Latest / Under the Docs / Room 237 (2012) - Hidden Symbolism in Kubrick's The Shining | Under the Docs 019

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Room 237 (2012) - Hidden Symbolism in Kubrick's The Shining | Under the Docs 019 · Under the Docs

0:00
Speaker 1: Kubrick's f you to Stephen Keane.
0:09
Speaker 2: Under the Ducks, Yeah, under the docks, very break your looks,
0:18
Speaker 2: the shots the dogs under the docks, only the ducks.
0:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, undon the docks, under the.
0:41
Speaker 4: Dogs once again, under the docks. This is paranoid American.
0:52
Speaker 4: Here we got Sean Chris from Kill the Mockingbirds podcast
0:56
Speaker 4: and we're gonna be reviewing what I think is gonna
0:59
Speaker 4: be well or at your time Room two three seven,
1:02
Speaker 4: a movie that breaks down a whole bunch of different
1:05
Speaker 4: theories about Stanley Kubrick's The Shining So welcome back, man.
1:10
Speaker 5: What do you think about this one?
1:12
Speaker 6: Well, this is my first time getting introduced this to
1:15
Speaker 6: this film, and you brought it out like, hey, let's
1:18
Speaker 6: check out this, you know, let's I did not expect
1:21
Speaker 6: what I got and it was great though, Like it
1:24
Speaker 6: was something that like, but it's really good going to
1:26
Speaker 6: something you're like, have no expectations and then I'm like, wow, man,
1:30
Speaker 6: this is this fits right in with the theme of
1:32
Speaker 6: the show, like of how we started out, you know
1:35
Speaker 6: what I mean.
1:36
Speaker 4: Well, I wanted to get right into someone's that were
1:38
Speaker 4: actually a little bit deeper than this one, but this
1:41
Speaker 4: one is like being able to dip your toe into
1:44
Speaker 4: the pool a little bit. You get to get like
1:46
Speaker 4: a nice little sampling. It's on one of those mixtape
1:48
Speaker 4: style documentaries, which I think I'm realizing I really like those.
1:52
Speaker 4: I really like a documentary that says, here's this concept,
1:57
Speaker 4: and here's you know, five or ten or twenty different
2:00
Speaker 4: for in thoughts about that one concept.
2:02
Speaker 5: I'm realizing that as we go through a lot of these.
2:05
Speaker 6: Well, I think also, you as a researcher, like you
2:07
Speaker 6: know you do that anyway, so you like that, Oh
2:10
Speaker 6: I can go down this way, you know what I mean.
2:12
Speaker 6: It gives you instead of two forks in the road,
2:14
Speaker 6: like two ways to go.
2:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll tell me how to think. Don't tell me
2:17
Speaker 4: what Kubrick means. I'll figure that out.
2:19
Speaker 5: Just pick enough options.
2:21
Speaker 4: So this one is called Room two three seven and
2:24
Speaker 4: it came out in twenty twelve with a fun number
2:27
Speaker 4: for years, and it was by a guy named Rodney Asher.
2:30
Speaker 4: And Rodney Asher's actually got another one that came out
2:34
Speaker 4: recently called oz Or.
2:38
Speaker 5: It's about David.
2:39
Speaker 4: Lynch and oz I think it's called oz Lynch or something.
2:42
Speaker 4: So there's kind of like a theme going with some
2:44
Speaker 4: of his documentaries. The one that came out before this one.
2:47
Speaker 4: I think this was the first big one that came
2:50
Speaker 4: out with his name attached to it.
2:52
Speaker 5: It was one called.
2:53
Speaker 4: Like the Evils or something, and it was basically about
2:56
Speaker 4: this scream gems logo that would come on for.
3:00
Speaker 5: Movies and certain TV shows.
3:03
Speaker 4: Anyways, this is kind of this guy's thing is to
3:06
Speaker 4: dissect pop culture and symbolism. And if you're unfamiliar with
3:12
Speaker 4: one of the terms, it'll probably come up. It's synchro mysticism,
3:16
Speaker 4: in which you start to assign meaning the things that
3:20
Speaker 4: match up, Like you notice a pattern and you start
3:22
Speaker 4: ascribing meaning to that pattern. Once you start doing that
3:26
Speaker 4: enough and start coming up with your own crazy theories,
3:29
Speaker 4: then you just call that synchro mysticism. All right, Plodding
3:40
Speaker 4: for the course for this one is actually gonna be
3:43
Speaker 4: pretty straightforward. It's gonna be fun to talk about. The
3:46
Speaker 4: whole entire movie is about reinterpreting The Shining and not
3:50
Speaker 4: the book by Stephen King, but the movie by Stanley Kubrick,
3:54
Speaker 4: which actually changes a lot of very specific details. And
3:58
Speaker 4: because of those changes and because of just the nature
4:02
Speaker 4: of Stanley Kubrick himself, which a lot of people consider
4:06
Speaker 4: a master of cinematography and movies that a lot of
4:09
Speaker 4: people have been reading really deep into this film about
4:13
Speaker 4: little symbols that pop up, and there's so many, but
4:16
Speaker 4: this movie breaks apart five of them really specifically.
4:20
Speaker 5: And I think that if you.
4:21
Speaker 4: Want to get mom and dad, or like grandma and
4:24
Speaker 4: grandpa even into synchro mysticism and breaking down Kubrick movies
4:29
Speaker 4: is probably the best place to start. Like I said,
4:31
Speaker 4: it's like you dip your toe in just the tiniest
4:34
Speaker 4: little bit. So I'm gonna start with my favorite of
4:37
Speaker 4: all these, and that's the shining was Stanley Kubrick's Moonlanding
4:42
Speaker 4: confession that Stanley Kubrick directed the Apollo Moon missions, including
4:48
Speaker 4: the you know, the Big Walk, the Big Moonwalk, that
4:50
Speaker 4: he was part of all of it, and he knows
4:53
Speaker 4: all the secrets and he got this unlimited budget check
4:56
Speaker 4: from the government in order to be privy to this,
4:59
Speaker 4: and that he reveals his confession to the audience through
5:03
Speaker 4: this movie.
5:04
Speaker 5: So what did you think about this claim?
5:08
Speaker 1: They had me the hook line sinker man, I thought, say.
5:12
Speaker 5: No more, We're done. I'm good old yeah.
5:15
Speaker 6: Because at first I'm like, okay, you know, you're trying
5:17
Speaker 6: to get symbolism. They they talk about the Book of
5:21
Speaker 6: Subliminal Seduction and and him getting into the whole art
5:25
Speaker 6: of subliminal messaging and getting involved with different commercial entities
5:30
Speaker 6: to kind of show them like, hey, how did you
5:32
Speaker 6: guys put this little advertisement together to trick people into, like,
5:36
Speaker 6: you know, telling a story or getting them to buy something.
5:39
Speaker 1: But it does, like the one that got me is
5:42
Speaker 1: when and it also.
5:43
Speaker 6: Got the narrator or the guy talking at the time
5:46
Speaker 6: when he's like, yeah, you know, Danny's wearing Apollo eleven
5:51
Speaker 6: specifically sweater, and I think to me then I'm like,
5:54
Speaker 6: all right, man, that's that's tough to like talk out of, right,
5:58
Speaker 6: because that's intentional. Everything he does his intentional. But for
6:01
Speaker 6: sure you're like, okay, and it's Apollo eleven.
6:05
Speaker 5: Right.
6:05
Speaker 4: So that's This theory is Jay Widener's, and he's got
6:09
Speaker 4: a whole series of movies based on this, and we
6:11
Speaker 4: just get a tiny little sampling of his his like
6:15
Speaker 4: overarching theory, which is that this is Stanley Kubrick's confession letter.
6:20
Speaker 4: And among the different examples that we see present in
6:23
Speaker 4: this movie, the biggest one is that Danny is wearing
6:27
Speaker 4: this Apollo eleven sweater, and that when he stands up,
6:30
Speaker 4: he's playing with little trucks, and that that famous Overlook
6:34
Speaker 4: Hotel pattern that you see associated with the shining constantly
6:38
Speaker 4: is actually a representation of an aerial view of the
6:41
Speaker 4: launch pad, and he's playing with these little trucks, and
6:44
Speaker 4: as he stands up, the rocket looks like it's lifting
6:47
Speaker 4: directly off of this, you know, launch pad surrounded by
6:50
Speaker 4: true that one is is Yeah, that's probably like the
6:54
Speaker 4: big cherry on top, big reveal of this entire documentary.
6:58
Speaker 4: They also mentioned that Room two three seven, which was
7:01
Speaker 4: changed from the Stephen King book, was because at the
7:04
Speaker 4: time the moon had been calculated to an average of
7:08
Speaker 4: two hundred and thirty seven thousand miles, and that Jack
7:12
Speaker 4: dealing with all of the different mirrors inside to Overlook
7:16
Speaker 4: Hotel and being buried under like this weird cough caesque
7:20
Speaker 4: sort of hierarchy, was Stanley going through this exact same
7:24
Speaker 4: experience trying to deal with the government, And that the
7:28
Speaker 4: Overlooks manager Stuart Oman in the movie that he's basically
7:33
Speaker 4: the stand in for Stanley Kubrick's handler. So that's I mean,
7:38
Speaker 4: there's a lot of big claims in there, and honestly,
7:40
Speaker 4: Jay Widener's movies that go even deeper into this would
7:43
Speaker 4: take extra episodes just.
7:45
Speaker 5: To talk about.
7:46
Speaker 4: So in fact, I think we're gonna do those ones
7:48
Speaker 4: next after Room two three seven, we'll go even deeper
7:51
Speaker 4: to Jay Widener's stuff. But that overall, that's the moon
7:54
Speaker 4: confession theory sort of in a nutshell, and that's probably
7:58
Speaker 4: the one that most people have heard of when it
8:00
Speaker 4: comes to the shining. Oh no, have you heard of
8:03
Speaker 4: other ones outside that one before watching two three seven? No?
8:06
Speaker 1: I did not.
8:07
Speaker 6: I've only heard like the moonlight, Like that's the only
8:10
Speaker 6: thing that I kind of knew about, but I didn't
8:12
Speaker 6: know how they were going to present it. Yeah, they
8:14
Speaker 6: said they didn't want to use a two seventeen room
8:17
Speaker 6: as it was in the book, because the hotel had
8:20
Speaker 6: expressed that, oh, we don't want people to be scared
8:22
Speaker 6: to stay in that room, but in fact that turned
8:25
Speaker 6: out not to be true.
8:26
Speaker 1: And then the whole room number with two three.
8:30
Speaker 6: Seven when Danny's going by it, like that's where I
8:32
Speaker 6: would if they were just saying that as the moon
8:33
Speaker 6: like oh, you know, spelled backwards in the Ennis Capitol,
8:37
Speaker 6: like I would have been like, I don't know, man,
8:38
Speaker 6: that they wouldn't.
8:39
Speaker 1: Really have got me. That's why the rocket, I think
8:41
Speaker 1: was so important.
8:43
Speaker 4: Well, we're going to get way deeper into that when
8:45
Speaker 4: we start getting into Jay Wagner's documentaries in particular.
8:48
Speaker 5: So the next theory was.
8:51
Speaker 4: That The Shining, again the Stanley Kubrick's version, the Shining,
8:55
Speaker 4: was all about Native American genocide. It was like an
8:58
Speaker 4: allegory for uh, the you know, expansion into the rest
9:03
Speaker 4: of the United States and killing off all the Indians,
9:05
Speaker 4: and that in fact, in the background we actually see
9:09
Speaker 4: all sorts of posters and paintings of these different Native Americans.
9:13
Speaker 4: We even get like a little monologue version of it.
9:15
Speaker 4: They reference these cans of calmet that have like a
9:19
Speaker 4: little Indian chief's head on it, that all of these
9:22
Speaker 4: specifically it's a baking powder, that all those were placed
9:25
Speaker 4: directly to kind of keep reinforcing this entire motif, and
9:31
Speaker 4: that there's this river of blood that comes out of
9:33
Speaker 4: the elevators and like one of the most famous scenes
9:36
Speaker 4: in The Shining, and this is supposed to be seen
9:38
Speaker 4: as the spilling of this innocent blood from the Native Americans,
9:42
Speaker 4: and this constant presence of axes that are on the
9:46
Speaker 4: background too that kind of represent like colonial violence against
9:50
Speaker 4: Native Americans. I mean, he goes equally hard about this
9:53
Speaker 4: particular motif the same way that Jay Widner does about
9:56
Speaker 4: a Moon confession.
9:58
Speaker 6: Yeah, they even go as far as to show the
10:00
Speaker 6: clip of like when the hotel was made and talking
10:03
Speaker 6: about like it was on an an Indian burial ground
10:05
Speaker 6: and that they were even attacked at some point by
10:08
Speaker 6: some of the natives around there, and that the elevators
10:11
Speaker 6: going down was squishing the bodies.
10:15
Speaker 1: The Native Americans and the blood was squirting out everywhere.
10:19
Speaker 4: I mean, I would actually love to see a version
10:22
Speaker 4: of The Shining where that was more in the center,
10:25
Speaker 4: like that was actually what the movie was about, that
10:27
Speaker 4: it was a hotel built on an ancient Native American
10:31
Speaker 4: burial ground that was haunted and squishing bodies on I
10:34
Speaker 4: feel like being more overt about some of these themes
10:38
Speaker 4: could work, like any five of these, honestly. Well, the
10:42
Speaker 4: third one a little bit darker, was that The Shining's
10:45
Speaker 4: all about the Holocaust and that the number forty two
10:48
Speaker 4: in particular keeps coming up. There's one scene where Danny's
10:52
Speaker 4: got it on his shirt, they mentioned the nineteen forty
10:55
Speaker 4: two Volkswagen and nineteen forty two be in the year
10:59
Speaker 4: that the Nazis implement their their final solution, and that
11:03
Speaker 4: everything else that kind of flows out of this is
11:06
Speaker 4: all about Jack being a Nazi. His typewriter is this
11:10
Speaker 4: old German made Adler typewriter, and Adler translates to an eagle,
11:15
Speaker 4: and the eagle was the symbol of the Nazi part.
11:18
Speaker 4: So you again, you can see that every single little
11:21
Speaker 4: detail in this entire movie is being interpreted as, Oh,
11:26
Speaker 4: he's one hundred percent like this guy. And this is
11:29
Speaker 4: Jeffrey Cox that comes up with this theory. By the way,
11:32
Speaker 4: he talks about it again the same way, like this
11:35
Speaker 4: dude is convinced that the Shining by Stanley Kubrick was
11:38
Speaker 4: all about the Holocaust.
11:41
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they even talk about them watching the movie
11:43
Speaker 6: Summer of forty two. I mean, the number does come
11:45
Speaker 6: up a lot, like it's not a coincidence, and all
11:48
Speaker 6: these things aren't coincidence. In general, we don't know why
11:51
Speaker 6: filmmakers do what they do, but it's good points to
11:54
Speaker 6: bring up that. Also, they even have like a part
11:57
Speaker 6: where they're talking about that towards the end of the
11:59
Speaker 6: film when they show the black and white picture with
12:01
Speaker 6: Jack Nicholson and it's fading away that like it fades
12:05
Speaker 6: away to him having a Hitler mustache, right like that.
12:08
Speaker 5: Right right. There's so many too.
12:12
Speaker 4: There's some other examples of that final shot that apparently
12:16
Speaker 4: it was taken from a meeting of people from nineteen
12:20
Speaker 4: thirteen that have to do with the Federal Reserve. There's
12:24
Speaker 4: some interpretations outside this movie, by the way, that the
12:27
Speaker 4: movie's all about sort of greenbacks and the using gold
12:32
Speaker 4: as like a standard for monetary systems, and it just
12:35
Speaker 4: kind of like goes full money masters and certain interpretations
12:38
Speaker 4: of this one. So those first three Moon Confession, Native Americans, Holocaust,
12:44
Speaker 4: those ones are sort of these themes that those three
12:48
Speaker 4: people are suggesting that this movie was all about. And
12:51
Speaker 4: then we've got two other ones in room two thirty
12:54
Speaker 4: seven that it's less about the theme and it's more
12:57
Speaker 4: about like interesting things that Kubrick's doing that are completely
13:01
Speaker 4: breaking away from the norm. And like you were mentioning,
13:05
Speaker 4: there's kind of this common conception that every little detail
13:09
Speaker 4: in the background of a Kubrick movie is all intentional
13:12
Speaker 4: and that he and a lot of that is because
13:15
Speaker 4: he would spend so many different takes. He would do
13:18
Speaker 4: like one hundred takes just trying to get like the
13:20
Speaker 4: perfect one. So that makes people think like, oh, if
13:22
Speaker 4: this dude's doing a hundred takes here and there, then
13:25
Speaker 4: he's gotta, you know, have his kind of like finger
13:27
Speaker 4: on the pulse of exactly what he's trying to get
13:29
Speaker 4: done here. So based on that assumption, and I'm I
13:33
Speaker 4: don't know if I'm even sold on every single detail
13:36
Speaker 4: was always meant. You don't think he made like a
13:38
Speaker 4: single mistake. I don't know, maybe a final release and
13:41
Speaker 4: he's like, oops, I didn't realize we moved that chair.
13:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure.
13:45
Speaker 6: And then you don't know the order of what they
13:47
Speaker 6: shot it in, right, Like they even make a reference
13:50
Speaker 6: towards the dope on the door of Danny's door, you know,
13:54
Speaker 6: and that it's there, then it's gone. We don't know
13:57
Speaker 6: when they shot that, right They could have added it
13:59
Speaker 6: after like not taking it away. We don't know if
14:02
Speaker 6: they shot the first scene. Is movies aren't shot just
14:05
Speaker 6: in order of the movie. I think sometimes people don't
14:08
Speaker 6: realize that too.
14:09
Speaker 4: The Dopey one's another crazy rabbit hole. Basically that when
14:13
Speaker 4: you look at it through the lens of the moon
14:16
Speaker 4: confession by Jay Widner that when Danny goes into the room,
14:20
Speaker 4: originally it has a dopey sticker. We're basically symbolizing Kubrick
14:25
Speaker 4: when he first goes into this you know moon lie
14:28
Speaker 4: that he gets hired to do that. He's an idiot,
14:30
Speaker 4: he doesn't have all the background details.
14:32
Speaker 5: He's dopey.
14:33
Speaker 4: And then when he comes back out of the room,
14:35
Speaker 4: the dopey sticker's missing, which is then taken to imply
14:38
Speaker 4: now he's got the knowledge, he's no longer ignorant of
14:41
Speaker 4: what's going on behind the shadow. That's a whole lot
14:44
Speaker 4: of meaning to be inferred from whether or not a
14:47
Speaker 4: sticker was on a door between two different shots. But again,
14:50
Speaker 4: this is kind of like quintessential Kubrick that people that
14:55
Speaker 4: watch Kubrick are like Nabro like he get I guarantee
14:59
Speaker 4: you that dopey sticker was thereby design He's got in
15:02
Speaker 4: the script. So anyways, the other two things that come
15:06
Speaker 4: up in this Room two thirty seven One is a
15:08
Speaker 4: theory by a lady named Julie Kerns, and she states
15:12
Speaker 4: that if you were to actually try and it's kind
15:15
Speaker 4: of awesome how she does this. If you were to
15:17
Speaker 4: track the movements of all the characters in this movie
15:21
Speaker 4: on a blueprint of the Overlook Hotel representing the shining,
15:25
Speaker 4: that the rooms that they go into can't exist. That
15:28
Speaker 4: they'll go into a room that's got like three windows
15:31
Speaker 4: pointing outside, but in the actual architecture of the building
15:36
Speaker 4: that that would be an interior room. And the same
15:38
Speaker 4: thing is that we see people going in and out
15:40
Speaker 4: of like a big freezer, and that sometimes the freezer
15:43
Speaker 4: exits to one hallway, another time it exits to a
15:45
Speaker 4: different hallway, and that instead of these being oversights or
15:51
Speaker 4: things that were overlooked, that it was actually intended by
15:56
Speaker 4: Kubrick to make the audience disassociate that somewhere in the
16:00
Speaker 4: back of your brain, your brain realizes this doesn't like
16:04
Speaker 4: this is a fantasy world, but you in your conscious
16:07
Speaker 4: state don't recognize that, and you don't understand why it
16:10
Speaker 4: has this ethereal quality to it.
16:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the window is where they talk about that.
16:15
Speaker 6: It also kind of like plays into with the moon stuff,
16:18
Speaker 6: because it's like you're faking sunlight, this whole background of
16:22
Speaker 6: like a different existence, and that you're playing with people's minds.
16:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, starting to blend all the different theories
16:30
Speaker 4: together is where this movie gets fun. The very last
16:33
Speaker 4: one that they really focus on is by a guy
16:36
Speaker 4: named John fell Ryan, and John fell Ryan he actually
16:41
Speaker 4: takes like a much closer to what I would consider
16:43
Speaker 4: like syncro mysticism, and he's basically stating that if you
16:46
Speaker 4: take the Shining and you play one version of it forwards,
16:50
Speaker 4: and then you take another copy of it and you
16:52
Speaker 4: play it backwards at the exact same time, that they
16:55
Speaker 4: converge these different points, and that even in this case,
16:59
Speaker 4: and this is where I have questions, and we don't
17:01
Speaker 4: have John fell Ryan on the show yet. Maybe we'll
17:03
Speaker 4: get him for a future episode and ask him directly.
17:05
Speaker 4: But does this mean that Kubrick himself knew that if
17:10
Speaker 4: you were to play the movie forwards and backwards at
17:12
Speaker 4: the same time, that these different points would converge and
17:16
Speaker 4: mean certain things, or in the synchro mystic community, which
17:20
Speaker 4: I've grown to understand I think is that they're almost
17:24
Speaker 4: saying that Kubrick was just sort of like in tune,
17:27
Speaker 4: he was on the same wavelength as this like accult symbolism,
17:31
Speaker 4: and that he didn't have to inherently intend to make
17:35
Speaker 4: this stuff work. It just worked because he was so
17:38
Speaker 4: accepting and so understanding of the material itself that these
17:42
Speaker 4: patterns just kind of get emphasized by the things that
17:45
Speaker 4: he's doing.
17:46
Speaker 5: To him.
17:46
Speaker 4: It's a weird abstract concept, but that's one that I
17:50
Speaker 4: come around to more than everything's planned, because I don't
17:53
Speaker 4: even know how many hours in the day this dude
17:56
Speaker 4: must have had. Did he find like a forty hour
17:58
Speaker 4: day somehow where he's able to get all this stuff
18:00
Speaker 4: done and all these symbols backed.
18:01
Speaker 6: Then Yeah, and then have all the people and his researcher,
18:05
Speaker 6: research team and other people on part of his team.
18:08
Speaker 6: It's not just him doing these things. Like just like
18:11
Speaker 6: we're intentionally doing this. I like it the idea what
18:13
Speaker 6: you said, Like whether that be the case or not,
18:16
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, you're you're in sync with that feeling
18:20
Speaker 6: and that thought process, not that you're dictating and knowing
18:23
Speaker 6: and have a notebook of like first we're gonna put
18:25
Speaker 6: the dopey here, then I'm gonna put like I think that,
18:29
Speaker 6: Like now it's just happening and kind of like being
18:32
Speaker 6: part of it in his brain is in that realm
18:34
Speaker 6: of thought yeah, but as far as intending each and everything,
18:38
Speaker 6: especially syncing up. Like that's like when people talk about
18:42
Speaker 6: music and they play it backwards and they're like, it's
18:45
Speaker 6: saying this, and I'm like, is it saying that or
18:46
Speaker 6: are you suggesting that it's saying something and they're like, no,
18:49
Speaker 6: they did on purpose, and I'm like, well, they definitely
18:51
Speaker 6: couldn't have done it on purpose because I've made music
18:54
Speaker 6: and I've played it backwards and I'm like, I didn't
18:56
Speaker 6: write anything to like be like, we Well, that's.
18:58
Speaker 5: Because Satan is talking through you, my friend. That's all
19:01
Speaker 5: that means.
19:02
Speaker 6: Yeah, that would make more sense, right, like instead of like, oh,
19:05
Speaker 6: they intended, So I'm with you that it's not necessarily
19:08
Speaker 6: everything's intended.
19:09
Speaker 1: But he's on that bravelean that.
19:11
Speaker 4: Wavelength hidden treasures overboard moments. I mean in this one, honestly,
19:25
Speaker 4: I think the whole entire movie it's kind of a
19:27
Speaker 4: hidden treasure. I really do think that someone that maybe
19:31
Speaker 4: doesn't understand the weird mystique behind Kubrick films, you watched
19:35
Speaker 4: this as one documentary Room two, three seven, and you
19:38
Speaker 4: kind of get a taste for it, and it might
19:41
Speaker 4: even convince you that, yeah, like Kubrick definitely meant to
19:46
Speaker 4: put in some extra symbolism all three, none of them
19:50
Speaker 4: like one of them who I don't really know where
19:52
Speaker 4: I land on any of that. But this is really
19:55
Speaker 4: really a type of documentary that I really like. So,
19:58
Speaker 4: I mean, the whole thing is a hit and treasure
20:00
Speaker 4: for me here hearing someone else watch it for the
20:03
Speaker 4: first time and been like, man, I never heard this
20:05
Speaker 4: theory about the Native American.
20:06
Speaker 5: Even if you don't believe it.
20:07
Speaker 4: I still think that it's like beyond fascinating, and.
20:11
Speaker 6: It's put together very well, like in actually putting shots
20:15
Speaker 6: and putting shots of other movies.
20:17
Speaker 1: They even bring in like.
20:18
Speaker 6: Some of his other movies that he has done that
20:21
Speaker 6: we people have concepts and thoughts on as well, like
20:24
Speaker 6: reference points, and like even when they talk about some
20:27
Speaker 6: of this moonlanding stuff, I thought it was interesting how
20:29
Speaker 6: they go, look.
20:29
Speaker 1: There was tang like you know what I mean. They're
20:31
Speaker 1: thorough whether you believe it or not.
20:33
Speaker 6: They present a compelling case for a lot of these theories,
20:37
Speaker 6: some more than others, I will say, but I think
20:40
Speaker 6: that it opens your mind to like, man, who is Kubrick,
20:43
Speaker 6: And it kind of paints him in a great picture
20:45
Speaker 6: and a dark and great picture like this man they
20:48
Speaker 6: Leaven tell well, I think they say the man with
20:50
Speaker 6: the two hundred IQ you know what I mean, Like
20:53
Speaker 6: that he's out thinking of us.
20:54
Speaker 1: It's almost that three D chest thing.
20:57
Speaker 4: Sixty eight's on sixty two hundred and thirty seventy. He's
21:00
Speaker 4: playing at and for me, really overboard moments was hard.
21:05
Speaker 4: I had to go and I looked around for the
21:07
Speaker 4: biggest criticisms of this documentary, all of those one stars
21:11
Speaker 4: out there, and man, I didn't realize how controversial this
21:16
Speaker 4: documentary was, especially for like Kubrick Officionados. And I guess
21:21
Speaker 4: the main criticism that usually comes up with this movie
21:25
Speaker 4: is that Asher doesn't necessarily step in and provide his
21:30
Speaker 4: own commentary on whether or not some of these other
21:33
Speaker 4: people's interpretations are valid or not, or which one's right.
21:36
Speaker 4: And honestly, I think that kind of criticism is completely
21:39
Speaker 4: missing the mark of all this This will be like
21:42
Speaker 4: opening up a Witman's sampler again, one of my favorite
21:46
Speaker 4: analogies here, open up the women's sampler, trying out five
21:49
Speaker 4: and being like numbers one through four were wrong. That's
21:54
Speaker 4: not how a Witman's sampler works, right, you might find
21:57
Speaker 4: the ones that you most prefer, but it's not like
22:00
Speaker 4: one of them is wrong unless it's one of those
22:02
Speaker 4: weird like jelly bean tricks where like one of them
22:04
Speaker 4: tastes like vomit or something, if you know, talking about
22:07
Speaker 4: but like you know this movie, it's it's not like
22:11
Speaker 4: a trick question. It really just will open your mind
22:14
Speaker 4: up to next time you watch The Shining, you'll probably
22:17
Speaker 4: never be able to watch it the same way again.
22:19
Speaker 4: So I and all, I think that's like the biggest
22:22
Speaker 4: hidden treasure, any documentary that changes the way that you
22:26
Speaker 4: see something the next time you see it. I think
22:28
Speaker 4: that it's it's almost impossible to plan to do that.
22:31
Speaker 4: It only happens when it's legitimately good.
22:35
Speaker 6: I didn't really have any overboard moments, because I know
22:37
Speaker 6: they had thoughts of like like the dope you thing
22:40
Speaker 6: I keep referencing, like, but I could see they have
22:44
Speaker 6: a compelling case, Like I don't agree with all their theories,
22:47
Speaker 6: but I'm like, well that it's logical to me, right, Like, Okay,
22:50
Speaker 6: I could see where you can't.
22:51
Speaker 1: It's not something just thrown out the dark, you know
22:53
Speaker 1: what I mean?
22:53
Speaker 6: Like of oh, you're like I could see something because
22:56
Speaker 6: a lot of this stuff is planned, right, like as
22:59
Speaker 6: far as we don't know what he meant. Dope, he
23:01
Speaker 6: could be just a sign like hey, it's for my kid,
23:03
Speaker 6: or it's like, you know, we don't know what it means,
23:05
Speaker 6: but it means something. These different things like the chair coming,
23:08
Speaker 6: the chair gone, Like they even talk about when she
23:12
Speaker 6: walks into the room and kind of like with the
23:14
Speaker 6: skeletons in the blue room with the skeletons and the
23:17
Speaker 6: spider webs, kind of like poking fun out of like
23:20
Speaker 6: how horrors were really like comical back in the days,
23:24
Speaker 6: and then go into one of the more horrific scenes.
23:27
Speaker 1: Right, that's like kind of intense for people.
23:29
Speaker 6: I think this film all overall, I can't find a
23:33
Speaker 6: lot of things to like pull out it. Like, yeah,
23:35
Speaker 6: I could be critical and be like, hey you should
23:37
Speaker 6: have you know, came out this way more. I kind
23:40
Speaker 6: of just liked how we played it and let me
23:43
Speaker 6: think for myself, like do I is that it? And
23:46
Speaker 6: you know, is he trying to paint this Native American thing?
23:49
Speaker 6: Is it a bunch of different themes layered up and
23:51
Speaker 6: or are is it just us analyzing it to death
23:55
Speaker 6: and we're coming up with something well, I would.
23:58
Speaker 4: Point out like three very specific claims. They usually get
24:02
Speaker 4: brought up when it comes to the shining and whether
24:06
Speaker 4: or not Kubrick was doing something intentionally.
24:08
Speaker 5: The first one.
24:10
Speaker 4: Is the direction that the Indian is facing and all
24:13
Speaker 4: those damn baking powder cans, Like do you think that
24:17
Speaker 4: Kubrick was like make sure they're all pointing to the
24:19
Speaker 4: left in this scene, and make sure that they're all
24:22
Speaker 4: pointing like the same way and there's no do you
24:24
Speaker 4: think that that's something that he specifically wanted to happen?
24:29
Speaker 6: I don't know, because they want to say that everything
24:31
Speaker 6: was specifically. But if you've ever been on a set
24:33
Speaker 6: or know about sets and things of that, there's so
24:36
Speaker 6: many people involved, right, Like I could see that he
24:39
Speaker 6: wants certain shots like hey, I want.
24:41
Speaker 1: This are or not? Like for instance, when the chair
24:43
Speaker 1: was there or not there?
24:44
Speaker 6: Who knows when they filmed it, right like someone be like,
24:46
Speaker 6: hey I need to sit down, you know what I mean?
24:48
Speaker 6: They move the chair because someone needed to use it, Like,
24:51
Speaker 6: we don't know why those things are. I think some
24:54
Speaker 6: things are intentional for sure, like the shirt, the sweater.
24:57
Speaker 6: That's why that one resonated with me. Because the sweat better.
25:00
Speaker 6: You're like you had to specifically go get an Apollo
25:04
Speaker 6: eleven sweater, that there's no need that you needed that.
25:08
Speaker 4: And he stands up in a very specific way so
25:10
Speaker 4: it looks like it's launching. It's not just a kid
25:13
Speaker 4: getting up off the ground, which they'd probably kind of
25:16
Speaker 4: push off with their hands and like obscure, like they'll
25:19
Speaker 4: just yeah, there's so many. And I guess the other
25:21
Speaker 4: one I was gonna mention where the chairs, that there's
25:24
Speaker 4: this argument made that in the background, you'll see a
25:28
Speaker 4: shot and then it'll cut somewhere else and it'll go
25:30
Speaker 4: back to that same shot, and now a chair that
25:33
Speaker 4: was in the background is no longer there, or a
25:35
Speaker 4: bookcase that was in the background it's like a different bookcase,
25:38
Speaker 4: or there's.
25:38
Speaker 5: All these like very tiny little changes.
25:41
Speaker 4: And one of the explanations that he again he's intentionally
25:45
Speaker 4: trying to mess with your subconscious mind that something in
25:49
Speaker 4: like in your the backyar head realizes like, oh, this
25:52
Speaker 4: isn't reality because that chair's missing, even if you don't
25:55
Speaker 4: notice it while you're watching it. So I really do
25:58
Speaker 4: think it's fascinating. That's that's the the whole point of
26:00
Speaker 4: Room two three seven is to make you wonder how
26:04
Speaker 4: much of this stuff was intentional? All right, give me
26:12
Speaker 4: the sink or swim on this one, Room two three seven.
26:15
Speaker 6: Swim all the way man. For a first time watcher man,
26:18
Speaker 6: it was great. It was like I was riveted, like
26:20
Speaker 6: you know, because it's not I love rewatching some of them,
26:23
Speaker 6: but when you get a fresh late it's great.
26:26
Speaker 1: I like the film. I like them going in the quality.
26:29
Speaker 6: I actually watch it on tub you know what I mean,
26:30
Speaker 6: so you could watch it for free, and the quality
26:33
Speaker 6: is great. I like how they you know, steam cut
26:37
Speaker 6: and kind of when they're talking about a scene and
26:39
Speaker 6: showing you it really represents and you can get into
26:41
Speaker 6: it more and see exactly what they're talking about and
26:44
Speaker 6: just saying like, oh, there was this in the scene,
26:47
Speaker 6: like you know, the Native Americans on the baking soda
26:49
Speaker 6: or the tang. If they would just say that, but
26:52
Speaker 6: actually talking about it and showing me the scenes of
26:55
Speaker 6: the film, it broke it down, even like the map
26:57
Speaker 6: that they broke down when they're showing like, hey, she
26:59
Speaker 6: couldn't have when she's walking down this hall, it couldn't
27:02
Speaker 6: have been a window there. Like it's very thorough. It's
27:05
Speaker 6: not something that's loosely just thrown together. People really put
27:09
Speaker 6: some thought into it. Now me personally, do I think
27:12
Speaker 6: every single thing that Kubrick has is in the film
27:15
Speaker 6: is intended to like, hey, here's a secret message. No,
27:18
Speaker 6: but I do think there is a lot of hidden
27:20
Speaker 6: messages in his films. And they painted it great and
27:23
Speaker 6: I'm looking forward to the next couple.
27:27
Speaker 4: It was surprised that it's a swim for me too.
27:30
Speaker 4: It's one of my favorite documentaries. I would consider this
27:34
Speaker 4: a normy documentary. This is not in the same category
27:38
Speaker 4: as Zeitgeist or Money Masters, or like an Alex Jones.
27:41
Speaker 4: This is something that you could legitimately slip into movie
27:44
Speaker 4: night without.
27:45
Speaker 5: Anyone being like, all right, who's the wise guy who
27:48
Speaker 5: put the Alex Jones movie in the movie night? That
27:51
Speaker 5: doesn't happen.
27:52
Speaker 4: This is very normy friendly and it could open a
27:55
Speaker 4: few people up to getting into like the more niche
27:58
Speaker 4: kind of stuff that Again, We're going to follow this
28:01
Speaker 4: up and watch some of Jay Weidner's documentaries and really
28:05
Speaker 4: get like a full dose of the whole Moon Confession theory.
28:09
Speaker 5: And I mean, I'll leave it on on my observation too.
28:11
Speaker 5: About the Stanley Kubrick thing.
28:13
Speaker 4: Maybe a bad analogy, but it would almost be like
28:17
Speaker 4: watching a jazz musician and if you're in the audience
28:21
Speaker 4: and thinking, like, man, this guy's going all over the place.
28:24
Speaker 4: He's playing all these weird different notes, but somehow they
28:26
Speaker 4: still work with this song. I bet he planned out
28:29
Speaker 4: every single note that he was going.
28:32
Speaker 5: To play, like it not. Really.
28:35
Speaker 4: The thing is that the jazz musician, especially improv jazz,
28:40
Speaker 4: understands the rules of the modes and.
28:42
Speaker 5: The scales that he's working in.
28:44
Speaker 4: He understands a tempo, and he understands time signatures and
28:47
Speaker 4: understands chord progressions and like how to do diminished sevens,
28:51
Speaker 4: like he understands music theory. And because he understands music theory,
28:55
Speaker 4: he can kind of dance around and have everything work
28:58
Speaker 4: out like it still works with the song because the
29:01
Speaker 4: song is like following the same theory that he is
29:04
Speaker 4: on his own little thread. So I kind of feel
29:06
Speaker 4: that way about Stanley Kubrick, that he doesn't have to
29:09
Speaker 4: decide that chair is going to be in one scene
29:12
Speaker 4: and then missing the next scene, but maybe it just
29:14
Speaker 4: happens because he's not concerned with that. And even if
29:18
Speaker 4: he does notice it, maybe he thinks like, oh, this
29:20
Speaker 4: will add to like a weird subliminal feeling of unrest.
29:23
Speaker 4: And I don't know. I don't even guess to know
29:26
Speaker 4: what he was thinking. I think my IQ is closer
29:29
Speaker 4: to like twenty than two hundred, so you probably that's
29:32
Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't haven't choked on my tongue yet,
29:34
Speaker 4: so that's probably not true. But strong double digits at
29:37
Speaker 4: least I would put myself in, but nowhere near the
29:40
Speaker 4: level of Kubrick. So I don't feel qualified to know
29:44
Speaker 4: whether or not this anything. But man, this movie definitely
29:48
Speaker 4: gives you a lot to talk about. So next time
29:50
Speaker 4: Kubrick comes up, you'll probably be able to introduce someone
29:54
Speaker 4: to new theories that they haven't heard of just by
29:56
Speaker 4: watching this movie.
29:58
Speaker 6: Water Crewler talk right, And I think as artists, because
30:01
Speaker 6: you in the artistry and I'm in the artistry of
30:04
Speaker 6: different types of art, but I think we get a
30:06
Speaker 6: better understanding of how the artist mind works. And I
30:08
Speaker 6: think sometimes when people are getting into the artist's mind
30:12
Speaker 6: and they've never dived into that.
30:14
Speaker 1: They don't really know anything.
30:15
Speaker 6: They don't do music or art or movies or anything
30:19
Speaker 6: in those fields.
30:20
Speaker 1: So they kind of just go, well, he has to
30:22
Speaker 1: be you know what I mean.
30:23
Speaker 6: And I think when you see it through the eyes
30:24
Speaker 6: of an artist, you're like, yeah, some things are definitely intentional.
30:28
Speaker 6: That's a fact because you're trying to get a message
30:30
Speaker 6: across and subliminals are in there. But for everything to
30:34
Speaker 6: be that, I find it far fetch. But this film great.
30:38
Speaker 6: It's now on my favorite list for sure.
30:42
Speaker 4: Yeah, ilet'd say Kubrick doesn't accidentally make good movies. I'd
30:45
Speaker 4: at least go as far to say that. So there's
30:49
Speaker 4: definitely some design put into this. So and like we
30:58
Speaker 4: mentioned before, we're going to be good going into Jay
31:01
Speaker 4: Widner's Kubrick Squared series and he's going to talk about
31:07
Speaker 4: all the like weird little details that were probably too
31:10
Speaker 4: overboard for this particular Room two three seven documentary. So
31:14
Speaker 4: I'm excited about those ones. Look out for that man.
31:17
Speaker 7: This has been another episode Under the Docks, Peace, under the.
31:28
Speaker 2: Dukes, Yeah, Under the Ducks were breaking the looks funny
31:37
Speaker 2: shot Under the Dukes, Under the Dukes, Yeah, Under the Ducks,
31:59
Speaker 2: Under the Dog.
32:11
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32:14
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32:18
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33:20
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33:23
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33:26
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33:33
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33:36
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33:40
Speaker 8: dot com.
33:43
Speaker 10: Oh Life Screwed, My Life Away Driven. The rake page
33:54
Speaker 10: will in light to bray give you the flight. We're
33:56
Speaker 10: playing paper that has a blaze, So what lla amazing feel?
34:01
Speaker 1: When it's real?
34:01
Speaker 10: The real You will engage in your favorite The Posset,
34:04
Speaker 10: The Lord of being arrangement of gauging the proper results
34:07
Speaker 10: to hit the pavement.
34:08
Speaker 4: If they get emotional hate.
34:10
Speaker 1: May be your language the game.
34:11
Speaker 10: How they playing it well without lake because evading whatever
34:15
Speaker 10: the costs, they are the shape ship thinks get to
34:17
Speaker 10: cappeltated that it's the apex executional flame. You walk lookular bombs,
34:22
Speaker 10: distributedy war.
34:24
Speaker 1: Rather crusome for eyes to see.
34:26
Speaker 10: Maxim out that I like my trees blowing off in
34:29
Speaker 10: the face. You're despising me for what though calculated, the
34:32
Speaker 10: rather cut throat heery Lord American must be all the
34:35
Speaker 10: blunt spoke for real, Lord, give me your day, your way,
34:38
Speaker 10: vacate They wait around that hate whatever they say, Man,
34:42
Speaker 10: it's not in the least bit we get heavy rotate
34:45
Speaker 10: when the beat hits some things because.
34:46
Speaker 1: You well for uncle niggas for real, you welcome.
34:50
Speaker 2: They ain't never.
34:50
Speaker 3: Had a deal.
34:51
Speaker 10: You welcome, man, they lacking a pill.
34:54
Speaker 1: You welcome, yet they doing It's still You're welcome.