Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 328 - Paging Mr. Clay Bertrand

Transcript

JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 328 - Paging Mr. Clay Bertrand · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know what he's up to.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's picking me like chickens, shocking me like corns, throwing
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: me like an.
• 0:08
  Speaker 3: Ice when the back of them make your asshole.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: God, you ain't never had that, you little bristle, I
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: sudly dick off the grist onom make your asshole whistle
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: to any different things.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: It's dangerous is when the universe kicked you and you
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: put on the magic glasses.
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: There's rules that go in. You can never take them home.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: You never see things that they're supposed to be.
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: You see things as there are. They could never force nobody.
• 0:47
  Speaker 5: Yes, human, Jo show me, I say, fellow, show.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: Kille and here we go.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: That's right, Joe, And welcome to the Poncha Train Hotel
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: Page and mister Clay bertrand mister Clay bertrand where are you?
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: What's up? Everybody? Welcome to episode number three hundred and
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: twenty eight of the Lone Cooming Podcast. I am Big
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: Bad Bob the Triple B otherwise known as Rob Clark.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Along with me as always is h mister Scars over there, Yes,
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: the Italian mister best Joe Borelli, what is up?
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: How are you? Sir?
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: I'm uh glad it's Friday. That's just about all I
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: can say. Dude.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, another long week?
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Huh oh my god. Yeah yeah, I must have put
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: in like seventy some hours this week.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: Bro, Really are killing a brother because you're short handed.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: I am two people are one?
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: You're looking at him? The three of us, me, myself
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: and I.
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: Well, I guess there's no one to the good news
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: is there's no one to spell blue ink on you.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: This is true, and if I do, I can only
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: blame myself.
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: Yes, look at the positives.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: Got to look at the positives. All right, Let's say
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: hi to the people. Joe, welcome in.
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: Let's do it. Let me scroll up here. We've got
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: a lot of people here. Trey of course. How are you,
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: Sally Ray, Hi, Sally, Paul Cummings, How are you, Sir
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: Scott Edwards?
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: Scott, Hello, Scott.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: Bungled Nice to see you here. Zendar sixty one, how
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: are you good?
• 3:18
  Speaker 6: Evening?
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: Tiny dancer of course, Tiny dancer. Tony Danzer Yeah, also
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: known as deep State Tiny South to West South of
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: will Yeah, slacker Dan, the Internet slacker. How are you,
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: cat Daddy? Steve?
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: What's up Steve?
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: Mister Anthony thrip claim, what's up Anthony, mister Mike, how
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: are you, sir? And uh, we gave him, we gave
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: him credit. But he is our newest on the members
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: only show. He is our new newest covert operator and
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: he had a great time on Wednesday night where we
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: went two hours yapping like six barbers.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, welcome to the club, Mike, Yeah, happy to have you, sir.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: We also had a new spook Joe. What was his name? Uh,
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: David s David s Yes, Yes, spooked it up, Thank
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: you David. And Paula upgraded. Thank you, Paula. Yes, one
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: of the few mint covert operators.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: Superspies, Superspies, yes, one of yes on the Mount rushmore
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: of Superspies with Jack of course and Trey Yes. Uh
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: PSB honesty Hello.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Paul Hatty Hatty Hattie.
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: Tiny dancer carlos Kirova. Yes, we will be getting into.
• 5:00
  Speaker 6: Kind of.
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: David artist, Thank you, sir, mister Claude and aunt you.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: Deane says, how do you hope you got the lone stars?
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: Ready there, let's get it all? Uh, Ted Lumley, how's
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: it going, sir? Canada in the house? Okay? Yeah, and
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: uh and Jack is here. Good glad you're not working
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: late tonight. So nice, and I'm sure more will uh
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: kind of filter in as we.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: Go, trickle in as the night persists.
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: Yes, trickle for certain.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: All right, So I'm gonna start things off here, Joe
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: and Uh, I want to thank Jeff over it City
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Hot Sauce for coming on the show last Friday night.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's so cool to have a sponsor here
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: and for everybody to be able to see him and
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: check him out. And I really didn't give him enough
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: praise when he was on here because he is a
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: one man show, folks. He grows all the peppers himself,
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: he makes all the sauce, he bottles it all himself,
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: he makes the labels, he ships. I mean, he's the man.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: So we can't thank Jeff enough for sponsoring the show.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: And you know he is a channel member as well
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: and an all around great guy with a beautiful family.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: So we thank you so much for being here and
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: still City Hot Sauce for sponsoring the show. And if
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: you haven't yet look head over there. Use the code
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: Gunman all caps. It'll save you twenty percent on check
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: out grave yourself some Hot sauce and let him know
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: that your boys over here at the lone Gunman sent you. Okay, Yes,
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: and that right, Joseph.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: Yes, he will know from the code, but you have
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: to use it. It will get you twenty percent.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: Of Yeah, I mean if you don't, well that's wrong. Yeah,
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: all right. So let's start off with the A Karroga. Okay, yeah, Kiroga.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: I got a document here, Joe, from the f and
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: the B and the I. Okay, m h. And it's
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: from November twenty third, nineteen sixty three. Now, this is
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: the day after the assassination of course, Okay. An unidentified
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: individual contacted the l Paso office of the FBI, that
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: would be l Paso, Texas, and reported that a US
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: Army enlisted man with the last name of Kroga not
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: further identified, reportedly made a statement on the Mexican side
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: of the border at about five thirty pm on November
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: twenty second, nineteen and sixty three, to the effect of
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Kiroga had been in Dallas during the previous evening and
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: knew that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy was
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: to take place. This statement was reportedly made in the
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: presence of a large group of people waiting to return
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: to the US. One individual who is presently serving with
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: the Armed Services has been identified as PFC Anthony Michael
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: kier Roga, who has been stationed at Fort Bragg, North Kagailaki.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: That's Carolina for you northern folks in foreigner. That's interesting, right.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So he had a problem getting or he was
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: in Mexico coming back on the evening of November twenty second.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: It's it's a report that somebody in the US Army
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: named Kiroga made a statement on the Mexican side of
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: the border at five point thirty pm on November twenty second,
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: to the effect Kiroga had been in Dallas during the
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: previous evening and knew that the assassination of President Kennedy
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: was to take place. This statement was reportedly made in
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: the presence of a large group of people in the
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: army waiting to return to the US.
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: Right, so they're referring to Anthony Michael not Carlos.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: Correct, got it? And so they deduced the FBI that
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: is that one individual who's presently serving with the Armed
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: Services has been identified as pm see Anthony Michael Carroga,
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: who is stationed at Fort Bragg, North Caro, North Carolina. Okay,
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: so there can't be that many corogas in the United
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: States Army, you know what I'm saying. So I probably
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: wasn't too hard to find out who this dude was.
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: But the plot dickens, Joe dickens like a good gravy.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: December the first, nineteen and sixty three, another FBI report
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: A mister Theodore Georgiette Postal inspector at El Paso or no,
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I read that wrong. Mister Theodore is Georgiette,
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: Patrol Inspector, United States Border Patrol L Passo advised as follows,
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: at about five point thirty on the day of the
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: assassination of the President of the United States, John F. Kennedy,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: while the United States Mexican border was closed between El
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: Paso and Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico. He was advised by a
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: Mexican immigration officer named Armando Meremantes Perez that a Mexican
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: customs officer at the Cordova Island crossing point had shortly
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: before overheard a man dressed in a uniform of the
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: US Army state in the Spanish language that he had
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: been in Dallas the night before the assassination, and at
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: that time he knew that the assassination was going to
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: take place. So we have now identified the person making
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: this claim. This is a Theodore Georgietti, a patrol inspector
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: with the United States Border Patrol at al Paso, Okay,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: Georgetti was pointed at. Georgietti was pointed out the soldier
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: in question by mere Montez, and then Georgietti, in an
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: unobtrusive manner, approached the soldier and determined that the name
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: attached to his uniform red KIROGA q u I rga,
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: which is exactly how Carlos you know, spells his name right.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: This soldier was detained at the border along with many
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: other persons, for a period of about three hours prior
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: to being allowed to return to the United States. Georgetti
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: described the soldier as follows sex, male, height five ten
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: build slim hair, black, complexion, olive but not too dark, characteristics,
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: Latin features, dress, enlisted man's uniform of the United States Army,
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: and I said this is a report based on an
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: interview with mister Georgietti on eleven, twenty three, sixty three
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: but we're not done yet. We're not done yet, So
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: back to this mister. Armando metremantees Perez, the Mexican immigration
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: officer at Warris, Chihuahua, Mexico, advised his Fileux Joe. Shortly
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: after four thirty pm al Paso's time, on the night
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He was
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: contacted by a Mexican customs officer name not known at
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: the Mexican immigration station at the Cordova Island crossing between Warres,
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: Mexico and El Paso, Texas, and was advised by this
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: Mexican customs officer that he had just overheard a soldier
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: in the United States Army make the statement that he
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: had been in Dallas, Texas, the night before the assassination
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: and had known that it was going to take place.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: A large group of persons had gathered at the crossing
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: point at that time and were waiting the opening of
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: the border so that they could return to the United States.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: The above mentioned soldier was one of the group of
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: persons waiting to return to the United States. Metremantes was
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: busy with other matters and had no direct contact with
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: this soldier who had to wait at the border for
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: a period of about three hours before the border was
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: reopened and he was allowed to return to the United States.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Mere Montes contacted a representative of the United States Border
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Patrol at the crossing point after having been furnished the
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: above information by the Mexican customs officer, and in turn
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: furnished this information to the border patrolman. Met Ormantes said
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: he would attempt to identify the Mexican customs officer mentioned
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: above and would have this individual immediately contact the FBI
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: and now passer, which he did. That's Georgietti me Or
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: Montes said he he understood the importance of this matter,
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: would make every effort to immediately identify and locate the
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: above mentioned Mexican customs officer. And this is the FBI
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: is at Warrez, Chihuahua, Mexico taking this report. So how funny.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: Is it.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: That we have Carlos Kiroga's brother Anthony at the border
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: waiting to get back into Texas, claiming that he was
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: in Dallas, or maybe they misheard him. Maybe he said
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: he was in Dallas talking about his brother because he
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: said he was speaking Spanish. So either this dude was
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: in Dallas the night before the assassination, or possibly somebody
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: he knew, maybe with the same last name as him,
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: maybe somebody who had contact with Oswald a couple months
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: previous in New Orleans. I don't know. I'm just saying, Joe,
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying, it's an interesting document.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very I'm just trying to get through my head.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: So where was he stationed was was he stationed in
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: Mexico and trying to get back Anthony Michael to the
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: United States, Or was he stationed in the United States,
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: went to Mexico and.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Then I don't know. I don't know. He was in uniform,
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: That's all I know. He was in uniform, and he
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: was with a group of people waiting to get back
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: into the United.
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: States, probably other soldiers. You would think, you.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: Would think, but I wouldn't think the US Army personnel
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: would have to wait in line at the border.
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying, unless it was closed. And
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: that's the first ever heard that the southern border was
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: closed after after the assassination, it might have been yeah,
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: very interesting, Yeah, crazy, But carlos Kiroga definitely had contact
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: with Oswalt. He was the guy bring air sent uh,
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: to kind of see where Oswalt's loyalties lay. And I
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: think he brought them the pamphlets.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: Well, he sent him to try to infiltrate the fair
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: Play for Cuba committee.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: Right, but I'm saying, yeah, I think he printed out
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: the pamphlets for for Oswalt.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you brought you some flyers. Yeah,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: can you in your club?
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: Pencil thin mustaches, tiny pencil thin mustaches and a very
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: sharp jaw line. M hm.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: Hm about Rogers here? Hey, Roger, Rogers here, Yes, sir Roger.
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: How are you? Lee?
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: Harold alls Wald is in the house.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: Mm hm m m m hm. No, kiddie. Oh hi, k.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: Lee is in the house. What's up, Lee? Ralph? He'll
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: comes to play?
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: Hey, Lee? How are you nice? Nice to see you.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: Do you want me to go?
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Rob?
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: You're up, Joe. That's how I say something, then you
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: say something, all right.
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: So admittedly we were a little late today and trying
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: to figure out a topic. You know, we've we've both
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: had some busy weeks. But uh, I was you know,
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: I'm continuing my reading of the Oswalt puzzle, which, by
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: the way, if you haven't gotten this yet, by Larry
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: Hancock and David Boylan. You definitely definitely should get on it.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: And I actually wanted to read. Bill Simpitch wrote a
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: little review on the thread on the ed Forum that
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: I wanted to read really quickly regarding the Oswalt Puzzle
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: because it's just a it's it's a really good and
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: I think spot on review, so I just wanted to
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: read part of it really quickly. I think Larry and
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: David have the best book on Oswalt out there. The
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: problem was Oswalt. The problem with writing about Oswalt is
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: that the writer gets into many highly contested areas about
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Oswalt's personality and what activities he was involved in. The
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: Oswalt Puzzle is different. Larry and David tackle Oswalt's quirky
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: personality itself, which I only touched on. They offer a
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: detailed biography of the man, which almost no one gets
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: right because they get caught up in the rabbit holes. Intelligent, yes, lazy, Yes,
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: they're talking about Oswalt, not the book. There are many
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: more findings, but those two tell you a lot.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: Asswald.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: And if this book gets the circulation it deserves, it
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: will become the textbook biography on Oswalt. Although what is
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: written from the Oswalt was a Patsy point of view,
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: I think that researchers from every stripe will have a
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: difficult time finding serious and serious errors in the Oswalt puzzle.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: And the only reason why I mentioned that is because
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna be talking for a couple of minutes about
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: George de Moornshield and I have I was recently reading
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: his manuscript that he wrote right before he died rob
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: and it's it's very interesting and it it is in
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: contrast to some of what he said at the Warrant Commission,
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: but he does give some explanations as to why that is.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: And I have a couple snippets of audio that I'm
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: also gonna play in a couple of minutes, but for once,
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: I'm going to read about a page and a half
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: from the Oswalt Puzzle here, So I'm just gonna and
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: then get into some of de Moor and Shield's transcript
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: and see what what George's assessment of Oswald's character was
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: and how that lines up with the assessment Larry and
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: David have come up with. And there's a lot of
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: things that are very consistent So I was just reading
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: about it, and I thought it'd be interesting to touch
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: upon for a few minutes here.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: So noadiens how the Canadians say Oswald? It bugs the
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: shit out of me?
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: No Osweald, do they Oswald?
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: Some do? He's like, really, okay.
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: That's funny. So this little paragraph is titled a friend
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: in dubtless. During the next few months, from October nineteen
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: sixty two to April nineteen sixty three, one of Oswalt's
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: few ongoing personal contacts was with another individual, someone who
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: shared Oswalt's relativeatively liberal socio political views while also being
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: firmly opposed to Soviet style communism, someone that Oswalt himself
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: would come to see as a friend none other than
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: George de Mortenshield. De Moornshield and his wife maintained social
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: contact with the Oswalts for several months over the winter
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: of sixty two into the spring of sixty three, until
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: they moved to Haiti. De Moorinshield's first approach to the
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: Oswaltz was at their Mercedes Street event address in Fort Worth,
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: which he described as being in a slummy industrial area
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: something of a shack. As a native Russian himself. De
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: Moornshield enjoyed Marina's speech, describing it as somewhat of a
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: treat beautiful Russian. He found her to have a good
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: sense of humor, but describe much of their conversation as
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: somewhat trite. On the other hand, leem pre to him
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: as willing to talk about controversial issues and demonstrating the
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: courage of his convictions with furiosity, independent spirit, reminding Moorrenshield
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: of his youth is yours as a student. In turn,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: it seems Oswald has appears to have sense that he
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: could talk openly with De Moorrenshield, even argue with him
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: on subjects Oswald was passionate about, and one nineteen sixty
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: three job application, Oswald listened to Morenshield as his closest friend.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: You're doing there, roll, Apparently I'm housing some Oreo cookies.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Bro h. I respect that I was tongue flipping him
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: in my mouth as you, as I was listening to
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: you to.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: Speak a little foreshadowing, a little foreshadowing, a foreshadowing of
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: the skit later.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: People don't go nowhere. I'm gonna be rare form here
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: a little bit.
• 25:09
  Speaker 7: So.
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: De Morishield was born in Russia who was a baron.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: He was socially well connected. He knew the Bouvier family,
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: including Jackie when she was a girl. Demorrenshield made no
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: secrets of his contact with government, nor his willingness to
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: provide information to the US government. He openly stated that
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: a government man also known as Jay Walton Moore of
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: the Domestic Services Division, had taken him out to lunch
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: and mentioned a young American and his Russian wife were
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: to be returning to Dallas. Of course, we know that
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: Jay Walton Moore asked de Mornshield to befriend and keep
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: an eye on Oswalt, almost one of his first babysitters,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: in the fall of nineteen sixty two, but they developed
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: the friendship. As with many other sources on Oswalt to
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: Warrenshield was interviewed by the Warren Commission, and its questioning
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: was seemingly oriented towards positioning Oswalt in the image with
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: the Commission had chosen to project to Warren. Shield pushed
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: back on these interviews later regarding he had not been
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: able to talk about the positive aspects of Oswalt and
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: basically been managed in his statements by the questions asked
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: of him. So, all right, and then that's all I'm
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: gonna read from the Oswalt puzzle. But we're now going
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: to go to part of his manuscript and then actually,
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: you know what I'm gonna Yeah, I'll do that first.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: So this manuscript, because he was obviously committed suicide and
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: his death is considered suspicious. Yes, allegedly his manuscript was
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: published by the HSCA. So, and he had a very
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: interesting view on Oswald and his personality. But first, in
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: terms of the Warren Commission, he says, our performance at
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: the Warren Commission was very lukewarm and not decisive enough
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: in favor of Lee. I hope Lee will forgive us,
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: and I hope that Miss Marguerite Oswald will also forgive us.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: Lee's innocence or his being just a patsy as our conviction.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: And now we can speak more objectively of the reasons
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: of our conviction. That the younger generation America does not
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: believe in Lee's guilt is a fact. But why would
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: old fogies like herself have such unorthodox opinions? Let us
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: talk of the clever leaking on by the choice lawyers
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: of the war Warrn Committee, which forced us Lee's friends
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: and acquaintances to appear somewhat antagonistic towards him. The general
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: opinion set up in the United States at the time
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: puts pressure on you, warps your judgment and changes your words.
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: So he's saying, the Warrant Commission pressured me to be
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: very critical of Lee. And this is a little This
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: is from Dennis Moore Setz YouTube channel. He has a
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: lot of good stuff. And this is George and Jean
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: talking about their war On Commission testimony.
• 28:39
  Speaker 7: And your testimony for the barternaryport that you defended Lee.
• 28:45
  Speaker 7: Did you also have to feeling like George had that
• 28:49
  Speaker 7: when they questioned you about Oswald, they did so as
• 28:53
  Speaker 7: if they had already made up their minds that he
• 28:56
  Speaker 7: was guilty. Did you fear you had to where to
• 29:00
  Speaker 7: express your opinions as far as to bring also sympathetic
• 29:05
  Speaker 7: angles of his character knowing him.
• 29:09
  Speaker 8: Yes, they were not as strong as they were with
• 29:13
  Speaker 8: my husband, but definitely there was an air that there
• 29:18
  Speaker 8: were no way out, that he supposed to be an assassin,
• 29:24
  Speaker 8: and no matter what, that was the feeling we had,
• 29:28
  Speaker 8: and they practically they were not very happy. But whatever
• 29:33
  Speaker 8: good was ever said about him?
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: How did you notice that?
• 29:37
  Speaker 8: It's just a feeling that was dislike in their faces
• 29:41
  Speaker 8: when something nice was said about him. And frankly, we
• 29:45
  Speaker 8: were very fortunate because we were interrogated much later than
• 29:50
  Speaker 8: the other people after they were interrogated immediately, and they
• 29:54
  Speaker 8: were bewildered, they were frightened. When we faced were intimity,
• 29:58
  Speaker 8: we were completely cool and we were not excited because
• 30:01
  Speaker 8: an excitement people did say and we know lots of
• 30:04
  Speaker 8: our good friend said things that they didn't mean because
• 30:07
  Speaker 8: they were too frightened, they were too excited something. We
• 30:10
  Speaker 8: spoke completely indifferent, just trying to bring facts of whatever
• 30:15
  Speaker 8: we could recall of our relationship.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: So they're obviously saying that they were pressured by the
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: Warm Commission to talk not favorably about Lee, and that's
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: consistent with a lot of people that testified there. And
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: I think George the Warrenshield testified for three days and
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: I think his wife maybe a day and a half.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: I mean, they spent a lot of time question but
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: they also had a unique period of time where they
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: were close with Marina and Lee and were really in
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: a great position to their dynamic and their relationship that's
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: October sixty two to April sixty three. That's right around
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: the Walker shooting, before Legos in New Orleans, before demorin
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: show goes to Haiti. There's not a lot of people
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: that were close to them at that time, and that's
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: what Larry was saying in his book. A lot of
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: people dismissed de Moor and Shield's claims on Lee's personality
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: because he was tasked to watch him, right, yeah, so
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: very allegedly. Well, there's not much on Jay Walton Moore
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: document wise, but when you look at the pattern, there
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: was always someone looking after Lee and Marina, right.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: You are correct, Joe, and we have pointed this out
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: many times, from the time of the assassination went down
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: until years after. You know, you can kind of trace
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: the arc.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. So let me get back
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: to his transcript here his manuscript. I'm sorry. One of
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: the reasons this is de Mornshield writing Miss Marguerite Oswalt.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: We agree with Miss Marguerite Oswalt that her son was
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: probably innocent of the Kennedy assassination, and we insisted on
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: this during the War Committee hearings interviews. Although it was
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: never brought up publicly was the following. Lee actually admired
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: President Kennedy in his own reserved way. One day, we
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: discussed with Lee Kennedy's efforts to bring peace to the
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: world and to end the Cold War. Great great, exclaimed Lee.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: If he succeeds, he will be the greatest president in
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: the history of this country. Kennedy's efforts to alleviate and
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: to end segregation were also admired by Lee, who was
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: sincerely and profoundly committed to a complete interrog integration of
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: blacks and saw it in the future of the United States.
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: So again, it's nothing ideollant. I can't say it ideologistically
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: lines up with Lee's with Lee trying to assassinate Kennedy because.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: We have finally found Joe's liberty lobby.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know that's bad. Lee despised the reactionary groups,
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: the white supremacists, the so called hate groups, and did
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: not hide his feelings. I naturally agreed with him. Marina,
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: on the other hand, was not interested in anything except
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: acquiring possessions. Her materialism envy of other refugees success compared
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: to Lee's idealism, led inevitably to confrontations that makes sense.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: I frequently asked, was Lee a good husband? Now we
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: have seen his unpleasant characteristics, but he often helped Marina
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: in the household work. He gave her all the money
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: he earned. Sometimes he complained that she was too lazy
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: and he had to do the job himself, cleaning dishes
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: and even washing clothes. He was tender to the baby.
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: As far as sex is concerned. We have heard Marina's complaints,
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: but we know that the greatest mystery in the world
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: is what happens between a married couple in their bedroom.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: And yeah, if Marina had any brains, she should have
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: known that a man like Lee, who was not a
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: money maker but barely a wage earner, would never provide
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: her with all the luxuries, all those desirable items that
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: America seemed to possess in such limitless quantities. She picked
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: at him, annoyed him as if she desired a separation,
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: which she finally achieved through us. And Marina stayed with
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: the de morn Shields for a little bit, and when
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: we spoke with Larry, we went. We talked about the
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: pattern of them moving together, moving away, people trying to
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: help her separating them. Same thing as happening in nineteen
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: sixty two. This letter from Marina's ex lover that Lee intercepted.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: Why did she let it? I'm sorry?
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: Who's her ex lover?
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: It's I think it's some guy named Pavel. So all
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: the letters are in the Warren Commission exhibits, all the
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: letters that Marina got. This was a boyfriend from Russia
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: that she was corresponding.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: With Lee living in Morocco.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: He was living in Morocco. Yeah, he might have been.
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: I'm saying I think they met in Russia, but you could.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: I think he moved to Morocco. Yeah, was their own
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: business or something or mm hmm for some reason, I
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: remember Morocco with this dude.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: Okay, so, but George was banging.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: But George here is wondering why is she laying this
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: leaving this letter around for Lee to find. And he's
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: kind of theorizing did she want to end this unsuccessful marriage?
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: Or maybe she wanted to kind of light the fire
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: under him and get him I jealous more active, right, right?
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: I mean some woman do that. What annoyed us also,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: that is George and his wife, was that Marina liked
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: to ridicule Lee. She called she called him a fool
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: a more You're always thinking of politics instead of making money.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: You act like a big shot. Marina had a bad
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: habit of constantly correctingly when he was speaking Russian, and
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: that annoyed him and me. Lee, for a man of
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: his background, had a remarkable talent for Russian, and Marina
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: foolishly tried to blow up his occasional mistakes or ridicule
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: his slight accent. It's difficult to know two languages to perfection,
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: and Lee's English was perfect, refined, rather literary, deprived of
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: any southern accent. He sounded like a very educated American
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: of undetermined background, and we saw that on TV.
• 37:41
  Speaker 9: Rob.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, but to know, yeah, but to know Russian
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: as he did was remarkable, to appreciate serious literature with
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: something out of the ordinary. He had the affinity to
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: the Russian ways of life, customs, music, and food. So
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: this all very consistent with with what we've kind of
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: been talking about all year with Oswald in his character, right, Rob.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, But you know what's interesting, sure is that, now
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: that I think of it, when we look back on
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: his library books that he checked out, you would think
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: there would at least be some Russian books, you know
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: what I mean. I think there was only.
• 38:34
  Speaker 9: One that could possibly be construed as kind of sort
• 38:39
  Speaker 9: of you know what I'm saying, But it was weirdly
• 38:43
  Speaker 9: devoid of any books about Marxism, Communism, Russia anything.
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: Would those have been available in New Orleans library? And
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: then nineteen sixty three those type of books.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: Well like Russian literature, you know that had been translated
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: over told boy and whoever the hell else? I don't know.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, there's only one or two. I think
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: you're right. And he seems to say that that was
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: his favorite reading. So maybe he had his own his
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: own copies of the books, and of course we know
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: he he got a lot of other Russian literature. Of
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: course that's not what you're referring to, but that's a
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: good point.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, interesting, very very interesting.
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: Very so h had Lee. Actually you know what I'm
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: going to I have an audio clip next. Sorry any
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: uh good comments there?
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: I've been throwing them up as I see him.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Oh nice, I've been reading, So.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: Peter had a good one. Ex lover is Dago Marina
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: wishes yeah to that old girl for Luke.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, being now in the close intimacy with
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: the couple, we became aware of the tragic development in
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: the relationship. Lie seemed to be fond of Marina, but
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: he really cherished mostly the baby. Maybe he did not
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: show Marina his affections sufficiently to me. He never spoke
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: against her, nor did he critics not did he criticize her,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: but he did not either express any deep feeling for her.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Even in his memoirs he spoke very little of his wife,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: of his life. Marina, on the other hand, criticized and
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: annoyedly openly. He's a puny, he would say. He's so small.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: He does not drink, He only works. His only interest
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: is in a baby. Where her word, and he said
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: that behind his back. Never did we hear from her
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: that she really loved Lee. But there was, however, an
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: element of deep attachment Juwie did not see at the time.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: All right, so let's go back to his manuscripts. Have
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: two more pages Here, George continues to write, had Lee
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: lived most of his life in a militarian country, he
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: would have landed in a concentration camp for his outspoken opinions,
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: for his loose tongue, Or should be said of Lee's
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: interest in the world affairs, I could hear his clear
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: speaking voice. Since here simple without affection its attractive modulation. Why,
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: with passing time we became more and more convicted that
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: the whole story of Lee Oswald has not been told.
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: We're just adding another chapter to it. It should be useful,
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: as I had known him well better than anyone else
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: according to the Warren Report, better than his mother and wife,
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: according to the lengths of our depositions. How the oppressive
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: weight influenced my testimony can be seen so clearly by
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: me now looking at it after several years, as if
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: it were somebody else's deposition, deprived of a warm feeling
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: for Lee, full of my own stupid jokes which make
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: me sad now I was not expressing myself. Recall, I
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: didn't defend Lee vigorously and passionate enough, which I am
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: sure he would have done to defend me in a
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: similar situation. I was cleverly by the Warren Commission Committee
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: Council Albert Jenner into saying some things I not really
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: want to say, to admit certain defaults into Lee which
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: I weren't sure were his. In other words, I would
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: consider myself a coward and a slob who did not
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: stand up to defend proudly a dead friend whatever odds
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: were against him. Wow feeling guilty huh, just a little bit.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: So.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: The amusing and attractive side of Lee's personality was like
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: he liked to play with his own life. He was
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: an actor in real life, a very curious individual. And
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: we know this rob because of his slitting of wrists
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: in the Russian in Moscow to stay in the country
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: and to the alleged pulling out a gun in the
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: Russian embassy. That's playing with your own life for sure there, Yeah,
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: de Morrinshield continues. On the other hand, I could very
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: easily visualize Lee joining a procastro group. In my humble opinion,
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: as indicated by some events and conversations in this book,
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: the Kennedy family did not want to pursue the matter
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: of finding the real unquestionable assassin, nor a conspiracy, as
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: they could have done it with their own immense private resources.
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: If somebody would kill my son or brother, I would
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: certainly want to be sure who did it. But possibly
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: the personality of Lee Harvey Oswald suited perfectly the political
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: purposes of the Kennedy family. Now That's really interesting, Rob,
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: because as we touched on members Only, you have Caroline
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: Kennedy and her son Jack Sloshburg being against declassification against
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: R K Junior and de Morrischield is kind of writing
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: that this was kind of the Kennedy family mindset back
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: in sixty seven when he was writing this, and ironically
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: it's kind of still holds true today.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they didn't want it then, some of them don't
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: want it now.
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy. So I have one more minute of
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: George Morrishfield and then I'm going to hand it back
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: to you or to us for our skit upcoming.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Yay.
• 45:35
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: A conversation with Lee, I found out that Lee was
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: a straightforward and outspoken agnostic, probably early childhood. He was
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: an agnostic of the type of Jefferson and Franklin. And
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: for us it was fine. It created a pleasant understanding
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: between us, didn't you call him?
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: At one point with me he was humble. Yeah, he
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: blossomed when interest was shown in him.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Oh definitely, this was the point about him. Yeah that whenever,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: for instance, discussing of organized religion, and we agreed on
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: on that point, and it was created a pleasant relationship
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: understanding between us. Uh. Marino, on the other hand, was
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: brought up in Solvitrussia.
• 46:51
  Speaker 7: And the church yard would like to say something, all right,
• 46:58
  Speaker 7: I just.
• 46:58
  Speaker 11: Want to mention a lee that the reason that he
• 47:03
  Speaker 11: probably liked George was because George was the only one
• 47:09
  Speaker 11: and I of course with him, didn't scorn him and
• 47:13
  Speaker 11: accepted him as a human being on an equal basis,
• 47:18
  Speaker 11: in spite that so many people that did help them,
• 47:21
  Speaker 11: actually they.
• 47:22
  Speaker 8: Were not doing it for him. They were doing it
• 47:24
  Speaker 8: for his wife and the child, and they sort of
• 47:28
  Speaker 8: left him out of the whole thing. That was his
• 47:32
  Speaker 8: resentment towards at the people. And sometimes he was actually
• 47:36
  Speaker 8: rude with them because finally when they realized that they
• 47:39
  Speaker 8: cannot have only Marina and a baby and they actually
• 47:41
  Speaker 8: have to invite him also for dinner for something, he
• 47:46
  Speaker 8: was straightforward and just refused to accept the invitations, and
• 47:51
  Speaker 8: that inturiated Mari Marina of course, because it looked as
• 47:54
  Speaker 8: people so nice, they give us so many things, and
• 47:58
  Speaker 8: that idiot not even polite to them and refuse the
• 48:01
  Speaker 8: invitation and want don't want to be courteous with them.
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's uh, that's Gene and George kind of
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: talking about uh why Lee kind of was able to
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: get a relationship with George Morrenshield considering that they were
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: of complete different social levels. George of Marshield was a
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: social light. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they seemed Lee seemed
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: to have opened up about him. So Larry's point is,
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: you can't just discount what George and and his wife
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: Jean says about him here, and they're pretty emphatic and
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: they're pretty consistent. This is a four hour interview. I've
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: read the whole manuscript and it lines up a lot
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: of what we've learned a lot from Lee and his personality.
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: So I thought that was an interesting little uh uh
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: as I'm kind of making my way through the book,
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: interesting little thing to touch on, because he's definitely one
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: of the best sources to Oswalt's character, personality and the
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: relationship and Marina's personality as well. So you can't discount
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: it just because Jay Walt Moore told told George to
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: keep an eye on them.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: So yes, yes, see, Colleen popped in. Hi. Colleen, Hey, Colleen,
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: welcome in, Welcome in. You're just in time, all right, Joe.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Let me set this up a little bit for everybody.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: This is an interview transcribed the Office the District Attorney
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: of New Orleans, James Garrison, regarding Clay Shaw and Jack Ruby.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: This was a tape recording of an interview made on
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: July the second I'm sorry, July twelfth, nineteen and sixty seven,
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: at exactly Joe time to smoke, four to twenty pm.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: Interview was conducted by Bill Boxley of the District Attorney's
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: Office of New Orleans and by William Martin of the
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: DA's Office of New Orleans. Another Martin. We didn't highlight
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: because he wasn't a JA. It was William H.
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: But we were aware.
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: We were aware. This interview was conducted at the win
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: State Farm, Texas Department of Corrections. This interview is conducted
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: with a mister William A. Morris, an inmate at the
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: said institution. Joe, so we all right, I don't have
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: the I don't have the time travel music handy, but
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: I wish I did. So we're gonna travel back in
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: time to nineteen sixty seven. We're sitting in a really
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: shabby jail interview room with William Morris and Bill Boxley
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: and William Martin.
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: Well, Rob before we start. So this was kind of
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: the who Willie O'Keeffe was the uh.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: Well, William Chief was an amalgamation of characters. There was
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: no Willie O'Keeffe per se, but he was a combination
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: of various people, including this one.
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: Sure h uh for sars uh, Perry Russeo and someone
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: else I believe.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this guy for sure is part of it.
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but Kevin Bacon played him in the movie. Yeah,
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: to give people a visual.
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: And this guy's name he went by Billy so Billy Morris.
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: Okay, well let's see what Let me ask what you
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: go by first?
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: Okay, all right, when we washed down this bit of oreo.
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: Is that an unsweetened ice tea coax zero coach zero
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: stop it?
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: Oh boy.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: The sister, the sister's kitchen. What's up? Peach? Sisters? Welcome,
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: welcome in.
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she cannot wait for the skip.
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: I highlighted it, Sally, we were winging it.
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: We have not rehearsed. This is the time. This is
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: the first performance, yeah of said play.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah mm hmm. There will probably be some misspeaks on
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: my part, but all right, I will be Boxley right, yes,
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: and Martin and Martin Boxley and Martin I like it.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, William Boxley and William Martin are interviewing William Morris.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: A whole lot of Williams going on here. Oh wow,
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: m hmm.
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: Maybe that's what why they asked this first question. What
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: would what would what we would like to know about first?
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: If we could? Bill? Are you called Bill or Billy?
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: Billy? All right?
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: This incident about your introduction to clay Shaw. Did you
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: meet Clay Shaw in New Orleans?
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: What a man introduced to me is Clay Bertrand.
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: You met, uh, Clay Bertrand.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: I met a Clay Bertrand. The name clay Shaw was
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: never mentioned or used to me.
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: All right, can you tell me about Can you tell
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: me the circumstances of meeting mister Bertrand?
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: I certainly can. Mister Boxley, Uh, I met him at
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: the Masquerade Bar. I was taken there by Gene Davis.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: Maybe you've heard of him for the express reason to
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: meet him, that is Clay Bertrand, sir, all right, what
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: was us? It was sometime in June of fifty eight,
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: that's fifty eight.
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: June of fifty eight, And what was the occasion of
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: the Masquerade ball the Masquerade Bar? It was a bar bar.
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: I beg your I beg your pardon on St.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: Louis Street. It's a homosexual hangout. You know what I'm saying. Okay,
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: it's now when I left, called the Cove, it changed
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: its name.
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: The Cove CV e uh huh.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: It's on Saint Louis Street between Bourbon and Dove Fame.
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: Now, why was Gene Davis interested in introducing YouTube bertrand?
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: Well, for sexual purposes. Of course.
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: It was for sexual purposes.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: That's all right, big boy.
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: There wasn't anything else suggested. Yeah, okay. Now then what
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: age were you at that time?
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: I just turned eighteen.
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: You were eighteen? And where did you live in New
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: Orleans at that time?
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: Oh? I was living down on Dauphine Street, right across
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: the street from the Dauphine Restaurant, a little old hole
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: in the wall restaurant. There's a little apartment house there.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: I was living with a guy. His name was Art,
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: you know, like you hang on the wall Art Art.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: He worked for Gene Davis at the court of two sisters,
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: Gene Davis at that time. I read in the paper
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: about it, naturally, but they say he wanda his bar.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: But at this time, he just worked for the Court
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: of Two Sisters. He didn't know nothing. He didn't even
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: have a car there.
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: What was he doing at the Court of Two Sisters?
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: Some kind of matre d or something. I don't know.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: He wasn't just in every day bimmy. You know. He
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: offered to get me a job there, and I'm sorry
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: I didn't go to work.
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: But to be honest with you, okay, and he introduced
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: you to Clay Bertrand. Now have you identified in your
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: own mind Clay Bertrand from pictures that you've seen in
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: the paper or did you ever?
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: I never seen the picture in the paper, to be
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: honest with you, but I seen him on TV and
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: I thought maybe, oh, looks like well somebody i'd be well,
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: I thought it'd be somebody I tricked with when I
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: was in New Orleans, you know what I'm saying.
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: And then I kept thinking, when did you see him
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: on TV?
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: Oh, it's been a long time ago to about three
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: or four.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: Months in what connection?
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: Well, just something about Jim Garrison stuff. They had him
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: coming out of the He didn't say nothing. He was
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: just going in something, you.
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: Know, in a building or.
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, in the building you see and I just seen him.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: I just seen him.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Then.
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: What you say, then, is that you saw on television
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: several months ago photographs of a man going in or
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: out of the court building. And this was the man
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: you knew as Clay Bertrand.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: Well it looked a lot like him. I'll say that
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: seeing a man on television and seeing him in real
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: sight might make a difference. Yeah, you understand what I mean,
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: mister Boxley.
• 59:11
  Speaker 4: Sure sure, sure was he on television as Clay Shaw?
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: Was a reference made to him on television as Clay Shaw?
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: Yes, So this man was identified in television at that
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: time as Clay Shaw.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: As Clay motherfucking Shaw.
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: Yes, I see you.
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: They said he was a New Orleans businessman or something.
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: He told me he worked for General Electure. I remember that,
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: all right?
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: So you met him at this masquerade bar.
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, he could flick my light switch all night long.
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying.
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: Where did you go from there?
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: We went back to Gene Davis's apartment, of course.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: Okay, was this at night or in the daytime?
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: Oh? This was at night. That's when we prowl.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: I see, do you remember where Jeene Davis's apartment was?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: I remember where it was, but not the exact address. Now,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: it was two or three doors down from the Court
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: of the Two Sisters, on the even side of Bourbon.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: Of course six ten or six twelve Bourbon. It could
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: have been six or eight or six fourteen. You understand
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: what I mean, the even side, Joe, Yes, Neil.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. And did you go up there with Clay bertrand.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: Clay Bertrand yes, yes, we went in a little efficiency.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: It was a little efficiency apartment. I had been there
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: before with Gene Davis. Of course, what I'm saying.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: All right, now, did you ever see him after that?
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: I seen him? Yes, I saw him two more times
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: when we went to Jean's apartment. I saw him on
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: mister Boone's boat, and then he entered my apartment one
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: night by the back door. I mean, by mistake. I'm sorry,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: but that would take just a little explaining to explain that.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: All right, you saw him twice more at Davis's apartment.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: Now, Sir, at the masquerade, we went to Davis's apartment.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: We always met at the masquerade, have a drink. I
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: don't even think he drank, but I don't remember. But
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: then we went to Jean's Jean Davis's little apartment. You
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: think he did not drink I can't remember whether he
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: drank beer or what.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: I know?
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: Jeene Davis was a lush and I mean a lush.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: He drank some you know, you know what I mean? Yep?
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: All right? Can you describe physically to me the man
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: you knew as Clay Bertrand how tall was he? You're
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: what six ' one? How tall are you?
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: Well? He was not quite as tall as me.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: Wait, wait, wait just a minute. How tall are you?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: I'm about six six and a half. I'm sorry, are
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: you talking about my height on my penis size? Though? Mean? Bill?
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, six feet and a half. That's wait a minutes,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: all right? And then how tall was he in relation
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: to you?
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: He was let's see, well he actually was about my
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: size only he was you know, he wasn't skinny? All right?
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: How did he wear his hair? How is it? How
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: is it cut?
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm? Looked like you know, sir?
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: Mhm me Boxley, me Joe or me Martin? M hm?
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: Well now how is mine cut?
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: I mean.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 10: To be uh m hm uh oh, I mean to
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 10: be of average value?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: Uh on the tape we have we have to have
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: that sorry, miss.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: That's all right, that's all right, mister box Like. We
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: will get past that. Uh. I think what you're trying
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: to ask me is what kind of haircut does motherfucker had? Uh?
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: It was a bushy crew cut?
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: Bushy, a bushy crew cut? All right? What color hair
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: did he have?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: Grayish brown? Grayish reddish brown. And yes, the carpet did
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: match the drapes if you were wondering, I was.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: About three hours.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: You say you met him for sexual purposes? Did he
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: pay you for this?
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: Twenty dollars?
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: He paid you twenty dollars.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: Each time, mister Boxley, no pre arranged agreement or nothing.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: He just Jeane told me it was a good score.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: Don't count on him for nothing, all right?
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: It was anal no no, no, oh, okay, when did
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: the sexual.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: What did the just read the next question?
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sorry, Yeah, it's not like, what did the
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: sexual practices consist of? Would you mind describing them for
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: me to help in our effort to identify this man?
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: Well, sorry, mister Boxley, I'm starting to blush a little
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: bit over here.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: Actually, it makes no difference to me because it's no
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: secret with me. I'm down here on a homosexual offense.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: They got me locked up for loving another man, Joe,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, mister Boxley, Uh to him, maybe he might
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: be I don't know the terms to use legal terms,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: but he just he fucked me, you see.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: I see?
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: All right?
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: It was anal intercourse?
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: Then ain'tal intercourse? Yeah? That's the legal term, I guess.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, alright, going to the next one. What was the
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: man's age?
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: Let's see, If I had to guess, he looked to
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: me to be about his middle thirties.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: He appeared in his middle thirties in nineteen fifty eight.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: But he had a very nice physique for a man
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: that age, mister Boxley, if you understand what I mean,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: I don't remember that. If he had any tattoos or
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: scars or nothing, I don't know. Hm.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 6: And he spoke good English.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean he never said heard or node or
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: this and that. I see, But he wasn't one of them,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: hi darling and effeminine voice type of homosexuals. If that's
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: what you mean.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: Okay, maybe we can help rather than say he had
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: a voice like yours or mine? Did he have a
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: high voice or a love voice?
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, hey said that.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: I was trying to say that. Uh, this guy was
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: a john. If you meet him on the street, you
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: never you never know. You could go fishing with him,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: you could play poker with him. I don't know if
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: he plays poker or anything, but you know what I mean. Uh,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: don't get me wrong when I say he's a homosexual.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: He's not one of those you know what I mean,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: limp wrists, faggots. He's a butch.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 4: Was he a cultured man? Was he a working man?
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: This is the thing I mean about his voice. You
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: can usually tell what type of economic life a man
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 4: leads by the way he talks. That's what I'm after.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, well, I'd make book. This sum bitch went to college.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: He didn't dress like one. Though he dressed nice now,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: Jeen Davis dressed like a slob. He may dress nice
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: now that he owns a bar and got a little money,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: but back then he dressed like a slob. Actually he
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: was a slob. Not that I've got anything against him
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: or anything.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: I've never seen Jeene Davis. Would you describe him to me?
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: How tall? Would you say?
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: Jean Davis is, Well, he's shorter than I am, definitely shorter.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: He had at that time. False teeth. You say, if
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: he had them, he has got to have them. Now
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: you don't grow them again, I guess I just might
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: as well go and get mine, all right, he bad
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: false teeth. He's about five eight and a half or
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 4: five nine. And how much did he weigh?
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: I'm not good. Get some weight, mister Boxley. I'll say
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: the best I can. I say, weighed about one hundred
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: and sixty pounds, so can wet. If you know what
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: I'm saying and about them false teeth, you right, And
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: that's all I'm gonna say about that.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: Now. He introduced you to this man as Clay Bertrand
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: in the.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: Bar, in the mask Garde bar, Yes.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 4: The masquerade bar. Did Bertrand wear a hat?
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: No, I've never seen that man with the hat on
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: his head or on his Jimmy Johnson never. I don't
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: know if he wears one now, but I've never seen one.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 4: Do we have anything else?
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, just read the question at the bottom of that page.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: So because I got the answer.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: Of eight.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: Bottom of seven.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 4: Okay, question you Now, it's your memory that we're trying
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 4: not and not your drinking habits. We're trying to see
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: what you can definitely recall without any question in your mind.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: I can't recall what the name of the drinks were,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: but I know we had a drink every time we
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: went there. And I know that Clay Bertrand or whatever
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: his name was paid for him all with a big
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: time score like that. Gene Davis wasn't about to go
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: into his pocket for nothing. You know what I'm saying.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: The first time you met him, was Bertrand wearing a suit?
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: Or was he wearing slacks or what?
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: He was? Wearing a suit every time I met him,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: mister Boxley, kind of like yours. I like your suit,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: mister Boxley.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: Every time you met him, he wore suit.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: Well, maybe sometimes he was wearing a sport coat or something,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: but he always had on a jacket, sometimes with tails.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: If you know what I'm saying, You want me to continue?
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: Uh? Yeah, we got.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 4: Okay to get away from this for a little bit.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 4: We'll come back to it later. Would you tell me
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 4: about the period of time you lived in Beaumont, or
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: and Port Arthur and Jefferson County.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: Where are you at, mister Boxley?
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: I'm on page eight.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: Go to page nine, because they ain't nothing underlying on
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: page eight.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: I don't gone on page nine, mister Boxley.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: You don't. Oh well, God damn, mister Boxley. Let's see
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: here you asked me, sir, You said, do you happen
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: to remember the name of the yacht club or where
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: the yacht was located that you met Clay Burton on.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: It was out by the My oh My Club, mister Boxley.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know the name of it, but it was
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: the My oh My. So that's basically the gist of it.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: There was no anti climactic moment. But again, we have
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: a dude locked up for homosexual behavior in Texas in
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty seven who claims to have met a Clay Bertrand.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: And I don't think Clay Shaw was in his mid
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: thirties in nineteen fifty eight.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 4: That's that's the one thing that that stood out to
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 4: me during readon that.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: And he was certainly taller than six foot. Yeah, but
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: what this guy might be talking about is the real
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: Clay Bertrand. Right that hl Ourlige found the real Clay
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: Bertrand who was a bouncer at the show bar and
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: hung out at these all these gay bars New Gene
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: Davis and then maybe this guy was such a character that,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: you know, they kind of used his name as a
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: I think we positive this lets either hero on quick hits.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: They used it as kind of like a bat signal
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: when they were in trouble. They you know, yeah, they
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: Clay Bertrand meant I'm in trouble, get me out of trouble,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: you know, type of thing in that community back then.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: But this dude certainly color for what. I don't think
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: it was Clay Shaw that he had met mm hm
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: at you know, some backdoor activities with, but it was
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 3: a Clay Bertrand, and it just so happens that he
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: was hanging out with the other guy the Dean Andrews
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: claimed to be Clay Bertrand, which is Eugene Davis, who
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 3: was of course he worked at the Court of the
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: Two Sisters. And then you have the testimony of Leander
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: Davit for the AGSCA who worked at the Court of
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: Two Sisters as well, who claimed, you know that Oswald
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: was hanging around there. And there's a lot of butt
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: stuff going on, you know what I'm saying, Like, hmm,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: it's very interesting stuff, very very interesting stuff.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 4: Joseph, Yeah, I think just based on reading that, I
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 4: think you might be right and that he's probably describing
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 4: the other Clay Bertrand just based on and I think
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 4: the hair color too. I think Clay Shaw's hair was
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 4: almost all white at that point, and I think it's
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 4: a light brown like blonde.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. It definitely wasn't brown. Gray and red.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, oh red, yes, red, Yes, it.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: Was the Uh. The oreo has really helped loosen my
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 3: tongue up for that. So very blessed over here. Yeah, James,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: it doesn't sound like he's describing Clay Shaw at all,
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: but like I said, possibly the real Clay Bertrand, because
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: he mentions Eugene Davis, who Dean Andrews said when he
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: perjured himself that Eugene Davis was Clay Burchen, which he
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: obviously is not. But so this William Morris or Billy
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: Morris knew the difference between Eugene Davis and Clay Bertrand,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: and they're not the same people. It just is not clear.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, this guy's in all the right spots and
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: hanging with all the right people they'll possibly have been
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: around Clay Shaw. I mean he's living on Doauphine Street,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: that's where clay Shaw lives, you know what I mean?
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: You're probably frequenting the same bars. And if clay Shaw
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 3: was such a flagrant dude back then, then you think
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: their paths would cross at some point. But I don't know.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, do you know clay Shaw's height Off the top
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 4: of your head.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 3: I want to say it was like six five or six.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 4: Six, right, it's I'm trying to look real quick, a
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 4: lot more than six and a half six feet to
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 4: six and a half to six one, because that's that's
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 4: a big difference. You're gonna tower over a six short
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: of person if you're six five.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, jack said, another plane crash in Philly. Jeez,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: interesting Jackson.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: The play shawl was six feet two inches tall.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 4: Okay, so that's not that's not that big of a
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 4: discrepancy from that.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 3: It's not a giant and is that in heels. I'm
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: just I'm asking for a friend.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 4: I don't think. Uh. Martin and box Lay asked that
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 4: they should have. Oh, they should have for sure. Yeah,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 4: really quickly. I just want to touch on this plane
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 4: crash thing because the everyone on Twitter x is like, oh,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: it's intentional. It's this, it's that. I mean, they took
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 4: out sixty people, a lot of figure skaters. What kind
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 4: of target is that and what what does it achieve?
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: They were undercovers by figure skaters.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 4: But it seems like everyone likes to just make a
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 4: conspiracy a conspiracy for the fact of making a conspiracy,
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 4: and that dilutes when actual conspiracies happen. And I have
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 4: no idea what happened. I've been on here for no
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: hour and twenty minutes more live, but it's frustrating to
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 4: see everything going on in real time, at least from
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 4: my perspective.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: And this one's a lerid. Yet in a residence or area,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: the drones are taken down, they're shooting. Oh, is that
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 3: the conspiracy theory?
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 3: Or aliens took control of the helicopter.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: No, but there was one that said that the like
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 4: automatic flight system took control the helicopter, which is why
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 4: I kind of flew right into the plane. I think
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 4: they probably misjudged it. I mean, I think the helicopter's
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 4: lights were off, and you know them, they're all arrogant,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: like we can do whatever we want, and like they
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 4: probably misjudged it, and I don't know. That's my initial take,
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 4: but who knows these days.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: Well, I live close by, you know, within like a
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 3: our hour and a half of DC, and I just
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: don't understand how that could happen. I just don't. I mean,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: it's just ineptitude. Yeah, I think it was the military's
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: fault because Trump Trump called him right out on it.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: He was like, you know, m.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 4: Hm, yeah, it's just crazy. Another one just happened.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: Though.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 4: Well I'm sure I'll check on that when I check
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 4: X after this.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: But well, I mean they pretty much happened every day somewhere.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: It's just you notice some more, uh, you know, when
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: a bad one happens.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 4: M hm.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: Hopefully everybody's okay.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I hope so, uh yeah, I think I think
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 4: there were three crew on a tiny if I But
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 4: you know what, we do a lot of rob on
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 4: the Wednesday members only. We go over current events. There's
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 4: a lot of JFK stuff going on. We uh we
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 4: touched on the Jefferson Morley took her Carlson interview, uh
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 4: and a bunch of other things that we might not
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 4: have time to get on here get into here in
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 4: your confirmation.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: The whole Caroline rfk Lockle.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, inter Kennedy Family Drama, which of course is not new.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 4: Two people that have been following this, and it's a
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 4: you know, it's an exciting time we have. I think
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 4: it's I think by next Friday day, Rob will be
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 4: the fifteenth day, because they had fifteen days to come
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 4: up with a plan, right for the JFK record releases.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: It came out on the Thursday, so two weeks fourteen days.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 4: Next Friday should be fifteen. So with any luck, we
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 4: might have some type of outline to how this might
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: go down. And you know, I think the term is
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 4: cautiously optimistic, right, Like we're excited. I think everyone online
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 4: and social media that is saying, oh JFK files are
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 4: going to be released, that it's going to give some
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 4: definitive answer. I think we know better than that unfortunately,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 4: but it's still exciting and.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: It is no and you know, being a and I
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: shouldn't admit this live on the air, but I will
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 3: because I'm real like that that's fake. You know when
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 3: these newer document releases, you know, and they've these document
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: dumps are are huge, you know what I mean, I
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: still probably haven't gone through eighty percent of what they've
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: released since twenty seventeen, because it's effing tedious, bro, you
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 3: know what I mean? Like it is, it's it's you
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 3: have to go through and open them up individually just
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: to see a to see what they are. Sometimes there's
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: no description, sometimes the description is wrong. And to do
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 3: that for thousands of documents, I just think I got
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: the time for that, bro, But I should because there
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 3: might be something, you know, I just take for grant
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: and that somebody else is doing it and if they
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 3: find anything, they'll let us know. But maybe nobody is looking,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: because that takes a lot of time, bro. When you're
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: talking about people like like Morley and Simpitch. I mean,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: these guys are like lawyers and writers, and you know
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 3: they have time to look through all this shit.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 4: Either on and uh, I just wanted to. I'm gonna
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 4: bring this up real quick. And I just clicked on
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 4: the last twenty twenty three release and you see this
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 4: here document date right zero zero zero zero zero zero
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 4: zeros yo right, and it's like, good luck finding what
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 4: it's about, segregated collection and then you click on it.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 4: So let's click on this notes it's I guarantee it's
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 4: going to be incursive, right, guarantee you right, good luck,
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 4: good luck, good luck.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll do that, you know, and you're gonna pull
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 3: your fucking eyes out of your head, you know what
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 3: I'm saying, Like.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's And a lot of the documents
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 4: left are gonna be like this. They're gonna be They're
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 4: not going to be dated. You're gonna have to have
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 4: a tremendous amount of context two to decipher even part
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 4: of them and be able to do cursive. And we
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 4: know from a document we were trying to decipher in
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 4: cursive and it was just one paragraph. It took us
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 4: a long time.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we still don't over right, we.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 4: Still don't know. Over right, we have like, yeah, we
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: still don't know. It's so it's you know, people are rejoicing,
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: and we will rejoice because we.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: Like the way I'll do it, Joe. I'll just I'll
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: open like the first twenty does to see what they are,
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, all right, fuck it, and I'll skip
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: like a hundred and then go random somewhere in the
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: middle and open one up and see what it is.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: And then I'll just go random after that, just keep
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 3: scrolling up, scrolling up, hit one random, up, scroll up,
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 3: hit one random. See something juicy, then I'll start around
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: that one. But it takes a lot of time and
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: effort to go through these documents. Yeah, and you just
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: take it for granted that some swinging dick is out
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: there combing through these things one at a time, making
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 3: notes and you know, and it's going to share with
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 3: everybody what they find. But is that the.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 4: Thing and that their interpretation is right, because you're then
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 4: relying them on saying the cursive thing I just showed, Yeah,
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like it's.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: And they're taking nuggets in there that are juicy. You
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: just don't know. But you see you come across a
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: document like that, it's twenty pages long in cursive, I
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: mean you're just like, oh my god.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 4: It's gonna be a lot. But I feel like.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 3: From a different generation and you, cursive doesn't scare me
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: as much.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 4: Well, I am old enough to have been taught cursive,
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 4: I know the young generation now is not. Yeah, I
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 4: am old enough for that barely. I'm not an expert
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 4: at it, but I did learn to write in cursive.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 4: So but then again, cursive is so specific to the
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 4: handwriting and the rs or the ease, like it's.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: Some handwriting is bad, some handwriting is good.
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 4: It's uh yeah, it's never yeah, but yeah, I mean
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 4: you definitely to tray what he said here. You gotta
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 4: be a special type of person to do that work.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 4: Thankful these people exist, yes, do they? I mean we're
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 4: kind of those people. We try. We might not be
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 4: the best, but we try.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: In you too, But I mean how often you dive in?
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, how many of those documents and the new
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: releases do have you been through.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 4: A significant amount? Uh? Maybe half maybe maybe? And that's
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 4: just like browsing them right, clicking on them. This is
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 4: an interesting like and like I can't decipher this. I'm
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 4: gonna go onto the next one. So it right, it's
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 4: it depends. But you know, we found some good documents
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 4: in April twenty three with some Martins in there and
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 4: the new releases, but.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, unredacted, but they've been out since twenty seventeen redacted
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 3: m hm.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 4: So it's uh, it's it's gonna be a process here,
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 4: and I guarantee you a majority of these documents are
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 4: not going to be listed with a date. They're gonna
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 4: have zero zeros yours zeros euros zero zero zero might
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 4: not give the agency, although if you click on it
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 4: you'd be able to find it. I think our best chance,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 4: Rob is some skafuza and the archives to just like
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 4: make a mistake and not know what he's uploading or.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: Well's the thing, Like eighty percent of the stuff that's
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: in NARA is not online, not at Mary Ferrell m
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: because somebody has to physically go there, get the document
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 3: and upload it to Mary Ferrell. And eighty percent of
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: the stuff that's in the archives is not online. Like
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: if you go through the Malcolm Blunt archives, I mean
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: that that dude, he had the right idea. Go there,
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 3: get as much shit as you can. Don't even fucking
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 3: look at it. Just copy everything, Just copy, copy, copy
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 3: as much as you can copy for weeks on in
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 3: go home, throw it in a fucking box and then
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 3: go through it at your leisure.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, make make friends with the people at the archives,
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 4: or make.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 3: A very angry British man go through it and upload
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: it uploaded to the only plan is the UK website,
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 3: Hi Bart, But yeah, no.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 4: You're right, I mean, like make friends with the archivists
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 4: on the lower level you're seeing every day, maybe they
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 4: give you a little more leeway, right if you're friendly
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 4: to them. Right, But that was a long time ago, Malcolm.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 4: What was doing that these days?
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 3: That was in the nineties.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that these days you have to actually, I think
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 4: request what you want to see ahead of time.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a big stupid process right now.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying. It's they of course this process
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 4: is intentional, right, they don't want to make it easy.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 4: I think we're all smart to realize that, right. And
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 4: if you're gonna if you do want to see it,
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 4: you're gonna have to go there and scan it or.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 3: And how many people can afford to do that? To
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 3: go there for weeks and weeks and months and months
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 3: on end and rent a house like a mile away
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: from the archives and walk there every day and just
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: freaking pay to copy everything you come across and.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 4: Pay to shipping back to England. I think he did too. Yeah,
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 4: in boxes which are heavy, that's done by the cost
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 4: is done by wheat, not by diameter, you know what
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 4: I mean. Like, Yeah, that's that's a lot of.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 3: So but I don't think anybody's doing it Malcolm Blunt
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: style since Malcolm Blunt did it because in reality, I mean,
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 3: you'd have to be a millionaire to not have to
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 3: work to pay for all this stuff, to have the
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 3: time to go through all this stuff, you know, the
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 3: passion to go through all the It's like the perfect
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 3: stone or of a researcher. They could do this stuff,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: and I don't think that person exists anymore, sadly.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 4: Very few of them. For sure. I think they make
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 4: you pay for the printouts now too. Whatever sense per page,
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 4: I'm sure they did back then, but sure it's much
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 4: more now.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 3: It's probably like a penny of page back then, like
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 3: in Wiseberg. Yeah, I'm enclosing my three dollars and forty cents.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And I think what Trump really needs to do
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 4: is change the people. The archivist ahead person at the
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 4: archives and and the scuffooz is under him, them him
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 4: or her, I don't know, hire him some help or something,
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 4: and get it on.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: Put all the shit online that I'm saying, it's a job.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: You digitize everything, You scan everything into into the system,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: the digitize everything, put it all online in the cloud
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 3: whatever whatever that's That would be the Shangri Lai moment.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 4: But also rob you know, like you said, it costs
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 4: time and money to do that, right, so the people
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 4: that do that are gonna then want to monetize it
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 4: and keep it for themselves or whatever.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 3: I pay a fee, just like you paid it for
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 3: Mary Farrell. Shit, I pay for Nara. Yeah yeah, I
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 3: mean and for them. They could get interns to do
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: that shit. It's not like they you know, it's not
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: like you have to pay twenty people to do it.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 3: You can just get in terms from a local college
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: and say, Okay, here's your job for the next six months.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 3: Scan as much as a ship, put it online as
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: you possibly can.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and they don't know what they're looking at. So
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 4: that's what I'm saying, like a mistake, a mistake would
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 4: be you have to think there'd be.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 3: Some Sure, that's when you find the good ship when
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: mistakes me Yeah, Tony's file and something else.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but we are working on some good guests in
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 4: the next month or so.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 4: Some might be directly involved with the documents, others that
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 4: have authors and BSDs in the community, and we are
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 4: always working behind the scenes to bring you guys the
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 4: TLG family fire every Friday night. So I have one
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 4: more thing before we go, Rob, if you allowed me
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 4: just two little tidbits, because as we were.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 3: I would let slide this time. Joseph, thank you, thank you.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 4: As we were trying to figure out the topic, I
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 4: was looking at some Jack Ruby stuff. And this is a.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 3: Commission blind interns than tiny How about that they don't
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 3: need a secrety because they can't see nothing. We have
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 3: all the interns from the Helen Keller School of the Deaf, Dumb,
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 3: and Blind. Sorry, Joe, go ahead, It's okay.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 4: So as of December ninth, sixty three, which would have
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 4: been a little more than two weeks after Ruby shot
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 4: Lee in the basement of the DPD, the IRS produced
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 4: a document saying that he had owed forty four thousand dollars,
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 4: four hundred dollars, thirteen cents and thirteen dollars and eighty
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 4: six cents, which is about half a million dollars today
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 4: a justice for inflation. So when you talk about Ruby,
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 4: who the irs forty four grand? Yeah, multiply that by
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 4: ten a little more. Now it's almost half a million.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 4: So when you talk about how you can get someone
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 4: to do a particular job, aka taking out Lee, they
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 4: have to be somewhat compromised in some way, and Ruby
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 4: definitely was in the tune of about half a million dollars,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 4: which I thought was very interesting.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 3: I never seen there.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 4: And this is from nineteen fifty nine, nineteen sixty. It
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 4: looks like some interest here.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 3: That's a lot of interest.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 4: It's this fifty nine sixty three. Yeah, fifty nine and
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 4: sixty three, so it kind of is not in order here,
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 4: but almost half a million dollars in justed for inflation
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 4: owed to the irs, So that is that's almost unrecoverable, right, Yeah.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 4: And the last one I came across, this is commissioned
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 4: exhibit number seventeen forty eight, and this is an FBI
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 4: interview of Joe Campezi. Shout out Jack on November twenty fourth,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 4: sixty three, that would be the day Ruby shot Lee.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 4: And what do you not think the FBI, who is
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 4: very aware of mafia types, what do you think they
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 4: don't mention about Campezi here.
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 3: That he's part of the racketeering mob.
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 4: And yeah, they say, Joseph Campezi Dallas partner is a
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 4: partner in the ownership of the Egyptian lounge Mockingbird Lane.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 4: That's funny furnished the following information concerning his knowledge of Ruby,
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 4: owner and operator of the Carousel Club. He stated he
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 4: has known Jack Ruby since about nineteen forty nine, when
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 4: Ruby was operating the Silver Club Spur club in Dallas,
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 4: also known as the Silver Spur. Can't PZ describe Ruci
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 4: as a very Ruby as a very high, strong, very
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 4: excitable person who would belt someone at the drop of
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 4: a hat. Can't PZ state Ruby is probably well known
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 4: to every businessman and restaurant owner in Dallas through his
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 4: nightclub activities, and can't PZ stated that during the fourteen
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 4: years he has known Ruby, Ruby has never mentioned political
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 4: expression or has expressed any opinions on PAP politics or
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 4: any great dislikes concerning any political party blah blah blah.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 4: But they don't. And I talk about his love of dogs,
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 4: which is very crucial to this FBI document here, Uh
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 4: can't PSI described Ruby as quite a ladies man.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 3: So.
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's that's about the only way he's the
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 4: ladies man. Uh. So, I just thought it was very
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 4: interesting because and our remembers only we played a panel
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 4: with Michael Franchisi.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 3: Didn't that say that his partner was Ralph Paul Campezies.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 4: I didn't see Ralph Paul. Oh, yes, yes, yes, I'm sorry.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 4: Campezy was the opinion that this girl's name would be
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 4: known to Campeze's partner, Ralph Paul.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 3: It wasn't Ralph Paul, Jack Ruby's partner at the Carosel Club.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure the name is familiar.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 3: Somebody fact check your boy on this. We might have
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 3: just found a major uh fact the way there.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 4: Joe Campeze was of the opinion that this girl's name
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 4: would be known to Campsie's partner, Ralph Paul.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 3: And he brought up a good uh, A good comment,
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: A good point here, Joe. If this Russia guy he's
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 3: talking about the Mornshield, we're there to help Lee and
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 3: look after him. Well, why didn't he help get him
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 3: a real job? That's a good question. Well, you know what,
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 3: all these high strung Russians and the white Russians.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 4: I have an answer.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 3: Guy out and give him a job.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 4: I have an answer. I think, well possibly, so you know,
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 4: he of course worked at Jaggerstivertual Stovalls right for a
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 4: few months. He was making decent money there. He also
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 4: worked at that welding company right. So when you take
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 4: a look at the time frame, which is October sixty
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 4: two to April sixty three of their relationship before den
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 4: Warrenshield moved to Haiti and Lee to New Orleans, I
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 4: think he was pretty much employed through most of it.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 4: I think his job issues happened.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 3: Jaggers was probably his best job.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and he got bored with it, just like
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 4: he did with almost everything. I think he could have
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 4: kept it if he wanted to, and they said he
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 4: was a sufficient employee.
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So he quit from there or did he get fired?
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 4: That's a good question. I believe. I believe he quit,
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 4: but I have to check on that. I don't believe
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 4: he was fired from Stoveballs, so someone can fact check
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 4: us on that. But that would be the my answer
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 4: to that. I don't think that was his role really,
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 4: demarn Shield as Traces, I don't think Demarrenshield was as
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 4: concerned with Walter Hilp. You know, yeah, well, well that
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 4: would have been very much like Lee. I think Ruth Payne,
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 4: on the contrary, was very concerned about Marina and the
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 4: kid and the upcoming kid, right Rachel uh and very
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 4: concerned about Lee's ability to provide for them. I'm not
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 4: sure if demarn Shield cared that much about that.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 3: Hey, Ted Rubinstein has entered the chat. Hey Ted, you
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 3: would know so was Ralph Paul Ruby's partner at the
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 3: Carousel Club. That's the question. We'll see if Ted answers
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 3: is here in a little bit.
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 4: But uh yeah, and then we're seeing if.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 3: They are all like financially backing these these mob based
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 3: entertainment joints. You know what I mean. I think Ralph
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 3: Paul was for some reason that name is it's sticking
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 3: to me about being Jack Ruby's. Uh Okay, Ted says, yes,
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 3: I knew it. I knew it. I knew what I
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 3: knew it. So Ralph Paul partners with Jack Ruby Carousel
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 3: and partners with Campeazy at the Egyptian Lounge. That's interesting.
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 3: Yes you did, Ted, Thank you, Thank you for answering,
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 3: my friend. Yes, you are the manswer Ted knows all
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 3: when it comes to the mafia. I know, Yeah, we.
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 4: Should have Ted, you should come on soon. We'd uh.
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 4: I have a lot of mafia questions for you in
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 4: terms of Ruby and and in general.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 3: And Lewis MCWILLI.
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well that's actually what I was getting at
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 4: is what faction of the mafia, what family had the
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 4: most influence on Ruby? You think, like, was it Marcello
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 4: and the Campezies, was it like Santa Traffic Conte or
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 4: was it the kind of Jewish faction which.
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 3: I think we've been in the Chicago set.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's why we need to have ted on. I think, uh,
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 4: you know, McWillie was was related to Lanski's uh casino
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 4: in Vegas. I think he visited there like a week
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 4: before the assassination. He obviously went with McWillie to Cuba
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 4: in nineteen fifty nine when Central Traffic Conte was in
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 4: prison there, And I would just it'd be really interesting
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 4: to to debate which people would have the most influence
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 4: on Ruby. And I think I think the Jewish side,
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 4: the land Schee mcwillie's side might have had the most,
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 4: but I think the Campezes, the Marcelo's and even the
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 4: Traffic Contes because I think his trip might have had
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 4: something to do with that. He got out around that time.
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 4: So that would be a good show topic.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 3: Rob, Yeah, I'm glad I thought of it. Hey, we
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 3: look boxing and something every once in a.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 4: While, right, Yeah, Well, yeah, you would definitely have to
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 4: think that he definitely had a number of investors in Ruby,
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 4: did in all three of his clubs at the time, right,
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 4: being that much in debt, right, you're not out outright
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 4: owning all of it, you have investors.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So yes, Jack, the campses were under Marcelo. Yep,
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 4: that's what I was saying.
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 3: I think a deep dive in a Ralph Paul he's
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 3: in store, well not literally, but figured if you know
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 3: what I mean with the box.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 4: Definitely. So all right, Well that's all I had. I
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 4: just found those two little tidbits that I wanted to
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 4: waste some time on, and I'm glad I did right
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 4: right now.
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you Joe, and thank you folks for hanging
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 3: with us for another exciting episode of the Lone Guming Podcast.
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 3: Episode of number three twenty eight. Join us next Wednesday evening.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 3: If you are a channel member for the super Secret
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 3: Wednesday Show, well you learn ahead of time what we're
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 3: going to be talking about sometimes unless we haven't figured
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 3: it out yet, and a whole lot of other fun goodies.
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 3: If you're already subscribed to the channel, all you gotta
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 3: do is click the join button on a web browser
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 3: because Apparently it doesn't work on the app for some reason.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 3: I don't get it, but whatever. But if you're on
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 3: your laptop or your iPad or just on the browser,
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 3: you know, normally, where you hit subscribe, there's a join
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 3: button and pick your level, hang out with us and
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 3: join join the Super Secret Club. We have a blast here,
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 3: So thank you guys for hanging out with us again
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 3: and again. Hopefully no no Ruby, not hopefully no Ruby,
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 3: but no Ruby.
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 4: Next week members only.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 3: Hopefully yes, hopefully Ruby will be out of exile.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 4: Free Ruby.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 3: We do uh and hopefully we can make it happened soon.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 3: I'll holler at old Tis see what he says. I
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 3: know we already said. Cool. That means yes and Ted
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 3: speak Yeah.
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 4: Good night to you, Sally, thank you staying up with us.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 3: Where the hell's Dino?
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 4: That's a good question. Good and yes, as Tiny says,
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 4: hit the like before you leave. Let's defeat the algo
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 4: and guess ash the like button. Get a document based
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 4: real research out there, because YouTube doesn't have a ton
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: It stands right now, there's only two of us left alive.
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 2: That's me in Santa TROPICNY as more as I let's
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: be alive because I ain't gonna say ship where, aren't
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: saying If any of you ask the will come near me,
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: you better have a fucking army with your baby. But
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: I've got my ship together and I'll blow the first
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: one of you motherfuckers away that even comes near me.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 3: Hm, that was not I loved it anyway.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 4: I've never complained to me. Give me complain about the.
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 3: Inborn Hall.
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 6: You never heard about him.
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 3: Make the turn horse you.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 4: The greatest lies are told in the name of truth,
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 4: the greatest crimes are committed in the name of justice.
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 4: The quotation is Jim Garrison's.
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 3: It could be used for him or against him in
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 3: this strange case.
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 4: Good night, no.
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 3: Tivy for you can.
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 4: Just please pick up peace.
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 3: I have a good look at me wrong, but she's
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 3: too fat to pick up. It's okay.