Latest / GAIN Momentum / Progressive Luxury with EAST Hotels and The House Collective | with Dean Winter

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Progressive Luxury with EAST Hotels and The House Collective | with Dean Winter · GAIN Momentum

• ​GAIN Momentum episode #48- Progressive Luxury with EAST Hotels and The House Collective | with Dean Winter === Adam Mogelonsky: Welcome to the Gain Momentum podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, food service, travel, and technology. I'm joined by my co host Michael Cohen. How are you? Michael Cohen: I'm great. Thanks for, uh, leading on as always, Adam. We appreciate it. Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. And our special guest today is Dean, Winter, managing partner of Swire Hotels. Dean, how are you? Dean Winter: I'm very well, Adams. Good to see you again. Great to be on the program. Thank you. Adam Mogelonsky: Thanks for coming on. Uh, quick, uh, context here. For Michael and myself, it is 9 p. m. Eastern Time on the Eastern Seaboard. We're both recording from the Greater Toronto Area. And Dean, you are in Hong Kong. Dean Winter: I am precisely 12 hours ahead of you. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, exactly. And, uh, just adding that point of context in here, because we [00:01:00] work in a global industry and this is a fairly common, common thing. It is part of the industry is taking calls either early in the morning or late at night. to work and collaborate with others halfway across the world. So Dean, uh, I'm wondering if you could give us some background on the relationships that exist between Swire Properties, Swire Hotels, and then the two brands below that East Hotels and, uh, the House Collective Dean Winter: Sure. Thank you. Uh, well, Swire Properties is our, holding company. They are a 50 year old, quality property developer here in, initially in Hong Kong, but more increasingly in the Chinese mainland. And, uh, have been owners of office buildings, retail malls, and hotels during that time, and a big residential developer as well. we are the subsidiary hotel company, the sort of owner manager model currently, where we manage with our own brands, as you say, the house collectives and East, a number of [00:02:00] hotel assets within the Swire Properties portfolio. Um, there are international operators within the portfolio as well. For example, Mandarin Oriental in Miami is, is wholly owned by, by Squire Properties as is Mandarin Oriental Guangzhou, also owned by Squire Properties. And a number of other, you know, joint venture held, properties of our hotels. So we are the, the owner operator of the, brands. And Squire Hotels is really a kind of B2B, sort of, Collective name, if you like, for both brands. It's, it's a name that we, we're trying to sort Of play down in the consumer, in the consumer world, probably much like IHG is, or that, that kind of, you know, umbrella, umbrella company name, as opposed to a brand as such. So we focus a lot on the Haas Collective name and the East Hotels name. And we've got these two unique brands, which I'm happy to tell you more about in this, in this meeting. Adam Mogelonsky: course. Well, let's get into our first major question here, which is Dean, What single piece of advice would you give to [00:03:00] aspiring hoteliers and other industry leaders? Dean Winter: I was kind of thinking about that and it kind of makes me feel really old when I get asked that question. So I still think of myself as a 25 year old aspiring hotelier. So, um, I'll try and put my, my 58 year old hat on and, uh, and give you an answer. Um, I think, you know, we're, we're living in an increasingly impersonal world. And I think, you know, for all the reasons, you know, you know, through these various digital devices that we rely so heavily on. And I think, I think the advice I would give is really try to stay connected in a personal way to both employees and guests. I think that, that's a trait, a quality, a, a need, I think, that is. It is in some risk of being ever increasingly diluted, and I think the hotel industry, regardless of where you position yourself, going to be one of those industries where human beings can know that they can get that personal connection, and I think leaders in the [00:04:00] industry, whether that's general managers, or corporate executives, or whatever, need to stay in Be aware of that human need, I think, to keep it, keep it personal, keep it real and stay connected to both guests and employees. Michael Cohen: It's interesting. obviously a seasoned veteran in the industry as you are, and some of us are too. Maybe I'm not, maybe I'm older than you. I have no idea. So I'll, I'll, I'll just play that position. But what's interesting is when, business is about people, it's a people business. We hear all these things. People say these things. Right. Dean? People talk of this and, we've, I think we all agree, hopefully, that the most successful executives, the most successful leaders, be it young, you know, mid career or senior, are the ones that have been able to really develop that skill set of dialogue, listening, guest speakers. Or staff, uh, you know, people that the, the inventory goes down the elevator at night, as they say, right? And, sometimes when we talk out to people outside of our hospitality world [00:05:00] and they're in finance or they're in construction or they're whatever, they kind of, I found, they kind of think, oh, isn't that quaint? You guys are about people, you know? And I go, Yeah. And then the most successful people are the ones who know that, you know? So it's well, well put. Dean Winter: Yeah. I think it's, I think there are so many examples of this that I see every day and, and when it comes, when you think about recruitment and you think about, you know, hiring people for attitude and personality more than technical ability, I think that's a really important consideration as well. You've got to hire people that know how to talk and start conversations and be memorable. so we, we've always sort of focused on that very young post grad kind Of profile and higher on personality and attitude for that reason as well. It really helps. Michael Cohen: Excellent. Adam Mogelonsky: you train for that? Dean Winter: That's a great question. Adam, I get asked that a lot. I think, I think the short answer is yes, you can, but you need to have good bones to begin with. I think that you've got to have that certain, I mean, I, on the [00:06:00] sort of Myers Briggs profile, I'm, I'm more of a, an E rather, more of an I, introvert than an E, extrovert. But I know what I need to do because I love this business, so I know that I need to turn on the E in my profile when I have to, and I think, I think it's re identifying people that even though they may be introverts, got the ability to be able to, to be an extrovert when they need to be or want to be. So, I think if you've got the right bones and you've got the right, you've got the right, um, personality, then you Can be trained you know, storytelling skills, conversation skills, and developing a memory around, um, Recognizing a guest, recognizing what they like and what they don't like, and having a sort of tenacity around documenting the fact that someone likes a window table in the restaurant, or is a vegetarian, or must have a foam pillow, or these things that we need to capture in a system somewhere. That tenacity, I think, is also part of that personality and their desire. to ensure that those preferences are delivered on a future visit. So, [00:07:00] those are the trainable bits, but I think you've got to work on a, on a, with people that have the right, the right sort of attitude and the right bones in the first place. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, you started in food and beverage at Mandarin Oriental, is that correct? Dean Winter: Uh, I started as a chef a bit before that But I would consider my, time in Asia was certainly with Madden Oriental. Yes, that's Right, Adam Mogelonsky: Because as, as I understand it food service is first off, not for the faint of heart, but also requires a lot of extroversion just to get by in a very, a very, tight And, uh, clustered space like a kitchen. Dean Winter: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. and and also, you know, it's certainly in the, kitchen. You need other skills. Maybe this isn't the podcast for that, but, um, I think, uh, uh, yes, you're absolutely right? I think, and this notion of, embracing the fact that every day is different, right. and going to work every day, feeling excited about who you're going to meet and what kind of [00:08:00] challenges are you going to be faced with and what's the dish of, the day going to be today. And that kind of you know, colorful, you know? environment that I remember just loving to go going to work every day you know? being part of a team and so on. So I think, I think there's, yes, there's, there's definitely elements, lots of elements of the food industry, food and beverage industry that play to the preferences and likes of, of extroverts. Adam Mogelonsky: as I see it inspiring people as well, if, if you know that every day is going to be different, that's part of the value add of hospitality. Dean Winter: Completely. Michael Cohen: And hospitality, eventually hospitality leadership, which is, I think, obviously goes into a lot of this conversation today is, without patronizing you, Dean, you don't end up in your position if certain skill sets, let's oversimplify, are not intrinsically part of who you are, because You're also working in a geopolitical, geographic, um, multicultural, multilingual, I mean, I've had the good pleasure, and perhaps I know Adam's traveled extensively [00:09:00] too, I've been to Hong Kong 15 times in my life for brute business and pleasure, I've been to Guangzhou, I've been through all the, you know, I've stayed at some of the Mandarin Hotel, I don't know, the MHOG hotels, or used to be one of my clients way back when in a previous technology implementation, you know, years ago. There's a level of complexity. That you have to, it's like you have to be a, uh, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong. You have to be almost like a conductor of a symphony sometimes in these kind of regions because there's other layers of complexity, other layers of inputs that are not typical to a luxury hotel in London, sometimes, but not as much as in Hong Kong or in LA or in New York City. There's a whole other range of layers in my opinion of other inputs, other challenges perhaps that, uh, need to be, you know, nuanced and managed sometimes. So I don't know what your opinion is of that, but that's how I see it from the outsider looking in. Dean Winter: No, absolutely. I, I, you're right, Michael. I would add though that, that [00:10:00] I think you also, in that chaotic environment that you've eloquently described, you, you need to trust you need to delegate, and build a team of people that you, that you know can deliver what it is you're trying to, you know what, whatever your ambition is and somewhere in there as well, you also need to accept that things will go wrong and, that's okay. You know, we're a, we're a people business. Every day is different. Things never go to plan every single day. And it's really how agile are you to react? how do you respond? How do you recover a situation, both with a guest, a paying guest, and also an employee that may feel vulnerable after something goes wrong? So, you know, what's the management culture? What's the coaching culture of the organization? Is the embryo, if you like that kind of sits around everything you've described? You've got to create the environment to, to allow people to be confident. to express themselves and, and know that it's okay when, when things go wrong. I think if you're in an environment where there's tension or there's, fear about failure. [00:11:00] Ultimately the guests will feel it and in a negative way. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, talking about chaos And, things going wrong, I think that's a good segue into our second main question, which is, Dean, what are some of the challenges or setbacks you've experienced when rolling out a new business expansion or partnership? Dean Winter: somewhat topical, Adam, because as you know when we met before, we've been telling you about our sort of, plans to, to sort of morph from an owner operator model to a management company. in an attempt to extract more value from, these brands that we've, that we've created and work with other developers. and we kind of scratched our head a long time about that. And our owning company was also a little kind of, had some trepidation about, us jumping into bed with, with other owners and developers in various parts of the, region. So there was some convincing and lobbying to be done. And then, once you start to engage with, developers, it's, you really start to sort of understand how the world works outside of, outside of your little hotel company. you see the [00:12:00] bigger picture. Uh, we, we, we didn't invest a lot In a development team, we felt that we would take a more sort of organic approach because we, our ambition is really not to have as many flags as we can in one year, for example. It's really about It's really about, being with the right developer in the right location for the right, for that, brand. So, we've realized that, first of all, the first point to answer your question is that it's an acutely competitive industry. and when you think about it, you know, the, the gains, the rewards, and returns are considerable for a management company because they don't, it's There's no capital requirement. They're convincing someone else to cover all the bills, build the hotel, pay for the staff, pay for the fit out, pay for the marketing, pay you for your brand. and you, you take a fee and, you know, happy days. So, that's somewhat of a holy grail in a way, and as a consequence now in this world of distribution and loyalty and brands and so on, we've very quickly realized that [00:13:00] the sort of conventional management agreements, With the sort of fee structures that are traditionally in place are, just, you know, in the wind. I mean, I think there's, everyone's being very agile. Everyone's being very, um, uh, you know, to get the right hotel in the right location that's going to be the right asset for their, portfolio is, is, they'll throw everything at, at it to try and get it. And we realized that there are, in the room and we're, you know, We're the little guinea pig on the wheel trying to learn and so that was definitely the case in 2018 and, we've had an amazing kind of six years of, albeit around COVID as well, of course, but an amazing six years of, of finding out, what it is that, You know, how do we make a bigger noise about who we are and how we differentiate and which ultimately led to this repositioning of the East brand, which we shared with you when we, when we met they just needed some clarity in there about what is East and, you know, the Haas Collective kind of speaks for it, for itself. But, so that's been a learning. for sure. and then also with those deals that we have [00:14:00] got signed or that we are, the prospects that we are, you know, inches away from signing, and we've got a handful of those as well, is that you've just got to be patient. You've got to, you've just got to bide your time. And as much as you want to drag the pen to the page and get it signed, There are other factors in these people's worlds which, which, which influence, you know, how things are done. So you have to really learn how to sort of take on a, a much wider perspective and consideration for the factors and what causes delays and those, those hotels that we have signed. Um, yeah, for example, our Tokyo property, which has been announced, is now a little bit delayed. So, there are things that are out of your control. Um, so that's, that's definitely been, I think, the two big, two biggest learnings. Probably a long answer to your question. Sorry. Michael Cohen: No, it's a really actually great answer because, other people that you know, Dean, and we know well, and over the last 25 years plus that many of us have been in this industry, the, uh, I keep hearing things like there's ebb and flow. You have to, you have to start building your business strategies and some of your [00:15:00] forecasting around ebb and flow. And some folks, what do you mean by that? Because you cannot control everything, which is what you said very clearly, and you need to have some ability to have some flex a little bit, or a little bit of bend. So that you can, uh, you know, take advantage of opportunity that may be a little bit different than what you thought it was going to be, or maybe there's a delay, but how do we handle that in the most productive way, if there's, can we move resources to another project, et cetera, et cetera, and you know better, Dean, what I'm talking about, but that concept of, of, uh, being able to be in control, have strategy, Have your targets and KPIs and forecasting goals, but be realistic in the fact that we have to have sort of multiple paths to success. We will get to the, we will get to the promised land in some way, shape or form within our parameters, but it's not going to look exactly like we thought it was going to look like. Dean Winter: Completely right. And, and yeah, you've also got to have the people on, people with you that, that also understand that and have a tolerance for that, right? Once you've got that little voice in the room that's saying, this is [00:16:00] unacceptable. Why is it taking so long? Come on, let's just, Then, you run the risk of the deck of cards falling down, right? You've just got to make sure that everybody is on board with, with, as you say, the ebb and flow, and there's going to be days where we'll have, where we'll have great news, and there'll be days when we have less great news, and everyone's got to understand that, Michael Cohen: And another thing that, Adam and I and many people within our, within GAIN and our organization and our clients like yourselves, a lot of times, uh, there'll be a part of a meeting where either myself or maybe someone in your seat will say, welcome to hospitality folks. It's like, we all know why we're here. We all know why we love it. We all know what the challenges are too. And if you're an outsider, usually investors, outsider coming in, well in our, how we build office buildings, I understand, sir. This is hospitality. In any Dean Winter: I'm very familiar with those with those challenges, Absolutely. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, I'm wondering, uh, if we could give a little bit more context here, because we're talking about the East Hotels and the [00:17:00] House Collective. These are luxury brands. So I'm wondering if you could unpack a little bit, some of the more unique challenges that come along with building a luxury hotel Dean Winter: you know, I've, I've worked for Mandarin Oriental for 14 years. Before that, I was, I was, you know, a management trainee with the Savoy Group of Hotels and Restaurants, which doesn't exist anymore in, in London, and my first London job was at Claridge's as Michael Cohen: there you go. Dean Winter: a trainee, which, which, uh, you know, doesn't get more luxury than that. so definitely my, you know, my, my DNA is, is well embedded in that environment. And, when we started out with our opposite house hotel in Beijing in 2000, it was built in 2005. We took it on in 2006. we opened in 2008. The managing director of Suai Hotels at the, time was another Mandarin Oriental colleague, Brian Williams. And he and I together sort of mapped out what it was about, In fact, we didn't really have a brand then. It was Swire Hotels and the Haas Collective didn't exist Because it was one [00:18:00] hotel and we were in Beijing, which was just a construction site pre Olympics with, you know, every brand in and their brother kind of, you know, building and so on. So, we tasked ourselves with, you know, how are we going to differentiate? how are we going to stand out? We've got this beautiful design driven Kengo Kuma designed hotel with, with, you know great rooms and so on. So we kind of set about understanding what were the pain points of of today's traveler, and how at that time was really Business travel was, really taking off a lot more business class seats on airlines, for example, a lot more participation from luxury hotel brands in corporate RFPs, for example, because, you know, they've been on this expansion plan. expansion drive and ended up with a, you know, a 500 room hotel in a city like. Singapore or Hong Kong, which they knew they couldn't rely on the leisure market to fill, so they had to [00:19:00] go out and get corporate travel. so all of a sudden the banker or the insurance executive or the lawyer is, is flying in the front of the bus And staying at Mandarin Oriental on their business trip. So where does that profile of guests stay when they're spending their own money with their family? and how do we present, or rather, how do we deliver an experience that is as good or better than what they're experiencing on their business trips? Um, whether that's the experiences that We provide outside of the hotel, whether it's the restaurant, spa, And so on. But we started to realize that actually, the service delivery had become, Extremely kind of scripted and the way that a front desk agent at the Ritz Carlton spoke to you was very similar to what the front desk agent at the Four Seasons was saying and it was the use of your name and you know, welcome back Mr. Cohen and you know, would you like a newspaper Mr. Cohen and three bags full Mr. Cohen and all this type of use of Michael Cohen: Keep Dean Winter: which Michael Cohen: [00:20:00] I like it. Keep it going. It's good. Yeah, no, I got you though. Dean Winter: Which, which, you know, seem to be, seem to be the sort of, in the eyes of the training departments of these brands, seem to be the sort of metric of, quality that, you know, how many times can we use your name? Whereas we were thinking, well, actually that's just insincere. That's not real. That's not how real people talk to each other. So how do we keep it real and how do we, so that really formed the basis of our service philosophy and then sort of, we started to bring in this. You know, hiring young people and coaching them and training them through this philosophy that we had and trying to avoid bringing people from other brands that maybe bring their bad habits and so on. So we've hired a lot of people that hadn't worked in the industry before. and then technology, you know, how do we get away from this sort of paper heavy front desk environment, Michael Cohen: Sure. Dean Winter: which sometimes looked like the, you know, like the counter in a, in a kind of stationary shop, you know, with You name it, it was, it was there. So [00:21:00] we introduced sort of a paperless arrival and departure process, you know, credit card handling and registration on an iPad and so on. We were the first to do that. And, benefiting, I think, a lot from our, owning companies, Wired Properties, having a big sort of R& D team in, in IT. we introduced, we were, we were the first hotel in Beijing and later in Hong Kong with the Upper House to introduce complimentary Wi Fi in the hotel limousine. and, uh, I remember driving out to the airport with the head of IT with a, with a, with a modem in the trunk of a car and our laptops watching YouTube on the way to the airport. It was amazing. so to answer your question, I think it was, definitely a period of, trial and error. it was definitely understanding the profile of the customer. and what their needs were. We also stayed in a lot of hotels to sort of see what, the competition we're doing, we didn't really get a sense of what real success looked like for us in other hotels. and then I think that philosophy, or at least the kind of, the basis of it is really what's [00:22:00] sort of evolved over time and, being expressed in a different way. and enriched in each of the hotels that we've opened, the Upper House in 2009, the Temple House in 2014, and then the Middle House in 2018. so, each opening, we've obviously learned what we've learned. Not been good at in the previous opening and and then technology has changed of course and Talent has evolved and we're very fortunate to have a lot of people that have been with us since the beginning who have Really, you know express the brand Superbly, so so that's really I think for us how we've carved out our luxury proposition amongst the competitive set, I think to some extent, we're still able to differentiate for similar reasons, because I think a lot of the larger brands, in a way, have become very hardwired about, about what they, what their belief is, and that's nothing wrong with that at all. It's just different. And I think the other thing I should quickly say, [00:23:00] Adam, is that Brian and I at the time knew that what we would do wouldn't appeal to everybody. And that, that was okay. We weren't going to get kind of hung up about the fact that what we were doing may not appeal to everybody. and we would accept the fact that someone, some guests would arrive paying for a five star product, but there was no chandelier, no sweeping staircase, no thick pile rugs. it was Kengo Kuma, Japanese design, very edgy. And we knew that people wouldn't like it. And we, but we said, that's okay. There will be many, many more that do, and there'll be advocates, and there'll be, contractors. But I think that's a narrative that you, you, don't often hear coming from the bigger brands. they will always want to appeal to everybody. And I think that doesn't always work, I don't think. And I think you've got to be bold and brave and accept that you're not going to appeal to everybody. but that's okay. Michael Cohen: It's interesting, um, first of all, really well put and uh, what also is interesting is in my history when I've interacted with people around your brands, obviously not with you [00:24:00] Dean, but other people in the brand, about your hotels and your chain, a couple of things, I almost felt there was like organic luxury versus uh, Nothing wrong, nothing wrong with the Ritz Carlton way, of course, it's extremely successful or Izzy Sharp says you do it this way and this is how we're doing it. That's how you scale and be luxurious. You can be a luxury brand that scales because you have to have a framework that. maybe, quote unquote, could be rigid or it could have just high principles, let's put it that way, right? But what I've always heard about your, brand and, and your hotels it's kind of, um, Organic luxury and also, uh, you said the word edgy. It's very interesting. I've heard terms like, um, it's an acquired taste luxury. Adam Mogelonsky: Term I've used is progressive luxury. I think that's Michael Cohen: so much better than me. Much nicer way to put it. You're right, Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, it's the it's the progressive luxury brand similar like prog rock evolved out of rock And roll, right? Michael Cohen: That's right? [00:25:00] Okay. Dean Winter: I think that word also kind of expresses that to our philosophy again, that progressive would indicate that you're also kind of learning as you go, right? It's not, you're not keeping to a formula and, and, and sticking to it in a kind of religious way. You know, you accept that you've got to be agile, you've got to adapt. And if you're going to Michael Cohen: yeah, the organic, again, it wasn't me that said it, uh, two other people over the years I just remembered organic, and that's, I think, what you're talking about is that there's a, there's a, you know, it, it evolves and it, and maybe it perfects, and obviously, like you said, Dean, there's a ton of replicable success methodologies and processes that you've put in the, organization over the years, of course, but still having that, you know, that energy. Dean Winter: Yeah. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, I think it's a good point to touch on before our third major question here is where you are right now, which is Hong Kong and The two brands you command out of Hong Kong are following in a [00:26:00] very prestigious line of luxury hotel brands that have come out of Hong Kong. Mandarin Oriental, The Peninsula, Langham, Rosewood, and probably many others that you know being on the ground. So, I'm wondering there, is part of your value proposition that you've given for the House Collective and East Hotels, is part of that also a reaction to differentiate, but also learn from those, from that time honored history of Hong Kong? Dean Winter: yes, I think, I think so, you know, I came here 32 years ago, was, you know, fortunate to, land a job in the Mandarin Oriental as a, as a restaurant manager and, and It's just an incredibly memorable experience for, for all the things you're alluding to, right? It was the legacy, it was the luxury, the legacy, the history all the stories, all the, you know, how Mandarin Oriental, Two hotels joined together to make that name and so on. It was absolutely [00:27:00] sort of instilled in me. And I think that, yes, it has, it did shape us, in terms of this desire to kind of obsess about the customer, right? It's really about, and that was something that in London during my time, of course, the customer is important and guests were recognized and so on, but it but there wasn't this obsession, obsession that's something that I think that I, you know, I've, I've kind of, brought with us, along the way with, certainly the House Collective. I think as well, because Brian was not in Hong Kong at The time when we started, but, uh, I was, the kind of story that I remember I was standing in the lobby of the Mandarin Hotel at the time I was, I was, um, sort of EAM, there was a general manager and myself and, and, uh, he was a great, sort of legendary general manager and we stood in the hotel lobby this guest was coming out of the elevator this was the At a time when luggage had changed, and you'll know what I mean when I say this, right? It had gone from the kind of under the arm [00:28:00] handle luggage to a bag on wheels, right? This was like, you know, 2005 or something. And, um, these, you know, these bags were everywhere. And there was also, I think at the time, maybe some concerns about, say, security and holding on to your bag and, you know, Don't let anyone else touch your bag, that kind of era. Anyway, this guest was coming out of the elevator with their trolley bags, and the luggage porter, in their very nice sort of Asian uniform, went running over using their script of, How may I assist you? And the guest was like, no, no, it's okay. I've, I've got the back. you know, they were pushing it with one finger, but it was just easy. And then there was this, I observed this kind of almost like this kind of tug of war between the employee that had been told they must offer assistance and this guest that didn't want it. and I remember saying to The general manager at the time, I said, you see this over here, this is change. This is what, this is now. a pivotal moment that we're observing where we need to think differently about what [00:29:00] services and accept that guests, guests don't want the fuss that they used to have. They've changed. and I think it was the best expression of of that pivotal moment. And we laughed, of course, about it and so on. And then when it came to designing the upper house, which I was involved in, and then later was the pre opening general manager and so on, we, you About all these moments about script and what does the customer want and if we could work out a way of making it easier for people to arrive and depart through through the paperwork, the registration and the payment and so on. Having observed, you know, queues in the in the lobby of the Mandarin when people wanted to check out and so on. and recognizing that when you're leaving a hotel, nine times out of ten, you're in a hurry to be somewhere else. You've got to get to the airport. You've got to get to a meeting. You've got to buy a gift for your wife. You've got to, you don't check out of a hotel and then hang around, right? You always, you've got to be somewhere. So why do hotels make it so hard [00:30:00] to get out? You know, so let's try and just eliminate that whole process through, you know, We introduced obviously technology and a different process and so on. And I think those initiatives, and there were many more, those initiatives came from spending 14 years in Hong Kong? not just at the Mandarin, but observing other hotels and understanding this guest obsession, which is good, but it also can be a negative for the guests if you don't understand and know how to, to deliver it. So I think your question is very poignant in as much that it absolutely did. Did shape what we started out and have started out as and have become since this, alternative way of delivering a premium hotel experience. Michael Cohen: How does, um, to cross reference that, so that's, let's call it regional and, and that, that intense luxury incubator, special luxury incubator of Hong Kong. How do you take the, how have you taken it over the years, the cohort changing for luxury, like the [00:31:00] demographic changing, the, you know, Gen Xers, when we were Gen X age to even think that we would stay at one of your hotels? So, all of those would be outrageous. It would be unrealistic actually. But now, I walk through luxury hotels and thank goodness there's 20, early 20 somethings, you know, experiencing it, Instagramming the experience of course, but that whole change of how, I guess, the expansion of the pool of potential customers for luxury, how has that, uh, kind of made a difference in your planning and execution over the years? Yes. Dean Winter: certainly things, little things like dress code, for example, right? I mean, the Mandarin, you wouldn't get into the Mandarin Grill without a jacket back in the day. So, and I think to some extent, to some extent, they may even on certain evenings, you know, Still ask you to do that. We don't care about dress code. If you, if you want to come in in sneakers and shorts into Salustera, the upper house, that, that's totally fine, right? We're not. So I think it's one of those, one of those little [00:32:00] things that, that makes it just more accessible and makes that, that Gen X profile, wealthy Gen X profile, feel a lot more relaxed, feel a lot more kind of, it doesn't matter. and then I think as well, this notion around, around being flexible, right? so whether it's the early arrival time, the later part, the late departure time, try not to have too many rules, right? I think if you, if you say, well, no, no, no, you've got to give the room back by 11. I think Gen Xers just get, you know, agitated by that kind of, well, I'm paying, so why can't I? So, so then we're not so hung up about, about departure times and arrival times. Obviously, there's exceptions, like we're right when you're full and so on. and then I think technology, of course, is the obvious one, right? So, we did away with all the printed compendiums and, and, you know, directories and moved it all on. Initially, we had the little iPod touches in the rooms, which replaced. Yeah, you could order room service and so on. that's now all shifted to, to IPTV. and, you know, a high [00:33:00] speed bandwidth wifi. We were one of the first in Hong Kong to, to offer it complimentary, um, many hotels for several years after us still insisted on charging for it. Um, it wasn't in the sort of 2012 kind of era where people started to realize it was, it was like hot and cold running water. You just, you didn't charge. Michael Cohen: It was Oxygen. It's funny, Dean, but one thing I do remember, do you remember the Handy units? Handy? Yeah. So I was involved in that initiative throughout Hong Kong and the company that came out of Hong Kong and Macau for that. Dean Winter: had it at East Hong Kong for a while. yeah, Michael Cohen: I know you did. that's, why I'm bringing it up. and, uh, but that was a perfect example of the Hong Kong. market initiative. Um, leading, you know, uh, being open minded at, I would say, upper scale luxury to bring that kind of technology was basically, for listeners and viewers, just, and it's not about me, but it's relevant to Dean, I knew, this was when you got off the, plane, [00:34:00] you could go to the hotel and you would get a mobile device, That was ready to cook, walking around Wan Chai, walking around, you know, uh, other parts of Hong Kong. And it was part of your experience in the, as a guest in the hotel room. You could take a device out of the hotel room and you're connected. You can be like walking around, making calls and so on. So It sounds now, like, Oh my goodness who cares? But in 20, 2012, 2013, it, was magic, groundbreaking, but that's Hong Kong. That's that region for sure. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, we're talking about 2012 and current initiatives. Let's get into our third major question, which is, Dean, what do you see as the biggest opportunities for growth in hospitality in 2025 and beyond? Dean Winter: the obvious one is the economy needs to, the economy needs to bounce back, right? We're kind of, we're definitely at, you know, in a challenging segment of the cycle at the moment. So, but I take your question as being more trend driven. So, you know, I think it [00:35:00] is what we're seeing, is that this post COVID luxury travel in this part of the world, it's happened in Europe, it's happened, I think, as well in the U. S., where people have wanted to sort of get back to, to a luxury experience, happy to pay whatever it is. Um, that hasn't returned to, to this part of the world yet. So the notion of the high net worth traveler going to China for 10 days and seeing all the sights, passing through Hong Kong, staying in suites, flying in the front of the bus with the family. that's not happening in this part of the world at the moment. So we are expecting that to change. but, the segment that I think is a really interesting one to look out for is this let's not call it the grey economy or the grey traveller, but, but I think wealthy middle class families, the family travel pattern where you've got this retired, wealthy, patriarch or matriarch of a family that is [00:36:00] taking the family to a place where they can experience something together as a family, I think there's going to be a lot of wealth if it hasn't started to happen already. There's a lot of wealth going to be. coming into, into the industry, I think, as, as patriarchs become, they want to enjoy their retirement, they want to enjoy with their families. I think families, for one reason or another, general statement, but we're seeing that families are, you know, children as continuing to live with parents for longer, the reasons you know well. and And that. that I think means that the family units will also travel together. And those affordable, those wealthy families, um, that have high disposable net worth will go to, and the leisure segment will benefit. it's always been there, Adam. I think, you know, there's been camping holidays and there's been the cruises and there's been these things that families do together. you know, skiing holidays and so on. But I think that when you go and you want to stay in a luxury hotel or a luxury villa, [00:37:00] luxury retreat, luxury safari experience, I'm talking at the premium end. Yeah, I think that that is where we will see family, the wealthy family travel, leisure travel segment, I think is the one that we'll see a lot of activity in in the next five years. Michael Cohen: so what you're really also talking about is luxury experiential family travel. It's for the experience. Dean Winter: Yep. Michael Cohen: They're not going for a wedding or maybe they are, but they're not, they're going to the, the Patriarch, Matriarch, whatever they're saying, you know, we're going to transition the wealth in general, folks, but we want to enjoy some of this transitional or experiential collectively make memories. Dean Winter: Correct. Michael Cohen: By the way, good luck to the 25 year old, if they'll ever, even if they inherit, if they'll ever get to a point, it's real, it's true, of, of, ascertaining or acquiring that opportunity. In their thirties or forties, right? So there may be another. 30 years until they have the good opportunity or chance to reach the level that they could do it themselves. Right. So [00:38:00] I think that's really interesting. Um, even though I know you, we know obviously that you have hotels in Miami and that you're expanding on internationally, um, to our global listeners and viewers and obviously people in the industry, uh, you know, there is a reality of, you have a Chinese customer base, there's a geopolitical reality there. I'm not looking to get in any touchy subjects That's going to shut down your internet or anything like that The Chinese luxury traveler and the challenges economically in China, I'm sure. that's part of the, part of what, of the metadata you just were talking about I think, is that fair? and that cycle, when it, we've seen it, you've seen it very well, when it cycles the other way, it's massive. and I have to assume that there's planning and strategy based upon the return in some level of that kind of massive mainland Chinese, upper middle class and wealthy, enjoying the, you know, the spoils of travel, if you know what I'm getting at. Dean Winter: Yes, And I think, you know, we've got some, some, some [00:39:00] references for that. Of course, during COVID, China, as you would know, was, locked out and, people didn't leave and, and, and, and so on. So, There was still a lot of, the domestic consumption, the domestic economy was booming and people were making a lot of money and so on. So the wealthy classes couldn't leave the country for that luxury experience. So they looked for interesting experiences and hotels in the Chinese mainland. Perhaps not the kind of, mainstream luxury experience like staying at a Ritz Carlton in Shanghai or so they chose hotels like ours, like the Tempo House in Chengdu, Sichuan province has always been a favorite leisure destination for, for the mainland market. And, um, so our hotel during COVID, I mean, 2023, as we were still kind of coming out of COVID, 2022, 23 were the best years that the hotel had ever had. And it was. Fueled by this wealthy domestic traveler. We're now feeling that in 24 because that, that [00:40:00] guest is now going overseas again, because they can, and they're going to Paris and they're going to LA and they're going to, you know, elsewhere in Southeast Asia, Bali and Thailand and so on. So, so we, we're seeing a bit of a gap in that premium market. I think where, where we're looking to the future, I mean, our next hotel is going to be in Shenzhen, so It's it's just across the border from here and we are mindful of the fact that, that Shenzhen has, obviously it's a tech hub, it's a commercial hub and, and so on, but, there is, there's a lot of people that want to you know, want to spend time there, there is this other attractions and so on and of course once the greater bay area becomes mature and you've got Zhuhai and Macau and Guangzhou and Shenzhen and Hong Kong in the same kind of connectivity all within you know a couple of hours of each other that that zone will will become extremely commercially active and and I think very affluent so we are planning our hotel in Shenzhen which will open in mid 27 [00:41:00] with that in mind, to position ourselves as being at the very, very top of the Shenzhen hotel market when it opens for that, reason. And we've got some service apartment units in that, in that. hotel. We've we've got a decent size spa. We've got a decent size, you know, banquet and Chinese restaurant, as well as a stunning, you know, rooftop facility. So restaurant facility. So, I think, going to be, Preferred by this affluent Chinese mainland traveler that might be coming with family. so that, that is, uh, absolutely to your question is, is, is what we're planning for in certain locations. Yeah. Not in every location, but certainly locations like that I think Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, I think you you mentioned all the cities on the, on the Pearl River Delta, and I think the latest population estimate puts it at. around 125 million people. I wanna say it's just a crazy amount, but, Um, Dean Winter: Um, Adam Mogelonsky: circling back to this idea of multi generational travel, and I'm wondering if you could [00:42:00] speak to specific design features and operational adjustments, either for the House Collective, for East Hotels, or ones that you are considering or like, just where do you see the hotel industry pivoting to meet this demand, particularly in the luxury sector? Dean Winter: well, maybe I should preface this, Adam, by saying I don't, I don't, I don't think it's rocket science, right? I think it's, you've just got to build in certain features that, like, for example, having a beautiful sofa in the living room that's easily convertible into a bed. Adam Mogelonsky: Okay. Dean Winter: Right, so you don't have these horrible roll away machines that come down the corridor and trash the walls and, you know, but it's an easily convertible, you know, sleeping arrangement. And that's something that we've started to do a lot. in the larger rooms, we would, you know, consider putting in, some form of, uh, If there is an area to do either a sort of sink, [00:43:00] kitchenette type of setup, or even in some cases, a kind of laundry facility, where if people, if we want to attract the long stay, people might, as a family, they might want to, they might want to, to use that, but definitely more kind of sinks, microwaves, and induction tops, those, those kinds of things. And then obviously the related extraction. And the new requirements that come with that Michael Cohen: Sure. Dean Winter: can sometimes be a deal breaker, but, that's the intent. you know, being able to, to unpack everything easily and still have a space to store your suitcase. So, so making Sure. that, that we're clever with the use of little nooks in the room that can be used for storing a closed suitcase, for example. and as much as possible, you know, always providing a bath as well as a shower. Generous size shower, double sinks in the vanity, and, plenty of storage space, I think and, you know, and also being able to compartmentalize the bedroom area better from the, from the [00:44:00] living areas and having separate TVs. In some cases, we've also built in little study areas where the door can be closed if you want to do a call like this, or you want to, you want to, you know, watch something privately away from the children. that's also, uh, something that we're trying to, we're trying to do. we are in the part of the world, particularly in Hong Kong, and in Japan where real estate comes at a premium. So, we can't always do that, that list of nice to haves, but certainly when it comes to designing service departments, we try to accommodate, try to accommodate those things. Michael Cohen: it's interesting because what I'm hearing is, I don't hear this very often from a luxury hotelier, is I'm hearing flexibility, I'm hearing utility and luxury in all in this kind of melange, which, I mean, Dean, that's not the usual conversation. I mean, I don't think that's like abnormal conversation, but that's fascinating because That never has historically, of course it had to be functional and it, but it was design and it was about experience and it was about [00:45:00] luxury. it wasn't really about utility. I don't remember people. telling me when we were, when I was involved building Ritz Carlton hotels that, you know, it's the how, where, where are there, where are the nooks? I never heard someone say where are the nooks? You know, so that's interesting. Dean Winter: Interesting. Thank you. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, we've had a great conversation. it's 52 minute mark here and I don't want to take up any more of your time because I imagine you're off to meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting, uh, running a multinational company. So Dean, I'm wondering if you had any closing thoughts for us to leave us on a, on a very, very memorable, experiential note about the House Collective, uh, House Not Hotels, and also the East hotel brand. Dean Winter: Yeah, I think, certainly we're very, very excited as Michelle's no doubt told you and we, when we met before, you know, about, about this, you know, repositioning of the East brand and, you know, for, the alternative luxury traveler and, and all that comes with that and we're starting to get, you know, some [00:46:00] really nice coverage about it. Thank you for your note as well on that and I think it's starting to resonate. We're seeing that it's resonating, even developers are now starting to sort of, you know, embrace some of those, some of those, Um, and I think, you know, as we touched on when we met before, this sort of underlying narrative about sustainability, but not, you know, without greenwashing, right? it's part of our, our tapestry, if you like. And, and I think that's also, you know, important. Something that developers, guests, and also employees are really liking a lot. And then, Yes, for Houses Not Hotels, which is a descriptor that we love still. Next hotel we're consumed. In fact, right after this, I'm going to another design meeting. We're consumed by design meetings on, on the Shenzhen property, on the Tokyo property. We've also announced, I think since we saw each other last, a house hotel, house collective hotel in Xi'an in central China, which is part of Aswai Properties. Retail development is [00:47:00] going to be absolutely amazing. Um, with next to it, UNESCO heritage, Pagoda. Xi'an is an incredible city, but we were talking earlier about being patient and I mean, you just need to put a spade in the ground in Xi'an and work stops, right? You'd find a 2, 000 year old relic or something. So there's all kinds of, uh, of issues with, construction, but so, so the Haas Collective, development pipeline, whilst modest, is really, really exciting. As I said, we're working on these prospects for other properties elsewhere in the region, which hopefully we can announce in the next, you know, four to six months. So the outlook is, is, uh, is really, really positive. We'll get through these slightly tepid trading, trading environments that we're in at the moment with the exception of Miami, which is doing very, very well. and thank you. Thank You both for your questions and for meeting me this morning. Adam Mogelonsky: Thank you for the full hour. That was incredible. really great to learn, uh, coming over here from, myself in Toronto and Michael, uh, close by as [00:48:00] well to really understand what's happening on the ground in Hong Kong. And also, of course, yes, the Miami property. I was just there last week from the recording and it is a hotbed of activity. It is the literal epicenter of the city. Dean Winter: really has brickled, it's really morphed into something very special.