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"Freedom For Girls" with Ayaan Hirsi Ali · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

0:00
Get a humans. This is the safe space for dangerous ideas. This is uncomfortable conversations with me
0:07
Josh zips and how do you introduce today's guest?
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I unhersi Ali well, maybe you start by
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doing a potted history of who she is for anyone who either isn't quite across it or kind of vaguely knows the name and
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The rough back story but could do with a little bit of brushing up because one thing I didn't want to do in a rare
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Hour that I was granted with I am was get her to rehash the same story that she's told a bazillion different times
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If you want to listen to it elsewhere
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You can find one of those bazillion times to listen to or I can just give you a a potted history right here
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She is a feminist an activist a rider a
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Scholar form a politician so she was born in Somalia. She's basically Dutch and American. She was born in Somalia and
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Her dad was a revolutionary in the Somali civil war. He was in jail when she was very very young and
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When she was five and her dad was in jail her grandmother against the wishes of her father
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Thought it would be appropriate for her to do what all good young
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Muslim Somali girls did at the time which was to be
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Genetally mutilated
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So her grandmother found a
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Guided do that. Ion has subsequently said that she was grateful that it was a man who did it because the women were much more brutal at the time
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Nonetheless you get the impression extremely
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conservative
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Muslim upbringing when her dad was released from jail
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They fled and bounce around the the Muslim world when she was sort of you know eight to
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To twelve they lived in Saudi Arabia. They went to Ethiopia. They settled in Nairobi in Kenya in
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1980 and Ion was quite a conservative a good Muslim girl
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She's sympathized with the views of the Muslim brotherhood as she wore a hijab with her school uniform
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She recalls
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agreeing with the fatwa against Salman Rushdie
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So well well and truly in scomst in that world view
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But when she was in her early 20s. She traveled from Kenya
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to visit her family in Germany and
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She had an impending arranged marriage back in Africa that she wasn't crazy about and
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somehow found the inspiration or the resilience to
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Leave Germany and go to the Netherlands and request political asylum and say I don't want to live this life
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I don't want to go back and be chattel. I want to be free
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The Netherlands granted her political asylum
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She studied she became de-radicalized. She became
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Liberalized she learned to speak a bazillion different languages. She's she's fluent in English Somali Arabic Swahili
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Amaric, which is the Ethiopian language and also Dutch and then at around this time 9-11 happens and
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she
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renounces Islam and
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Says that she doesn't believe in Allah or in God
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And that sets the course of her life on a completely different trajectory and she becomes quite outspoken in the Netherlands
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Which is like many European well many Western countries grappling with what to do about its large Muslim population in the wake of this obvious
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Thunderbolt of 9-11
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That's causing a lot of people to question
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Whether or not there's a problem there that needs to be addressed and she insists that there is
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She insists that
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The left in Western countries is not being feared income as we say in Australia not being legit on the level
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about the problem of
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radical Islam and
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So she runs for parliament and
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She basically says that the Dutch welfare state in all of its generosity has overlooked
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The abuse of Muslim women and girls in the Netherlands has overlooked their social needs and has contributed to
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the isolation and depression
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Of individual Muslim girls by being so generous towards the broader Muslim community in ways that
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Trampel over the individual rights of the dissident or questioning or a feminist or
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Irreligious 15-year-old Muslim Dutch girl
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And this of course becomes very controversial
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not just in the Netherlands, but all over the world and
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one other event that I actually
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remember from the time
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Even though I was still at university was that Pym Fortein was a
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politician in the Netherlands who during the Dutch national election campaign in 2002
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He was not just a politician. He was an author and a businessman and an academic and his he wasn't a far-rightist
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But he was a
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reformer Marxist and left-wing politician who had become concerned about
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the
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consequences for liberalism for Western European liberalism and freedom and individual rights and feminism and gay rights of
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welcoming in very large numbers of
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conservative
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mostly Muslim migrants
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Not that the majority of Muslim of migrants were Muslim, but that the majority of the communities who were most
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antithetical towards those ideals of feminism and
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big allotarianism
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were
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And so he goes around talking about this during the 2002 Dutch election campaign and nine days before the election
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He is leaving a radio studio where he's just given an interview and
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He's shot in the parking lot
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by a
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left-wing environmentalist and animal rights activist whose angry had him for
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exploiting Muslims and scapegoating Muslims
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So Pym is assassinated and one of his good friends in the Netherlands is a writer and director
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Teo Van Gogh who is the great great nephew of Vincent Van Gogh the
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Greatest one of the greatest artists of all time
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He's the great great he's the great grandson rather of Vincent Van Gogh's brother who was not dealer also called Teo Van Gogh
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and
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So Teo is is a friend of Pym's and he's also a friend of Ion her CLE's. He's a writer. He's a director and he
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He starts making these these short movies about the problems of Islam in the Netherlands
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One of which is a fictional exploration of the assassination of his friend Pym Fortein
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And another of which is a short film called submission
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Which Teo wrote with Ion her CLE
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I think she wrote most of the script. She did the voiceover for it. She's very involved in this thing and
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It was a short film that was critical of the treatment of women in Muslim societies
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So on the second of November 2004 Teo Van Gogh is cycling to work at about nine o'clock in the morning
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and he gets shot and
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The attacker is an Islamist who approaches him and
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finishes off the job not just with the gum, but then with a knife slashing his throat and trying to behead him
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He doesn't quite manage to do so before bystanders chase him away and
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They find that he has stabbed
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Van Gogh in the stomach with a knife and pin to the knife is a note
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With a death threat saying that Ion her CLE will be next
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Imagine that I mean just pause for a moment and think about that
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You've come from this totally brutalizing misogynistic sexist backward society
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We've had your most private parts of your body ripped apart by
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a
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medieval
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misogynistic
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interpretation of a faith
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And you flee
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You start to speak out about the rights of people like you and for doing so
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One of your best friends and professional collaborators
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Is killed
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attempted to be beheaded
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And a note is literally pinned to the knife in his chest
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saying you're next
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So the Dutch secret service gives her protection
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She's a parliamentarian so she's got a bit of protection, but now she obviously gets a lot more
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And she goes into hiding and there's a sort of a parallel here between her and what Salman Rushdie
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went through
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I guess 15 years before
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Uh
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Something that she had supported at the time, but now of course has had a
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a tilt towards liberalism and
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In 2006 she gets recognized as the European of the year
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By the American magazine readers digest but she also gets nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and even higher honor
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I would say then the readers digest nod
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And she subsequently moves to America from the Netherlands
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There's a controversy about her asylum and she drops out of parliament and it leads to the fall of the Dutch government
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I won't go into all of the ins and outs there, but there's a lot of
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She's basically constantly a target of attack from people who regard her as being
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Uh, and Islamafob as being someone who doesn't understand the rich diversity and uh and complexity of Muslim life
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And who is playing into the concerns of the far right
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And
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Part of iron's point that she makes repeatedly in every book including her latest book which i'll get to in a sec
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Is that she wants to wrestle this conversation away from the far right
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She wants to make sure that there are people who are talking frankly and openly about the need for a reformation within Islam
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About the ways in which Islam can be improved
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Uh
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Because if we don't have that conversation
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The far right will and it's not going to take very many more
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9-11's
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For the far right to win and that scapegoating is going on already in
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quasi-authoritarian countries all over the place
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Like hungry
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Like Poland you even see the rise of the far right in countries like France
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So
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Anyway, we're skipping ahead of it there. She moves to america
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In 2010 anwara al-alaki the most popular
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jihadist preacher
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Probably in the world who is listened to online
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By millions of radicalized young Muslims he publishes a hit list in his magazine
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He's got an actual magazine that gets published online called Inspire
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And uh he names ian her cli and someone rush G
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Uh on the
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assassination
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list
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Also on the list
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Although added slightly later is stefan shab shab on you
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Who were worked at charlie ebdol
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This was a few years before someone
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obeyed that exhortation
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And
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Pulled off the charlie ebdol attacks where
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Islamists with machine guns went into this satirical magazine and
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Exterminated so many of those
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Comics and artists and writers one of whom was charlie himself
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And ian her cli
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Now reflects on the fact that when she first moved to the netherlands
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From a strict
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Muslim upbringing in africa
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She was amazed and refreshed to see women
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Alone
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In the netherlands riding on bussism trams and cycling
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free and powered
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self-confident
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unafraid
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That this was
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Something that she cherished about western liberalism
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And she notes that in some european suburbs of the big cities in western europe
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There are now neighborhoods where you don't see many women alone anymore
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They're migrant heavy neighborhoods
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Where
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Young men wander around with swagger
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first or second generation
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And a woman who walks around without a headscarf
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proudly
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unafraid
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The way that she saw them do in the early 1990s when she first moved there
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Is increasingly rare
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And the question that she raises in her new book
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Which is called
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pray
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PREY
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And subtitled immigration Islam and the erosion of women's rights
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Is
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That she's been watching the me too movement unfold in western countries
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especially america
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And applauding it for shining a light on the plight of elite american women
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But she's been asking herself where is that light being shown on poor women of color in the muslim world
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We are reluctant to
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Hold
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Muslim men
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Muslim conservatives to the same standards that we expect of
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Westerners or even to half the standards because we're afraid of being called bigots towards Islam
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Ion is called a bigot towards Islam
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Even though few people understand the impact of conservative Islam on young girls better than she having lived it herself
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One of the interesting things that i would have loved to speak to her about if we'd had more time is
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Precisely that contradiction that we live in a moment where
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Thanks to
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The culture wars and I suppose what you might call wokeness or political correctness or identity politics
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We are supposed to revere the personal experience
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The lived experience as the jargon goes of
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People from minority communities
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It's impossible for a straight white male to plausibly discuss anything to do with indigenous rights or women's rights or
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African-American rights without adding
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An ocean of caveats before they speak saying well
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I'm not a member of that community and so you know we need to hear from the voices themselves and we to elevate
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The voices of those communities and when we hear people from those marginalized communities their experience their lived experience is treated as if it gives them
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A unique insight not just into what it feels like to be a member of that community
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But indeed into what the reality the data of that community is so you know
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Even talking about something like for example the rate of indigenous incarceration in Australia
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Or the rate of fatal police shootings of African-American men in the United States
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or the rate of islamophobic bigotry against Muslims in
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Germany say any of these questions are things that are really being wrestled away from
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the sphere of
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Elite data scientists and policy wonks who tend to be disproportionately white and male
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And they are now being placed in the hands of people who have the lived experience to be able to tell us
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What it's really like to be a member of the subjugated community
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Now there's nothing wrong with that the more voices the better bravo
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But where it becomes problematic is when you have a person who has the lived experience as I um
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does
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But because they don't conform to what white educated western
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Left wingers
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Want to hear
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Their lived experience is derided or dismissed
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Or were still
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Demonized as being bigotry
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Because they don't have the right kind of minority experience
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And Ion her see her see Ali has suffered this her entire life
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Now
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She's written so much and she is so she is spoken on so many things that it's a little bit difficult to even know where you start with
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An interview like this
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Her first book was called the caged virgin
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Her second was called infidel that was a biography
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Her third was called nomad from islam to america
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Her fourth was called heretic white islam needs a reformation now and I mentioned her most recent book prey
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We really hear just scratch the surface of thinking about the individual versus the community
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What the pandemic and sort of vaccine mandates have in common with our relationship to
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Multiculturalism
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You can hang on for that one. It's a tenuous thread, but it's a thread that we get to
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And what women's role should be in the future whether she's optimistic about the fate of liberalism when we talk about liberalism here
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We're not talking about you know a political party or like the liberal party of Australia or something
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We're talking about small L classic ideas of live and let live
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Freedom of speech and individual rights
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Uh, I almost feel like I didn't do a good enough job with this interview because there are so many things that I would have liked to get to that
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We weren't able to get to but it is a start
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Enjoy the one and only Ion her see Ali
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You
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How has your experience of the of the pandemic been how has the past two years gone?
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Um, I belong to the category of people who will say I'm even embarrassed
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To complain at all
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Was my life changed, but nothing dramatic
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Um, I've not lost family members
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Even the ones who are living in Somalia in the remotest parts of Somalia I I don't know
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This for the people who communicate with me. I have not lost family members
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Um
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My husband has not lost family members
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We have
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I tell you we're in the lap of luxury. So what am I to complain about?
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Hmm and say I hate wearing the mask. I hate wearing the mask
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Yeah, I hate it when I don't understand the science or rather the the the logic or rational for doing it
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When everyone is vaccinated
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And we're still required to wait
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I think what the hell is going on? Why you said if we and it's not that you said I mean that's as far as we can all know
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You don't have to wear a mask if everybody's vaccinated
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So then why do I have to put on but that's a discomfort. It's trivial
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And if it's going to make someone in my community feel
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Better you know what I'll just put it on. I'm not going to politicize that. Do you have to wear a mask outside where you are?
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Uh, not outside in the beginning it was outside, but now we don't have to not outside. Yeah
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I don't know how you would enforce that
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I mean, you were dictatorship, but and this is this is the United States of America
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But you know you walk into a business and they say can you please wear it and because that's you know
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What we're all supposed to do and then you just think it makes no point. It's superstitious, but you know what I'll wear it
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Well, when we talk about the question. I know friends. I know people who are then so defiant
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And we'll say I'm not going to wait and then and that I think
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In
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Oh god, I don't know how to explain this with I wish we had we felt that kind of passion about things that are life and death
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And and much more important than
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You you put this thing on
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Take it in during the little amount of time you're in that particular business
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And then just walk out and take it off but but that's me
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I
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You're echoing sort of my feelings about about this as well in terms of how
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Exercise people are becoming and have been all along about the rules of the pandemic and objecting to those rules
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Like when you just jumped on the on the call initially you were saying that Australia
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Has a pretty bad reputation at the moment because of all the videos that are circulating and going viral of
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Police overreach especially in Victoria where Melbourne is in enforcing lockdowns
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But I sort of share I mean living here it is
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Exorsting to have had to go through I mean basically what happened was that the government
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screwed up the procurement of vaccines and didn't
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Get in and off of an order from Pfizer
21:49
Until about three months after the US and Canada and UK had had gotten their orders secured
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This is last you know June July of 2020
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Australia didn't order enough vaccines until November and
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At the time we had successfully kept the virus out
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We just closed the borders essentially and if you came into the country then you had to spend two weeks in a hotel
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And before you could leave and we used
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Lockdowns and and contact tracing to eliminate any viral spread in the community
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And that only took about nine weeks originally and then
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Everyone was able to go out and for 13 months between May of 2020 and February or March of this year
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Sydney at least was completely free and
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Mostly no masks occasional outbreaks from hotel quarantine
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Which were suppressed with good contact tracing and some localized
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Lockdowns, but no city wide lockdown in Sydney for over a year and then Delta
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Came and Delta escaped and it changed all the epidemiology and all of a sudden
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What the public health experts thought they could stay on top of they weren't able to and
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Because we weren't sufficiently vaccinated the question was do you allow the city to become
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essentially
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Transposed into where Northern Italy was last March or New York City was last March or do you
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Uh impose restrictions until we can get the vaccination rates up to 70 or 80%
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And avoid swamping the hospitals and so Australia and New Zealand and Singapore and
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Japan to some extent and Singapore to some extent have had this weird decision that Europe and North America never had
23:39
To take because they didn't manage to
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Eliminate the virus at all successfully initially which is do we choose to unleash it or do we
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Make a bit of a Faustian pact and a trade-off and
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Essentially impose quite illiberal authoritarian rules for
23:58
sort of 10 to 12-week period and while we're getting desperately vaccinated and they chose the latter
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But I can totally understand that to a foreign eye especially to a lot of my American friends when they see isolated incidents of
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You know the police enforcing one silly rule or another in telling someone who's sunbathing on a beach to move along
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Even though there's no one else there or
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You know asking questions and going to people's going to people's doors to see whether or not they were involved in an anti lockdown protest
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Some weeks ago or something that all looks like we've become a dictatorship, but
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I think in the context of the short-term emergency
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Crackdown those are I regard those more as
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unfortunate examples of a global phenomenon of police overreach
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Rather than something specific to Australia and I think in six months
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those they won't be any more of that and
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You know each country will have had its own failings in dealing with the pandemic and maybe Australia
24:57
Australia is kind of
24:59
bullying and nanny state
25:01
Authoritarian streak came out a little bit more than I would like but the deaths of Australian democracy are greatly exaggerated
25:07
I would say
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And and I'd say on that note, you know any democracy liberal democracy any
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Really any society let me tell you this and and I think it's probably
25:22
Uh a law of nature
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Is this
25:28
If there isn't actual emergency
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real emergency
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I'm talking about second world war type of emergency
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And even liberal societies have to become authoritarian
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Hmm and I think deep down every human being understands
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That when you have that kind of catastrophic challenge
25:55
If you have a functioning government
25:59
that particular government has to
26:02
Make choices that are just awful and and limit liberty and but that the argument for that
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The argument for that is
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We have to make these terrible choices
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For this moment for as long as this terrible
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Challenge
26:23
Last so it could be war it could be a pandemic it could be
26:29
Whatever it is and and you have to argue it and you have to as a government especially a liberal government
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You have to answer all of these questions it is not time to say
26:41
Whose fault was it who is to blame and so on you it's right now people are doing
26:48
On the government has to take these emergency actions
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and
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Please let me just finish my thought because I wanted to say to you in liberal societies a key component
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Well shall I say since 1945
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Well almost not
27:09
Confronted with this kind of life and death matter
27:13
And so what you describe as a life and death is always a different
27:20
from
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I don't know I'm talking about places where
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Life is cheap and it's Hubsian and it is brutal and short and so at what point do we allow the government to say
27:36
This is it and from now onwards
27:39
Everybody's going to stay indoors
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And we're going to take this draconian
27:46
Liberty
27:48
Creteling measures. How do you explain that to the public?
27:53
What I think the pandemic has taught us is where there is high trust people trust their governments
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Um people are willing to say okay
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um
28:06
In this case
28:09
I will just abide by these constraints restraints a cartels to liberty
28:16
uh
28:17
It's necessary and it's rightly understood self-interest if I do it my neighbor will do it we all get to survive
28:26
It's win-win and we're all hanging together in a situation we don't understand
28:32
not yet and
28:34
I think this is then what comes for liberal governments as opposed to authoritarian governments
28:40
Which is what is it about the pandemic that we know
28:44
What could we know when did we know it who was responsible for what and when are these
28:51
Um constraints to liberty going to end
28:55
Any government that can answer that quite like meets
29:00
Look at people in the eye
29:02
The voters and say and be honest and be transparent
29:07
This is what we know at this point five months later we know a little bit more
29:12
Ten months later we know a little bit more okay the vaccine then shut up
29:17
We then require you to trust
29:21
And it's all about trust and winning the trust of the people
29:25
Take this vaccine
29:27
Then what happens after you've taken the vaccines
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How will that
29:34
Change things and I think almost every government and shamefully so
29:40
Every liberal government literally failed
29:45
At distinguishing themselves
29:48
from
29:49
Governments that are authoritarian and illiberal where they impose things
29:56
I live in the United States of America. It's not the government of Singapore. It's not the government of China
30:02
It's not the government of any other
30:05
Benign or malign authoritarian government and our government has failed
30:10
Under Trump and under Biden they simply failed at these basic things
30:16
And so to blame and to say Australia or
30:21
The Australians are not the Australians are really no different from any other society
30:26
They've been told to go into lockdown
30:29
people have been asking
30:32
Can you asking their own government why
30:35
And their own government cannot explain to them long enough and I would say
30:40
Hooray for Australia good for you that you tell your government we're not standing for this
30:47
Then the government responds
30:50
In the way they did and I think what the Australian government then did is make use of this emergency powers
30:57
And I caution the Australian government and I caution any other government in a liberal society when you respond with these
31:05
sort of
31:06
you know
31:08
Powers that are really reserved for only emergency moments you respond in that way you are inviting more backlash
31:15
and and then the lines between what is an authoritarian government
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What's a liberal government that starts to blur
31:24
Yes, and it's interesting that
31:26
When you mandate things you've
31:28
Feminced the backlash that prevents you from reaching the goal that the mandate is supposed to achieve in the first place
31:34
I've been rethinking this a bit lately in the context of vaccines
31:38
Um, I wrote a piece for Barry Weiss's sub stack a few weeks ago
31:43
uh, she was putting together some
31:45
Opinions about
31:47
Vaccine mandates from around the world and uh, my piece basically said that
31:52
Vaccine mandates are a cruel and intolerable infringement on personal liberty and I support them
32:00
Because I didn't see any other way of getting life back to normal
32:04
But in the past few weeks I've read more data out of places like
32:08
Spain and other places that have really high vaccination rates that have achieved them
32:13
Not through mandates which can provoke a backlash but
32:17
Through more community legwork and all the boring old things that help persuade
32:22
People and build the trust that you're talking about
32:25
So it is a delicate balance and I think even a lot of Australians would accept that the the government that has has gotten to a point at which the the restrictions became
32:36
Too driven by fear and nannying and inadequately driven by
32:42
Science and the values of of liberalism, but let's talk about those values of liberalism because it is interesting what people focus on people
32:50
You know people who object very much to the Australian lockdowns talk about
32:55
Freedom being under threat in Australia and the building of
32:59
mandatory quarantine facilities as being like concentration camps
33:04
And I find it odd because
33:06
Australia does run actual concentration camps for people who arrive by boat and we put them on naru and pop when you guineas
33:13
So that they can't get asylum in Australia and
33:17
Our countries are doing all kinds of things and you know your focus on human rights in the Muslim world
33:23
There's another thing that sort of bubbles along in the background and never quite manages to make the front page
33:29
To an extent at which it becomes a fashionable thing for people to be concerned about so they're always concerned about
33:35
The latest transgression that's jangling right in front of our faces
33:38
But not so much on the bigger things that we might want to look at where should our gaze
33:44
Be going at the moment
33:47
My gosh, you have packed so much
33:53
So where should I begin? Well, let me begin by revisiting what we just talked about which is if a government is
34:00
Trust worthy meaning worthy of the trust of the people who voted for that government or who
34:07
um
34:09
Even if they didn't vote for that particular government they recognize the legitimacy of the government
34:14
uh
34:15
What you have then is trust and truth and transparency and there's a communication where
34:22
uh the government knows something they know it uh if they
34:28
Knowing all of this um
34:31
If they uh abuse that trust there's
34:35
The backlash that comes through what we call the ballot box and again a distinguishing factor
34:42
Um from authoritarian governments
34:47
I was i grew up in a repressive society repressive family repressive community
34:53
various repressive governments
34:55
Why were they repressive because they didn't trust if you don't trust your own children to tell you the truth because they are too scared
35:04
That they're frightened they can't tell you the truth what the children do is they lie to you
35:10
You have no transparency you have lies
35:14
You have deceit and you empower
35:19
That way the people who can deceive the most
35:24
In essence that is the true meaning of corruption
35:28
It's those of us were clever enough
35:30
To lie and cheat and deceive in ways that other people can't see or if they see it they think it's good for them
35:37
And I want to go back over and over again to that
35:42
What is it that distinguishes an authoritarian government from liberal government with liberty
35:50
What you want to do is you want to entice you want to persuade you want to
35:57
um
35:58
seduce people to come to your way of thinking and you put a lot of hard work into persuasion
36:06
But for persuasion to make sense logic also has to make sense
36:13
So this is a long way of saying to you
36:20
Why is Australia a rich country a powerful country
36:25
Why is Afghanistan a poor country a savage country a country that depends on outsiders to rescue it from its own
36:34
tragedy
36:36
fundamentally
36:38
That's why because you either invest in trusting your population
36:44
By persuading them or you invest in forcing them coercing them to do things that they don't want to do
36:52
That's the fundamental difference and I think the pandemic
36:56
immigration
36:57
National identity globalization all of these issues of today and make it are confronting us with these
37:05
With this reality
37:07
Do we want a trust-based society truth-based society or do we want
37:14
To take a shortcut which is very appealing make people do things that they don't want to do and when you do that
37:23
If you control the levels of physical force people will lie they will cheat
37:30
Go back to the pandemic people will say they're vaccinated when they're not vaccinated
37:35
People and then you have to come up and be creative
37:39
You have to come up with ever more powers of making sure that people are not cheating and lying
37:45
It becomes ever more invasive and then it becomes
37:49
Completely self-destructive
37:53
One of the things that you raise about trust in your your new book pray is the trust breakdown especially in western europe
38:02
Between communities who've been there for a long time and the recent influx of migrants
38:08
What is that fracture what is that friction?
38:12
So again and I'll literally place everything on the fundamentals of truth is this
38:18
There are some immigrants who come into places like australia america and various countries in europe
38:24
They are leaving places where they don't have trust where violence is
38:29
Paramount they want to adjust they wants to adopt
38:33
The norms the rules of our use in this they succeed they thrive
38:39
But in truth there are also people who just go
38:42
because
38:44
That's how as human beings animals that we are hardwired you leave an uncomfortable place
38:51
You try to go to a place where things are more comfortable
38:54
But then you haven't changed your way of doing things and then there are challenges
38:59
Those challenges they can range from people
39:02
not seeking employment
39:05
because
39:06
A government will provide welfare ever so readily
39:11
to
39:13
Committing crimes or or doing things that in the country of origin may have been acceptable
39:18
But in the country that you come to actual crimes
39:22
Here one specific example
39:25
Is child marriage polygamy
39:29
In some parts of the world these things are not considered crimes they're considered to be
39:38
You know it's the norm
39:41
Then so then you have an encounter between two different societies different backgrounds
39:46
Different cultures different ways of doing things
39:51
A liberal society would be
39:58
I'm looking for the right words here
40:01
a liberal society
40:03
with
40:05
based on
40:07
The fundamentals of how can we gain the trust of the most people in society
40:14
Would do well if they were honest about these things and say well now you're here and we do things differently
40:21
You think it's a good thing to marry a nine you all we think it's a crime
40:27
We're not going to allow it
40:30
And that I think is the failure in the 21st century of liberal societies is that
40:39
The prevailing philosophy is one in which they think that they can swayed by
40:49
condoning
40:51
or
40:54
I don't know allowing in some ways
40:57
For these things to take place in a liberal society there there are no red lines all boundaries are blurred
41:04
Only when it comes to immigrants and and in that sense I think you what you then achieve is this
41:13
You get contempt
41:16
From the people who come from different cultures because you do things differently and so
41:21
Oh
41:22
Being human being tribal
41:26
People who do things
41:28
In a different way from the way you do things you have contempt for them you feel sorry for them
41:33
But you also gain contempt from your old society
41:38
Because your own voters ask you so where is the red line?
41:42
We have laws if we have laws, but we don't enforce them
41:47
Then what where where do the boundaries lie?
41:50
And our politicians our academics our journalists in liberal societies from Australia to America to Canada to Europe
41:58
We don't seem to be able to answer these questions
42:02
How does this rely on to what we were just talking about about
42:07
Winning people over with sugar rather than forcing them
42:11
To do what you want in the context of vaccine mandates
42:15
You know the the delicate dance of stitching together trust
42:20
Rather than enforcing rules because
42:23
Part of the criticism of you and of people who would like to reform to see greater reform of Islam and greater accountability for Muslim migrants in the West
42:34
To adhere to western rules is that you're driving
42:39
Moderate Muslims into the arms of more extreme or conservative Muslims by
42:43
Demonizing them all or making generalizations about how they behave rather than
42:48
Winning them over to the the liberal project. What is the balance between enforcing liberal rules on smaller communities who may be more conservative
42:58
Versus allowing them to make their way towards liberalism at their own pace
43:05
I think fundamentally a liberal society recognizes that there is such a thing as individual agency
43:14
You make choices that's if if that's the premise that your society is based on
43:21
Then you will be able to persuade
43:24
Most human beings to accept the notions of science and collaboration
43:33
and the idea of and I
43:36
You know
43:37
I'm a student political science and we used to use this phrase win win
43:40
And I will always use to have this sequel a win win. So how do I win and you win when we have a conflict of interest
43:48
And they always use to say just and don't leave any money on the table
43:52
But I would compare it to my Somali clan background which was
43:59
Very much about win lose when you win
44:03
You don't just win and take what's on the table you humiliate
44:08
The loser you kill them you take their women as slaves
44:13
You take their children as slaves
44:17
That's a win the definition of victory was crystal clear in my Somali clan background as it is in
44:27
all the liberal
44:30
Societies in the world
44:33
What was appealing about liberalism to me?
44:37
Was that you didn't have to do that you didn't have to kill other human beings
44:41
humiliate them and slave them etc etc
44:45
You could sway them to say there's something in it for you
44:49
If you get vaccinated and I get vaccinated you can go back and resume our lives
44:56
now
44:58
How can I trust you as the government or the figure of authority?
45:02
That
45:05
The vaccination is worth taking when I'm skeptical
45:08
I'm skeptical as a black American because of I don't know if you how much of the history of America you know but
45:17
Black Americans were abused and slaved and subjected to all sorts of terrible things and one of the
45:25
vivid memories they have at these
45:28
um
45:30
Experiments were
45:32
all sorts of
45:34
Medical and genetic experiments what you know carried out on them and so
45:39
When you come around and say take a vaccination any African-American logically impressionally will say oh yeah, right you take it first
45:47
Why should I?
45:49
So you you want to entice you want to sway do you want to say it's a win-win if you want to say it's a win-win
45:56
Then the science behind it has to be transparent and I think the best part of science that I love the most is this
46:05
It's the part that says I don't know
46:09
You admit what you don't know that's what separates you from superstition the witch doctor in Somalia says
46:16
I'm going to give you this concoction and you are going to be fantastic. You're going to be better
46:22
The scientist is the true scientist will say
46:26
I'm going to give you this pill. I don't know what it will do for you because we've done research after research study after study
46:34
It has helped this many people and based on that knowledge. We hope and we think it's going to help you
46:43
But if it doesn't
46:46
You belong to the minority whatever
46:48
I'm thinking so I'm trying to to use the kind of language
46:52
I would use when I'm trying to persuade someone to take a vaccination vaccines
46:58
Have been revolutionary they have changed human like they eradicated things like smallpox and polio and so on
47:07
So take that it is a risk anytime you take something into your system
47:11
You are taking a risk
47:13
We hope this is what we've done to achieve this
47:17
now once you have it and it's worked with the largest number of people and this is exactly what we are seeing with these vaccines
47:25
Then our government has to answer questions then why do I have to wear a mask
47:31
Why do I have to live with these restrictions and then every single answer takes you back to agency
47:39
Because there are people who don't want to take the vaccine
47:44
It's a fast-walled problem. It's a luxury problem. There are people
47:50
Even after all the evidence who are saying I wanted to risk getting COVID
47:55
At that point we're talking about agents. We're saying you are taking a risk. It's a trade-off
48:01
If you get it you deal with the consequences
48:05
We have to talk to people like adults
48:09
And if you say well, we have the vaccine. We're going to force it down everybody's throat
48:13
Or everybody's arm
48:17
I think you start to enter the waters of lose, lose, lose
48:22
And that's what some of our governments are doing
48:26
I don't want to stretch the analogy I on to until it breaks between
48:31
anti people who are skeptical of the vaccine
48:34
I don't want to say anti-vaxxers because some of them think that that's demonizing but people who are
48:38
skeptical of the vaccine or hesitant about taking it and other subcultures
48:43
But let's talk about Muslim communities in the West
48:48
Because I think there is something of an analogue here about
48:53
How much should the majority and the elites be able to impose their will on
49:00
dissident communities
49:03
And the first part of your book
49:07
Really lays out the problem as you see it of
49:12
What you call the unsafe streets in Europe and I think in order to talk about integration
49:17
assimilation and multiculturalism
49:19
We have to understand what's happening in some of the suburbs of
49:23
Big European cities. Can you just give us a thumbnail sketch of that as you see it
49:30
My book is called pre
49:32
And when I talk about praise P-R-E-Y not pray to God
49:37
But pray as in hunter and hunted
49:41
And yes, human and animal life is that the males hunt and the women are hunted
49:47
But then there's something called civilization
49:50
And over time we're in a place where it shouldn't think shouldn't work that way anymore
49:55
Women should feel females should feel protected
49:58
That's what distinguishes us from animal
50:02
And have agency and be able to
50:06
Get educated and work and be free and in fact empirically we've seen
50:12
That the societies that invest in that kind of thing where women are no longer prey
50:17
That they are the advanced societies
50:20
They are the societies that are wealthy and peaceful and where people want to come to
50:25
Now if you're coming from Afghanistan or Iraq or Somali or whatever and you're a male and you're young and you're still
50:32
I don't know answering to these instincts
50:36
I think we should again, and I'm going back to agency say
50:41
Look here's what how it works. You're now in Australia or you're now in Sweden
50:46
Who cares
50:49
We expect you to behave in this way
50:52
I think the assumption that you don't know is justify
50:56
I think maybe it's the responsibility of the society that's receiving you
51:01
To educate you in this way in a world that is globalizing at a very fast pace
51:08
But if you continue if you violate these rules
51:12
norms values
51:15
I think you should have the dignity of your agency
51:19
So our politicians I think in liberal societies I think they rob individuals of agency
51:28
It's one thing to say you're welcome
51:31
You can live here
51:34
Will help you like in times of welfare. I wouldn't give people free this and free that free education free free free free
51:41
I would say here's what we're going to do. We're going to give you
51:45
The road map the manual of how our society works and how it thrives
51:53
We're going to help you with that
51:57
You defied you go back to where you came from
52:03
I don't I don't have any problems. It has nothing to do with skin color. It has nothing to do with
52:11
oppression
52:13
Colonialism slavery Jim Crow all of these things. I think that they're huffed up and puffed up to mean nothing
52:22
The real transaction is this I come from a society where my life is threatened by the chaos. I have no economic future
52:35
I'm a young man
52:38
Life is short and it's brutal and it's nasty and I'm coming to a society where I think
52:46
I have a chance an opportunity
52:49
To make a living
52:51
To marry to have children to see old age. That's the transaction
52:57
You allow me into that society
53:00
That's humane and human friendly
53:03
There is a manual by which you have to live. I adopt it. I
53:10
Don't I go back that's really
53:14
The only the true leadership would be someone or a number of people who are able to communicate that
53:24
An international institution like the United Nations would be an organization that is able to communicate that
53:32
And that's where I think 21st century leadership has failed and failed appallingly you take any private company you mentioned sub stack earlier
53:45
Take any private company
53:49
Private companies businesses enterprises that don't abide by the rules that make them survive
53:58
Thrive be competitive. They go down. They go extinct immediately
54:07
Why does it work
54:10
When it is about corporations and governments are supposed to pretend that it doesn't
54:16
Why is it that one family the family where there is a father and a mother and
54:22
And those two people invest in raising their children to be the best that they can those families thrive
54:33
Where you don't have a father and you bring children into the world and things go awry
54:40
They don't thrive. Maybe the occasional child does but that is because of the child because of fortune because of
54:48
What we always thought was wrong, which is arbitrariness. There's it's arbitrary
54:54
For a child in that kind of context to come out of poverty and all of these challenges
55:00
And so then we admire that child, but the answer is not that's then all going to single parenthood
55:07
And that's what we're doing and I think the clear failure of leadership that we're seeing is that we are making the wrong the people who are saying that they are leaders
55:16
Uh, taking agency away from individuals
55:23
Is why are they doing that is it partly an attempt to
55:27
Count how to community leaders in smaller sub communities is it because they think that
55:34
There are higher principles than liberalism. Can you put some flesh on on the bones
55:39
Well part of it obviously is well intention and I think I can take the pain away
55:44
If you become a parent you will see
55:47
How you rescue your own children from the pain of learning
55:51
Uh, you can see in your own household as opposed to the household. I was burned
55:58
Many times by the time I was age five because I kept running to the fire my grandmother would say she'll learn
56:04
And I have a few scars to show for that I learned the hard way now not every child learns that way many children die
56:13
So I'm not saying I'm not proposing that we go back to that kind of
56:19
You know harshness of
56:23
Trying to bring about inside. I don't know. I let my kids climb on pretty tall rocks so that they can fall off and hurt themselves
56:30
Rather than constantly shouting at them to get down
56:35
That so that's one way of giving it and and I think this and then then there's that soft way of let's cushion them against
56:42
Possibly everything that could hurt them
56:45
And and I don't know what you achieve with that cushioning and then obviously there's also a lot of guilt in wealthy societies where
56:53
Because you haven't been there physically
56:57
Personally and and and present in the way that you should have been
57:02
Uh, you give them all this extra presents and whatever to make you feel less guilty
57:07
So in the rich world there is a lot of
57:10
What we colonized and we enslaved and we are
57:14
I don't know we have it things are fine here. So a little bit of giving is not a problem
57:22
I think if you talk about good intentions
57:25
There's a lot of that and then there's of course
57:30
narrow interests and profit making and greed and
57:35
And so it's a combination of all of these things. It's a it's it maybe even as
57:43
You know gosh
57:45
cynical as I just want to win the next election because I like my job as a member of parliament
57:51
Minister of President or whatever and so now I'm going to you know make these decisions that have
57:58
a huge impact on
58:02
The lives of masses and masses of human beings just because you want to stay in your job
58:09
And if you want to stay in your job as prime minister or president or MP or person or power
58:15
You have to think about these things you have to understand that there are consequences to your leadership
58:23
And leadership can never be that you rob a people of their agency
58:28
You look at the welfare state the history of the welfare state which was noble
58:35
And now the welfare state has become a magnet
58:39
For people in poor countries to think if only I could go to Australia
58:43
I never have to worry about food. I never have to worry about shelter. I never have to worry about
58:50
Health care or this or that because they'll give it to me for free
58:55
If you're a leader and you understand that dynamic then you should take the leadership role of saying oh no
59:02
That's not how it works
59:05
Why is it is it not appropriate that a country which is has one of the highest per capita
59:13
You know
59:14
Wealth in the world that anyone who comes here should be able to avail themselves of what other of a part of that bounty to get themselves
59:23
started
59:26
It's one way of looking at it. I had a very rich uncle when my father wasn't there to look after me
59:33
The idea was we just go to the rich uncle
59:37
And we exhort him
59:39
Making him feel guilty that he has so much and so he has to give it to us
59:44
If you follow that logic
59:47
All you will do is beg
59:51
Blackmail
59:54
Exort that's what you will do
59:57
But what if you knew
59:59
That purely because of incentive if that uncle had said get out of here you go
1:00:06
Fend for yourself or maybe I'll help you I'll pay the school fees all but
1:00:11
But somehow I'm gonna help you
1:00:15
Find a fishing rod not give you fish
1:00:19
Things would be different and we all know story after story
1:00:23
This is the human story that those who are given fishing rods
1:00:29
They are the ones who come on top they are the ones who thrive
1:00:32
So yeah, if your government thinks oh, we are so rich. Let's bring everyone in and give them fish
1:00:39
well
1:00:41
That's going to be a very temporary affair and they're not going to like you for it
1:00:46
They're gonna hate you for it because now that you've brought you've given the fast slice of fish
1:00:51
Then what about the second and the third and the fourth
1:00:54
Then why you make why you sending me to prison because I
1:00:58
Committed a crime in my country. It's not a crime here. It's a crime. You're sending me to prison
1:01:03
So that same leader who gave you the fish
1:01:07
Now has to answer to the the complexity of human interest
1:01:12
And and that's where our leaders fail it's when things get complex
1:01:17
By then they're retired
1:01:20
I mean, it's do you see a difference between Europe and the US on this because I think Australia probably is situated somewhere between the
1:01:29
The enormous welfare states that you see in some of the European especially northern European countries and the
1:01:35
Sparseness of the welfare state in the United States and I think most Australians would agree with the fishing rod
1:01:42
analogy don't give them fish but give them as many tools as as they need as migrants need to be able to
1:01:48
Make it in your society and don't be too mean in helping them
1:01:52
Get to where get up on to their own two feet so that they won't need too many fish in the future
1:01:57
Where is the balance being struck?
1:01:59
correctly
1:02:02
So in America on the two coasts we have
1:02:07
East Coast West Coast where I think our politics and our debates and our discussions are becoming very Europeanized
1:02:15
in the sense of just
1:02:17
For a lot of people it's also the easy way out. It's like with parents. Just give them a stick a device in front of them
1:02:24
And and then you don't have to deal with the noise
1:02:28
and the distraction and so on and so on the East Coast and the West Coast
1:02:32
I think we do have this let's give them the fish
1:02:37
On the East Coast and West Coast we also have people
1:02:41
Who are in power and in positions of leadership
1:02:45
Who got there because they gave things away because they believe we have a generation the millennials and be who really think
1:02:53
And believe in this stuff they believe that if you give people fish you get elected
1:02:59
You are popular. You're wonderful
1:03:02
And so they all they want to do is just extract taxes and give people fish
1:03:08
Uh
1:03:09
Whether they are residents or whether they come from elsewhere and then in the middle of the country
1:03:16
I think it's
1:03:19
And there are places in America that are like Mogadishian
1:03:24
Where you know you don't make it you don't make it and so
1:03:30
And our climate is not as temperate and wonderful as European climates we have all sorts of
1:03:38
You know
1:03:41
Challenges from and and and the people in the middle of the country they don't hide behind the climate change and
1:03:49
Oh, there's a hurricane
1:03:51
Because a human being did something no it's you you came to this country and it's a harsh country the landscape is
1:04:00
Harsh and you want to survive and you did this because you wanted to and so you have to
1:04:07
And nobody's going to rescue you if you left Guatemala or El Salvador or Mexico or
1:04:13
The Middle East and you're here in the middle of the country in between the two coasts the places that they call flyover
1:04:21
It's because you want to make it so either they get a fishing rod or they get nothing
1:04:28
And so the work of that I find um
1:04:31
The most interesting to talk to that I land the most from
1:04:36
Are those fast generation immigrants who actually made it and they say no one gave us anything
1:04:42
And and they and they say the only thing this is really what make for them what makes a difference is
1:04:49
That um they are so called governments of the countries that they were leaving running away from that were in their affairs all the time
1:04:58
That they have refuge from that so they have no problems surviving
1:05:03
They just don't want the government telling them what to do
1:05:08
And they understand a true meaning of freedom
1:05:13
Yeah, and the I was just reading you're reminding me in terms of government standing up for liberal values and
1:05:23
Allowing people to stand on their own two feet as long as they abide by a common rules of liberal democracy
1:05:30
I did you see what Justin Trudeau in Canada
1:05:35
said recently about there have been
1:05:39
There was a book burning a series of book burning ceremonies by first nations
1:05:44
Canadians in the in one of the provincial school districts
1:05:48
This was a post-colonial anti-colonial thing. It's a purification by fire of texts that are oppressive
1:05:57
And Trudeau was asked about it and and said that it is it's not for a white non-indigenous male to be commenting on the practices of
1:06:07
Of first nations people who've been oppressed for so long
1:06:10
But personally he he wouldn't choose to burn books
1:06:13
But he can't judge anybody else who would who would burn books in order to overcome
1:06:18
colonialism and it did make me wonder like if you can't draw a line in the sand at at burning books
1:06:25
Then what kind of a liberal infrastructure are you setting up for migrants to come with a spy or to be part of
1:06:34
So I'm going to ask you a question since we're talking to an Australian audience
1:06:39
the fluffy
1:06:41
white stuff or colored stuff that you put on a birthday cake
1:06:48
It's it's icing here, but people would understand frosting as well
1:06:52
frosting so to me just in Trudeau is pure frosting
1:06:56
There's no substance in there
1:06:58
The guy is pure frosting
1:07:01
Whatever you want to put on him you can put sprinkles on him you can he will say whatever it is that you
1:07:09
You think is is sweet and
1:07:14
This appears as quickly as frosting
1:07:17
Or he's as nauseating as frosting if you eat enough of it and and I have had enough of
1:07:24
Justin Trudeau and other frosting type of leadership like that
1:07:29
There is no substance to it. There is no substance whatsoever
1:07:34
Listen if you're an Australian
1:07:37
Your burn books today tomorrow you are burning people
1:07:42
The it's just how it works. You don't
1:07:48
You're not prepared
1:07:52
To process deal with ideas concepts
1:07:59
curiosity
1:08:01
So we started with agency and we talked a lot about agency and an individual human being with agency is curious
1:08:08
And people who are curious are going to put their thoughts
1:08:11
their ideas on paper and well now on in the internet
1:08:18
For those of us who understand that history of ideas
1:08:23
And how it has advanced humanity
1:08:27
Anybody who entertains the idea of
1:08:31
burning books
1:08:34
books
1:08:36
Don't read it don't go to the library don't open that book
1:08:40
But to go as far as to a barrage
1:08:45
That is a mind so walked so sick
1:08:50
And a mind that is hell bent on burning a book is a mind that is open to the idea of burning books
1:08:59
I plead guilty
1:09:01
I was
1:09:03
Invited to burn Salman Rushdie's book
1:09:08
I was 19 years old 18 years old. I was a teenager. I mean, maybe I can hide behind ignorance and youth and all that. I had not read book
1:09:20
But if it wasn't the book and it was Salman Rushdie himself
1:09:24
I always ask and this is my nightmare what would I have done would I then have burned the man
1:09:29
And that is it's those societies where ignorance prevails and for Justin to go
1:09:39
To refuse to take a stance on that. I think it is so horrific
1:09:47
He thinks he's doing the Native Americans the Native Canadians the aborigines of Canada. He's doing them a favor
1:09:55
By being vague on that
1:09:58
I'm this Justin Biden
1:10:04
It's hard for me to know why liberalism is falling out of favor the way that it is
1:10:10
I don't I mean when I hear you say
1:10:13
If the book is offensive then don't read it
1:10:17
I am reminded of the controversy around Dave Chappelle's
1:10:21
latest Netflix special where a lot of the cultural elite are saying that it should be removed
1:10:28
I mean, this is something that we keep seeing come up and I don't want to
1:10:31
Bang on about cancel culture because I think it it sheds more
1:10:36
Heat than light at this stage, but there is clearly some kind of generational or cultural rift
1:10:43
Between the point of view that you just articulated
1:10:46
Which is that if a book is offensive to you then don't read it and
1:10:51
Increasingly popular point of view which is that the book is not just offensive to me. It is a representative
1:10:58
It is a is a kind of totemic
1:11:00
thing
1:11:01
in a fabric a network of oppression of sexism misogyny colonialism patriarchy white supremacy that has
1:11:11
been conspiring for centuries to keep down people of color and
1:11:17
Transgender people and LGBTQI people and that you need to dismantle that
1:11:23
Through force and part of that is holding these points of view to a very high level of accountability which might be
1:11:30
Excluding them from polite company excluding them from public discourse
1:11:34
removing their content from streaming services and ultimately maybe
1:11:39
banning those books
1:11:42
Are you seeing a
1:11:45
I kind of a
1:11:46
I feel like I've got two one-legged in each camp, but each one is on a robot and they're drifting apart in a river
1:11:52
And eventually we're going to fall in the in in the river and I don't know how to bring them back together
1:12:00
But it's fake accountability
1:12:04
Because real accountability and again, I swear I don't mean to hop on this but
1:12:09
You know, I have I think through the same things that you do
1:12:12
I'm going to make an admission. I'd no clue who David Chappelle was until this incident
1:12:20
Now I know who he is I'm watching his work and I'm thinking good for you
1:12:25
What a brave man what an awesome man because here's what he says to me and the rest of
1:12:32
The people in show business and his audiences. I'm a comedian. I want to make you laugh
1:12:40
now
1:12:42
As you know, I hope you know
1:12:44
That the things that will make you laugh the most sense of humor irony just the absurdity of being a human being
1:12:54
It's the things that most of us don't want to talk about
1:12:58
So this guy is taking that stuff on
1:13:02
To me, he's a hero right now and
1:13:06
I'm watching very closely what Netflix is going to do because Netflix's entire business
1:13:12
model is an entertainment
1:13:14
It's on free speech. It's on all of these things
1:13:17
So what would I want to hold David Chappelle accountable for make me laugh and entertain me
1:13:27
Dive at me away from the daily drudge of my life
1:13:30
Netflix bring this be the platform who brings all of these different voices
1:13:36
And images and whatever it is that you do do that right. That's real accountability
1:13:43
Do you disagree?
1:13:45
No, I don't disagree, but I feel like I come from an old school
1:13:49
I feel like I'm the youngest person of the old generation of liberals and maybe it's because I've lived in the states and worked in the media that
1:13:57
I
1:13:59
interrupted because liberal liberalism again and those who understand the philosophy of liberalism and tile is to say
1:14:07
Help us remember what why liberalism as an ism came about where did it come from and what did it
1:14:17
Accomplish exactly and what we are going to see is
1:14:22
It is the only ism amongst all other isms
1:14:26
That has actually succeeded in providing human beings with the longest possible
1:14:33
life expectancy in the and again, these are
1:14:39
averages, right?
1:14:42
You know context of
1:14:46
not perfect, but
1:14:50
You know stability people
1:14:52
uh
1:14:54
In places where liberalism prevails don't have to worry about what they're going to eat next
1:15:01
their shelter law and order
1:15:03
um
1:15:05
Life expectancy and we've even gone to the place where we are conquering diseases, you know some of these are guys here in Silicon Valley
1:15:13
They are going after trying to make people live as long as 150 years old fantastic. I applauded that
1:15:20
But then what are we failing at we're failing at telling the younger generations
1:15:26
What the tradeoffs are and what it means you can't always have people think
1:15:33
Just like you do or read the books that you read or have the tastes that you have
1:15:40
But here's what we give you if you're if you're a true liberal
1:15:43
And I mean a liberal society a proper liberal government here. Here's the options. They give you
1:15:49
A ton of the television if you don't want to watch
1:15:52
There's so much on television that offense me these days. I don't turn it on
1:15:56
But I have that choice. It's called remote control
1:15:59
You don't want to listen to what David Chappelle has to say then don't listen to him
1:16:06
If you don't want to hear it's it's just rubbish
1:16:10
What a lot of these people are saying is
1:16:15
They want to live in bubbles
1:16:18
Where they control other people's bubbles
1:16:22
You know what whether you call it a bubble in a liberal society where you're wealthy enough to police David Chappelle
1:16:30
Or not it's pure tribalism. This is just going back. This is like literally the way when I was a child
1:16:36
that clan
1:16:39
Is different and they're awful and they're bad and they have no
1:16:44
Right to exist. Let's go and attack them. Let's bully their children. Let's take their property
1:16:49
Let's rape their women. Let's burn their that's it's tribalism
1:16:53
It's tribalism
1:16:55
shrouded in a new language the language of
1:16:59
liberalism and modernity
1:17:01
But it's tribalism nonetheless if you don't want to listen to David Chappelle don't listen to him
1:17:07
If you don't listen to him you don't flick that Netflix thing on you will not be offended
1:17:13
How about that?
1:17:14
I
1:17:16
I'd love to let's wrap up by whether or not you are optimistic or pessimistic about the fate of of Western
1:17:23
liberalism because I can depending on the day you pick me on I can either
1:17:28
believe in the resilience of enlightenment values and
1:17:32
and free speech or I can think that maybe they were a
1:17:37
A momentary blip that managed to succeed for a while but that ultimately the majority of people have never really been liberals
1:17:43
And have been much more interested in enforcing their own tribal
1:17:47
Instincts than in giving other people the benefit of the doubt
1:17:51
Where do you fall?
1:17:54
I think technically you are a millennial. Yeah, I think I'm the oldest millennial
1:18:02
Believe it or not that's that's bracing
1:18:05
Yeah, it's bracing so in in Western areas of optimism and pessimism
1:18:10
I would say for me the most optimistic scenario is if
1:18:15
Millennial leaders are able to convey
1:18:19
um
1:18:21
To the fellow generation what the value is of true liberalism and that then we're going to get into a conversation about institutions
1:18:30
schools
1:18:31
Family church corporations
1:18:34
If the prevailing norms for each of those institutions and then including government as well is truly liberal
1:18:41
I think you have a best case scenario
1:18:44
If we fail to convey and understand it's it's I understand it because I remember a time in my life when I wasn't free
1:18:54
And in fact when I became free in 2001 I was in the Netherlands and and these people
1:18:59
Decided okay, I said I'm no longer a Muslim and they reminded me why I was no longer a Muslim because they will now you deserve to die
1:19:06
And so then I'm surrounded by all this um
1:19:10
um guys and
1:19:12
Every time I would pinch myself and why do I have armed guys around? I don't lead a militia. I don't lead a government
1:19:21
I don't I'm not taking anybody's freedom away
1:19:24
So the only reason why I have people with weapons guarding me is because of my conscience
1:19:32
I couldn't believe it
1:19:34
But that boils down to liberalism and if you if you've been
1:19:38
Confronted with something like that you understand and appreciate
1:19:42
liberalism
1:19:43
This is the evil you can think what you want
1:19:47
As long as you don't harm others if your generation understands that and it gets that through the internet
1:19:54
Preserve the institutions that already have that sense and
1:19:59
Promote and advance that idea. I think things will be fine. You fail to do that. You'll become like frosting
1:20:06
Like Justin Trudeau whom you mentioned and you know what you'll be eaten or licked
1:20:11
But in any case you'll disappear very quickly
1:20:14
I am thank you for holding the torch aloft
1:20:18
The new book is prey immigration Islam and the erosion of women's rights
1:20:21
We didn't even really get to start to talk about it, but so interesting to hear your thoughts on everything else
1:20:26
Thank you for your time
1:20:34
Uncomfortable conversations is produced by Stefan Posthuma follow me Josh Zeps on Twitter and Instagram for all the latest
1:20:40
May your day be fruitful your mind humble your enemies generous and your conversations perfectly sparklingly
1:20:48
Delectably uncomfortable