Latest / Breakdown Besties | Bollywood Screenwriting Podcast / E35: Writers in Bollywood: STOP WAITING for producers | Vaibhav Modi
Transcript
- Vaibhav Modi: genuinely don't know a single producer or director doesn't want Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: to a good writer. Ananya: The pipeline is broken somewhere, Vaibhav Modi: writers also need to invest in themselves and brand themselves a little as a writer, you cannot be a man of one I've always found creative director title very very ambiguous Akshay: yes, I am the executive producer. I was the one who sat in my home for a year, wrote this pilot and got this whole machine Vaibhav Modi: Yeah. Akshay: running in the first place. Vaibhav Modi: while there is artificial intelligence at your call, we need to remind ourselves that there is natural real intelligence also at beck and Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Breakdown Besties podcast. Akshay and me, but today we have a very special guest with us. He is the writer and producer of one of India's most award-winning spy dramas, Mukhbir, with more than 22 years of experience. In the Indian entertainment industry, we have with us today Vaibhav Modi. Thank you so much for joining us. Vaibhav Modi: Thank you for having me. No, it's equally equally a privilege and an honor. While you give me way too much credit for having been around for some time, the thing is that, as a writer producer, I would say I started considering myself a writer producer very recently because I used to identify as producer writer. And then I realized that, you know, one small shift is required, which is as a producer writer, you are seen as a bit of a lone ranger who's doing your own thing. as a writer producer, I'm far more open to collaborations. I'm actually, in fact, at this point in time, I'm writing more for others than I'm writing for myself. So the journey for a writer and a writer producer is distinctively different. because I've also written purely as a writer, you know, when, when you're sitting in somebody's office and the reception guy calls the executive and says, you know, it is so light to, to be in that condition where you're Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: like, okay, I have to give ideas. If they don't work, I have to give more ideas. And, Yes, the labor involved in that process is obviously something. Writing is a lonely job, as we all know. But then when you are the writer-producer, everything you're saying, everything you're proposing has to be done by you. Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: So when the Mukbir opening scene shows one column of tanks ambling across this landscape and stuff like that, I am... I'm questioning myself with every word, this will have to be done by me. So yeah, Akshay: Yeah. Yeah. Ananya: Okay. Vaibhav Modi: that's a that's a very different journey. I must tell Akshay: Yeah, because and when you're writing you're like, let's like just have bombs here and there and guns here and there and you'll be like, Huh, they'll figure out. No, that's not my job. Vaibhav Modi: Yeah. Akshay: But now yeah But now you have to l source those tanks and figure out how will we shoot this, where will we shoot this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get that. Ananya: Do you often feel like your producer brain is taking over when you're writing or are you able to separate the two? Vaibhav Modi: So, you know, initially, it became a very big enabler for me because the last pass anyway should be the executive producers and I mostly executive produce most of what I make. The last pass has to be the executive producers where, you know, they're making sure that every department and every possible resource that you have, the timelines, everything is in sync. So, the economizing, actually not economizing, the optimizing of every possible thing that you have at your beck and call. And what you can enhance without spending extra money or extra time is something that having a visibility on, know, that's like being a writer producer or producer writer is like being on a watch tower. So, you you are in a war and you're in a... on a watch tower, you always have a vantage point. You can see farther. Akshay: Hmm. Mm. Mm. Vaibhav Modi: You can see what is coming in earlier. So it becomes a big tool in making sure that you're turning your own words into better visuals, so to speak. Yeah. Akshay: Hmm. Hmm. But I also think you being the EP on a project also comes with the fact that you have had so much experience, right? in executing stuff, in writing stuff. Because my very big problem today in our industry is like vis a vis vis the Hollywood, where executive producer is somebody who has all the skills, right? they have either been a writer, they have been a director, or they have Vaibhav Modi: Absolutely. Akshay: Or they have been extensively producing stuff. But in Vaibhav Modi: Absolutely. Akshay: our Indian streaming space, EP is a very loosely used credit, right? so when you say that the final pass has to be done, my EP like my heart started hyperventilating a little bit Vaibhav Modi: So, you know, the funny thing that you say this because in my very, very first job in the production business, I was a fresh MBA and desirous of getting into the creative industry. And I got hired by a very legendary television production house as an executive producer. And they used to be this very senior gentleman who was uncle to the proprietors and wise guy with a you know with a with a very cynical outlook towards everything and stuff like that and he once sat me down and he basically said said this is all nonsense this executive producer you know you are an executive producer only if you start thinking like one because you are otherwise a production executive Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: so And it was so true because, nobody was training anybody like an executive producer. Like you correctly said, I noticed it way later in my career that the first executive producer's title 90 % of the times goes to the person who wrote the spec. Akshay: Yeah, yeah. Vaibhav Modi: while we didn't even, consider the possibility that that the guy who's thinking up the idea and going to somebody with, 15 pages and saying, just give it a read and say what you feel is the first executive producer credit. I hope that changes. It is changing, actually. I'm sure you guys are also seeing. I've always found the creative director title very very ambiguous or even Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: what does a creative director do? The writer writes, the director directs, the ADs do what they do. Akshay: Yeah. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Now if the creative director's role is completely dependent on how driven is the guy in that position, know, Akshay: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: that's a very big loophole, right? So you can't Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: really depend on that whole thing. And that's the reason why a lot of creators are also getting to be hands on with, know, especially in the the series space. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Movie is a director's medium. So that's a that's a very different. Akshay: Yeah, we truly get that because more and more conversations are coming up where writers want to enter production. They really are trying to command that almost respect in a way, which is that, yes, I am the executive producer. I was the one who sat in my home for a year, wrote this pilot and got this whole machine running in the first place. So I am Vaibhav Modi: Yeah. Yeah. Akshay: actually a producer because I took the risk of spending my time without any money, which generally what a producer or a businessman will do. Vaibhav Modi: Thanks. Akshay: can I say a small anecdote? Okay. For the longest time I did not see Mukhbir. I'll tell you why. Because Vaibhav Modi: Okay. Akshay: at the 2023 SWA Awards, there was a category called Best Web Adaptation. And it had story, screenplay, dialogue. And you were very well deservedly nominated along with your team. And I was also nominated along with Ananya: Yeah. Akshay: my team from for Mismatched season two, okay? And we were n nominated for best story, screenplay, dialogue. And every time, like while we're going at this, we're like, we might win, we might win, you know, we might win. And then I see, okay, best story goes to Mukhbir. Okay, we can still have the screenplay. Best screenplay goes to Mukhbir. Maybe we'll get dialogue. Best dialogue goes to Mukhbir. I was like, what the bloody hell? Like I was so mad. And you know, when go. When you go into these things, you're like, you know, being nominated is enough. I don't want to win. Nothing is great. And then you see those big award trophies they get. I'm like, I really want one of these. So once my ego sort of got destroyed, I was like, okay find let's watch Mukhbir. Vaibhav Modi: Sorry for having subjected you to Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: three disappointments, I'm sorry. Ananya: So since we're on the topic of Mukhbir, where were you? how did this story, this book come to you? What was the idea behind adapting it? How did you find it and decide that, okay, we have so many spy stories, but this is Vaibhav Modi: Thank you. Ananya: one I want to tell. Vaibhav Modi: So in fact, it had a little bit of a precursor pretty much around the time when the world was kind of being pulled into the pandemic and all that. Zee had already, I think Puneet had already identified the book and he was desirous of creating something. And also if you remember, there was a slightly different time for the OTT space. So the ambition at their end was to create something, you know, very rich and very different. And it kind of changed guards a few times because it wasn't your... cookie cutter model where you just take a story and you say, it's sounding great. Let's just make it. So they got a couple of people associated with that. It walked its own destiny and its own mile in the beginning. A few people who I would like to mention over here, writers like Aseem Arora, Sajid, I did not even meet them during that process when they were all working on this project. Shivam Nair, who was thought to be the most promising director in that space at that point in time because he was fresh out of special ops and he's done Naam Shabana and all that. really entrenched into that space. So, they were already working on it and somehow... it wasn't coming together and there was a time when I was called in by Zee5 and they asked me what do you think about the book per se and it's a massive like it's a massive book with a very fine print but Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: I went through it and I shared my thoughts and I was shared some material also and I just told them what all can be done to it. And we kind of felt like a bit of a meeting of minds in terms of how I was seeing it. And There were a couple of executives on the Zee5 side. I would like to mention people like Nimisha Pandey, who was heading the creatives at that point. Then there was Pragati. Then there was Rohit. You know, they were equally, if not more passionate than I was towards making Akshay: Well Vaibhav Modi: the show fly. So somehow the energies converged. Shivam was also, Shivam had another associate, Karan Oberoi, you know, he's an actor, but he's also got, you know, creative jobs. So it became a bit of a village, right? And initially when I came in, it was more, the role felt more like... harnesser of the wild elements a thing because everybody had their everybody had their thoughts and pluses and then Arshad Sayed was also on Arshad Sayed was actively writing at that point in time but Akshay: Hmm. Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: we knew that he had a film on the horizon so Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: in the middle of all that tumult so to speak arose one responsibility that okay you have to produce it you have to be the administrator but you also need somebody who will bind the whole thing and this and that so initial discussions with Shivam and with the platform and all everybody thought that I should step up and I was secretly hoping I would be put in that place because it was so delicious the promise of writing it but then I didn't want to say that now you guys are giving it to me to produce and I was anyway going to do a lot I am a lyricist also so I was looking at it as an opportunity to do some great period creation with music so all that was very exciting and then I had to write it too! Then slowly slowly I got into it and yeah so that's how it started and a very important thing at that point in time was that there was this change of guard so we had to be very careful with what has already been done and what we want to do So it took us a couple of months to do that kind of adjusting. And once that got out of the way, the other director after this, also had been associated with it. So like I said, it was a village. And then there was a lot of streamlining. The scale was, initially it looked pretty daunting. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: But yeah, it came through beautifully, is all I can say. Ananya: And when you talk about a change of guard, I understand that you were still working with the writers who had done the initial story? If based on the credits or no. Vaibhav Modi: Actually not, because when the change of guard happened by the time people had done their bit and they had you know they moved on to other things and it arrived in our lives in a state where there were some very strong points of view which were you know strong decisions that were already made. So Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: at every point, was a very big, I'll give you an example also. It was a very big decision to say the right thing would be to make it like this, but hell, know, so much work has already gone in. So you are saying, okay, now I have to think like a producer. also have to think like a writer. I also have to keep the directors on board. Like I'll tell you, when you think of Pakistan in that era or another era. You your first instinct as a writer, for every writer pretty much is, you know, janaab yaha aaye tashreef rakhiye, Hindustan ko Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: kar denge and this and that. And that's how the writing existed. Akshay: Hm. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: It was me who pointed out that you are 65 kilometers from Amritsar. Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: Lahore actually was the center of the anti-Urdu movement. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: Where the populace after, it was 20 years after independence, right? So Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: the populace was, you know, they were very, very opposed to the whole idea of speaking Urdu. In a Punjabi speaking location. So now this means everything after that changes from, janaab yahaan tashreef rakhe to, you know, ki kar daba hai and it's a big decision and there's no fence sitting on that. So the only way I could do it was to display how it will be. When I say it as an idea, everybody is like, you know, you're right. But then the association, the, how will it look like? What I've asked? Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: Okay, then you have to, it's almost like saying, I'll write another spec. Akshay: So Vaibhav Modi: And I opened the thing with, and obviously this meant what I'm, what I'm telling you, this also meant that a lot of the way the story was unfolding and the way the screenwriting had been done till that point in time also had to change. So the first frame if you remember is camera following a guy who's singing Heer. You know, Heer is this Akshay: Hmm. Mm. Vaibhav Modi: folk, love ballad. He's singing and the conversation just easily smoothly flows into Punjabi. Akshay: Mm. Mm, mm, Vaibhav Modi: That's the conversation happening and right there there's this guy, this Professor Manzoor Alvi or somebody who basically is Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: like, and then that scene just went when I narrated and then I looked up and I realized that people are more worried about the guy being shot in the foot. Nobody really, nobody really, really Akshay: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: realized that, okay, there was a Punjabi folk tune that was being hummed Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: and all that. I'm like, one job is one job is done. Akshay: Yeah. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: So, and a lot of such similar kind of things where you're where Akshay: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: you're constantly, you know, saying it is only 20 years after independence. So, cannot be the idea of Hindustan Pakistan was not the way it exists today. Akshay: Today. Vaibhav Modi: So you're constantly making those changes in characters, in spoken word, in small, small, you know, screenplay elements as well. was one scene where Prakash Raj's character is supposed to arrive in Srinagar. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: And he wanted us to figure out how we will shoot the Srinagar airport and this and that. And I was just somehow not convinced about it. Akshay: Mm, mm. Vaibhav Modi: And I was looking up and then one day I found that in 1965 there was no Srinagar airport. So Akshay: Ha ha ha. Vaibhav Modi: I went jumping to him, sir, there was no airport in Srinagar at that point in time. So he's like, you're only happy because you don't have to do the VFX. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: I'm like, no, I'm happy because I have, as a writer, I have something in mind. He's like, what? We cut from Delhi to a Srinagar road and from behind a cycle rider, one guy with a monkey cap and whatever, there's this guy who's riding a cycle and we reveal Prakash Raj. He's like, kuch to sharam kar lo, kuch to sharam kar lo. Itna sasta idea dete ho. Yeah, but we didn't do that. Akshay: But it's economic, it works, it fully works, yeah. Yeah. Now, what I'm hearing is that the world is so expansive. There was so much material from the book. Vaibhav Modi: Thank Akshay: There is so much work the other writers have done now. But how do you go about navigating research of this? Because it's so much, right? Vaibhav Modi: So yeah, the one thing about research, and I teach in lot of media schools as and when I get an opportunity. And I always emphasize on one point that as a writer, as a producer, as an executive producer, you cannot be a man of one passion. If you're not a curious mind, if. A question comes to your mind when you look at something and a question better come to your mind. If a question comes to your mind in this day and age where you have so much information at your fingertips, you better get it out of the way. And somewhere a neural network of, various disciplines and various spaces start forming in your subconscious mind. And the biggest joy of writing is to put that at play. So while there is artificial intelligence at your beck and call, we need to remind ourselves that there is natural real intelligence also at our beck and call Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: which needs to question everything. So this whole language thing comes to play. So what happened was the recces were going on when we were finalizing the dialogue. And while most of the people around me were happy with how it was shaping up and we were all very excited and stuff, I just kept feeling like I'm sitting in Chandigarh and not Lahore with what I'm writing. Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: I felt that it was 20 years ago sector 17. It wasn't Akshay: Well Vaibhav Modi: feeling like Lahore in 1965. Akshay: Mm. Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: The book obviously doesn't capture any of it because Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: the main conflict in the book is about the 71 war. We transposed Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: it to the 65 war because we wanted to take the... characters and the espionage, the human intel network etc. So there was nothing to dip into from the book's point of view. On one of these recces, when we were in Punjab, we were looking for what could look like Pakistan and it was closer to the border as well. I just kept thinking what is it that is is missing. and I decided to stay back after the... this benefit that you know you can take these calls I said you know what I'm gonna stay back for two three days I'm gonna continue writing I'll also do some going about the place and do whatever so I started walking out on the street you know taking the... they have these public transport is it's called Vikram there's six, seven people sit in an auto like kind of a thing. So I would take Akshay: Hm, mm, mm. Vaibhav Modi: those and chat with people and then one day it struck me why it is feeling like it is not today. Like it is today and not, Akshay: Today who Vaibhav Modi: not then. And then you will see how it played out. The thing is. Back then. People were not in a hurry to do anything. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: Today, if I keep talking for 20 minutes more, you'll start looking at the watch. The basic difference, you take the phones away from everybody. You take Akshay: Well. Vaibhav Modi: the next place to be from everybody and see how people become, how they talk, you know? Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: And that is where, you know, when somebody goes and like a spy is talking to somebody. He needs to be in that rhythm, Akshay: Mm. Mm, mm, mm. Vaibhav Modi: And one filter like that, is where it all kind of sounding very authentic. the other thing also was, I come from Rajasthan and it's been like my pet peeve to to hear Rajasthani being called a language. There's no language like Rajasthani. There are 49 Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: dialects, you know, in Rajasthan, each one of them having their own specific flavor, etc., etc. But the moment you see a character from Rajasthan, this is how, there's a Bollywood version of Rajasthan. There's a Bollywood version of Haryana. There's a Bollywood version of whatever. So to step away from that, I started finding out and I realized that the middle Punjabi, what it was at that point in time, it had a very different feel. They would constantly be, there will always be humor. Akshay: Mm. Mm. Vaibhav Modi: So the conductor in the has only dialogue. But what he says is that... He is not going to say... that please move aside. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: He will that "why are you getting up my ass?" "I'm about to fall." Akshay: Hmm. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: You are talking to a stranger, Akshay: Well Vaibhav Modi: He also has the time to talk back to So you Akshay: Hmm. Yeah. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: know... when you start looking for those things... is when Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: you also start having fun. How do I say it differently? How do I make it sound time wise correct and temperament wise correct? Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: Hmm. Akshay: Yeah, I one of the biggest awakenings of my learning has been like try and reduce as much functional dialogue as possible, right? Like if if a bus conductor had said, here's your ticket like that adds nothing to the scene, right? Vaibhav Modi: No clue. Akshay: it's fully like something can be chopped on paper only. Forget the edit. Vaibhav Modi: True, true. Akshay: so I love that that each character gets to say something different, you know, because in We've covered this in our podcast also, and Ananya has rightly said, in each of their characters' minds, at least they are the hero of their life. Right? Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Nobody is a peripheral character. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Yeah. Akshay: You worked extensively so much over the last two decades. And I feel like our industry changes every three years or every I would actually say every year it changes in some way. And Vaibhav Modi: That's true. Akshay: and it's a full cycle of an up and down. How do how does one navigate that? Because I feel right now the change happening is so massive, right? Like you have AI coming in, platforms which used to be so promising with either budgets or time. now it's all of that has gone kaput, essentially. so Vaibhav Modi: Yeah. Akshay: how does one deal with that? That uncertainty of the cycle will it ever break? Vaibhav Modi: Well, I'm a little old school about how I deal with this. So the first part that comes to my mind, and I'd like to mention something over here. My parents were with broadcast. They both worked with All India Radio and I saw, you know, a creative industry which was completely owned by the government. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: So, they also had their own frustrations, they wanted to do a lot of things and they had to there was a lot of red tape ism And even speaking of before Prasar Bharti came into being, you know Prasar Bharti was actually an attempt to bring it closer to private sector so that it could be like Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: a corporation rather than you know just completely being a government on Akshay: A wing of the government. Vaibhav Modi: wing of the government. I just understood one thing that there are people who will keep it alive and then there are people who will adapt to survive. These two types of people will always there. Then within the people who are trying to keep the creative spirit or their desire to create alive, then there are two people, two broad categories within that. There are people who will depend on enablers and then there are people who will become their own enablers. In terms of most writers and I had the same problem. Most writers either are moved to the sideline or they choose to move to the sideline because physically it is impossible to spend your time doing other things when you have, you know, 15 pages to finish. And it is exhausting, we all know. But then I think writers also need to invest in themselves and brand themselves a little bit. also get that front of house exposure, have their voices really being heard and not just in terms of their ideas, but in terms of, how they think. Look at the West, Most writers become institutions, successful writers become institutions in themselves. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: The tricky part over here is that when that kind of success arrives in our in our business, most writers will want to become directors. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: Right? There's nothing wrong with that. I want to direct films also. But then to be a brand as a writer or as a writer producer or as a writer director is very, important. And you need to work consciously towards that with like what you guys are doing. You know, you are. You are walking in that same direction, but opening up another portal, another another medium, another dimension. So all writers must do that, if they want to create a brand out of that. that's, think, going to be very important. I'm not saying that all writers should become influencers. But the idea over here is that you are a content creator. Own it. Accept it. Akshay: Hmm. Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: Your creation of content cannot be dependent on somebody giving you an opportunity. Akshay: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: So yeah, think that's the bridge to get into the next phase where, and a lot of people are doing that, very Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: happy to see a lot of people doing that. Akshay: So Ananya: Definitely. Yes. So because we were talking about point of views and opinions right now with writers, also speaking about it in your script. So you did a phenomenal job in the pilot of establishing so many characters, right? Because you have everyone from the prime minister to your raw officers to your spy to people in Pakistan. And every series must do this. It's but it's a hard job because every character needs to be interesting and memorable enough such that the audience wants them to return to screen, but they can't take up more real estate than necessary in a tight episode. So when you're crafting an ensemble like this, what is your thought process or trick to ensuring that your characters are able to straddle these two different ideas? Vaibhav Modi: So for once, I'll give you a very brief answer. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: So just two things. One is in a world of an ensemble, if you can get somebody, get everybody to do or say one memorable thing. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: 80 % of the job is done. Secondly, what came to my advantage or benefit was the fact that once you've accepted and your director has given you the leash of taking your time. Shivams somebody who will see a in the moment of urgency, he will see somebody getting off the car, walking through a long corridor, bring him inside, adjust something on the table, sit down before saying one word. So if you're allowed to do that. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: making your characters say something memorable becomes even more possible Akshay: Hmm, hmm. Vaibhav Modi: and that does the job you know so for me when a murti sits in front of the prime minister and he says up "aapka kya kaam hai?" he says winning the war without fighting that's the show for me Akshay: Mm. Hmm. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: you know The Dadi character it's in a later episode but There's a Dadi character who... Who just says one thing? We were refugees too. We were Indian as well. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: In one line, you Dadi's personality. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: She hasn't liked the displacement. You know? So that Akshay: Hmm. Yeah. Ananya: Mm. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: gaze goes away that she is she with India. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: She is that when we packed our stuff and left India we were also Indians. Right? Akshay: Hmm. Yeah. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: And she doesn't have so much to do in the series. So I Akshay: Well. Vaibhav Modi: have to use that real estate with stuff that can be memorable. Akshay: Yeah. that's what we noticed Ananya: Yeah, absolutely. Akshay: that what you said, that urgency, but he'll adjust something before sitting on his chair and the Ananya: Mm. Akshay: Prime Minister opening the curtain for the light to come in. Again, such as like such a real human moment, right? Like of course, like the Prime Minister won't sit in the dark. Vaibhav Modi: Not just that, we actually edited out an entire... So I had written an entire sequence where Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: in the middle he actually says, have you guys eaten? Because it's lunch time. And there is a plate that comes in front of him and he says, sorry, I need to take my medicine. Now, you know, that is Lal Bahadur Shastri for you. Akshay: Hm. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: that guy who took a loan from SBI to buy his only owned car, a Fiat car, he believed that, I cannot live a regal life being a Prime Minister of a country like this, right? Akshay: So Vaibhav Modi: So how show him? How will you show that in this room? So his Akshay: Hmm. Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: plate comes, the roti, dal, sabzi and asks, did you guys eat? They say yes, Akshay: Hm, yeah. Ananya: Hm. Yeah. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Prime Minister's office. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: So yeah. Ananya: Even to give these characters this one line, this grandmom For that one line, you have to know your character really well, right? to understand where she's coming from. So, how much time do you spend developing these B and C characters before you actually put them into the script so that they're as rich and as they come to life the way they do? Vaibhav Modi: the one big asset for a writer in a... And I'm saying this more specifically when there is a lot of world building involved. Akshay: Mm, hmm. Vaibhav Modi: Reading better than watching any day, you know, and listening better than reading. Akshay: yeah. Vaibhav Modi: The moment I started writing, and knew that, okay, dialogue is completely going to be my, this thing, I plugged into Shivam Nair who's seen that world. I wasn't there in the sixties. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: My parents were, Some of their friends were, Shivam was. I just... I just, put my tentacles in them Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: and I would just Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: make a talk about random things. Keep asking them questions. Ananya: Hmm. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: So much of this has come from listening to these three, four people who have actually seen those times because when they get transported into their time and then when they say anecdotes, Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: is probably standing behind somebody in my scenes. Akshay: Mm. Ananya: So you mentioned your parents worked or were working with AIR and so you obviously grown up with this background of media. So how do you think that has shaped the way you look at the industry vis-a-vis someone you've met who's an outsider who's never had a l an an understanding of what working in media entails, and you come in with all these cliches that you never make money, it's really hard, and no one explains why. So how do you Think that background helped you and what would you want to share of that with new writers who don't have this background? Vaibhav Modi: So, you know, truth be told, all through my childhood and my youth, it was never the idea to join this business. I never wanted to do this. I just accidentally, I don't think that I call it accidental. Anybody would say, this looks like it was meant to be, but it was accidental, first of all. Second of Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: all, being around the ecosystem of Akashwani or Doordarshan actually never gave me a good look inside the structure of this business. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: What I saw, although, was I saw and felt music, literature, upfront. I was immersed in that world. We were getting transferred every two three years. So what used to happen was that now who will go and new friends every time, who Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: new ecosystem, do this, do So the easiest refuge was the All India Radio Library which in any city back then used to be the richest library of music and literature. So there would Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: be LPs and there would be books and there would be air conditioning which wasn't affordable Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: in a normal small Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: town household. To aur kya Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: chahiye, you come back from school. You go, you are accepted in that ecosystem. So the librarian would basically say, okay, what do you want? And you'll say, I that LP, I want this, I want Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: that. The exposure to literature and how All India Radio back then was holding, and I'm talking about the 80s, 80s and a big part of the 90s as well. At time, was that, All India Radio was probably the last standing fortress of keeping Indian classical music, various folk forms because for that, unfortunately in our country it takes a government backed initiative to keep it alive. Akshay: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: Commercial cinema, commercial theatre was not really keeping all that. So that was so rich. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: And today it is so easy for me to dip into that mentally. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: That's my, I call it my inheritance. So that's what Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: my parents actually did for me. Then it takes me like two minutes to say, I want one character to be a classical musician. I know names of 10 people. From Malik Arjun Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: Mansoor to Kumar Gandharv, I know their life stories to basically say, this was their Gurukul, they were from this gharaana, you know, Akshay: Well Vaibhav Modi: what does it take to... I would say that was the big inheritance I got rather than an understanding of the industry. Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Hmm. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: is, the understanding is still going on. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Probably will never understand it. Ananya: So we were stalking your IMDB in researching for this interview, and we saw that one of your first credits on your IMDB is a creator of Jo Jita Vahi Superstar. Right? So how did that gig come along? What was your journey to getting there? It looks like your first thing ever, but it mustn't have been. So how did you get there? Vaibhav Modi: No, wasn't. Yeah, it's just that, before that I was mostly into, you know, corporate side of broadcast. So usually what happens is Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: that those titles don't really, you know, get captured very thoroughly. So I'd had a journey with Sony and MTV and all that. Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: Jojita, I'll tell you how it came about. I had just joined Endemol and we were really aggressively looking at creating a music show. And at that point in time, every channel had three and a half music shows already. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: And those titles were doing very well. They were being produced by the the doyens of that genre. and they were all doing well. So this was a bit of a challenge. And Endemol was known, I joined as the creative director and it was known more for captive reality, adventure reality and those kind of things. So people would not really look at us as a, you know, as a music and dance, Akshay: Reality so mm. Vaibhav Modi: kind of whatever. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: So we just strategized a little bit around that and we said What if the first Indian Idol where Abhijit Sawant was the winner, what if he was today challenged by the runners-up which was Rahul Vaidya, equally if not more popular at that point in time, to basically do a once over again? Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: Have a face off a thing. that's how the idea actually started. So Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: we took, it took us a couple of months to speak to all of them. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: The runners up were more ready and eager and willing to come on board and saying, yes, yes, we want to do it. And the winners, a lot of these winners were gracious enough. It is one of the most intense music shows I've worked on in my life because on one hand you had six, eight seasons of winners on one side and you had six, eight seasons of runners up on another side and they all got their A++ game because it was like a second chance for some and for some it was like I have to prove that I was the rightful winner. Akshay: Yeah, yeah. Vaibhav Modi: It was at that point in time it was during the finale it became the highest rating music show at that point. We Akshay: Wow. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: had some 5.6 Tvr for a period of three hours or something. Crazy it was. Yeah. Ananya: It's mad. Insane. And from there you went on to head the programming of non fiction at Star, right? Then when did the idea of starting your own banner, of starting Victor Tango come? Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Victor Tango. So Victor Tango, Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: I was at Star for some time and I realized that having a designation which kind of binds your, it limits your scope. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Being the non-fiction Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: programming head in itself is it sounds like a life sentence, know. Akshay: Ha ha. Vaibhav Modi: Okay, you can do this. You know, Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: and so I thought about it and I... realized that I had gotten at a place in life where I would want to experiment more. I would want to do my own kind of stuff, have my own voice and Ananya: Well Vaibhav Modi: stuff. There is a cost to it. And the cost is that if you stick to a corporate position and just manage to stick to it and do a good job of it, your growth is a certain kind of growth, right? Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: financially and in terms of how important you are in the ecosystem. So Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: that's also Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: a choice a lot of people make. I wanted to be a little more flexible in terms of, you know, looking at a book, loving it and saying, I'm going to do something about it and having that freedom. So that's something I chose. I actually started a company called Bolt. Bolt Media which was funded by Balaji and I did some really cutting-edge work over there created a series called Dharmakshetra which was a courtroom drama set in the courts of Chitragupt where he prosecutes all the characters from Mahabharat. Yeah. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: And I think you can still find it on Netflix if I'm not wrong. It was produced for Epic at that point. And this was me and my... partner in crime Shantanu Shrivastava, the writer of the show. It was like two kids in a candy shop kind of a thing. We had a great time doing that. And a bunch of other things were created during that time. And then I moved on to start Victor Tango. We have, because of my, you can call it a whim, we've managed to never be assigned to a genre. Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: have a, I mean, even if it sounds like blowing my own trumpet, I have a Filmfare for best non-fiction and, you know, some of our fiction work also has been, you know, applauded. Ananya: And now that you're doing all these projects, especially as producer and you're putting together projects too, you're obviously casting a lot of writers as well, right? In your writer's room. So what is your process of casting a writer's room for a particular show? How do you pick and decide that this person will be a good fit so that people are diverse but also come with a similar set of maybe values so that everyone can work together? Vaibhav Modi: while I would say that it's a very instinctive and intuitive kind of a process, but when I see the outcome of that instinct and intuition, Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: the people who are collaborating with me, I just see three very consistent themes. Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: One is discipline. So somehow I always end up choosing people who are in the same zone of discipline as I, you know, Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: there are exceptions, but then they never get repeated, so to speak. But Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: because you know, it's uncomfortable for everybody. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: You don't want to spend your time doing ke isko iska kya hu raha hai, uska kya hu raha So that's Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: one thing. The other thing is, if there are people who... it might sound a little funny or whatever. I just like working with kind people. Ananya: Yeah. Yeah. Akshay: Yeah, of course. Vaibhav Modi: So, and writers, Imagine somebody being under the most amount of pressure, okay, being tossed around and being whatever. If they remain kind to, Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: you know, people around them and when somebody is exchanging ideas with them. Because today who I speak to as a writer, my creative team and my production team will be talking with them. So that overall vibe is very, very important. Ananya: Yeah. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: And then the other thing is exposure to diverse worlds. Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: More often than not, what happens is that everything starts with some genre equivalent when you're working on a project everything is about this one is like that show this one is like that show Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: and then you realize there are people who have who are dipping into something else and Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: that's something else if you can listen to it and if you can if you can borrow Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: it from them and if you you if you can have a good time doing that these three things Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: I see that these are the three things that keep repeating in Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: people we collaborate with. Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: And we're also a very, very pro writers kind of a company for obvious reasons. Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: you know, my team also kind of, you know, treats writers with a lot of, a lot of care and a lot of, you know, consideration and concern. So usually, that environment, you feel that you can work like a team. Ananya: Hmm. Yeah. Akshay: I'm so glad you're doing that because I've often felt the person who is actually the most vulnerable in the whole industry is the writer, right? The fact that somebody has written Vaibhav Modi: Yeah. Akshay: this, and now I'm describing very small moments of either my life or somebody's life or even of this character's life, which is almost a window into my personality. your your actors can come in and they add their life into it, and that's a different thing. But the fact Vaibhav Modi: Yeah, true. Akshay: that you've put something on page and somebody's reading it, it's such a more personal dynamic involved. So yeah, kindness has to be there for sure. Yeah. Ananya: And speaking, these are the three main traits you look for or you end up casting for in your writers' rooms. Now, similarly, you also must be receiving piles of like pilots and films, right, as a production house. So what is it that you look for when you read when you go through this slush pile of scripts that has landed in your inbox? Vaibhav Modi: I'll be very honest about it. That's Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: a very messy part of our lives. So if we have engaged with something, somebody has sent a script we've liked and now we are trying to pitch it to somebody. First Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: big question. How do you remunerate the writer? Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: reading somebody's idea and saying, great, I'll go pitch it. But then after that, the process of pitching is where I actually discourage most of the writers who come to us. I discourage them to just keep on developing stuff and hoping to get a window with a platform. Akshay: So Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: Because in that process what happens is they reach out to a lot of people, a lot of producers who don't put the development money on the table. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Then before you realize you've gotten sucked into this whole, kuch hoga toh bataate hain, kuch hoga toh bataate hain, and then after three months nothing is happening. I go through the same disappointment. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: But I have a business. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: In my mind, I have a notional cost of doing business. Akshay: Well. Vaibhav Modi: So I still try to create that sense of justice and balance over there. But then Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: I'm now telling you my side of story. It becomes so difficult to keep locking as I'm an independent producer, right? So to Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: keep locking time and money in ongoing discussions. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: I have something in discussion right now, which was written a year and a half back. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: There's no return on it. There is time going on. More scripts have been read after that. More scripts have been written after that. So just managing that is a very messy part of the whole thing. Akshay: Well Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Unfortunately, the volumes in OTT have gone down so much Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: over the last few years that the whole sense of going on doing this is diminishing. Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: That's Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: a big challenging part at this point in time. Akshay: Mm. Ananya: So what alternatives do you think at this point do new writers have to enter the industry? Because we get this question a lot and even we are struggling to answer it. Vaibhav Modi: Yeah, It's actually a tricky one. See a platform will engage with somebody who comes with credential, Akshay: Who Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: or a connection. And then if there is something that can blow Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: somebody's mind, there will be a gainful outcome. Writers who are beginning with starting out and stuff. I think people have to be realistic about getting your own proof of concept Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: and getting your own voice and having credentials on the table before, Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: you know, before thinking I will go to 20 people and tell them my idea. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: Imagine if I had to tell my son, okay, because Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: that's where I will be completely, you know, true to myself and to him Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: when I give this opinion to him I would actually say get your name on that credit have your Akshay: Hmm. Yeah. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: IMDB presence and you know that's the most important thing. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Do want to keep once you're there on somebody's radar it'll be easier you Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: know And try, try to ask for what do I get in return? What's my credit? What's my, what's my compensation? Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: It's getting that first foot in the door, which I think is very difficult for most people. After that, once you know people, you've it's all relationships. So Vaibhav Modi: Yeah, and I was, don't know where one of the podcasts only this whole Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: discussion was going on. And I said, I genuinely don't know a single producer or director who doesn't want Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: to a good writer. Akshay: Hmm. Hmm. Ananya: Exactly. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: I don't think there's anybody who says, okay, who needs a writer? Akshay: Mm-hmm. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: Right? Everybody does. So Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: where is that gen loss? Ananya: The pipeline is broken somewhere, like them two are not. Vaibhav Modi: Somewhere. Yeah, kuch to hai. Haan, ho jata hai. Akshay: I think it's also a Ananya: Exactly Akshay: lot of the big producers want to work with the same writers again and again. So then it becomes like a funnel of sorts, right? a closed funnel of sorts that it's easy to work with this writer, like that that come with this kind of credentials. a little bit laziness comes in there that who will go scout for writers, who will read their scripts, you know? So I think Ananya: Hmm. Akshay: it all becomes like a like you said, a broken system of sorts, right? Vaibhav Modi: So interesting that you say this because you know my mind would like to just assign this to the laziness people Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: have but there is a slightly more granular truth to this. You know when I have collaborated with established writers me being a co-writer in that scene and the other writer being way more established and brilliant credentials and stuff like that. Yes, I have found a lot of, you know, like you feel there is not enough elbow room and you know, is Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: baggage and this and that. But at the same time, the... The value of experience in writing and direction is massive. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: There's so much to learn from established writers when they are... Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Sometimes they'll choose a very unpopular in the room kind of a thing and you're Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: like, I don't feel it and that and then when you live with it, you realize it is... cumulative intelligence and experience of many Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: projects and I don't know what all has gone into it. Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: A producer would lean on that experience, Akshay: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Because new writers have to be made space for the Akshay: Hm. Yeah. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: established ones or the experienced ones need to just like move away. Ananya: Mm. Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: As you were saying all of this, I was just thinking about how Akshay I also got our starts and we were mentored by one or two writers for about four or five years. I think they saw a bit of a spark and then they said, Okay, join the show. And we worked our way from assistant writers to writers and, you know, heading writers' rooms then. So if we could create something more like to put writers, younger writers under the wing of these experienced writers. where they can do some of the grunt work in exchange f as a knowledge exchange. I think somewhere we might get towards fixing the broken pipeline somewhere. Vaibhav Modi: Yeah, and that's happening. That's Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: happening all around us. There is also... last four or five years, and you guys must have also experienced, last four or five years, the Screenwriters Association is also doing a lot more to strengthen the community. And they're right now also speaking of getting royalties, et cetera. Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: So yeah, I think some sort of community initiatives will definitely help. But Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: one thing is, I am going to be 50 next year, so it's a little late to be realizing it, but better late than never, that with the number of mediums available today, Akshay: yeah. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: you know. You should do something or the other where you consistently keep creating and keep being heard or seen or you Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: you put your word to test as I call it. You know what Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: can what can what can sound like a great idea inside your mind. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: First needs to go on paper then it needs to either be on screen or on a speaker or something to say "is this working or not?" Akshay: Mm. Mm. Ananya: Hm. Vaibhav Modi: If you it somewhere somewhere somewhere somewhere We live in the age of visibility, right? Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: that's important. Akshay: Yeah, for sure. Ananya: Absolutely. And the cost of failure also when you're doing that is very low. So you can keep iterating, iterating and improve your craft. Vaibhav Modi: And you know, interesting that you speak of cost of failure. The cost of failure is actually decided by how fast you fail. Ananya: Yeah. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: So, instead of waiting for greatness to come knocking on your door, feel fast now. Feel Ananya: Real fast. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: fast and move on to the next thing with whatever learning it is. Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: Absolutely. Sure. Akshay: You spoke about learnings from the project. So when Mukhbir was fully packaged, it was put out for the world and you know, you get this kind of acclaim. What were your learnings about the whole show? Like whether it comes to your process, what do you think you unlocked which sort of had never happened for you before? Vaibhav Modi: Something very interesting happened that the span of the project allowed investing the learnings back into the project. Akshay: Hmm. Ananya: Mm. Akshay: nice. Vaibhav Modi: So I didn't have to wait for the next project Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: to put all that back. We shot it over, four states, three states in over a period of four months. And I was very, very clear from day one that I'm going to create music that will... that will be so different from anything that's happening. So we start, I'd already recorded two songs before we went on floor, which gave a lot of, because one of the characters was a singer, know, Begum Anar was supposed to be a singer, fashion somewhat on Noor Jahan's character. Akshay: Hmm. Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: The learning started coming in early through the process of writing and when we started shooting, whether it is about period, whether it is about how much time do you spend with an actor to basically get them to realize that era. Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: And we worked with some fantastic actors, Adil Hussain, Prakash Raj, Dilip Shankar, Atul. So these guys we knew they will blow our minds when they get to it. And then there were hidden gems who completely blew our minds when we saw them living those Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: whatever. So as we were learning from them, Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: we were also making changes to how things were playing out in the... in the months to come. So Akshay: So Vaibhav Modi: a lot of learning basically went back into the making of the same thing. Initially Shivam sir has complimented me on two thingS: that instead of two lines of dialogue, two pages of dialogue, you've given me, you've added more to the screenplay. and the dialogues are one sentence, two sentences, total of six dialogues. Akshay: Mm. Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: So you've actually puzzled me first and now you've given me an opportunity to do much more in this scene because now I'm only looking for subtext and Akshay: Well Vaibhav Modi: now you're making me work harder. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: And this initial cue then became very important for me. And then I just started Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: looking at as a dialogue writer you don't need to flex Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: flex karna hai to ye karo na ke kam se kam bolke you know sometimes an exchange of looks is a better dialogue than anything else silence Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: is a better dialogue how you playing with that silence is the thing so yeah that was that was one thing ek aur cheez jo period ke liye jo samajh main aayi hai na wo ye thi When people refer to something else, okay? Live it in your head. What you're seeing is a very different mechanics. you saw it and you reacted to And somebody is saying an anecdote. That I used to listen to this song in my childhood. Right? You have to feel it. You have to get in that space and then see whether somebody thinking about or... reminiscing about a very deep emotion or whatever it is, whether he's going to talk that much. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: so it's very subtle. It's very sublime to talk about and to make somebody feel it. It was a very important process to the whole thing. And nobody is seeing it. It's happening here. People Akshay: So Vaibhav Modi: will see the result. But you have to be aware. Ananya: Now, after this process, was there something you wished you'd done differently after having seen Mukhbir through? Vaibhav Modi: We could have definitely shot lesser. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: that's a producer speaking. And from a writer's point of view, nothing comes to mind as such. I don't know what I have done differently Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: as a writer. I can't think of anything. Akshay: That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Ananya: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: there's a credit that is due over here. On the dialogue, it was crazy the amount of support we had in terms of We never had that kind of feedback from the platform saying, iski jagai yonache the, iski jagai aesa honache the, iski jagai aesa honache the. There was one particular instance where the Pakistani president, he uses a word. He says, the imbeciles who are flanking you and The Z-Five team said that the audience won't understand this. Akshay: Hmm. Vaibhav Modi: I requested them that it might not work for the audience. He has such a voice. Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: The guy is a military dictator. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: Ayub was an army general who became the president of the country. Akshay: Foo, Vaibhav Modi: So much time he spent in Britain. Now to explain if I say that these useless people or whatever some cuss word or whatever it is, like Akshay: Hmm. Well. Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: I it so tight, watertight and everything seems authentic, just because that I would rather not have him say anything. Then they said okay fine, let it be. Akshay: Hmm, hm. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: So that was there. I would have not edited out a couple of things if I had my way. Akshay: Hm, hm Vaibhav Modi: So one of my most favorite scenes was a scene where Yayah Khan, he makes the ISI guys wait. Now here's Yayah Khan who is a corrupt dictator in the making, know, debauched guy, beautifully played by Harsh. I'm like, I thank my stars who have landed Harsh for that role because he brought him, he brought Yaya Khan to life like nobody else could have. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: know, became Yaya Khan in, you know, in real life. So. Zaid-e, played by Dilip Shankar, he goes to meet him and his sidekick asks him, this scene is not in the series by the way, so Zaid-e asks him and he says, we always get insulted. Why do we keep returning? He asks, have you ever played hockey? Akshay: Mm. Mm. Vaibhav Modi: The winning team, the losing team, the players, they all get fame, wealth, all that. But you know there are people who make the pitch. They dig the ground for two, three nights before the match. They put their hands in the dirt, right? They stay up all night and nobody even knows they're there. Nobody, nobody shouts slogans for them. You know why? And he's like, why? It is because they love hockey. They are not playing hockey, but they love hockey. And Pakistan is our hockey. So we'll make the pitch, whether we are respected for it, regarded for it, we'll keep dirtying our hands. And here I wanted to bring out that whole contradiction of saying he, this guy, the asshole, villainous, brutal, nasty, menacing ISI agent. is a hero in his own right. Akshay: Mm. Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: He doesn't care about anything else Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: except for one thing. I love my country. He doesn't even have a vested interest like his president or the general Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: who glory who wants who is corrupt Ananya: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: He just wants one thing. Akshay: Mm. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: There are a couple of scenes that I would have loved to retain but then what happens is this is where we really indulged. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: In writing shooting it, playing it out, we were a little carried away. Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: And then obviously we were given a rap on the knuckles by the platform. Akshay: Ha ha ha. But tell me this is to twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, when this conversation. Vaibhav Modi: came out in like end of 2022 so the play out practically 2023 was like the year of Mukbir being accepted and celebrated so to speak. Akshay: Yeah. So how was the conversation with the platform like? How supportive were they? Did they get into a lot of creative notes? Did you have to navigate a lot of them? Like how was it like with working with the platform on this? Vaibhav Modi: There was mind-blowing support and it was made how a show should be made. Akshay: Mm. Vaibhav Modi: And see, I, without saying it in as many words to other platforms, I do try to imply that see when when you allow well-meaning, self-driven people who are committed and passionate. If you allow them, they all want to do a fantastic job. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: So the fact that the, especially these three people, know, Nimisha, Rohit and Pragati, the fact that they did not question the way I was thinking about the dialogue, the spoken word, as well as the music, the lyric part of it and stuff like that. Similarly the look and feel, the production design and all those kinds of things, we got really good support from them. Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: It really enabled and empowered us. Akshay: That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Ananya: Great to hear that happen. Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that just fills you with so much, not just, you feel empowered, but you also feel responsible. Akshay: Mm-hmm. Vaibhav Modi: You're, know, you're being doubly sure. That somebody's trust is, is in my, know, capabilities right now. So Ananya: Yeah. Akshay: Yeah. Vaibhav Modi: yeah, it was, it was, it was beautiful. Yeah. Akshay: Very cool. Yeah. Ananya: Nice. Wonderful. This was a Akshay: Yeah. Ananya: phenomenal conversation. Thank you so much for providing so much input. Vaibhav Modi: I loved speaking to you guys and I anyway love people who let me talk so much.