Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Dr. Jeff Ross | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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Dr. Jeff Ross | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

• 0:00
  I won't be surprised if it goes anywhere between 200 and a
• 0:03
  million. It could even pop over a million
• 0:04
  for a little bit. But I, but I think 475 K for me
• 0:07
  is kind of the most likely target.
• 0:09
  I also have Q4 of 2025 as my target.
• 0:13
  It could extend beyond that based on what I'm seeing, but
• 0:16
  I'm kind of just sticking with, these are the predictions I've
• 0:19
  made for the last two years and I'm, I'm sticking with that 475K
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  in Q4 of 2025. And then the other point, what I
• 0:27
  wanted to say is these people that are calling for, we've
• 0:29
  already hit our peak and that we're going to roll over.
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  There are a lot of people and for whatever reason, they're,
• 0:34
  they're Gen. X economists and traders.
• 0:37
  And I'm Gen. XI can say this, I'm right in
• 0:39
  the middle of Gen. X.
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  They are freaking people out saying we are at this historical
• 0:44
  peak like 1929 or 1999 and we are at the cusp of a massive,
• 0:50
  massive recession and we're going to have a deflationary
• 0:53
  bust and stocks and Bitcoin are going to absolutely crash and
• 0:57
  get demolished. And so is oil like literally
• 1:00
  worse than 1929. There are multiple people
• 1:02
  talking about this. I think they're wrong.
• 1:04
  I, I, I look at that, you know, I study macro.
• 1:06
  I run a macro hedge fund. It's a multi strategy macro
• 1:08
  fund. I couldn't disagree more.
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  We're all looking at the same data.
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  I think that we are just at the early stages of a new economic
• 1:16
  cycle. Doctor Ross, hello.
• 1:22
  How you been? I don't think, I don't think
• 1:24
  you've been on the show for a couple of months now.
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  A couple of months in Bitcoin terms is like years.
• 1:31
  So welcome back, you know, and and and that we were talking
• 1:35
  about this before we went on air.
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  I do miss you on I do miss you on Twitter.
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  You know, I I do, I do you. You had some amazing takes and
• 1:42
  you've gone Noster only these days.
• 1:44
  You're kind, Nico. Thanks for having me on your
• 1:46
  show. I have missed you and your show
• 1:49
  and I do miss you on Twitter. I, I, I'll just reiterate what
• 1:52
  we're talking about earlier is I knew my Twitter account, I think
• 1:55
  in September and it's been awesome in general.
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  My stress level immediately went way down.
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  But I do miss the interaction with my friends on Twitter.
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  So that's, that's been tough And I I was hoping there'd be more
• 2:09
  of a wave of people coming over to nostril only, but it's been
• 2:13
  fun. It's been fun to watch it grow.
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  I will say that the experience now on Noster using different
• 2:19
  clients, I, I use a primal now is way better than it was a year
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  ago and even way better than it was six months ago.
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  So, so it's been great. But yes, I do Missy, thanks for
• 2:29
  having me back on your show. I've been pretty reclusive and
• 2:31
  that's been on purpose for the last probably 6 to 12 months or
• 2:36
  so. I don't get out much and but but
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  I said if I'm if I come out of hiding, I'm gonna come on your
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  show because I really appreciate you and all the work you do for
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  Bitcoin. I appreciate it, Doctor Ross,
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  and again, it's it's an honor to have you back.
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  Now, one of the things that I did 'cause I, I do hang out on,
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  I do hang out on nosters, especially since we went through
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  kind of like a deplatforming scare.
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  And that's really when it all snapped in my mind.
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  I was like, OK, you know, it's probably a good idea to even if
• 3:04
  the volume isn't there, like, you know, really help support
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  this, this protocol. And, and I, and I'm a huge fan
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  of Primal. We actually had the CEO on
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  today's show earlier on today and we were talking about the
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  two point O update, which I think is really, really cool.
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  So anyways, I, I did see one of the posts that you posted and I
• 3:25
  do want to talk about that because I think in Bitcoin
• 3:28
  terms, we, we all experienced, you know, and you were around
• 3:33
  during this time, Doctor Ross, like the 2021 bull market.
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  And I think a lot of people had their, they didn't meet the bull
• 3:41
  market, didn't meet expectations.
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  And I, when I'm seeing this bull market is people still have a
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  lot of PTSD from that time, but I'm seeing the price at 106,000.
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  And historically the year after the halving is the year of the
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  parabola, less than 100%. We're at 200 K.
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  And it seems like you're one of the only people that is feeling
• 4:06
  as bullish as I am because recently, I don't know where you
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  said this, but I saw that you were talking about a $475,000
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  Bitcoin in 2025. So could you walk us through a
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  little bit of your thought process on this?
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  Sure. So let let me back up.
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  I'll, I'll try to hit on the points you're talking about.
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  So 2021, I still maintain was a fluke.
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  I think it was an anomaly. I think that we were going to
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  have a major exponential move higher like like it does, like
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  Bitcoin traditionally has done. And then out of left field, a
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  Black Swan event. China banned Bitcoin mining and
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  said you have leave our country and it and it was like legit.
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  It wasn't like, oh, we're thinking about, you know,
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  banning it like we have in the past.
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  And it was legit. And so 50% of the hash rate
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  disappeared in about a month. And I know you were there and I
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  was there and it was crazy. And it literally just took all
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  the air out of the room. I wiped it out.
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  It was rough. On top of that liquidity, which
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  is another thing I follow, the liquidity cycle was already
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  starting to peak at that time. So, OK, so those two things
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  happened. As we remember, Bitcoin went way
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  down in the summer of 2021. And then it tried to make this,
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  you know, really, you know, admirable comeback again.
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  And it did get back up to new highs, whatever, 69 K somewhere
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  around there. But I maintain that that was an
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  anomaly. I maintain that if that wouldn't
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  have happened, if China wouldn't have done what it did, probably
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  also if SPF and all those frauds wouldn't have happened as well
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  that were fooling people into thinking they were actually
• 5:36
  buying Bitcoin. But they got, they got smoked
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  and they were not. If that hadn't happened, I think
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  the price of Bitcoin would have been about 125 K back in 2021.
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  So then we went through that bear market.
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  The bear market was exceedingly painful and it got, and it was
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  just horrible at the end, right when all those centralized
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  exchanges went bust and and all the Bitcoin just went on to the
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  market, smashed the prices, everything went down.
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  So that was tough. That was all, I think a very
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  unusual a couple of years for Bitcoin.
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  I think now we're back on a more normal schedule.
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  I think that Bitcoin is going to surprise many people this time
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  around. I hear, you know, first of all,
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  there's this, you know, the power laws floating around
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  there. I'm actually a fan in general of
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  the power law, but the dude who prescribes it and talks about it
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  all the time, Giovanni, who I I think is great.
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  You know, we, we have personality differences, but I
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  think he's a nice guy and it's fine.
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  He really is pushing the theory that we have diminishing peaks
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  going forward. And there are other people that
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  talk about that as well. And I think a lot of people are
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  getting fooled by that. I, I see people on Twitter at,
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  you know, even over on Oster, we get little Twitter screenshots
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  of people talking about how the peak is already in don't buy it
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  at 100K. That's it.
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  We're done with this cycle. I could not disagree more.
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  I think those people are crazy. I think they don't know what
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  they're talking about. Not by the way, not Giovanni.
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  I'm saying the people who are calling for this 100K peak right
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  about now and that we're heading into a recession.
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  So there's a couple different schools of thoughts.
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  We'll talk about both of them. I'll talk about the recession
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  second. So first, do we have diminishing
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  peaks? It was a diminishing peak in
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  2021, but I maintain that that was a fluke.
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  So I'm so I think that people who think that we're going to
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  have this lower peak of, I think they're saying kind of 200 K,
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  maybe 150 to 250 K somewhere in there.
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  My guess is they're going to sell at 200 to 250 K and they're
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  going to think they're right for maybe a month and then it's
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  going to just take off again and go higher.
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  So my, my, I'm saying it could be 475.
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  Look, I don't know, right? I have no insight into what it's
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  going to be. I just think that that's kind of
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  about where it would be if 20/21 had been in a kind of a straight
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  line for its peak compared to 2017 and compared to 2013.
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  My range is actually very similar to Jack Mahler's.
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  I heard him talking the other day.
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  He has exactly the same range as I do, which is 200,000 to
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  1,000,000. People think you can't have
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  these kind of ranges, but I'm like, this is Bitcoin, right?
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  Bitcoin is crazy. It's super volatile.
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  I could, I won't be surprised if it goes anywhere between 200 and
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  a million. It could even pop over a million
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  for a little bit, but I, but I think 475 K for me is kind of
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  the most likely target. I also have Q4 of 2025 as my
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  target. It could extend beyond that
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  based on what I'm saying, but I'm kind of just sticking with,
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  these are the predictions I've made for the last two years and
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  I'm, I'm sticking with that 475 K in Q4 of 2025.
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  And then the other point, what I want to say is these people that
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  are calling for, we've already hit our peak and that we're
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  going to roll over. There are a lot of people and
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  for whatever reason, they're usually they're Gen.
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  X economists and traders and I'm Gen.
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  X. So I can say this, I'm right in
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  the middle of Gen. X.
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  They are freaking people out saying we are at this historical
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  peak like 1929 or 1999 and we are at the cusp of a massive,
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  massive recession and we're going to have a deflationary
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  bust and stocks and Bitcoin are going to absolutely crash and
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  get demolished. And so is oil like literally
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  worse than 1929. There are multiple people
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  talking about this. I think they're wrong.
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  I, I, I look at that, you know, I study macro.
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  I run a macro hedge fund. It's a multi strategy macro
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  fund. I couldn't disagree more.
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  We're all looking at the same data.
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  I think that we are just at the early stages of a new economic
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  cycle. It's actually grinding and we
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  can get into all this if we want to or we don't have to talk
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  about any of this. But I think we're early stages
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  and that the economy is going to be actually quite good
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  throughout 2025. It's leaving me very optimistic.
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  So come in full circle to what you're talking about.
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  I am optimistic like you are. I think that 2025 is going to be
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  a good year for the, as far as the price is concerned.
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  I just like to remind people even when we're in a bull market
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  and I officially declared that I switched from bull crab to to to
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  full bull. I said around Michael Jackson's
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  birthday. So the end of August of 2024,
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  that's when I switched over and, and I, and I haven't looked back
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  since then. I think the price was like
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  53,000 or something back at the time.
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  During bull markets, it's super normal to have 20 to 30% pull
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  backs. That's just part of the game.
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  So if we do have these big run run up run UPS, what I like to
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  tell people is just imagine if the price was 30% lower a week
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  from today, how would you feel? You know, so, so keep those kind
• 10:16
  of things in mind. If we go up to say whatever
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  120,000 here in the next couple of weeks, which is kind of my
• 10:23
  short term target for the end of December, I wouldn't be
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  surprised if we dropped down to like maybe 85 or 80,000 or even
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  75,000 or so and then we kind of start taking off again.
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  So just kind of prepare yourself mentally for those pull backs.
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  It doesn't mean it's over. It doesn't mean the naysayers
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  are right. The recession uses weren't
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  correct. It's just a normal, typical bull
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  market pull back. Absolutely.
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  And and you know, as long as you've, you've been in Bitcoin,
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  it's, there's something about the human brain and human nature
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  that's like, you know, it's very difficult.
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  It's like when number goes up, you want a FOMO.
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  When number goes down, you know, you're like, Oh my God, you
• 11:01
  know, and then eventually kind of reaches that capitulation
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  phase. Now, what's really interesting
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  to me, Doctor Ross, is what you were just talking about.
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  You're the only person that agrees with the China mining ban
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  because I've been saying that for like a couple of years and
• 11:17
  I've been getting so, but like you see the hash rate and the
• 11:20
  price and it's a direct correlation.
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  Like you see the hash rate dropping, the price follows 50%.
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  Those miners had to sell. Then the miners have a lot of
• 11:31
  the Bitcoin they had to sell to relocate to a more favorable
• 11:33
  jurisdiction. You see the hash rate recover,
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  price recovers with it, right? And then they had that like the
• 11:39
  glorious, you know, like trying to make it up, but it, it, it
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  seems like it was almost on purpose to take the steam out of
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  it. And in regard to the the next
• 11:49
  cycle, what why I believe you're right and I agree with you is
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  that Bitcoin tends to do the exact opposite of what everyone
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  expects. And the general consensus this
• 12:00
  cycle is 150K200K. That is what I'm seeing
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  everywhere. The power line again, Giovanni's
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  a great guy, you know, Fred Krueger, great.
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  I love their work, right. But that is the general
• 12:13
  consensus on Bitcoin Twitter right now.
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  And as you said, Bitcoin does the exact opposite of what
• 12:21
  everyone expects, right? So yes, I, I, I'm, I would be
• 12:25
  extremely surprised if we only did 100% because 100% takes us
• 12:32
  at 200 to 200 K next year. So I'd be extremely surprised.
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  And then, and if you're right about the 120 by the end of the
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  year, and I'm, I'm feeling that way as well, you know, it's less
• 12:42
  than 100% just to get to 200 K. So and, and that's, and if you
• 12:47
  look at Bitcoin's historical patterns, it, it, there's, it's
• 12:51
  never broken this, but for some reason people always think it's
• 12:54
  sometime is different, which is the year after the halving year
• 12:58
  is the parabola year. And at this time, it's like, no,
• 13:01
  that can't happen. And the reason that I think that
• 13:04
  is, is because of everyone has PTSD from 2021.
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  And if people forgot what a, what a real party was in 2017,
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  it's been 7 years, almost eight years since we've had that level
• 13:18
  of excitement, that level of euphoria.
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  So yeah, I, I completely agree with you.
• 13:24
  And it's interesting because that's not the general
• 13:27
  consensus. A lot of people are are saying
• 13:29
  that's the opposite. Now you said something there was
• 13:32
  really interesting and I and I want to dive deep into that,
• 13:35
  which is the general kind of macro trends that you're seeing
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  and you're seeing that they're very favorable heading into
• 13:42
  2025. That's something else.
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  This is the first time I'm hearing that type of stuff.
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  So what are you seeing that everyone else isn't seeing?
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  What? What or what are you seeing that
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  interests you? Man, I just look at so much data
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  and all of the data I look at is great.
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  So that. So first of all, one thing is
• 14:01
  not good. US manufacturing has been in the
• 14:04
  dumps. It's been in contraction or
• 14:06
  recession mode, meaning a level below 50 on the ISM, it's these
• 14:11
  scales that we use. If it's above 50, it's
• 14:13
  considered it. It, it's increasing, it's
• 14:16
  advancing. If it's below 50, it's in a
• 14:18
  contraction or it's in a recession.
• 14:21
  So US manufacturing has been stuck in this weak sauce zone
• 14:26
  for about two to 2 1/2 years, and it's rough.
• 14:28
  So if you're, you're in the, you know, manufacturing industry in
• 14:31
  America, things have been tough. I, I grant that to everybody.
• 14:36
  So, but why does it not matter that much?
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  Because the services sector is such a huge part of the American
• 14:43
  GDP. So the economy in America is run
• 14:45
  on the services sector, not manufacturing.
• 14:48
  It's like a 2 to one ratio, even a little bit more than a 2 to
• 14:51
  one ratio. So, you know, not that I, I, I
• 14:54
  feel bad for people who are in these sectors, but it doesn't
• 14:57
  drive the economy. What drives the economy is
• 14:59
  services. Services is killing it with the
• 15:01
  numbers just came out again this morning and I don't have them on
• 15:04
  me, but I think it was 58 or 59 or so.
• 15:07
  So expansion, they're just expanding like crazy, doing very
• 15:10
  well. And overall the Composite Index
• 15:13
  is getting pulled up very solidly because of services.
• 15:16
  So manufacturing is weak, but it's only manufacturing housing,
• 15:20
  which everybody talks about that, you know, and I was one of
• 15:23
  them in 2022. I thought the housing market was
• 15:25
  going to collapse because of what was happening with rates
• 15:28
  and all and the economy slowing down and all this kind of stuff.
• 15:30
  I thought in 2022 that we were headed into a recession.
• 15:34
  And I do believe that it's fiscal spending that that saved
• 15:37
  us from going into a major recession at the time.
• 15:41
  Housing people continue to say looks like looks ugly, it is
• 15:46
  weak, but it's starting to improve.
• 15:48
  OK. So that's one that's a major
• 15:49
  driver of the of the economy. You can look at new orders which
• 15:53
  are forward-looking indicators. So if you talk to people who own
• 15:56
  businesses are orders in the future for the coming three to
• 16:00
  six months, are they looking up or are they down or are they
• 16:03
  about flat? Almost all of those indices are
• 16:05
  kind of off the charts going up. So that what does that mean?
• 16:09
  That means that looking into the future forward leading forward
• 16:12
  indicators, businesses should start to improve.
• 16:15
  I think we'll see manufacturing, especially with the new Trump
• 16:18
  administration coming in who's very pro manufacturing, very pro
• 16:21
  bring it back to the United States where that which I think
• 16:23
  is awesome. I think three to six months from
• 16:26
  now, US manufacturing will be doing extremely well.
• 16:30
  And we'll we'll be, you know, looking back and like, oh, what
• 16:32
  a relief. Can you believe we thought we
• 16:33
  were going into recession? Now look at how strong the
• 16:35
  economy it looks today, profits people are talking about.
• 16:39
  So, so I follow a lot of value investors.
• 16:41
  I used to kind of live in the value investing community.
• 16:44
  They're talking about these very stretched multiples.
• 16:47
  So the price to earnings ratios, price to sales ratios are kind
• 16:51
  of getting very high. And they'll show charts about
• 16:53
  how it looks like 1929 looks like 1999, those kind of things.
• 16:57
  They're right. But what they're missing once
• 16:59
  again is that if you have a growing economy, what happens is
• 17:03
  then those earnings start to increase, the denominator starts
• 17:06
  to increase, and it shrinks those values.
• 17:08
  So the companies grow into those expanded valuations.
• 17:12
  So when I look at all of those things and then multiple other
• 17:14
  factors, all I see is we have liquidity that's starting to
• 17:18
  increase again. Global M2, which had been on the
• 17:23
  decline throughout all of 2022, basically bottomed in Q4 of
• 17:26
  2022. It's been going higher.
• 17:28
  A lot of people come come back at me and say, but in the last
• 17:31
  couple of months it it's been going down.
• 17:34
  What what's happening? Is it over?
• 17:36
  Have we peaked? It's only because the dollar has
• 17:38
  been so strong. So we've had a huge burst higher
• 17:41
  in the dollar basically since I think the end of October or or
• 17:44
  so until now, maybe even the beginning of October.
• 17:47
  Somewhere in that time frame. This exact same thing happened
• 17:50
  the last time Trump was elected. It, it, it's creates this
• 17:53
  strength and this optimism and, and the dollar ripped higher to
• 17:57
  the end of December, early January, peaked and then rolled
• 18:00
  over and basically fell all throughout 2017.
• 18:03
  I expect pretty much the exact same thing to happen where the
• 18:06
  dollar quits being the dollar Wrecking Ball, it rolls over, it
• 18:09
  kind of decreases throughout the rest of 2017.
• 18:12
  Why is that important? Because the dollar really
• 18:14
  effects all other countries. So all other countries who have
• 18:18
  priced their debt or their goods and services in dollar terms, it
• 18:21
  hurts them when the dollar is strong, when the dollar weakens,
• 18:25
  their own currency strengthens. It makes it easier for them to
• 18:28
  pay back debt. It makes it easier on their
• 18:30
  economy. They can sell more goods.
• 18:34
  It's easier for for them to run their economies and and it's
• 18:39
  basically just net good for the world when the dollar is
• 18:42
  weakening, when banks, when economies are doing well, banks
• 18:46
  start lending. When they lend, they're creating
• 18:48
  new monetary supply that increases global M2.
• 18:51
  And that as the global M2 starts to increase, it finds its way
• 18:54
  into more further out on the risk curve into stocks and
• 18:57
  especially into Bitcoin, which is the great absorber of
• 19:00
  liquidity. So lots of reasons there.
• 19:02
  But everything I look at, and I'm not even trying to be snarky
• 19:05
  about this, I see people talking about, I like, I can't believe
• 19:07
  we're looking at the same in data and you have a negative
• 19:09
  picture with what's going on. Most of them are valuations
• 19:12
  based or technicals based, or they're more focused on what's
• 19:16
  happening outside of the US because they're true.
• 19:18
  It's true that the EU looks really rough right now.
• 19:22
  It's very stagflationary and China looks very stagflationary
• 19:27
  right now, meaning a stagnant economy but higher inflation.
• 19:30
  the US, however, is not in that picture.
• 19:32
  And as the global growth engine, which the United States is, and
• 19:35
  I expect it to be even more powerfully with this in next
• 19:38
  administration, we are going to lead the world out of this
• 19:41
  stagflationary condition and into growth again.
• 19:44
  And that's very bullish for risk assets and especially for
• 19:47
  Bitcoin. And that, that, that is
• 19:49
  extremely exciting, Doctor Ross. And you know what I'll say about
• 19:53
  that? Is it it, you know, I might not
• 19:59
  be able to, to describe it the way that, that you're seeing it
• 20:03
  because you, you, you have this experience with your background
• 20:06
  and you're, you're seeing all, you know, all this data points.
• 20:09
  But I see the vibes, I feel the vibes.
• 20:11
  I see the hope in people. Yo, I want to tell you about the
• 20:16
  best place to build your automatic self custody Bitcoin
• 20:20
  stack. I'm talking about
• 20:21
  bitcoinwell.com. What makes bitcoinwell.com
• 20:25
  different is that it's a completely non custodial
• 20:28
  platform, meaning as soon as you buy Bitcoin and the funds clear,
• 20:33
  it goes straight to yourself. Custody Bitcoin wallet address
• 20:37
  and that perfectly aligns with simply Bitcoin ethos of the
• 20:39
  separation of money and state support Bitcoin on ramps that
• 20:43
  are self custody by default. To get started, go to
• 20:46
  bitcoinwell.com today. Takes 2 to 5 minutes to sign up
• 20:51
  and bada Bing, bada boom, you're ready to buy Bitcoin.
• 20:54
  And it's extremely exciting. And, and especially because of
• 20:58
  this, this change in, in tuning and Doctor Ross, I don't think
• 21:02
  we've spoken since this has happened, but you know, the
• 21:05
  tremendous amount of institutional, not only
• 21:09
  institutional adoption, but institutional acceptance of
• 21:13
  Bitcoin. And you're hearing left and
• 21:15
  right of, of traditionally very conservative companies that
• 21:21
  perhaps they don't have exposure to direct spot Bitcoin, but you
• 21:26
  hear that they have exposure to Bitcoin via the ETFs or via
• 21:31
  MicroStrategy, which is essentially like a Bitcoin fund
• 21:35
  at this point, the way that the stock is behaving.
• 21:37
  So, you know, it's a would it be safe to say that this is a new
• 21:42
  chapter in Bitcoins history? And what's really exciting too
• 21:46
  is all of this is happening and we're heading into 2025 where
• 21:51
  you're making the case that the macro environment looks very
• 21:53
  positive. The regulatory environment
• 21:56
  specifically for Bitcoin looks very positive.
• 22:00
  And then again, you know, the, this is a change, this is a,
• 22:04
  this is a change, not only institutional option, but the
• 22:07
  nation state adoption as well. And what I've noticed, you know,
• 22:11
  the last three or four months, it's absolutely hilarious.
• 22:14
  You have, you know, the president of Russia, Putin
• 22:16
  basically saying we can't ban it.
• 22:18
  Then a a day later news comes out that the, the Duma, which is
• 22:21
  the equivalent of the House of Representatives here in the
• 22:23
  United States, they're introducing a bill to make a
• 22:26
  Bitcoin strategic reserve. Brazil, a politician is
• 22:28
  introducing a bill to make Bitcoin strategic reserve.
• 22:31
  There's this this video going viral about this French
• 22:33
  politician making this speech at the European Parliament
• 22:36
  basically saying like, look, we have to take a look at this
• 22:39
  Bitcoin thing. We made fun of El Salvador, the
• 22:41
  IMF made fun of El Salvador, but this guy's like showing off on
• 22:45
  Twitter and he made hundreds of millions of dollars off this
• 22:47
  trade Like what what's going on here?
• 22:50
  So it's a vibe shift. The macro situation is, is is
• 22:54
  amazing, but I want to get your take on the and and this is this
• 22:59
  is, this is up your alley, Doctor Ross, right.
• 23:01
  The Could you ever have imagined back in 2017 the change in tune
• 23:07
  from the legacy financial institutions?
• 23:12
  I hate to be this guy, but yes, we've been talking, well,
• 23:16
  because we've been talking about this.
• 23:18
  This is inevitable. Like, right, We knew this was
• 23:20
  going to happen. What I will say is surprising is
• 23:23
  how quickly it's happened and how quickly, to your point, all
• 23:26
  of these things have suddenly shifted.
• 23:27
  And it seems like suddenly like it went from super dark and
• 23:30
  negative and like Elizabeth Warren is treating us all like
• 23:33
  we're criminals and we're all getting shadow banked and shadow
• 23:35
  banned, You know, Operation Choke, .2 Point, all that kind
• 23:38
  of stuff. And then suddenly like it's just
• 23:40
  gone. And like to your point, there's
• 23:43
  all these favorable conditions now for the first time.
• 23:45
  So it's always been inevitable, right?
• 23:48
  I've I used to go on Cafe Bitcoin and all these things all
• 23:51
  the time and talk about how Wall Street is coming like that's
• 23:53
  just a natural progression of Bitcoin.
• 23:55
  And what we need to do as Bitcoiners is protect the soul
• 23:58
  of Bitcoin. We need to make sure it doesn't
• 24:00
  get consumed by Wall Street and taken over by Wall Street and
• 24:03
  Wall Street will try and people are fighting against it right.
• 24:07
  And we got to make sure that we don't get so enamored with
• 24:10
  number go up that we that we've lose what's important with
• 24:14
  Bitcoin. We got to still keep this.
• 24:16
  So we got to remember that this is actually an alternative to
• 24:19
  the US dollar and the Fiat government Fiat currency system,
• 24:23
  right? And so keep building out these
• 24:26
  other things, keep building out layer 2 and layer 3 so we can
• 24:29
  use it as a totally alternative financial system and actually
• 24:32
  get away. I'm of the theory, and this is
• 24:34
  another quote that people think I'm crazy when I say this
• 24:38
  Bitcoin is too powerful for Wall Street and it, and I actually
• 24:41
  believe that it will consume Wall Street from the inside out.
• 24:44
  And people think that's crazy. I'm saying within 10 to 20
• 24:48
  years, it's going to outgrow Wall Street and basically bust
• 24:51
  out of, of, of Wall Street and Wall Street will eventually bend
• 24:55
  the knee to Bitcoin. And it's almost hard to believe
• 24:59
  right now. It's kind of like I said two or
• 25:01
  three years ago that I think MicroStrategy is going to be the
• 25:03
  largest company by market cap by the year 2033 or 2034.
• 25:08
  I still think that's very possible.
• 25:09
  And people just laughed at me and mocked.
• 25:11
  I'm like, just wait, like you don't understand like how crazy
• 25:14
  this is. And if you can do speculative
• 25:15
  arbitrage by borrowing dollars and buying Bitcoin with that and
• 25:19
  just growing and growing and growing and then plus have being
• 25:22
  riding the tails of the exponential growth of the
• 25:25
  Bitcoin monetary network, the the upside is almost limitless,
• 25:29
  especially when you compare it to limit limitless Fiat currency
• 25:32
  creation. So I think it's all inevitable.
• 25:35
  I think it's coming. I think that every company that
• 25:38
  doesn't have Bitcoin on its balance sheet or a Bitcoin
• 25:41
  reserve strategy will go to zero over time relative to Bitcoin.
• 25:45
  So it's like if you want to survive in the next 10 to 20
• 25:48
  years, you have to switch over. To me, it's very basic and, and
• 25:51
  again, nobody understands that so many people on on in old Wall
• 25:55
  Street, they think of Bitcoin as a technology stock instead of
• 25:59
  what it really is, which is just better money.
• 26:03
  Excuse me? So why is that important?
• 26:07
  It's because if you don't get onto this system, the rest of
• 26:13
  your business trends to 0 over time against Bitcoin.
• 26:17
  They businesses cannot keep up with the annualized rate of
• 26:21
  return of Bitcoin. They, they can't exist on this
• 26:23
  Fiat system that's collapsing all around us.
• 26:26
  They have to get on board. And so the longer they delay
• 26:29
  that situation and whether you're an individual or a family
• 26:32
  or a pension or an endowment or a church or a small business or
• 26:35
  a large business or a nation state, it's the same for
• 26:39
  everyone. And the sooner, and I know you
• 26:40
  talk about this all the time on your show, but it's the game
• 26:44
  theory at play. The longer it takes you to get
• 26:45
  on board, the further behind you're going to be in this new
• 26:48
  world. And why is this like why is
• 26:52
  that? It's because Bitcoin isn't just
• 26:54
  this like cool little thing like this, this neat little tech
• 26:57
  stock. It's literally a new monetary
• 27:01
  technology that's a change the world technology on par with,
• 27:06
  we've talked about this, the wheel, fire, electricity, indoor
• 27:10
  plumbing, railroads, the automobile, airplanes, personal
• 27:15
  computers, the Internet, right? This is the Internet of value.
• 27:18
  And so it's not like it's this cool little side asset.
• 27:22
  It's literally this new invention.
• 27:24
  It's kind of like if it was the year 1950 and you were a
• 27:28
  business and you're still trying to run your business without
• 27:31
  electricity. Like you, you have to comply to
• 27:34
  the way the world is shifting and changing or, or if you're in
• 27:37
  the year 2024 and you don't have an Internet strategy for your
• 27:40
  business, it's just ludicrous to think about.
• 27:42
  But I'm old enough to remember there were businesses that were
• 27:45
  actively fighting and mocking the Internet back in the 90s and
• 27:49
  the early 2000s. I used to, again, as a value
• 27:51
  investor, people used to just literally mock Netflix.
• 27:55
  They would and talk about how awesome Blockbuster is.
• 27:57
  They would literally mock Amazon and, and talk about how awesome
• 28:01
  Walmart is and how Amazon will never even come close to being
• 28:04
  the same size as as Walmart. And now look at, you know,
• 28:07
  Amazon has multitudes, yeah, multiples larger than than
• 28:11
  Walmart. So just like you had to get that
• 28:14
  sort of Internet strategy, you now have to have a Bitcoin
• 28:18
  strategy, a new monetary Technology Strategy or you will
• 28:21
  become obsolete. It's just what it is.
• 28:23
  And I think that's inevitable. And so even though people think
• 28:26
  I'm crazy, 510 years from now, we'll be talking about that and
• 28:29
  they'll ask me long, did you ever see it coming?
• 28:31
  I'm like, yes, it's it's it's going to come.
• 28:34
  It has to come because it's clearly better money.
• 28:37
  It's a better monetary network for the world.
• 28:39
  And if you're not on board with it, you're going to become
• 28:41
  obsolete. 100% and I mean it, it, it's what's fascinating to
• 28:46
  me about this year is how Sailor is proving that on Wall Street,
• 28:53
  you know, best performing stock of the year up, I think almost
• 28:57
  500 percent or a little bit shy of that.
• 29:00
  And 9 Bukela is proving that on the nation state level.
• 29:04
  Now, Doctor Ross, what I want to ask you about, which is the the
• 29:08
  Sailor strategy is fascinating. Like how is he able to do this?
• 29:14
  You know, like I have the conceptual understanding of like
• 29:17
  the mechanisms behind it, But you know, it's almost as if he's
• 29:21
  using the prior system, He's taking advantage of the prior
• 29:25
  system, which I don't think was prepared for something like
• 29:29
  Bitcoin to buy more Bitcoin. It's, you know, and people call
• 29:33
  it a speculative attack on the dollar.
• 29:36
  Could you like describe what the mechanisms is behind it?
• 29:40
  And is is he putting MicroStrategy at risk by doing
• 29:44
  this? So the only people who think
• 29:48
  he's putting it at risk are people who I think don't
• 29:50
  understand what Bitcoin is. They think that they think
• 29:52
  there's a chance that Bitcoin could go to 0 or fail.
• 29:56
  And I, I used to think that back in like 2016 and maybe 2017 and
• 30:00
  18. And then after thinking about it
• 30:02
  and studying it for years and years and years and years, I
• 30:05
  realize like that's just silly. It's like saying electricity is
• 30:08
  going to fail or indoor plumbing is going to fail.
• 30:11
  Just because it's a monetary technology doesn't mean it's not
• 30:14
  a technology that's improving humanity.
• 30:15
  So, so that's premise #1 is Bitcoin going to fail?
• 30:20
  Absolutely not. Like 0% chance unless, you know,
• 30:23
  again. And, and he gets asked these
• 30:25
  questions all the time and I think they're so funny, like
• 30:27
  whoa. And, and he's like, well, I
• 30:29
  suppose if like a meteor struck the earth and we exploded or
• 30:33
  that we, you know, collided with the sun, yeah, then Bitcoin
• 30:36
  would probably fail, you know, but we probably have bigger
• 30:39
  problems on our plate if that happens.
• 30:40
  So. So Bitcoins not going to fail.
• 30:42
  So that's the one thing it was brilliant what he did.
• 30:46
  And, and, and I, I avoid the term speculative attack, even
• 30:50
  though that was popularized. I think it was Pierre Rashard
• 30:52
  maybe that that's coined that term or, or, or Bitstein or
• 30:54
  somebody, you know, way back in the day, way before my time.
• 30:58
  Brilliant, brilliant thought process.
• 31:00
  I call it a speculative arbitrage or just a carry trade.
• 31:03
  So like a Bitcoin carry trade, what you do is you borrow a a
• 31:08
  depreciating currency, which is any Fiat currency, but you can
• 31:12
  use the dollar. That's great.
• 31:13
  You could he could do this with anything.
• 31:14
  He doesn't have to do it in dollars.
• 31:16
  It wouldn't have to be the US stock system.
• 31:18
  It could be like Metaplanet and they're using, you know, assets
• 31:21
  in Japan to do the exact same thing.
• 31:24
  Excuse me. What he's doing is he's filling
• 31:27
  a need. So there was this huge need in
• 31:30
  Wall Street for people who wanted access to Bitcoin but
• 31:33
  couldn't have it. There's all these rules, right?
• 31:35
  It's, it's so stupid. It's all these communities of
• 31:37
  people who decided like, here's exactly what you can do and
• 31:40
  here's what you can't do. And one of the things you can't
• 31:42
  do is you can't buy Bitcoin. It's like, OK, well, people
• 31:44
  don't want to miss out on this, on these games, obviously.
• 31:48
  So one easy thing to do is you could, if you have a brokerage
• 31:51
  account and if or if you're a business, you can just buy
• 31:53
  MicroStrategy, the equity. OK, that's one, that's one thing
• 31:57
  you can do. A second thing is that traders
• 32:00
  love volatility, right? So people, so they love Bitcoin,
• 32:03
  but maybe they don't have cryptocurrency exchanges and and
• 32:06
  access to trading there. They want to trade in the in the
• 32:09
  old system, the old Wall Street system.
• 32:11
  So what it does is now you can create option strategies, you
• 32:14
  can do trading and because of its massive volatility, you can
• 32:17
  do all these kind of trading strategies.
• 32:18
  So traders love that extreme volatility.
• 32:21
  They've also created these double long and triple Long
• 32:23
  Products, things like that, which I think are crazy by the
• 32:26
  way, and don't don't recommend them at all.
• 32:28
  Like never use leverage with Bitcoin, don't use leverage with
• 32:30
  micro strategy. Those kind of people, the huger,
• 32:34
  the more important product that they've created because they
• 32:37
  have this Bitcoin core, this treasury of of Bitcoin assets.
• 32:42
  They can spin off things like convertible debt and other forms
• 32:46
  of debt. And so now the debt markets can
• 32:49
  get into Bitcoin for the first time.
• 32:50
  And I know you probably know this too, but the Bitcoin
• 32:53
  convertible debt and these bonds, they've massively
• 32:56
  outperformed regular bonds. So anybody who sorry.
• 33:01
  I mean, I'm, I'm just getting excited so.
• 33:03
  So, so, so imagine, right, you, you, you're some kid working for
• 33:08
  some stodgy old bond company, then you can only invest in
• 33:12
  bonds and you're like, awesome, we're going to make, you know,
• 33:14
  4% this year, super low volatility because you got to
• 33:18
  have low volatility. It's all people talk about like,
• 33:21
  awesome, but they get Bitcoin, right?
• 33:24
  And so they go talk to their 70 year old boss like, hey, I think
• 33:28
  we should get Bitcoin because our results suck and we're
• 33:31
  actually losing purchasing power to inflation every year.
• 33:34
  And they're like, well, we can't do that.
• 33:35
  And So what did Sailor do? He's like, hey, I got a deal for
• 33:38
  you. I will give you access to
• 33:40
  Bitcoin. I'll give you exposure to
• 33:42
  Bitcoin, but with a much lower volatility.
• 33:44
  So if Bitcoin has like a 60 ball, we're going to take the
• 33:48
  ball down for you, you know, to say 10% or 15% or somewhere in
• 33:53
  that range and we're going to limit all your downside.
• 33:55
  So what Sailor is basically saying is I'll absorb all of the
• 33:58
  volatility are almost all of the volatility on your behalf and
• 34:02
  give you this much of the upside gain, even though that it the
• 34:06
  stock is probably going to go up to here, you'll go here, but
• 34:09
  with no downside risk. And to a bondholder, that's like
• 34:12
  a miracle. That's like the greatest product
• 34:15
  that you can imagine because you are you kidding me?
• 34:16
  I could get like a 60% return over a year or two with no
• 34:22
  downside risk. Yes, I'll take that all day.
• 34:25
  And so that's why when Sailor he, he puts these products out,
• 34:29
  they're not only subscribed instantly, they're
• 34:31
  oversubscribed by multitudes and multitudes.
• 34:34
  So, so he might put out like, I'm going to offer 800 million
• 34:37
  and like literally like that he gets offers for like 1.2 billion
• 34:41
  and they get oversubscribed. And I just literally think he's
• 34:44
  going to be doing this over and over and over and over and over
• 34:47
  again because the, the, the desire in the bond market and on
• 34:52
  Wall Street to have these types of products where you can kind
• 34:55
  of dial up or dial down your volatility on the back of
• 34:59
  Bitcoin is insatiable. And I think that we're going to
• 35:02
  that's that's what makes micro strategy such an amazing
• 35:06
  product. And I get it, I get it right.
• 35:07
  It's a centralized honeypot. There are downsides.
• 35:10
  There are huge risks to it. I still tell everybody the best
• 35:12
  thing to do is just own Bitcoin and cold storage, get it off
• 35:15
  exchanges, get it out of the traditional financial system.
• 35:18
  But people should be cheering him on at the same time.
• 35:22
  I think every single CEO, founder, CFO of any public
• 35:28
  company should be doing exactly what he's doing.
• 35:30
  I truly do. And I think if you don't do
• 35:32
  that, you're going to get left behind again, if you don't have
• 35:35
  a Bitcoin strategy, even if it's just as simple as you put a
• 35:37
  little, you buy a little bit, you DCA into Bitcoin with some
• 35:40
  of your extra cash. If you're not doing that, you're
• 35:42
  going to get left behind and you're going to be obsolete
• 35:44
  within 10 to 20 years. Yeah, I completely agree.
• 35:48
  And and you just blew my mind. I was, I was that was
• 35:51
  fascinating. Just going down the the bonds of
• 35:54
  now. Look, Doctor Ross, I have a
• 35:55
  question for you, right? And this is something that, you
• 35:58
  know, looking back because you know, I I I started my career,
• 36:02
  my career has been Bitcoin, right?
• 36:03
  And you know, I've been more media focused, but I understand
• 36:08
  and I've explained this to you many times.
• 36:09
  Or like I, I, I learned Bitcoin 1st and then I've had to
• 36:12
  backtrad to like try to understand the traditional
• 36:15
  financial system after. And you know, one of the things
• 36:18
  that I noticed this year was for the first time, you know, and
• 36:23
  I've held Bitcoin, it's eight years now.
• 36:24
  Holy cow. But you know, for the first time
• 36:27
  I was looking at it, I was like, should I have bought in
• 36:31
  MicroStrategy instead of Bitcoin?
• 36:33
  So that's my question to you is if you know, you get a a
• 36:37
  question from a client or you get a question.
• 36:39
  And again, this is not financial advice, just pref asterisk,
• 36:42
  right? But if you get a question from a
• 36:45
  a client or like a higher net worth individual and they say,
• 36:48
  you know, Doctor Ross, like, what should I do?
• 36:51
  Should I buy MicroStrategy? Should I buy spot Bitcoin?
• 36:54
  And then also, you know, as a Bitcoiner kind of puts you in
• 36:57
  this conundrum because you're just like, you know, I want to
• 37:00
  take self custody of my Bitcoin. But at the same time you're
• 37:03
  looking at MicroStrategy and you said, you know, theoretically I
• 37:06
  could have multiplied the amount of Bitcoin I had like let's say
• 37:09
  I would have put the equivalent of 1 Bitcoin into MicroStrategy
• 37:13
  in the beginning of the year. Maybe I could have got in four
• 37:16
  or five out of that, you know, so that's not something that's
• 37:19
  very popular within the Bitcoin community.
• 37:22
  But it is a very important question because, you know,
• 37:25
  you're you're pitching spot Bitcoin to, you know,
• 37:28
  traditional investors or whatever.
• 37:29
  And they're looking at this like, why should I do that?
• 37:32
  If I can just buy MicroStrategy, I'm comfortable within my
• 37:35
  Charles Schwab account. I don't have to learn, you know,
• 37:38
  all this technical stuff and all that stuff that we all advocate
• 37:42
  for. What would be your advice
• 37:44
  towards that person? Again, not finding this is
• 37:46
  theoretical financial advice. So a couple of thoughts.
• 37:50
  So let me say first that about two years ago, I really 2:00 to
• 37:55
  3:00 somewhere really studied his his strategy, what he's
• 37:58
  doing at MicroStrategy. And I thought this is the only
• 38:02
  equity that I see that will outperform Bitcoin over the long
• 38:06
  run. I don't think anything else
• 38:07
  will. I don't think, I don't think
• 38:09
  Bitcoin miners will. Everybody was all into Bitcoin
• 38:11
  miners the last cycle. They're not so much this cycle,
• 38:14
  but they're still doing pretty well all other businesses, even
• 38:16
  if you, you know, whether you're a tech company, whatever kind of
• 38:20
  company you are, you just can't outperform Bitcoin unless, how
• 38:24
  could you do that through intelligent leverage?
• 38:26
  So I, I actually think I'm the one who coined that term and I
• 38:29
  think he's Michael Saylor took it from me because now he talks
• 38:32
  about the intelligent leverage strategy of my, of my, and
• 38:34
  that's great. It's an open source, you know,
• 38:36
  community and maybe I didn't, maybe he came up with it, but
• 38:40
  that I just looked ahead and thought this is the only thing
• 38:42
  because of this leverage. And if you shrewdly apply
• 38:45
  leverage, that's what a lot of hedge funds do too.
• 38:48
  That's how they out they can outperform the market if you
• 38:50
  shrewdly apply leverage and you have access to cheap leverage at
• 38:54
  the right times. OK, so so that's that's number
• 38:58
  one. Number two, everyone should own
• 39:00
  Bitcoin and have it in cold storage.
• 39:03
  Why? Because Bitcoin is an
• 39:04
  alternative to the collapsing Fiat system.
• 39:07
  So as much as I like micro strategy and I think it can
• 39:10
  actually even outperform Bitcoin, you don't know what's
• 39:14
  going to happen, right? And, and I, I hope he lives
• 39:16
  forever, but sailor could die in a plane crash today.
• 39:19
  He, he could, he could turn out he's doctor evil and he could be
• 39:23
  like, ha, ha, ha, I'm stealing all of this and we and we've
• 39:26
  duped you all right. He's he stores this at different
• 39:30
  places. I think Coinbase custody is one
• 39:32
  of them. There's other places.
• 39:33
  These are honeypots. It's possible somebody could get
• 39:36
  access to this. You could have a bad player who
• 39:38
  could some he could have a dude on his C-Suite in AC suite who
• 39:44
  who colludes with some other dudes in AC suite and be like,
• 39:47
  we're going to get the keys and we're going to take all this
• 39:49
  Bitcoin and move it to Tahiti. You know, and there's all of
• 39:52
  these different risks that you take on when you own
• 39:55
  MicroStrategy and other assets. So those things are real, right?
• 40:00
  And nobody believes, I mean, especially in a bull market,
• 40:02
  especially if you're outperforming, nobody cares.
• 40:04
  They'll buy it at any price. They also don't care that you're
• 40:07
  buying bit net. You know that it used to be on
• 40:09
  par with to the NAV of the Bitcoin that it held on its
• 40:12
  balance sheet and then it's it's gone up by multiples 3X4X5X.
• 40:18
  To the to the amount of Bitcoin it owns it it it has owned and
• 40:21
  that's kind of a market issue. And I and what happens is during
• 40:24
  bull markets is the is the further the bull market goes on,
• 40:27
  usually the greater that spread becomes at some point that
• 40:31
  spread closes again, right. People who own GB, this is a
• 40:34
  different technical issue, but people who own GBTC back in the
• 40:37
  last cycle learned that the hard way.
• 40:39
  I actually learned that the hard way because in our hedge fund
• 40:41
  that was about the only Bitcoin proxy I could find for my
• 40:44
  clients. 2021 was a really good year for Bitcoin even though it
• 40:48
  was subdued like we talked about earlier.
• 40:50
  But GBTC went from a premium to a discount to NAV to the net
• 40:54
  asset value. So GBTC, if I remember it, I
• 40:56
  think it returned 0 percent or right around it was flat in
• 41:00
  2021. That was very painful.
• 41:02
  So those kind of things can happen to micro strategy.
• 41:05
  And that's another thing that I think about is when it's the
• 41:08
  flavor of the cycle. So it when it's the darling of
• 41:11
  the cycle, the last cycle, the darling started GBTC and then
• 41:15
  that deflated and then it was the Bitcoin miners, they were
• 41:17
  the darling of the 2021 cycle. Now it's MicroStrategy.
• 41:22
  What usually happens is everybody wants the darling
• 41:24
  right away. So that tends to peak earlier.
• 41:27
  So what I think is going to happen, and we've already seen
• 41:30
  that, right, that the MicroStrategy is crushed,
• 41:32
  Bitcoin returns. I think it's up to your .4 to
• 41:34
  500% so far this year. I think it, if I had to, if I
• 41:39
  had to guess, it's going to peak early and then it's going to
• 41:41
  kind of fizzle while Bitcoin still kind of finishes its cycle
• 41:45
  a little bit later. So just a guess.
• 41:47
  I have no insight to that other than that's usually what happens
• 41:50
  for the darlings of the cycle because people, everybody wants
• 41:53
  that and then there's no more buyers left out at some point.
• 41:56
  So that's a really long winded answer to say if you have no
• 42:00
  other alternative, yeah, go ahead and buy some micro
• 42:03
  strategy. You go ahead and buy the ETF if
• 42:04
  you want. But super critical that you
• 42:07
  first need to establish real Bitcoin in cold storage outside
• 42:12
  of the system. Because if things hit the fan or
• 42:14
  if the government says, hey, we're going to seize this or
• 42:17
  whatever, or something bad happens, if you have a Bitcoin
• 42:21
  proxy, if you have a Bitcoin IOU, you don't have real
• 42:24
  Bitcoin. I know you know that and I know
• 42:26
  you tell your listeners that all the time, but you might be able
• 42:29
  to outperform for a while. It's the same with nonsense
• 42:31
  proof of proof of state crypto, right?
• 42:33
  A lot of people get attracted by that kind of stuff.
• 42:36
  You may outperform Bitcoin, but you're just playing with fire
• 42:39
  when you do that kind of stuff. And and I think and you that's a
• 42:42
  whole different subject, but you're just buying nonsense at
• 42:45
  that point and you really run the risk of just losing it all
• 42:48
  and getting rug pulled. And so just be smart.
• 42:51
  Absolutely, and it it that was an incredible answer.
• 42:54
  So it was like it's a leverage play, but it's not replacing
• 42:58
  real Bitcoin. All right, So if if if you're
• 43:02
  you know, because there's some regulations, I believe like if
• 43:04
  you own it, if you have like an IRA or something like it, you
• 43:07
  can't actually like you can't have self custody Bitcoin.
• 43:11
  And it's what you said it it it MicroStrategy has fulfilled this
• 43:16
  need, right? For they want people want
• 43:19
  exposure to Bitcoin, but because of the regulations, because of
• 43:21
  the laws, they can't do it just a.
• 43:24
  Quick, can I give you a quick case in point?
• 43:25
  I run a hedge fund right? So I I my platform is
• 43:29
  Interactive Brokers. I can buy Bitcoin through
• 43:32
  Interactive Brokers on my hedge fund, but I can only buy up to
• 43:36
  $1,000,000 worth of Bitcoin on they have a relationship with
• 43:40
  Paxos. This other exchange.
• 43:43
  I can't put it in a cold storage.
• 43:44
  I can only own it there and it's only up to 1,000,000, right.
• 43:48
  And so that's fine if you're if you're a smaller investor, but
• 43:50
  when I'm running a larger fund, that's just a small portion of
• 43:53
  my fund. So I have to find proxies to
• 43:57
  invest in Bitcoin. So I have to use MicroStrategy
• 43:59
  and have to use ETFs if I want to have more Bitcoin exposure.
• 44:03
  Very frustrating. Now what?
• 44:05
  And one thing I wanted to say, there are places you can have
• 44:08
  Bitcoin in self custody like multi sig solutions, Unchained
• 44:13
  Capital has those. I think Swan offers those.
• 44:16
  I think there are multiple institutions where you can hold
• 44:19
  real Bitcoin in a multi sig solution in an IRA.
• 44:22
  So I just wanted to say that sorry and I interrupted you.
• 44:24
  I just wanted to give that example.
• 44:26
  No, no, it's it's it's fascinating and one who sets
• 44:30
  these laws. I'm so confused.
• 44:33
  Like it's like up to 1,000,000 like why?
• 44:35
  I don't understand. Is it like supposed to be met?
• 44:39
  Is it meant to like, protect the investor?
• 44:42
  Is that the psychology behind it?
• 44:44
  Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I believe I, I believe a, a
• 44:47
  prominent female senator from Massachusetts is behind almost
• 44:51
  all of this stuff and I'm very bitter about it.
• 44:54
  And, and I, I've changed a lot of my own businesses practices
• 44:59
  and what I do because of these sorts of regulations that I've
• 45:04
  butted heads clashed with for a couple of years, very
• 45:07
  frustrating. So I think things will change
• 45:09
  with this next administration and and the the laws will become
• 45:13
  much more amenable and much more easy to comply with.
• 45:18
  Yeah, and, and not to get into any of the specifics or
• 45:20
  whatever, but it, it, it's almost as if like, you know,
• 45:23
  and, and I and I was talking about art, but my show
• 45:26
  specifically Doctor Ross, like we tried so hard to stay
• 45:32
  apolitical. And then it got to a point
• 45:35
  where, you know, I, me and Opti, of course, you know, Opti and we
• 45:40
  were just like, and I, and I told him I was like, dude, are
• 45:42
  we going to have to move to El Salvador?
• 45:44
  Like this isn't they forced our hand and they created like a
• 45:48
  situation where the opposing political parties like, oh, this
• 45:51
  is votes. You know, I don't think they
• 45:53
  actually care. They're just like, this is a
• 45:54
  great political opportunity for us.
• 45:56
  You know, we'll say the things and it's like they, they forced
• 46:01
  our industry to get active where I think bitcoiners inherently
• 46:05
  just don't care about politics. But it's like they poked our
• 46:08
  buttons to a point where we're just like, you know, like we
• 46:11
  just wanted to do something. But anyways, I, I wanted to
• 46:14
  pivot back to the, the micro, the, the, the micro strategy
• 46:18
  conversations. That was so fascinating to me.
• 46:20
  There is some recent news that was dropping in regards to the,
• 46:25
  and I love the, and I'm sure you saw it, the Sailor poking the
• 46:30
  buttons at the Microsoft CEO and then, you know, the shareholders
• 46:34
  like essentially, you know, put enough pressure on the board.
• 46:37
  And then my then Sailor was able to make a 3 minute video where
• 46:41
  he just essentially condensed all this information into a
• 46:45
  slideshow. But they had a vote and it was
• 46:49
  like, by and large, they just shut it down.
• 46:52
  So, you know, we know all this is inevitable as Bitcoiners, but
• 46:57
  why can't any, why can't everybody like, why can't other
• 47:00
  people see it? You know, I know that Tesla has
• 47:02
  Bitcoin, but why can't, why can't a company like Microsoft
• 47:06
  super successful, you know, makes a tremendous amount of
• 47:10
  money every year. They're holding, I think the
• 47:12
  last time I checked was $88 billion of cash or cash
• 47:16
  equivalents. So they're literally sitting on
• 47:18
  in a melting ice cube. Why can't they see what Sailor
• 47:22
  sees? Because they don't care.
• 47:25
  I mean, think about Sailor. He was desperate right?
• 47:27
  In 2020. He even admits that.
• 47:29
  And I've even said that publicly when when he's heard it is that
• 47:32
  he had this a crappy software business that was dying and he
• 47:35
  needed to do something. And he even says, I was thinking
• 47:38
  about just shutting it all down. And then I discovered Bitcoin.
• 47:42
  I was looking at like, I have these cash flows, which are
• 47:44
  great, but we haven't been able to grow or figure a solution out
• 47:48
  for years and years and years and years.
• 47:49
  And he has very frustrated shareholders.
• 47:51
  He's obviously a polymath, super intelligent guy.
• 47:54
  And I'm sure he was just just kicking himself like day after
• 47:57
  day after day. Like, what do I got to do to,
• 47:59
  you know, make this company grow again?
• 48:02
  And then you just. And that led him to Bitcoin.
• 48:05
  When you, when you look at the Mag 7, the Microsofts, the
• 48:08
  Amazon is going to be voting on this pretty soon as well.
• 48:10
  These other, these other companies, they're so wildly
• 48:13
  successful in the Fiat world that they don't need Bitcoin.
• 48:15
  They don't care. They're like, why would we
• 48:17
  disrupt the status quo? Why would we rock the boat?
• 48:20
  Because we're doing so great. And, and also you got to
• 48:23
  understand all of these businesses are run by
• 48:26
  committees. They have everything is done by
• 48:28
  the board, right? And so even if you have one or
• 48:31
  two people who get Bitcoin, you have 8 to 20 people who don't
• 48:34
  get Bitcoin and think it's a hoax still and they think it's a
• 48:36
  scam. It just takes time, right?
• 48:39
  So you got to get these younger people in who get it or the few
• 48:42
  older people who get it to, to effect change.
• 48:45
  Michael Saylor could do it because he was the founder and
• 48:48
  CEO. He's like, hey, I'm going to do
• 48:49
  this. I've decided and here we go.
• 48:51
  And I have, you know, a majority voting rights.
• 48:54
  So nobody can stop me. If you don't like it, you can
• 48:56
  leave. He gave that offer to people way
• 48:58
  back in the day and some people did take him up on that.
• 49:01
  So I just think that's what's going to happen.
• 49:03
  And it's again, it's sort of what we talked about earlier.
• 49:06
  It's not until these businesses get desperate that they realize
• 49:09
  they need Bitcoin and they need that annualized rate of return
• 49:13
  on their balance sheet till they till they realize like, Hey, you
• 49:16
  know, we're, we're trying to do, you know, build this product
• 49:19
  line, but it's, it only has an IRR of like 20% or 15% or 10% in
• 49:26
  like, should we really be doing this?
• 49:28
  What if we just put some Bitcoin on our balance sheet instead?
• 49:31
  Or at least, you know, maybe split it up half and half?
• 49:34
  So one of the things that I'm sort of proud of are well, two
• 49:36
  things related to what you said before I left Twitter, I made a
• 49:39
  plea to to my followers and said, if you own shares of these
• 49:44
  traditional stock market companies, these public
• 49:46
  companies put shareholder proposals in there to get
• 49:49
  Bitcoin on the balance sheet. We got to start, we, we have all
• 49:53
  of this and we know the truth, right?
• 49:55
  So start spreading that and start forcing the issue because
• 49:58
  as a shareholder you still have that power to bring up these
• 50:02
  issues. So that made a lot of news with
• 50:05
  Microsoft and ended up, you know, so Sailor got to give his
• 50:08
  little 3 minute pitch. I'm proud to say I was one of
• 50:11
  the votes or I, my fund actually owns Microsoft.
• 50:14
  We voted in favor of it. It lost.
• 50:16
  It only got .55% of the vote. So, so you know, 99.45% said no.
• 50:23
  I was part of the .55% that said yes.
• 50:27
  And people are like, how can you own Microsoft?
• 50:29
  It's a Fiat company. And I'm like, I know, but I
• 50:32
  started my fund. It was a total Fiat fund from
• 50:34
  the beginning. It was a value fund that
• 50:36
  invested in tech, technology and healthcare stocks.
• 50:38
  And we, we, we have come into Bitcoin and now we're like a
• 50:42
  massively Bitcoin centric fund, but we still have a lot of these
• 50:45
  older tech companies and things. And I still want to affect
• 50:48
  change from within, right? So I, I also own Amazon and our
• 50:52
  fund. I'm going to be voting in favor
• 50:53
  of that too. We're going to lose by a massive
• 50:55
  margin, but I guarantee, guarantee that over the years
• 50:58
  we'll start to win. And one by one these companies,
• 51:01
  somebody is going to figure it out, right?
• 51:03
  Maybe it's Tim Cook at Apple, who knows.
• 51:05
  It's somebody somewhere who will have a lot of power who will
• 51:08
  say, you know what, we need to get on a Bitcoin standard or at
• 51:11
  least put a little bit of Bitcoin on our on our balance
• 51:13
  sheet or we're going to fall too far behind.
• 51:15
  So I'm I know it's going to happen.
• 51:17
  I think by the end of the decade, a lot more companies are
• 51:20
  going to do it. We're all excited about the fact
• 51:22
  that it's not just sailor anymore, right?
• 51:24
  It's the now it's similar scientific marathon Riot are
• 51:28
  doing it to Bitcoin miners. Dylan Leclair over at Metaplan
• 51:31
  is doing that over in Japan. I love it.
• 51:33
  I love it all. It's just the beginning though,
• 51:36
  right? I mean, it's literally going
• 51:37
  from like 0 to one. That's what's going to drive
• 51:40
  this next cycle though. So that's why I think that's how
• 51:43
  we get to say 475,000 or somewhere between 200,000 and a
• 51:47
  million. And then we fizzle again when
• 51:49
  the liquidity drains out of the system.
• 51:51
  But the next cycle we're going to go from, we went from zero to
• 51:54
  one this cycle. We're going to go from 1:00 to
• 51:55
  5:00 or one to 10% the next cycle.
• 51:58
  And that's what's really going to be driving the next wave in
• 52:01
  the next cycle. So I'm very excited about that
• 52:03
  as well. I 100% agree with you.
• 52:05
  I think that, you know, if, because I see it from like a,
• 52:11
  you know, and, and not to mention Tesla, because a lot of
• 52:14
  people slightly, but Tesla actually owns like it's like
• 52:16
  10,000 Bitcoin, like they're not doing the micro strategy
• 52:18
  strategy, but they he has. And it's not only Tesla, it's
• 52:22
  SpaceX too, right, which is really interesting.
• 52:26
  But you're the way that I would say it is.
• 52:28
  If you're not, if you don't have Bitcoin on your on your balance
• 52:31
  sheet, you are at a competitive disadvantage to companies that
• 52:36
  do. And the reason I'm saying this
• 52:38
  is obviously Michael Sailors proving it.
• 52:40
  But you know, Doctor Ross, you've known me for a while now
• 52:44
  and somehow I made managed to make a like my hobby into a
• 52:49
  podcast, into a small media company.
• 52:51
  I have no idea what, how, what happened, but one of the things
• 52:54
  that we've applied it's simply is we have a Bitcoin like our
• 52:59
  treasury, at least half. I can't do full because I have
• 53:02
  to make payroll every month. But you know, at least half or
• 53:05
  more than like 5060% is in Bitcoin and it's your runway
• 53:11
  just keeps getting longer. It's, it's a literal cheat code.
• 53:16
  I can't, I can't emphasize that enough.
• 53:18
  Like if you're a business and you don't have a Bitcoin
• 53:21
  treasury, you have no idea what you're missing.
• 53:24
  And I think it obviously it applies to people on an
• 53:27
  individual level as well, right? If you're on a Bitcoin standard,
• 53:31
  but I think no one really saw it, you know, the, the, the, it
• 53:35
  really became popular, you know, is your, is your, it's not only
• 53:39
  are you on a Bitcoin standard, is your business on a Bitcoin
• 53:42
  standard that really started to become popular relatively
• 53:46
  recently, but it is such a cheat code like, and it does.
• 53:50
  You don't even have to have a Bitcoin business.
• 53:52
  It's just any business. If you are on a Bitcoin
• 53:55
  standard, you're, you're at a competitive advantage compared
• 53:58
  to everyone else that's not on a Bitcoin standard.
• 54:02
  And also your, your runway, your treasury is just going to keep
• 54:05
  expanding, you know, over time. So, and and then I guess my
• 54:10
  question to you, Doctor Ross is, is that just because of of I, I
• 54:14
  don't the correct word is not deflationary, but is that just
• 54:17
  because Bitcoin just increases in purchasing power over time?
• 54:22
  Is it as simple as that? All right, it's a decentralized
• 54:25
  secure neutral energy money. That's how I describe it.
• 54:29
  It like those terms and I choose them carefully neutral when I
• 54:33
  say that basically it's a fixed supply, obviously, right.
• 54:36
  So to and Jeff Booth talks about this all the time.
• 54:38
  So it captures the deflationary forces that technology.
• 54:43
  So humanity, human progress is deflationary.
• 54:46
  Deflationary games are captured in Bitcoin.
• 54:50
  And so the two things, and it's just, this is just like
• 54:54
  literally alien. We're speaking a different
• 54:56
  language to people in the Fiat system.
• 54:58
  They can't even imagine this because we grew up in this
• 55:00
  inflationary world, right? This Fiat world where everything
• 55:03
  gets more expensive, the packages get smaller, the amount
• 55:07
  of food gets smaller and quality decreases on the Fiat system.
• 55:12
  And that's what we're all used to.
• 55:13
  You get less and less and less for more and more and more every
• 55:16
  year. It's crazy, it's criminal and
• 55:18
  it's theft by the So we all know that, right?
• 55:20
  We don't have to talk about that.
• 55:21
  What is Bitcoin? It's, it's literally what, what
• 55:24
  does it do? It, it, it means that prices go
• 55:27
  down year after year on average, yes, every 3rd or every fourth
• 55:33
  year they go up, but then they go down again and over time they
• 55:35
  go down South. Overtime prices go down.
• 55:38
  Overtime quality improves. Every bitcoiner I've I've ever
• 55:42
  known, and I've known a lot of Bitcoiners, including myself,
• 55:44
  we've all, as we've gotten more and more on a Bitcoin standard,
• 55:48
  we've experienced life getting cheaper, quality improving.
• 55:54
  And so when I tell people who are in in so I'm a physician,
• 55:56
  right? You guys know that I have
• 55:58
  doctors talk to me all the time, like, well, should we put it on
• 56:01
  our balance sheet? And I'm like, do you want your
• 56:03
  medical practice? The do you want the cost of your
• 56:06
  goods and services to get cheaper and the quality to
• 56:10
  improve? Like, well, yeah, I'm like, so
• 56:13
  put Bitcoin on your balance sheet Like, well, you can't, I'm
• 56:16
  like, you can do that. I'm like, like you keep, you
• 56:18
  keep like Nico, you know, you run a business, you have a
• 56:20
  payroll, but you usually have a little extra money.
• 56:23
  You, you know, you don't ever go all the way down to 0 in your
• 56:25
  bank account, put 10% of it into Bitcoin and just start doing
• 56:28
  that. And then as and that will grow.
• 56:30
  And then as you, your, you know, comfort level with Bitcoin
• 56:34
  increases, you can increase that to 20 and then to 30 and then to
• 56:37
  50, you know, and that's what it happens to every individual.
• 56:40
  And then it happens to every business and every business that
• 56:43
  does that it, life gets cheaper and quality improves.
• 56:47
  And so I'm so excited about this for healthcare, cause healthcare
• 56:50
  in the US is super frustrating for doctors.
• 56:53
  We're, we hate it. The system is broken.
• 56:55
  It's run by administrators and pharma companies and insurance
• 56:59
  agents and, and they all get in our grill all the time and tell
• 57:02
  us what we can and can't do. And it's super frustrating and
• 57:05
  patients hate it because they're like the doctor said I needed
• 57:08
  this, but insurance just declined it, you know, and, and
• 57:12
  it's, it's all of this stuff. And, and it's not just
• 57:14
  healthcare that's broken, by the way, the education system is
• 57:16
  broken, The military is broken. All of these systems have been
• 57:20
  taken over by this crappy Fiat system.
• 57:23
  And the government's got their fingers and everything, right?
• 57:26
  And you can look at charts like, so going back to healthcare, the
• 57:28
  administration staff of, of, of healthcare has gone like this
• 57:32
  and the doctors has gone like this, right?
• 57:34
  And, and, and as the administration goes up here,
• 57:37
  people are more and more unhappy.
• 57:39
  The doctors and patients aren't happy.
• 57:41
  Same thing in finance. I shut down my RIA this year,
• 57:43
  which is very hard and it was a hard decision, but I'm super
• 57:46
  happy I did it had I like 120 clients that I that I had to let
• 57:50
  go of because the regulators were just driving me nuts.
• 57:54
  I, I was butting heads all the time by people who literally sit
• 57:58
  in an office who don't know how to invest, forcing me to the
• 58:02
  comply to their rules and how to invest safely for my clients.
• 58:05
  And it just drove me nuts And I'm like, I'm out.
• 58:07
  I can't take this anymore. OK, so I'm, I'm sorry, I'm going
• 58:11
  on a little tangent. All Bitcoin does is make life
• 58:13
  cheaper and it makes quality improve for all of humanity.
• 58:17
  And so if you want that for your life, then you should own
• 58:19
  Bitcoin. If you want it for your family,
• 58:21
  you should own Bitcoin. I'm a Christian.
• 58:23
  If you want it for your church, you should own Bitcoin.
• 58:25
  If you want it for your pension or your endowment.
• 58:28
  If your university is struggling right now, you should own
• 58:31
  Bitcoin in your endowment or your pension or just in your
• 58:33
  savings things account. If you're a business and
• 58:36
  especially if you're a physician and you run a private physician
• 58:39
  practice and there are a lot of people who follow me who do
• 58:41
  that, put Bitcoin on your balance sheet.
• 58:43
  You will soon over the over 10, probably within five years, but
• 58:47
  over probably 10 years, you'll start to have better services.
• 58:50
  You'll all have more purchasing power, meaning you'll make more
• 58:53
  money. You will be able to provide
• 58:55
  cheaper, better, cheaper and better equipment.
• 58:58
  Like right I, I'm a radiologist. You can get the best MRI scans,
• 59:01
  the best CT scans, the best equipment for your patients
• 59:04
  because you're making so much more on the Bitcoin standard.
• 59:08
  And you can actually charge less on a Bitcoin standard for your
• 59:11
  patients. So people will love you, you'll
• 59:13
  be super happy, Everyone will be happier.
• 59:16
  It literally is better money for a better world.
• 59:18
  And it's so simple, but nobody does it because everybody's too
• 59:22
  scared because they don't want to disrupt the status quo.
• 59:24
  So I'm like, be bold. Take a chance, like trust
• 59:29
  yourself and your intuition and start doing that with yourself
• 59:32
  and with your family and with your business and, and then you
• 59:35
  can thank me 10 years from now or thank Negros.
• 59:38
  Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a
• 59:41
  cheat code. It's a cheat code.
• 59:43
  You know, it's, it's, it's and it's so we're so the world is so
• 59:48
  nihilistic because they've just been conditioned to live in the
• 59:52
  Fiat system. And despite all of that, the
• 59:55
  free market still works, right? Despite all of that, you know,
• 59:58
  people are able to put businesses together despite, you
• 1:00:02
  know, all these disadvantages. And then Bitcoin comes in and
• 1:00:05
  you're and and it's, it's, it's like almost too good to be true,
• 1:00:10
  right? But all it is, it's just, you
• 1:00:13
  know, and I, I love the way that Jeff Jeff Booth puts it.
• 1:00:17
  He's like, look, this is the way that.
• 1:00:20
  Prices should be This is the way that the market should function.
• 1:00:24
  You know it is. It is unreasonable to think that
• 1:00:28
  you know, for whatever reason, on on Saturdays and Sundays, you
• 1:00:32
  can't buy whatever stock you want.
• 1:00:34
  Like, the market just shuts down if the volatility is too big.
• 1:00:37
  There's a circuit breaker. And then in regards to Bitcoin,
• 1:00:41
  it's like, you know, it's actually properly reflecting the
• 1:00:46
  improvements in innovation and the improvements in
• 1:00:48
  productivity. And he makes the case that it's
• 1:00:51
  like the world is naturally deflationary and Bitcoin is the
• 1:00:54
  only thing that is accurately portraying that because
• 1:00:59
  everything else is so manipulated that it, it's, it's
• 1:01:03
  it, it, it makes it seem like life is supposed to be getting
• 1:01:06
  more expensive. Where why should it be getting
• 1:01:08
  more expensive? And, you know, and I, the way
• 1:01:11
  that I'm seeing it, Doctor Ross is like my generation.
• 1:01:15
  So I'm a millennial and Jen's years, like we really got the
• 1:01:19
  short end of the sick with 2008, 2009.
• 1:01:22
  And somehow you're looking at it.
• 1:01:24
  If it wasn't for Bitcoin, you know, like I, I would have less
• 1:01:28
  opportunities than my parents. I, I wouldn't have the ability
• 1:01:32
  to purchase a house the way they did.
• 1:01:34
  I wouldn't have like the job opportunities.
• 1:01:36
  But the world on paper is richer.
• 1:01:40
  It's much richer. So what is going on there?
• 1:01:43
  If you're on a Bitcoin standard? I love, you know, I love, I love
• 1:01:47
  this one. The first time I heard it.
• 1:01:48
  It's like the American dream isn't dead.
• 1:01:50
  You're just using the wrong unit of account, you know, So you
• 1:01:55
  know, it, it's, it's definitely a cheat code.
• 1:01:58
  But anyways, we are, we are getting to the top of the hour.
• 1:02:01
  And I do want to give you one last opportunity, Doctor Ross,
• 1:02:05
  you know, to the audience, we haven't talked in a while.
• 1:02:08
  What are some last words of wisdom that you have for
• 1:02:12
  everybody heading into what we anticipate is going to be the
• 1:02:16
  year of the parabola? Everyone's really excited.
• 1:02:20
  What would those words of wisdom be?
• 1:02:24
  Oh man, OK, I'll try to. I'll try to be concise, but let
• 1:02:27
  me think. So you talked about Bitcoin
• 1:02:29
  being a cheat code. I totally agree with that.
• 1:02:31
  One thing I want to say to that or to qualify is there's there's
• 1:02:35
  a certain personality that gets freaked out when they hear that
• 1:02:37
  term because they're like, I don't want to cheat.
• 1:02:40
  That sounds bad. It sounds ominous, right?
• 1:02:42
  OK, so just so people understand, you're not cheating
• 1:02:44
  if you use it. Bitcoin is totally
• 1:02:46
  permissionless. You don't have to ask permission
• 1:02:49
  to use it. It's an opt in system.
• 1:02:50
  It's optional, unlike government Fiat where you have to use it,
• 1:02:54
  right? You can decide to use it.
• 1:02:56
  And that's one of the things that makes Bitcoin beautiful.
• 1:02:59
  So it's it's it, but, and to Nico's point, it is a cheat code
• 1:03:02
  for a better life. If you want your life to get
• 1:03:04
  cheaper and you want quality to improve, then get yourself on a
• 1:03:08
  Bitcoin standard, even if that means just getting off of 0 and
• 1:03:12
  just owning a few Satoshi's like it, it, it, that's how it all
• 1:03:15
  starts. The second thing is, and I, I
• 1:03:18
  have to credit Jeff Booth for this is I get asked all the time
• 1:03:21
  and it's because I'm a fund manager to, to make price
• 1:03:24
  predictions in dollar terms. And we all get excited about the
• 1:03:28
  bull markets and we all get excited about the exponential
• 1:03:30
  move higher that we're all expecting.
• 1:03:32
  Try not to focus on that though, right?
• 1:03:34
  Like think about Bitcoin as prices go down.
• 1:03:37
  Technology I, I show all the time.
• 1:03:39
  I still do this over on Nostril where I show every month an
• 1:03:42
  updated page from the Fred, the the Saint Louis Federal Reserve.
• 1:03:46
  They have a page that says buying eggs with Bitcoin.
• 1:03:48
  Look, you can look it up yourself, go Google it and it
• 1:03:52
  shows the price of eggs in dollars and then right below it,
• 1:03:55
  it shows the price of eggs in Bitcoin since January of 2015.
• 1:04:00
  It is fascinating to look at and I love it that they have it on
• 1:04:03
  there because they originally put it on there to show that
• 1:04:06
  Bitcoin is too volatile and you shouldn't use it.
• 1:04:09
  Look how much better it is on in dollar terms.
• 1:04:11
  But what what that chart shows, and I've started showing it in
• 1:04:14
  five year increments, so rolling five year periods over the last
• 1:04:17
  five years, the price of eggs in dollar terms has gone up about 2
• 1:04:21
  1/2 times, so about 150%. I think it's a little higher
• 1:04:25
  than that actually. And, and in Bitcoin terms, it's
• 1:04:28
  actually been cut in half. It's a little more than cut in
• 1:04:30
  half. So you're paying less than half
• 1:04:32
  for eggs than you were five years ago if you live on a
• 1:04:34
  Bitcoin standard and you're paying 2 1/2 times more if you
• 1:04:37
  have dollars. So think about Bitcoin as prices
• 1:04:42
  go down and quality improves technology, don't get too
• 1:04:46
  excited. You're going to see people
• 1:04:48
  getting making all this money and they're going to talk about
• 1:04:50
  trading Bitcoin. But I would just really
• 1:04:52
  encourage you to think of it as the world's greatest savings
• 1:04:54
  technology, right? The only reason we have these
• 1:04:57
  big, huge increases in price are because of these liquidity
• 1:04:59
  waves. When the waves come in, just
• 1:05:01
  like a wave comes, it's super powerful, but then it passes you
• 1:05:05
  and then it goes down again. And the price, we're going to
• 1:05:07
  have a bear market after that. So yeah, I don't, I don't like
• 1:05:09
  it when people get disenfranchised because they
• 1:05:11
  aped in, they got, you know, they followed, they followed in
• 1:05:14
  AT400K and then now Bitcoin fell all the way back down to 100
• 1:05:18
  gig. And so have a longer term
• 1:05:20
  perspective in mind. I, I can, you know, I can't make
• 1:05:23
  guarantees, but I'm very confident that 10 years from now
• 1:05:26
  the price of Bitcoin will be at least $1,000,000 and probably
• 1:05:29
  more, you know, per Bitcoin. So think about pricing your life
• 1:05:33
  in Bitcoin, think about having a better life.
• 1:05:35
  Think about how can I capture the games that humanity is all
• 1:05:39
  this human progress is making life better and making life
• 1:05:43
  cheaper and, and making quality improve.
• 1:05:45
  You can capture that by owning Bitcoin.
• 1:05:47
  So it's just so much bigger than a, than a trade and, and start
• 1:05:52
  thinking about that way and start trying to live on a
• 1:05:54
  Bitcoin standard And you're, you're, you'll literally start
• 1:05:57
  noticing an improvement in your life a minimum of four years
• 1:06:01
  and, and, and probably sooner. Love it.
• 1:06:04
  I completely agree Doctor Ross, always a pleasure to have you on
• 1:06:08
  the show. Really appreciate it.
• 1:06:11
  Now you have left at Twitter, which now is called X.
• 1:06:15
  So where can people find you and stay up to date with what you're
• 1:06:21
  doing and what you're thinking and what you're working on?
• 1:06:23
  Yeah, so I'm, I'm intentionally being more reclusive now, so
• 1:06:27
  staying out of the, the spotlight a little bit.
• 1:06:30
  I'm on Noster a little bit. I'm actually not on there that
• 1:06:33
  much, but I'm Doctor Jeff on Noster and that's really it.
• 1:06:37
  I run my hedge fund and I, I keep a low profile.
• 1:06:41
  And so, you know, you should follow, if you want to follow
• 1:06:44
  me, follow Nico instead and follow Simply Bitcoin and you'll
• 1:06:46
  be much happier. You'll get a lot more content.
• 1:06:49
  Really appreciate it, Doctor Ross.
• 1:06:50
  Very kind of you. Awesome.