour with a ruler instead of wire
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  cutters.
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  You know, in the garage, helping do things, help when we move from building to building.
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  I didn't really take it serious as a business because, honestly, Melinda, as you know, we are
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  not trained to think of small business as a viable career when you're young.
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  You're just go to college, get that good degree so you can get that good paying job with those
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  good benefits, and don't you ever quit.
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  You all fight for the c suite, and that's how you're gonna make your living.
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  And so when I see my family starting this little business, you know, we don't have a
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  giant skyscraper in the city.
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  We're we're at one point in a a car shop, doing circuit boards.
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  I'm running them through a machine, and I'm helping my dad.
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  And I'm like, this is awful.
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  We didn't have air conditioning.
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  Like, you see your family building this business.
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  You don't think that it could late lead itself to generational wealth.
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  In fact, generational wealth has never really been a discussion.
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  It's just about, like, we gotta pay these bills.
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  We gotta ship it out.
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  And I think, it wasn't until I had, I had gone to college.
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  I was helping my dad with a project after school after college, for the military, and I
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  really just wanted to work in the field that I went to school for.
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  I went to school for, business logistics.
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  I wanted to work in supply chain.
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  But it wasn't until I would say it's been almost almost sixteen years ago that I started
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  working with my father, side by side.
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  I left corporate and said, hey.
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  I wanna run the family business.
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  I I started to realize what legacy was about.
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  I had a small business on the side, a little ecommerce site.
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  And that little ecommerce site, we had a global clientele, and it had celebrities, following.
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  And I realized that small business really is an economic engine, and it caused me to shift
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  gears.
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  And shifting those gears, again, I worked with my dad for almost it was sixteen years ago that
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  I had left corporate.
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  We worked side by side.
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  I said, hey.
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  I wanna take over.
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  He said, cool.
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  Three years, I'm out.
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  That three years took eleven years.
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  But in that time frame so I had an on ramp off ramp period with him.
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  I had a period of training wheels.
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  I had the opportunity to run crazy ideas past him and know that I wouldn't blow the whole
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  thing up.
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  We worked as partners.
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  We I was a trusted adviser.
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  I could, bring an idea, and we could work it out as, business partners in a sense.
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  And three years before he transitioned out of the business, before I became the sole owner, I
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  was running the company.
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  And it kind of in the background, and we didn't tell anyone.
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  And so when he made the announcement that Carla's now the sole owner and the president of
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  the company, If you haven't noticed anything for the past three years, good, because she's
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  been running it.
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  So it kinda gave people that sense of, like, yeah.
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  She she really knows what she's doing after that time frame.
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  But, you know, it was it it really was a long period, but I don't look at it in a poor way or
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  in a sad way or upset way.
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  How many people get the opportunity to work with a parent for a long portion of their life
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  and then really start to rely on you as a a trusted source to help change the generational
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  wealth and succession of the business.
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  I I think that's an extremely important point to make.
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  But, you know, now you've been at the helm a few years now.
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  So how have you brought sort of, like, your vision and your leadership style to the
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  business?
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  You know, you're not your dad.
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  Right?
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  You're you're a you're a a different different kind of leader.
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  And so I wanted to understand, you know, how did you make that transition?
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  You know, obviously, still being deferential to him, but, like, now it's your ship.
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  You're driving the the bus.
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  Right?
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  So Yeah.
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  How did how did you make that transition?
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  It was kinda difficult for me because it was my own mental block.
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  I knew the steps.
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  I knew what needed to be done.
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  I had the education.
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  I had gone to graduate school and had gotten that good MBA that doesn't show you how to run
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  a business.
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  It really, even if we did a lot of case study, and case studies run you through a lot of, just
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  situational things to see how you would think and what you would do so that if you're ever in
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  those situations or parallel to it, you kinda have an idea framework and how to work the the
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  problem.
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  But it it doesn't really cover family business, and it doesn't cover small business, and it's
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  very different.
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  So for me, it was, the first thing I knew I had to do was create an advisory board.
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  I had the whole team that reported to my dad from the management side to bankers, lawyers,
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  everyone.
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  They were used to the way that he would run things, and I could never just run it my way if
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  I was just seen as a replacement.
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  So I had to create my own banking relationships, my own attorneys, my own,
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  advisory team.
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  I we kept the management team, but there needed to be some augmentation because, I I'm thinking
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  from a business perspective.
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  He thinks from a engineering perspective, we I think differently about culture than my father
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  does.
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  Now we have the same family oriented culture, but I'm more structured in a business sense
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  that fairness I know how far fairness goes in business.
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  I know how far especially in a family business where the assumption is nepotism, which it
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  that's what it is, but they also want you to be qualified and so they could trust you.
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  Because if they didn't trust you, they would leave.
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  Mhmm.
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  Thankfully, they people didn't leave.
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  And I think part of it too was running it from the background for and then people knowing me
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  for so long and how dedicated I was.
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  But, also, I we spoke to our customers and let them know, hey.
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  This is what's gonna happen.
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  Carla's gonna be taking over.
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  That's the plan.
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  And the customers were relieved because they're like, well, we like working with you.
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  We don't want any you know, I have to look for another supplier, and we like Carla.
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  So it was that made the transition a lot easier.
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  Mhmm.
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  Did you have any moments of doubt, though?
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  Was there any was there anybody that was just like, I'm not feeling Carla?
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  You know what I mean?
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  And you had to, like, make a hard decision, whether it was an employee or a vendor.
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  Like, was there somebody who was like, I'm not dealing with that man's daughter.
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  Blah blah blah.
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  You know?
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  Like, was there anybody that sort of, like, gave you static and you had to kinda I don't
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  know.
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  You had to figure out how you wanna handle that.
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  The energy, you know, is different because my father and I are so different.
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  And one of the biggest things that I think was helpful was bringing in an organizational
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  psychologist, and that was suggested to me by a member of our board.
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  And what they do is I always call it, like, he's pretty much a therapist, but he helps you
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  think of things from the perspective of the company.
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  How do we create alignment?
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  How do we get over this?
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  Is this a deficiency in your training?
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  Maybe we need to bring somebody in, and they really help, smooth away all of the stuff that
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  people kind of bring to work, but don't express, but they or maybe they express it, but
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  it comes out in a terrible way.
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  Maybe it's an attitude.
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  Maybe it's in the way they do their work.
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  And we worked and that's attributable to culture as well, where people don't feel that
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  they had a voice.
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  So for me, it was really important that we like each other in a sense.
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  We don't have to be in love and hang out afterward and, like, eat other's hair, But we
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  have to respect one another, share information, and really be honest about how we feel about
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  something because I'm relying on all of these people to help move this business forward.
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  So that was hard because we didn't have it that way.
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  I think it was a little bit dysfunctional, at which anytime when you have multiple
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  generations going off of an old school way of operating.
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  Mhmm.
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  Because as you know, cultures change.
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  The workforce of the future is very, very different than it was.
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  Mhmm.
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  So growing up in that change and people part of that change, I've been able to identify how I
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  wanted the company to look.
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  So the hard part for me was, what did I want the company to look like, and how do I get it
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  there?
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  And that org psychologist and the advisory board were so beneficial.
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  So tell me about family dynamics, though.
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  Right?
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  Because you have siblings.
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  You know?
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  I know I think one of your brothers worked in the business.
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  So tell me about how hard that was because I used to work with my former spouse.
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  And then and I think working together almost, you know, kinda finished killing our
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  relationship.
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  So tell me about, you know, some of the family dynamics as you sort of, like, took over the
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  business or, you know, how you handled hard decisions related to family members that work
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  for you.
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  Family dynamics.
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  Yes.
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  So, originally, the goal was all three of us, me and my two younger brothers, would take over
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  the business.
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  One of the things my father always told me was that you go into business with people who have
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  something to offer.
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  And I thought this would be great.
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  My one brother is really smart when it comes to IT and our devices and programming our
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  robotics.
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  The other is very much a hands on mechanical person, so he can help run the production
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  floor, and I'll take over the front and do all the business.
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  What wound up happening is that I saw that we had different three different layers of,
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  dedication.
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  There is the yes.
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  It's our family business.
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  I'm dedicated to the family.
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  Then it's like, this is a job that I have to come in and I gotta do it.
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  And then there was the dedication of, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make it work.
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  And I felt that I was the only one doing whatever it would take to make it work.
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  Everyone else was kind of, like, treating it as a job or an obligation.
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  When, I realized those things, I said to my parents, well, also another thing happened.
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  I failed to mention.
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  When you think about succeeding your business from one generation to the next, it is a
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  taxable moment.
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  It's not like they you think it is on TV where I gave my dad a dollar and then he transitioned
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  the business, or that he gifted it to me in some way.
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  We hadn't been doing stock transfers over the year, which is also a way to do it, but that's
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  not what we had done.
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  What would have needed to happen was that in the time frame we were allotted, I would have
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  to we have to take a giant loan out pretty much and then do some other things to make it
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  transition because it it's a taxable moment.
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  I wound up having to, use all of my assets.
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  Did you need to take out a loan from the bank?
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  And the bank interviews you and looks through your financials, looks at your business, just
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  comes through your life and says, yes.
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  We believe that you will pay us back.
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  And because of my position of having a lot of, assets, because I had a whole career before
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  this, because I had the education, because I had the corporate experience, they believed
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  that I would be able to do it, but I would have to leave everything would be on me to run the
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  company.
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  And when I thought about that, people going to business with people that have something to
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  offer, I looked instead.
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  They don't they're not really coming in.
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  I'm always here, all of my assets, and yet they have 66% of the voting power.
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  Like, how does that work?
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  And then at the end of the year, the net, they get 66% of that.
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  And and the liens are all on my assets.
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  How does that work?
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  Like, how how do I get in go into this deal and not hate myself?
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  Right?
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  How do I, not become bitter towards them feeling that I had to make the sacrifice and no
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  one else did?
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  So I suggested when my parents pushed back and said, no.
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  This is supposed to be a third, a third, a third.
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  I said, well, then why don't you cut the company up into three pieces?
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  And everybody's financially responsible for their own division.
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  They're like, well, they can't do that.
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  I said, exactly.
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  So why is it that?
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  It's my obligation.
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  It's my cross to bear.
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  And we really were at an impasse for a number of years.
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  It took, three years for us to go through that process.
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  So, there were a little bit of hard feelings, but, in the end, my my dad was like, you're
• 16:03
  absolutely right.
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  Why should you put forth all of the risk and only be left with a third?
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  And we even talked about super shared for super voting rights.
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  And to me, I still didn't think that was enough.
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  So I do most of the work and get a a portion of it.
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  What if we get a a nice net sum at the end?
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  And I was like, hey, guys.
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  We need to reinvest in this equipment, buy a building, do something.
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  And they're like, well, I was gonna buy a house.
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  I need that money for this house, or I need to I was planning on doing x y z or just no.
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  Mhmm.
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  They vote against me.
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  How do I have a controlling interest and and have all of the risk and very little reward?
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  So my parents did decide, you know, you're right.
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  You're right.
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  You should be the owner of the business.
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  But that didn't cause any issues because they were able to even it out with other assets in
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  their estate.
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  I just happened to have be living and breathing, and they're living and breathing
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  during the time of the transition of this portion of the estate.
• 17:05
  Got it.
• 17:06
  Got it.
• 17:06
  So they were still able to make your siblings whole without without them feeling like, oh,
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  wow.
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  You guys just gave the most valuable asset to her.
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  You know?
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  And I I recognize that that's that's, you know, that that's totally, totally family drama.
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  But, it I'm glad that you guys worked through it and you're still a family.
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  Right?
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  You know?
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  Because sometimes that happens and and and then nobody comes to Thanksgiving.
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  Right?
• 17:28
  You know?
• 17:28
  Like, that kind of stuff happens.
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  Yeah.
• 17:32
  Yes.
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  Very real.
• 17:33
  Yeah.
• 17:33
  No.
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  It is.
• 17:34
  It is.
• 17:34
  Well, now I wanna switch gears with you a little bit because you wrote this little book
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  that I am so excited about, Dark, Dirty, and Dangerous Yes.
• 17:45
  The vibrant future of manufacturing.
• 17:47
  Now your company is considered an advanced manufacturer.
• 17:51
  Right?
• 17:52
  Yes.
• 17:53
  So talk to me about this book, and, you know, what was the key message in it that you wanted
• 17:58
  people to learn?
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  Well, when, so it was not my dream to write this manufacturing book.
• 18:06
  Honestly, when I looked around for other mentorship within Advanced Manufacturing, I
• 18:11
  couldn't find anyone that looked like me.
• 18:13
  Now they didn't necessarily have to look like me, but I was curious to know if there were.
• 18:18
  And I even asked suppliers, customers, and they said, no.
• 18:21
  They've never really met any person, woman, a black woman, or a black family running
• 18:26
  electronics manufacturing company in advanced manufacturing.
• 18:31
  And my voice was always requested or at the table.
• 18:34
  What do you think?
• 18:34
  What do you think?
• 18:35
  And so it just felt like it was time to talk about it, but I didn't want it to be a boring
• 18:40
  manufacturing book.
• 18:41
  So I wanted to overlay, a story of a black family in a very unique position that happens
• 18:49
  to be manufacturing.
• 18:51
  But I also wanted to leave little breadcrumbs for folks who wanted to follow us.
• 18:57
  And not necessarily in the manufacturing, but high barrier to entry industries who did under
• 19:04
  did not understand family business and how it worked because they would like to have a family
• 19:08
  business, to thought that, oh, well, you know, it's just so easy because they were educated
• 19:14
  and and people just gave them money.
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  No.
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  We had the same systemic issues, and I needed to talk about it.
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  I needed to, like, you know, give the behind the kimono view of what it's like to be black
• 19:26
  in business.
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  And even if you're a successful business, that it's still a struggle.
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  We just happen to be in a struggle for, thirty eight years at this point.
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  The the book was about building authority in the field and standing out.
• 19:44
  The book, I wanted it to be a gift so that my 16 year old could read it easily and say, I got
• 19:52
  an idea of the direction I need to be in.
• 19:55
  And it was important.
• 19:56
  We had this saying in our family when it comes to the business, if you can see it, you can be
• 20:00
  it.
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  We didn't obviously create that, but it's like our mantra in a sense.
• 20:04
  My father, when he graduated from high school out here in the suburbs of Philadelphia, was
• 20:10
  told as a black man who young man who was talented in math and science that he could
• 20:15
  either become a teacher or go into the military.
• 20:18
  Those were his options for jobs.
• 20:20
  So he picked the military, and here he is, 18 overseas, fighting Vietnam war, ends up on
• 20:26
  deployment on the Continent Of Africa where he meets a black electrical engineer, an Ethiopian
• 20:32
  engineer.
• 20:33
  Never met one that looked like him in his life, never even knew that was a possible career, and
• 20:39
  changed the entire trajectory of my family.
• 20:41
  That's when he decided to go to college and study electrical engineering.
• 20:45
  That's when he became you know, he used his talents to create a life for us to create this
• 20:53
  business.
• 20:54
  My mother saw in him like, he followed her to school.
• 20:57
  So, you know, it took a good woman for him to go to school.
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  He follows her there and decides to go into electrical engineering, and she held the held
• 21:05
  the family down while he built this company.
• 21:08
  And so there's a story of partnership in that book.
• 21:12
  There's a story, for us, again, back to our family.
• 21:15
  If you can see it, you can be it.
• 21:16
  So this book is part of it, showing you that it's it's you could be capable and do it.
• 21:22
  We did it.
• 21:22
  There's nothing super special about us.
• 21:26
  We just this is just a, I would say, a little bit of a road map, and give you an idea, some
• 21:33
  inspiration on how to get there.
• 21:35
  And we talk about succession planning a little bit.
• 21:37
  We talk about generational wealth and how small business is the pathway, and family business is
• 21:43
  the lifeblood of of global businesses, and that we hope others can follow suit.
• 21:50
  Definitely.
• 21:50
  But I wanna I wanna dig into the generational wealth piece of this for a second because the
• 21:55
  whole point of why we do any of this, right, is so we can live how most people can't.
• 22:00
  Right?
• 22:00
  So Yes.
• 22:01
  Talk to me about, the generational wealth and the things that you're talking about and
• 22:06
  thinking about.
• 22:07
  Because I think you made a point at the top of this interview that it's not just about this
• 22:13
  business.
• 22:14
  It's about generational wealth for your family, for your children.
• 22:17
  And so can you talk a little bit about how how intentional you've been in your business and
• 22:23
  even in how you structure the business financially to create generational wealth?
• 22:27
  Absolutely.
• 22:28
  So for for me, when I talk about generational wealth, I to not turn people off, there's
• 22:33
  there's levels to this.
• 22:34
  Right?
• 22:35
  So I'm not talking about Rockefeller, Vanderbilt level of wealth.
• 22:40
  That's you know, we want that, obviously.
• 22:43
  But the generational wealth we're talking about from a very basic rudimentary level, Let's talk
• 22:48
  about the fact that we as a black community are having GoFundMe funerals.
• 22:53
  Let's talk about the fact that, you know, grandma's house is not clear in title, and we
• 22:59
  gotta figure out all this stuff, and she passed away.
• 23:03
  We don't know who owns what.
• 23:04
  Oh, and this cousin rolls up from somewhere, and now they're a part owner.
• 23:08
  How do we do this?
• 23:09
  How what is probate?
• 23:10
  Why do we have to go through this now because there's no free title, no free clear title, or
• 23:15
  there's no will, where the will is written on a piece of loose leaf paper that she tucked away
• 23:20
  in a drawer.
• 23:21
  We need to not think of generational wealth as a rock fella.
• 23:26
  We need to think of it as just doing regular basic things, like a simple will, like putting
• 23:33
  things in a simple trust.
• 23:35
  That's a little half a step up so that you don't have to go through an expensive, long,
• 23:42
  excruciating, argumentative period of fighting over something that it will be left with very
• 23:49
  little at the end.
• 23:51
  A life insurance policy, a burial insurance policy, something that will allow the next
• 23:57
  generation to not start in the negative.
• 24:00
  Now as small business owners, we have opportunity to have our children on payroll.
• 24:05
  Now when they're on payroll, what are they doing?
• 24:07
  They're paying it to Social Security.
• 24:09
  They have the opportunity to open a Roth IRA.
• 24:13
  They can put that money into a 529 account.
• 24:16
  That is payroll, so that's pretaxed money for you as a corporation, and you're able to allow
• 24:23
  them to grow their generational wealth where you're not paying out of pocket for college, or
• 24:30
  now you can use that for private school taking about $10,000 a year.
• 24:35
  Now mind you, disclaimer, I am not an attorney.
• 24:37
  I am not a taxist.
• 24:40
  I am not an accountant.
• 24:41
  I am just sharing with you details of how we as business owners, how small businesses tend to
• 24:49
  benefit from the laws that are written for small business.
• 24:53
  So, again, on that very rudimentary areas level, it's about taking care of the basic
• 24:58
  things, insurance, burial insurance, titling, wills, making sure that everything is in place
• 25:05
  for you when you have your untimely demise, or helping your grandmother or mother and father
• 25:13
  to get to that point.
• 25:13
  I know it's hard for them to talk about it, but this was for my family.
• 25:17
  When my family talked about succession planning, it was up here.
• 25:21
  It was not a plan that was executed out on paper side to help them create that so that we
• 25:28
  could successfully move on.
• 25:30
  I've had friends who have family businesses.
• 25:33
  Dad was six.
• 25:34
  Stepmama's, like, put the business in my name.
• 25:37
  Thankfully, they were able to get the succession plan through, and father passed two
• 25:42
  months later.
• 25:43
  Had they not, the mess that would have happened to because of that.
• 25:48
  Yeah.
• 25:49
  Like, when you have step siblings and cousins and aunts and uncles, it becomes, you know, he
• 25:55
  said, she said, this paper, that paper.
• 25:57
  Get your house in order.
• 25:59
  That's how we create generational wealth.
• 26:00
  It's starting even if that extra $10,000 so somebody can get out of their debt or help them
• 26:07
  get to start at least a neutral position because we always, as a community, end up
• 26:12
  starting a negative.
• 26:13
  So for me I'm sorry.
• 26:15
  No.
• 26:16
  No.
• 26:16
  I I'm I'm I'm I'm inquiring you, but, I guess, my my my as we wrap this up, I you know, what
• 26:24
  is the legacy that you hope to live through through your business, the the legacy that you
• 26:29
  hope to leave, for your family, you know, as you as you as you build this this empire that
• 26:36
  you're building?
• 26:37
  Well, I don't want my kids to think that they have to work at Electrosoft.
• 26:41
  I don't want them to have the same feelings that my brothers had felt that they had to be
• 26:47
  here.
• 26:47
  So we're setting it up as an asset, something that they own, where we hire people to run the
• 26:53
  company, and they know how to run the business or own a business as an owner, that we have
• 27:00
  other assets, and they look at their portfolio of assets and understand the financials.
• 27:05
  They have a board of advisors that they believe in.
• 27:08
  There's a fiduciary board that's running things for them.
• 27:12
  So I wanna leave a legacy of asset ownership, and I want them to be able to I'm not trying to
• 27:19
  retire them.
• 27:20
  I want them to still have a career and a life, but I want them to realize that my my parents
• 27:27
  started something that allowed their grandchildren to eat, and now it's my job to do
• 27:31
  the same, and it will be their job to continue that tradition.
• 27:34
  I love it.
• 27:35
  I love it.
• 27:35
  Alright.
• 27:35
  What's the best business advice anyone's ever given you?
• 27:39
  Again, back to what my dad said, don't go into business with people who don't have anything to
• 27:43
  offer.
• 27:44
  And that's for everything, every business, relationship, every organization you join.
• 27:50
  Like, your time is valuable.
• 27:52
  How you spend your time on this earth.
• 27:54
  It doesn't have to be a business.
• 27:55
  It could be how you spend your time on the weekend, who you spend your time with.
• 28:00
  Don't don't spend it with people who don't have anything to offer you.
• 28:04
  That's it.
• 28:05
  That's it.
• 28:06
  Well, thank you so much, Carla.
• 28:08
  That was such good information.
• 28:13
  Are you ready to turn your dreams of entrepreneurship into a reality?
• 28:18
  Hi.
• 28:18
  I'm Melinda Emerson, the Small Biz Lady, and I wanna invite you to check out
• 28:22
  smallbizladyacademy.com.
• 28:25
  We're here to help you every step of the way with our comprehensive training programs and
• 28:30
  expert resources.
• 28:32
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• 28:38
  your goals.
• 28:38
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• 28:42
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• 28:48
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• 28:50
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• 28:53
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• 28:56
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• 29:06
  Thanks for listening to the Small Biz Chat podcast with Melinda Emerson.
• 29:11
  Subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, and join us next Wednesday for
• 29:15
  more fantastic information and interviews.
• 29:15
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• 29:19
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• 29:24
  website, succeedasyourownboss.com.
• 29:27
  Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next week.