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Christianity and Marginalized People: Part 6 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andy and Samantha, and welcome to Stephane
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never told your production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And welcome to our series on Christianity. We're just gonna
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: leave it at that. We are now on part six
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: of Christianity, Religious Trauma and the Marginalized Community aka Western
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Christianity and how it affects the Marginalized People, and so
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: many more titles that I've given it at this point.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: But yeah, the series just keeps growing. Every time I
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: think I'm going to be talking about two or three
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: things in a series, it ends up being just one thing.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: And that's where we are today once again. But before
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: we start, there is content warning. We are talking about
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: religious trauma, sickness, domestic violence, and divorce. I don't know,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: divorce can be a sticky subject, especially if you're going
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: through one or you're going through bad parts in your
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: marriage and you don't want to hear about it. We're
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: talking all about divorce today, So go ahead and skip
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: this one, just so you know. And as a quick review, Annie,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: because I know I've been stringing you along in this
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: entire series. As I'm like, hey, we'll do this is
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: another day or longer than I thought let's just do
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: this quick review. We've talked about women in Western Christian
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: communities and traditions, religious trauma, which is you know, present
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: all throughout, the misogyny that heavily influences this culture, the
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: toxicity of purity culture, which also seems to be a
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: whole topic in every single one of our episodes, sexual
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: abuse in Southern Baptist Convention, Courting marriage and motherhood, which
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: was a fun one. And today we are continuing down
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: that look of relationships, I guess, with a look at
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Western Christianity and divorce. And right now we are going
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: to talk pretty in depth about divorce. Some of it
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: doesn't really have to do with religion. We're just kind
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: of talking about so the process and some of the
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: conversations and statistics. This is mainly applied to the United States,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: because I know, and we want to come back because
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: we had a fun conversation, and I say fun in
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: that we were both like, huh, I wonder what this is?
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: What this is about? How to get a divorce?
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I didn't know that there were all these
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: stipulations that you can't just get a divorce.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Well, so we're going to talk about the no fault
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: divorce in a minute. Apparently there's other things that have
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: been put in place for a while, but it's about
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: how people can test things and how it gets messy.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: So and different states have different rules and different belief systems,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: and different kind of communities in denominations also have their
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: own rules. Yeah, but all of that, and then different
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: countries have their own rules as well. So we're centering
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: this around the United States. And yes, eventually it does
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: come back to how Christianity handles divorce as well, so
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: I promise this all applies. So before we start, I
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: kind of wanted to talk about my personal experience about
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: divorce in my church that I grew up with, because
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: this is a very personal subject growing up very religious
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: and coming out of religion as I knew it. And
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I've seen the emails that y'all have been sending about this.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I know people have been connecting
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: with what I've been saying, as well as people who
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: are still involved in the church and finding their own path,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: and it's beautiful. Thank you for those messages. But yeah,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I kind of want to talk about what I experienced,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: and again, my church is a little different. It's not
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: big and that is part of the Southern Baptist Convention.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: It's not a part of the Presbyterian Churches. It's not
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: a part of any of those denominations. It kind of
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: has an independent feel about it and it's very local.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: So this experience can be unique in that way. But
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I feel like overall, especially when it comes to old
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: school way of thinking and when we talk about the
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: traveling preachers and all of that, this is kind of
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: that circuit that this is the influence that fell onto
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: my community, like that that hell five brimstone level. So,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: growing up in a small town in Georgia, the word
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: divorce had so many implications. It was a sin, and
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna put a capital s sin. Divorce was not
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: only a personal failure, but a moral failure and a
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: failure on your family, one that had to be answered
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: in front of the church. Dixie Church, though in my experience,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: the members did not necessarily have to get permission from
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: the church, but oftentimes had to go after the fact
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: to face the deacons or leaders, typically men of the church,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: and if they are not satisfied with the answer, you
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: would be reprimended and oftentimes expelled from that church. So
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: your membership would be done, and I don't As a kid,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: when I heard membership your name was in the book,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: I thought it was a literal thing. I don't think
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: it is. I don't know, but that's how. That's how
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: I pictured this, because I will say when I was
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: quote unquote saved became a member, I didn't sign anything,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: so I don't know how that happened. I did say
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be a part of this church in
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: front of the members. I don't know.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I bet churches do that differently. I
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: feel like my church had like a book of memberships.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Yea, there may be one. I really don't know, but
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't And then they had to take letters,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: like if they wanted to go to a different church,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: they had to take their letter. And I was like,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: is that physical? Is that a physical thing? And I've
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: never personally seen it though, so I don't know it's
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: the whole thing, but yeah, the level of shame placed
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: on people getting divorced is overwhelming. The way they looked
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: down on divorce and even in pragice, the outside of
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: marriage and God forbid abortion was extreme. Having an affair
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: or even even abusing a spouse was less shameful, mostly
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: justifying it as a quote mistake. Even again, we talked
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: about it with people hiding sexual abuse within the church,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: hiding all of those things and being like they made
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: a mistake of rewording it. They send against their marriage
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: instead of being no, you raped somebody, that's that's bad.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: But I will say maybe murder would be considered on
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: that level, but only if that murder was not justified
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: for a holy reason, and sometimes even excusing husbands who
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: killed their wives. Recent articles written about the man who
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: killed his entire family had so many excerpts talking about
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: how godly he was and how attentive he was to
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: his church, his family, his mom and dad, siblings made
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: sure that his obituary and messages from acquaintances only acknowledged
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: how godly and christian like he was, even having the
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: audacity to say he loved his murdered family and fought
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: to keep them together, never admitting to his abusive and
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: overall deadly treatment of them. It was horrifying, and if
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: I remember correctly, his church supported that statement. Oh yeah, wow, yeah.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: And then you look at murders like the Atlantis spallshootings
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: and murders of so many quick people that have often
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: been praised by extremist conservatives and Christian nationalists. Again, we're
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: talking about recently, any of the Black Lives Matter protest
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: murders that have happened, whether it's I don't even want
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: to talk about him, Kyle was his face. I don't
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: want to acknowledge him, or people like that. The dude
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: in Texas who used his vehicle to hurt people, they've
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: been praising him instead of acknowledging, Hey, this is bad.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Why are you condoning this? Yeah, so it isn't shocking
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: that morality is judged harsher than actual murder and abuse.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: But that's a different episode. I was going to talk
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: about it in this episode, but I didn't have time.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: We don't have time for that, so that's gonna be
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: a whole different conversation. Yeah, And my parents have been
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: together for over fifty years now, and I've mentioned it
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: before that they were really happily married. I think they
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: really the harshest storms together. They've beat the odds and
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure they'll die together. And I don't mean
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: like they're they're gonna make a pact or anything like
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: if one goes, the other one is gonna follow soon after,
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: and that's like, that's the happiest thing I could think
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: for them, so they don't have to be without each other.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: But my siblings are a whole different story, and I'm
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: not gonna get too into their stuff, but I will
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: say each one went through their own messy divorce with
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: an unhealthy dose of guilt, but each would say they're
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: happier and don't regret their decisions. I think our church
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: was shocked and a lot of judgment was passed. It
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: was a rocky time for our family. The amount of
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: people who have known us all of our lives, have
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: seen us grow up in that church, who actually turn
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: their backs on our family was astounding. It was and
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I was young. I was I guess it was middle
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: school when things were happening, and to see that reaction
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: from somewhere that I thought I was loved was a
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: chocking moment, so much so that we didn't talk to
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: those people, and we still don't talk to those people
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: till this day. It's been more than a decade since
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: these incidents. More has probably longer. It's been a long
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: long time, probably twenty years for some of these things
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know, and it caused a huge divide in
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: our church community. They took size and made sure you
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: knew which side they were on. If they didn't take
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: a side, it was because they felt sorry for us,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: but didn't want to say it to our face, because
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: they didn't want the other people who were judging us
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: to feel like they were taking side. So it was really, really,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: really interesting. It was bitter, and it was gross, and
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: it was very unforgiving, and it didn't matter the reason.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: It didn't matter what the justification was. It was divorced
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: and that was bad. And my family wasn't the only
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: one that went through this. Any divorced individual felt that
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: really harsh thing of judgment that many of the elders
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: felt justified in passing and may even call them out
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: during sermons. Many of these people fled from the church,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: feeling unwelcomed in ex community and isolated themselves away from
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: any of the people of that church, literally hid away
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: from some of the members. But instead of being angry
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: at the people who felt that they had to the
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: authority to shame anyone and everyone, they just felt guilty
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: and felt like they deserved this and for so many
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: felt like this ruined their lives. I will my family
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: again are at the end of like understanding what they
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: had to do. They had to do and they can't
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: change people's minds. But so many others let this ruin
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: their lives. And I'm not exaggerating. They wouldn't even come
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: to the parking lot of the church because they felt
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: that ashamed, and if they did, they made sure to
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: stay in the car and have the windows rolled up
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: so no one would see them. And I know many
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: have felt a shame and judgment and it's old fashioned
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: those the times have changed, the traditions and moral judgments
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: still remain. Like I said, we don't talk to these people.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: So with that bitterness in mind, who I will say.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's a partial reason why I'm not married
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: and I don't care about men age because I've seen
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: what people do in this level of like I can
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: judge you if they go wrong. But right, so we're
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: going to talk about it, and we're going to talk
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: about it. Is I given all the personal accounts in
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: a more statistical way? First?
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, okay, So when it comes to divorce, the
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: statistics do you vary? Although most of us have heard
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: that almost fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. But
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: when it comes to what the numbers are really and
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: what are the numbers when it comes to gender and
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: to religion, specifically to Western Christianity, that's a bit harder
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: to pin down too.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Just recently, Forbes published an article titled Revealing Divorced Statistics
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, and we wanted to share some
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: of the findings that they reported. The half of the
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: marriages ending in divorce statistic actually only applies to first marriages,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: but for those who maybe in their second or third marriage,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: which is the highest divorce rate around to seventy three percent,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: they're more likely to get divorced. The average length of
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: a marriage before divorce is eight years.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: That's interesting.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: However, the divorce rates have gone down over the years,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: with the exception of a small spike during lockdown and
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: the initial pandemic, but so have the rates of marriage.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Right, But again, who is getting divorced? It looks like
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: people who have friends that are divorced are more likely
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: to get divorced. You're gonna get influenced. O't be streaming
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: whatever for me again, I just don't get married. The
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: remarrying thing is a factor. More boomers are getting divorced,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: with an increase of forty six percent divorce rate for
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: ages fifty five to sixty four, which I found interesting.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: But the average age of people getting divorced is forty
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: six for men and forty four for women. So I'm
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: not gonna prime again because I'm not married. I guess
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: people with high school education are less are more likely
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: to get divorced as well. So why are they getting divorced?
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: The number one reason is lack of commitment, followed by
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: infidelity and affairs, And again, the final straw is often
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: something specific like domestic violence, affairs, and substance abuse. But
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: the article also writes, quote interestingly, couples often disagree on
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: what the final straw was that led to the end
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: of their marriage. In fact, not a single couple reported
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: the same deciding issue as the ultimate reason for the
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: end of their marriage, which I think says a lot
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: to the communication part. Yes, I think it does as well.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: One other interesting statistic before we talk about the religious portion,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: women are far more likely to initiate the divorce. According
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: to that Forbes report, sixty nine percent of divorces are
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: initiated by women, and if you break it down specifically,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: the report stated that seven out of ten dissolutions are
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: initiated by women, and this is based on heterosexual relationships.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: But there's a lot of conversations recently on why women
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: are leaving. In a twenty twenty two BBC article titled
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: why women file for divorce more than men, they talk
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: about different factors as to why women are leaving and
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: here are some of the reasons. Being able to be independent.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Unlike the old traditional ways of men being breadwinners, women
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: are more educated and more successful in their careers and
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: have become more ambitious. As the article says, quote, women's
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: entry into the workforce enabled them to leave unhappy marriages
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: for the first time. They were no longer financially bound
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: to remain in abusive partnerships or relationships where their needs
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: were not being met, and women thus began to initiate
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: divorces at greater scale. And it goes on quote This
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: also helps explain why women with university level education are
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: so much more likely to end a marriage across cultures
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and geographies. Women who are economically able to take care
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: of themselves, which usually is tied to higher education levels
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: are more likely to initiate divorce than women who are
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: unable to economically sustain themselves and their children, as Heidi
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: car a psychologist and expert on domestic violence at the
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: US based Education Development Center right.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And on top of that, there are also emotional factors
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: between the social construction of women being more of the
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: emotional caregivers as well as being more socially constructed to
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: be emotionally intelligent. Women typically have higher expectations than what
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: is being met emotionally by the husbands, and again we
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: are talking heteronormative relationships and standards. Here's a long quote
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: from the BBC article. For many women, the expectations they
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: have when they intermarriage may fail to match up to reality.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Experts say they often have a higher expectation of how
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: a partner will meet their emotional needs than men, which
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: can lead to disappointment post wedding. Gliza fort Martinez, specialists
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: in conflict resolutions, says because men are usually socialized to
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: have lower emotional intelligence than women, this can lead to
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: female partners feeling unsupported and doing much of the emotional
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: labor in the relationship, which also means women are more Finally,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: attuned to problems in relationship red flags, and their tendency
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: to be the primary communicators and empathizers means that they
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: may also be the first to raise issues, perhaps ultimately
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: resulting in separation or divorce. Women also tend to gain
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: fewer emotional benefits from marriage, which could make single life
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: seem more appealing. While married men experience multiple perks, including
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: living longer and earning more money, women don't usually benefit
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: from their relationships in the same way. Instead, they bear
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: the brunch of household and child rearing labor, which can
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: leave working women quote overwhelmed in stress as fort Martinez.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: So in another article written specifically from a diverse law firm,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: the Women as Law Firm, they talk about the factor
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: of men not paying attention to their own mental health needs,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: which often leaves the wives taking on more emotional responsibility.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: So here's a quote from their article. By not taking
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: care of their own mental health or working on their
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: communication skills, women find themselves taking on more emotional responsibility. Occasionally,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: they end up being the only emotional support for the
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: entire family without the assistance of their partner. This emotional
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: burden takes its toll on women. They often feel alone
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: and as they have no support system within their marriage,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: the mental, physical, and emotional toll of that overburdening responsibility
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: is a major contributing factor when women are considering divorce.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Then there's also the social factor. One thing we've seen
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: in heterosexual relationships a lot is that men do not
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: have many close friends.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: We've talked about that before.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: It is more likely that women continue and maintain close friendships.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Another quote from that BBC article said women quote have
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: a better support system both to discuss any marital issues
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: as well as to ease the transition back into single life.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: It's also possible these friendships make divorce seem like a
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: more plausible option. Research suggests that if a close friend
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: gets divorced, people's own chances of divorcing rise by seventy
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: five percent.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: The influencing there.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: There you go, and one of the other reasons why
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: women may be initiating the Great divorce is just simply
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: for a resolution. The BBC article rights, filing for divorce
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: isn't the same as ending a marriage. While research shows
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: women in heterosexual marriages are more likely to initiate the breakup,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: there are also women who didn't choose in their relationship
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: but want our need to formalize the split. Nonetheless, quote,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: women tend to be more motivated than men to resolve
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: their marital status, says Katie Spooner, partner and head of
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: family law at Winkworth Sherwood, London. She says, based on
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: her client record, most men are happy to remain separated
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: unless there is a new relationship or particular imperative to
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: sort their finances.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: There is a reason where men may be one to
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: file for divorce instead of women, and that's because of illness.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: One of the first things that pop up when we
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: research divorce in marriages has been articles on men leaving
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: women due to illness. In fact, when I put in
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Google men divorce, it automatically auto filled with sick wives,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: which made me very angry. This is even being talked
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: about on TikTok. I've seen this often and it hurts me.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: It hurts my feelings. So what's happening? So in a
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: two thousand and nine Ruters article titled men more likely
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: than women to leave a partner with cancer, they write
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: women are six times more likely to end up separated
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: or divorced if they are diagnosed with cancer or multiple sclerosis,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: then if their male partners were facing the same illness,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: and this is according to a US study. The study
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: confirmed earlier research of a divorce or separation rate among
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: cancer patients of eleven point six percent, similar to the
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: general population, but found the rate jumped to twenty point
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: eight percent when the women was sick versus two point
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: nine percent when the man was ill.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: And apparently, fourteen years later, that hasn't changed. In another
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: article written for today dot Com, men are more likely
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: to lead their wives if sickness is involved. Here's the
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: quote from that article. They decided to do a study
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: after noticing divorce appeared to occur almost exclusively when the
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: wife is the disease afflicted partner. The phenomenon was called
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: partner abandonment and Patients with serious medical illness. The results
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: were based on five hundred and fifteen patients at three
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: medical centers who had a brain tumor, cancer or multiple
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: sclerosis and were married at the time of diagnosis. About
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: half were women. When the patients were followed for four
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: to five years to see if their marital status change,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: it turned out the woman was the affected spouse in
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: almost ninety percent of separations. With the female gender found
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: to be the strongest predicator of separation or divorce. And
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: in that article, the author of the study explains men
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: may be very well equipped to be primary providers, but
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: not so well equipped to be primary caregivers. Doctor Mark Chamberlaine,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: the study co author, told Today, I think men are
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: challenged in caring for someone who has disease and treatment
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: related symptoms, managing the stress, managing the logistics right.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: And there are many articles writing about the level of
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: unpreparedness of men becoming caretakers and taking on any type
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: of household responsibility. So here's a quote from a Guardian article. Tomer,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: a sociologist from the University of Alabama who studies how
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: gender affects couples when a partner gets sick, says, in
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: most couples, people understand they will need to support their
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: partner if they get sick. But she says men and
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: women interpret what caregiving looks like very differently. Men tend
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: to view the partner getting sick in almost a mechanical way.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: They see it as a problem to be solved. They
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: can separate out the obvious and immediate physical tasks that
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: result from the illness but other caregiving requirements are left unconsidered,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: such as emotional care or housework, which I feel like
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: that's physical but okay. This means that a lot of
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: the time women continue to do that work, and when
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: they don't, problems.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Can rise and they continue. Talking about a study completed
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: in Germany Quote twenty eighteen, Researchers in Germany used a
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: nationally representative sample to show that as long as they
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: are still able to, women continue to do an uneven
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: amount of the housework while they are sick. If that
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: was the dynamic in their relationship before they became unwell,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: particularly with more mild conditions, the expectation is that the
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: status quo will go on unless it gets so extreme
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: that the wife really can't do the work, says Tomer.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: The flip side of this is that relationships tend to
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: function well when the woman gets sick and requires intensive
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: care from her partner, but in cases where caregiving is
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: not necessitated, men tend to downplay a woman's symptoms and
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: classer is largely self sufficient, expecting her to ask for
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: help rather than proactively giving it. Communication fails even in sickness,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: but many of the reports are worse. They give examples
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: of women who are expected to continue with daily chores
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: even in pain or immediately after surgery, and if the
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: routines are disrupted for too long, the household falls apart,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: and this includes sexual activity. Women discussed how they would
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: take painkillers in order to not upset their spouses. When
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: it came to sexual expectations.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty explicit. I was like, wow, okay,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I hate all of this for you.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Of course, we've already talked about how sex and marriages
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: are expected and automated, but whatever. And on that note,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk a little bit about the statistics
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: when it comes to Christianity and divorce. So some of
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: the forces are saying Christians are getting to divorce more
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: than any other religion. Is that true? That's the question,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: and the answer is simple yes, But there are several
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: factors to that statistic. The broad term of Christianity can
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: be misleading. According to the Pew Research Center study, Evangelical
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Protestants had fourteen percent divorce rate, while historical Black Protestants
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: had a nineteen percent. Mainline Protestants a twelve percent divorce percentage,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: and they were among the highest of the divorce rates,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: which in that same study included the Hinduism, Buddhists, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: muslim and other religions. But when you put them all together,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: that's a big chunk of Protestants. Yeah.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: And another report showed that at least twenty five percent
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: of Christians have gone through divorce, and the numbers are
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: pretty studied today. Here's a quote from an older article
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: on divorce statistics between Christians and quote non believers. According
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: to the survey by the Barner Group, which is an
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: organization that focus on research on the intersection of faith
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: and culture, thirty percent of atheists and agnostics had been
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: married and subsequently divorced. But the Barner Group pointed out
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: that they have lower rates of marriage sixty five percent,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: and a higher likelihood of cohabitation. Barnara also stated in
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: a two thousand and four survey that one can understand
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: why atheists and agnostics might have a higher rate of divorce,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: since they are less likely to believe in concepts such
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: as sin, absolute moral truth, and judgment. Yet the survey
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: found that the percentage of atheists and agnostics who have
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: been married and divorce is thirty percent, still less than
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: the numbers for the born again population of thirty three percent.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: So why is this happening?
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have I have several reasons according to
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: conservative Christians. Now, everything we're saying is coming from Christian articles. Again,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: my algorithm is real messed up, real messed up. But
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I did find it interesting and I can't wait to
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: not be on this algorithm. Women are falling under the
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: trap of feminism. The idea of independence and being able
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: to leave without justification not cool. Also, a big common
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: factor in conservative Christian blogs is the refusal to acknowledge
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: gender as the binary aspect. So they really don't like
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: any of this conversation we're having today. When feminism confuses
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: the role of gender again, not us, not Anie, and
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: I are saying this. This is again from this article.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Then family and marriage roles fall apart. Here's advice from
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: an article from The Federalist, and I really hated that
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: I clicked on this quote. Successful relationships depend on men
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: being men and women being women. Every fiber of a
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: woman's being calls out for a man with whom she
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: can feel physically and emotionally safe, and money is part
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: of that equation. Yes, women now earn their own money
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: and that it is not going to change, But what
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: can change is our attitude and approach to love. What
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: men and women look for in a relationship and what
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: they need from each other within that relationship is not
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: the same. Being malleable with gender role is great, but
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: ignoring biology is not. After all these years, women still
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: want security and men still want to provide that security.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: The more of a relationship moves away from this reality,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: the more it will struggle. The more a relationship moves
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: toward it, the more successful it will be, which is
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: again ironic according to the statistics we just read.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Mm also hello from nineteen fifties, and yes, this article.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Is written in twenty two and in other articles giving
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: advice to men about how to restore their marriage or
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: keep their wives, they often tell men to be authoritative
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: but with submissive cards, which is not necessarily wrong.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Think of it as disciplining a child and trying not
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: to push the child away, but gently nudging them to
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: the answer you want them to give. Does it seem condescending?
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Here's a snippet from one article called an Epidemic of
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Christian Wives divorcing. Quote For the majority of these men,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: nothing seems to work. They try being loving and affectionate,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: just to be rejected. They try devotions and prayer together
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: and she has some excuse why she can't do it.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: They call her out on her sins and she gets
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: more and more angry and bitter. Some have tried it all,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: from being submissed themselves for a month to their wives
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: to prove it's not so hard, then to becoming a
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: man of the manosphere and taking leadership whether they have
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: a follower or not. Nothing they try seems to work,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: and often the wife will confess in her less angry moments,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I know I am the problem, but I don't know
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: how to stop it. One would think that just saying
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: that would be a big breakthrough, as the awareness that
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: I am the problem should in a healthy mind begin
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: to seek solutions to unhealthy behaviors, but in many cases,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the final results are Christian wives walking away from their
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: marriages and epidemic numbers because they are seeking relief from
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: the pain that they themselves are causing. And it's not
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: over yet. The block keeps going, saying perhaps the root
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: cause is a desire for control, as the feminist lies
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: are now planted firmly in most of the young Christian
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: wives hearts. No longer do they go into a marriage
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: with an attitude that believes love is sacrificial giving of
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: oneself to another, but rather love is now a two
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: way street that says, I cannot love you if I
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: do not feel I am getting from you what I
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: believe I need.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: I just.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: I want to take a minute out of this article.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: In that same article, they never talk about why the
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: women are leaving. They just say because they refuse to
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: work on the marriage. Right, So what I say is
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: generalized to specific cases. They don't even give examples of
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: why the women are unhappy. This blew my mind. I
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: was like, why, really, women want a two way street? Wait?
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: What that's a bad thing instead of sacrificing herself. But
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: you know whatever, whatnot? And by the way, the article
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: was a man who supposedly his wife gets the thumbs
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: up to this article saying yes, exactly exactly right, which
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: is what you're supposed to do with a wife, right.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, damn feminism, damn feminism. And yet, if you're
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: confused about the evils of feminism, here's a quote from
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: thegirldefined dot com. Which thing we talked about their site before.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: At its route, feminism is built upon a foundation completely
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: devoid of God. The feminist movement is woven with the
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: same sin Satan committed in the beginning, a rebellious heart
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: that pridefully says, I don't need you God, thanks, but
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: I'll do it things my way. I'm so good at acting.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: And they continue saying. The average American will agree that
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: most strongly stand for the following a woman's right to
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: abort murder her unborn baby, lesbianism, and the right for
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: women to marry women, complete liberation from sexual boundaries and morals,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: freedom from traditional gender roles in marriage, rejection of God
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: as the ultimate authority in life. You know, outside of
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: the wording and the fairmong greed, they're not completely wrong.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: I do feel like a woman should be able to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: wear marry a woman if they're in love. I do
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: feel like, you know, liberating from sexual boundaries of saying
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: that we have to be here for men's pleasure is
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: not a bad thing. And yeah, traditional gender roles suck
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: and that's why people are getting divorced. But okay, whatever whatever, Sure, sure,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: but I will say for that last bit, I know
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of Christian feminists who would disagree with this completely.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: But again, there is binary thinking when it comes to
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: this specific line of don't ever leave people divorces.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Right and according to another blog titled why feminism wants
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: to dismantle the family quote Like many isms before it, communism, religions, cults,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: feminism seeks to dismantle the traditional family unit for its
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: own gain. Why to the ism, old loyalties are like
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: bad habits, interfering with an individual's ability to pledge unwaiving allegiance.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Isms want control, but families tend to put family members
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: and their needs before the demands of the ism, reducing
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: the ISM's power and influence and therefore undermining its control.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Mm I love how they put religions in there.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I know, I don't like occultism. Does that work? I'm
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: a little too literal, I think. Okay, And if y'all
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: want to read this glorious article yourself, let us know.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: But the author of this blog cites several anti feminist
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: articles and books, including from the Flip Side of Feminism,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: where they use this quote from it quote. Feminists realize
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: all too well that they can never achieve a level
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: playing field in the marketplace as long as their male
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: competitors have the advantage of homemaker wives. Women on the
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: left know that in order to get ahead more easily,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: they must deprive men of their advantage in having stay
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: at home. Wise, the desire to eliminate the full time
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: homemaker has been a feminist's goal all along. The need
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: for a second income was never the goal, which I
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: find hilarious. They give a lot of credit to women
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: who just want to be able to sustain just in case.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Like at the at the beginning, it was more of like, oh,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be abused and treated as a
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: servant anymore to their under my marriage, and this is
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: the goal to the entire time, Like oh, okay, a
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: playbook here.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: The author from the same blog expands on this idea,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: saying quote, so feminism has made some progress over the
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: last several decades. If you look at the poorest and
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: least socially mobile areas in America, you will notice one
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: variable consistently lacking fathers, more specifically, mothers who are married
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: to the father of their children. Over the last few decades,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: the birth rate for unmarried women in the US has
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: risen steadily from eighteen percent in nineteen eighty to forty
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: one percent and twenty twelve. Alarmingly, the majority of moms
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: believe that absent or uninvolved dads can easily be replaced
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: themselves or another man, despite the evidence that stable marriages
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: lead to happy, healthy and motivated kids, which leads to
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: stronger communities, more opportunities, and greater equality.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I find it again quite funny that whole last line
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: is obviously an opinion.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, right, also very kind of funnily worded way,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: But yeah, sure, we've.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Definitely heard that argument before.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: The blog talks more about the perils of feminism in
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: regards to motherhood, politics, and marriage, but I think we
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: got we got that covered for now. An interesting theory
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: she brings, and so many other articles bring, is the
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: idea that things like divorce and child support are too
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: easy to access and that encourages more women to leave
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: their husbands right.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Recently, the topic of no fault divorce has been trending.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Right wing conservative Stephen Crowder has been lamenting, and I
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: mean just whining, his current marital status, which is now
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: no longer a thing. He told his audience about his
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: recent divorce, quote, No, this was not my choice. My
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: then wife decided that she didn't want to be married anymore,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: and in the state of Texas that is completely permitted.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: This was, by the way, an accusation, not just a statement.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Here's what a no fault divorce is. It allows a
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: couple to divorce without blame or fault. It is often
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: the simplest path and divorce available in a state, and
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: it exists in all fifty and DC according to legal
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: zoom dot com. And it explains further. No fault divorce
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: allows one spouse to file for divorce without blaming the
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: other or indicating that it was either spouse's fault. The
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: terminology differs with each state's no fault divorce laws, but
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: to obtain a no fault divorce, the spouse who files
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: simply needs to state that there has been irreconcilable differences
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: or incompatibility. And in some states, living apart for a
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: specific period of time can be the reason for a
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: no fault divorce. And I've heard that before just being
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: separated is enough. And conservatives are not a fan and
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: are wanting to end no fault divorce. And when we
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: say conservatives, I'm talking about political figureheads. In a recent
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Rolling Stone magazine article, They write, but Republicans across the
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: country are now reconsidering no fault divorce. There isn't a
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: huge mystery behind the campaign, like the crusades against abortion
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: and contraception. Making it more difficult to leave an unhappy
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: marriage is about control. Crowder's home state could be the
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: first to eliminate it if the Texas is his way.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Last year, the Republican Party of Texas added language to
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: its platform calling for an end to no fault divorce.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: In it, they said, we are the legislators to rescind
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: unilateral no fault divorce laws, to support covenant marriage, and
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: to pass legislation extending the period of time in which
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: a divorce may occur to six months after the date
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: of filing for divorce. And this is what we were
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: talking about, how to file for divorces because it does
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: a lot of stakes. Do have this type of stipulation. Yeah,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: but it's interest in the wording covenant marriage.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting, and of course other conservative states are
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: following suit. Here's another quote from that article. It's not
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: just Texas. A similar proposals presently being workshopped by the
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Republican Party of Louisiana. The Nebraska GOP has affirmed its
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: beliefs that no fault divorce should only be accessible to
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: couples without children. At the Republican National Convention in twenty sixteen,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: the last time the party platform was overhauled, delegates considered
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: adding language declaring quote children are made to be by
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: both natural parents united in marriage. Legal structures such as
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: no fault divorce, which divides families and in powers of state,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: should be replaced by a fault based divorced It's unclear
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: whether the party's twice divorced nominee for president, Wade in
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: on the debate at that time.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Right, I feel like this is going to hurt a
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: lot of politicians, and this is going to hurt a
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: lot of conservatives. Again, as we heard that the rates
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: of divorce and Christianity is higher, it makes you question.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: And also I feel like less people are gonna get
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: married and have children, which is the opposite of what
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Christian nationalists want. But you know, whatever, right, right, right, right,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: And yes, no surprise.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Just as they said in the article, this is a
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: large conversation on control and loss of autonomy. In an
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: older article about no fault divorce, They write that things
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: like no fault divorce is an attacked the sanctity of marriage,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: even more so than gay marriage, and is another strategy
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: by feminists. Ah here's a couple of quotes from this
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: two thousand and five article. The most forthright marriage advocates
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: recognize that, as Michael mccannis of Marriage Savers' Rights, divorce
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: is far more grievous blow to marriage than today's challenge
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: by gaze. Predictably, this fact has been seized upon by
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: advocates of same sex marriage. The weakening of marriage has
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: been heterosexuals doing, not gays, for it is their infidelity,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: divorce rates, and single parent families that have wrought social damage,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: opines the Economist. This distinction ignores the fact that the
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: two problems are closely connected. Gay marriage would probably not
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: be an issue in the first place if marriage had
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: not already been weakened by divorce. Interesting, and according to
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: the same article, divorce is a part of the feminist strategy.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: They write today feminist operatives employ similar strategies to encourage
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: divorce worldwide, often inserting it unnoticed and unopposed into programs
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: for human rights and unilateral Divorce is now one of
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: the first measures implemented by leftist governments.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: In two thousand and five, wasn't it Bush? Yeah? I
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: think yeah, anyway, yeah yeah, so again feminist operatives. Yeah,
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: that's usastly badass. I'm not gonna lie. And if feminism
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: is a strategic plant to destroy families, then obviously Christian
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: conservatives must combat the way they know how through fear
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: and jame. For example, what happens when a woman in
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: unhappy marriage is desperate for the next steps. Well, let's
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: look at some blogs and articles for advice. I'm gonna
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: read this. One blog offers fourteen characteristics of a godly
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: wife that will save your marriage. So we're going to
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: go down this list. Obviously, it's reading the Bible, being
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: persistent in prayer, giving godly wifely love, forgiving, being selfless,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: I think in a godly manner, use words of affirmation
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: and appreciation and admiration, being a leader, but with the husband,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: of course, being virtuous by understanding men. They actually say
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: virtuous by understanding men. And to elaborate on that, they say, quote,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: we knew as a godly wife, take the time to
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: learn how men understand things. You take a huge step
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: in saving your marriage. You're welcome, respect your husband, having
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: a biblical priorities, and being a virtuous woman in the community.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: And I don't think I've mentioned the whole Proverbs thirty
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: one woman, which is an old Testament. If you go,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: it used to be a thing where you would find
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: your birth date, go to that verse and that's supposed
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: to describe you. Oh it's terrifying, okay, anyway, but that's
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: a solution. Another offers a simple solution. This article titled
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: how to be Happy in an Unhappy Marriage suggests changing
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: your focus and expectations. And it's not completely wrong, as
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: the article says, marriage isn't a Hollywood or Harlequin romance
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: and it's something that is about compromise at work. But
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: it suggests, like the article above, that marriage is for
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: God and that's the focus. It doesn't really offer much
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: guidance outside of that. It literally had like two paragraphs
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: and yeah, again it's similar to what we just saw, aka, pray,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: read the Bible, follow the rules of the Bible, and
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: your marriage will be happy. And as a side note,
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: we also found an interesting conversation about parity culture once
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: again and the effects of marrying young for the sake
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: of sexual purity. Again, I have so many friends and
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: couples who fall under this line of thinking, we want
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: to have sex, but we want to save ourselves as
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: our marriage, So let's get married. Nineteen twenty twenty one.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: And here's a quote from the Cedarville interpreter. I believe
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Cedarville's a school quote. A practical issue with sexual abstinence
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: until marriage is that Christians are driven to marry young
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: in order to be able to have sex without any guilt.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Virginity is held as a pinnacle of purity and pride, which,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: if nothing else, raises its own unnecessary pedestal that all
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: too often borders on sexual idolatry. Getting married too young
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: for the wrong reasons, and having unreasonable expectations of how
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: amazing being married will be can be in a catalyst
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: for unhappy marriages and divorce. This rush to get married
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: also leaves fewer opportunities to find major red flags that
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: should suggest ending a relationship before marriage. Yeah, and again,
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: being a part of the Christian culture in college and
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: high school, it really hits the nail on the head.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I the literal reason they got married is we love
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: each other enough. We're about to send, So let's go
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: ahead and go and we'll grow old together and God
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: will handle everything else. And then they end up in
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: a horrible divorce.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I thought too.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so what happens when the force does happen
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: and what happens to women? Like I mentioned before, a
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: lot of people would flee from the judgment of old
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: fashioned ideas or what I would deemed as old fashioned.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: But sometimes people would come back with the hope that
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: enough time had passed for people to either forget or
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: at least not care as much. But for the most parts,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone ever really felt comfortable coming back
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: to the original churches or felt that they were still
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: a part of that community.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, and with all the turn to God articles urging
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: people to yes, just turn to God, pray and work
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: it out, there are those who decided to do what
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: was best for them. But something interesting we found is
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: that they all still felt that the church and church
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: leadership had a lot of say in that decision. In
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: one woman's words, as she had gone to the church
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: to help her volatile marriage, one key to why she
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: left was because her church leadership released her to legally separate.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Here's a quote from her blog. I went to church
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: leadership begging for help as my last resort. We were
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: referred to a new couple's counselor and a mentor couple.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: We walked this road with our elder and campus pastor.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: We were each given a lengthy list of things to
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: do to move towards reconciliation. My plea for a temporary
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: separation was backed up as they felt things were just
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: too volatile for us to remain under one roof while
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: trying to put things back together. But when assessed at
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: the end, But when assessed at the end of about
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: fifteen months, the unanimous decision was that I had done
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: all I had been asked to do and my husband
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: had not. They told me I was released from pursuing
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: a reconciliation and that the ball was one hundred percent
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: in my husband's court to save our marriage. They then
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: released me to legal separation, which I pursued. I must
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: say here that had my church leadership not released me
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: to legally separate, I have absolutely no idea where I
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: would be today. If I had to guess, though, I
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: believe I'd still be married and miserable and nowhere near
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: on the road to emotional health. I believe I would
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: not have wanted to go against the wishes and guidance
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: of my church leadership because of my high respect for
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: their wisdom and love for God. I am not staying
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: forever because they did release me, so I moved forward.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Of course we don't know the specifics of this marriage,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: but reading some of her experiences, I think it's safe
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: to say if something is too volatile, there's a level
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: of violence that's been present, and to me that's scary,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: especially with her acknowledgment that if the church had not
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: given her permission, she would have remained in that volatile relationship.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: So what does that teach us? And then, in my experience,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: separating would never be permitted with the old church that
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I was a part of, So that leaves the victim
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: continuing to be a victim. Yeah, and in my opinion,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: this article again was a plea for Christians to understand
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: her view and her desperation to leave her union, which
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: is really depressing. I hate that still a romantic notion
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: today because you know, marriage is completely different from what
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: it was a thousand years ago, one hundred years ago.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Apparently still different when it comes to k dramas and
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: its acquisitions can be weaponized. And that's what I feel
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: like this has become. These articles are talking about.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I actually, uh, this is like much less serious.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: But I want to come back and talk about that
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: because I may or may not have watched the Super
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Mario Brothers movie least wait.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Princess Peech.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, because he's like essentially trying to trap her
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: to marriage and it's so like sad.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Song.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but then he like threatens her friends. Anyway,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: I want to come back and talk about it. Yes,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: back to the more serious stuff.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: Though.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: In many of these articles, writers and authors played different
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: cases on why divorce is dangerous to the Christian community,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: but that ostracizing them is just as dangerous and decreasing
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: the numbers in the Christian community. However, studies show that
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: many of the divorce Christians are still active in their
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: faith even after going through such a distressing experience, though
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: that may change as more people are walking away from
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: their religious background. The research might shift. But with the
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Christian community, there is a battle between those who are
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: blaming leftists for the acceptance of divorce in their people
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: and those who are pleading for the church to handle
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: the issue of divorce with more grace and acceptance.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Right because we were coming down to how how do
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: the churches respond? I got more articles on again telling
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: women it's okay, this is how all went through it
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: than anything else, and then talking about how part of
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: the problem and part of the reason divorce is happening.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: And then they're not coming back to the church's because
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: of the way they keep pushing against people who are
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: getting divorced. So not a lot of resolution, not a
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: lot of solutions. It's quite fascinating. It's just more of
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: a debate about why it's happening and who to blame, right.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right again. So much we could talk about here,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: so much to come. Yes, yes, well listeners. If you
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: have any thoughts about this, please please let us know.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: You can write to us. You can email us at
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
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• 48:12
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• 48:15
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• 48:19
  Speaker 1: our super producer, Christina, our executive producer.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: Maya and our contributor Joey.
• 48:23
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