Latest / The Father's Business Podcast / Summer Series: Safe in the Father's Heart-The Journey of Forgiveness

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Summer Series: Safe in the Father's Heart-The Journey of Forgiveness · The Father's Business Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: The Father's Business was founded by Sylvia Gunter to encourage people to a deeper relationship with God.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: I'm Elizabeth Gunter Powell.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: And I am Kimberly Roddy.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Father's Business Podcast.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: We are so glad that you've joined us.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Welcome back everybody to the Father's Business Podcast.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Kimberly and I are so glad you've joined us.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Today we're going to continue our summer series, which is a re-release of our Safe in the Father's Heart series that we recorded a couple of years ago.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: This is episode three, and we're talking about something that touches every one of us forgiveness and release.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Whether you're the one who needs to forgive or the one who's hoping to be forgiven, this conversation isn't just about resolving conflict.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: It's about finding freedom.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Which is hard, right yeah it's very.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: It's hard when we need to forgive and it's hard when we need to be forgiven.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Forgiveness is one of the most misunderstood and yet most life-changing parts of our walk with God.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Actually, it's not a feeling, it's not pretending like nothing happened, and it's not about just letting people off the hook.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: It's about truly letting go so you can be free.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Isaiah 61.1 says God came to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives, release from darkness for the prisoners.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Unforgiveness keeps us locked in a prison of pain, but forgiveness opens the door to freedom.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: It definitely does that, kimberly.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: But this is also some pretty tender territory because oftentimes it's hard to think about forgiving a person because you've been so deeply hurt by your parent, by a friend, by our leader or even some people in the church Like we all have had those times when we've been deeply wounded by someone else and it often feels like if I forgive them, then I'm saying what they did is okay.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: And that's not what we're saying at all.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: And we're also not going to rush anyone to move to forgiveness.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: We're not offering easy answers.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: These are not going to just be trite solutions of how do you let go and forgive someone.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: We are inviting you to take one step towards healing by starting the conversation about forgiveness.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: And because all of that is true, elizabeth, specifically in this episode we're going to talk about what forgiveness is and what it isn't.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: We're going to unpack resentment, control boundaries and even the courage to say God, I don't feel like forgiving, but I trust you to help me do it.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Colossians 3.13 reminds us to forgive as the Lord forgave you, and it's not easy, but I think when I think about that truth of that verse, I am almost compelled to step into forgiveness when God leads me there.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: That's so true, kimberly.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: So in this episode we're going to hear stories of forgiving parents who have abandoned us.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: That's my mom's story.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: There are people that we have to forgive who are no longer living, and so how do you forgive someone who's not there, present in front of you, and even learning to release our expectations of God himself and ways that we've kind of held judgment against God for how he has treated us?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: And these aren't theoretical ideas, this is real life hard work that we all have to do.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: As we like to say, forgiveness is more about freeing your own heart than changing someone else's behavior.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: So, again, all of this is it's just hard work, but it's real work.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: It's deep work and, for anyone who's sitting with the weight of being the one who caused the hurt, this episode will also offer hope to you as well.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Humility, repentance and time can often lead to restoration.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Repentance and time can often lead to restoration, even if reconciliation takes a different path.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Remember that Romans 12, 18 says if it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone among you.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: So, whether you're holding resentment or regret, we pray this conversation meets you with grace.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: May it gently guide you towards release into the arms of a father who forgives fully and completely.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: So listen now to episode three of Safe in the Father's Heart Forgiveness and Release.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Well, welcome back to our series on Safe in the Father's Heart.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: This is week three.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: We are going to be talking about forgiveness and release.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Nelson Mandela once said resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Pretty powerful quote, and I think Elizabeth, your mom, she shared that quote in this book because of her story.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So kind of catch us up a little bit on where her story is here.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: So, like mom's already shared in her story, she's a junior in college home for Christmas and watches her dad pack up his car and drive away with no goodbye and never to be seen again.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: And so I think, for one, my mom was focused on her mom and the devastation that she was going through as she was going through a divorce and trying to make sure her younger brother was also okay, and so mom has told me that, you know, she just decided that if she didn't have to acknowledge it, if she didn't feel it, if she didn't think about it, if she just kind of pushed it off to the side, then she could just get on with life, she could create the family that she'd always wanted, she'd marry a man that was different than her dad and she would create this whole new family system that would give her what she never had, and that probably worked for a while.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: But there did come a day, about 10 years into her marriage, where she happened to be at a Christian conference where they were talking about forgiveness, where she realized that she still had all that resentment and it wasn't poisoning her dad, like the quote says.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: It was poisoning her, and so she had to come to a point where she was willing to be honest with God and pour out all of that to him about how she felt, about the way her father had treated her throughout her life and then leaving with no forwarding address when she's a junior in college, and so it really is a very tough subject to talk about, because there's been some really deep wounds that we've been through.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and when I think about resentment, it's kind of complex.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: It's a layered emotion.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: It can be a mixture of disappointment, anger, frustration, disgust.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Typically, when we're at a place of needing to forgive, it's because we've had a deep emotion.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: On the other side, We've had deep hurt, and often hurt is combined with anger, frustration, and that's what resentment is.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Resentment is a is a multi-layered, complex, deeper emotion, sentiment or emotion that has all those things mixed in with it, Right and so, um, we have a tendency to to.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: If we don't deal with the initial hurt, it becomes anger, it becomes resentment, it becomes bitterness and it just, it festers and it grows and we have a choice where we acknowledge it or we bury it, or we run from it and we cope with it in whatever ways that we can.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: But we all get to a place in our lives where we need to forgive.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Um, that's.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: None of us are.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: We're not immune to having to forgive or be forgiven, even Right, Um and and so when something has been done to us, we, we typically think, well, we can just get over it, but that's when we start feeling that bitterness or resentment.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: I think that's a check for us, and so maybe that's a place in in your life right now or in my life where we have to go, okay, am I?
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: You kind of have to gauge yourself.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Am I feeling any resentment towards someone or something you know what?
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: And have a check there of what's going on and ask ourselves is there someone or something that I need to forgive, forgiving someone for something they've done?
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think oftentimes the way I discover it is, someone else comes and does something similar and the reaction is way bigger than it should be.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of like if you stubbed your toe and then someone else stepped on your toe.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: You would scream louder than someone just accidentally stepping on your toe because your toe is wounded.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: And so I think oftentimes that's, I mean, sadly.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: That's what it takes for me to realize.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Wait a minute, there's something more going on here and I am spewing something towards this person that really has nothing to do with them.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: So there's some hurt, there's some wounding, some resentment or something is below the surface, but for some of us we don't want to look at things and we don't want to think about forgiving them, because the wound was severe, I mean, it was abuse, it was trauma, it's a deep place and it's kind of hard to go back and revisit those places, and so it's just easier.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: You know the example I've always used with people.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you can take a beach ball and hold it under the water for a while and pretend like it's not there, but eventually that beach ball is going to come to the surface because that's what I mean it's full of air, so it wants to be lighter than the water, and so I think it's better, if we can, to take the time to slow down and go okay, jesus, where am I holding onto resentment?
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Where, where's an area where I need to work on forgiveness, rather than waiting for that explosion to happen?
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: And then you're like, oh wow, there's a wound that needs some, some attention.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it will.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: It will come out sideways.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: That's that's often what I hear, you know, in the emotional circles, emotional health circles is that idea of if it's not dealt with directly, it'll come out sideways.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: And it's it's going to come out because eventually it's going to get hit.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: We can talk about why we need to forgive, what happens to us that causes us to need to forgive, and then I think we also need to talk about, like, what is forgiveness and what's forgiveness not.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I think the reality is is that we none of us feel totally secure and safe in this world because we have hurts.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, the very title of this book is safe in the father's heart because we're trying to direct us to where is safety.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Safety is found in God, our father, but not all of us feel heart because we're trying to direct us to where is safety.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Safety is found in God, our father, but not all of us feel that, because we have wounds, we have hurts, we have disappointments, and so when we experience hurt, when we experience disillusionment, disappointment, we need to forgive.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: How would you define forgiveness?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Well, first, I would define forgiveness by what it's not.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: It's not saying what you did was okay.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: It's not saying I trust you completely to be a safe person in my life again.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: But what I see forgiveness as is.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: It's a choice I have to make to not hold you let's say, kimberly, that you had hurt me in some way.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I am choosing not to be judge and jury over you and I am choosing not to hold you in contempt for what you've done to me, and it and it's really about getting my own heart set free, more so than your behavior changing, because I can forgive you and I would hope that would lead to change in a healthy relationship moving forward.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: But sometimes we have to forgive people that are not going to change.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's where it gets really hard, because sometimes I don't want to forgive.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't want to let that person off the hook, because I'm watching their life, I'm watching their actions and in my mind I'm thinking I'm going to forgive them, but they're going to keep acting the same way.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it's.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: That's what I think makes it so tough.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: But really, I mean, at its core, forgiveness is more about my heart than the person who's offended me.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: It's about saying to God God, I'm going to let you be in charge, and that, honestly, is my.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Other reason why I don't like forgiveness is because I have a control issue problem and I want to be the one to make sure justice gets done, and sometimes we have to forgive people or situations or institutions or whatever, and we never see the justice, and that's really hard.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's really hard.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: I had a friend who was talking to me one time and just said Kimberly, I have this, this picture's coming to mind as we're talking and she said I feel like you are.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: The picture I have is that you're wrapped up like a mummy and we were talking about forgiveness and unforgiveness actually, really, and I can tell you right where I was standing when she said that you know and you remember those moments where that was such a clear picture to me of that's what not forgiving someone looks like it, looks like me being trapped.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm bound.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and what's so ironic about that is I don't want to forgive someone because it I feel like it gives me power and I'm being, yeah, I'm, I'm the, I'm the judge and I'm going to decide when you've done enough to be forgiven or not.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: But, honestly, what it does is it gives the one who offended me power, because I am so wrapped up, I am that mummy, I don't have freedom and I'm allowing that person to have that level of control over my heart because I'm not choosing to forgive.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what are some of those destructive consequences when we choose not to forgive that you think happen in our lives?
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: I think we quickly build walls of self-protection that it's not just against that person.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: We start building them against everybody and over time, you can cut yourself off from the body of Christ and the community that God designed you to be a part of, because you're living in fear and all of your energy is focused on this wounded part of you that you're trying to protect, versus being able to live open and freely.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I think it also impacts your relationship with God, because when you're so focused on the resentment and the need for justice and I just need justice to rain down on these people that doesn't leave you with a heart of gratitude, of worship, of love, of all the things that you need to be able to experience in your relationship with God.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: You and I both, elizabeth, have a strong sense of justice within us and that can often be like you're alluding to.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: That can be my driving force at times, rather than freedom, and it's interesting because we think if we're chasing, like you said, we think if we're chasing justice and we're making people pay because we're not actually going, I'm going to make them pay.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we are.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I've said that before.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's more passive, aggressive right, like sometimes it's more of, but in that, like you said, we feel like we're in charge, we feel like we're in control, we're in the driver's seat, but in that, like you said, we feel like we're in charge, we feel like we're in control.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: We're in the driver's seat, but in actuality we're trapped.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: It is absorbing my mind, my thoughts, it's absorbing my energy, like I can't get done what I need to get done.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: It absorbs our time, all of our resources, emotional, spiritual, physical, mental, everything right, social.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: It absorbs that because we're trapped, and so I think sometimes we're afraid to forgive because, as we said earlier, it feels like then we're just excusing it, we're just letting it go, just let it go and sometimes that feels really I don't want to.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: But it's not.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Forgiveness is not minimizing or excusing the wrong.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: It's not saying it was no big deal.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: It's not saying I don't have to think about this again.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: It is also not welcoming that person back into your life If they're not if they're not a safe person.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Forgiving them and setting a healthy boundary of how you can and cannot interact with them is two very different things, Right, Right.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: So, there's I've had situations like that where it's like, yes, I forgive you, and that person's like, great, then we can go back to the relationship we had before, and I'm like, no, we can't, because we're toxic together and so we we, we don't need to have until we both have some healing.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: We don't need to go back into this same circle again, where it's highly likely that you're going to hurt me again, but I not going to walk around with resentment in my heart towards you.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: I'm just choosing to set a boundary for myself.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Right, and that's a hard concept.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: The quote on page 25 says there are times when we may need to forgive a person but not be fully reconciled back to them.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: You know, my primary vocation is mediation, conflict resolution, and there are not always ways to resolve the conflict.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's we have to figure out how to manage the conflict.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: That's a tough question Like what does it look like to forgive someone and not be fully reconciled to them?
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Kimberly, I think that is a case by case basis.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of I won't go into all the details, but I'm thinking through a few different scenarios in my mind.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I have some people that I can email them, but I don't talk to them on the phone or see them in person.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: There's other people that I have just had to say you know what?
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: I've watched your behavior over years.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Your behavior is not changing.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: You want me back in your life because it benefits you, not because it's a mutual beneficial relationship, and so I've just had to say I can't be in a relationship with you.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I release you, I forgive you, but this is not healthy and they didn't particularly like it.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: But eventually they got the clue and they stopped trying to call me and email me, and that's.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I mean.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I love the fact that we have caller ID on our phones.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: You don't have to answer just because they call.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: For each situation also, where you are in your own healing, how strong are you?
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: How much healing have you done?
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Are you able to stand up for, if not yourself, jesus in you?
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: When someone is speaking to you in a way that's abusive, then maybe you need to engage that, to learn how to stand up to that person and have a way forward.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: But if you're not at a place where you're ready to do that, I think that's okay too Right, and I think some of that directly goes into what we say a lot, which is knowing who God is and knowing who you are in him.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Like being able to work through a healing journey which can take time and we don't get to define the time yeah, but being able to walk through a journey where you know who you are, without the definition of that person's hurt on you, Right.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: And so people in our culture today talk a lot about boundaries, and we can, I believe that we can take boundaries too far, but I don't want to not take boundaries far enough.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Because that that does harm too.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: And so there there is a place where reconciliation may not happen.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: But I think sometimes in our Southern culture, various cultures and those pockets that we live in, there's an element to which it's like oh, let's, let's make this, we have to be okay, we have to.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: And a lot of times that just becomes pretend, like oh, let's make this okay, we have to be okay.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: We have to, and a lot of times that just becomes pretend right, it just becomes fake, it's not authentic Right, and then it's you're fostering fake and inauthentic relationships, and then that also breaks down your trust and your ability to know how to trust, your ability to define yourself and know who you really are and as a daughter or son of the king, and so that gets layered and confusing too.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: So we don't have to push for reconciliation at all costs.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Let's look at scripture and read places where Jesus talks about how he's the reconciler between God and man, and it's a complicated conversation and we have a lot of hurt.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: A lot of people have experienced abuse and layers of that that have been traumatic and difficult, and so sometimes I think the biggest piece to forgiving but not being reconciled is sometimes just your posture.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: By that I mean if I can choose to forgive you even though I may not be able to be reconciled to you, I am putting myself in a better position with the Lord and relationally with you.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: So if I look at my relationship with the Lord as the vertical lifeline right, and then there's a horizontal piece of where that lifeline flows out.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Then I put myself in a position where vertically I can say because Christ has forgiven me and I have experienced great forgiveness, then I can forgive you, but I may not yet be ready to be reconciled to you, and that's okay.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: But I'm positionally, I'm not bound up any further.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: There's ways to work through reconciliation.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: There's layers of reconciliation.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: It's not the first step, like okay, I forgave you and now I'll reconcile you.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: There's repair that has to happen.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: There's rebuilding, and I think we jump too fast to reconciliation without recognizing repair and rebuilding are two other things that have to happen before that and it's okay to give ourselves time to do that.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: So there's a choice to forgive, forgiveness is a choice and it's a hard choice.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: But when we take that choice, as we take that choice, reconciliation looks different, and so we can't just say this is what it looks like for everyone, and I just think people need to hear that message.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: If you're being encouraged to reconcile, it's okay to wrestle with that a little bit, and I don't want people to feel like they've got to jump to that.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: The phrase that kind of stuck out in this chapter to me is, as my mom was talking about, being unforgiveness causing her to be captive to old pain.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: And you'll remember, even in that first chapter where she read that she's driving down the road, she's like I refuse to be a prisoner for war that ended 50 years ago.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: I've seen that even in my own life.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: This is many, many years ago.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: But there was a situation that was very hurtful, that God brought healing and then I began to use it when I was speaking places as a as a testimony of this is how God healed something.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: But I caught myself because I would always say, well, just a year or two ago, but it happened.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: And one time I finally caught myself and I realized what I was talking about, as if it just happened a year or so ago, had happened 10 years ago, and I had to kind of sit down in the middle of my own talk with Jesus and have Jesus go.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, you've forgiven some, but you're still holding on to some resentment because you're still, you're stuck in time.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: It feels to you like it happened a year ago and it happened 10 years ago, and so I think that's another part of that rebuild and repair is.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: I made the choice to forgive this person, but there's it's a continual process to allow that stuff to be healed and until we do, we will be stuck in time.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: And I mean, who wants that?
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: You know, jesus is the I am.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: He's.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: You know he's not the I was, and so I want to be where Jesus is in the present tense, although he's, you know, yesterday, today and forever.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: But I want to be living with him in the present of what he's trying to show me, versus carrying around this heavy baggage of something that happened 10 years ago.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: That feels like it happened yesterday.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: And what I also realized in that moment is the person who had hurt me had moved on Like it.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: It felt like 10 years ago to the person who hurt me.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I'm the one who stuck.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I'm the one who's still feeling like, oh, that was just a year ago and it's fresh and so it really is as we.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: We've already kind of already said this.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: But it's the freedom God wants to give us.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: And it's so hard because I am a person that is motivated by my feelings and what feels good and oftentimes I don't feel like forgiving someone.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is so hard.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: When you don't, it's like you know.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: I know I need to forgive this person, but I don't feel like doing it, and that's where it's just got to be a choice.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I know I need to forgive this person, but I don't feel like doing it, and that's where it's just got to be a choice and hopefully the feelings come along later and some of these situations I'm alluding to, I can think of those people now and I have no ill will towards them, no resentment, no, nothing.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: I hope God is working in their lives and doing great things, and so it's the ability to really truly find your own healing and let God deal with that.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: That's God's job, what he does or does not do with that other person.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the other side to that that I've sometimes felt in other situations is I can't not forgive, because there's times in other situations where I am feeling and facing and living the effects of the unforgiveness and you get to a point where that's so exhausting that it's like I can't not forgive, I have to, I have to forgive.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: And you know that leads to kind of a piece of my story too, which is like what's it look like to forgive someone who's no longer with you?
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: It's hard, it's just these are different kinds of hard.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: But it's hard to forgive someone that you have to still see around or that you still have to be around in some settings or whatever.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Right, it's a little bit easier sometimes when you can have distance from them.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: But, then it's also not easier, because there was a season in my life where I felt like, after my dad passed away, that I needed to forgive him.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: And that was a tough season, because he's not here, right, and I can't just practice all these principles of I'm going to go to you and I'm going to acknowledge the hurt and we're going to talk through it and we're going to.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to no-transcript whatever.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: We're not going to have some beautiful reconciliation.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: He's not here, but part of that was what I needed to forgive.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Like there's, he's my dad.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Part of this book is talking about how there's.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: We all have some wounds based on our relationships with our fathers and for me, just by virtue of my father dying at the age of 52, I felt abandoned.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Now let's just be clear.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: My dad, he did not intend to abandon me.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: That was his story.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: That I mean.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: I can't make sense of it all and God has helped me let go of trying to make sense of a lot of that.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: But what I do know is that, experientially, there were some things relationally that I needed to work through with him that were left undone because we didn't get to finish everything.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: But then there were other pieces where it was just like my dad's gone and I'm sad and I'm angry, and I'm angry and I'm mad.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I'm mad that he left, I'm mad that he died, I'm mad that and I'm mad that God didn't fix it.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: And so I had the gift of a counselor when my dad was sick and we passed away, who was just.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: She was such a sweet gift to me and God really brought her, I believe, into my life during that season.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: But years later, after I'd worked through a lot of things, I was a different season of life, different location in life.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: There was another counselor that I had a short interaction with, or two, and he challenged me and he said to me I think you might need to forgive God.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, that seems like a really weird theological concept to grapple with.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, god forgives me, I don't need to forgive God.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: But in essence, there was that it's hard to talk about, we don't like to talk about in a lot of our religious circles, but the truth is.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I felt like God had let me down.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I felt like he was not good.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: I felt like he was not trustworthy, and so I needed to work through and talk through with my heavenly father, forgiving him and rebuilding trust with him and re-engaging with more of who his character is.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: But it also meant that that was deeply connected to forgiving my dad for some things, and so I actually went and drove to where my dad's grave is and I sat and talked with him and I know he wasn't there, but I needed to have a place to go and I needed to have a conversation for me to be able to forgive him and release him, even for things that he hadn't intentionally done but that were hurtful.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: And so part of that was just the process of forgiveness and release.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: That's the second part of the title of this chapter is releasing my dad, releasing God, which in turn releases me, yes, and sets me free, and it frees up the relationship even though there's not a tangible relationship that I still have with my father because he's not on this earth anymore, there's still a relational component to that, because he was positionally my father and there's a connection there, and so you know that's another element of what forgiveness looks like is.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: You know it's it's not just always people who are hurting us in present time.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: It's people that have hurt us in past time and it's people who aren't here anymore.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: This is where it's important to be able to reflect for us.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about when you were saying something earlier, elizabeth.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about how, if we're not aware of what we're feeling in certain moments and of the timeliness of things like, we have to be aware of those things so that we can lean in and go okay, what's really going on here?
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I need to deal with this.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So I wouldn't have known that I needed to deal with some of those things if I wasn't paying attention to some of the indicators, right, the things that are indicating hey, there's something deeper here to acknowledge and deal with.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah Well, kimberly, as our resident mediator and conflict person, I have a question for you.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: We're talking a lot about when we need to forgive someone, but what about those times when you are the one who has hurt someone else and they may not be ready to forgive you?
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: What is your advice to someone saying, ok, I've blown it, I have really hurt someone I love.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I recognize that I've hurt them, but they may not be at a point, where of this that we're talking about, where they want to choose to forgive us.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: What, what advice do you have for people that might be in those types of situations?
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's hard, because I think the truthful answer there is you have to give time.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: None of us can be rushed to forgive, but I do think that it's important.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: If we are the offender and I have been in that position many times and will continue to find myself in that position If we are the offender, we have to have an incredibly large amount of humility and brokenness over what we've done and we need to admit it, we need to acknowledge it, we need to seek to understand how it's made the other person feel.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: I think we need to say that we are sorry and we need to ask for their forgiveness and then we need to give them time to see when they're ready to forgive us.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: And that's a hard place to sit because you're the one who's you're kind of the guilty party.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: But if you acknowledge that you're the guilty party, you're also free.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: You're free by acknowledging that, truly acknowledging and owning that.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: You don't have to sit in shame, because that's often the dance that's on that side of it.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: If you are genuinely repentant and sorry and you're owning it and you I mean the other piece of that is you got to realize what you're doing.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: You got to change.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: You have to change and you have to graciously, over time, show the other person and it may not look.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I mean you may not be able to show them like you want to because they may not feel safe with you, but there are still ways to show someone that you're different and that that difference is real.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: And that takes a lot of time.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: And this is one of those things where I that takes a lot of time.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is one of those things where I work with a lot of family systems, meaning parents and kids, or husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, whatever and there are times where these relationships didn't get here overnight.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: The layer of hurts that are there, they didn't get there overnight, it's been building over time.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Oftentimes I'll have a couple that I'm working with and typically there's one spouse who wants things to move along faster and the other one needs time, and God's really great to put us with people who are different from us.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: To stretch us and grow us.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: But the reality, in those situations you can't force someone to forgive you.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: And if you are genuinely sorry and broken and contrite and wanting to change and see and own your behavior, I think you also have to be leaning into your own work of okay, I've deeply hurt this person by my actions or my behavior or my patterns or my words.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: How do I really need to change?
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: And I would say, focus your efforts on how you need to deal with what's been going on in you and changing that.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: You know, alongside admitting that to them and telling them that you're sorry and that, and asking them to forgive you and telling them that they can forgive you as they're ready, letting them do their work.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: You're not sitting passively, like a waiting room is never a passive place.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Right yeah.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Waiting is active.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: While you are waiting for someone to forgive you, you actively need to be about seeking the Lord for yourself and getting your own help and perspective on what you need to learn and how you need to grow and change through realizing how you've hurt someone.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: It's a hard spot.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: It's really hard to be on the side of the offender, to go back to being on the side of the one who's offended.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I'd like to offer five steps of forgiveness that you can work through and ask yourself.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: So here's a couple of things that I would share with people, and this has been helpful to me in my life as well.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: So step one would be are you willing to acknowledge the hurt?
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: So when you're seeking, when you know that you need to forgive someone, are you willing to acknowledge the hurt?
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Step two is are you willing to acknowledge how it actually made you feel?
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Step three is are you willing to release the person from the debt they owe you?
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: That's a hard one, it's a very hard one, and this is not like you're going to go through all five steps in five minutes or five days or five months.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, but being able to ask yourself am I willing to release the person from the debt they owe me.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Step four are you willing to accept the person unconditionally?
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Now, this does not mean that you have to reconcile fully with them Okay, we addressed that a few minutes ago but it does mean that you're releasing them from the responsibility to make you feel loved and accepted, because feeling loved and accepted is God, the Father's, job.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: So we have to put that in its right place.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: And then, lastly, which I think this is the toughest, are you willing to be hurt again, if God allows it?
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: What if they hurt you again?
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: What if they never change?
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: What if your feelings don't change?
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Those are some tough things to think through.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Forgiveness is not just forgive and let go.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: It's not easy.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: This is hard, hard work, and I just want to tell people that are listening it's okay to take your time, it's okay, it's actually good to work through this with intentionality and honesty.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: And it's hard.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: So you may you probably not just may you probably need someone to walk the journey with you.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: You definitely need the Lord to walk this journey with you, but you may need a really trusted counselor, friend, professional.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think the other good hope in this is that it's not just you.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Oh no, it's not that's right.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: It's, you know, as I'm having to choose to forgive, I can call on Father, son and Holy Spirit to even give me the ability to forgive.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: That's right Because Jesus is the ultimate example.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: How many different ways did he cry out to God and ask them, father, forgive them, because they don't know what they're doing?
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Ways did he cry out to God and ask them, father, forgive them, because they don't know what they're doing?
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: And he had every right to call down kingdom justice over this entire situation that he's in.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: So we have someone we can lean on and be honest with and say, jesus, I don't want to.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: This is hard, I'm scared, but would you help me truly forgive and let go of the pain of this particular situation?
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: As we close this podcast, we want to end by praying a prayer of forgiveness and a declaration of release.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: These are two tools that you can use as you think through people in your life that you may need to let go of your resentment, bitterness, unforgiveness, for this is simply a model.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: We want you to take this and make it your own, but let's pray together through this prayer of forgiveness.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Dear Father, I have been hurt and wounded by someone, while they were wrong in their actions and words towards me.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I have been wrong in my sinful responses towards them.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Your word says that Jesus was bruised for our transgressions and by his stripes we are healed.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Take from me any pain I've been holding on to about this person.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I don't want to carry it anymore.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: I confess the sin of judging them and their specific offenses against me.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Forgive me for the anger and hatred I have had in my heart against them.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you for forgiving me.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Through the blood of Jesus, I choose to forgive and release them of all of my judgments.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I will let go of all bitterness, resentment and all ungodly attitudes.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: All judgment belongs to you.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Where there has been injustice, I choose to let you be judge and I trust you to take care of me.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Your power and grace are at work in me.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: I receive all your gracious work in my life and choose to live in tune with your heart for this person, in Jesus' name, amen.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Now that you have asked God to forgive you, a declaration of release is needed.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Release is spoken to the offender, whether they are present or absent, living or dead.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: It recognizes that our words and actions have bound them and, equally as important, bound us to the person.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: It is often very liberating to speak or write this release to them.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: If we can, With God's power, it can be done.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Because Jesus Christ is my Lord.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: I free you from my judgments and sinful responses.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: I give you back to God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I place you at God's throne of grace.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I want my heart to be free by his power.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: I entrust you to God for him to work in you and in me in his time and in his way.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: I choose to see you as God sees you.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: I bless you to be all God called you to be.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I will continue to ask for his love for you.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: I cannot impose my will or expectations upon you, so I place all my expectations on the cross of Jesus.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I know that God has good plans and purposes for each of us.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I release you, I give you entirely to God.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: I loose you and let you go.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: We are both free.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you for listening to the Father's Business Podcast.