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Lessons - How to Win Against Toxic People | Rebecca Zung - High-Conflict Negotiation Expert · Success Story with Scott Clary

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  In this lessons episode, explore how to negotiate effectively with narcissistic personalities
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  when traditional tactics fail. Discover why mindset and preparation determine leverage before
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  any conversation begins, understand how strategy and anticipation prevent manipulation and prolonged
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  conflict and uncover practical methods for protecting outcomes while ethically countering
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  aggressive behavior.
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  So what do you do when you're negotiating with the narcissist? How do you get the best possible
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  outcome? Just like from the ground up, starting from scratch, how do you approach that person?
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  Because I'm sure that negotiation, it's a lot more than just the actual conversation.
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  I'm sure there's steps to it too. Yeah. So slay is my methodology.
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  And slay stands for strategy, leverage, anticipating and focusing on you. And you have to work through
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  all of those steps or you're not going to get anywhere. And you know, I just literally was doing
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  a one on one with a client like a week ago. And she first started off with, well, I don't want
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  to be aggressive. And I thought, well, I mean, I literally said right to or well, then you're
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  totally going to be taken advantage of. You know, because when you're dealing with a narcissist,
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  the very first thing is that, you know, they they going back to what I said at the very beginning
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  of this, you have to understand the concept of narcissistic supply. It all goes back to that
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  concept of narcissistic supply. Everything revolves around understanding that they're in this world
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  of survival, this world of that. And so you have to you, you can't listen to a regular class
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  on negotiation that you're dealing with to normal people. And everybody is going to, you know,
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  come out with some fair outcome. That's not who you're dealing with when you're dealing with
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  a narcissist. You're dealing with the person who literally is in this world of survival.
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  So you have to understand that, you know, that this person is going to need to feel like
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  that they're that they're going to have to survive in order to have some sort of outcome with
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  this thing. And so you have to have a strategy around that. Number one, and number two,
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  you have to understand that you are dealing with a person who is in survival mode. So they are
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  going to be aggressive against you. I mean, you know, so you can't go, well, I don't want to be
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  aggressive because they are going to be aggressive. They're going to be. And so you have to have
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  an understanding about all of that. So, you know, you start off by going, okay, you know, first of all,
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  when you're dealing with a narcissist, it's either you're either for them or against them.
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  And when they realize that you're no longer for them, that means you're against them.
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  You can't just go, okay, hey, listen, this isn't working out. Let's just nicely come to a resolution.
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  Let's just, hey, I try to do that myself. By the way, when I was dealing with one in a business
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  situation, I was like, we're going to go in different directions. And, you know, let's just come to a
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  nice conclusion here. And it doesn't, they don't, their mind does not work that way. You're either
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  for them or against them. And if you're against them, then you're public enemy number one. And
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  that means that they have to start lining up all their flying monkeys. And they've got to have
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  their army on their side. And it's got to be against you. And, you know, like this is how they think.
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  And they've got to take you down before they're going to take, you're going to take them down.
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  And so all of that's going to start happening right away. And you're just, if you think,
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  oh, it's all going to be nicey nice, you're just like naked over there. Because, and by the way,
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  if you, if you start off with giving all kinds of stuff early on, and they're going to see
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  how nice you are, because you gave up all this stuff at the beginning, they don't care. They'll
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  just take all of that. And that just is in the wind. It's taken and gone. So don't give up a whole
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  bunch of stuff at the beginning. That's like just leverage. Don't assume you're going to win them over.
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  Don't assume that's going to gain you any favor. It's not, it's just, it's naive. So if you've
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  identified this person, you got to, you got to get your mind right. So you got to go into the
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  situation. It will be combative, I guess, situation. It's like it isn't us versus them. You
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  versus them, which is unfortunate, but it's not like the normal person. You mentioned before it.
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  Okay. Okay. So you have your mindset proper. What's the next step in this negotiation?
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  So you create a strategy. And the first thing you have to do is have a vision as to where you
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  want to go. And so many times people are like, oh, they're focusing on is the other person's
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  bad behavior. Look what they did. Look what they did. And they did that. And they did this. And they
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  did this. And they did that. And I want people to understand that that is just a defense, defense,
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  defense, defense defense. And I always say the best football teams, if all you have is a good
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  defense, no one's going any points. You have to have a good offense as well. So figure out where
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  it is that you want to go. What's your outcome? So okay, where's your vision? And then create
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  steps on how you're going to get there. That's your strategy. All right. So vision steps on how
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  you're going to get there. So that's your strategy. Next is leverage. What is your leverage?
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  Leverage is kind of two parts. First of all, what is the diamond source of supply that is
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  really, really matters to this narcissist? What is the thing that they, you know, what matters most
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  to them as far as how they look? Okay, because for every narcissist, there's this thing that
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  matters the most to them as far as how they look. How they perceive, like physical or just how
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  they perceive. Like who, you know, is it their new source of supply? Is it their employees? Is
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  it their, you know, what world do they live in that they don't want to be exposed to? You know,
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  is it, you know, for example, I had a guy that I represented who was a CEO of a fortune 10 company
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  and he had been married a long time. He had a pension for, you know, hiring a very high end
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  as courts. He ended up getting her piece. He ended up giving it to his, his wife. She didn't even
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  know that he had been ever cheating ever until she ended up going to the OBGYN because she had,
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  she didn't know why she was like developing sores and all the sudden here she has her piece.
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  How did I get her piece when I've never cheated on my husband? And so now all the sudden, you know,
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  she's got this major leverage against him because by the way, I can tell the world that,
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  you know, look at what you did. That's a huge source of leverage. Like she does not, he did not want
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  the world to know about that, right? So that's something that she could potentially, you know,
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  have filed a civil battery action against him. I mean, she could have filed something in the courts
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  that said, hey, I want, you know, extra damages for pain and suffering. I want, you know, these
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  were things that he could have potentially been exposed about, right? And instead of doing that,
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  she said, hey, I could do this, but instead of doing this, I want you to just pay me,
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  you know, this amount of money and, you know, we'll do this quietly. And so that was a way that she
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  could kind of use her leverage against the diamond level supply. You understand what I mean by that?
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  I do. It's, it's, it's an uncomfortable thought because it's so aggressive, right? Like it's
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  uncomfortable to think about having to find that piece of leverage against somebody because for most
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  people, no one goes out of their way to try and hurt somebody like at that level, right? Like
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  that's like, that's an incredible exposure. So you're saying that this is what you mean when you say
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  mindset and you say, be prepared to be aggressive, you're not negotiating with normal people. So you
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  have to come, you know, come to the table with extra ammo. Well, I call it ethically manipulating
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  the manipulator. You have to look to see what is a source of supply that's going to be more
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  important for them to keep, protect or maintain that is going to be, you know, more important for
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  them to protect than the supply that they get from jerking you around. Yeah. Because that, that
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  coal level supply, which is jerking you around, they're going to want to keep that too. And that's
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  why those cases never settle because they also enjoy jerking you around. And, and they, you know,
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  so part of the jerking you around process is constantly moving the goalposts using the court
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  system as a sword, not giving you the documents, filing unnecessary pleadings, you know, so they
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  they drag you through the, the mud in the court system because they get supply from doing that.
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  And so as long as they can continuously get supply from manipulating you in the court system,
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  they will do that. And that's a source of coal level supply for them. And so if you don't want those
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  cases to last three, four, and five years, and you spend two, three, four hundred thousand dollars
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  in, in attorneys fees, the only way you're going to be able to put an end to that is to find a source
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  of diamond level supply, move it. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Next one is anticipating. So
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  in the slave formula, you're talking about anticipating anticipating what exactly because it seems like
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  with leverage, you're already anticipating that they're going to act a certain way. So what else could
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  you be anticipating in that particular negotiation? Well, I mean, you're anticipating throughout the
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  entire case, right? So, you know, anticipating how they're going to behave, anticipating
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  what they're going to be doing, you know, you want to be two steps ahead of them throughout the
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  entire case. And, and, and, you know, part of that also is going to be, you know, using,
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  and understanding how they think and their mindset, you know, sometimes I tell people to use
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  something that I call bartering, which is, you know, understanding that they need a certain amount
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  of adulation. So if you want to get them to do something for you, go ahead and give them a certain
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  amount of adulation. Hey, you know, can you, you know, you know, if it's a business situation,
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  you know, can you work on the QuickBooks today? You're so much better at it than I am. You're
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  way faster at the program. You know, you know, you know, the program so much better than I do. It'll
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  be done so much, you know, more efficiently if you do it than if I do it, you know, something like
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  that. You know, if, if you want them to do something for you, be prepared to give them some
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  adulation in, in return, you know, use it to your advantage sometimes. Thanks for tuning in.
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  episode. And if you want to dive deeper into this conversation, check out the links in the
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  description to watch the full episode. See you in the next one.