Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Women in Leadership: You Made It to the Top. So Why Are You Miserable? | Success | E567

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Women in Leadership: You Made It to the Top. So Why Are You Miserable? | Success | E567 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

0:02
Speaker 1: My close friends already know this. Now you will too,
0:04
Speaker 1: that before I was a psychologist, I was actually into
0:08
Speaker 1: fashion design and to this day have an intense relationship
0:11
Speaker 1: with my clothes. What we wear is a reflection of
0:14
Speaker 1: how we feel. And as we evolve over time, we
0:18
Speaker 1: need to shed the old things. What do we do
0:21
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0:24
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0:27
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0:32
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0:36
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0:38
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0:43
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0:46
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1:00
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Speaker 1: slash LHS. On with the show. My friends, we can
2:00
Speaker 1: spend so much of our lives shopping. Climbing the ladder, right?
2:05
Speaker 1: Like attempting to attain higher and higher levels of success,
2:09
Speaker 1: believing that. Finally arriving in this leadership position.
2:16
Speaker 2: Maybe it's your own business.
2:18
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a director level position. You'll finally have the
2:21
Speaker 1: career experience that you have been.
2:23
Speaker 2: Dreaming of and trying to make happen for a long time.
2:27
Speaker 1: Then once we start living it, reality creeps in.
2:31
Speaker 3: You know, if you don't have that person or even
2:34
Speaker 3: just one person to be able to say, hey, this
2:37
Speaker 3: meeting was really hard.
2:38
Speaker 2: This is what was going through my head. Does any
2:40
Speaker 2: of this make sense? All that stuff. It's just it's
2:44
Speaker 2: a lot to carry on your own.
2:45
Speaker 1: What is often surprising is how difficult and even painful
2:52
Speaker 1: it can be, especially for women to be in leadership roles.
3:01
Speaker 3: You know, you want to run it by somebody for
3:03
Speaker 3: whom you don't have to explain all of the layers
3:06
Speaker 3: of being a woman and being a woman of color.
3:08
Speaker 3: And maybe you're also a first generation, you know, person
3:12
Speaker 3: in your field and your family. And it just starts
3:15
Speaker 3: to pile up and it can be really, really isolating
3:18
Speaker 3: and stressful.
3:19
Speaker 1: And so if you are feeling this way, A, nothing
3:23
Speaker 1: is necessarily wrong. This might be the experience, but also
3:27
Speaker 1: on today's podcast, I have a very special treat for you.
3:30
Speaker 1: We're going to spend time with my dear friend and colleague, Dr.
3:34
Speaker 1: Natasha Tapar Olmos. She is a psychologist with a strong
3:38
Speaker 1: clinical background and also does a lot of work in
3:41
Speaker 1: organizational psychology. Who's here today to share not just her perspective,
3:46
Speaker 1: but also her recommendations on how to thrive as a
3:51
Speaker 1: woman who is also a leader. So, Dr. Natasha, we
4:05
Speaker 1: have a lot to unpack.
4:07
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm so happy to be here. Yeah.
4:10
Speaker 1: Oh, well, it's always a delight just to visit with you.
4:12
Speaker 3: Well, I guess I'll start with a little bit about
4:15
Speaker 3: my own personal and professional journey, since it really informs
4:20
Speaker 3: the work that I do with clients and really has
4:23
Speaker 3: helped me define the clients that I am also best
4:27
Speaker 3: suited to work with. I've been in formal leadership roles,
4:31
Speaker 3: I mean, since college, right? So various student organizations and
4:36
Speaker 3: then in graduate school. And then once I got licensed
4:40
Speaker 3: as a psychologist and really began my career post-grad school,
4:44
Speaker 3: I've held a number of leadership positions, some with pretty
4:48
Speaker 3: high visibility, where I was managing a team of staff
4:52
Speaker 3: members and faculty, and then others where I you know, again,
4:58
Speaker 3: like I had, I was aware that I had influence,
5:01
Speaker 3: but not necessarily a title. And so I think the
5:04
Speaker 3: experience can be kind of exhilarating in the sense of
5:08
Speaker 3: if we think of leadership as influence, you know, for
5:11
Speaker 3: those of us who are really driven by values and
5:14
Speaker 3: want to make a material impact, there's so much that
5:17
Speaker 3: you can do. I think what surprised me perhaps the
5:21
Speaker 3: most was how lonely it can be and how lonely
5:25
Speaker 3: it has been for me in certain roles. I think
5:27
Speaker 3: there's a layer for women of color that makes that
5:31
Speaker 3: loneliness even more intense.
5:34
Speaker 1: Who do you talk to about some of this stuff?
5:36
Speaker 1: Who can relate and that it's very important to develop
5:40
Speaker 1: that community? But a lot of the day-to-day is you're
5:45
Speaker 1: on your own to figure it out. Take me to
5:48
Speaker 1: your experience and then how is that maybe amplified for
5:52
Speaker 1: women of color?
5:53
Speaker 3: Even if you look at the proportion of women workers
5:56
Speaker 3: at entry-level positions.
5:57
Speaker 2: So I think to the.
5:59
Speaker 3: Extent that a woman's experience is impacted by what she's
6:05
Speaker 3: seeing around the table in the conference room or in
6:08
Speaker 3: the boardroom, who and what, I think that that can
6:11
Speaker 3: contribute to that feeling of loneliness. When you are in
6:15
Speaker 3: a role where you are managing a team or responsible
6:19
Speaker 3: for mentoring others, and you also report to somebody who's
6:24
Speaker 3: structurally in the organization above you, you know, if you
6:27
Speaker 3: look around at your level there, like you, like you
6:30
Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, there might not be that many people, women
6:33
Speaker 3: to confide in and to sort of be able to say,
6:36
Speaker 3: you know, like, Hey, can we chat real quick? Cause
6:40
Speaker 3: this thing happened. And like, I don't know if it's
6:42
Speaker 3: just me or if I'm misinterpreted like those, like those
6:45
Speaker 3: gut check type things, like, who are you going to
6:48
Speaker 3: do that with? You know, the pool becomes smaller and smaller.
6:52
Speaker 3: And I think what happens for women, and this is
6:55
Speaker 3: where for women of color, there's an additional layer, because
6:58
Speaker 3: there's even that many fewer women around the table, maybe
7:02
Speaker 3: many women of color, the higher they go become.
7:05
Speaker 2: The only right, the only in the room.
7:08
Speaker 3: And so no one really can understand that experience. And
7:13
Speaker 3: so it's hard to find that kind of support. And
7:16
Speaker 3: And have those informal like gut checks or, you know,
7:20
Speaker 3: you have an intuition, but, you know, you want to
7:22
Speaker 3: run it by somebody who for.
7:25
Speaker 2: Whom you don't have to explain all of the layers.
7:27
Speaker 3: Of being a woman and being a woman of color.
7:29
Speaker 3: And maybe you're also a first generation, you know, person
7:33
Speaker 3: in your field and your family.
7:35
Speaker 2: And it just starts to pile up and it can
7:38
Speaker 2: be really, really isolating and stressful.
7:40
Speaker 1: As a woman who in a lot of situations is
7:44
Speaker 1: a minority in a larger organizational environment, that you may
7:50
Speaker 1: have different ways of thinking about things, different perceptions, different
7:55
Speaker 1: ways of solving problems, different ways of relating to people
7:59
Speaker 1: that are not what other people are doing, like kind
8:02
Speaker 1: of the dominant culture that can maybe lead to second
8:06
Speaker 1: guessing yourself, feeling alone. Is this the right way? And
8:10
Speaker 1: then though, who do you go to to work through
8:14
Speaker 1: some of that? And that's kind of the seed of
8:17
Speaker 1: the loneliness. But it's also amplified when perhaps some cultural
8:21
Speaker 1: differences or perspectives are then layered on top of that
8:23
Speaker 1: so that it feels like harder to connect with people
8:26
Speaker 1: who really, truly understand your perspective without having to go
8:32
Speaker 1: through a lot of educating them. Yeah. Yeah.
8:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I have a concrete example comes to mind.
8:38
Speaker 3: Similarly, within the broader group, women of color, there's such
8:41
Speaker 3: a diversity of experience and identity. But, you know, just
8:45
Speaker 3: to share an example, being the only, let's say, you know,
8:48
Speaker 3: you're the only woman in a boardroom, right? And you're
8:50
Speaker 3: looking around, there's like a culture that's been established and
8:53
Speaker 3: you're sort of standing out as a woman, you know,
8:57
Speaker 3: being aware of that contributes to how you're feeling, whether,
9:00
Speaker 3: you know, that might be stressful, that might be empowering.
9:03
Speaker 2: It could be a range of things.
9:05
Speaker 3: But usually oftentimes women talk about, you know, feeling like
9:08
Speaker 3: and there's been so many great books written on this
9:11
Speaker 3: topic in terms of women are, you know, penalized when
9:14
Speaker 3: they're when they're too direct.
9:16
Speaker 2: I'll speak for myself, you know, in my my upbringing.
9:19
Speaker 3: As a South Asian person, the respect for elders was
9:22
Speaker 3: something that was very significant. And it looked like a
9:26
Speaker 3: very specific behavior, which was you don't interrupt elders, you
9:30
Speaker 3: don't talk back to elders.
9:31
Speaker 2: And you don't.
9:33
Speaker 3: There's a lot of rules around that. And all cultures
9:36
Speaker 3: have their own values around respect for elders. But how
9:41
Speaker 3: I noticed this coming up was I would be in
9:43
Speaker 3: rooms with older men. When I was recently, several years ago,
9:48
Speaker 3: in a leadership position, I was in a meeting room
9:51
Speaker 3: with mostly older white men. And my sort of conditioning,
9:56
Speaker 3: cultural conditioning of.
9:57
Speaker 2: Like, oh, you don't challenge elders. elders, right?
10:01
Speaker 3: Like you don't speak, you know, you, you do that
10:03
Speaker 3: in a gentle way. You, you make it softer or
10:06
Speaker 3: maybe you don't say anything at all in the meeting
10:08
Speaker 3: in front of other people.
10:09
Speaker 2: Maybe you bring that up in another way.
10:11
Speaker 3: Like I, you know, the internal like battle between like,
10:15
Speaker 3: wait a second, my like, you you know, heard what
10:20
Speaker 3: I just said, you know, I would be, it would
10:22
Speaker 3: be so disrespectful. But then also like, but hold on,
10:25
Speaker 3: this is not, I'm not in a room with my grandfather.
10:27
Speaker 1: That is not my grandfather.
10:28
Speaker 2: That is not my grandfather.
10:30
Speaker 3: But like, right. So like then, so all your conditioning,
10:34
Speaker 3: but then also like what's your objective and what's the
10:37
Speaker 3: context and like orienting to that. And then on top
10:40
Speaker 3: of that, you're also managing your, As a woman, maybe
10:43
Speaker 3: you've received explicit or implicit messages about what people expect
10:47
Speaker 3: from you or what they don't expect from you. I mean,
10:49
Speaker 3: it's just like so much. I mean, it's kind of
10:52
Speaker 3: crazy making. And I think for a lot of women,
10:54
Speaker 3: there's so much stress that comes from that, that if
10:58
Speaker 3: you don't have that person or even just one person
11:01
Speaker 3: to be able to say, hey, this meeting was really hard.
11:04
Speaker 2: This is what was going through my head. Does any
11:06
Speaker 2: of this make sense? All that stuff. It's just it's
11:10
Speaker 2: a lot to carry on your own.
11:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. And even these moments that may
11:16
Speaker 1: be to others in the room might be another day
11:19
Speaker 1: at the office can start to feel emotionally fraught in
11:23
Speaker 1: this way that over time has this energetic toll that
11:28
Speaker 1: it takes, especially when it happens over and over again.
11:31
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:32
Speaker 1: So interesting. And, you know, I think that it should
11:35
Speaker 1: be said, too, that probably the type of environment that
11:39
Speaker 1: you're leading in has a big impact. And so there
11:43
Speaker 1: are certainly like what you're describing might be more of
11:45
Speaker 1: a stereotypical corporate type environment, right? With a multi-layered organizational
11:50
Speaker 1: leadership hierarchy. I could also represent the experience of female
11:54
Speaker 1: leaders in entrepreneurial roles where, you know, maybe there isn't
11:58
Speaker 1: a huge team of people around you, or maybe, maybe
12:00
Speaker 1: a lot of them are also women, but that there's
12:04
Speaker 1: still this way of being, this instinctive way of being
12:08
Speaker 1: that might not always be the right thing to do
12:10
Speaker 1: in a business application and having to be responsible for
12:14
Speaker 1: so many people. But especially in many entrepreneurial roles, coming
12:19
Speaker 1: into that without competencies in leadership, in management, you know,
12:25
Speaker 1: so many small business owners get there. I mean, myself included,
12:29
Speaker 1: and you, like with your therapy practice, a coaching practice
12:32
Speaker 1: as a service provider who now wants to have a
12:35
Speaker 1: business that goes and does that without understanding what that
12:39
Speaker 1: even means or how to do it and having to
12:41
Speaker 1: figure things out in real time and make mistakes. and
12:46
Speaker 1: fail and have people be disappointed in you and mad
12:49
Speaker 1: at you. And for a very relational person, it's like, yeah.
12:53
Speaker 1: And sometimes I feel like if I care more about
12:56
Speaker 1: those things, you know, my own leadership development have had
12:59
Speaker 1: the great privilege of working with a number of business
13:01
Speaker 1: coaches over the years, but I've really enjoyed working with
13:04
Speaker 1: some of my male coaches because they're such this different perspective.
13:08
Speaker 1: And I'm always struck by how different the mindset can be,
13:12
Speaker 1: particularly this like tough minded approach where I'm like, wow,
13:16
Speaker 1: that kind of shines a light on a relational way
13:19
Speaker 1: of being that maybe isn't always the best way to
13:21
Speaker 1: handle things in a business environment. Right. Right.
13:23
Speaker 3: But, but like important to access though, right? Because so
13:27
Speaker 3: actually one of the things that I, I was in
13:29
Speaker 3: a very visible leadership role at my academic job several
13:33
Speaker 3: years ago, and it was a great, an amazing growth opportunity,
13:37
Speaker 3: but also my goodness, like just from a leadership standpoint. So,
13:41
Speaker 3: you know, challenging. And I would find myself in meetings
13:45
Speaker 3: a lot. And I would have like I was always
13:48
Speaker 3: the student who like, you know, had had the thought
13:51
Speaker 3: that I wanted to share, but I wouldn't put my
13:53
Speaker 3: hand up. And then someone else would put their hand
13:55
Speaker 3: up and say exactly the same thing that I was
13:57
Speaker 3: going to say. Right. And, you know, it was and
14:00
Speaker 3: I've so I've sort of having a parallel process. And
14:04
Speaker 3: I found myself asking internally, what would a white guy
14:08
Speaker 3: do right now? And it was this way that I.
14:12
Speaker 1: Little rubber bracelet. What would a white man do right now? Yeah,
14:15
Speaker 1: I need that. Yeah.
14:17
Speaker 3: And it was a way for me to access this
14:21
Speaker 3: way of thinking or being that was not my default,
14:25
Speaker 3: but that I recognized could have potential value if I
14:29
Speaker 3: could just imagine what would a white guy do. And
14:32
Speaker 3: that helps me calibrate.
14:33
Speaker 2: And I'd be like, well, maybe.
14:35
Speaker 3: And, you know, it may sound like stereotyping and I
14:38
Speaker 3: guess at some level it is, but it wasn't something I,
14:40
Speaker 3: you know, always, it wasn't something I was saying out loud.
14:43
Speaker 2: I just sort of needed to expand my range of options.
14:46
Speaker 2: And that was a way for me to do that.
14:49
Speaker 3: And, you know, just helped me real like sort of, again, like, okay,
14:54
Speaker 3: there's a spectrum. I find myself here on the spectrum
14:57
Speaker 3: of how to say this one thing or how to
14:59
Speaker 3: deliver this piece of feedback to a team member. and
15:02
Speaker 3: I'm feeling kind of locked in, what are my other options? And,
15:05
Speaker 3: you know, and also to your point, you know, some of,
15:08
Speaker 3: some of the mentors who I have just, I value so.
15:12
Speaker 2: Deeply are men and, you know, yeah.
15:16
Speaker 3: And so it's, it's, it's not about, yeah, it's not
15:19
Speaker 3: like an adversarial thing. It's more, just what are my choices?
15:24
Speaker 3: What are the range of choices and options that I have?
15:27
Speaker 3: And how can I access the ones that maybe I
15:30
Speaker 3: didn't have access to?
15:32
Speaker 2: Or just my mind just doesn't go there, you know?
15:35
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. I think that's it. And for the record,
15:38
Speaker 1: so Dr. Natasha and I are united. We think men
15:41
Speaker 1: are great and have, so nothing here is male bashing,
15:45
Speaker 1: but I think it can be a different experience. Although
15:49
Speaker 1: there are so many relational things creative men who have
15:54
Speaker 1: web thinkers. I mean, not all men are the same
15:57
Speaker 1: either and have a lot of empathy and emotional, all
16:00
Speaker 1: the things. But I will tell you that in my
16:02
Speaker 1: own leadership roles, I think that my, again, instinctive way
16:06
Speaker 1: of being is seeking to understand and kind of creating
16:09
Speaker 1: space for people to do their own thing.
16:11
Speaker 3: I don't really.
16:13
Speaker 1: want or need to manage other people. I don't really
16:17
Speaker 1: like telling people what to do, which is really in
16:19
Speaker 1: many ways a deficit for a leader. And it has
16:22
Speaker 1: created problems for me, but then to have a male
16:25
Speaker 1: perspective who is more stereotypical and I'm, you know, perseverating
16:28
Speaker 1: on like, but you know, it's, it's going to devastate
16:31
Speaker 1: her if I have to let her go. And he's like,
16:33
Speaker 1: this shouldn't.
16:34
Speaker 2: Be that hard.
16:35
Speaker 1: Right. And like, look at the needs of the business.
16:37
Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, Yeah.
16:39
Speaker 1: Like those kinds of things I think are illuminating.
16:42
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
16:43
Speaker 1: I do.
16:44
Speaker 3: And I, and you know, I don't know if, if
16:46
Speaker 3: when men and women, there's the phenotypic differences are just
16:49
Speaker 3: so powerful that we will always think in that kind
16:53
Speaker 3: of dichotomous way. I mean, I think when you really
16:55
Speaker 3: drill down underneath it, I think we're talking about values.
16:59
Speaker 3: I think we're talking about temperament. I think we're talking
17:02
Speaker 3: about like relational style and those things are, are gender less, right?
17:06
Speaker 2: Those aren't really.
17:08
Speaker 3: And so I actually think that, you know, like that
17:11
Speaker 3: is the, that's what we're really talking about. But at
17:14
Speaker 3: the same time, you know, who you are and how
17:18
Speaker 3: you present in the world and how other people see you,
17:21
Speaker 3: like that's also real, right? And so it's kind of
17:24
Speaker 3: like we're sort of trying to straddle those two levels
17:26
Speaker 3: of experience.
17:28
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. So true. And to your point, I mean,
17:31
Speaker 1: I know so many like fierce, tough-minded women who are
17:37
Speaker 1: operating in that way. And again, very gentle, relational men.
17:42
Speaker 1: And it really is those individual changes. But to your point,
17:46
Speaker 1: I think, and you said this at an earlier place
17:48
Speaker 1: in our conversation, there are some socially constructed expectations of women.
17:54
Speaker 1: I think that there can be consequences for women showing
17:57
Speaker 1: up in certain ways. I You know, Dr. Natasha, we
18:01
Speaker 1: did take a super quick break, but let's dive into
18:04
Speaker 1: that part on the other side and start giving women
18:09
Speaker 1: who are tuning into this and leadership positions being like, yes,
18:12
Speaker 1: but how do I make this feel easier?
18:14
Speaker 2: How do I.
18:14
Speaker 1: Start enjoying this experience more? My friends trust us. We will,
18:19
Speaker 1: we'll get there. Dr. Natasha has a lot to share
18:21
Speaker 1: on that topic as well. So we'll be right back.
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20:38
Speaker 1: today to hear your first cha-ching. So friends, we are
20:44
Speaker 1: back with my very special guest, Dr. Natasha Tapar-Almos. She
20:48
Speaker 1: is a consulting psychologist who works organizationally as well as
20:53
Speaker 1: clinically and has so much insight into the experience of
20:57
Speaker 1: women in leadership, the hidden obstacles, but also the strategies
21:01
Speaker 1: that make it feel easier and more congruent. So Dr. Natasha,
21:06
Speaker 1: just before the break, you promised to shine some light into, honestly,
21:12
Speaker 1: I don't know how else to say it. I'm not
21:15
Speaker 1: mad at it.
21:15
Speaker 2: It just is what it is.
21:16
Speaker 1: But like these double standards, right, for women in powerful
21:24
Speaker 1: leadership roles, where in some ways, we need to operate
21:30
Speaker 1: from a very tough-minded way of being.
21:33
Speaker 2: We need to be direct.
21:34
Speaker 1: We need to set a vision. We need to manage people,
21:36
Speaker 1: kind of need to be in charge, but cannot be
21:39
Speaker 1: perceived as being the B word, right? Also have so
21:43
Speaker 1: many natural strengths we might be bringing into this relational, intuitive, creative, right?
21:50
Speaker 1: Being able to see novel solutions, different ways of doing
21:53
Speaker 1: things that may or may not be respected in our
21:57
Speaker 1: work environments, even though they can bring an enormous amount
22:00
Speaker 1: of value. And so for a lot of women, and
22:03
Speaker 1: I've had this for my own experience, it can sort
22:05
Speaker 1: of feel like this, no matter what you're doing, it's
22:08
Speaker 1: probably wrong. Yeah. It's a short way of saying it.
22:12
Speaker 1: And somebody is going to be mad at you anyway.
22:14
Speaker 2: So like, yeah. So, so like, what do we do?
22:20
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you make of that? Or do
22:24
Speaker 1: you see that differently? I mean, do you have examples
22:26
Speaker 1: of times that that isn't true or examples of women
22:29
Speaker 1: who've managed that differently so that they are making space
22:33
Speaker 1: for themselves to show up in a bunch of different
22:37
Speaker 1: ways as needed without the feather ruffling that.
22:41
Speaker 2: Can go wrong with it?
22:43
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
22:44
Speaker 3: Yeah.
22:45
Speaker 2: I mean, gosh, such a good question.
22:47
Speaker 3: And like my mind goes straight to first acknowledging that
22:51
Speaker 3: the context in which we operate has such a, the environment, right?
22:56
Speaker 3: If we think about like our individual experience nested within
22:59
Speaker 3: an environment. So like, you know, if you're working in
23:03
Speaker 3: a workplace in the United States, that's going to be
23:05
Speaker 3: different from a workplace in another country. But like, okay,
23:08
Speaker 3: so let's just sort of acknowledge all of those system levels.
23:11
Speaker 3: I think And most of the women that I see
23:14
Speaker 3: in my coaching practice are struggling with some aspect of it.
23:19
Speaker 3: But like the ones, you know, where it's challenging, I
23:21
Speaker 3: think how that usually shows up is in the form
23:24
Speaker 3: of burnout.
23:25
Speaker 1: Right.
23:25
Speaker 2: So I think the way that that.
23:27
Speaker 3: Shows up is often burnout, you know, and statistically we know.
23:30
Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
23:32
Speaker 3: And the data for, you know, women of color, 77
23:36
Speaker 3: of senior level black women reported frequent burnout in 2025.
23:40
Speaker 1: Wow.
23:42
Speaker 3: If you're meeting with a group of 10 leaders, that
23:44
Speaker 3: seven or eight of those women are reporting not just burnout,
23:47
Speaker 3: frequent burnout, right? And so I think for a lot
23:51
Speaker 3: of us, that's how.
23:53
Speaker 2: It shows up.
23:54
Speaker 3: And we have our own scripts and beliefs about what
23:58
Speaker 3: it means to be burned out or whether or not
24:01
Speaker 3: we're allowed to be burned out. Number one, we should
24:05
Speaker 3: not expect this to be easy. Like, it's just not
24:09
Speaker 3: going to be easy.
24:09
Speaker 1: But then why do we try so hard to get
24:11
Speaker 1: there in the first place?
24:13
Speaker 3: Right? Because I think what happens is you notice that
24:16
Speaker 3: you're burned out. You notice that you're feeling stressed. You
24:19
Speaker 3: look around and you're like, but so-and-so has managed to
24:22
Speaker 3: figure it out.
24:22
Speaker 2: And so-and-so, I don't think she.
24:24
Speaker 3: Is struggling as much on the inside as I am. Or,
24:28
Speaker 3: you know, I've always had imposter syndrome. We start to
24:31
Speaker 3: create these narratives that it shouldn't be this hard.
24:34
Speaker 2: It should feel easier. we should be able to handle it.
24:39
Speaker 3: And so to be just for in a moment to
24:41
Speaker 3: just say, listen, no, this is hard. And it is
24:45
Speaker 3: going to probably be hard, maybe less hard. And I
24:49
Speaker 3: really hope that we can find a way for it
24:51
Speaker 3: to not be hard in your specific context. But let's
24:55
Speaker 3: just allow ourselves to have this be difficult. Because I
24:58
Speaker 3: think that's when you're like, okay, it's not that something's
25:03
Speaker 3: wrong with me.
25:05
Speaker 2: It's, it's, this is just the reality.
25:07
Speaker 3: And so knowing that now, how do I regroup, you know,
25:11
Speaker 3: and in my, in my, you know, framework, the next
25:14
Speaker 3: step is really to recognize and clarify your values, because
25:18
Speaker 3: I think that that is what will help us figure out, okay,
25:23
Speaker 3: I know this decision is going to make this person upset.
25:26
Speaker 3: And I really wish that it didn't, but I know
25:30
Speaker 3: this is the right decision because it's values aligned, right?
25:33
Speaker 3: And so then it's like, now we can have a
25:36
Speaker 3: conversation about, is it worth the cost? And that's coming
25:40
Speaker 3: from an internal place as opposed to an external place.
25:44
Speaker 1: What you're talking about is that this experience of burnout,
25:48
Speaker 1: so exhaustion, depletion, overwork, kind of chronic stress, that is
25:54
Speaker 1: the natural energetic destination of being in a role like
25:59
Speaker 1: this with all the complexities and the pressures and the
26:02
Speaker 1: relational differences and the loneliness, unless you first of all
26:08
Speaker 1: validate it And then start thinking about how you can,
26:13
Speaker 1: you know what I took from the way that you
26:15
Speaker 1: were talking about the step one, like what are your
26:17
Speaker 1: values is beginning to find these anchors of strength, pillars
26:23
Speaker 1: or compass, like whatever metaphor you want to use, but
26:26
Speaker 1: that it being more internally cultivating your trust in yourself.
26:31
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
26:34
Speaker 1: Well, let me check this out though, that part of
26:36
Speaker 1: the The burnout experience might then come from being almost
26:42
Speaker 1: like looking to others for confirmation. Am I doing this right?
26:46
Speaker 1: Is this person mad at me? Am I ruffling feathers?
26:48
Speaker 1: What would a better entrepreneur do right now? You know,
26:51
Speaker 1: as opposed to like, no, I know what I'm doing.
26:53
Speaker 2: Is that it?
26:55
Speaker 3: I think it is some of that.
26:56
Speaker 2: I think it's a both and actually. I think it's.
26:59
Speaker 3: A both internal anchoring because no one else can tell
27:04
Speaker 3: you like what your values are or what they should be, right?
27:07
Speaker 2: There's no such thing. I think each of us has to.
27:10
Speaker 3: But, but we don't, no one lives in isolation and
27:13
Speaker 3: no one lives in a bubble. So I think it's both,
27:15
Speaker 3: what do I care about and what is going to
27:17
Speaker 3: be the main, the direction, right? Not the destination, but
27:21
Speaker 3: the direction of my decision-making and also connecting with others
27:27
Speaker 3: who can also share those, you know, either share those
27:31
Speaker 3: values or help you figure out what values aligned action
27:36
Speaker 3: looks like. Because I don't think being a woman in
27:39
Speaker 3: leadership is a solo thing. I think it's ultimately, and
27:44
Speaker 3: I would say this for men too, although stereotypically, we
27:48
Speaker 3: don't think about men building their communities, but also like
27:51
Speaker 3: the male.
27:51
Speaker 2: Community has sort of existed by default. That's the status quo.
27:55
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a solo sport.
27:57
Speaker 3: I think that we do need to internally anchor, but
28:02
Speaker 3: I also think that we need to cultivate supports and
28:05
Speaker 3: relationships with others.
28:07
Speaker 2: Men and women, allies.
28:10
Speaker 3: Who can help reinforce those values and.
28:14
Speaker 2: Help us test things out.
28:16
Speaker 3: Because honestly, like some, sometimes you, you find that, Oh,
28:21
Speaker 3: now that I know what my values are, I'm realizing
28:23
Speaker 3: my organization does not value those values.
28:26
Speaker 1: Right.
28:27
Speaker 3: And that's not so like, what do you, what do
28:29
Speaker 3: you do then? Like you could keep making decisions that
28:31
Speaker 3: are aligned with your values, but that might come at
28:34
Speaker 3: the cost of your job security.
28:35
Speaker 2: Like that's a real dilemma.
28:36
Speaker 3: And that's really challenging because, So, so I don't think
28:40
Speaker 3: it's just about like, I'm going to do my values
28:43
Speaker 3: and I'm going to do me end of story. I
28:45
Speaker 3: think there's also, right. It's just not realistic. And it's
28:49
Speaker 3: probably not like, it's not going to make you a
28:50
Speaker 3: great person to work with either. You know, like I
28:54
Speaker 3: think I spent so much of my career believing and
28:57
Speaker 3: thinking that I was the only one who had these experiences.
29:01
Speaker 2: And I was ashamed.
29:03
Speaker 3: And, felt that if I said these fears out loud
29:08
Speaker 3: to other more senior, even women of color leaders, that
29:12
Speaker 3: I would be found out as the one who just
29:15
Speaker 3: couldn't cut it. And then come to realize, after years
29:18
Speaker 3: of unnecessarily striving and trying to be something that I'm not,
29:24
Speaker 3: I finally had the opportunity and took advantage of it
29:28
Speaker 3: to really have some real conversations.
29:29
Speaker 2: And then lo and behold, I'm not it's not me.
29:33
Speaker 1: Right.
29:33
Speaker 3: But so like I wasn't going to make it on
29:36
Speaker 3: my own. I think I knew what my values were,
29:39
Speaker 3: but I still was second guessing myself in the environment.
29:42
Speaker 3: And that's where I think we need other people and
29:45
Speaker 3: we need to learn. Sometimes we need to learn to
29:48
Speaker 3: how to cultivate those relationships. And that was certainly a
29:50
Speaker 3: learning curve for me when I was younger.
29:52
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can so relate to this. I feel, well,
29:57
Speaker 1: really over the last few years, you know, especially I've
30:02
Speaker 1: had the great fortune to meet and become friends with
30:05
Speaker 1: a number of other women who are in entrepreneurial roles,
30:09
Speaker 1: owning business and, you know, I can't even tell you
30:13
Speaker 1: how wonderful it is to have somebody to talk to
30:16
Speaker 1: who really understands what you're going through. And especially, and
30:19
Speaker 1: this I think is a part that often goes unsaid,
30:21
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is more prominent in entrepreneurial
30:26
Speaker 1: situations than other like organizational leadership roles, but the level
30:30
Speaker 1: of trauma that we sustain, like the Crap that happens,
30:38
Speaker 1: relational trauma, like all kinds of stuff. To be able
30:41
Speaker 1: just to have people to talk to about these kinds
30:44
Speaker 1: of things, you really get it. You know, I had
30:46
Speaker 1: an experience, I think it was this past week, actually,
30:48
Speaker 1: where I was talking to one of my good friends.
30:50
Speaker 1: Like it was literally 530 in the morning and she
30:54
Speaker 1: was freaking out because all the stuff just went sideways.
30:57
Speaker 1: And just to be able to be there for her
30:59
Speaker 1: felt great because she would also totally be there for me.
31:02
Speaker 1: But like we have to have that because otherwise it's
31:06
Speaker 1: just like it'll burn you down. Yeah.
31:09
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I have been there too.
31:12
Speaker 1: So then one takeaway, I mean, somebody listening to this
31:15
Speaker 1: right now with tears in their eyes and her eyes, like,
31:18
Speaker 1: where are my people? I mean, I have some thoughts
31:22
Speaker 1: about how I've created relationships. I'm happy to share them,
31:25
Speaker 1: but what has worked for you, especially being in an
31:28
Speaker 1: environment where there weren't that many opportunities? Yeah.
31:32
Speaker 2: Yeah.
31:33
Speaker 3: You have the opportunity to work in different places as
31:37
Speaker 3: part of your training.
31:38
Speaker 2: And so, you know, you, you know, so for.
31:41
Speaker 3: Me, you know, earlier in my career, right around right
31:45
Speaker 3: before and right after I got licensed, I was fortunate
31:48
Speaker 3: to be working at an organization where there were lots
31:53
Speaker 3: of women, I mean, psychology, tends to be mostly women,
31:57
Speaker 3: but in leadership positions too. So that was a way
32:00
Speaker 3: of just even seeing some role modeling and developing like,
32:03
Speaker 3: you know, learning how to ask people to consider, you know,
32:07
Speaker 3: offering some mentorship. I've also worked in places where there
32:12
Speaker 3: was a really toxic culture and have sort of trauma bonded.
32:17
Speaker 3: with some colleagues in those settings who, who are now
32:20
Speaker 3: like on the group chat or, you know, will be
32:23
Speaker 3: the person I text.
32:25
Speaker 1: Right.
32:25
Speaker 3: And, and I, so that, that's where I found, I
32:28
Speaker 3: think I'm, you know, kind of just being, I think
32:31
Speaker 3: that's what, that's the benefit of like validating your story
32:34
Speaker 3: and being like, listen, you're not alone.
32:36
Speaker 2: Like you don't have to.
32:37
Speaker 3: Be afraid to say, to, to, to look for somebody
32:41
Speaker 3: who may understand those struggles. You know, I, I, I've
32:44
Speaker 3: worked with so many men and women in different industries.
32:50
Speaker 3: And I think this, this belief that like, we're the
32:53
Speaker 3: only one who's going through this or we're going through
32:55
Speaker 3: this because something's wrong with us. Like not once has
32:58
Speaker 3: that ever been true.
33:00
Speaker 2: Not once.
33:00
Speaker 1: Right. Not once. Yeah. And I'll just say too, and
33:04
Speaker 1: now I am speaking as a psychologist, but, but I
33:07
Speaker 1: think for high achieving people in general, and especially high
33:10
Speaker 1: achieving women, there can also be influences of perfectionism or
33:15
Speaker 1: if I show people my flawed self, then I will
33:17
Speaker 1: be judged. And so that that can be such a barrier,
33:20
Speaker 1: I think, to those authentic connections. And I love what
33:22
Speaker 1: you just said, like, no, everybody feels this way and
33:26
Speaker 1: be the one to approach that and be authentic and
33:31
Speaker 1: create space for an actual connection. Yes.
33:35
Speaker 3: And if you're concerned about that, think about ways to
33:37
Speaker 3: find it outside of your organization. Most professions have organizations
33:43
Speaker 3: in their own field, right?
33:44
Speaker 2: So find out what that is.
33:48
Speaker 3: Maybe it's an alumni community connected to an institution that
33:52
Speaker 3: you attended. If you need the safety of somebody who
33:55
Speaker 3: is not in or connected to your workplace, then think
34:00
Speaker 3: about strategic ways to find a coach. And, you know,
34:04
Speaker 3: someone who can really help with leadership development and then
34:07
Speaker 3: even help you know how to build those connections.
34:10
Speaker 1: You have to, but that's like our connection where we're
34:12
Speaker 1: connected through APA Division 13, which is so much fun.
34:16
Speaker 1: But also I started, you know, going to other conferences
34:19
Speaker 1: and training events and just like, you know.
34:21
Speaker 2: I don't know anybody there.
34:24
Speaker 1: Can I sit with you guys at lunch or just
34:26
Speaker 1: striking up a conversation? And especially if you start showing
34:29
Speaker 1: up at the same places over and over again, it
34:30
Speaker 1: can be As easy as that.
34:32
Speaker 2: Can really change the experience of leadership.
34:36
Speaker 1: Yeah.
34:37
Speaker 2: Yeah. Shouldn't be a solo sport.
34:40
Speaker 1: No. So, hey, Dr. Natasha, we need to take another
34:43
Speaker 1: quick break. But on the other side, can we also
34:45
Speaker 1: talk about something that also have so much to do
34:49
Speaker 1: in other parts of their lives? Great.
34:52
Speaker 3: And I don't know if you think if your audience
34:54
Speaker 3: would jive with this, but given the direction of the conversation,
34:57
Speaker 3: I was thinking of like I have a list of
34:59
Speaker 3: like 50 things. Five-minute things you can do to, like,
35:04
Speaker 3: just give yourself a mental break during the day.
35:06
Speaker 1: I need that.
35:07
Speaker 2: That don't cost a lot of money. Great. Like, don't
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Speaker 1: 25% off your first order. back with Dr. Natasha Tapar-Almos,
37:33
Speaker 1: who's been having this conversation with us about the realities
37:37
Speaker 1: of women in leadership, the good, the bad, the ugly.
37:39
Speaker 1: And in this final segment, Dr. Natasha, I really wanted
37:43
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts about this indescribable experience. I think
37:48
Speaker 1: all adults who have heavy-duty jobs can experience, men, women, other, like, whatever,
37:57
Speaker 1: especially when you have responsibilities outside of work. You're a parent,
38:01
Speaker 1: you have kids, you have a house, you have stuff.
38:02
Speaker 1: But sometimes for women, I think it can feel more intense.
38:07
Speaker 1: And can I just share a personal thing? So we're
38:11
Speaker 1: connected as friends as well as colleagues. And I had
38:15
Speaker 1: the best time. You posted something on LinkedIn not too
38:17
Speaker 1: long ago where you... it was the funniest video post
38:21
Speaker 1: about like, you know, Dr. Natasha, like all buttoned together.
38:24
Speaker 2: And then you kind of panned out and.
38:25
Speaker 1: Your, was it your family room, your living room? Like
38:28
Speaker 1: a bomb went off and there's like laundry baskets. And
38:30
Speaker 1: I was like, it looks like my house.
38:33
Speaker 2: Amazing. And I liked you so much more.
38:35
Speaker 1: I didn't think it was possible, but there it was
38:37
Speaker 1: because you know, and it's like that, that like perfectionism
38:41
Speaker 1: versus the reality. Whereas like, yes. my God. Yes. It is.
38:47
Speaker 2: It is a hot mess behind the scenes. Listen. Oh
38:50
Speaker 2: my God.
38:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. But, but, but the stress that comes from that, like,
38:54
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I mean, there are
38:56
Speaker 1: days that I would like to leave work by, you know,
39:01
Speaker 1: 435 and it's more like six and, and feeling like,
39:05
Speaker 1: you know, I actually do have to come and spend
39:08
Speaker 1: a couple hours on a Saturday morning to try to
39:11
Speaker 1: even get caught up, but just sort of like not
39:14
Speaker 1: get less behind. And, you know, a beautiful day, I
39:17
Speaker 1: could be playing with my kid. And sometimes I'm not,
39:19
Speaker 1: you know, you shared a story about getting, having a
39:22
Speaker 1: work trip planned and there was a really important thing
39:24
Speaker 1: that had to get done. And you're in the backseat
39:27
Speaker 1: of the car on the way to Napa, like submitting.
39:29
Speaker 2: It was a girl's trip.
39:31
Speaker 3: One that I do, I've been doing every year for
39:34
Speaker 3: the past 13 years with a group of friends. And
39:38
Speaker 3: I had, yes, I had a, I had a, an
39:40
Speaker 3: immovable work deadline and I was tethering to my cell
39:44
Speaker 3: phone in the backseat, finishing it.
39:46
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, how do you have a life? And also,
39:50
Speaker 1: I don't know, do laundry, basement. Like I've been meaning
39:55
Speaker 1: to clean out my basement for at least a year
39:57
Speaker 1: and I get to me and I'm just like, I cannot,
39:59
Speaker 1: I can't. And every time I go downstairs, I'm like,
40:01
Speaker 1: oh my God, I hate this so much.
40:02
Speaker 2: It's a bind. I know.
40:03
Speaker 1: I know.
40:04
Speaker 3: And like, listen, I haven't figured this out. I mean,
40:07
Speaker 3: my daughter's five, right? Almost six. Pre, pre-child, I had this,
40:13
Speaker 3: you know, completely unrealistic vision that like, I'll have it
40:16
Speaker 3: figured out by the time she's three or even earlier.
40:20
Speaker 2: We'll have, you know, no, are you kidding me?
40:22
Speaker 3: Like it has just gotten more unwieldy. So I do
40:26
Speaker 3: not have all the answers. I will tell you my
40:29
Speaker 3: latest coping tip.
40:31
Speaker 2: My coping mechanisms.
40:32
Speaker 1: I'll try it.
40:33
Speaker 2: I'll test it on myself.
40:35
Speaker 3: I have had a basket of unfolded laundry that has
40:38
Speaker 3: been sitting in my bedroom for six weeks. And I
40:43
Speaker 3: feel viscerally uncomfortable. I feel totally ashamed, first of all,
40:47
Speaker 3: just admitting that. But I'm going to put it out
40:49
Speaker 3: there because again, I know. No, I'm not the only one.
40:51
Speaker 3: And I dig through it and I find what I
40:54
Speaker 3: need if I need it.
40:55
Speaker 2: And I have thought at times, I'm like, maybe if I.
40:58
Speaker 3: Just donated like 70% of my clothes, I wouldn't have
41:02
Speaker 3: to fold that many clothes. But like that would also
41:05
Speaker 3: take a lot of time and energy. By the time
41:08
Speaker 3: I go through this internal debate in my head, I've
41:11
Speaker 3: already lost 45 minutes. So I've been practicing a lot
41:14
Speaker 3: of acceptance, a lot of just, listen, this is the
41:17
Speaker 3: way it is. I know I'm capable of folding a
41:20
Speaker 3: basket of laundry.
41:21
Speaker 2: That is not the issue.
41:23
Speaker 3: The issue is I have a million things to do
41:25
Speaker 3: and only 180 minutes.
41:28
Speaker 2: To do them. So what am I going to choose?
41:30
Speaker 3: And it's not comfortable. There is a level.
41:34
Speaker 2: Dissonance that is always there.
41:36
Speaker 3: I think I have just, I have had to relate,
41:40
Speaker 3: you know, change the way that I talk to myself
41:42
Speaker 3: about it. And I'm fortunate, I'm fortunate to have a
41:46
Speaker 3: very active and supportive co-parent in my husband who, you know, are,
41:52
Speaker 3: you know, we have pretty, I think, egalitarian gender roles
41:56
Speaker 3: in our, in our household.
41:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
41:59
Speaker 3: And I'm so grateful. And that also is helpful. And
42:02
Speaker 3: his temperament is a nice balance to mine. So, you know,
42:06
Speaker 3: that has helped me enormously. But, and the other thing is,
42:09
Speaker 3: is I do tiny bits, like, you know, I'll do
42:12
Speaker 3: little bits here and there. Cause sometimes I get stuck
42:14
Speaker 3: in the, like, well, if I can't fold the whole basket, like,
42:17
Speaker 3: you know, well, I, you know, I have to wait
42:19
Speaker 3: for a time where I can fold them. And it's like, actually, no,
42:21
Speaker 3: I could fold five pieces of laundry. And like, yeah,
42:24
Speaker 3: I can put those away in two minutes and, Actually,
42:28
Speaker 3: when I do it, it has a material impact on me.
42:31
Speaker 3: So let's also not knock the impact of the small things.
42:36
Speaker 3: So I've been playing around with that.
42:39
Speaker 1: That's a really good... You know what? I'm going to...
42:41
Speaker 1: Because I don't know about you, but I think this
42:44
Speaker 1: probably applies to everyone who spends a lot of time
42:47
Speaker 1: and energy in their job.
42:49
Speaker 2: But I will.
42:51
Speaker 1: walk through my house or through my life and be like,
42:54
Speaker 1: and that's not done.
42:55
Speaker 2: And that's a mess. And I didn't do that.
42:57
Speaker 1: And I haven't sent in that form and like, you know,
42:59
Speaker 1: all the different things that haven't been done. And then
43:01
Speaker 1: I feel like, but to your point, to just focus on,
43:05
Speaker 1: these are the things that you are doing. This is
43:07
Speaker 1: the time you have available and do a little bit
43:11
Speaker 1: of the thing that matters most and be willing to
43:14
Speaker 1: maybe let the other stuff go, even though it's painful. Yeah.
43:19
Speaker 3: It is, but what's your other option? Well, your other option, right,
43:22
Speaker 3: is to drive yourself.
43:24
Speaker 2: Be mad at yourself. Totally.
43:26
Speaker 3: And then you're paying the price anyway, right?
43:29
Speaker 2: So it's like, okay, either I allow.
43:31
Speaker 3: This to be and I get used to that lower
43:36
Speaker 3: level of dissonance or I beat myself up about this
43:38
Speaker 3: every single time I walk by the unfolded laundry and
43:41
Speaker 3: I'm just like, you know, and it's just.
43:44
Speaker 2: No, that doesn't help anybody. It doesn't help me.
43:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. And to, you know, see connections with other people
43:50
Speaker 1: that are, again, in the same place. I won't mention
43:54
Speaker 1: her name. I wouldn't want to embarrass her, but I
43:56
Speaker 1: have a personal friend. who is at a senior management level,
44:00
Speaker 1: you know, at this huge organization.
44:02
Speaker 2: She's like flying all over the place.
44:04
Speaker 1: And so our kids are friends. I go over to her,
44:08
Speaker 1: you know, giant house to have playdates. And it's a
44:11
Speaker 1: freaking disaster. And it's been, no, it's so good.
44:15
Speaker 2: I love it. I love it.
44:17
Speaker 1: Like back in the day, I was the person that
44:19
Speaker 1: felt like I needed to like straighten up.
44:21
Speaker 2: Before people came over.
44:23
Speaker 1: I don't do that at all anymore. I'm like, yeah,
44:25
Speaker 1: that piece of dried cucumber on the floor, that could
44:28
Speaker 1: just stay. Because if we're going to be friends, this
44:31
Speaker 1: is great, the level of acceptance. And so I love
44:34
Speaker 1: going over to her house because it's like, yeah, just
44:38
Speaker 1: total chaos. And I was like, I feel comfortable with you.
44:43
Speaker 1: And it's also really good because we're like very spontaneous. Like,
44:47
Speaker 1: what are you doing in 45 minutes? Do you want
44:48
Speaker 1: to do this thing? I'm like, no, not today. It's like, okay,
44:50
Speaker 1: moving on. Or sometimes yes. And just like finding people
44:53
Speaker 1: who can sort of vibe with your way of being
44:57
Speaker 1: so that there's this like, yeah. And maybe notice relationships
45:03
Speaker 1: where it feels different. Yeah. Can you speak to that?
45:07
Speaker 1: Are there relationships that you stepped back from with?
45:09
Speaker 3: It's a good question. It's a good question. I, Stepped
45:16
Speaker 3: back from no, but I think like sort of risked
45:22
Speaker 3: people not wanting to like come over to my house
45:25
Speaker 3: or like people not wanting to, you know, like or
45:29
Speaker 3: or just sort of like recognizing like to to maintain
45:34
Speaker 3: this relationship in the way that it was before is
45:37
Speaker 3: going to require me to do X, Y, Z.
45:39
Speaker 2: And at this stage of my life, X, Y, Z
45:41
Speaker 2: is not happening.
45:43
Speaker 3: So like tolerating the discomfort of that.
45:46
Speaker 1: What would be the X, Y, Z?
45:48
Speaker 2: Like don't be late.
45:51
Speaker 3: Like if we make dinner plans, like don't be 30
45:54
Speaker 3: minutes late, you know, or like, you know, if we
45:57
Speaker 3: make plans, like, you know, don't cancel at the last minute.
46:01
Speaker 3: Like some of the like, you know, some of the rigidity,
46:04
Speaker 3: I think.
46:05
Speaker 1: Or we have to make plans three weeks in advance. Yeah.
46:09
Speaker 1: Those people.
46:10
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
46:11
Speaker 1: Yeah.
46:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
46:12
Speaker 3: Or like, you know, if you can't do it or
46:14
Speaker 3: if you cancel more than once, like our friendship is
46:17
Speaker 3: in crisis or in jeopardy and like we need to
46:19
Speaker 3: figure that out. And I guess like as I'm saying
46:22
Speaker 3: these things out loud.
46:23
Speaker 2: I mean, these are unreasonable, unreasonable expectations.
46:26
Speaker 3: But I do think there's a level at which like
46:29
Speaker 3: to our earlier point about finding others who can support you.
46:33
Speaker 3: I do think that's, you know, honestly, like before I
46:36
Speaker 3: had kids, I didn't know anything about anything. And I
46:39
Speaker 3: had no idea like how hard. freaking hard it is
46:42
Speaker 3: and I wish I had more empathy for my friends
46:45
Speaker 3: who were parents at the time and so I also
46:47
Speaker 3: try to remind myself of that that like listen you
46:50
Speaker 3: don't know what you don't know but also like sorry
46:53
Speaker 3: like I'm not gonna I don't sweep my floor as
46:56
Speaker 3: nearly as much as I need to and that's just
46:58
Speaker 3: the reality so if you don't want to come over
47:00
Speaker 3: I get it but like yeah I'm not gonna sweep
47:02
Speaker 3: my floor today.
47:03
Speaker 1: Word.
47:04
Speaker 3: I'm not going to sleep on my floor today.
47:08
Speaker 1: This is such a validated conversation.
47:10
Speaker 2: I love everything about this.
47:11
Speaker 1: But then this has been such a good time, by
47:13
Speaker 1: the way. But before we let you go, Dr. Natasha,
47:16
Speaker 1: I mean, you're also really working with women in leadership
47:20
Speaker 1: positions and I think one of the things that I
47:23
Speaker 1: love about your message is, yes, to validate this is
47:27
Speaker 1: actually really hard. We need connection. We also need to
47:31
Speaker 1: be around people who get us and that we can
47:34
Speaker 1: move into a space of acceptance, right? And are there
47:38
Speaker 1: also other ideas or strategies that you've seen can help
47:44
Speaker 1: women in leadership positions actually enjoy leadership? their role more
47:50
Speaker 1: and have an easier time of it, you know, beyond
47:53
Speaker 1: the emotional parts that I think we've been focusing on.
47:56
Speaker 1: And I will also say, this is a huge question.
48:00
Speaker 1: And you spend months and months and months working with
48:04
Speaker 1: people as an executive leadership coach, you're hosting groups around it.
48:07
Speaker 1: I know that you have a lot of resources that
48:10
Speaker 1: you can share with people. So I know this is
48:14
Speaker 1: a big question, but even one strategy.
48:17
Speaker 2: Sure, sure. Gosh, you asked me to pick just one.
48:20
Speaker 3: Now my perfectionistic self is like, what's the best one?
48:25
Speaker 3: What's the best one though?
48:27
Speaker 1: I hear you.
48:30
Speaker 3: There it is.
48:31
Speaker 1: Give me a mediocre one and I'm sure it'll be great.
48:35
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I have. It's in my desk drawer.
48:37
Speaker 2: So I am a.
48:40
Speaker 3: I take small, frequent, impactful breaks. So what that looks
48:46
Speaker 3: like is I have like one of those Neato things here, right?
48:49
Speaker 3: I have like five of these. I have them in
48:52
Speaker 3: my car. I have them in my desk. I have
48:54
Speaker 3: them in my work office. This is my home office.
48:57
Speaker 3: And so if I'm noticing that I'm getting keyed up,
49:00
Speaker 3: I will walk away from the computer and I will
49:03
Speaker 3: grab something tactile. So for me, it's like, it's this, right?
49:06
Speaker 3: So I'll like, I'll sit down in a comfortable chair.
49:10
Speaker 3: And I will close my eyes and I will just
49:11
Speaker 3: do this five minutes.
49:13
Speaker 2: That's it.
49:14
Speaker 3: And it's like a physical biological reset.
49:17
Speaker 2: Right. My system resets. And so.
49:20
Speaker 3: I'll do something like that. One mediocre one.
49:23
Speaker 2: And then the last thing I'll mention is I have.
49:26
Speaker 3: I have a folder that called encouragement in my email inbox.
49:29
Speaker 3: And I will, anytime I have, I receive an email
49:32
Speaker 3: personal or professional that is affirming or really affirms my
49:37
Speaker 3: contributions or the impact that I'm having. I put them
49:40
Speaker 3: in that folder and I will sometimes go back to
49:42
Speaker 3: it and I will read a few because sometimes I
49:46
Speaker 3: need to be reminded that like, listen, it might be invisible.
49:50
Speaker 3: It might be unappreciated, but like the work I do
49:53
Speaker 3: has an impact and it's real. I'm not just making
49:55
Speaker 3: it up in my head. So I go to my
49:57
Speaker 3: encouragement folder.
49:58
Speaker 1: I look for ways to like physically decompress. Yeah.
50:02
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now don't put pressure on yourself to do it. Right.
50:04
Speaker 2: Real quick. I actually, I have a list.
50:06
Speaker 3: I have a, I'm also the kind of person when
50:08
Speaker 3: you're in the moment and you're stressed out, you don't
50:10
Speaker 3: have time to think, you don't have time to make
50:12
Speaker 3: another decision to figure out what's the perfect thing to do.
50:14
Speaker 2: So I have a list.
50:16
Speaker 3: Of 55-minute strategies to manage burnout during your workday or
50:21
Speaker 3: your home day, whatever it is. Go to drnatasha.com slash
50:28
Speaker 3: LHS pod. So it's the letters D-R hyphen A-T-A-S-H-A dot
50:36
Speaker 3: com slash LHS pod.
50:38
Speaker 2: And you can download.
50:40
Speaker 3: The free 50-minute ways to stop burnout list.
50:44
Speaker 2: Five minutes.
50:45
Speaker 1: Dr. Natasha.com LHS pod. Thank you so much for putting
50:49
Speaker 1: that together because like, you know, leadership skills, competencies, business acumen,
50:56
Speaker 1: these are all things that can be learned. And there
50:59
Speaker 1: are all these other layers of mental and emotional management
51:04
Speaker 1: that need to happen or else you can't do it.
51:06
Speaker 1: And even just to have some simple ways to calm down,
51:10
Speaker 1: create some space, get re-centered. make so much impact and
51:14
Speaker 1: give us the strength to keep going as well as
51:17
Speaker 1: conversations like this with other women.
51:21
Speaker 3: This was so fun.
51:22
Speaker 2: I've been looking forward to this. And thank you again
51:27
Speaker 2: for having me.
51:27
Speaker 3: And I love talking to you about all the things.
51:31
Speaker 1: Likewise. Well, thank you for letting us have this conversation
51:34
Speaker 1: in the presence of our other friends, other women in
51:37
Speaker 1: leadership positions who need this type of energy. in their lives.
51:42
Speaker 1: And so you guys, I'm so glad that you connected
51:44
Speaker 1: with Dr. Natasha and I today. I hope you keep
51:46
Speaker 1: in touch with both of us. You can track us
51:48
Speaker 1: down on LinkedIn if you want to be friends with us,
51:50
Speaker 1: first of all. And also I hope that you found
51:53
Speaker 1: some strategies, but also motivation to begin building some relationships
51:57
Speaker 1: like this in your own life if you need more
52:00
Speaker 1: because we need each other.
52:02
Speaker 3: That's right.
52:03
Speaker 2: That's right. Thanks, Dr. Lisa.
52:06
Speaker 1: So good.
52:06
Speaker 2: Thank you.