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What I've Learnt - Eylon Levy · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

0:08
SPEAKER_01: Well it takes courage to stand up, and that is what Ellen Levy's done since October 7.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: As the cultural wars rage across media platforms, he's used his skills, intelligence, and even humor to tell the world about the siege that has engulfed Israel and the global Jewish community, in fact, the whole Middle East.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: He's a former Israeli government spokesman who became one of the most prominent voices for Israel in the October 7 war with Hamas.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: He previously served as an international media advisor for President Isaac Herzog after a career as a TV news anchor.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Born and raised in the UK, he studied at the universities of Oxford and Cambridge before making Aliyah and serving in the IDF.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: He's now the host of the State of a Nation podcast.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: He's visiting Australia on a special tour to speak to people and to try and raise awareness and educate and connect with those who are concerned about what is happening in the Middle East, particularly in Israel, and particularly with the hostage crisis and the rise of anti-Semitism.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, welcome to Australia, Elon.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: I see you're embracing this big footage.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I can see.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: I've seen some great footage of you out on the water and just embracing this beautiful big community that we have here.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: We're very thrilled to have you in town.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Very great.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Glad to be here.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: So this is a pretty intense time for all of us.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: You've landed in Australia really at quite an extraordinary time in history, I would have to say.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: I think both for our community but also for the world.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: I feel like you really have landed in a way in the eye of a storm, which, if it was already spinning, you are right in the hurricane, as are we all.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: This week, the devastating news about the hostages, including the tragic loss of Hirsch, Paul, and Goldberg.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: We're all rocked and the whole community, as you have experienced and understand, and I'm sure yourself, I interviewed Rachel Goldberg, that beautiful brave mother.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I think we are all pretty shaken by what is going on.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: How are you coping and how do you process what we're dealing with?
2:23
SPEAKER_01: What are some of the tools that you're using to cope yourself?
2:26
SPEAKER_01: Because it's it's a very emotional time.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: It has been a horrible period for all of us.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I know that I'm here with JNF Australia in the middle of a war to talk about a war, to help them raise funds.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: And yet there are moments when one thinks one can at least escape the emotional impact of it, if only momentarily.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: And then on Sunday morning, we received the horrific news of the execution of six hostages in the Hamas terror dungeons.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: News that only got worse when we discovered that Hamas had filmed propaganda videos with them before their execution and started releasing them as their families were burying them.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: And the news really flawed me.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: It I don't want to say put me in a bad mood.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't think any of us have been in a good mood since October 7th, but took the wind out from under my sails.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: And it's not easy when you have a packed schedule and you're meeting people and people will take photos and shake your hand and hear you speak to put on a brave face when all you want to do really is just lie down in a dark room.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I was thinking about you actually in that regard, knowing I was interviewing you, and I was thinking, you know, you're on the other side of the world and you are here, and that I know that you've got booked out and sold out events because people value what you have to say.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think in some ways, somebody like you has to be resilient, but also you find a way to really what you're here is to share humanity and for us to all have that universal experience where, in a way, we just have to connect because that's how we cope.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: And what we have done globally and what you are doing is really about connection.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel connected?
4:13
SPEAKER_01: Even you can land in the middle of the other side of the world, and it's as if you're home.
4:17
SPEAKER_02: Possible, a little bit of perspective.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: Six hostages were executed, it has destroyed their families' lives.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: And because we have been following their stories so closely, we are experiencing that vicariously.
4:31
SPEAKER_02: It's nothing compared to the immediate ring of the family.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: But we feel Yehuda Amichai had a famous poem about the diameter of the bomb, showing the ripple effects of every attack and how much pain it causes.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: And we're on the receiving end of those shock waves.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: But I'll say what actually did give me a lot of comfort was to see the spontaneous outpouring of grief here in Sydney, uh, to see the Jewish community coming together at Bondai Beach to remember the hostages who were murdered, who were brutally executed, and to commit to fight for their freedom.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: And I told them we have to work to put pressure on the Hamas terror regime and its backers, Qatar, Turkey, and Iran, to let them go.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: Now we have to move from grief to rage.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: It's okay to feel angry to action.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: Exactly, to determine it.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: And I said, look, you have to trust, you have to trust your brothers and sisters in Israel that they will put all pressure that they can on the government to do whatever it can to bring them back.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: But that's not the message we need to hear from you.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: You need to tell the Australian government and other governments to put pressure on Hamas to let them go because it doesn't have a reason to let them go.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: And I think that if people move from grief to rage to action, we process that grief because we're working to prevent more grief in the future.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, you know, I don't know, I'm sure you saw the the devastating video of um Rachel and John at the funeral of their son.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: And actually he said, in his words, were you normally you you'd say a blessing, he said, but I hope this is a call for a revolution, which I thought was extraordinary.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: In other words, he was trying to say exactly what you're saying, which is we can no longer just sit in our tears.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she talked about how she literally ran out of tears to the point where she went to the eye doctor to find out what was wrong with her because her tears had dried up.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: They weren't working.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was just the most emotional interview.
6:29
SPEAKER_02: I remember I remember Mrs.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: Goldberg-Collin said that during the international rally for the hostages that I had the privilege of MCing in Tel Aviv.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: The funeral took place in what was late at night here in Australia.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: Uh, Rachel's eulogy was the last thing I watched before I went to sleep, and I dreamt that I was at the Shiva.
6:51
SPEAKER_02: It's impossible to escape the emotional impact of this.
6:55
SPEAKER_02: And they are extraordinarily brave.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, and when I met her at the beginning of the war and asked her, how do you keep it together?
7:02
SPEAKER_02: She said, You know, I'm bitting on a brave face.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: Most of the time I'm curled up in a ball and I'm crying.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but that message is so important.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: We cannot simply wallow in the grief.
7:12
SPEAKER_02: We have to support the families of the hostages, the families of the hostages who have been buried because they need help, as Rachel said, and she said that she's feeling that love from her neighbors and she needs more support.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: But to remember that there are still 101 hostages.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: We know that between 30, 40 of them at least have been killed, and we have to assume all the rest are alive.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: And to assume that they could be starved and tortured and raped and executed, and we have to fight to bring them home.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: Because they were there.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: Hirsch Goldberg-Pullen was alive until just a few days ago, somewhere in a dark tunnel.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what was going through his mind.
7:50
SPEAKER_02: Can't begin to imagine the psychological torment that uh for months we've been saying there is no time to waste.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: That's it.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: That the time's gone.
7:58
SPEAKER_02: The time's gone.
7:59
SPEAKER_02: It's crunch time.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: I think also, you know, I'm I was looking at all the news outlets.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, some have reported it and some have just not reported it, as if it's like a blip.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: It's very strange.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, we talk about you and I being in a media sort of, it really is a bit of a media war, let's be honest.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: And part of what you do is you are out there, as am I in my own way, but you in particular, trying to draw awareness and educate and and stir people to, I suppose, to feel something and to connect to.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about people not just in our community, people outside of the community, obviously.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Do you find it strange that the empathy, where is the humanity and empathy that that is, doesn't seem to be present in so many of the media outlets, but also in many of the communities that we would otherwise trust and institutions that we valued, be they universities, etc.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: What is going on?
8:54
SPEAKER_02: First of all, I was pleasantly surprised to see how much coverage there was in the Australian media of the savage execution.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: Just today at the airport, I saw the front page of the Australian that spoke of the torment inflicted by the Hamas ghouls, they called them on the front page.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: The vigil at Bondi Beach made the front page of the Daily Telegraph.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: And uh and in another newspaper as well, the Sydney Morning Herald, the protests in Tel Aviv over the hostages made front page news.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: I think more than any other moment since October 7th, the savage execution of six hostages reminded the world that Hamas is evil, that it is, as President Biden said, sheer, pure, unadulterated evil, and that we have to do two things, and our survival depends on these two things.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: We have to rescue the hostages from the clutches of this evil, and then we have to eradicate this evil from the face of the earth.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: And our allies know that.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: They know that because they said it, but they're tying themselves into knots because they've been so pressured by Hamas's propaganda to simply make this war go away.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: I saw Prime Minister Trudeau of Canada saying that there can be no role for Hamas in the future of Gaza.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: It must lay down its arms.
10:15
SPEAKER_02: And then he calls for a ceasefire that would actually leave it.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: He knows.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: But he knows it has to go.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh and you know what I'll say, one of the most painful things about this has been the total lack of empathy from international institutions.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: That's what I was referring to as well.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: UN rapporteurs who can't bring themselves to condemn it without you know twisting in the knife and trying to attack Israel from the other direction and rubbing salt in the wounds.
10:43
SPEAKER_02: And you see, look, there are two children who are still hostages.
10:47
SPEAKER_02: We have to assume that Kfir and Ariel Bibas are still alive until we know otherwise.
10:53
SPEAKER_02: Kfir Bibas is a baby.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: I know, real comprehensible.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: Just turned five, okay?
10:59
SPEAKER_02: And no UN agency is launching a campaign for them.
11:02
SPEAKER_02: There is now a major polio vaccination campaign for children in Gaza.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: Has anyone tried finding Kfir and Ariel Bibas?
11:11
SPEAKER_02: Has anyone looked for them?
11:13
SPEAKER_02: Has anyone told Hamas we're vaccinating all children in Gaza?
11:18
SPEAKER_02: Can we please vaccinate those two little children?
11:20
SPEAKER_02: Take them back into your terror dungeons afterwards, but we're vaccinating the kids.
11:23
SPEAKER_02: Let us vaccinate them.
11:25
SPEAKER_02: Nothing.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: But where's the Red Cross?
11:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the same.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: Where's the Red Cross?
11:30
SPEAKER_02: Families gave up a long time ago on even trying to get the Red Cross to visit them.
11:34
SPEAKER_02: Because it's not just that Hamas has a veto, it's not just that Hamas can stop them.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: They sense that there was no empathy, there was a lack of humanity from the Red Cross.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, it's not surprising.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: The head of the Red Cross was until recently a senior position in UNRWA.
11:48
SPEAKER_02: It's a let's talk about UNRWA.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: What about UNRWA?
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, I know that you've talked about that a lot, and we're all we're all just in awe of what's been revealed in terms of were there nine nine UNRWA operatives that we believe were involved and we have seen footage and we've seen evidence.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: And yet, what action?
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Consequence?
12:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, the consequence is that Australia doubled its funding to UNRWA.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: And that's horrific because Australia's actions are not only telling Hamas that they can get away with the barbaric atrocities of October 7th, but that they'll be rewarded for it.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's true that most of the October 7th monsters were not UNRWA staff.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: But almost all of them were UNRWA graduates.
12:33
SPEAKER_02: Almost every single terrorist who took part in that massacre went through the UNRWA school system.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: And a school system that produces people who kidnap babies, who burn families alive, who conduct acts of gang rape is fundamentally rotten.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: And it's the UN education system that is paid for by Western taxpayers, including Australian taxpayers.
12:52
SPEAKER_02: It's an organization that puts Hamas fight out of its facilities, that covers up how Hamas hijacks aid, that indoctrinates generations of Palestinian children, thanks to the Australian taxpayer.
13:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think taxpayers here need to understand that funding for UNRWA is a subsidy to Hamas, because this isn't a humanitarian agency.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: It's an inhumanitarian agency.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: It isn't doing life-saving work, it's doing life-taking work.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: And not only have there been no consequences for UNRWA, we've seen zero remorse or apologies from its leadership for the fact that they are, as far as I know, the only UN agency whose staff have taken part in a horrific terrorist attack and whose graduates from their school system took part in their thousands.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: Do you think we would have been aware?
13:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know this was something that we were trying to make the UN aware of for many years prior to October 7th, but obviously October 7th brought it all into high relief so that we could see there was certainly much more awareness of their role.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Do you think it's going to change?
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Is there going to be any movement?
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Do you think governments are resonating?
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Does the West understand just how terrifying and how the West is next and how we're the canary in the coal mine?
14:11
SPEAKER_01: The Jewish community, as always, is the community.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: If you're asking about honor, no, I don't think foreign governments get it.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: Uh they all, except for the United States, rush to resume or even double their funding.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: And you can only draw two conclusions.
14:27
SPEAKER_02: I asked, I asked Hillel Noya, the director of UN Watch, about this when he came on my podcast.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: State of the Nation.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: I said, you present all this evidence to them about where their money is going, how UNRWA is a Hamas front.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: What do they say?
14:43
SPEAKER_02: Why are they not responsive?
14:45
SPEAKER_02: He said, Well, I can think of a charitable explanation and a non-charitable explanation.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: The charitable explanation is they think that if they pull UNRWA funding, they'll cause instability in Lebanon, in Jordan, and they don't want to rock the boat.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: The non-charitable interpretation is they know that UNRWA exists in order to unwind and unravel Israel.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: And some of their diplomats and civil servants agree with that.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: And so they continue giving money to UNRWA because they know its job is to undo Israel.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: So they see it in he sees it as an intrinsic part of the system that is going to be quite challenging to dismantle, basically, because it's got an agenda.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: Yes, because it's not, you know, a huge it's not a human rights charity or an NGO.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: It is a UN agency.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: It is a UN agency that foreign countries are genuinely committed, genuinely believe, is doing life-saving work in Gaza, even though it is completely complicit and overlaps with Hamas.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: Look, not only were most of the October 7th monsters UNRWA graduates, they're almost all UNRWA aid recipients.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: UNRWA is a welfare agency.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: It takes money from British, Australian, American, Canadian taxpayers and gives it to Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere, and it's giving them the financial safety net that they need in order to focus on terrorism.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: It's atrocious.
16:09
SPEAKER_02: And at some point you have to say, at some point you have to say, look, it is not credible that you do not understand where your money is going.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: You understand where it's going, and it looks like you endorse it.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: So do you think, I mean, obviously today you'd be aware the United States Justice Department has filed charges against Commas terrorists, including Chief Terrorist Sinau, for their roles in October 7 massacre.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: Do you see this as a response to the fact that there were American hostages perched as one of them, as part of this atrocious murder?
16:40
SPEAKER_01: What is this?
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Is this action?
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Is this starting to, they're starting to see what's going on?
16:46
SPEAKER_01: And they're taking, I mean, it talk about 10 months, 11 months later, they're arresting finally these Hamas terrorists, but all there's a whole new crew probably coming up the system.
16:56
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, they're not going to, the United States is not going to arrest Sinhua because Sinhua is in a tunnel somewhere in Gaza, probably under a UN school, surrounded by Israeli hostages as human shields.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Sinhua doesn't care if the US puts him on the sanctions list, just like Sinhua doesn't care that the ICC is trying to get the prosecutor is trying to get an arrest warrant for him, right?
17:16
SPEAKER_02: You and what army?
17:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, he doesn't care about that.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know who should care?
17:22
SPEAKER_02: Hamas's leadership abroad.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: So I've been trying to wake people up and say Hamas is holding hostages for a ransom, and you need to put pressure on the kidnappers and the people who are helping the kidnappers to let them go so that the ransom Israelis end up having to pay is as small as possible.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: It makes no sense that Turkey and Qatar continue to be treated as normal members of the international community by the United States while they are harboring terrorists who took Americans hostage and are executing Americans.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
18:04
SPEAKER_02: They executed Hersh Goldberg Poland, which shows the United States said don't.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: They said we don't care what the United States says.
18:15
SPEAKER_02: You don't scare us.
18:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think they should be scared.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: I think the United States needs to scare them.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: And it starts by going after their leadership in exile, who are sitting in American allied countries.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: And so do you see this move today of at least announcing filing charges against Hamas members inverted commas?
18:38
SPEAKER_01: Do you see that as the start of them trying to, or do you see that as sort of tokenistic and somewhat slow-footed?
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Or do you see that as well?
18:47
SPEAKER_02: I'll be honest and say that I'm not completely uh briefed on the information of the uh the detail related uh steps, but but I'll say any pressure is welcome, but sometimes it's too little too late.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: Uh and there were steps that could have been taken right on October 8th that could have stopped the hostage crisis.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: If Qatar on October 8th had said Hamas, you will release the hostages or else we will arrest your leaders or deport them, those hostages would have been released.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: But they haven't.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: So what's so so what I'm trying to glean is do you think that in your um from your perspective, do you think there is going to be change and action?
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Is there a movement or are we stuck in the same place?
19:34
SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, what we are seeing from the international community is not pressure on Hamas and its backers to let them go.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: It's not leverage because that requires you, as a foreign country, to make difficult decisions about what parts of your relationship with these countries, with which otherwise you're on good terms, you're going to sacrifice for the goal of getting the hostages out.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: And countries haven't been willing to do that.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: Australia hosted just now.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: I think it was the Cuttery foreign minister who came to visit while his country is still hosting the terrorists who are holding these poor people hostage.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: It's much easier to simply pressure Israel to say, pay whatever price you have to pay, as extortionate as it is, however many terrorists you have to let out of jail, even though they will go back into terrorism, however much territory you have to give back to Hamas, even though it will use it to plot on October 7th, just make this problem go away.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: And I'm saying no, that's wrong, because Israel is a Western ally and it needs to be treated as such.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: Because on October 7th, the world's free democracies understood that Hamas is a death cult, that it exists for the sake of war, for the sake of peace, it has to go.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: So how do you negotiate with monsters who value no human life?
20:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they don't value human life.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: It's not seen, it's like we've had this, we've had this before, as you mentioned, you've got the ISIS, you've got other death cults, as you call them.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh, how do you negotiate with?
21:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's almost like uh, you know, it's not taken seriously by them.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: And certainly the internet, it's like we are literally negotiating with somebody that doesn't value what you're putting on the table.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: With great difficulty.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: With great difficulty.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: And the negotiations have been happening not only indirectly, but through Qatar and Egypt.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: And it's not clear whether they're working as mediators or intermediaries on behalf of Hamas because I'm not aware what pressure they have been putting on Hamas to release the hostages.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, can we just take a moment to appreciate how bizarre and surreal it is that we're talking about having to negotiate with kidnappers?
21:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
21:48
SPEAKER_02: And then people have the gold to say, you know, Israel allegedly killed Ismail Haniya in Tehran.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: You shouldn't have killed someone you're negotiating with.
21:58
SPEAKER_02: Excuse me if a school shooter Goes into a school and sprays automatically and kills children and then takes children hostage.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: He kidnaps the children.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: And then as the police are doing a standoff with the hostage taker and negotiating how to get the kids out, a police sniper comes in and takes out one of the hostage takers.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: That's not undermining negotiations, that's fighting against the hostage takers who are holding children.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: So the fact that we're this discussion of negotiations is crazy.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: Now that doesn't mean Israel doesn't have to pursue a deal.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: We have to, unfortunately, because there are only so many hostages we are able to free through military operations to get them out.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: You have to ultimately persuade Hamas to release them.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: But Israel is trying to persuade them to release them through the application of military pressure.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: And we need the rest of the world to persuade them to release them by putting on more financial pressure, cutting off their funding networks, and putting pressure on the countries that still treat Hamas as legitimate.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: And what about like these huge protests in Israel at the moment?
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Do you see that as an effective?
23:10
SPEAKER_01: I understand the rage, the anger, the emotion, the it's an attempt to say to the government, we are not happy with the way that you're handling this and we're going to paralyze the country.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: Is that going to achieve anything?
23:25
SPEAKER_02: It speaks to the incredible angst inside the country.
23:28
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, I think also to the responsibility of Israeli society.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: The government has not done enough to release the hostages because until the hostages are free, it's clearly not enough and more can be done.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
23:42
SPEAKER_02: And people are saying, we don't care what the excuses are, make it happen.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: Find a way.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: People are desperate.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: They're at their wits' end.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: But I don't think the discussion we should be having internationally is how far Israel should capitulate.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: What is the price it needs to pay to terrorists?
24:03
SPEAKER_02: It's it's the question Israel's allies need to be asking, the question Australia needs to be asking, how do we reduce the ransom that the Israelis are going to have to pay in the end?
24:12
SPEAKER_02: And then how do we help them pursue these kidnappers who are threatening to do this again and again?
24:18
SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe the the protests can succeed in pressuring the government to make more concessions and pay a bigger price to get the hostages back.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: Although, as Netanyahu says, the price they are demanding will make us less safe in future and encourage more hostage taking.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: That's an argument I think that deserves to be taken seriously.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Like any hostage situation, that's always the dilemma.
24:44
SPEAKER_02: Of course, because many countries in the West will not negotiate over hostages because they understand that it encourages more hostage taking.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: And Israelis are saying we understand that it will encourage more hostage taking, but we'll deal with the consequences later.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: Let's at least get the hostages out now.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: And what about you?
25:08
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of a lot of pain.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: It speaks to the incredible angst inside the country.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, I think also to the responsibility of Israeli society.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: The government has not done enough to release the hostages because until the hostages are free, it's clearly not enough and more can be done.
25:27
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
25:28
SPEAKER_02: And people are saying, we don't care what the excuses are, make it happen.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: Find a way.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: People are desperate, they're at their wits' end.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: But I don't think the discussion we should be having internationally is how far Israel should capitulate.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: What is the price it needs to pay to terrorists?
25:48
SPEAKER_02: It's it's the question Israel's allies need to be asking, the question Australia needs to be asking, how do we reduce the ransom that the Israelis are going to have to pay in the end?
25:58
SPEAKER_02: And then how do we help them pursue these kidnappers who are threatening to do this again and again?
26:03
SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe the the protests can succeed in pressuring the government to make more concessions and pay a bigger price to get the hostages back.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: Although, as Netanyahu says, the price they are demanding will make us less safe in future and encourage more hostage taking.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: That's an argument I think that deserves to be taken seriously.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Like any hostage situation, that's always the dilemma.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: Of course, because many countries in the West will not negotiate over hostages because they understand that it encourages more hostage taking.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: And Israelis are saying we understand that it will encourage more hostage taking, but we'll deal with the consequences later.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: Let's at least get the hostages out now.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: More security, certainly in the south.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm here visiting Australia.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: It's trying to raise money for the kibbutzim in the south to help them rebuild.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: Hey, people don't actually want to go back.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: They don't want to go back because they're traumatized.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: If those kibbutzim are going to be rebuilt, they need fresh blood from the rest of the country.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: And for that to happen, they need to be convinced that it's safe to live there.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: I went and I spoke to hostage families.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: I said, What do you need to go back?
27:17
SPEAKER_02: They said, first of all, no more Hamas.
27:19
SPEAKER_02: First of all, the hostages back, and then no more Hamas because we want to bring them home.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: And home means back to the beds from which they were kidnapped.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, how can you tell me go sleep in that bed if Hamas is my neighbor?
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, to be honest, that's completely sensible and rational.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: And I understand that.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's as somebody in the diaspora, obviously, as you say, we're we're removed and we can resonate, but you're right, we're not living under direct threat.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: But there's a sense that that has a rational perspective.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: It changes the tenor, what you're saying, and the temperature in Israel, literally, of the way people are feeling, so that it's not, they don't feel safe, which is understandable.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: So, really, the challenge is if they don't feel safe, mind you, I must say I'm amazed at how many missions there are from the diaspora to Israel and how many people are going.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people I know, we literally un unequivocally with a sense of I've personally met most of these solidarity missions.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you have, yeah.
28:16
SPEAKER_02: Australia.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, we've, I mean, I've done a few, but but the ones that are recent, I think it's just an extraordinary sense of just to go and to make them feel like they're supported financially, emotionally.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: But that's interesting.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: And that, you know, I was reading a stat that said, you know, the increase and influx in people coming to Israel is quite dramatic at this time.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Do you find that extraordinary in the context of the fear that the locals have?
28:45
SPEAKER_01: And yet people from outside are coming and saying, we'll come anyway.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Hamas thought that it was going to break Israel's spirit.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: And in some ways, in some ways, it strengthened it.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: And we see people flooding to the country.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: October 7th, you had, you know, planes where people were just sitting on the floor because they were just, you know, reservists rushing to get back home from their vacation.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: People wanted to come back and fight.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: And you see an uptick in applications for Aliyah, which are partly people, you know, fearful of anti-Semitism, but also this sense of identification and solidarity and an understanding of home is where the heart is, and they worked out where their broken hearts are.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: I think also in the diaspora, everybody's lived with that sense of that, that safety net of Israel.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: And so we've all lived with that sense that, oh, well, we could always go to Israel.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: All of us, everyone, in every country.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: I know.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: There's a sense of that's that's where you go where things get rough on the outside.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: But Israel needs to be made safe.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh correct.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: So that's the diaspora's job is to make the world safe for Israel, so Israel can make the world safe for the Jews.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: And that dynamic is shifting, and it's a fascinating time in history.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: What about for you personally?
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Are you ever afraid?
30:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what you're you're really seeing it all, everything, at the coal face, so to speak.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: How are you finding that?
30:09
SPEAKER_01: And how do you deal with your own fear around that?
30:13
SPEAKER_02: You know, thankfully for me, I am not a soldier, I'm not in combat.
30:19
SPEAKER_02: There are people my age who have been in military service, reserve duty since the beginning of this war, conducting the most incredible uh counterterrorism missions, putting their lives in danger.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh, joining me on this tour with JNF Australia is a young captain from a search and rescue squadron.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: She's only 25, and she's flown helicopter into Gaza to rescue wounded soldiers.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: She was, in fact, the pilot who flew the helicopter that rescued the first hostages back in November.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: So there are people who are really putting their lives on the line and have reasons to fear.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: And uh, when the most dangerous thing that I encounter is a hostile interviewer, then that's what everyone's looking for.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what?
31:10
SPEAKER_01: It seems to me that you handle them with uh grace and humor.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: In some ways, you just don't allow them to get under your skin.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, you're traveling the world and you're showing strength and courage and you're you're speaking very publicly, and you've been obviously you've had conflict in your past and uh with regards to the racial, you know, to the uh community there in Israel, and you have different perspectives to some and not to others.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: That's sort of that's part of a healthy democracy, yeah.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't mean that you know you don't always feel the support that you might need.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, I've actually felt enveloped in a lot of love and support from the Jewish community and allies.
31:52
SPEAKER_02: And there are people who will come after me and call me a war criminal or a Nazi or a genocidal baby killer or whatever.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: And then I see the reception that I get when I visit Jewish communities in Australia, Canada, America, and the gratitude.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's weird for me to say it, but but gratitude that people express to me for standing up and speaking out.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: And I remember what we're fighting for.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: Um and I remember that we're the good guys and uh we need to find.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, you can see by your sold-out events all over Australia, people are very supportive and very grateful that you have made the effort to come all the way and to actually continue the conversation.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think you've been a pillar of strength, particularly at this time when you know, I know you attended the Bondo Beach vigil and you have been very open to our community.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: And as I said, hopefully while you're here, you feel it's a home because I know that when you know what they say when you're a Jewish person and you land wherever you land, there's always open arms to greet you.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: I hope you feel that in Australia.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh, because absolutely open open arms lunging at me for selfies.
33:05
SPEAKER_05: That's really funny.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: But but but on a serious note, that that sense of Jewish solidarity, of being there for each other in tough times, we're really feeling it since October 7th.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: And that spirit has to continue, even when, God willing, uh, this immediate crisis calms down uh with the eventual, please God may be immediate release of the hostages.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: And finally, do you see hope?
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Do you see resolution?
33:31
SPEAKER_01: Are you optimistic?
33:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm realistic.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm realistic that Israel faces daunting existential challenges.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: We're surrounded by the Iranian regime and its proxy armies that are attacking us on seven fronts.
33:45
SPEAKER_02: And I'm realistic that things are going in the wrong direction internationally.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: Israel has made great progress in dismantling Hamas, in degrading Hezbollah, but the Iranian regime is racing ahead towards nuclear weapons with nothing stopping it from flooding Yemen and Lebanon with uh long-range precision ballistic missiles.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: And we need to see pushback against that.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: Not just countries stepping in to intercept missiles when they're fired at Israel, but doing something about the Iranian strategy of surrounding Israel with a ring of fire.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: Because if that Iranian aggression is allowed to continue, it'll only make the Middle East and the rest of the world far less safe.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: And just with the rise of anti-Semitism and the emerging and the complete insane dystopian naivety of some of the people that we're seeing who seem to support, even in the face of this travesty of what's happened this week.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: There's still that protesting in New York yesterday.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: A lot of the protesters.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: And and it's just mind-blowing.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Do you think there is any waking up whatsoever on that side of the fence or or not?
34:57
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think that the more extreme the protests get, the more people understand that you know, these people aren't calling for a ceasefire.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: They're not calling for peace, they're calling for terrorism.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: Now we need people to help understand their iconography, so to speak, to understand what intifada means, that it means suicide bombings, to understand that the upside-down red triangle is the new Nazi swastika, that it's a call for targeted political violence against Jews and Israelis.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but this is terrifying.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: And I hope that well-meaning people who just want peace and thought that by siding with the protest, they're taking the side of just making the violence go away, understand that that's not what this movement is about.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: It is a movement that glorifies violence and sees it as cleansing and redemptive, and that this is a serious extremism problem that needs to be stamped out.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: So, no, it gives me no comfort to say I told you so.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: But we're still telling you.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: We're still, yeah.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: And and to be honest, on uh the other thing that's very pivotal in what you've just said is critical, is the media war, the social media strategy, the TikTok, the driving of these forces, and ensuring that there are comparable educational, like basically people like you and varying, you know, journalists going out and telling people what is going on beyond the protest raging strategy.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's something that I mean, we haven't been doing as well as we could, let's be honest, but that's because there's a lot fewer of uh of uh the Jewish community.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: Do you think it's a numbers game or do you think it's a strategy game?
36:42
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's definitely a numbers game, but that doesn't excuse the fact that there are far too many people who have not been using the influence and voice that they have.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: Either because they didn't understand the scope of the threat or because they felt personally intimidated and just wanted to keep out of it.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: I think the Jewish community has only just started fighting back against this movement of hate and terrorism.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: And that is a fight back, a peaceful fight back that I'm trying to encourage, to encourage Jewish communities to stand up for themselves and to stand up for their countries.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: The other side is standing up against their countries, against liberal and democratic values.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: And I'm saying stand up for your countries, help them hold on to sanity, help them hold on to those alliances.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: So, what I've been doing with the Israeli citizen spokesperson's office that I set up after I finished my official position.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: And I would encourage all of your viewers to follow it.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: If you are already following me on Instagram or Twitter, then you'll see the handles in the bio.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: Is we have a briefing every single day with a team of other citizen spokespeople.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: So this is still running in Israel while I'm here in Australia.
37:58
SPEAKER_02: Doing essentially a press conference to the diaspora where we tell supporters, here's the information that we think you need to know.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: Here are the sound bites and talking points we think you need to know.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: So when you find yourself in an argument or a conversation, or when you see an opportunity for an argument or conversation with a friend or a neighbor or a colleague, you'll have the words and the information at the tip of your tongue and the confidence.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we're outnumbered, but that's no excuse for us not using all the numbers we have.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: Love Deb.