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SMNTY Classics: Imagining Forgiveness · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stuff I Never told you Production by
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Heart Radio, and today we are bringing back an episode
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: we did a couple of years ago about forgiveness, and
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: I wanted to bring this one back because I've had
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: several conversations lately with friends about it and it's been
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: fascinating to me having these discussions with them and having
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I just remember doing this episode and it being really
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: enlightening to me because at the time I was struggling
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: with stuff with my dad and I was like, well,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: it felt like I had to forgive, But then since then,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I have forgiven and it did feel like amazing. But
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: that is obviously not something you owe anybody, and that
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: is one of the things this episode really drove home
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: And I appreciated that it was this is about you
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: and what feels good to you or feels right to you.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: But it was just fascinating to me that I've had
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: at least three conversations about forgiveness in less than a
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: month that were intense and in depth. So I wanted
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: to bring back this classic episode. Please enjoy.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I've never told you a protection of iHeartRadio's how stuff works. Today,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: we're actually tackling something that I tried to do a
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: year ago. I started working on this outline a year
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: ago and was so confused, used and torn about a
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: lot of things that were happening in my life. And uh,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: this whole idea of what we're talking about today, forgiveness, right,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: So it's been sitting in our folder for over a year.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been there since I've even started.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would like start on it and then get
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: frustrated and go away from it. But it has been
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: on my mind a lot lately, and we did want
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: to talk about forgiveness today, especially since we're in this
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: holiday's season as we recorded, and it's supposed to be
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: purportedly a time of forgiveness.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Oh. I thought, that's just when you tell people things,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: you know, like the love actually bit.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Oh God, don't talk to me about love. Actually no,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I really don't know that much about love actually, other
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: than Alan Rickman was a cheater.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: So they all confess whatever the truths are. And yeah,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: you're supposed to be honest. Okay, that's where the whole
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: like signage.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Right, right, Like Hey, I know you're.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Married to my best friend, but hey, I love it.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: We talked about that forever ago, and we actually got
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: all our response. People have strong opinions about that movie.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: They do.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I like it.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Apparently a lot of people do like it.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: No, you know, as long.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: As you can recognize some problematic things, that's fine all comedies. Yeah, true,
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: later episode, but for this one trigger warning before we
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: get started, for brief mentions of rape and sexual assault
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: and domestic violence, but very brief. We're just going to
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: talk about how that can play into forgiveness. And I'm
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: someone who I've discovered is terrible at forgiveness.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: I have a huge tolerance.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: You can do a lot of things before I say,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: you know what, You've done enough, and then I like
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: wipe my hands of you.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: I cannot forgive you. And so I have never actually.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Been to the point of granting forgiveness. And I am
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: at the point now where I do want to. I'm
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: in the stage that I want to, but I have
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: an emotional block around it. Like even if mentally I
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: think you know what, I'm okay, I want to move on,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: there's something that I can't, like go up emotionally, so
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: that's kind of where I am. And a year ago
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I was running on the beltline, which is one of
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: my favorite things, and the song It's Quiet Uptown from
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Hamilton came on. If you've never heard that song, it's
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: about Hamilton and his wife Eliza and the idea of
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: forgiveness because he cheated on her. And I know a
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: lot of people are going to write in that we
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: didn't mention that in our political scandal episode.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: It's been talked about a lot, but if you guys
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: want us.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: To talk about it, I happily, happily will I love Hamilton.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: But anyway, I've heard that song one hundreds of times,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: probably not even exaggeration one hundred times, but that time
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  Speaker 2: something about it stopped me in my tracks and I
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: started crying because of this idea of forgiveness and the
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: power of it, and something just clicked and it's ever
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: since then, it's just kind of been in the back
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: of my brain. And I do want to say before
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: we get into this, forgiveness is deeply, deeply, deeply personal.
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  Speaker 2: We are not in the business of telling anyone that
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  Speaker 2: they should forgive someone, and no one else should be either.
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  Speaker 3: There's a long history of women being.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Gaslighted to forgive, or that concept of forgiveness being weaponized
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: against women, and we are going to touch on that,
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  Speaker 2: but I just want to say I think forgiveness has
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: gotten wrapped up in it's a good thing to do,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: and therefore you should do it. There are benefits to it,
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  Speaker 2: but you really don't have to if you don't want to,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: and in fact, doing so can be detrimental. All right,
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  Speaker 2: So let's start with some basics from the Greater Good magazine.
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  Speaker 2: Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: deserve your forgiveness. And that's key because I used to
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: get myself in an unhealth the logic trap of deserve.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: Oh they are not the person deserved it.
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  Speaker 2: But it's not about them and what they do or
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: do not deserve. It is about you and what you want,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: which is actually a great segue into what forgiveness isn't.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: It does not mean forgetting or minimizing, or excusing or condoning.
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  Speaker 2: It does not mean reconciliation or accepting continued wrongdoing, and
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: it doesn't free the other party from being accountable to
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: the law. It is about letting go of negative emotions
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: that the forgiver wants to let go self. Forgiveness can
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: also be extremely liberating, extremely.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and confusing. Forgiveness and reconciliation is common and inaccurate.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Waiting for someone else to reconcile is disempowering, and some
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: things can't be paid back, it cannot be reconciled. Equating
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: forgiveness with reconciliation would trap someone in that situation in
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: a disruptive state of unforgiveness. Forgiveness is also not the
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: only path to closure of moving on. Forgiving when you're
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: not ready is really detrimental and forgivens. This is generally
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: understood to hinge on two pieces of information, relationship value
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: of the wrongdoer and probability of future wrongdoings.
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  Speaker 3: And our culture.
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  Speaker 2: Seems to be completely torn when it comes to forgiveness.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen it as being foolish, are we submissive?
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I've seen it on the opposite end, being called something
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: like your duty. It's wrapped up in religion and philosophy
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: in some cases, in relationships and politics. At times, we
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: may feel pressure from other people to forgive because it's
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: the right thing to do, in quotes that it would
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: doing so would make you a good person. And at
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: the same time, we have so many sayings about forgiveness
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: to airs to be human, to forgive is divine, To
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: understand all is to forgive all. It just seems we're
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: all very conflicted about this idea forgiveness. A study conducted
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: by psychologists Charlotte van Eyen Vitfilit found that asking participants
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: to remember an instance when someone had offended, hurt, or
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: mistreated them resulted in a whole range of physical responses
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: from increased heart rate, blood pressure, muscle tension, and sweating.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: People described the experience as unpleasant. It made them angry,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: It made them sad, It made them feel like they
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: had less control. When they were asked to imagine forgiving
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: their offender, these physical responses relaxed.
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  Speaker 3: A survey of fifteen.
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  Speaker 2: Hundred Americans about how much they practiced forgiveness revealed that
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: middle aged and older people forgave at higher rates when
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: compared to their younger counterparts, and the researchers found a
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: relationship between forgiveness and increased mental health and older respondents.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: So, grudges have been linked with increased risk of cardiovascial
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  Speaker 1: disease and in various ways can compromise our immune systems.
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  Speaker 1: Grudges can impact future relationships and diminished ability to enjoy
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  Speaker 1: the present. Forgiveness is important in terms of emotional and
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  Speaker 1: disengaging from trauma.
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  Speaker 3: Forgiving is often emotion and painful.
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  Speaker 2: A twenty sixteen study divided a group of one hundred
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  Speaker 2: and thirty five students who had recently experienced bullying into
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: three scenario groups, forgiveness, revenge, and avoidance. The researchers found
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  Speaker 2: that both the forgiveness and avoidance groups didn't feel stronger,
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  Speaker 2: but they did experience a decrease in negative emotions during
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: the course of the experiment. The revenge group felt a
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: decrease in empowerment, ability to cope, and it self esteem. However,
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  Speaker 2: the forgiveness group experienced the most stress.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: This seems to demonstrate just.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: How difficult and stressful that the act of forgiveness is,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: and that healing takes time. Forgiveness may be better in
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: the long run, but in the short term it's more
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: painful than avoidance or revenge. The researcher suggested that perhaps
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: a mixed approach is best avoidance until long enough time
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  Speaker 2: has passed. Distances passed, then should you so desire forgiveness
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  Speaker 2: that smart.
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  Speaker 1: Another study found that in the context of relationships, people
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: who are more likely to pursue revenge instead of forgiveness
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: or more likely to go through negative consequences and conflict. Ultimately,
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  Speaker 1: the takeaway was it's really beneficial to have tools and
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: strategies ready to deal with the rough times. One of
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  Speaker 1: these things can be forgiveness. An analysis of seventeen studies
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  Speaker 1: around relationships and forgiveness found that after the betrayal of
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: a partner, the relationship goals often change, becoming more about
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: evening the score, winning arguments, and other competitive things like that.
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  Speaker 1: So forgiveness is suggested as a way to return to
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: more balanced relationship.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, we're not telling anybody to forgive if
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: they don't want to, and of course people are complicated.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Some researchers suggests people that are generally happier can more
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: easily forgive and report higher levels of happiness. When people
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: are feeling better about their transgressor like after an apology
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: or some type of physical restitution. They usually experience a
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: decrease in physical arousal meaning like symptoms, high blood pressure,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that, which makes them more likely to forgive. However,
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: we know abusers use this to continue cycles of abuse.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so something to keep an eye on.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely a manipulative tactic. Other studies have found
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: decreased stress levels and positive health benefits just when adopting
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: a forgiving attitude. Since stress has a cumulative effect, these
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: benefits were more pronounced in older folks.
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  Speaker 2: Some studies suggest that the part of the brain associated
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: with forgiveness is the limbic system, not the part of
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: the brain associated with reasoned judgment as previously thought. The
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: act of forgiveness has long been thought to be an
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: emotional one, and it is, but recent studies indicate it
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: is a cognitive one as well. Therefore, experts recommend cognitive
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: reframing if you're looking to forgive. Evolutionarily, revenge is easier
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: than forgiveness. The easiest way to deal with someone who
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: would harm you is to avoid them or to hit back.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: According to psychologists, revenge is unique in that it is
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: motivated by hate, which makes it different than anger. And
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: the belief that just by existing someone is doing you harm.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Revenge is often disproportionate to the original act that inspired
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: the revenge.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: That's so many movies.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: I know.
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  Speaker 2: I was about to say I had to write a
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: paper on this in French in college about how why
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: is it most of our action movies start with the
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: main character's wife getting murdered and then he kills everyone everywhere, right,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: and it's like.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: So violent and over the top.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was about to talk about never mind because
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: it's too many, because there was like I was thinking
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: about The Joker, but I don't want to say anything
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: that could be a spoiler for those who haven't seen
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: it or want to see it. All of that. But yeah, yeah,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: kind of. I think everybody knows that there's always a backstory.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: That's all in the creation of Batman alone. We know
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: that backstory, right, revenges.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I have to say, I get that peal of revenge stories,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: but they do make me kind of uncomfortable. Yeah, it's
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: like it's something about them as always sort of unsettled me.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're dark. I guess they're very dark. Yeah for sure. Yeah,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: so let's talk about the how to forgive, right, psychologist
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Robert Enwright proposed that forgiveness has four steps, recognizing the anger,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: deciding to forgive, building up compassion for the wrong doer,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: and then letting go of negative emotions. Being specific really helped.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: You can only really forgive for what people have done
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: to you.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and reading that was helpful for me because the
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: example they gave is if you were as a child
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: you witnessed your say, father abuse your mother, you can't
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: forgive him for doing that. You can forgive him for
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: the pain and fear and just hurt that he caused you.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: But it has to be specific to what happened to you.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: So if you are the abused, yes, you are the
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: one to forgive, right. Yeah, it's a bit different when
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: it comes to forgiving yourself self forgiveness. Accepting responsibility is important,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: but holding onto shame and guilt for too long isn't helpful.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: The first step is similar or recognizing that you are
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: in the wrong and your actions caused pain. Then you
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: dig a bit deeper, identifying why it happened and what
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: was in your control and what wasn't in your control.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Pinpoint lessons you learned and how you can avoid a
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: similar situation.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: In the future.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: When you've taken these steps forgive yourself allowed or on paper,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: then if another party is involved, apologize. We're going to
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: get more into apology later, but you apologize genuinely and
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: not expecting anything from the other person, and then take
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: steps to make things right. If you're looking to forgive
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: but struggling, there are support groups and counseling out there
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: that can help. Some other tips are practicing empathy, reflecting
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: on times you've hurt others and what was going on
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: in your head when you did right in your journal
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: if you have a journal. If you don't, I recommend
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: getting one or meditation. Also, if you can't forgive, patience,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: be patient. It is hard and it shakes time.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again we're not saying that you have to Yep,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: this is completely based on you. And also if, and
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: this is a big if the wrong doer shows no
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: signs of changing, it is toxics. It is an unhealthy
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: relationship and it will always be unhealthy.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, distance from someone like that. You can still forgive
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: if you would like to, but distance is key.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: That person will keep hurting you.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Because you're forgiving doesn't mean you have to repeat the harm.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: That's happening to you.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And we did want to look specifically at
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: some some studies around women and forgiveness. But first we
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: have a quick break for word from a sponsor and
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: we're back, Thank you sponsor.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Okay. So, there actually have been a.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: Lot of studies looking into this. One of them is
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: from twenty eleven. It's a study from the University of
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: the Basque Country and it looked into gender differences and
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: forgiveness and the study found that women are better at forgiving.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: The study authors suspect that women are more empathetic than men.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: That was one of the reasons they gave, which is
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: key when it comes to forgiveness. Women, especially older women,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: seem to reap more of the benefits of forgiveness as well.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Even women who reported feeling that they themselves were unforgiven,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: they also felt those benefits.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I think holding on the things is just tiring. That's
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: what I've learned as I'm getting older, and I'm like,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: oh God, I'm just tired of being angry at you.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: So one study showed that forgiveness can make men feel weak,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: and that more forgiving men suffer from higher levels of
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: depression as compared to less forgiving men self. Forgiving men
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: fared better, but forgiving others didn't show the same positive link.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: The scientists behind the study believe that because forgiveness is
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: seen as a more feminine thing, it is painted as
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: weak and in general, for a variety of reasons, men
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: are less forgiving than women when.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: It comes to sexual abuse against women. There are a
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: lot of misconceptions that to forgive means that you don't
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: report sexual assault, or that if you do, you haven't
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: forgiven the person, or that forgiving someone means that.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: You're totally cool with them.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: None of these things are true, and pressing women to
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: forgive an abuser who is unrepetent and still in their
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: lives is dangerous. Sharon Lamb's essay Women Abuse and Forgiveness
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: a Special Case argues that women are a special class
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: of victims impossible forgivers, and that women quote may have
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: some particular reasons not to forgive, and she goes on
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: to ask why is it that we have so much
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: trouble with.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: The woman who will not forgive?
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Janis Hawkins's essay The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Psychoanalytic and cultural perspectives on forgiveness also digs into the
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: feminism of forgiveness and goes out of her way to
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: make the point that forgiveness is neither good or bad.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: She writes, as oppressed groups gain the strength to speak
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: up and claim new rights, including their right to disengage
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: abusive relationships, the powerful rediscover the salutary virtue of forgiveness. Basically,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: forgiveness benefits them for hurting other people.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Right, and this brings us to gaslighting.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Women are frequently made to feel guilty if they don't forgive.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: Scorned, bitter cold.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: These are ways to stigmatize unforgiving women and pressure them
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: to forgive. It's another way of dismissing women as emotional
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: and invalidating their probably completely legitimate reactions. It flips the
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: story so that the woman is to blame. She's just bitter, overreacting, irrational,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: sensitive drama queen petty. It is on her. Any negative
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: emotions she's experiencing are her fault. She should be the
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: better person and forgive again. Forgiving or not forgiving. It's
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: the choice, very personal one.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So we've seen examples with the Kavanaugh case in
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: itself that like it's so long ago, he was just
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: a kid. Why can't you let that go? You're just
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: being petty? Is so absurd that they're that more likely
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: to call her names rather than keep accountability for those
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: who were responsible for the action.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: When Selma Hayek wrote in The New York Times about
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: her reasons for not speaking up about Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons she gave was that she was
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: proud of her capacity for forgiveness. And this essay was
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: when she was sort of being like, this is why
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: I didn't do it, And I know that these are
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I should have or I not should have, But it
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: was her looking back on why she.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Didn't, right, And that makes perfect sense. Yeah. So some
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: arguments put forth that for some women trying to distance
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: themselves from the angry feminist stereo type, they might be
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: more forgiving, which we know that's always a really bad negative.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: A similar argument can has been made that black people
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: are asked and expected to forgive white racist without ever
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: getting so much as an apology or even recognition, which
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: we can talk about with the slavery and just people
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: being like, why you keep bringing that up, and it's like,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: what the hell y'all? Yeah, really, why because it's important
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: and we need to acknowledge the trauma that it has
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: caused and it still continues to cause. So let's talk
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: about religion because I think that's one of the big
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: things where we talk about forgiveness. Yes, there's sixty two
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: passages in the Bible that include the word forgive, and
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: then there's twenty seven passages that contain the word forgiveness.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: That is a lot, fair a lot.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Some religions do connect forgiveness with being a good person,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: especially for women. There have been multiple instances of numerous
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: women reporting sexual abuse by church leaders to other church
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: leaders and being told they must forgive to get into heaven,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: and by forgive they meant don't tell anybody. Right, in
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: some interpretations of Christianity, people can't forgive it all.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Only God can forgive. So there's a lot going on there.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of pressures here around this idea
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: of forgiveness.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: I think it's just all.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Idea in it self forgiveness and what it's supposed to do,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: and it is kind of absolving people who have committed
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: sins essentially, and I think it is a good balance
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: to understand what is right for you.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and we do have a little bit more
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: about that, but first we have one more quick break
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: for word from our sponsor.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: And we're back. Thank you sponsor.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: So I guess one of the biggest takeaways for me
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: is that I am going to reframe how I think
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: about forgiveness. We're going to make it all about me,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: because in this case, I am the wrong and I'm
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: just gonna think of it almost like it has nothing
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: to do with that person. If you are the ones
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: seeking forgiveness, which can mean just apologizing and leaving the
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: other person the hell alone, make it all about them.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: And yeah, a few situations are so black and white,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: it's been for me. Everybody has such a specific story
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: and it's complex in its own way, so it's hard
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: to give really good specific advice. But here are some
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: general ideas that might help, and a quick note about
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: how to apologize. A good apology can open up a
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: dialogue and is the beginnings of re establishing trust, or
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: it can be. It entails that you show remorse, you
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: acknowledge that you caused hurt. It has to be sincere
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: and not flip it around to make it the other
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: person's fault, like it was just a joke.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry you felt hurt.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: I think that's probably one of the biggest sins when
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: it comes to apologies is that you make excuses.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: And I've done it too. You make excuses for your
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: behavior and make it like the other person was overreact.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Right, So if you're apologizing with it but yes, don't
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: do that, or if you're apologizing I'm sorry you right,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: but you statements, go ahead and stop.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's better.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: A short apology is better than any kind of long
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: winded here's my excuse. A good apology also involves making amends,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: providing something actionable to show you're serious, putting yourself in
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: the other person's shoes, and honestly trying to understand why
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: they were hurt. Then offer steps to make sure that
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: whatever it was doesn't happen again. Yes, do not make
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: it about you. Apologies also got to be said, are
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: sometimes hurtful and unwelcome. So if you're doing it to
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: make yourself feel better, that is not a good apology.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: And also remember impact matters more than intention. I think
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of people get caught in that that trap
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: as well, and I can and have written a paper
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: on this.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: My infamous essay about doing the dishes.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: It was about a lot more than that, but I
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: use the dishes as a case study.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: Nice I really don't like doing dishes. I really really don't.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: And then I've kind of noticed in my life I
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: feel like some people blame me for things, and I'm
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: not sure what they are. So it's hard to apologize,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: or I'm not even sure that I need to apologize.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: But this is a time when I need to remember
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: all of the episodes where we have sung the praises
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: of communication.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, always talk to each other yep. When one of
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Bill Cosby's alleged victims was asked by Anderson Cooper, can
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: you forget something like this? Her response was, I forgave
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Bill Cosby years ago for me. When you hold onto
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: resentment for someone like that, it's not hurting them, it's
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: only hurting you. And I think that's very valid for
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: all of us. I think I've felt the same way,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure you have to when you have been
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: a victim from someone that you may never see again, yep,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: that you have to forgive, maybe not even just forgive,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: but let it go. Yeah, And that's the best you
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: can do for yourself.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's recently. It came up in one
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: of my therapy sessions lately and she said there's a
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: quote like not forgiving is like drinking poison and expecting
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: the other person to die, or not not forgiving but
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: not letting go, because yeah, they probably in some cases
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: at least they don't care.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: It's not anything to them, right.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: It is difficult, though it's easier said thanne. Re understand that,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: And I still have questions around forgiveness. I got caught
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: up in this whole idea of some things may just
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: truly be unforgivable. But I do think I want to forgive.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: I think I'm in that stage. But before that I can,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I have to deal with a lot of the fallout
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: that I've been avoiding for so long. I think that's
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: the emotional block is that I've just been avoiding. And
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: apparently this is an idea that's been on my brain
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: for a very long time because one of my favorite
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: things I've written, the D and D character that I
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: played to finish out the end of the story.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I like that you were just having like rings on
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: across our death.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: To see the miniature. I have many of her.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: It's all about forgiveness or not forgiving, and revenge and redemption,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: and it's interesting to see how it's evolved as I've
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: continued to write it. But that is about what we
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: have to say on forgiveness today. We would love to
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: hear from listeners any wisdom's truths or just stories they
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: have about forgiveness or not forgiveness, and we have heard
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: from some listeners already that we would like to read
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: here now. Marie wrote, I was super excited when I
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: saw you doing spooky episodes for October, especially the Female
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Monsters episode. I just want to tell you about one
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: of my favorite books, which not only features a badass
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: monster eating primordial goddess who very often refers to herself
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: as a monster as a protagonist, but she's also got
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: a female romantic interest. The book is called The One
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Who Eats Monsters by Casey Matthews.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: And it's an incredible book.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: As a recently out lesbian, I've been trying to consume
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: as much LGBTQ plus fiction as possible, mostly sci fi
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: fantasy literature involving lesbians. I've had to scour the internet
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: and bookstores to get my fix, and I've noticed that
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: there's definitely been an increase in the amount of representation
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: in fiction, especially among protagonists. Anyway, I just want to
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: tell you all about my favorite book. I'd love it
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: if you did an episode on queer literature or badass
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: lesbians in literature.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: We would love that too.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: And one of the reasons I wanted to read this
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: is listeners, if you've got some examples, send them our way.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I definitely have some I could contribute as well. And
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: then we have a letter from Marissa. My friend Marissa.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Out you like that?
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, but she wrote this and I responded
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: like I do to any listener, as if I didn't
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: know her. So I hope you enjoyed that, MRSA. She wrote,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: I have to throw my two cents in on my
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: experience with the opioid crisis. First, my background is a
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: traveling er nurse. At this point in my career, I've
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: worked in six different states Georgia, Massachusetts, California, Alasta, Colorado,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: and Maine as a medical professional in the trenches of
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: this opioid epidemic. I can assure you this is truly
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: a problem everywhere. However, there is one er assignment that
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: stands out. This community was being devastated by heroin. Every
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: night we had at least a handful of od's overdoses.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: This was a big seventy five bed er. Narcan had
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: to be so readily available that there were internasal narcan
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: rapid response boxes installed on the walls and strategic locations
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: all around the er. For instance, they had a box
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: and triage due to so many people being dropped off
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: in front with od's not breathing. All of the police,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: firefighters and ems carried narcan and knew how to use it.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I would like to share a little narcan knowledge with you. First,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: you must know what a drug half life is, the
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: time it takes the drug concentration to reach fifty percent
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: less than the starting dose in the body. I don't
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: want to get too technical, but essentially, heroin works longer
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: than the antidote narcannaloxone. Narcan brings them out of their
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: high fast, and many times these slumped over lifeless ODS
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: would reanimate rather violently and combatively. It's hard to rationalize
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: with an addict who's come violently out of their high
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: to stay there recommended four hours after narcan. So essentially
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to let anyone out there that has to
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: administered narkan know to keep watching your friend or loved one.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: The half life of narcan is shorter than that of heroin,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: so essentially you can be revived from the brink of
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: an od death. But if you leave too soon or
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: not watch can get into the same situation again. The
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: drug wave could still crash over you and take you under,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: so continue to watch someone for several hours after administering narkan. Also,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Narcan naloxone emergency kits are available at almost every pharmacy
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: without a prescription. If you're using, please have this safety
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: plan in place. Go to your nearest pharmacy and get
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: an emergency kit. Make sure those around you while you're
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: using know where the narcan is and how to use it.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Call nine one one if the person is not breathing.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Those that have allergy reactions carry EpiPens epinephrine. If you're using,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: you should carry narcan. Safe practice is all I want
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: to preach. Keep everything clean and have a safety plan.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Enough people have died. This epidemic is destroying families. Please
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: don't let it take your life. Wow, that's a lot
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: of good information. I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: know that either. So thanks Marissa for our share fighting.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the good fight is a nurse. Thank you so
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: much for what you're doing.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and thanks for writing in, taking the time and
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: sharing that knowledge. And we would love to hear from
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: other listeners. Thanks to these two for writing in. If
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: you would like to write to us, you can Our
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: You can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Podcast or on Instagram at Stuff We'll Never Told You.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, Hey yy,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Owner told you
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: the protection of iHeartRadio's how Stuff Works. For more podcasts
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit our heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.