Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #515 Jason Flom with Allan Woodhouse and Brian Anderson

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#515 Jason Flom with Allan Woodhouse and Brian Anderson · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: On Tuesday, July seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, a local chef
0:06
Speaker 1: and father of two, Ting Fong Chan, walked home from
0:09
Speaker 1: his night shift in Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada at around six am.
0:14
Speaker 1: His body was found beaten and stabbed death near a
0:16
Speaker 1: construction site. An eyewitness saw the assailants through the darkness
0:20
Speaker 1: and described the group as four or five men with
0:23
Speaker 1: long hair. The police asked if the assailants may have
0:26
Speaker 1: been indigenous. The eyewitness couldn't say either way without a
0:29
Speaker 1: definitive answer, investigators began campassing the local indigenous population, and
0:33
Speaker 1: a man named Adam Woodhouse told them about a recent
0:36
Speaker 1: gathering at his home attended by Clarence and Russell Woodhouse
0:39
Speaker 1: as well as their cousin Brian Anderson. However, this gathering
0:43
Speaker 1: happened on Thursday night, not on Monday into Tuesday, the
0:47
Speaker 1: night of the crime. Despite the confusion over the date,
0:51
Speaker 1: as well as the uncertainty over the assailants ethnicity, Clarence
0:54
Speaker 1: and Russell Woodhouse, Brian Anderson, as well as their younger
0:57
Speaker 1: friend Allan Woodhouse underwent a series of coercive and in
1:01
Speaker 1: some cases, violent interrogations, resulting in four false confessions written
1:06
Speaker 1: in a language in which none of them were entirely fluent.
1:10
Speaker 1: The trial consisted of the presentation of these alleged confessions
1:14
Speaker 1: against four matching recantations, as well as alibi witnesses and
1:19
Speaker 1: accusations of police misconduct and brutality. Fifty years later, Brian
1:24
Speaker 1: Anderson and Alan Woodhouse share their harrowing story and the
1:28
Speaker 1: struggle to clear their names. This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome
1:46
Speaker 1: back to wrongful Conviction. This is an episode it's going
1:50
Speaker 1: to take everyone who listens on a journey, not just
1:53
Speaker 1: far away because this took place in the Great White North,
1:55
Speaker 1: but also to a place of disbelief for how the system,
2:00
Speaker 1: in this case, the system in Canada, can do what
2:04
Speaker 1: it does to innocent civilians. Let me introduce our guests
2:08
Speaker 1: and then we'll explain more about the case. With us,
2:11
Speaker 1: we have two wrongfully convicted men. First of all, Brian Anderson,
2:16
Speaker 1: Welcome to wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you're here under the services,
2:19
Speaker 1: but I'm happy you're here. Thank you and with us
2:22
Speaker 1: as well as Alan Woodhouse. So grateful for you being
2:25
Speaker 1: here as well.
2:26
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me here today.
2:29
Speaker 1: And joining us. Is an incredible woman named bob and Sody.
2:33
Speaker 1: Bobbin is the attorney of record for these men. She
2:37
Speaker 1: was the legal director at Innocence Canada at the time
2:41
Speaker 1: that she got involved with this case, and she's currently
2:43
Speaker 1: got one of the most amazing and interesting jobs, I
2:45
Speaker 1: think in the entire world of criminal justice. She is
2:48
Speaker 1: the intake director at the Innocence Project of New York.
2:52
Speaker 1: So Bobin, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
2:55
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having us, Jason.
2:57
Speaker 4: So.
3:00
Speaker 1: Bobn I almost feel like I want to let you
3:02
Speaker 1: set the stage here. I mean, this case is so nuts.
3:06
Speaker 1: It involves lies from people in positions of power, false confessions.
3:10
Speaker 1: At least one of the men didn't even speak the
3:12
Speaker 1: language of the confession that he was signing, that he
3:15
Speaker 1: didn't even know was a confession, Jason.
3:17
Speaker 3: For me, this was one of the first cases I
3:20
Speaker 3: worked on in my role as legal director at Innocence Canada,
3:23
Speaker 3: and it's one of those cases that right off the
3:26
Speaker 3: batch you know that something isn't right.
3:28
Speaker 1: You know.
3:28
Speaker 3: My co counsel, Jerome Kennedy has always put it best.
3:31
Speaker 3: We started off knowing that this was a nineteen seventy
3:35
Speaker 3: three case. It involved the Winnipeg Police service, four young
3:40
Speaker 3: Indigenous men and George Dangerfield. And as far as innocence
3:44
Speaker 3: Canada was concerned, that is a recipe for wrongful conviction.
3:48
Speaker 1: And George Dangerfield just what a name for a guy
3:51
Speaker 1: who has the dubious distinction of being the Crown prosecutor
3:55
Speaker 1: who is responsible for the most wrongful convictions in Canadian history.
3:59
Speaker 1: And he was unfortunately the top prosecutor in Manitoba, Canada
4:03
Speaker 1: for thirty years. And just to paint a picture of
4:06
Speaker 1: the guys who ended up getting caught in this nightmare,
4:10
Speaker 1: Brian Anderson, who's with us today at seventh grade education
4:14
Speaker 1: and no knowledge of the criminal legal system. He grew
4:16
Speaker 1: up on the Fairford Indian Reserve between Lake Manitoba and
4:19
Speaker 1: Lake Saint Mark, about two hundred and thirty kilometers or
4:22
Speaker 1: one hundred and forty three miles north of Winnipeg. The
4:24
Speaker 1: eldest had ten children. At eighteen, he moved to Winnipeg
4:27
Speaker 1: to work and live with his grandparents. And his first
4:29
Speaker 1: language was not English. He barely spoke English at all.
4:32
Speaker 1: His first language was Ojibwe Salto. And he had no
4:35
Speaker 1: criminal record whatsoever. This is important, that's important to know.
4:38
Speaker 1: But it turned out not to matter in this case.
4:41
Speaker 1: So Brian, tell me about your life growing up. Did
4:43
Speaker 1: you have a happy childhood? Yes?
4:45
Speaker 4: I did? I think I did.
4:49
Speaker 5: You don't know anything about life at that age.
4:52
Speaker 1: So right, you're a kid, I mean, let's face it.
4:55
Speaker 1: As a teenager you just said yeah, exactly, figuring it
4:58
Speaker 1: out just like anybody else. And Alan, what about for you?
5:02
Speaker 1: You lived on the Fairport Indian Reserve as well, with
5:05
Speaker 1: English as a second language. You had a ninth grade
5:07
Speaker 1: education there. You were seventeen years old, but also with
5:11
Speaker 1: no criminal record, and moved to Winnipeg two months before
5:14
Speaker 1: this awful crime happened. So Alan, what was your life
5:17
Speaker 1: like growing up in those times?
5:19
Speaker 2: From what you can remember, Well, my childhost is pretty rugged,
5:22
Speaker 2: so to speak, of eight brothers and two sisters, as
5:25
Speaker 2: I was a lot of people. Brian's younger brother I
5:27
Speaker 2: have and I used to be my handout buddy. We're
5:31
Speaker 2: up at the same age. Ban were a bit of wolder,
5:33
Speaker 2: so he hung out with you a wolder crowd. The
5:36
Speaker 2: only reason I was in Winnipeg is because to look
5:39
Speaker 2: for work. There's no work in a reserve, of course,
5:41
Speaker 2: because I was over sixteen, so I just moved to
5:44
Speaker 2: Winnipeg about a couple of months when I got arrested.
5:49
Speaker 1: Right and before you were arrested, the police picked up
5:51
Speaker 1: Clarence Woodhouse, followed by Russell Woodhouse, then you Alan Woodhouse,
5:55
Speaker 1: and lastly Brian Anderson. And the whole thing started with
5:58
Speaker 1: a statement from Woodhouse. First of all, that's a lot
6:01
Speaker 1: of woodhouses. So just to keep things straight for our audience.
6:05
Speaker 1: From what I gather, Woodhouse must be a common name, Brian,
6:09
Speaker 1: Are any of you guys related?
6:11
Speaker 5: Yes, I am. They are my cousins, which is the Woodhouses.
6:15
Speaker 5: Clarence and Russell, we had the same grandfather. We knew
6:18
Speaker 5: each other right from the little kids.
6:20
Speaker 2: I'm not related to idiotom actually not even Adam Mudos.
6:24
Speaker 1: So Clarence and Russell were related to you, Brian. But
6:27
Speaker 1: Adam and Allen aren't related to any of you guys, right, yes,
6:31
Speaker 1: so the crime itself. July seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, forty
6:35
Speaker 1: zho men in ting Pong Chan was beaten and stabbed
6:37
Speaker 1: to death near a downtown construction site in Manitoba, which
6:41
Speaker 1: is Winnipeg. Mister Chan was a father of two and
6:43
Speaker 1: a chef at a restaurant called The Beachcomber. He was
6:46
Speaker 1: walking home from the night shift and his body was
6:48
Speaker 1: found at six am on the seventeenth. So then comes
6:54
Speaker 1: this ridiculous quote unquote investigation.
6:57
Speaker 3: For the first couple of days after Chan's body was found,
7:02
Speaker 3: no investigation occurred. Essentially, they were doing a scan of
7:06
Speaker 3: the neighborhood and they came across a witness named Daisy
7:10
Speaker 3: Towel and Daisy, what's interesting about her is she didn't
7:14
Speaker 3: really see much at all. What she claims to have
7:17
Speaker 3: seen under the light of a lamppost in the middle
7:20
Speaker 3: of the night without her glasses, and she indicated that
7:23
Speaker 3: she had very poor vision was the outline of four
7:28
Speaker 3: or five individuals that had long hair, And when the
7:32
Speaker 3: officers put it to her whether she thought they were indigenous,
7:35
Speaker 3: she said, well, yes, they could be. And you know,
7:38
Speaker 3: the important point here is this was the seventies, and
7:40
Speaker 3: so I'm presuming a lot of people had long hair.
7:43
Speaker 1: I have fond memories of that era. I mean, long hair,
7:47
Speaker 1: great music, and this witness could have easily and vaguely
7:51
Speaker 1: stuck me into this group as well. I mean I
7:54
Speaker 1: fit that much at the description. That's the only description
7:57
Speaker 1: they had. So it's important to note that the police
7:59
Speaker 1: offered this blurry cited eyewitness the suggestion that the assailants
8:03
Speaker 1: were Indigenous, not the other way around. And Alan, I
8:06
Speaker 1: know you eventually became a jail house lawyer. Does it
8:09
Speaker 1: strike you as business as usual for the police in
8:12
Speaker 1: that era with in doubt, just take an indigenous guy, right,
8:16
Speaker 1: just start targeting Indigenous people.
8:18
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean I think goes wrong right away.
8:20
Speaker 2: It's Native people even in the reserve. You know, something
8:23
Speaker 2: happened outside the reserves. There's better community out there, right
8:27
Speaker 2: there's there's been Native people. There'd be police driving around
8:30
Speaker 2: looking for so and sorry though, that's the reality of it.
8:34
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, the police ended up canvassing the neighborhood on the
8:39
Speaker 3: lookout essentially for young Indigenous men. And that's how a
8:44
Speaker 3: few days later they came upon Adam Woodhouse's house and
8:48
Speaker 3: spoke to him. They also spoke to his common law
8:51
Speaker 3: partner and his common law partner's daughter. And what I
8:54
Speaker 3: will say is English wasn't even the first language of
8:57
Speaker 3: these witnesses. So Adam was also someone who was struggling
9:01
Speaker 3: to understand this context, wasn't provided an interpreter, and was
9:05
Speaker 3: participating and so when they spoke to Adam on July
9:08
Speaker 3: twenty second, he said, well, yes, on the night of
9:11
Speaker 3: the murderer, I had a group of young Indigenous men
9:15
Speaker 3: with me, including Brian Anderson, Clarence Woodhouse and Russell Woodhouse.
9:19
Speaker 3: And he distinctly didn't mention Alan. And what's interesting about
9:24
Speaker 3: the fact that he said that is almost immediately following
9:28
Speaker 3: his common law partner and his common law partner's daughter
9:31
Speaker 3: said yes, these young men were at our house, but
9:35
Speaker 3: that actually occurred Thursday and not on the night in question.
9:40
Speaker 3: And the reason that's interesting is a lot of the
9:43
Speaker 3: information that Adam was recalling from the evening actually related
9:47
Speaker 3: to things that happened on Thursday. So, for example, he
9:50
Speaker 3: referenced receiving his check he usually receives that on a
9:53
Speaker 3: Thursday night. He referenced using that check in order to
9:57
Speaker 3: buy beer again as a result of what happened on
10:00
Speaker 3: Thursday night. But essentially, the police, ignoring what you know
10:05
Speaker 3: his common law partner and her daughter said, decided to
10:09
Speaker 3: venture out. And this is when this web began to weave,
10:12
Speaker 3: and within twenty four hours they managed to get you
10:17
Speaker 3: alleged confessions from Clarence Woodhouse, Russell Woodhouse, Allan Woodhouse and
10:23
Speaker 3: Brian Anderson.
10:25
Speaker 1: Wow, so no, I mean they didn't even pretend to
10:29
Speaker 1: do a real investigation, just the assumption by the police
10:34
Speaker 1: that the assailants were indigenous. And Adam Woodhouse told them
10:37
Speaker 1: about gathering at his home with Clarence Russell and Brian,
10:40
Speaker 1: nothing about a murder or any conspiracy to commit murder
10:44
Speaker 1: or any criminal activity at all. And it even turned
10:46
Speaker 1: out to be the wrong night entirely. Monday into Tuesday
10:49
Speaker 1: was when it happened. This was Thursday, but that didn't matter.
10:53
Speaker 1: And now the interrogations and false confessions began in a
10:58
Speaker 1: language you guys didn't even.
10:59
Speaker 3: Under I think a really important part of this is
11:03
Speaker 3: understanding the sequence of the confessions, just to understand how
11:07
Speaker 3: they utilized classic red technique despite the fact that everything
11:11
Speaker 3: pointed against them. So yes, all four confessions, and this
11:15
Speaker 3: is important, all four of the confessions that these boys
11:19
Speaker 3: are alleged to have made start off with the exact
11:22
Speaker 3: same sentence. All four of them say, on Monday night,
11:26
Speaker 3: I was and when I read that, I knew that
11:30
Speaker 3: something was amiss. We have four men who are alleged
11:33
Speaker 3: to have written these confessions in separate rooms, separate circumstances,
11:38
Speaker 3: varying understanding of English, and yet all of their statements
11:42
Speaker 3: start the exact same way. And so that's when I
11:46
Speaker 3: delved into the actual sequence, like how did they obtain them?
11:50
Speaker 3: And what I saw was classic retechnique.
11:52
Speaker 1: You know.
11:53
Speaker 3: They started off with Clarence. They took him to the scene,
11:56
Speaker 3: brought him back to the station, They asked him to
11:59
Speaker 3: mark up the body and where it was that he
12:01
Speaker 3: had attacked, you know, ting fong Chen, immediately assuming that
12:05
Speaker 3: he was the person responsible. Ultimately, this allegedly led to
12:10
Speaker 3: his confession. And what's interesting about the confession is it's
12:14
Speaker 3: a partial confession and the only person that's mentioned in
12:17
Speaker 3: it is Russell. Then they go to Russell and they
12:20
Speaker 3: go look at this confession that Clarence gave you. And
12:23
Speaker 3: what's interesting about that is that Russell didn't even have
12:28
Speaker 3: enough of an understanding of the English language to be
12:31
Speaker 3: able to read the confession that Clarence apparently made. So
12:36
Speaker 3: they brought Clarence into the room with Russell to read
12:40
Speaker 3: to his brother this confession he's alleged to have made.
12:44
Speaker 3: And so Russell apparently makes the confession same thing on
12:48
Speaker 3: Monday night, I was, and so not only does he
12:51
Speaker 3: now mention Clarence himself, but he also references Alan, and
12:55
Speaker 3: so that is how Alan is brought into the story,
12:58
Speaker 3: and so then Alan is arrested. He is also shown
13:03
Speaker 3: the confession that now Clarence has made and subsequently Russell
13:07
Speaker 3: have made. And what's interesting about Alan is he was
13:11
Speaker 3: subjected to physical abuse because he refused to make this confession.
13:16
Speaker 2: That night, in that particular, when I got picked up,
13:18
Speaker 2: you know, there was a knock on the door, and
13:20
Speaker 2: there's two people standing there in suits. I guess you
13:22
Speaker 2: call them planes closed.
13:23
Speaker 4: Now.
13:24
Speaker 2: He asked me what my name was, So I told
13:26
Speaker 2: them who I was. So I said, sorry, grand them
13:28
Speaker 2: my wrist. You're the one we're looking for it. So
13:31
Speaker 2: I said, way wait, I said, what's going on? I
13:33
Speaker 2: want to talk to you. I went downstairs with and
13:36
Speaker 2: Mark carr on downstairs and they took me to the
13:38
Speaker 2: police station. We were the police. I asked him what
13:40
Speaker 2: its this about it? He said murder? I said murder.
13:43
Speaker 2: I said, maybe they had found a dead body and
13:45
Speaker 2: they wanted me to go and recognize some of the
13:48
Speaker 2: body or see what I mean. When we got to
13:50
Speaker 2: the police station and they said Okay, where were you
13:52
Speaker 2: on Tuesday night? So I tood, not hoom. Who else
13:55
Speaker 2: was there? There's nobody there. It's just me. My mother
13:58
Speaker 2: and I lived there, just had that little apartment, and
14:01
Speaker 2: my mother well she went out a lot, she drank
14:03
Speaker 2: a lot. But anyway, so I told him I was
14:06
Speaker 2: at home and they said, oh, there's nobody there, said,
14:09
Speaker 2: I know, you weren't there. You were at Adams Woodha Streets.
14:11
Speaker 2: I said, no, I wasn't there. I was there on Thursday. Yeah.
14:14
Speaker 2: They went back and forth for a while and they
14:16
Speaker 2: got angrier and angrier, and they started getting physical. I
14:21
Speaker 2: mean they were really rough. I mean they were they're
14:23
Speaker 2: hitting me. I mean, I was all bloody. So after
14:26
Speaker 2: four hours they rode up the statement, told me to
14:29
Speaker 2: sign it and then you can go, said, So I
14:32
Speaker 2: signed it, I said, After they signed, their hand covered
14:35
Speaker 2: me ultimately.
14:37
Speaker 3: Again. Interesting, his confession starts off with on Monday night
14:41
Speaker 3: I was and the variation there was. Now this confession
14:45
Speaker 3: includes Clarence, it includes Russell, it includes Alan, and there
14:50
Speaker 3: is the first reference to Brian Anderson. And so then
14:54
Speaker 3: they go to Brian and they speak to him, and
14:57
Speaker 3: they take Brian to the scene. They show him alleged
15:00
Speaker 3: weapons that were utilized, you know, and they show him
15:03
Speaker 3: the confessions of the other three points. Like on Monday night, I.
15:08
Speaker 5: Was on the twenty third, I got picked up for murder.
15:12
Speaker 5: Like I wasn't even a suspect. I was charged already.
15:16
Speaker 5: They got me to sign a piece of paper, which
15:19
Speaker 5: I did, and I didn't know that was the confession
15:22
Speaker 5: that supposedly I had made.
15:25
Speaker 1: The idea that you were signing a piece of paper
15:27
Speaker 1: in a language you didn't speak with nobody there to
15:29
Speaker 1: guide you or help you or advise you. I read
15:32
Speaker 1: somewhere that you had thought that it might have been
15:34
Speaker 1: just something related to your possessions that they were keeping
15:38
Speaker 1: on storage for you while they arrested you. Is that accurate.
15:42
Speaker 4: Yes.
15:42
Speaker 5: What they do is they make you empty your pockets
15:45
Speaker 5: and that they put stuff aside and you have to
15:48
Speaker 5: sign for them. And that's what I thought it was.
15:51
Speaker 5: That's how crooked they were, you know, they didn't care
15:54
Speaker 5: just because they had these witnesses they were calling them.
15:59
Speaker 5: That's where they based all this stuff from.
16:01
Speaker 3: And so at the end of the day, as a
16:04
Speaker 3: result of this sort of linear sequential experience, now all
16:08
Speaker 3: four boys are alleged to have participated. The statements that
16:13
Speaker 3: start very much the same build on each other. So
16:16
Speaker 3: first you have just Clarence, then you have Clarence and Russell,
16:20
Speaker 3: then you have Clarence Russell and Alan, and finally the
16:23
Speaker 3: final statement Clarence Russell, Alan and Brian have participated. And
16:29
Speaker 3: so essentially you have each of the young men pointing
16:31
Speaker 3: the finger at each other and weaving this web for the.
16:34
Speaker 1: Police actually feels a little bit like a Canadian version
16:43
Speaker 1: of New York City's own horror show known as The
16:47
Speaker 1: Central Park Five, currently known as Exonerated five because they
16:51
Speaker 1: use some of the same techniques differently, but you know,
16:55
Speaker 1: using everybody against each other and the physical abuse. And
16:59
Speaker 1: it's very important for our audience to know that in
17:01
Speaker 1: twenty nine percent of the DNA exonerations, the person who
17:04
Speaker 1: was proven with absolute certainty scientific certainty to be innocent
17:10
Speaker 1: confessed to the crime they didn't commit. Just like in
17:13
Speaker 1: this case, Bobin, what about physical or forensic evidence? Did
17:17
Speaker 1: they collect any, did they examine it? Was there any?
17:20
Speaker 1: Did they even make a show out of trying to
17:22
Speaker 1: solve this case?
17:23
Speaker 3: So that is where this case gets interesting, Jason. They
17:28
Speaker 3: actually did collect a lot of forensic evidence. The Winnipeg
17:31
Speaker 3: Police Service collected fiber analysis here microscopy, So there was
17:37
Speaker 3: three hairs that were grasped in Ting Fong Chan's hands.
17:41
Speaker 3: They had fingerprints, they collected clothing, they undertook presumptive blood tests,
17:46
Speaker 3: there was a series of knives that were collected, and
17:49
Speaker 3: essentially they used a number of different you know, and
17:53
Speaker 3: I used air quote sciences, sciences that have since been
17:57
Speaker 3: dubbed junk science to these things. But what's amazing about
18:02
Speaker 3: this case is Brian Anderson, Alan Woodhouse and the other
18:06
Speaker 3: two co accused were excluded from all of them. So
18:09
Speaker 3: they engaged in this efforts to try and get something
18:13
Speaker 3: beyond the confession undertaking these sciences, again air quotes, that
18:19
Speaker 3: have contributed to a number of wrongful convictions, but in
18:23
Speaker 3: this instance, remarkably, these four men were excluded.
18:27
Speaker 1: So even when they were using these super subjective, absolute
18:33
Speaker 1: junk sciences that are very useful for when you want
18:37
Speaker 1: to conjure up corroborating evidence for a false confession or
18:39
Speaker 1: a misidentification or a jail house snitch testimony, even when
18:43
Speaker 1: they tried to cheat, they failed, where so many other
18:47
Speaker 1: unscrupulous prosecutors and law enforcement officials have succeeded time and
18:50
Speaker 1: time again. So I mean, I'm sure that there are
18:54
Speaker 1: a number of people in the audience scratching their heads
18:57
Speaker 1: as I'm doing right now and saying, wait, I thought
19:00
Speaker 1: she said they were excluded.
19:03
Speaker 3: That's the weirdest thing about this case. So in every
19:07
Speaker 3: other case I've ever worked on, there's something more. You know,
19:11
Speaker 3: there might be harmark cross that was performed, there may
19:14
Speaker 3: be fiber analysis that matches. There might be you know,
19:17
Speaker 3: a smudge, fingerprint, or some kind of presumpted blood. But this,
19:23
Speaker 3: this is that case that the only thing that ties
19:27
Speaker 3: these individuals to the case are these confessions they're alleged
19:31
Speaker 3: to have made. All of the air quotes. Science that
19:35
Speaker 3: they tried to utilize excluded them, but.
19:38
Speaker 1: They marched right ahead as if it included them, right exactly.
19:44
Speaker 1: It just keeps piling up, right, So we have the
19:46
Speaker 1: blind witness, right, we have the false confessions that might
19:50
Speaker 1: as well have been written in Chinese or Greek Portuguese
19:54
Speaker 1: because you didn't know what the hell you were signing,
19:56
Speaker 1: And the physical and forensic evidence collected does match. So
20:01
Speaker 1: it's already the pile of sculpatory evidence and factors is
20:05
Speaker 1: growing and growing. But also you had an alibi. It
20:08
Speaker 1: wasn't like you were by yourself that night, right.
20:11
Speaker 5: That's right now, staying at my grandfather at the time,
20:14
Speaker 5: that's where I was. And Clarence and Russell that was
20:18
Speaker 5: their residence too.
20:19
Speaker 2: Yes, I was at home and my mother can confirm
20:22
Speaker 2: that the aster where I was on the guy got killed.
20:27
Speaker 2: She said I was at home when she got home,
20:30
Speaker 2: but then she said she was drunk. There's the bars
20:32
Speaker 2: closed about twelve o'clock. Then she walked from the main
20:36
Speaker 2: street to Isabel Street. The that's about fifteen minute to
20:39
Speaker 2: twenty minute walk, so that would be about two o'clock
20:41
Speaker 2: when I was at home, because she said I was
20:44
Speaker 2: complaining to her about her becoming home late, because you know,
20:47
Speaker 2: I had to get up in the morning. Were there,
20:49
Speaker 2: So I don't I be walking at two o'clock in
20:51
Speaker 2: the morning and waking me up, And that's how she remembered.
20:55
Speaker 1: So you guys both underwent preliminary hearings. Alan you were
20:59
Speaker 1: discharged November nineteen seventy three after the preliminary hearing based
21:02
Speaker 1: on the finding that the statement to police was involuntary
21:06
Speaker 1: and thereby inadmissible and you were discharged, but you were
21:11
Speaker 1: mentioned in the other statements, and then they were still
21:14
Speaker 1: able to put you on trial and they had you
21:17
Speaker 1: bumped up from juvenile court into adult court. It just
21:20
Speaker 1: keeps getting worse to stand trial along with Brian and
21:23
Speaker 1: your other two co defendants.
21:24
Speaker 2: Right, that's right.
21:26
Speaker 1: So now we get to the trial, and you got
21:29
Speaker 1: George Dangerfield. We talked about the notorious prosecutor. This trial
21:33
Speaker 1: took place February eighteenth through March fifth. Now, obviously you've
21:37
Speaker 1: studied it in detail, Bob, and tell us about this trial.
21:41
Speaker 3: The only thing here is the confessions the trial. Jidge
21:44
Speaker 3: actually says that, and I'm going to read you a
21:46
Speaker 3: quote from his instructions to the jury. The whole case
21:50
Speaker 3: basically against these accused, each of them, rests on his
21:54
Speaker 3: own statement, and that sort of summarizes the trial. The
21:58
Speaker 3: entire length of the trial focused on these statements, and
22:02
Speaker 3: it was essentially a competition on who was telling the truth.
22:07
Speaker 3: You know, you had these supposedly upstanding officers that were
22:11
Speaker 3: presenting this case vouching for the fact that these individuals
22:15
Speaker 3: had confessed to them. And on the opposite side, you
22:18
Speaker 3: had four young indigenous men who were sort of villipied.
22:22
Speaker 3: They didn't speak English, they weren't provided with interpreters, and
22:26
Speaker 3: essentially it was their word against the police.
22:29
Speaker 1: The word of the same police officers who had beaten Allen,
22:33
Speaker 1: who was a child. They literally beat him to extract
22:36
Speaker 1: the statement that was then, of course, later presented against
22:40
Speaker 1: him at trial.
22:41
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well that's the only thing. That's the only
22:43
Speaker 2: thing they had. I said, Oh yeah, you came out
22:46
Speaker 2: and you confessed it, of question, that's what the police said.
22:50
Speaker 2: They didn't stand time with the beating, they unied it.
22:53
Speaker 2: Of course, even the statement wasn't true. For instance, the
22:57
Speaker 2: statement said that I had started this person in the
22:59
Speaker 2: stomach a couple of times, but there was no stab
23:01
Speaker 2: wounds in the stomach at all.
23:03
Speaker 1: It's a classic hallmark of a false confession when the
23:07
Speaker 1: details of the statement don't match the physical evidence. And
23:11
Speaker 1: there were also the alibi witnesses. But in reading about
23:14
Speaker 1: the trial, it really made me sort of throw want
23:17
Speaker 1: to throw up in my mouth to read that Brian's
23:19
Speaker 1: grandfather was never even called to testify to his alibi.
23:24
Speaker 1: It's insane. But then this part I don't know struck
23:27
Speaker 1: me in a different sort of sickening type of way,
23:29
Speaker 1: which is that Alan, your mother was called the trial,
23:32
Speaker 1: which was appropriate, but from what I understand, the jury
23:37
Speaker 1: didn't hear her full explanation because the judge freaking interrupted
23:42
Speaker 1: her during a pivotal moment of questioning and then sent
23:45
Speaker 1: her home without allowing her to answer the question like
23:48
Speaker 1: what planet are we on? This is madness?
23:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, well today, I don't know why the judge was
23:55
Speaker 2: sort of hostile toward her. Yeah, because you don't understand
23:59
Speaker 2: what's going on here? Go sit down, Yeah, let's say
24:03
Speaker 2: and sat down. It seems to me he just didn't
24:06
Speaker 2: want to hear her say anything. I don't know why.
24:11
Speaker 2: Maybe he didn't want to hear the truth. He didn't
24:13
Speaker 2: want to hear any evidence contrary to what they believed.
24:17
Speaker 1: I mean, as a parent, I think anyone who's listening,
24:19
Speaker 1: who is a parent, father, mother, whatever, would feel a
24:24
Speaker 1: sense of outrage that this is the mother with her
24:28
Speaker 1: son's life at stake, and the judge is basically treating
24:32
Speaker 1: her as if her life her son's life.
24:35
Speaker 3: No, none of it matters, honestly, Jason, it was the
24:39
Speaker 3: moment that our read the sentencing decision. I want to
24:42
Speaker 3: read this passage to you. So these are the comments
24:45
Speaker 3: of the trial judge. She says, this is not a
24:48
Speaker 3: jungle where we live. It is not a wild's land.
24:51
Speaker 3: We are not subduing this land from anybody. We are
24:55
Speaker 3: not still taking it from wild people in this community.
24:59
Speaker 3: We want to be able to come and go freely,
25:02
Speaker 3: whether the lights are on in the streets or whether
25:05
Speaker 3: they are out, whether the police are patrolling the roads
25:08
Speaker 3: or whether they aren't. And you know, Jason, extemporaneous comments
25:13
Speaker 3: about jungles and wildness not only add nothing useful to
25:17
Speaker 3: the trial process, but they conjure up stereotypes that can
25:20
Speaker 3: only do unfair damage to indigenous person Standing trial.
25:24
Speaker 1: March fifth, nineteen seventy four, Brian Allen and Clarence were
25:28
Speaker 1: found guilty of murder and sentence to life in prison,
25:32
Speaker 1: and Russell was found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to
25:35
Speaker 1: ten years. So, Brian and Alan, what was that like
25:41
Speaker 1: when that fury came in and sends you to prison
25:43
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life.
25:45
Speaker 2: Oh, I was shock coming. I was just spitless. It's
25:48
Speaker 2: sort of I don't I don't get it. I never
25:51
Speaker 2: thought of killing anyone in my life ever.
25:54
Speaker 5: I have to just take what was coming to me
25:56
Speaker 5: because like a I guess you like a sheep and
25:59
Speaker 5: a slaughter house or whatever, like you know this, do
26:02
Speaker 5: whatever they want you have.
26:04
Speaker 4: You have nothing.
26:20
Speaker 5: Once the door loss behind you, you're in that little
26:24
Speaker 5: cell by yourself, and then that's all you do, you think.
26:30
Speaker 5: I didn't know how to take it to begin with
26:32
Speaker 5: a thing, and I thought, wows just do away with myself,
26:36
Speaker 5: kill myself.
26:38
Speaker 1: And then.
26:40
Speaker 5: After thinking about that, I thought, hey, I can't be
26:44
Speaker 5: doing this. I'll be helping those buckers. That's what they're
26:47
Speaker 5: trying to do to me, you try to kill me.
26:51
Speaker 5: Then I promised myself that I would keep going and
26:57
Speaker 5: I'm still here.
26:59
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it helped me a lot of owned
27:01
Speaker 2: out totally alone because there was Brian, There's Clarence and Russell,
27:05
Speaker 2: So yeah, I had some some kind of support.
27:09
Speaker 4: Yeah.
27:10
Speaker 2: When I got to personally, I never realized how many
27:12
Speaker 2: Native people they were there. There's just full of Native
27:15
Speaker 2: people there was. There was hardly any white people there
27:18
Speaker 2: at all. It seems I seemed like a big giant reserve.
27:21
Speaker 2: When I joined the organization. Now in the Native Brotherhood,
27:24
Speaker 2: I was quite active in prison politics. I was present
27:28
Speaker 2: for the Brotherhood a few times. And not only that,
27:31
Speaker 2: I became a Jellhouse lawyers of all things. Yes, so
27:35
Speaker 2: that kept me occupied. I got pretty good in learn
27:39
Speaker 2: learning the system. There was a time there I thought, well, now,
27:42
Speaker 2: I don't know where this idea came from. I thought,
27:44
Speaker 2: you can serve your time where you can let the
27:47
Speaker 2: Times review. I think, yeah, I started adopted our philosophy.
27:52
Speaker 5: Pick up books or what I would try and distract
27:54
Speaker 5: your mind. That kind of kept me sane, Like you know,
27:59
Speaker 5: I didn't. I didn't go insane at all. I went
28:02
Speaker 5: to school as well, trying to learn something, like you know,
28:05
Speaker 5: try and educate myself, to try and learn English. At
28:08
Speaker 5: least I could try and speak for myself because my
28:10
Speaker 5: lawyer wouldn't speak for me.
28:12
Speaker 2: I finished my high school in prison. I took some
28:16
Speaker 2: courses here, like auto mechanics took I took electrician and
28:20
Speaker 2: I work as electrician every time I'm out. I thought
28:24
Speaker 2: schooling would be the best way to get out as
28:28
Speaker 2: soon as possible as Enforstnately, they didn't turn it that away,
28:32
Speaker 2: because I spent seventeen years in prison before I got
28:36
Speaker 2: a full parole.
28:38
Speaker 1: That's right, Alan, Despite both of you spending your time
28:41
Speaker 1: so well behind the walls. As you both just described,
28:45
Speaker 1: you were not granted parole until nineteen ninety, while Brian
28:50
Speaker 1: was initially denied parl nineteen eighty because the par Wark
28:52
Speaker 1: concluded that Brian had a quote unquote obsession to prove
28:56
Speaker 1: his innocence. I mean, of course, but they said that
29:01
Speaker 1: that could potentially result in his violating release conditions. Like what, okay,
29:08
Speaker 1: what are we through the looking glass here? I mean,
29:10
Speaker 1: you can't win in that situation. An innocent man not
29:12
Speaker 1: deserving a parole. It's just totally asked backwards. But there
29:17
Speaker 1: was a man that I read about who was a
29:19
Speaker 1: fierce advocate for you, Brian. And that guy's name was
29:22
Speaker 1: Dick Skelding.
29:23
Speaker 5: He was a school teacher. And then I asked him
29:26
Speaker 5: to help me write a letter to my lawyer. He
29:29
Speaker 5: helped me out and then he says, oh, I'll send
29:33
Speaker 5: him a letter to He said, after that the lawyer,
29:37
Speaker 5: I had tried to get him fired because he's trying
29:39
Speaker 5: to help me. And then he was pissed off at that.
29:42
Speaker 5: He said there's something going on here. He said, something wrong.
29:46
Speaker 5: You're like a lawyer like that, he's supposed to be
29:49
Speaker 5: helping and he's against you. And then he says, would
29:54
Speaker 5: you take a light detector? He said, so, I said okay,
29:58
Speaker 5: and then I passed it, of course, and then after
30:01
Speaker 5: that he contacted the CTV News and then they came
30:04
Speaker 5: in interviewed me over there.
30:06
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, he died in nineteen eighty two, but you carried on,
30:10
Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, the CTV did its story on
30:13
Speaker 1: your case, Brian called the Anderson Confession. And you know,
30:16
Speaker 1: sometimes pressure breaks pipes. So you were ultimately released on
30:21
Speaker 1: full parole in nineteen eighty three, ten years after your arrest.
30:24
Speaker 1: But then Alan, you spent seventeen years in prison before
30:28
Speaker 1: being granted parole on May twenty third, nineteen ninety.
30:31
Speaker 2: Well, they wanted me to admit that kill somebody, and
30:34
Speaker 2: I just couldn't bring miss out to tell you I
30:36
Speaker 2: got I didn't kill anybody. Finally, I think this sort
30:40
Speaker 2: of said they weren't going to get me to say
30:44
Speaker 2: that killed somebody. I think one of the members said,
30:47
Speaker 2: you know, he said, we can't base our decisi't based
30:51
Speaker 2: on what you say. We have to base just isn't
30:54
Speaker 2: based on the fact that you were convicted. Even if
30:57
Speaker 2: you were in and they granted me a parole I
30:59
Speaker 2: think in March, and then I said, okay, you can
31:02
Speaker 2: get on me twenty three, nineteen ninety. So I went
31:06
Speaker 2: to the halfway house, you know, which is just another prison.
31:08
Speaker 2: So I stayed there another six months. So sir, it's
31:11
Speaker 2: a gradual release. You know, you don't just walk over there. Yeah.
31:14
Speaker 2: There some parole officers ra attitude. You're trying to find
31:17
Speaker 2: excuses to send you back to prison. The current one
31:20
Speaker 2: is actually pretty good right now. So it's actually very
31:23
Speaker 2: good completely the elevance. Oh, I've had really bad parole officers.
31:27
Speaker 2: I've been suspended a few times. I hardly got out
31:31
Speaker 2: on habeas corpus. Three times my parole officers revoked my parole.
31:35
Speaker 2: I had to take him to court to reinstace my parole.
31:38
Speaker 2: Take me three times, and they finally I told him
31:42
Speaker 2: that the next time I caught him on hebis corpus,
31:46
Speaker 2: I will be filing civil suit. So far there left
31:50
Speaker 2: me alone. But like today, I could be suspended right now.
31:54
Speaker 2: You know, I can't be in chill tomorrow. That's just
31:57
Speaker 2: the way it.
31:57
Speaker 1: Is, Brian. For you for was revolt to suspend it
32:00
Speaker 1: and regranted numerous time. We've talked about this before, you
32:03
Speaker 1: and I about sort of the prison outside of the prison, right.
32:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
32:07
Speaker 5: Well, I had such a racist parole officer because of him,
32:12
Speaker 5: I went back and forth. He told me he was
32:14
Speaker 5: an ex cop. He was really after me like any
32:18
Speaker 5: little thing. Even when he used to come visit me.
32:21
Speaker 5: He put his phone or whatever tape recorder aside. He said, well,
32:25
Speaker 5: I'm going to turn this off first so it don't
32:27
Speaker 5: get interrupted, and he's recording me all this time. You know,
32:31
Speaker 5: I could see that. And then he had said, well,
32:35
Speaker 5: like you know, what we say and what the courts
32:39
Speaker 5: say are two different things. Don't bet on it. He
32:42
Speaker 5: told me, like, you know, like you're going to go back,
32:47
Speaker 5: like he made a decision already. I was going to
32:49
Speaker 5: get revoked, revoked my parole. I was glad to get
32:53
Speaker 5: rid of him. Finally they gave me another one, which
32:56
Speaker 5: is a woman after that, and then she was nice
32:58
Speaker 5: to me, and I never then it went back after that.
33:02
Speaker 5: I'm still with it today. Like you know, I have
33:06
Speaker 5: I have like a chain, like a lease. I can
33:08
Speaker 5: only go so far, like as a radius. I can't
33:11
Speaker 5: go past eighty kilometers from where I'm at I can
33:15
Speaker 5: get thrown back in jail for that, for being out
33:17
Speaker 5: of the boundary.
33:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all these years later. It's so crazy that
33:21
Speaker 1: in Canada they do it much the same way we
33:24
Speaker 1: do here, which is try to make their lives as
33:26
Speaker 1: difficult as possible after their feed whether they're innocent or guilty.
33:29
Speaker 1: Of course, if you're declared actually innocent, then they don't
33:32
Speaker 1: put you on parole here. But I always say we
33:33
Speaker 1: should build ramps for people coming out of prison so
33:36
Speaker 1: they can get back on their feet, join their community,
33:39
Speaker 1: get back with their family, go to school, become contributing
33:43
Speaker 1: members of society. Instead, we put up roadblocks every place
33:47
Speaker 1: we can and put ice in the road and nail
33:51
Speaker 1: so you get tripped up and you go right back
33:52
Speaker 1: to prison. There's forty four hundred different restrictions in America
33:56
Speaker 1: on parole and probation, over forty four hundred, some of
33:59
Speaker 1: them make it virtually impossible for somebody to remain free.
34:02
Speaker 1: And sad to hear that it's the same way in Canada.
34:05
Speaker 5: Exactly, Like you know, like what I didn't like about
34:08
Speaker 5: this too, is that like somebody come from another part
34:13
Speaker 5: of the world like you, on the other side of
34:15
Speaker 5: the world, for example, and come and tell me how
34:18
Speaker 5: to live my life in my own country. You know
34:21
Speaker 5: that pisces me off try to control my life, still
34:25
Speaker 5: do I don't like that?
34:28
Speaker 4: I should be free?
34:46
Speaker 1: So they have yet to declare you both actually listen,
34:50
Speaker 1: all these decades later, while they continue to keep their
34:53
Speaker 1: hooks into you, and as time has passed, the fight
34:56
Speaker 1: to clear your names has remained constant, but the process
35:00
Speaker 1: is maddeningly slow. In fact, the presence of Bob and
35:04
Speaker 1: with us today starts a while back with a legend
35:07
Speaker 1: in the innocence community who has since then passed.
35:11
Speaker 5: Hurricane Carter's name came up. I was told to contact
35:15
Speaker 5: Hurricane Carter. They were called Aidwick. Now they're called Innocence Canada.
35:19
Speaker 5: I didn't know anything about Innocence Canada. There was the
35:22
Speaker 5: four cases that came up, people that were convicted from
35:26
Speaker 5: George Landerfield. Their cases were looked after. They've been dealt
35:31
Speaker 5: with already, and I believe my case was ahead of them,
35:37
Speaker 5: but I haven't been looked at it all.
35:40
Speaker 1: So, Bobin, when did you and Jerome Kennedy get involved
35:43
Speaker 1: and take us right up to the present to where
35:45
Speaker 1: the case is at right now?
35:47
Speaker 3: Jerome and I became involved in twenty seventeen, and that
35:52
Speaker 3: was when Innocence Canada was going under a bit of
35:55
Speaker 3: a shift. So what Jerome Kennedy did was review every
35:59
Speaker 3: single file that was on our roster and evaluate it.
36:04
Speaker 3: I think it was days into me starting my role
36:06
Speaker 3: as legal director, we started working on this case and
36:09
Speaker 3: so almost instantly, over the course of the next maybe
36:14
Speaker 3: year year and a half, we were pouring over every document,
36:19
Speaker 3: calling every institution, trying to put together this file and
36:24
Speaker 3: figure out a way in because I think the struggle
36:26
Speaker 3: in this case was they were so obviously innocent. The
36:31
Speaker 3: only thing here was the confession, and we just couldn't
36:37
Speaker 3: figure out why it was they were convicted. And so
36:40
Speaker 3: we submitted Brian's case at the beginning of twenty nineteen
36:44
Speaker 3: to an organization known as the CCRG, So that's the
36:48
Speaker 3: Criminal Convictions Review Group and essentially that is the sub
36:51
Speaker 3: department of our Ministry of Justice. And in Canada, what
36:55
Speaker 3: this process involves is us filing what is known as
36:59
Speaker 3: a Section ninety six point one application, and the Ministry
37:04
Speaker 3: on their website provides you about three pages in order
37:07
Speaker 3: to be able to make a person's claim of innocence.
37:10
Speaker 3: But ultimately Brian and Allen's combined applications ended up being
37:15
Speaker 3: three hundred pages of us noting everything we had found,
37:19
Speaker 3: and was accompanied by I think almost five or six
37:23
Speaker 3: banker's boxes of evidence we had collected over the years
37:27
Speaker 3: what had initially only started off with the four confessions.
37:31
Speaker 3: So presently Brian's was filed in twenty nineteen. The CCRG
37:35
Speaker 3: actually approached us and asked us to file Allen's in
37:38
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, and so we filed his application in February,
37:43
Speaker 3: sort of as a supplement to the two. And now
37:46
Speaker 3: it's still before the CCRG being considered and it's a
37:50
Speaker 3: long process. We've been waiting for a while and we're
37:53
Speaker 3: really hoping that the Minister makes a decision soon.
37:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. It really just pisses me off how easy it
38:01
Speaker 1: is to throw a few good men's lives away, but
38:05
Speaker 1: then to of course to undo that dirty work, is it?
38:11
Speaker 1: You know, Well, now we know it's a fifty year
38:14
Speaker 1: uphill struggle with Baker's boxes of material that takes years
38:18
Speaker 1: to a mass and of course many more years to
38:21
Speaker 1: get in front of anybody who's in a position to
38:23
Speaker 1: do anything about it.
38:25
Speaker 3: That's the thing about wrongful convictions. It is so easy
38:30
Speaker 3: to convict someone and here we are fifty years later,
38:35
Speaker 3: still trying to undo it. You know, I started on
38:38
Speaker 3: it twenty seventeen. It is now twenty twenty two, just
38:41
Speaker 3: to get an idea of how long this process takes.
38:44
Speaker 3: And I am just on the tail end of Alan
38:47
Speaker 3: and Brian's efforts to sort of undo what happened to them.
38:52
Speaker 1: And if any of our listeners want to support your efforts,
38:54
Speaker 1: is there a website that can go to.
38:56
Speaker 3: So the ask for us is supporting organizations like an
39:00
Speaker 3: Since Canada, we have so little resources, and to Brian's point,
39:05
Speaker 3: it takes us years to even get to the point
39:08
Speaker 3: that we have enough resources to be able to review
39:11
Speaker 3: and evaluate a case. And in the absence of us
39:14
Speaker 3: doing so, there is no one else. There is no
39:17
Speaker 3: one else that is doing this work. And so people
39:20
Speaker 3: like Brian are forced to wait in the queue until
39:23
Speaker 3: we have enough resources ability to reach that file. And
39:27
Speaker 3: this is a human being that is waiting for us,
39:30
Speaker 3: that is waiting for us to review their case. And
39:32
Speaker 3: so all I'd ask, you know, the pitch to the
39:34
Speaker 3: audience would be to support your local wrongful conviction organization.
39:39
Speaker 3: Make sure that you're able to contribute to them in
39:42
Speaker 3: that way. And when there are policy matters that are
39:44
Speaker 3: coming up or opportunities to support, please do, please.
39:49
Speaker 1: Do, amen, So keep your ear to the ground. People
39:53
Speaker 1: support your local innocence organizations as well as larger ones
39:56
Speaker 1: like Innocence Canada. I mean the money go a long
40:00
Speaker 1: way with Innocence Canada, believe me, and we'll have their
40:04
Speaker 1: site linked in the bio. So now we come, of course,
40:07
Speaker 1: to my favorite part of the show. Closing Arguments is
40:10
Speaker 1: the section of the show where first of all, I
40:12
Speaker 1: thank you all of you for being here and sharing
40:15
Speaker 1: this unreal story. I'm gonna turn my microphone off, kick
40:19
Speaker 1: back in my chair with my headphones on, if I
40:21
Speaker 1: close my eyes and just zone in on whatever else
40:25
Speaker 1: you want to share. Bobin, please start us off, and
40:28
Speaker 1: then I'll leave it up to you to hand the
40:30
Speaker 1: mic off to whoever you want to have go next,
40:33
Speaker 1: and then the other guy will take us off into
40:36
Speaker 1: the sunset.
40:37
Speaker 3: The only thing I will say is, for almost fifty years,
40:41
Speaker 3: Brian and Alan have maintained their innocence. They have spent
40:44
Speaker 3: the majority of their life marked as murderers, and yet
40:49
Speaker 3: every day, both of them wake up, continue to fight
40:52
Speaker 3: to clear their name. And you know, as Jason mentioned
40:56
Speaker 3: in one of the parole reports that I read, they
40:58
Speaker 3: talk about Brian's session with his innocence, and in both
41:02
Speaker 3: Brian and Allen's case, their obsession with proving their innocence
41:06
Speaker 3: has never wavered. Their story is one of enduring strength, determination,
41:12
Speaker 3: and perseverance.
41:14
Speaker 5: Yes, well, I got to keep crying. I can't give up.
41:17
Speaker 5: I need but I need help. I there's nothing I can.
41:21
Speaker 4: Do by myself.
41:24
Speaker 5: Whoever's out there we can help, will even better.
41:28
Speaker 4: That's what I need.
41:30
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you very much for having me here. There
41:33
Speaker 2: was a great privilege to be here. I would like
41:35
Speaker 2: the audience and all that. You know, we always think
41:39
Speaker 2: about justice, but justice has to come soon. I can't
41:46
Speaker 2: just steal happen and then nothing, nothing happens. So we
41:50
Speaker 2: have to make a decision. This review has to come
41:53
Speaker 2: to an end at some point. I just wish they'd
41:56
Speaker 2: make a decision quickly because just think also are stressful,
41:59
Speaker 2: the fact that this is hanging over you. Well, when
42:02
Speaker 2: am I getting out? You know why? Am I getting out?
42:05
Speaker 2: Day in and day out? You know it? Just where's
42:07
Speaker 2: the oat? Psychologically dreaming. Please be aware of that there's
42:13
Speaker 2: a lot of injustice in this world, and it's people,
42:17
Speaker 2: and we always think it'll never happen to me, but
42:19
Speaker 2: it does happen. I certainly never told you what happened
42:23
Speaker 2: to me.
42:30
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
42:33
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis,
42:37
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production
42:41
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
42:44
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
42:48
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at
42:52
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
42:55
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both
42:58
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flahm. Ravel Conviction is
43:02
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with
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Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one