Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / Being Courageous and Seeking Peace

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Being Courageous and Seeking Peace · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

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Hello, and welcome to another episode of Chatting with the Experts where
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I speak with phenomenal women, professional women, successful
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entrepreneurial women from Africa, from the Caribbean, and in the diaspora.
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And together they share with me a mission, which is to educate to
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empower and encourage women globally.
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Our topic today is We Must Make It A Better World, and my guest who
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will be joining me very soon says, "education is the means to greatness".
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She is a fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School and she focuses
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on matters involving activism, political linguistic issues, human
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rights, and international law.
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My guest also joined the Royal Society of Edinburgh, the Young Academy of
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Scotland, representing refugee minorities in 2019 and became the first ever woman
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to receive a degree of Dr. Honoris Causa and was also named patron of the
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University of Kinshasa in 70 years.
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She's also the youngest ever Dr. Honoris Causa in the Democratic
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Republic of Congo history.
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And with that, I want to welcome the phenomenal Dr. Debora Kayembe.
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Welcome Dr. Debora to the show.
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I am so fascinated by your... woo!
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By your resume, I couldn't even read everything.
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So what I did is what I normally do I just take some snippets of it, and this is,
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if there's anything that you really want me to point out, please share it with us.
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Thank you for having me.
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And you are saying, we started off by saying education
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is the means to greatness.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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So something that I would love you to talk about this never giving
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up, because I know that's one of the things you wanna speak on.
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Mm.
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Why do you wanna encourage people never... I mean, that sounds
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like something strange to say.
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Why are you going to encourage people never to give up?
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But you must have a story or a reason for saying that.
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Mm. Mm. Well, you know, I was brought up in the Democratic people of
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Congo in Africa where women rights and a woman condition are still
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in the backbone of our kitchens.
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You know, we still have to fight within our families to get out there,
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to get out of the streets, to get our voice within our own families.
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This is the family where I was born, a polygamic family.
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My father has two wives.
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And very quickly the marriage collapsed since I was two years old.
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And then I was taken away from my mother at age two and I was being
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entrusted to my father's family because this is the tradition.
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We are a patriarchal families.
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So the woman, once you divorce, you don't have any right on your children.
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So this is what happened to me, two-years old girl.
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And being looked after by my father who tries with very difficult
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stepmothers, and then that didn't work.
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And then in the end, he trusted me to his own sister, younger sister who was
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married to another man who seems to have a much stable marriage at that time.
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So I lived under the care of my aunt, where everything I
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have to do, I have to earn it.
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Mm.
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So if I want to earn the respect in my aunt house, I have to be a
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good girl, doing all the chores, being respectful when you are tired,
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not saying no, responding to their needs so you can have an exchange,
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the will to pay for your education.
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You know, so I remember I was in primary school when the teacher
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says, if you are educated, no one can take that treasure away from you
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because education is your treasure.
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If you can read and write, if someone tells you a lie, but you're still
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able to read and write and understand why, what is telling me is a lie.
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So in an environment where my parents weren't there, my
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biological parent were not there.
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My brother and sister were not there.
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They was my cousin.
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Sometimes they like me, some though they dislike me.
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My own power was my education.
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So in some level, in some period of time when we were grown up, my aunt
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has difficulties to pay my study.
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So she then, privileged her own children.
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And I said, you can go when I think I have money to pay for you.
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You know, you, you only have me, your aunt.
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I'm married here.
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There's nothing I can do.
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So it was like, you do this to get this in exchange.
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But for me, I will do as much as they ask me to do at home so they don't have
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an excuse not to pay for my education.
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Gotcha.
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You see?
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So it was that I keep on studying, but in exchange of all that, in this
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midst of difficulties, I was always the first in my class, the best student.
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Yeah.
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So that encouraged them at home also, because it was like themselves feeling,
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oh, we have an intelligent child in the house so we can keep paying for her.
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We got the owner for us.
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So it was keeping and giving, you know.
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It's in this environment of cultural backbone of girls that I was brought
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up in the Congo where I have to fight for everything I needed to get.
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And for me, there was nothing else than my own education because at such a young
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age, I realized that was my freedom.
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And it indeed was your freedom.
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Yes.
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It was what you've accomplished today.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And so I guess that is what has given you that heart of gold to, you
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know, look out for people who are underprivileged, underrepresented.
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You know, I noticed that you joined the Royal Society of Edinburgh.
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Mm-hmm.
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In 2019, I think you said.
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Yeah.
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2019. Yes.
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Yeah.
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And it was also the Young Academy of Scotland for
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representing refugee minorities?
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Yes.
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Well, you know, when I continued in DRC, obviously I finished
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my... I graduated a university.
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I get to go to the bar and then there was another situation through the bar
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when they were saying every student who finish this year, because they
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come to... in the reef of Civil War, you have to go to do your... inside
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the country, not in the big cities.
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So my aunt says, okay, I don't have anywhere to take you.
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I don't know I have any friends to take you in the next town where you can go to
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get your internship to become a lawyer.
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You have to fund your own ways.
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Again, with my own determination, I decided to go on that place
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where I had, my aunt was not there, my family was not there.
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I was on my own in the city knowing nobody, only to complete
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my internship to become a lawyer and to be able to pass in the bar.
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So I went through all this determination of if I have studies, why can I
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not become what I want to become?
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So I started to become somebody.
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But if at the midst of becoming what I want to become, I have to give
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up, it doesn't make sense though.
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Yes.
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I have to go to the end.
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So I eventually managed to get to the bar and starting to
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campaign for human rights in DRC.
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I remember the first time I came to the situation where I was doing
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a study on the field and I went to the poorest area of Kinshasa.
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When I saw a baby of three - four years old screaming because a child
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did not eat anything for three days.
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I asked the mother, why your child is crying like this?
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Well, we have no food for three days.
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Mm-hmm.
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I run home.
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I got the food that was just... in my fridge and took it and
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went to give to the family.
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And I said, from now on, if your child is starving, you have to call me.
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I'll provide for you.
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Yeah.
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I was a young lawyer that I'm working and helping and start opening my eyes
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around me, seeing the inequality that was existing in the Congo at that time, and
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it still existing today because now the country is collapsing in the Civil War.
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It's a different story.
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But I have left Congo in 2005, fleeing for my safety because as a human
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right lawyer, I showcase violation of human rights throughout the years.
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So I was really afraid to stay in the... I settled in the UK.
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Mm-hmm.
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In the UK with my husband came another story of domestic abuse and domestic
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violence, which I survived again.
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Oh my word.
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And then and the reason why I left England to move to Scotland
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because I was in a quest of peace.
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Hmm.
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I needed peace after a difficult marriage.
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So that peace, I found it in Scotland, where again, no one
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around me, only me with two babies, 11 months and two years old.
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My word.
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That I raised on my own for 20 years until this day.
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20 years?!
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Yes.
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Without getting engaged in another relationship.
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But coming to the Royal Society of Edinburgh, when I arrived in
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Scotland, it was the lack of knowledge of the African culture and African
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heritage in the Scottish Society.
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So when I joined the academy, my idea was perhaps you hear
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stories, but I am the witness.
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I am the witness of what's happened in Africa because I was educated in Africa.
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Mm-hmm.
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When I came into society, no one believed Congo could produce lawyers.
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And I said, what?
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There are plenty of lawyers in the Congo, you know?
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And here is one.
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Yeah.
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And you said, here is one standing before you, right?
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Yes.
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Yes.
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And that was another challenge because there were so many stories about Africa.
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On this ancient society, within this ancient society was
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just not truth about Africa.
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Yeah.
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There was a lot of falsification.
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There was a lot of stereotyping, you know, and that was the job
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I've given myself when I joined the society and I said, give me the chance
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to tell you what Africa is about.
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Mm-hmm.
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Give me the chance to describe you the strength of the African woman, who lives
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in a society where her nature as woman is already downgraded, but she's still
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fighting to raise a family, to feed the family, to go to the education.
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And I think that gave me this portrait being directed because
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it changed the Scottish society on the way of seeing Africa.
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Four years on working on policies, four years on rewriting story,
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rewriting narrative about Africa made them believe this woman deserved it.
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Perhaps you don't know this.
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The Royal Society of Edinburgh exists for two hundred and sixty seven years.
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It has a total of 167 portrait, all white male.
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Only one woman at that time arrived.
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That was the late Queen Elizabeth.
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And your portrait is there then.
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And my portrait after that.
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That's commendable, Dr. Debora.
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Oh my God.
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That was the work that it's about making the world where we're respecting
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each other by first knowing exactly who is the person next to me.
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No stereotyping, no making ideas.
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But who is he?
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Who is her?
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And then where does he come from?
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And learn from them.
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And then build the respect, tolerance, and dialogue around the situation.
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Exactly.
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And that's something I guess you helped put into place by being the example.
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Being the one that they could relate to being like a resource.
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Like, okay, do you wanna find out more about, let's talk, even if
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we are not talking about the whole African continent, which is much
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bigger than people can even imagine.
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Yes.
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Never represented correctly on the map.
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Mm-hmm.
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But then say, let's start with even my country.
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You know, and let what questions do you need?
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Mm-hmm.
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You thought there were no lawyers?
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Here I am.
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You thought there were no lawyers educated in the DRC?
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Here I am.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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But you know the headline to the media when I became Director of
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Investor of Edinburgh, it was every single place saying this woman was
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born, raised, and educated in Africa.
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Hmm.
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You see that?
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So Africa has a lot to give to the world.
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Oh yes.
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Africa has a lot in term of human resources in term of
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whatever things you close.
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It's just the whole humanity together in one single land with extraordinary people.
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Exactly.
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But colonization, changed the history, changed the narrative.
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That's where we are now.
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That's where we are now.
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And talking about where we are now, you mentioned that one thing
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that you're passionate about is encouraging people to be courageous.
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Mm-hmm.
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Let's expand on that.
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Courage is something extraordinary.
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Yeah.
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Before you contaminate the courage to other people.
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You need to be yourself, the courage.
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Yes.
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Your life, your project, everything you do has to reflect on courage.
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Mm-hmm.
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The courage of trying, the audacity of believing in yourself.
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Yes.
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You know?
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Yeah.
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But in other words, you're saying it has to come from within you.
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You've gotta believe in yourself.
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You've gotta be courageous about whatever it is that you feel
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that you need to represent.
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Yes.
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And then go forward with that.
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Yes.
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And that goes to you see people talking around you, let them talk.
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Mm-hmm.
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Time will prove you right.
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Yeah.
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Let them talk.
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As long as you are in the right path.
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Let them talk.
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Because time will justify you.
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I have something personal as a as a mother because we are women and most of us in the
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majority, we are mother and so many single moms around the world right now, you know?
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When I was raising my children, I had no one to look after them.
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Okay?
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So in order for me to escape social services or taking children into care,
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I have to pay substantial money to nannies and to escape the social system.
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And that is very common in Europe and in America.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I remember every year as we were going throughout the year, I was saying to
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myself, how long am I gonna be paid this?
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You know, I got an opportunity to travel around the world.
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I cannot do that.
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I have small children.
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I have to stand by them and live to by side, and I'm telling this to every woman.
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Don't discourage yourself because through the end of the tunnel, there is a light.
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Yes.
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You know, so I was just waking up in the morning and I said, oh, today
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I've got this opportunity to go to work in Japan, but I can't go because
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it's so far away from the children.
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They're so young.
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Goodness, I can't do that.
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Mm-hmm.
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I managed to work and more I was living my life, excited to my children, respecting
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my role as a mother, even though I felt so unjust to be raising my children on
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my own because their father walk away.
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But the day I become that lady the world that was talking about, it paid off.
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The courage...
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Paid
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off, yes.
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Taking a position, the firm position of doing the right thing, the courage
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of standing through the right thing.
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Always pay in this life.
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It always pays.
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Thank you for saying that because many a times women need to hear that, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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You made your children your priority.
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Yes.
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In spite of the difficulties involved, in spite of the fact
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that you couldn't progress.
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Yeah.
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In some ways, because your first and foremost your responsibility
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were to your children.
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They didn't ask to be born.
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Yeah.
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You now, because of that, stood by them and I'm sure today.
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How old are they if you don't mind sharing?
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19 and 20 today.
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19 and 20.
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All three.
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So it this all big house on my own now.
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Look at that.
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Look at that.
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It's been worth it.
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Yeah It's been worth it.
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So this is something I said about the courage of facing adversity.
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It's something extraordinary because if you are facing this kind of trial
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where you need to make a choice, it is now you get the glory you want to have.
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Or it is a long way going, but the end of the tunnel is shiner
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than where you can go quickly.
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It takes courage.
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Yes, it does.
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It takes courage.
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It does.
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It takes courage to choose to protect the others.
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It takes courage to choose to raise the voice for the others and instead yourself.
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Yeah.
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It takes courage to forget yourself sometime and to put a cause ahead
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that concerns everyone.It takes that courage but it always pays.
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Always pays off.
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Yeah.
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Always.
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I know that you describe yourself as an activist.
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Mm-hmm.
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And not just regional for where you are in Scotland, but...
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All around the world.
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Yeah.
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International law.
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Would you say that your life experiences that have motivated you to do that?
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Because I know we talked about never giving up.
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But I know you all, something else that you mentioned off camera to
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me was seek peace at any cost.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Well, activism it's one of the thing in this world that expose you to many things.
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It exposse you to hatred for those who doesn't want you to continue
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in the path that you're going.
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But activism... most of all, you do it because you need peace around the society
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where you live, within your community, within your inner circle, you know?
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And I remember being a child who was born into conflict.
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Mm-hmm.
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I think that exercise I started, as you say, my own life experience.
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I was a child born into conflict.
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In a house where peace was not there.
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And then I've been moved at such a young age, one house to another
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in just trying to seek peace.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I realized the importance of having a peaceful life when you can
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negotiate peaceful life for yourself and negotiate peaceful life for the others.
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Seeking peace in our lives is the greatest gift that we could not ever give to
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ourself or to other people, you know?
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Throughout my marriage, I was married only for four years.
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Mm-hmm.
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I have to stop that marriage because I couldn't find peace within their marriage.
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And I stayed next to the father of my children, hoping that we can live
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side by side and raising our children.
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It didn't work.
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So seeking peace took me to Scotland because I was seeking peace.
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I was looking for a place that I can evaluate peacefully with my children.
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And Scotland gave me that opportunity with a job perspective that pulled me a
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long way to the place I was expecting.
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Mm-hmm.
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So I think it's important in our lives to avoid conflict.
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Because conflict does not take us anywhere prosperous.
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No.
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We need to avoid conflict.
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We need to be peacemakers.
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And the peace that we have to make around us has to be sustainable, and it has
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to come from our own lived experience.
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Yes.
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Once we have lived that experience, we can share them with the others easily because
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we have been through the same process.
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It's very important today when I see conflict around the world, people
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come to me and say, Debora, if you say just one word, things will change
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because the testimony of my life, the testimony of the experience I have lived,
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gave me that notoriety to speak out.
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So women need to cultivate this reputation instead of money.
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Build your own reputation within your community first and then
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within your inner circle because it's important to build that.
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Once you build it, you earn the respect and there is nothing better
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in this life than to live peacefully.
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You're in your living room, you fill a glass of water, you're drinking your
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water, you are watching your program.
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You go to sleep peaceful.
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It's priceless.
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And that's impactful coming from a woman like you who has
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experienced so much conflict
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Yeah.
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Who's still experiencing conflict.
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You know, you appreciate peace when you know, or have
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experienced what peace is not like.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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When you've lived through a war, you know what peace is like.
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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And you seek to keep peace at all means.
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And then when you realize the others are going to that term that you've
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been before, you have to fight for them to find the same peace.
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Yes.
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You can't just live on your own peace.
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Absolutely correct.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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Well, Debora, I would, Dr. Debora to make sure I address you correctly.
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We could talk forever.
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Yes.
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But I know the audience members who have joined would love to
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ask you some more questions.
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But for those of you who are viewing this online, or people who are
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viewing this online, who would like to know more about you, find out more
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about what you do, get in contact with you, how can they reach you?
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But the best contact is of certainly LinkedIn.
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Because I'm in LinkedIn is Dr. Debora Kayembe.
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And you can reach out to me on Instagram too.
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Debora Kayembe, the same name, just Debora Kayembe, as well as I'm on X. Yeah.
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X.
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Twitter?
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Yeah.
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It's X now.
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So you can reach me.
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LinkedIn is far better, so you can even message me directly.
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We can be in touch, but I would say something to women
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today is that everything you do, don't live for yourself.
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Live for the others.
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Live to have a space where you can share your very best to the
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others, your experience, your inexperience to the others.
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So you can build a world where there is less and less problems because the
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world is already difficult the way it is.
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You got the tsunamis coming.
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We got the climate change.
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It's already too much for human being right now.
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So if us as human, we build this bridges of peace, the bridges of
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understanding and tolerance, and we mastermind our education for the goods,
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we are gonna make a better world.
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Woah.
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Dr. Kayembe.
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That is so well said.
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Thank you very much.
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So well said.
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Yeah.
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Those of you who have been impacted, what you just heard from Dr. Kayembe, if you'd
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like to be a guest, like she has been on my show, reach out to me on my website,
24:09
which is chattingwiththeexperts.com.
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I'm also on LinkedIn.
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You can go to my business page there, which is Chatting with the Experts.
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Mm-hmm.
24:18
Facebook, Chatting with the Experts as well.
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And on YouTube, please subscribe to our channel where you'll hear messages.
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Ah, I mean, I'm so excited.
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Messages from women from Africa, from the Caribbean, and in the diaspora.
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Yes.
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Mm-hmm.
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Who are sharing with you, who are there to educate you and
24:41
empower you and encourage you.
24:43
Messages just like Dr. Debora Kayembe just shared with us.
24:48
Mm-hmm.
24:48
Please like and subscribe so that you can be notified whenever another exceptional
24:55
woman is sharing her message with you.
25:01
Hmm.
25:01
Thank you so much Dr.
25:03
Thank you for having me, Paula.
25:04
It was a real pleasure.
25:05
It was a pleasure having you too.
25:08
And now we'll open up the floor for those who joined us so we can continue this very
25:14
more than interesting, this very deep and impactful discussion that we just had.
25:20
Thank you.
25:21
Thank you.