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SHOCK! TWO AMERICAN TEENS ON VACATION STAB ITALIAN COP/NEW GROOM DEAD · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with nitty grace. The police say this all
0:14
Speaker 1: began in this neighborhood in a drug deal gone bad.
0:17
Speaker 1: They say, the two Americans allegedly approached a man asking
0:21
Speaker 1: where they could buy drugs. That man led them to
0:24
Speaker 1: a dealer who, please say soldom fake cocaine. The two
0:28
Speaker 1: growing angry, allegedly going back to the scene and stealing
0:32
Speaker 1: the backpack of the man who pointed them to the
0:34
Speaker 1: drug dealer. This surveillance video capturing two men running away
0:39
Speaker 1: after the theft. Police say the man called his own
0:42
Speaker 1: phone that was in the stolen bag and spoke to
0:45
Speaker 1: the two Americans. He says they offered him an exchange
0:48
Speaker 1: his bag for a gram of cocaine and a hundred euros,
0:52
Speaker 1: but he went to the police instead, who set up
0:55
Speaker 1: an undercover operation that ended with the officer stabbed times.
1:01
Speaker 1: Why do I care what happened in Italy because two
1:06
Speaker 1: American tourists teens age eighteen and nineteen are not the
1:12
Speaker 1: alleged victims this time. I'm always covering when an American
1:17
Speaker 1: is hurt overseas. This time, two American men are charged
1:23
Speaker 1: with murdering a police officer over what some fake dope.
1:31
Speaker 1: I am just sick to my stomach. I mean it.
1:34
Speaker 1: See Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for being
1:36
Speaker 1: with us. What in the world were these two thinking?
1:41
Speaker 1: You're hearing from our friend at ABC News Ian Panel,
1:46
Speaker 1: But take a listen to more of what Ian has
1:49
Speaker 1: to say, please say. The two men then return to
1:51
Speaker 1: that hotel not far away, preparing to leave the country
1:55
Speaker 1: when Please swooped in. Both teams, allegedly confessing have to
1:59
Speaker 1: investigate us, say they found overwhelming evidence in the room,
2:03
Speaker 1: including the supposed murder weapon cleverly concealed behind one of
2:07
Speaker 1: the ceiling tiles, and bloody clothing. But as a hearing
2:10
Speaker 1: this weekend, both Americans waved their right to speak see
2:15
Speaker 1: what I mean. A public defender for Finnegan Elder saying
2:18
Speaker 1: his client wasn't well and psychologically tried back in San Francisco.
2:24
Speaker 1: Some who knew him shocked. I've never seen Finnegan do
2:28
Speaker 1: anything anything that He's always He's been super nice to me.
2:35
Speaker 1: The Elder family releasing a statement saying we've not been
2:38
Speaker 1: able to communicate with our son, adding as any parents
2:42
Speaker 1: would be, we're deeply concerned. Well, we've been hearing the
2:45
Speaker 1: exact opposite about their behavior in the neighborhood, joining me
2:49
Speaker 1: right now to break it down and put it back
2:51
Speaker 1: together again. An all star panel California prosecutor, author of
2:56
Speaker 1: Red Flags on Amazon, Wendy Patchet. She knows her away
3:01
Speaker 1: around the courthouse. Renowned forensics psychiatrist doctor Daniel Bober Joining me.
3:08
Speaker 1: Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath
3:12
Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan. Also with US
3:17
Speaker 1: former Chief Medical Examiner doctor Chris Sperry. Right now to
3:24
Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave mcdave, just start
3:29
Speaker 1: at the beginning. Now, I know your impulse is to
3:33
Speaker 1: rush to the headline, but please start at a We'll
3:38
Speaker 1: get to ze what were these two doing unschaperoned in Italy?
3:42
Speaker 1: To start with, well, these are two high school friends
3:45
Speaker 1: who just wrapped up their first year at junior college.
3:50
Speaker 1: Gabrielle Christian Natalie Horth actually has family in Italy. He
3:55
Speaker 1: and Finn that's what they call this guy at Finn
3:58
Speaker 1: Elder why said friends in northern California, and Natalie horthe
4:03
Speaker 1: invited him to vacation in Italy with some of Natali
4:08
Speaker 1: Horth's family that's why they were there unattended on this vacation.
4:12
Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us to American tourists
4:15
Speaker 1: age eighteen and nineteen allegedly confess to killing an Italian
4:21
Speaker 1: police officer in an undercover sting. They were trying to
4:25
Speaker 1: recover a backpack they stole in Rome during a boxed
4:31
Speaker 1: drug deal where they were given aspirin instead of cocaine.
4:37
Speaker 1: You know, Wendy Patrick, it's bringing to mind, as a
4:40
Speaker 1: matter of fact, doctor Chris Sperry, I think you were
4:42
Speaker 1: actually the medical examiner that I called to the stand
4:46
Speaker 1: on this case. I know you don't remember it, but
4:49
Speaker 1: I do, Wendy Patrick. I remember how shocked I was.
4:53
Speaker 1: A mother was shot dead. She had been sitting in
4:58
Speaker 1: her front yard in a you know those fold up
5:02
Speaker 1: lounge chair things, and it was hot outside, and a
5:06
Speaker 1: guy came up, A doper came up and said, hey,
5:10
Speaker 1: you know this guy. She goes, yeah, well the guy
5:13
Speaker 1: was a doper in the neighborhood, you know, a neighborhood doper,
5:18
Speaker 1: just like all these neighbors and their California neighborhood going yes,
5:23
Speaker 1: he was such a nice boy. So this lady goes, yeah,
5:26
Speaker 1: I know, him. So the man buys dope from the guy.
5:30
Speaker 1: The dope turned out to be bad. He goes back
5:33
Speaker 1: and shoots the woman, shoots her dead. She's still sitting
5:38
Speaker 1: there on her lounge chair, reminding her own business. I
5:41
Speaker 1: remember his name, Zilner. That was the defendant's name. I
5:45
Speaker 1: think Leonard Zielner. But long story short, Wendy Patrick asked
5:50
Speaker 1: him for cocaine. It sounds like like a bunch of
5:52
Speaker 1: idiots to us, But when you're a dope atic, that's serious.
5:57
Speaker 1: That's exactly true, Nancy, And that's something that it's hard
5:59
Speaker 1: to comprehends looking in from the outside. As you say,
6:03
Speaker 1: this is a life and death scenario unfortunately quite literally
6:08
Speaker 1: to somebody who's an addict. And that's what expert witnesses
6:11
Speaker 1: a trial or for to explain this dynamic to the jury.
6:15
Speaker 1: How could one become so angry that murder is the
6:19
Speaker 1: answer to being sold a false drug. So you're absolutely right,
6:23
Speaker 1: and that God bless that poor lady. How awful to
6:27
Speaker 1: be in the scenario, or I should say, the surviving
6:30
Speaker 1: family members at this point to have to vouch for
6:34
Speaker 1: somebody that, in her eyes, seemed so nice. It's like
6:37
Speaker 1: the axe murder next door, Nancy, isn't it You have
6:40
Speaker 1: no idea the people that really live around you when
6:43
Speaker 1: all you do is wave to them in the morning
6:45
Speaker 1: before you go to work. Now, the two teens are
6:47
Speaker 1: said to have told cops they have been looking to
6:49
Speaker 1: buy drugs and rhymes Chestivary District at two a m.
6:56
Speaker 1: But we're sold crushed aspirin instead, you know. Uh. To
7:01
Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists joining me, that sounds like
7:05
Speaker 1: the idiots to call nine one one and say somebody
7:07
Speaker 1: stole their dope. Okay, what do they think is going
7:12
Speaker 1: to happen? So these guys are telling the cops that
7:16
Speaker 1: they committed a murder because they were wronged. They were
7:21
Speaker 1: so crushed aspirin instead of cocaine, Like a cop is
7:25
Speaker 1: gonna care? What's that thinking? Yeah, it absolutely no sense.
7:30
Speaker 1: It sounds like something teenagers would do, and you I
7:33
Speaker 1: don't want to go down that road and saying, you know,
7:35
Speaker 1: teenagers can be impulsive and they don't think it through,
7:38
Speaker 1: but it is pretty stupid. We're learning that two San
7:41
Speaker 1: Francisco teams on a quote drug holiday in Rome have
7:46
Speaker 1: been arrested in the Italian capital on charges of murder
7:49
Speaker 1: and attempted extortion in connection with the fatal stabbing of
7:54
Speaker 1: a police officer. A police officer reportedly one of the
7:59
Speaker 1: two teens, the nineteen year old Finnegan, confessed to stabbing
8:03
Speaker 1: a thirty five year old paramilitary cop, Mario Churchilli Rega,
8:11
Speaker 1: to death during an apparent drug deal gone wrong. The
8:14
Speaker 1: second Californian, Christian fourth, eighteen, was also involved in the
8:20
Speaker 1: scuffle that led to the CoP's death. Now, in a statement,
8:24
Speaker 1: Rome Police revealed that both men had been interrogated in
8:29
Speaker 1: the face of overwhelming evidence, they eventually confessed to the crime.
8:33
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means, but hey, you ain't
8:37
Speaker 1: in Kansas anymore. People, you don't have the constitution protecting
8:41
Speaker 1: you from interrogation. You got an alleged cop killer. What
8:45
Speaker 1: do you think happened behind bars? What we know is
8:49
Speaker 1: this two teen Americans being held for murder in Italy
8:56
Speaker 1: and it is not looking good. Crime stories with Nancy
9:20
Speaker 1: Grace that maybe shock and disbelief back home in America,
9:30
Speaker 1: but here in Italy it's anger and outrage. This has
9:32
Speaker 1: become a huge political issue. It's on the front pages
9:36
Speaker 1: of all the newspapers. He's leading all the TV news
9:39
Speaker 1: and now the Deputy Prime Minister of itsterally tweeting saying
9:42
Speaker 1: that the two men held inside this jail should be
9:45
Speaker 1: given life with hard labor. That is from ABC's Ian
9:51
Speaker 1: panel reporting there in Italy. Back to Dave Matt Crime
9:55
Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter Dave mac you kill a
10:02
Speaker 1: cop in another country. Over here, when you kill a cop,
10:08
Speaker 1: you're really treated with kid gloves because the cops know
10:11
Speaker 1: everybody's going to be watching their every move. I've got
10:15
Speaker 1: a pretty strong feeling it's not like that in Italy, Nancy.
10:18
Speaker 1: The people of Italy, and this is a nationwide story,
10:22
Speaker 1: they are beyond apoplectic. This man is a heroic figure
10:27
Speaker 1: at thirty five years old. You realize he was a newlywed. Nancy.
10:31
Speaker 1: They had to hold the guy's funeral in the same
10:33
Speaker 1: place where he got married just six weeks earlier. The
10:37
Speaker 1: people of Italy are just beside themselves. They've been in
10:41
Speaker 1: the streets. They've built a makeshift shrine at the scene
10:44
Speaker 1: of this crime. And politicians, you know, the Prime Minister
10:48
Speaker 1: was there consoling his newlywed gride slash widow at the funeral.
10:53
Speaker 1: We've got politicians that are tweeting out incredible things before
10:57
Speaker 1: this has even seen its day in court yet. So yeah,
11:00
Speaker 1: the people of Italy are not going to stand for them.
11:03
Speaker 1: All my stars, they're probably all mad anyway over Amanda
11:06
Speaker 1: Knox still because in Italy everybody thinks Amanda Knox committed
11:10
Speaker 1: murder on Meredith Kircher her remake, remember Foxy Knoxie. And
11:14
Speaker 1: now two Americans come over there and kill a cop.
11:16
Speaker 1: According to police, we know that the cop Rega had,
11:20
Speaker 1: just as Dave Max said, come back to work from
11:22
Speaker 1: his honeymoon. This is very compelling to me, to doctor
11:30
Speaker 1: Chris Sperry, former Chief Medical Examiner, and that doesn't just
11:36
Speaker 1: happen overnight. People. You go to school, you go to
11:39
Speaker 1: medical school, you work your way up, you do the
11:42
Speaker 1: night shifts, you literally perform thousands, thousands of autopsies, and
11:49
Speaker 1: then somehow you land as the chief medical Examiner. Listen
11:56
Speaker 1: to this, doctor Sperry. Eight stab wounds to his back,
12:02
Speaker 1: important in his chest, one of the injuries apparently having
12:07
Speaker 1: struck his heart. Doctor Sperry, this cop never had a chance.
12:12
Speaker 1: But what is jumping out to me probatively? In other words,
12:16
Speaker 1: what does it prove to me? Does it prove anything.
12:18
Speaker 1: He was literally stabbed in the back, Doctor Sperry, Yes,
12:22
Speaker 1: he was taken by surprise to a great extent. He
12:25
Speaker 1: may have been trying to escape, but clearly one of
12:29
Speaker 1: the assailants jumped on him from the back. And stabbings
12:34
Speaker 1: are up close and personal between two or more people,
12:38
Speaker 1: so there's a struggle going on. The cop doesn't have
12:42
Speaker 1: a chance, and once he starts getting stabbed in the back,
12:46
Speaker 1: it's just a matter of time before he loses so
12:49
Speaker 1: much blood that he can't struggle anymore. Once the stab
12:53
Speaker 1: wound hit the heart, he had maybe ten or twelve
12:55
Speaker 1: seconds of consciousness and then it started to be all over.
12:59
Speaker 1: Doctor Spare, You've always been pretty stoic, and I've known
13:02
Speaker 1: you for a really long time. We were to gather
13:06
Speaker 1: a lot in court. Sadly for you. I ambushed you
13:10
Speaker 1: many many times at the Medical Examiner's office during autopsies.
13:16
Speaker 1: We've been out and broken bread together at lunch. I've
13:21
Speaker 1: never seen you get broken up over a victim. You're
13:24
Speaker 1: very very Let me just say, um, what's that word
13:29
Speaker 1: sterile about the whole thing? Which is what a prosecutor
13:32
Speaker 1: needs when somebody's up on the stand, But does it
13:36
Speaker 1: ever bother you? I mean recounting this about how he's
13:41
Speaker 1: newly wed, and when Dave Mack just told me that,
13:46
Speaker 1: about how they just had the wedding in that cathedral,
13:51
Speaker 1: and now it's the funeral six weeks later, I'm looking
13:55
Speaker 1: at pictures of him showing off his wedding ring. Thank you,
13:59
Speaker 1: Jackie for making me feel even worse showing that picture
14:02
Speaker 1: to me while I'm trying to talk. But does it
14:05
Speaker 1: ever get to you? I mean, how many autopsies have
14:08
Speaker 1: you performed? Sperry. I've done over six thousand, eight hundred
14:12
Speaker 1: myself and seen over one hundred thousand others. Not that
14:15
Speaker 1: you're counting six thousand, thousand, eight hundred. Good Lord, when
14:21
Speaker 1: you're driving home, you know, after autopsies, do you ever
14:25
Speaker 1: think about the backstory or do you just have to
14:27
Speaker 1: keep your heads straight? See? I can never keep my
14:30
Speaker 1: head out of the emotions of a case and what
14:34
Speaker 1: victims and their families were going through. How do you
14:37
Speaker 1: do it? Or do you do it? Well? We build
14:40
Speaker 1: up a wall. Yeah, I don't think about things too much,
14:45
Speaker 1: but I still have to think about them if I
14:47
Speaker 1: If I didn't, i'd be a robot. I'd be, I
14:50
Speaker 1: wouldn't be human. And there's some things that get through
14:53
Speaker 1: the cracks in that wall that are very disturbing. But
14:56
Speaker 1: I can't help but think about it. Yeah, I remember
14:58
Speaker 1: when we had lunch time. I was talking about one
15:01
Speaker 1: of the dead bodies and what happened, and telling you
15:04
Speaker 1: I'd been out trying to find the location and take
15:07
Speaker 1: pictures with what was then a polaroid camera. And I
15:11
Speaker 1: was telling you about the victim and what they had
15:13
Speaker 1: gone through, and you turned around and went two tune rolls.
15:18
Speaker 1: You know, he ordered, you ordered your sushi. I'm like, Okay,
15:22
Speaker 1: obviously I'm too emotionally involved in this case and I
15:25
Speaker 1: should not be dragging down the chief medical Examiner with
15:27
Speaker 1: my angst Joe Scott Morgan. Let's get back to the
15:30
Speaker 1: evidence with me. Forensics expert and author of Blood Beneath
15:34
Speaker 1: My Feet Joseph Scott Morgan. Okay, what do we have,
15:37
Speaker 1: if anything? How do I know other than the stabs
15:41
Speaker 1: in the back, which tells me the guy was trying
15:44
Speaker 1: to get away or was already down. What do we
15:48
Speaker 1: have forensically? How is the stake going to prove this case?
15:51
Speaker 1: Or are they Yeah, I was kind of laughing a
15:55
Speaker 1: bit a second ago when he said the reporter on
16:00
Speaker 1: the air was talking about how he brilliant they brilliantly
16:04
Speaker 1: hid the knife somewhere in the room, and I'm thinking
16:07
Speaker 1: this is not a sign of high intelligence here. These
16:10
Speaker 1: kids are probably going to be uh have a tremendous
16:14
Speaker 1: amount of trace evidence, particularly the perpetrator that's left behind,
16:18
Speaker 1: and then ultimately you have the murder weapon that's hid
16:21
Speaker 1: in the room where they're staying. So you've got connection
16:24
Speaker 1: that's going back here. One of one of the victims
16:29
Speaker 1: or one of the perpetrators alleged that the victim had
16:31
Speaker 1: grabbed him by the neck in order to, you know,
16:36
Speaker 1: try to try to corral him in this set of
16:40
Speaker 1: circumstances once he realized that the kid was breaking the law,
16:45
Speaker 1: and I think I would imagine the Italian authorities went
16:48
Speaker 1: some distance to try to document that information as well.
16:52
Speaker 1: Did he or did he not have marks on his neck?
16:55
Speaker 1: Or was this just an ambush killing him, this poor
16:57
Speaker 1: fellow who, as you stated, had just recently return Well
17:00
Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute, and wait a minute.
17:02
Speaker 1: Hold on, let's talk about the facts as to whether
17:05
Speaker 1: it was an ambush killing, because that I mean in
17:09
Speaker 1: the America, this would be a death penalty case. You
17:11
Speaker 1: kill a cop plus an ambush you lay in. Wait,
17:15
Speaker 1: that's two aggravating circumstances right there. But as far as ambush,
17:21
Speaker 1: let me understand the facts. Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor.
17:26
Speaker 1: They had bought what they thought was cocaine, It turned
17:28
Speaker 1: out to be crushed aspirin, and they go back. So
17:33
Speaker 1: that tells me right there it was an ambush. Yeah,
17:36
Speaker 1: those are the kinds of facts, Nancy, You're exactly right
17:38
Speaker 1: that we're going to want to focus on, is this
17:41
Speaker 1: wasn't something that happened at the spur of the moment
17:43
Speaker 1: and the heat of passion. Instead, it involved a measure
17:47
Speaker 1: of deliberation, planning. I hesitate to say sophistication, because as
17:51
Speaker 1: you point out, there were some clumsy details. Nonetheless, the
17:54
Speaker 1: intent to actually go back and do what they did
17:57
Speaker 1: can be inferred through those of circumstances. So absolutely, that's
18:02
Speaker 1: the kind of thing you're going to be looking at
18:03
Speaker 1: and determining what was their mindset at the time of
18:06
Speaker 1: the killing. Guys, we are talking about two America's now
18:09
Speaker 1: charged with not only murder in Italy, but murder of
18:13
Speaker 1: a police officer, Dave mac Where are they being held
18:19
Speaker 1: and what are their conditions right now? They're being held
18:22
Speaker 1: and what we would look at as a county jail.
18:25
Speaker 1: They're actually in an area that's a holding area of
18:28
Speaker 1: four suspects and they can be held for up to
18:32
Speaker 1: a year without being charged with a crime. Italy has
18:36
Speaker 1: things a little bit different than we do. So they're
18:38
Speaker 1: in jail right now, and they're being held in isolation.
18:41
Speaker 1: They're not together. They're actually being held in isolation, separated
18:45
Speaker 1: from one another and separated from everybody else that's in
18:48
Speaker 1: this particular jail. Guys, I want to tell you about
19:06
Speaker 1: something very important to me. I hope you can join
19:08
Speaker 1: me this Saturday, six o'clock Eastern, five Central on Oxygen
19:13
Speaker 1: for Injustice with Nancy Grace. I think about this woman
19:16
Speaker 1: so often. Michelle might Bey. She got up super early
19:19
Speaker 1: one morning, got her coffee in her car, checked on
19:23
Speaker 1: her two little girls, and headed off to work early.
19:25
Speaker 1: She wanted to take a few days off at the
19:28
Speaker 1: end of the week to spend time with her children
19:30
Speaker 1: and her husband. So she goes to work this big, huge,
19:34
Speaker 1: sprawling laboratory and processing center Thermo Fisher. She was head
19:40
Speaker 1: of HR. She never saw her children alive again. She
19:44
Speaker 1: was brutally murdered at work, the purp dragging her body,
19:49
Speaker 1: leaving a trail of blood from her office. Who in
19:53
Speaker 1: that sprawling lab had an axe to grind with Mom
19:58
Speaker 1: Michelle might be who sentenced her little girls to life
20:03
Speaker 1: without a mom. We reinvestigate the case, shining lights on
20:10
Speaker 1: what really happened. Please join us Saturday, Oxygen six o'clock Eastern,
20:17
Speaker 1: five Central and the case of the murder of Mom
20:22
Speaker 1: Michelle matt Be. We want justice. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
20:38
Speaker 1: Both suspects graduated from Tamapia's High school in twenty eighteen.
20:43
Speaker 1: Some people who know them say they're not too surprised
20:46
Speaker 1: by the arrest. Italian police say both suspects are in
20:50
Speaker 1: nineteen years old vacationing in Rome. Finnegan Elder from San
20:54
Speaker 1: Francisco and Gabriel to Tally Horthe from Mill Valley. I've
20:58
Speaker 1: known Finn since who was born a n I'm in shock.
21:00
Speaker 1: He's the nicest kaya, one of the nicest neighbors. Another
21:04
Speaker 1: neighbor wasn't too surprised about the arrest, saying Elder was
21:07
Speaker 1: a troublemaker, and I've gotten drunk and thrown up in
21:09
Speaker 1: front of their home. I've kind of always known that
21:12
Speaker 1: he's a bit of a bad guy. There's Tamil pious
21:14
Speaker 1: high student is talking about the second suspect, Gabriel and
21:17
Speaker 1: the Tally. He apparently had a reputation for beating up kids.
21:21
Speaker 1: He would come up in stories of just like activities
21:23
Speaker 1: you wouldn't want your kids getting into, like, so he's
21:26
Speaker 1: kind of been known around town as like a sort
21:28
Speaker 1: of delinquent character. Audacity of going and doing that in
21:32
Speaker 1: another country is frightening, But I just think it's disgusting
21:36
Speaker 1: to kill a police officer when they're keeping everyone safe.
21:39
Speaker 1: You're hearing from our friend dot Lynn a kpix San Francisco,
21:43
Speaker 1: So people in the neighborhood, most of them anyway, not
21:46
Speaker 1: surprised at all. These two have gotten in trouble, but
21:49
Speaker 1: killing a cop in Italy, a neely wed cop to
21:53
Speaker 1: top it off. Now, Finnegan, one of the two, later
21:57
Speaker 1: claimed to investigators that neither Rega the victim, were the
22:00
Speaker 1: second officer. Very Alli identified themselves as police. In a
22:05
Speaker 1: separate interview, Horthe completely contradicted that claim. And admitted. Both
22:11
Speaker 1: of the cops had disclosed who they were, that they
22:15
Speaker 1: were cops. Quote when we saw them, we approached, we qualified,
22:20
Speaker 1: and after a few moments the struggle broke out. And
22:23
Speaker 1: that's from the other cop very alley. After I heard
22:27
Speaker 1: Mario scream with multiple stabs, I rushed to rescue him
22:30
Speaker 1: while they the two teams were running away. I immediately
22:34
Speaker 1: called for helping the operations center to ask for helping
22:36
Speaker 1: give a description of the two attackers. I can't imagine
22:40
Speaker 1: that moment out on the street when your partner is
22:44
Speaker 1: stabbed dead in the back. What do we know about
22:47
Speaker 1: these two? We know that some people in neighborhood say
22:52
Speaker 1: that they were wonderful. Others say they had a long
22:55
Speaker 1: history of misbehavior. But I want you to take a
23:00
Speaker 1: listen to this Tonight's Italian Police on Defense. After this
23:04
Speaker 1: league photo showing one of the American teens accused of
23:07
Speaker 1: murdering the Roman police officer blindfolded and handcuffed his head
23:11
Speaker 1: down inside a police station, the image splashed across Italian media,
23:16
Speaker 1: the police commissioner calling what's happened illegal and a mistake.
23:19
Speaker 1: Officials say the image was taken after suspects gave. Natalie
23:22
Speaker 1: Hrs and Filligan Elder were taken him for questioning, and,
23:26
Speaker 1: according to police, confessed to being involved in the incidents
23:29
Speaker 1: that led to the fatal stabbing of newlywed officer Mario Cechiello. Rega.
23:34
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friend at ABC News Ian panel. Did
23:37
Speaker 1: you hear that, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. I've seen the
23:40
Speaker 1: photo of one of the teens handcuffed and blindfolded. Oh honey,
23:46
Speaker 1: if that happened in the US, all h double l
23:49
Speaker 1: would break loose, blindfolding and handcuffing at the same time
23:53
Speaker 1: a defendant blindfolding. That would never wash here. That's right,
23:58
Speaker 1: it would never happen here. We're very careful to ensure
24:01
Speaker 1: that everybody is treated with respect and dignity, and whether
24:05
Speaker 1: you're in and out of custody or whether you're a
24:07
Speaker 1: criminal suspect or not. So you're right, Nancy, that's definitely
24:10
Speaker 1: going to play a role in what happens next, and
24:13
Speaker 1: in terms of what the confession was like, what the
24:16
Speaker 1: circumstances were like, what prompted it. Remember, you and I
24:20
Speaker 1: have both been in court when false confession experts have
24:23
Speaker 1: been called by the defense and have relayed facts and
24:26
Speaker 1: circumstances that might lead to such actually happening at a
24:29
Speaker 1: police station. So yes, it's important. It may not be
24:32
Speaker 1: the absolutely end all in terms of how we view
24:36
Speaker 1: that resulting confession, but certainly it's a huge factor and
24:40
Speaker 1: viscerally we don't even like looking at a photo like that,
24:43
Speaker 1: regardless of what somebody is accused of. You're absolutely right.
24:45
Speaker 1: Big difference though, to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, between
24:48
Speaker 1: a false confession and a coerced confession. A false confessionist
24:53
Speaker 1: when you confess is something you didn't do. A coerce
24:56
Speaker 1: confessionist when they beat you, threaten you, torture you to
25:00
Speaker 1: you give a confession. I don't think that there's really
25:03
Speaker 1: any doubt. I mean, hold on to Jess Got Morgan,
25:05
Speaker 1: forensics expert, professor Forensics, Jackson State University, just got isn't
25:10
Speaker 1: there CCTV close circuit TV footage off some of this? Yeah?
25:15
Speaker 1: I was just taking a look at it, Nancy, and
25:16
Speaker 1: you can see two subjects lasting full speed down the street.
25:20
Speaker 1: They run you into frame and then passed it. As
25:23
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I think that if they apply
25:26
Speaker 1: some technology to this, they might be able to even
25:28
Speaker 1: clarify the video a little bit because you've got kind
25:32
Speaker 1: of a peripheral view of their faces as they're running
25:35
Speaker 1: towards the camera and then around the corner. So from
25:38
Speaker 1: an evidentary standpoint, I think that's going to be kind
25:41
Speaker 1: of powerful. I got to say something really quick, you know,
25:45
Speaker 1: relative to these kids. Now, it wasn't as an egregious offense,
25:49
Speaker 1: but this takes me all the way back to nineteen
25:51
Speaker 1: ninety four Nancy with a name we might not have
25:53
Speaker 1: talked about in a while, and it's Michael Fay and Singapore,
25:57
Speaker 1: where you've got this kid that comes into another country
26:00
Speaker 1: and begins to vandalize vandalize vehicles if I remember correctly,
26:04
Speaker 1: and he was he was actually caned for doing that,
26:07
Speaker 1: and it created a huge media storm. Now you take
26:10
Speaker 1: that and you kick it up a notch. This guy
26:12
Speaker 1: is a national hero that they have literally slaughtered. And
26:17
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You know, the rules, the rules of the
26:19
Speaker 1: game change when you go overseas. You cannot behave this way.
26:23
Speaker 1: People in that country do not attack police officers and
26:26
Speaker 1: certainly paramilitary officers. And I think they're going to have
26:29
Speaker 1: a really tough road in front of them back it
26:31
Speaker 1: up for me just a moment to Crime online dot
26:33
Speaker 1: Com Investigative reporter Crime Online where you can find this
26:36
Speaker 1: and all other break in crime and justice news online.
26:40
Speaker 1: Dave Matt Investigative Reporter, Just one more time for me.
26:43
Speaker 1: Start at the beginning, goes slowly because every third word
26:47
Speaker 1: you say means something to me, probatively as far as
26:51
Speaker 1: what it can prove or not prove in court. Okay, Well,
26:55
Speaker 1: Gabrielle and New Christian and Talihorth and Finnegan Lee Elder.
26:59
Speaker 1: They both went to school together just north of San Francisco,
27:03
Speaker 1: High school friends who actually attended junior college for their
27:06
Speaker 1: first year and were on summer break from that first
27:09
Speaker 1: year junior college. Gabriel Christian Natali Horth is actually he's
27:13
Speaker 1: got family in Italy. He invited Finn Elder to go
27:16
Speaker 1: with him to spend the summer vacation in Italy. That's
27:20
Speaker 1: why they were there. I will sidebar to all of
27:22
Speaker 1: this is that Finnegan Lee Elder, he actually traveled from
27:26
Speaker 1: the United States to Italy with the knife that was
27:30
Speaker 1: allegedly used to kill the police officer. It was his knife.
27:34
Speaker 1: They arrive in Italy, they've done a bunch of shopping.
27:37
Speaker 1: We've seen some pictures of apparently a Natali Horth is
27:40
Speaker 1: actually kind of a show off and a braggart about
27:43
Speaker 1: his family's money. We actually have pictures of him posing
27:46
Speaker 1: outside of the Gucci flagship story Oh white a minute, White,
27:50
Speaker 1: A minute, White a minute. They're rich brats? Is that
27:52
Speaker 1: what you're telling me? Apparently so oh And likes and
27:57
Speaker 1: apparently he likes to brag about it by posting photos online.
28:01
Speaker 1: And back to what some of the high school students
28:03
Speaker 1: said who actually went to school with them, said they
28:05
Speaker 1: were constantly bragging about money and what their families had.
28:08
Speaker 1: So now they're on this Italian summer vacation. Can you
28:11
Speaker 1: imagine I would be so mortified if I caught one
28:16
Speaker 1: of the twins bragging about anything, whether it's a new
28:21
Speaker 1: pair of shoes or a trip to six Flags. I mean,
28:24
Speaker 1: I just how I'm just mortified. Okay, that's a whole
28:30
Speaker 1: I'm going down a rabbit hole on that. Go ahead,
28:32
Speaker 1: back with the facts. Okay, So they're in Italy and
28:34
Speaker 1: apparently now I don't know, Nancy, if they were scheduled
28:38
Speaker 1: to leave town or if they were leaving town because
28:41
Speaker 1: of this murder but when police traveled back to the
28:44
Speaker 1: apartment of the hotel slash apartment they were staying, the
28:46
Speaker 1: guys were packing and getting ready to leave town that day. Again,
28:51
Speaker 1: I don't know if that was planned ahead of time
28:53
Speaker 1: or if this would just happenstance. But as you know,
28:55
Speaker 1: as this started at two o'clock in the morning, they
28:57
Speaker 1: try to buy cocaine off the street. They get old
29:00
Speaker 1: some aspirin. Instead, they go back and challenge this drug
29:04
Speaker 1: dealer and steal the drug dealer's backpack. That's the picture
29:07
Speaker 1: you see them running. That's right after they have stolen
29:10
Speaker 1: the backpack from the alleged drug dealer. The drug dealer
29:13
Speaker 1: then calls his phone it's in the backpack, and he
29:16
Speaker 1: talks to these guys and they arrange a trade. They're saying,
29:19
Speaker 1: we still want our grammar cocaine and now we want
29:22
Speaker 1: you to give us one hundred dollars with the euros
29:24
Speaker 1: as well. He calls the police. The police then set
29:28
Speaker 1: up a sting. They show up. The police officers are
29:31
Speaker 1: in plain clothes and they meet up with Natalie Horthe
29:35
Speaker 1: and Finnegan Lee Elder at later in the morning. That's
29:39
Speaker 1: where the crime occurred. The attack when the boys think
29:42
Speaker 1: they're gonna get cocaine and money and instead they're actually
29:47
Speaker 1: dealing with two police officers who are now taking them
29:49
Speaker 1: under arrest. It was during that struggle that Finn Elder
29:53
Speaker 1: started stabbing the herolic cop and Natalie Horth started physically
29:59
Speaker 1: attacking the partner. So it was an all out fight
30:02
Speaker 1: to the death right there on the street, with Finnegan
30:05
Speaker 1: lee Elder knifing this heroic cop with a knife he
30:08
Speaker 1: brought with him for this Italian vacation Crime Stories with
30:23
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. A tribute to the slain officer has been
30:29
Speaker 1: growing today on the Rome Street corner where Mario Cercello Rega,
30:32
Speaker 1: a thirty five year old newlywed and officer for the
30:35
Speaker 1: Carbineri Police Force, was stabbed to death. The nineteen year
30:39
Speaker 1: old American suspects, whom police say confessed, are being held
30:43
Speaker 1: inside Regina Chiley Prison, where they met with their lawyers today.
30:48
Speaker 1: I found he was stressed, that's for sure, Finnegan lee
30:51
Speaker 1: Elder's lawyer said, but I don't think it's appropriate to
30:54
Speaker 1: do interviews. You're hearing from our friends CBS News seth down.
30:59
Speaker 1: I guess he is rest he's charged in murdering a cop.
31:02
Speaker 1: We are also learning to judge. A judge, says the
31:06
Speaker 1: American teens accused of killing the Italian police officer displayed
31:10
Speaker 1: quote total absence of self control. And the reality is,
31:16
Speaker 1: even if they were, they were out looking for dope.
31:18
Speaker 1: But even if they were high. To Wendy Patrick, veteran
31:21
Speaker 1: California prosecutor, in America, the voluntary use of drugs or
31:27
Speaker 1: alcohol is not is rarely ever a defense. In fact,
31:32
Speaker 1: for it to be a defense, you have to be
31:34
Speaker 1: totally comatose. You have to be passed out, and even
31:40
Speaker 1: then it's questionable. So if they were high on dope
31:44
Speaker 1: or alcohol, that's not going to make a difference under
31:47
Speaker 1: the law in America. That's right, Nancy. There are certain
31:50
Speaker 1: narrow circumstances where voluntary intoxication can be a defense to
31:54
Speaker 1: certain specific intent crimes. But that's the more the exception
31:57
Speaker 1: than the rule as a general rule. You're right, in fact,
31:59
Speaker 1: in me even be an aggravate in some circumstances. So right,
32:03
Speaker 1: the fact that it's being even discussed in connection with
32:07
Speaker 1: explaining what they did, it would certainly not save them here.
32:10
Speaker 1: And we will be following this to see if it
32:12
Speaker 1: actually plays a role over there as well. I am
32:16
Speaker 1: just learning new information now. This is according to the
32:20
Speaker 1: San Francisco Chronicle that one of the two American teens
32:24
Speaker 1: now charged and killing a cop had punched a fellow
32:28
Speaker 1: student punched a fellow high school student at a party
32:33
Speaker 1: in stern Grove that left the victim with a severe
32:37
Speaker 1: brain injury. Whoa Finnegally elder who's now accused of stabbing
32:44
Speaker 1: the neelywed cop dead, stabbing him eleven times m M.
32:51
Speaker 1: Leaving him bleeding out in the street over a botch
32:54
Speaker 1: cocaine deal. An elder and its eighteen year old buddy,
32:58
Speaker 1: Gabriel Christian fourth, also of San Francisco. Now we're learning
33:02
Speaker 1: one of them punched a friend in the face, leaving
33:06
Speaker 1: him with a brain injury. I mean, how do you
33:10
Speaker 1: do that, doctor, Chris Sperry, How do you punch somebody
33:12
Speaker 1: so violently? They have a brain injury. If you put someone,
33:15
Speaker 1: especially if you hit them and they fall down and
33:17
Speaker 1: hit their head on the concrete or on the hardwood
33:21
Speaker 1: floor or something like that, that is usually where the
33:24
Speaker 1: severe brain injuries come from, is the impact against the floor.
33:28
Speaker 1: It's very hard, it's very difficult to actually cause a
33:31
Speaker 1: bain injury from a direct punch, but it's the fall,
33:35
Speaker 1: the impact that causes a bad injury. Well, doctor Sperry,
33:38
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I'm reading on in the r and
33:41
Speaker 1: the information I've just gotten. Elder, who was sixteen years
33:44
Speaker 1: old at the time, hit another sixteen year old at
33:47
Speaker 1: a wooded park and it was kind of a nighttime
33:49
Speaker 1: gathering spot for teens. I understand the victim just as
33:52
Speaker 1: you said, without knowing a thing about it, struck his head,
33:56
Speaker 1: fell and struck his head. He was hospitalized with a
33:59
Speaker 1: quote life threatening injury, experienced a long recovery, and has
34:05
Speaker 1: since graduated from high school and in his attending college.
34:08
Speaker 1: He did not give a statement. Wow, Okay, we know
34:13
Speaker 1: that Elder turned himself in then and was one of
34:17
Speaker 1: about twelve people suspended from the final game of the season,
34:22
Speaker 1: so he turned himself in. I mean, you would think
34:24
Speaker 1: doctor Bober with me, forensic psychiatrist, doctor Daniel Bober, that
34:29
Speaker 1: he would have learned his lesson about not controlling his
34:32
Speaker 1: impulse Sunfortunately, Nancy has got a lesson. You can really
34:35
Speaker 1: learn it. You know, it's just sort of biology. It's
34:37
Speaker 1: that last part of your brain that develops when you're
34:40
Speaker 1: about twenty five, called the prefrontal cortex that helps with
34:43
Speaker 1: impulse control, so that hardware is not even there. And
34:46
Speaker 1: again that doesn't absolve him of responsibility, but impulse control
34:49
Speaker 1: is definitely something that is not a strong suit for teams. Well,
34:53
Speaker 1: he was treated in juvy court. I don't know what
34:56
Speaker 1: he got, but apparently not much because he was straight
34:59
Speaker 1: back out. Guys. For those of you just joining us,
35:02
Speaker 1: two teams now held an Italian gail after killing a
35:06
Speaker 1: carp I want you to take a listen to our
35:08
Speaker 1: friend at ABC News, Ian Pannell. The police say this
35:12
Speaker 1: all began in this neighborhood in a drug deal gone bad.
35:15
Speaker 1: They say the two Americans allegedly approached a man asking
35:18
Speaker 1: where they could buy drugs. That man led them to
35:21
Speaker 1: a dealer who, please say soldom fake cocaine. The two
35:24
Speaker 1: growing angry, allegedly going back to the scene and stealing
35:28
Speaker 1: the backpack of the man who pointed them to the
35:30
Speaker 1: drug dealer. This surveillance video capturing two men running away
35:34
Speaker 1: after the theft. Police say the man called his own
35:37
Speaker 1: phone that was in the stolen bag and spoke to
35:40
Speaker 1: the two Americans. He says They offered him an exchange
35:43
Speaker 1: his bag for a gram of cocaine and a hundred euros,
35:46
Speaker 1: but he went to the police instead, who set up
35:49
Speaker 1: an undercover operation that ended with the officer stabbed eight times.
35:54
Speaker 1: That's ABC News Ian Pannell reporting from Italy to Joseph
35:58
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, professor friends Jacksonville State University, an author of
36:01
Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Wait a minute, I
36:04
Speaker 1: remember a scene that I wrote in my first fiction,
36:08
Speaker 1: Eleventh Victim, and Haley Dean, who was the hero the
36:13
Speaker 1: heroine in the case, was being set up for a
36:15
Speaker 1: murder and she was looking through her Manhattan apartment trying
36:19
Speaker 1: to find where she thought someone had planted the murder weapon,
36:22
Speaker 1: and she found it and it was hidden in a
36:26
Speaker 1: light fixture in her den. So she takes it and
36:30
Speaker 1: as one of the longest walks of her life, goes
36:33
Speaker 1: to a local Delhi, goes to the lady's bathroom that
36:37
Speaker 1: she's been in many times, gets on the commode, climbs
36:40
Speaker 1: up through the ceiling where all's through the ceiling, and
36:43
Speaker 1: drops the knife into dirty SuDS in the kitchen dishwater,
36:49
Speaker 1: and then goes back out through the bathroom in this case.
36:53
Speaker 1: I mean I made that up. But in this case,
36:55
Speaker 1: they find the murder weapon hidden up in the ceiling.
36:59
Speaker 1: Now that does not scream knowledge of wrongdoing. I don't
37:04
Speaker 1: know what does just come more. Yeah, they purpose to
37:06
Speaker 1: conceal this weapon, and I think that that probably in
37:09
Speaker 1: the Italian courts, which by the way, move very very slow.
37:13
Speaker 1: We've seen that in the Amanda Knox case, they will
37:17
Speaker 1: try to demonstrate this at great length. Another from a
37:21
Speaker 1: forensic standpoint, I'm wondering how well these two people may
37:27
Speaker 1: have attempted to clean this knife off, because if there
37:30
Speaker 1: is physical evidence that can be tied back to this
37:32
Speaker 1: poor man's body, that will be brought to light as well.
37:35
Speaker 1: I'm talking about blood evidence, and then you know, at
37:38
Speaker 1: at the molecular level, we're talking about DNA. Are they
37:43
Speaker 1: going to be able to lift any of that off?
37:44
Speaker 1: And if that is the case. If that is the case,
37:47
Speaker 1: that is going to be a real nail in their coffin.
37:49
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds in an Italian court. Remember,
37:54
Speaker 1: these two are not shrouded in the protection of the
37:57
Speaker 1: US Constitution. It's a whole another ball game in Italy.
38:02
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime story signing off, Goodbye friend,