Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S5 EP20 - The Man Who Vanished After Killing His Family_ The John List Nightmare Episode 1

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S5 EP20 - The Man Who Vanished After Killing His Family_ The John List Nightmare Episode 1 · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hello. You could say words, Lady and Gray, Hi, just.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Use your words.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Hey, love the Internet. Just hitting Hello everyone, and welcome
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: to another episode of True Crime and Wine Time, where
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: we dive into the most jaw dropping true crime stories
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: while sipping something smooth to take the edge off. So
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: before we begin, poor Glass got mine, lock your doors
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: and let some core the truth behind some of the
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: darkest of crimes. I'm your host, Lama and the Lovely Terry.
• 0:50
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• 0:58
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• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I brought the lovely point this way. I think the
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Lovely Lady and Gray with me again tonight. I am
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: so good at the peer pressure apparently.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Yes you are. I'm trying to spread it too. And
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: how y'all I had so much fun last week. I
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: just had return and talk about a very interesting case
• 1:20
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• 1:23
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• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Lady and Gray, why don't you tell us what we'll
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: be covering tonight.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, you got me missed up here. We are
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: covering part one of the story of John lest It
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: was a devout Lutheran father and his beautiful wife and
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: mother in a quiet New Jersey mansion, very nice place,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: that is, until he murdered them all. Well, it would
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: take eighteen years, a clay bust and an episode of
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: America's Most Wanted to finally unmask the man who thought
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: he could outsmart time and get some long awaited justice.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: This is the story of faith control and one of
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: the most cold blooded family annihilators in American history.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Just chilling. Just the opening is just no chilling, Yeah,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: because means chills thinking about it. But yes, and you guys,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: this in order to tell the story in the best
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: informative way, this is going to be a two part pod. Okay,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: So tonight we're just doing part one and we will
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: be doing part two next week, so you'll have to
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: join us for that to find out the conclusion. But
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Leading and Gray, what are you drinking tonight?
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Well, tonight, I'm just having my normal tonic water with
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: lime in my what I call my doctor Spencer Reed
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Tumblr because I see it looks like my cap.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Oh I almost thought that was Doctor Spencer reed.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: No, but it looks like when I talk about doctor
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Spencer read. This is what I'm talking about, and I
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: prefer believe it or not A store brand, Okay, Kroger
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Tonic Water. You can't see it. I don't know if
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: you can or not.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes we can.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: As you can see, this is a regular, just like
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: a soda. It's just tom skinny nice. It's pretty reasons
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: surprise you get like eight for likes a lot.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I think I've ever had a tonic water before.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: This tonic water alone, that's what I usually drink.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Well, then, why are you now? Well? I today was
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: already decided for me from earlier today. But tonight I'm
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: finishing off our last bottle. Oh there's doll care on
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: the bottom because they said it on the floor. Oh.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I don't want to show you guys that. But tonight
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I've been a finishing off our last bottle of leftover
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Elfeat's brother. I think prosecco known as the Kirkland brand
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: of something big long word I cannot pronounce. So I'm
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: not even going and going to oh yeah, like you know,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: it's very word, what scarier superior anyway? Okay, well, thank
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: you babe. Anyway, I already cracked this bottle open a
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: few hours ago on couch court with Lama. I couldn't
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: let go to waste. Here we are, I got oh
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: with a splash of simply strawberry juice.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: So rawberry juice.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really good. It's very refreshing and light. But yeah,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: that all came from his brother's wedding. We are not
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: bougie and just having prosecco and champagne in our house
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: all the time.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you must be doing well on your podcast.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: We're not doing champagne. Well all right, well let's get
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: in to the story for tonight. Are you guys ready? Chats?
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Hey?
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: All right, why don't you kick us off? Lady?
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: All right? Will? This is John emil List. He was
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: born to a German speaking family in Bay City, Michigan,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: on September seventeenth, nineteen twenty five, one year after his
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: parents were married. His father, John Frederick, was sixty four.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: At sixty four, was twenty five years older than his wife, Alma.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Of German descent, they belonged to the German Lutheran Church.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: The age difference of twenty five years wasn't the only
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: curious aspect of this marriage. John and Frederick John, Frederick
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: and Almah were also second cousins legal but just you know,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: and full disclosure, my grandparents are fourth cousins, which is
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: also legal. A bit weird, but a good conversation starter.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that fourth is acceptable at a certain point, like, okay,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: second cousins, and that big of an age difference is okay,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: how did they get there? It's what I'm.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: The List family lived in a Victorian house in which
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: they rented out the upstairs apartment. That's like one of
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: the houses I've always wanted to live in. But so
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: John slept in the parlor and had no privacy or
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: space for his personal effects, which makes no sense. Look
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: how big that house is, he can have his own room.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: He's the only child. Get out of here now. As
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: a result of his living space being a public space,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: which is what little boys love, right, just especially in
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: those teen years just a okay. Anyways, though, he learned
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: to be neat and to always put his things away
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: so he could blend into the background. Before you go,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Sammy Sunshine became a member again. Thank you, Sam him,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the member fam.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: This is going to be this is going to mean
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: a lot more later. But John's father only dealt with
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: him through his wife, referring to him as the boy
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: he was expected to behave, expel at school and uphold
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: the faith of their church. John rarely spent any time
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: with his father, who was considered to be the neighborhood crank.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: That apple won't fall from the church, fall far from
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: the tree. His father, who ran a local store, apparently
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: disliked children.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Her face really creeps me out. Well, oh, that creeps
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: me out a lot. Don't like Yes, I don't like her,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: but yikes. So John's mother protected him and brought him
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: into her social life, which centered on the church. Since
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: his father was a church trustee and also its treasure
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Alma urged her son to follow in his footsteps. Most nights,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: they read the Bible together, a practice John kept up
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: until he murdered her.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Because practice wouldn't it Yeah, the classic helicopter parent. Alma
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: feared that John might get sick, so she watched him constantly,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: keeping him dressed up to stay warm and dry. He
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: was not allowed to go out and play with the
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: other boys. She smothered him, giving him the impression that
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: the world beyond her was a dangerous place. For most
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: of his childhood, accepted this.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: In high school, John made some friends, but to the
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: spreads of no one, had no girlfriends. After graduating, and
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: over his mother's protest, he enlisted in the army. A
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: year later, in nineteen forty four, his father died and
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: he went home to attend the funeral. So people noticed
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: that he showed no signs of grief, and already he
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: seemed cold and unmoved. And I have this to say
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: about that. I mean, I have heard that kids who
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: have much, much older parents usually don't have that parent
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: child connection bond. You know, his dad would have been
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: in his eighties and was notorious for not liking children.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: So the coldness, I don't think it's it's John's fault
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: and or weird. And I'm going to assure you all
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: this is the only freebie I'm going to give this
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: man tonight. Okay, this is it. I don't think that
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: makes him a psycho at this point in time, for
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: his dad being in his eighties and passing away when
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: he's a it is young boy man, that is.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: And it's hard on a young boy not to have
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: a father that's closer to him to well. After the funeral,
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: John was shipped overseas to the Pacific, but warld War
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: two was over before he had a chance to see
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: much action. He came home with an interest in firearms.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and a new acquisition, an Austrian stires stire
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: that nearly three decades later he would use.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: On his own family. Yeah, this guy's a real piece
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: of work now. Alma urged John to go into accounting
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: for his career because of his personality. I'm sure after
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: his career after the war. No shade here, no shade
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: to the previous account. But you do have a personality
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: though some let's you worked with them. Let's be honest.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: I have worked with him. Yes, yes, I know what
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: you mean.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: But his mom wanted to have that job because it
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: was respected, stable and safe. You attend the University of
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Michigan in ann armour. Hopefully eighties isn't listening. One of
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: his classmates was named Robert Clark, and John remembered him
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: well enough to later adopt his name as an alias,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: though Clark could not recall ever having met him. It'd
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: be so that's so weird it is. It's kind of funny,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: it is it is now. Almah visited once a month
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: and they would go out to dinner and attend church
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: services together. And they love to do their favorite thing,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: which was to read and discuss the Bible. So real
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: party animal.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Real party animals. He graduated with the Bechelor's degree in
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: a business administration and with his ROTC service, he became
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: a second lieutenant in the Army Reserve. He went on
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: to get an NBA. Just as he was starting a job,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: he was called into service for the Korean War. Once again,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: he saw no action and he ended up stationed in Virginia. Well.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: He did, however, meet his future wife while living in
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Virginia at a bowling alley. So that's cute. Helen Taylor
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: had gone out that night with her sister, Jeane Seifert.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Helen was a recent military widow with a nine year
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: old daughter, Brenda. Gosh, those pictures are sold. Oh. It
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: was later said that Helen never really got over losing
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: her first husband, Marvin Taylor, whom she had married as
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: a teenager. In addition to Brenda, the young military couple
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: had a son who died before Marvin was killed in
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: action in Korea, So she's already kind of had a
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: tough we go.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Has she has had a rep lap lap. John coured
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: her enthusiastically, and she was eager to find a new husband.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: He seemed like a mama's boy, but she thought him
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: kind and stable. M John's mother, however, did not like
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: this arrangement one bit. Shock. Yeah, she was suspicious of Helen,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: probably because the twenty four year old woman was a
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: young widowed mother, and because she did not belong to
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: their church. She was not one of them. Honestly, the
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Alma would find any woman suitable for her baby boy.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Oh no, not at all. How's it her fault? She's
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: a young widow.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: When there was a word, well, you know there are
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: there are people back in those days.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those people these days too now. Helen then announced
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: that she was pregnant. John knew they would have to
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: get married and soon, because that sounded great. He seemed
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: proud that there was some evidence that he had already
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: been to with her. I mean you right, Okay. They
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: tied the knot two months later after they met on
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: December one, nineteen fifty one. Then John introduced Helen to
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: his mother. Almah would never let John forget that he
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: had married beneath himself, because you know, he's her baby
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: boy and a king and deserves the best of everything.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: I'll just say this, Almah sucks and it's horrible, and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: she's the only one I do not feel sorry for
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: her in the story. I'm sorry she sounded like a
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: horrible dragon lady. Okay, I really did she did. Now.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Just before they were married, Helen told John that she was,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: in fact not pregnant, but John felt the momentum pushing
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: them to marry anyway, so he did now before they
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: got married that she wasn't pregnant. You know, it wasn't
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: like a trap situation, right, and he sold her on. Now,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: it was not long before she regretted her rush to
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: marry him.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, two months is not long enough. Now. Oh. Look,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: they were scheduled to go to California to an army
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: accounting center, and John decided to invite his mother since
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: she had never seen California. It was Helen's first taste
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: of how firm a present John's mother was in her
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: husband's life. They disliked each other, and John was always
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: caught in the.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Middle don't say now. When the army discharged him, John
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: took Helen back to Detroit, where he resumed his accounting
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: job in a prestigious firm. After a series of miscarriages,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: their first child, Patricia Marie, was born in January of
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five. Her first grandchild won over to her
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: son's marriage. Because this isn't in her notes, but he
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: solid earlier she was really upset that she kept having
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: miscarriages and was a bitch about it. That's what I
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: don't like you, Alma, Yeah, you're the worst. So then
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: John took a job in a growing company and moved
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: his family to Kalamazoo That I just say like that
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: because it's one of my favorite cities to pronounce. It's
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: so fun. Where another child was born, John Frederick, known
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: as John Junior. There's a lot just like our last
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: episode with there's a lot of similar names in this Witness.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of John, a lot of John's and Frederick's. Helen,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: uninterested in John's religion, began avoiding attending church, leaving him
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: feeling abandoned. He began to feel angry into sulk in private.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Then Helen got pregnant again, which depressed her. So this
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: is number three. In like three years, four years Brenda,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Helen's first child was growing estranged. Now sixteen, Brenda wanted
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: to get out of the house and she was called
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: in send Brenda was pregnant and sent to a home
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: for unwed mothers. Oh yeah, that's what she did back then.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Not that it was right, but it's what he did.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: By the way, I don't know how Brenda old Brenda
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: was in the photo, but she is very beautiful. She
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: was just put that out there. So after Frederick Michael
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: was born in nineteen fifty eight, Helen took to the bottle.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: She also became addicted to tranquilizers and began to see
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. I am sure is nineteen fifty eight. I
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: am sure they are leudes or something. They're gonna be
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: intense whatever she's on. Okay. She was spending more money
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: than John earned and neglecting the children, leaving much of
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: the child rearing to him. He rarely complained, but on
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: occasion when Helen pushed him too far, his face became
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: blotched and he would tremble with rage. Now once he
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: even overturned the kitchen table. I'm not saying I've done that,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: but I've definitely been to a point where I felt
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: like I could have done that, So I get it. However,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: it overturns it okay, and Helen simply said she was
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: not cleaning it up and left him to do it.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: He got down on his hand on his knees and
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: picked up the broken dishes, as one should. If you're
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: going to do something like that's up to you to go. Yeah.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: I mean I wouldn't do that either. Well we will
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: learn more about the children later, but for now, let's
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: continue on with John List, the director of this horror show.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Tonight, the company that John worked for merged with another,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: and he was let go as a result. Been there,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: it does mess with your head just a little, So
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: I'll give him a little grace for that. Yeah, only
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: for a second. He then accepted a job in Rochester,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: New York with Xerox. Hey man, he's moving up here.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: By the way, I'm pouring my prosecco. I am not peeing.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay. Again, the Lists over spent and John
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: began to lie to people about their situation. Helen despised
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: him in his quirky ways and he grew angry when
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: she attracted the attention of other men, which I think
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: was kind of frequent.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Actually, in less than a year at Xerox, he was
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: also let go. This is not going great for him.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: He had a difficult time finding work, which is weird
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: but okay. And Helen's health was deteriorating. She did not
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: know it yet, but she had syphilis and her brain
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: tissues were shrinking. She had gotten this disease from her
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: first husband, Marvin, and it was too late for any
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: kind of treatment, and alcohol and pills only aggravated it.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: She's so pretty. Look at that picture.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really sad. No, that's so sad.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: John finally landed another job as vice president and controller
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: of the First National Bank of Jersey City in New Jersey.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: They moved to Westfield, New Jersey in nineteen sixty five.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: John asked his mother for the down payment for a
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: morge so they could purchase Breeze Noll, the mansion on
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Hillside Avenue.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, oh one. I want to live in a
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: house that has a name.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Now we can.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: You know, why don't people just make up names for
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: their houses? Is there a call? I can just call
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: my house? Whatever you could.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Call your house, the bathroom repair, the terrain house. Yeah.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Anyway, So Breeznol was a nineteen room, three story Victorian mansion,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: maybe Lama's dream home, and it was the most expensive
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: house in an upper middle class neighborhood in Westfield, New Jersey.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: This home was on the north end of Westfield, which
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: was considered the wealthy and most desirable part of town
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: because only the best for the list.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: The spacious home even boasted its own ballroom, skippity manner
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: capain so mean time her outkiddy. Sorry, sorry for our
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: pod listeners. We do have comments that pop up on
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: the screen for our lovely life shatters that we love
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: all the time, so sometimes we get a little distracted.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: That was a good one anyway. So this spacious home
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: even had a ballroom, which was described as the size
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: of a basketball court by one of John Junior's friends.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: That's bigger than house, for sure. It's like three of
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: my houses.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I know. It looked pretty large. Well. Alma readily agreed
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: to loan the money for the down payment on one
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: condition that she gets to live there with them.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always amazing when your mother in law moves.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: In yeah, for all the rest of her life would
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: be the unhappiest she ever felt.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: I think somebody on our team can really relate to
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: this one.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Come on, and once she gave power of attorney over
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: to over her over her money to her son, she
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: lost everything she had.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: I have no sympathy for all.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, Well, this new job only lasted a year,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: no surprise, because it was more a pr job than
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: an accounting job, and it require required social skills and
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: the ability to pull a new business. John was no salesman. Yeah,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: also had very limited social skills with his coworkers and supervisors,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: which if you can't talk to your supervisors, they're not
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: going to keep you around.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: So right, how even got this job in the first place?
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Because he is not known to be a very personable man.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: He must do really bang up jobs on interview somehow,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: that's all.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: He's probably reading that book that I hate that I
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: won't mention the book. That sall not there is now
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: is the time everybody's reading it? Now?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Anyway, very shortly, you guys guessed it. He was
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: fired again from another job. But is this four? Are
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: we on four now? Something like that? Anyway, he faced
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: a huge mortgage and high utility bills. You don't say
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: not to mention expenses for the family with children who
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: were becoming teenagers. Unable to tell Helen he left the house.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: This fucking guy. He left the house each morning as
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: if going to work, and instead he sat in the
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: train station all day reading the newspaper or a book.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: That's just what he did. And what was crazy to
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: me is why he bought a big ass expensive home
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: in the first place, knowing Dom well, they couldn't afford it.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: You know. I'm sure Alma though told him. You know,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: he was a special little boy in his early days
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: when he deserved all of the best. But like, also, sir,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: why would you be making a purchase like that.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: I'd say. Helen wanted it too, She liked the stuff.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Helen's brain is the part.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: I will give her that. He knows that I will
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: give her that. Yeah, her brain's not quite there. Yeah,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: no photo pellets. He did. He did this for six
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: full months, bring the bills from his others count but
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: never telling her how, she said financially. He finally found
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: another job, but it was in New York and it
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: paid substantially less. This job too. In the last year
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: to pay his bills, he took out a second mortgage.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: The train ride for this commute was probably about an
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: hour each way, which is not unusual for commutes in
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: New York City, but it may have been an acceptable
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: alternative sitting at the train station all day. You're gonna
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: say it, let's get paid to see it, right?
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: How hard is it to get a job as an
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: account though? I feel like that's a necessary job, like
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: in so many.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Places, like especially in that area, you know, like, yeah, that's.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: What always weirds me out, Like I don't understand.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know either.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Well, you guys. Helen was diagnosed with cerebral atrophy, which
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: is not that's not good. It's really bad for your brain,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and John was advised to have her institutionalized, but he refused.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: To escape his troubles. He lost himself in his hobbies,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: books on military strategy, crime and weapons. Great choices for
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: hobbies always works out well. It was at this time
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: that he mentioned to his brother in law how easy
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: it would be for a person like him to start
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: another life. In October of nineteen seventy one, he did
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: apply for a firearms registration for home protection However, he
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: had something altogether different in mind.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: M yeah, well, he got another job sailing mutual funds
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: from his house.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, work from home jobs.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: That means he was home all day with Alan and
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Helen continued to drink during this time, of course she did.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: John tried to please her by buying her things, but
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: seemed never to meet her approval. He began to sleep
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: in other rooms of the house to avoid her sharp tongue.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: He prayed to God for answers, for help in some form,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: but he did not get it. His home, bought to
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: be haven from the world, was becoming a burden.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, well. To add to his troubles, the social
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: upheavals of the sixties were dissolving society as he knew it.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, terrible, oh gosh. And he felt trouble
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: at every turn. It seemed to him that his life
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: was disintegrating and for a rigid man who needed control,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: it was a disaster.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: And it was.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: It was a disaster for the most part. He's a disaster.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: He began to take a very firm hand with his
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: children and trying to force them to obey his royals,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: which always goes well, always.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Goes, well, those evil sixties.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I know. Right now, Before we go further, let's take
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: a few minutes to meet the list children. In interviews
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: with their childhood friends, they seem to be relatively normal teenagers,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: the kind of kids most would like to hang out with.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Look at how adorable they are. They're so long, they're.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: The eldest was Patricia, also called Patty or pat by
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: her friends. She was almost eleven when they moved to Westfield,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: and she was sixteen when she was murdered by her father.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Put her hair gorgeous. A junior at Westfield High School,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: she was a good student at school and had joined
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: the community theater group just the year before she was killed.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: This most recent passion of hers brought resentment from her father,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and not like theater kids, no, he vamily opposed her
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: taking on adult roles, as well as having general misgivings
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: about what he considered to be a subpar vocation or hobby.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: But let's don't talk about his hobbies, huh. I mean,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: at least her hobbies didn't result in a annihilation of her
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: entire family. But okay, at the theater, watch out, yeah,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: the horror. Well, her friend ed Sardaki was in the
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: theater group and a few years older than Patty. He
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: considered their relationship to be an older brother younger sister's
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: type of thing, and he said she reminded him of
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: the girl described in the hippie song about the girl
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: with the flower in her hair, most likely the flower
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: girl by the costless Huh.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: I can't tell you. I mean you look at her
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: and you say, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it's
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: hid Patty. They had long brown hair and hazel eyes,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: and it was easy to see her as the girl
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: described in the song. He said she was just finding
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: herself a bit of a rebel, if only in the
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: way teenagers would begin to rebel against the restraints placed
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: on the end by their parents in society. He said
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: she was simple, easy to understand, and really sweet.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, there we are. So Patty's friend Susan
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: talked about how she and Patty spent hours playing the
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: guitar and singing together in the breeze and almost huge
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: ballroom and how cool would that have been. That'd been
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: awesome cool. She remembered the acoustics were amazing, probably so,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: she said for them as two dreamy teenagers singing and
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: playing music in that huge ballroom was like Hollywood, and
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: that would be awesome.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it probably was.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: John Junior was almost nine when the family moved to
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Westfield and was fifteen when he was killed by his father.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: He was a big boy, tall for his age, and
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: a big geeky. He was said to be very nice
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: and super well mannered. That's in quotes because I can
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: imagine he probably was, and a dilgent student. He wasn't
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: a dummy. He wasn't gregarious, but just rather shy.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: He looks so much like his dad though Duni though
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: he does, he does. But he is a good smile.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: He has a U He does a realistic smile, you know,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: a genuine smile. That's the word I'm going for there, anyway.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: So his friend Charlie and John Junior were close friends
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: and played soccer together and ate lunch together. We also
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: hung out together after school, with John Junior's younger brother
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: always welcome.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: To join them.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Charlie said hanging out at John's house was a strange
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: spot because of his father, John Lisz. Charlie said he
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: didn't remember ever seeing the older man smile, probably not.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Probably not Charlie said the house felt cold. But this
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: may or may not be the way he felt at
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: the time, but maybe how he felt when he thought
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: about it later after all this happened. I don't really know,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: but he said it didn't have It was sparsely furnished,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: which might be another reason he said it felt cold,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: and he and John Junior played floor hockey with brooms
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: and tennis balls in the expansive ballroom. Now, despite that
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: ballroom seemingly to be a fun and gathering place for
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: the teenagers, I don't think I like it very much.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's not great. So Fred was the youngest.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: He was seven when he moved into the breezeennoll in
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: just thirteen when he was slain by his father. Charlie,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: we just talked about having John Junior's friend. He said
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Fred hung out with him a lot, and he was
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: a nice kid, a mini version of his older brother.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: And he said that John Junior and Fred considered the
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: other brother to be their best friend. Oh mg, that's
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: so sweet.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Isn't he the cutest face?
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: He is so cute.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: He looks like boys I went to school with. That's
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: old I am. This is the way brothers should be.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: I agree with you, it's so sweet. I think it
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: also might be because they felt like they needed each other,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: maybe as a united front in that home just didn't
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: seem to have been a very nurturing place. Charlie and
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: the List brothers were in the Boy Scouts together, and
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: John List was one of their Scout leaders.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: So the List brothers, unlike their outgoing sister Patty, they
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: were very shy. Fred more so. He was sweet, innocent
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: and agreeable, and he had a bit of a lisp,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: and when Patty good heartedly tease him about it, he
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: never seemed to mind. He was the picture of a
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: boy scout. I mean, yes, yes he was.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. But as pat as she aged, Patty
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: began to rebel. She wore the fashions of the time,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: which probably means mini skirts, I'm thinking. Marsha Brady grew
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: independent and developed a strong interest in theater. Uh oh, Dad.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Probably didn't go over well with Daddy. Her father did
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: not know it, but she also began to smoke marijuana
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: and had developed an interest in the occult, to the
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: point she called herself a witch among her friends, which
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: kind of freaked him out a little bit. She says
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: that her father did not like her and they had
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: frequent conflicts at home.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Two months before, Patty had been picked up by
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the police for walking the streets after midnight and smoking.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is so kind of like typical teenagers
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: even now, years after the diabolical sixties.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: But to John List, his daughter was trouble and he
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: was certain she was going straight to hell because of course,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: of course, and that his wife, who no longer went
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: to church, protected Patty from his anger and was a
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: sure indication that things were getting out of hims. Yeah.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: On November fifth, nineteen seventy one, John List made a
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: decision to change everything. He gathered his children together after
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: dinner in the kitchen. He told them that they must
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: prepare to eye and asked if they prefer to be
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: buried or cremated.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Just normal, normal dinner conversation.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Conversation, no big deal. They were shocked but managed to
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: say they preferred to be buried. Without another word, he
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: walked out. Patty and John both believed that their father
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: and and to kill them, and soon it wouldn't be
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: until December seventh that anyone realized what John had done.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, that conversation freaked me out too. I'd be like, Oh,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: that's a really like weird thing to ask. Then I
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: think about it. Eli side note, I did ask me
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: this question the other day, well not are you prepared
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: to die? Like, what do you want to be buried? Created?
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: What do you want to do? And I was like, oh,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I probably want to be created? And he was like, Okay,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: I'm going to need you to tell all of your
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: friends that right now, so that way, if you die
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: and I creamate you, they won't think that I'm doing
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: that to cover something up.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: See he's been thinking, hey, yeah.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: I mean I guess.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what I'm gonna say it? You just telled us all.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, but still investigated though, just in case I'm
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: just kidding. Yeah. Anyway, back to this, So, the List
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: children were close to each other, but their parents were
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: a different story. While they're often bed redd and mother
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: seems supportive of them, John List was distant, judgmental, and
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: detached shucking. He would drive neighborhood kids off his yard
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: if they dared walk across it, even threw rocks from
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: the gravel driveway at them, which of course caused them
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: to cross his line just to set them off. Of course,
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: John list was literally the original get off my god.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: And I don't think we.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Included this in our notes, did we? But he does
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: this thing when he mows the yard. What he's wearing.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: We'll get Yeah, we'll get to that.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Okay. I couldn't remember if that was like in the
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: notes are my research of it? But okay, okay, well
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: don't bring it up then.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we will definitely talk about that.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Becakay, we have to okay. Sure.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: While his children tried to be respectful of their father,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Helen felt, no, so is that where I'm supposed to be?
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is no.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Such compunction to be so. With her husband, she believed
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: him often, and was even overheard by their pasture, telling John,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: if you were half the man my first husband was,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: we wouldn't be in this position. She analyized her her
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: first husband. It was rumored there was a photo of
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: him in her bedroom. So she seems to have forgiven
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Marvin for his infidelity and infecting her with syphilis. But
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: she does have a right to that notion that she wants.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, her brain is also had to feeling, I know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: because of Marvin.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: But so in John's mind, Marvin was seen as a
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Korean War hero. While he had nothing to show for
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: his military EXPERI variance. John felt his structured world was
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: falling apart. His marriage was ill fated from the start
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: and miserable. His children were rebelling, and he worried they
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: would follow their mother and pull away from the church.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: And he was unemployed and seemingly unemployable. I'm gonna go
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: with it's because of his personality and the aura he
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: gave off, Like, there is no reason a man like that,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: with that experience should happen. I mean, you're not even
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: talking to people a lot of the time. How are you?
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: No, you don't talk to people a lot of the time,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: which is why I liked it. You don't have the
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: people that you just when you would. I wonder what
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Ada would think of his aura.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Good big brother choked, Yes.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: It was everyone enlisted. Family trickster was hurtling toward the cliff,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: and rather than apply the brakes, John was in cruise control.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: He decided to put the peddle to the middle and
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: take his family with him on a swan dive over
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: the cliff.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that probably would have been nicer had they done
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: that than what he is about to do.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't go to see Wally Moose or whatever
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: his name was.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: So for the past month, a neighbor next to the
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: mansion on four point thirty one Hillside Avenue had noticed
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: all of the lights on in the house and thought
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: it was quite odd. She knew the Lists family had
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: been away on vacation, but now the lights were burning
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: out and the house appeared abandoned. Although she spotted a
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: strange car in the driveway on several occasions. She finally
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: decided to notify the police.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: At this point, well around the same time, the neighbor
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: picked up the phone Patty's drama coach it and ed
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Iliano I just got grapes looking at his picture had
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: his own concerns, so he decided to check them out.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Patty was supposed to be at a rehearsal for an
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: upcoming play and had not even sent a note to
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: say when she was returning from North Carolina. He went
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: to the house several times in this month all this
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: is going on, and finally decided to get them police involved,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: but they were already on their way while he was there.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: Now finding a window unlatched, the officers entered the house.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: There was no heat, so the temperature inside was almost
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: as cold as outside. Clearly, no one was there, although
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: they heard church music playing loudly over an intercom system.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: The police seemed the police the place seemed barren of furniture,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: as if the family had moved. Well, I just don't
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: think they had furniture, but it probably did. And you
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: buy a half like that, you can't afford the to
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: go in, what's the.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Point of buying it. The officers made their way through
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: the empty dining room and into the pantry, where they
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: noticed dark stains on the walls. In the kitchen, the
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: striped floor was stained with dark streaks, as was the
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: hallway beyond. They noticed that a terrible smell was getting
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: stronger from down that direction and knew that something terrible
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: had happened. It appeared as if someone had tried to
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: own successfully to clean up blood.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, I can't really tell. Is that blood
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: on the door or is that an elephant door?
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Stop?
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: You think it's okay? I was like, Oh, that's really cute.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I was like, it's not. Is it what an elephant sheep?
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know. So the police followed the scenes down
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: the hallway towards the ballroom. In one area near the fireplace,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: there appeared to be mounds of clothing stocked up, and
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: the odor in there was heavy. When their eyes adjusted
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: to the dark, they looked at four corpses placed side
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: by side on boy scout sleeping bags. Boy scout sleeping bags.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I really really hate this guy, do.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Not like it? Yeah. There were rags over their faces,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: trails of blood up to where they lay, indicating that
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: they had been dragged there from other rooms. The drama
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: coach immediately identified them as Helen List and her three children.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Three children was side by side and Helen was placed
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: at a t angle above their heads, and it was
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: clear that they had been there for some time. Now,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: look a police sketch.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Look, yeah, they even did those back in nineteen seve whatever. Yeah, okay, yeah,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: to use the state police track. It's not a new
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: concept to do a sketch or a diagram. Goodness, yes,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: stick men, Yes, but at least they tried.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: At least they have a diagroom.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: It make measurement.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: It looks yeah, and everything.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Now the officers checked the rest of the house while
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: the eerie organ music continued to play. And soon found
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: John Lyst's mother, Almah, murdered in the attic. She had
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: been closed into a storage haul off the kitchen and
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: a dish towel was placed on her face. She was
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: positioned on her back, knees spread and her calves under
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: her as if she had fallen to her knees and
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: then gone over backwards. They lifted the towel and saw
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: an expression of horror on her face and she had
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: been shot above the left eye. And I will say
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: that is exactly what it looks like, because.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: That's what it looks like. And so that's not going
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: to be shown here.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: No, no, we're not. We're not showing that. You can
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: find it yourself, but yeah, because don't like gold. But
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: also it is kind of gross.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So more police arrived and lasts were brought in
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: to reveal the killer's mo Hilen had been shot in
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: the left side of the head in the kitchen and
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: dragged by the feet down the hall to the ballroom.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Her arms were heavily streaked with blood. The killer had
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: left her with her not gown ridden up, exposing her thighs,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: and her stomach was badly distended.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Patty lay on her left side. She was wearing a
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: coat as if she had just come in. She too
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: had been shot in the head and then dragged to
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: where she lay. Fred was on his stomach, also wearing
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: a jacket. There was a pool of blood under his head,
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: and both brother and sister appeared to be merely asleep.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Now John Junior was another matter. His winter jacket was
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: on zipped, showing that he had been shot repeatedly in
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: the chest and face an attack more savage than the
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: others had suffered. Hm m mm.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: The house was searched to determine the killing pattern. Walls
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: and floors were streaked with blood, and efforts had been
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: made to clean up blood. Soap, towels and newspapers, now hardened,
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: were found in paper bags in the ballroom and the kitchen.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: It looked as if the killer had expected to take
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: them with him out with the rest of the trash.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Bullet holes and several walls indicated that many shots were fired.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: It was Westfield's first murder in eight years, and it
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: was a slaughter.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say, this isn't even a murder, This
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: is a mass murderer. For the times, you know, Like
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: holy crap. I know now. Doctor Ehrenberg, a Union County
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: medical examiner, arrived. When he examined John Junior, he suspected
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: the kid had put up a fight since he had
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: been shot multiple times, but looking more closely at the bodies,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: there was apparent disintegration of the fingers and toes in
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: small maggots had begun their work and the bodies were bloated.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: A neighbor, a doctor, came in to identify the bodies,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: and he mentioned that there was one member of the
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: family who was not president. Oh my gosh, you gotta
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: be the children's father, John list Hugh.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Well where he's at. While the officers talked over what
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: they knew of the man, a discovery was made in
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: what appeared to be in office on the filing cabinet.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Will take a group of notes, each addressed to a
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: separate person. One told of the location of keys to
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: the file cabinet Nurves, the founder of the note, to
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: contact the proper authorities. In the bottom drawer were two
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: games nine millimeters automatic and a twenty two caliber pistol
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: and some ammunition. These were impounded and tagged Well.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: This freaking guy. So inside inside the desk was a
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: large Manila envelope addressed to the pastor of lists church,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Eugene Awinkle. That's a fun last name. Inside of that
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: were checkbooks, bank books, insurance policies, and tax records. But
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know what was he just like leaving those
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: to the church or something. Mister, I have no freaking money,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: so I'm gonna kill my family, but I'm gonna give
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: all this stuff to the church.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Maybe you wanted him to write the last bills, pay
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: the last bills with I don't know what.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Anyway. There was also a book that showed lists accumulating debts,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: five notes and a long letter express condolences to family members,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: gave advice to associates because this guy you want advice
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: from John List He is so successful in everything he does, obviously,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: and he wrote out the final arrangement for his murdered family.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: The audacity of this guy.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Here's what I want you to do. It made it
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: beat for you. To his boss, he wrote, I'm sorry
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: that it all had in this way, but with so
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: little income, I just couldn't go on keeping the family together.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: And I didn't want them to experience poverty, Like it's
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: the bosses problem.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: You didn't need to live in that house, though you
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: could have tried. Oh my gosh, his whole I'd rather
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: my family be dead than in a four bedroom house
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: with no ballroom is astonishing to me. I know, you
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: know who Jesus because he freaking loved Jesus. You know who.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Jesus really had a thing for the poors. Yes, yours,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: but not not, mister, I'm so religious. No, we can't.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: We can't be poor living in a normal size house.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: No, I know, Goud, it's terrible. He made the same
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: excuse to Helen's mother, the children's maternal grandmother. He also
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: means that he cannot be sure that their soul remain
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: pure in the future, giving the impression that he believed
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: he killed him for their own goods, so to save
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: his own mother from me, which he'd killed her too.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: What a giver this guy is, Yeah, looking out for you,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: To be honest, I'm surprised he did go He didn't
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: go over kill with Almah, like with what happened with
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: John Junior. I am kind of surprised he didn't blame
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: her for a lot of things. It's like the first
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: I think I've come across that doesn't have well, he's
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: have super mommy issues, but you know what I mean.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Now, So to his pastor, he scrawled a five five
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: page confession which provided the whole story in detail of
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: how he had done the grizzly deed. He said his
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: wife was sick and had been turning away from God.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: His daughter was doing the same. He had prayed for guidance,
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: but God had not answered him, so he goes to
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: kill them. I guess that's that's speaken to that conclusion.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: But okay, no, it was an answer. I'm sorry, right,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: Like silence is also an answer. It's like, no, why
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: would you even think I'd give you an answer? Okay.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: So John feared that the conditions of the world would
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: be harmful to his children's souls as they reached adulthood,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: insisting that he had taken care to ensure that their
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: deaths were not painful. List right List mentioned that John
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: had put up a fight but had not suffered long.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Then Liszt had gotten on his knees and prayed for
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: each one. I hate this guy. I hate this guy
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: so much. He's like, oh, don't worry John Junior, who
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: looks just like me. The guy shot a bunch of times.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: He didn't suffer long, even though we looked eyes the
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: whole time as his own dad is shooting him.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: You don't think that emotional pain was worse than the
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: physical bind You know it was fair points whoaugh. He
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: gave detailed instructions for cremation with services that would ensure
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: a quick passage to heaven. He was grateful that they
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: had all died as Christians. Then in a PostScript, he added,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: mother is in the attic. She was too heavy to
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: move a the PostScript for his mother. What a guy flight.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, sight of my face love clue.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, it was time to search the house worth early
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: to piece together what had happened on that gruesome day.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, because it's it's not great. So Chief James Moran
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: led the investigation, and he was determined that List should
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: not be allowed to escape the consequences of what he
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: had done. Agreed every effort would be made to track
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: him down and bring him to justice. Look at that guy,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: that's guys, I'm here to bring justice. Within an hour
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: of the discovery of the bodies, a teletype alarm was
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: sent out for John Emil List. I think that's what
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: like a telegram or something. I don't know, but that's
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: how it sounds like to me. Then the bodies were
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: removed for autopsy, and a shell and shellcasings were picked
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: up to try to determined how many times the victims
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: were shot at. And not Hicks.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: He's like a stormtrooper. Such a stormtrooper I had. I
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: had to fuddle war Stars. Yeah, I had to have
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: war Stars tonight from Kerry. It came out later that
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Liz had numerous books on how to commit murder and
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: get away with it, and then he had spoken about
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: how easy it would be for an accountant like himself
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: with access to Social Security numbers assume a new identity.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: I don't think that, and I'm an accountant too. He
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: also had developed an obsession with military strategy games, so
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: he made himself a winner when he cannot be a
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: successful winner in real world.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: Typical. Typical. But here's the thing. He didn't really get
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: all these books on how to commit murder and get
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: away with it. But he didn't get away with murder
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: though he told him saying this is what I've do,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that's not what it's said to do
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: in the book. Okay. You literally was like, oh me,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: I did it. Here's why. Here's my full confession to
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: like seven people.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: It's like he's the worst.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: Right, Like I don't think he understood the full assignment.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: Like okay, okay, you know how to like change your identity,
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: but the getting away with murder part, it's step one
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: and you failed. Miserable.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: Oh he's crazy, Oh idiot. Oh let's see where are we.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Oh it's my turn. Myraine is just.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Like no, I'm like, I'm getting this craziness.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. So, his missing blue Chevrolet in Paula
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: was located at the Kennedy International Airport in a long
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: term parking. The voucher was dated November tenth, and he
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: was not listed as having taken a flight, but his
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: passport was missing from the house. Now. The trail ended
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: there and the FBI was given jurisdiction for the search.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: In iSentia. List was indicted by a New Jersey grand
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: jury on five ounce of murder and on fleeing a
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: crime scene across state lines.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: His record showed that he had failed miserably as an
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: insurance salesman, only surprised and was several thousand dollars in bed.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: He was behind on his mortgage and utility payments and
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: had made less than five thousand dollars for the entire year.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: Now it was nineteen seventy one, but I've done the
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: math for you. That is the equivalent of thirty nine thousand,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: six hundred and eighty seven dollars in twenty twenty five
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: with a master's degree. You sucked, John List, You just suck.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: Then he's too good. It's too poor.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's too poor for him.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: And this guy it's insufferable. So he also owed his
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: mother ten thousand dollars for payment for his house, so
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: double whatever the number, lady and Gray just said yeah,
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: and for closed proceedings had already started. So he was
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: going to lose this big, beautiful mansion that he could
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: never afford in the first place, had no furniture in it,
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: definitely wasn't going to get a good resale value now
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: that it's a freaking crime scene. So good job with that.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: And he had taken all of his mother's savings as well,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: some two hundred thousand dollars, which what is that like
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: a million dollars close to.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: Now, probably it probably be more than that because things
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: we'll find out later. We had a thousand dollars that
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: is almost a million dollars today, So it's a.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: Buffalo the money he spent with nothing to show for it.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: That's true now. As people request, and it became clear
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: that List not only had a trouble marriage to a
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: wife who despised him and who was growing increasingly ill
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: in housebound, but also that he was caught between her
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: and his over protective mother.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: The children had been unsettled and distressed as well, showing
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: signs of fear and panic. In the weeks before the
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: day of the murder. Patty even told her drama coach
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: that should he hear that they were about to go
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: off on a vacation, that would be a signal that
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: her father was about to murder them.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: It's crazy. A sixteen year old girl.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Well Edieleano did not take this seriously at the time. Well,
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: who would, right likely? When Patty told her friend Ed
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Saradaki that her father was making wills and other official
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: documents for her and her brothers, he also brushed off
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: her concerns as Liz just being an accountant who liked order.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: Sure, totally normal thing to do. Yeah, the right wills
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: for your fifteen year old year old.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: You might do that or have insurance policies for them,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: but you're not going to sit down and ask him. Now.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: You need to be ready to die.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, are you side some peas and pork chop?
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: So. As bullet patterns in the bodies and the walls
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: were examined, along with blood spatter and the evidence of
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: attempts to clean up, police were able to roughly determine
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: all of the events of that day and list of
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: preparations for it, including canceling deliveries of the newspaper, mail
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: and milk. So's a lot of things.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: He was he was checking off his list.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: He was it's interesting how he can, like, you know,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: take care of a budget now and come back instead
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: of I don't know, a couple of years ago before
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: he said, Oh, I guess I got to kill my
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: family now.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: He really needed it. On November ninth, nineteen seventy one,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: after his children had left for school, Liszt watched the
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: mailman drive away for the final time and then put
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: his plane in motion. The first victim was Helen. She
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: came into the kitchen in a red satin titty and
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: robe to get something to eat. Oh, Liszt left his
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: first floor office and came up to her from behind us.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: She stood looking out the window. As she sat looking
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: at the window, I'm sorry she was sitting. He raised
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: his Shiite Stier nine millimeters automatic handgun about eighteen inches
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: from her head and shot her in the jaw.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: Not even a nice shot, like and you don't mean
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: that is inline, but that can be crude, like that's
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: not an instant. I pretty sure if it's just in
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: her jaw.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: Well, it probably he shot her in her head, but
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: it probably was like this side instead of like in
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: back in front from Oh.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: Okay, I see what you're okay, So she may have Probably.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: He probably get close to her and shut it out.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: Why but he was eighteen inches away.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was just wondering if she would have suffered
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: or not, you know what I mean. Well, but we'll see. Okay, guys,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: guess what. She hit the table and then fell to
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: the floor and died instantly. So that just answered my question.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe we don't entirely.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: Oh but yes, that's probably what the autopsy, he said,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: but it may not be the case.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: Right. Blood gushing from her wound the toast she was
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: eating jammed in the back of her throat, which is
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: like one of my hors choking and so like, oh oh, Helen.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: It is likely that she had caught a glimpse of him.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: As he raised the gun. Liszt fired several more shots
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: into the wall beyond the table. One bullet ricocheted into
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: the adjoining room.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Why well, now, I did look at this research's gun.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: And you know how people say automatic, but it's really
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: a semi automatic where you have to pulled the trigger
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: each other. This one was not. This one was a
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: real automatic, which means his finger on the trigger, it
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: would go, It's like a machine gun.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, that makes a little bit more sense.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: So I know I had to look that up too,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: because I though, why does he keep on the trigger
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: when he knows when you can see that she's not
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: I believe that particular gun. You probably can't get one anymore.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: I mean inherited there or something that makes a little
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: bit more sense there.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: But also Stormtrooper. While Hill lay on the Linolan floor,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: Liz went up the backstairs to the third floor, and
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: without knocking, he entered his mother's apartment. He surprised her
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: in the kitchen. She was holding a plate waiting for
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: some toast to pop up from the toaster. She was
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: startled by his intrusion and asked him what that noise
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: was she had heard downstairs.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: His response was to shoot her point blank over the
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: left eye, and then shot two more bullets into the wall,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: apparently from an automatic reflex, as lady and Greg just
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: did an amazing job explaining that to us. It is
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: also possible, though, that he shot at her missed, and
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: she tried to run from him, but he caught her
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: and shot her in the face. His intent had been
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: to take her downstairs, but she was a large woman
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: and too heavy for him to move very far. She
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: didn't look very large to me.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: I think he was just a wamp.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: I think she did not look at all like a Why.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: I think he was just a wamp. Probably he didn't
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: want to go take her down three stairs.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: Could it be bothered?
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: Anyway, so he pushed her onto a carpet runner and
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: shoved her into the storage area. Why he had to
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: hide her? Why why would you even do that?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: Whatever? Understand either? When he displayed the others, it seems
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: really strange.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: Right, It doesn't what's the point it's in the attic.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: I didn't figure that one out either.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: Falling, he tried to clean the floor with a dampened
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: newspaper and a towel, because.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: Your manse gonna kill five people, come on, newspaper, that's
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: all he had. Jeez, maybe his mother didn't have any towels.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: This guy's a joke. By the way, everyone may be like,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: why are you guys joking and laughing so much? This
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: is horrible, and it's true. It is right what to
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: stay here and make fun of this pos is exactly
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: what he deserves. We're not making fun of the family.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: They did not deserve any of this.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: But he deserves mockery, very terrible.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, he does deserve all the mockery in the world.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Then List went back down and dragged Helen by her
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: feet down the center hall and into the ballroom. He
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: left a forty foot trail of blood and nothing. He
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: took three boy scout sleeping bags and opened two of
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: them side by side, and then he laid one perpendicular
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: to those two. And this is the one where he
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: put Helen's corpse face down. He covered her with a
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: bath towel and placed the kitchen towel on her head.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: As with his mother, he attempted to clean up the
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: trail of blood. It was at this point he realized
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: his own clothing was soaked in the blood of his victims. Well,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine, but.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: I just why did he move from in the first
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: So weird anyway, So then he went into his wife's bedroom,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: which he did not share with her, and sat on
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: the unmade bed, wiping his blood stained hand on the sheets.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Then he went into the bathroom and vomited, leaving a
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: bloody on the toilet lid. Afterwards, he showered and changed
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: into a fresh business suit and tie, leaving his soiled
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: clothing and spattered shoes in a pile in the bedroom,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: because yeah, of course.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: Why not, We're just gonna get dressed and ready to go.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: The next step was to leave a message for his
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: boss that he could not attend a scheduled meeting and
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: did not know when he could reschedule, because he was
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: taking the family to North Carolina to see There's mother's
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: mother who was very ill. Now she was in fact
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: eel which had prevented her from making a planned trip
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: to visit them, which is a good thing because she
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: would have been victim number six.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: He wrote notes to the children's schools and after school
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: places in employment with the same message.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: You know all the things he just did. Pretty sure
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: those weren't in his how to get Away with Murder books? No,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: none of that's the race stuff to do. But okay,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: glad you're a dunda. Now he waited all right, already
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: took care of his wife and mother. Now the children
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: would not be home for several hours, so to pass
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: the time, as one does, he went out into his yard. Yes,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: weirdest freaking things about this guy, Okay, So to pass
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: the time after killing his wife and his mother, he
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: went out into his yard dressed in his suit and
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: tie and raked leaps. By the way, he was known
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: to have mowed the yard in a suit and tie
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: on the wreck for some reason.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: And even if he didn't have a jacket, who was
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: still in a bress shirt and tie.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that die so a neighbor though, And that
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: day a neighbor saw him, but he John Liss pretended
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: not to notice her. Then he made lunch for himself
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: because he works up as sweat and he was hungry.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: He was very busy morning. So then the phone rang,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: startling him. Oh and it was Patty, his oldest daughter.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: She did not feel well and wanted a ride home.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: This presented a problem, though, since List had not planned
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: for it, even though he didn't really plan anything, but
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: he didn't plan for this. But he begrudgingly went and
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: picked her up at Westfield High.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, look, there's Westfield High School. Back at home, Liszt
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: hurried to be the first into the house. He crouched
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: behind the door waiting. As Patty entered, he show her
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: at close range in the back of her head. She
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: fell forward, dying, lying on dying on the floor. List
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: dragged her by the feet down the center home and
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: placed her on one of the open sleeping bags. Mmm.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: Makes to steal meowed mmm. List washed up once again,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: and this time he went to go run some errands,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: gathering what money he could by closing what was left
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: of his mother's account and also his own. He mailed
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: the letters he had written to the school and places
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: of employment and those who encountered him later. Remember how
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: blatchie his face looks and how nervous he acted. I
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: think by blotchie. They mean hives, right, It sounds like hives.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: Did I think red spots from what stress and exertions? Yeah? Yeah,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: if I was sweating even though it was November or
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: yeah November?
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's cold in New Jersey and November yoh yeah
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: it is by that Atlantic Ocean which is cold, ye know.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: Later that afternoon, he picked up young Fred from his
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: after school job. Once again, he heard into the house
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: and grabbed his gun from behind the kitchen door. Fred
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: did not have time to even remove his coat. He
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: was dead in an answer from a single bullet to
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: the head. Liz took him to the ballroom and placed
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: him next to Patty, positioning his head to touch his mother's.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: You know it's crazy, is young Fred? How was he
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: at thirteen? Fifteen? I forget howld he at thirteen? Well
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: he has a job, unlike you. John, the thirteen year
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: old can keep a job. What's your problem? But okay?
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: He had the children get jobs, he said, in order
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: to teach them responsibility. But it's not lost. It was
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: for the money, right exactly.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: So John Junior was not expected home until after his
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: soccer practice, so Liz prepared himself to leave as soon
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: as the last of his children were dispatched was dispatched.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: At one point, he looked up to see John coming
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: down the driveway much earlier than expected, and Liz was
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: not prepared, but he dared not let John see the
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: mess in the kitchen.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: John Jr. Came in through the laundry room and spotted
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: his father level of gun at him. He grabbed his
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: father's hand and the bullet that was fired pierced the ceiling.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: They struggled and two shots went into the floor. Another
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: hit the cabinet, and if it hit the dining room
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: window frame, John Junior dodged away. The next bullet caught
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: him in the back behind the neck, and another hit
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: him in the head. He fell and broke his jaw.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: This fired another, but the boy was still alive. With
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: a gun in each hand, he fired wildly and unmindful
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: of the noise. Desperate to kill his oldest son, John
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: Junior crawled across the floor to escape the barriage of
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: bullets from the twenty two. The boy turned over, face
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: up and list fired straight into his son's eyes. Still
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: he was not dead. The list fired again, mutilating his
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: son's body with each bullet. The boy was hit ten pounds.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: John Junior was said to be his father's favorite child favorite.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: Looks a lot like him.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: Mm hm, and he was probably They said it was
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: tall for his age of fifteen. He probably was as
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: tall as his dad.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: Probably, I would think probably. M Finally, the gun was empty,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: and John Junior lays still he was dead. Liz dragged
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: him into the ballroom to place him with the others.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: He straightened out the sleeping bags and then placed Helen's
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: stiffened arm over Fred. He covered each face with a towel,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: then listed note down and prayed for each one, bidding
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: their souls to depart in peace. Okay.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: Around seven pm, Liz called his pastor, Reverend Ray Winkle
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: at Redeemer evangebl Luthor Church, because that's what you.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: Do a redeemer. Yeah, I know, there's no redemption in
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: this story, guys.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: He said that his family was en route to North
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: Carolina and he was about to join them. He could
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: not teach Sunday school. It is, isn't it?
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, them beautiful church.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: He could not teach Sunday school the following week as planned. Well, yeah,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: I would love to have heard what he talked about
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: the pastor said he would remember the List family in prayer.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: Listen called ed Iliano to keep him from nosing around.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: But did he though?
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: And I recalled Patty's eery words about a family vacation.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: Hmmm. The last task for List was to sit and
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: write the letters on a pad of paper labeled quote
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: a few words from John E. List com a career builder.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: Get the fuck out of here, bro, What are you
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: talking about?
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: That is like the best? Okay?
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, career builder, What you're gonna write your
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: manifesto on? Get out here? What are you talking about?
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I can't even with this guy. So
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: he writes all these bullshit letters and he put the
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: letters into an envelope for Reverend Rinwinkle, all ready to
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: be mailed. Then he wrote a lengthy confession to the
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: pastor because he was the one He was the one
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: person who would understand what okay? He asked that they'd
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: be cremated, as the children had agreed to, and his
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: mother had a plot in Michigan and was to be
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: sent there.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: Now, he says, the children agreed to be cremated, but
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: they told him something different.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: If I remember, yes, they said buried. Okay, I wasn't
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: going to bring that because I was like, oh, did
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: we accidentally.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: Like, No, I don't think that's I mean, I don't.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: I think he did the opposite of what he he
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: was going to do, what he wanted to do.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know why he even asked.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: Him that, to be honest with you or anyway.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: I think he thought if they were cremated, then there
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: would be no upkeep.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: I think, honestly, in my opinion, this is offscre off,
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: off topic here, but I think he did that to
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: his family because they didn't mean anything to him. Where
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: his mom is the only person that ever actually meant
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: anything to him, and so she was going to get
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: a proper burial, but not his family, who have only
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: brought him down, made him less of a man. They
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: are the reason he is unsuccessful in life. That's my theory.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's true. It's my theory. It's
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: with vibes I'm getting from this guy.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: Well, the vibe makes sense to me too. I mean,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about that, but probably for seventy one
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of people weren't creamy.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: No, not that they are now, I don't know if
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: it's an okay for a thing for Lutherans. I don't
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: really know that religion myself, you know, because some are
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: like hard nos. You know, some I don't know. But
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: I would think by the seventies that wasn't a very
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: popular time for no it really do those kinds of things.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: He also mentioned that he originally had planned this mask
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: for All Saints Day, but he had been delayed. Well,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, John, I know why am I telling
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: you this. I don't know what I had to tell
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: you anyway, because you have to know it all I do.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: I do, it's true.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: Then he asked to be dropped from the congregation roles.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: He felt sure that God would forgive him since Christ
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: had died for him along with all other sinners.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, here's something like right before we finish this up,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: can I just say okay? So he said he this
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: is his mindset. And again, I'm not a very religious person.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: I'm not speaking ill of anyone's religion, okay, but according
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: to this guy, all right, he says that God and
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: Christ are going to forgive him for murdering his entire
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: family because Christ had died for him in all their sinners.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: So why was he so concerned that his children and
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: whatnot were going to hell if they were just going
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: to be forgiven for smoking some weed and being in theater, Like,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: what are we doing here?
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: I'm glad to me. I'm going to quote you my
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: favorite quote from Criminal Minds. It only has to make
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: sense to the end.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm gonna go with it, my sense, people,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with this is not a popular belief
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: among these these people that this is crazy nonsense, and
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: it is. But also, but why didn't that apply to
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: your family?
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: Like I don't Well, it's like it's like people who say,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: well against their religion did get divorced. Gosh, they can murder.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I forgot Patty smoked after midnight, which is
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: a devil's hour.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: He's a devil girl, devil girl.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, okay, so let's around this. So, feeling hungry,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: List prayed again as one does, and then made himself
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: some dinner okay, which sorry slowly and okay, more commentary
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: for me because I'm getting off because my brain is
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: just like drop anyway, So he ate some food that
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: he made for himself. He betted down in the billiard
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: room in the basement. Why in the you have fourteen
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: freaking rooms but okayen nineteen well ones occupied in the
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: end and the ballrooms occupied. Yeah, you're got so into
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: another room. The pillared room in the basement is where
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: I want to be, not far from the bodies of
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: his family. And he slept until dawn because he was exhausted.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: When he awoke, he turned the thermostat down to fifty degrees,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: which again I have quite why when did you want
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: it to be higher?
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: No, because the bodies would you don't. They're not gonna
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: It's sort of slow decomp. I know.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: Somebody asked the How to Get Away with Murder book
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: very well, because it would be the opposite. Then he
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: switched He switched lights on in every room and put
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: music on the intercom system, which is so creepy, and
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: he turned it up loud. He also cut himself. He
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: cut himself. Matters all of the photos and the family album.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: The time it must have taken and to be like nope,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: I wonder what he did with all his faces. Did
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: he throw them away? Did he keep them?
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: No? He must have them with him because they didn't
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: have him. That was part of their problem with him.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: We'll find out.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: As like they're like, oh, nobody knows what he looks like.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: Ever, we'll find out Part two.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: Freaking weird thing to do, man, anyway, So he cuts
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: the photos out of his family albums of himself and
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: then with nearly twenty five hundred dollars which is about
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighth and forty three dollars in twenty twenty five
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: in his pocket, some clothes and his suitcase, and with
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: no one left to think about, he drove away towards
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: a new life, as one does.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: Well, here's a creepy thing at Iliano recalling Patty's warning.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: Drove past the house the evening of November not and
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: saw that all the loss were on, and he figured
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: everything was fine, and he drove away.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: I mean he could have stopped anything.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: He could have stopped for what was going to happen next. Yeah, yes,
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: so I'm not blaming that guy. That guy had, I
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: know that's really not with this anyway. But we're not
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: blaming you, bro, Just like how interesting, how interesting? Well
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: with that, that's all we got for you for part one.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: So let's do our closing thoughts and wrap up tonight,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: so we'll start with closing thoughts by Lama. Really, the
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: only thing you need to know about John List is
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: that he was a basic bitch. Okay, he excelled at
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: literally nothing ever in his life, there was really nothing
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: exceptional about him, no matter how much he yearned and
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: probably thought he deserved it. He wasn't a good man, son, friend, husband, father, employee,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: or Christian for that matter. The only reason he was
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: able to do anything that we will be discussing in
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: next week's part two is only because of the time
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: period this takes place. Because, as we all saw, he
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: is an idiot doing what he did. All family annihilators
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: are pieces of shit, and I will give John less
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: credit that in this was the only thing he ever
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: was successful at being in his life. Congratulations John, Yes, John,
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: bravo to you.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: You were at the top of the heap on that one.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: Number one big guy.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what a guy.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: If his life I'd send him a coffee bug number
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: one piece of shit.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: Well you's a problem with doing that, now.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: Make sure to send on Father's Day.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, I mean, what a guy. He's a mama's
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: boy who failed his mama, not that she was terrific,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: but still the husband who failed his wife, father who
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: failed his children. He was just a failure, except as
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: you said, he excelled as a family annihlighter. John, You suck.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: I got to say. That's all I can say. Next
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: week we will see another John who does not suck.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: Help take this loser.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: Now, that's right, Good John, Good John John. Now, before
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: we go, if you like what you heard tonight, be
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: sure to follow us on all of our socials and
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's free. Or if you're
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: listening to our podcast, please download and give us a
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: rating or review. All of that helps us tremendously in
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: getting our channel out there. Now, you guys, next week
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: on True Crime and Wine Time, we will be covering
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: part two of the man who vanished after killing his family,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: The John List Nightmare. And you guys do not want
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: to miss how this concludes. I know we already know
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: he did it, but what comes next is wild. Yeah
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: it is, so you do not want to miss the
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: conclusion to this story. Now, if you need more of
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: Terry's True Crime and I, you can always find us
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: doing something on our True Crime in Onetime YouTube channel.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: Now Terry is out for the next few weeks, so
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: there will be no Midday Missing until September first. But
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: I know they're trying to return with a bang, But
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: you guys, couch Core with Loma is back at ten
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: am Eastern Monday through Friday for the next few weeks.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: We are currently covering the trials of Brooks House and
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: Joseph Lawson, as well as Stephen Lawson. And I've already
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: went on several rants today because I I just can't.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: I can't even there, Okay, I yes, yes, So these
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: are the people who have been tried in the disappearance
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: and presumed murder of Crystal Rogers. If you're unfamiliar with
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: the Crystal Rogers case, I did a huge, very long,
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: multi hour dive covering everything about her case, as well
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: as other unsolved cases in Bardstown, Kentucky. Yes, Jade Officer
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: Jason ellis the Netherland mother and daughter who both of
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: those stories need to get out there more so go
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: to our Crystal Rogers playlist to catch up. If you
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: haven't yet, please like this video, subscribe and hit the
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• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: or drop a new episode. That was really fast. I
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: need to do with that. I want to thank Lady
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: and Gray for being a lovely co host tonight. She's
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: got two under her bell. Good show, You're doing great. Everyone.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: Let her know how she did an amazing job in
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: the comments and is there anything you would like to
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: say before we sign off.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: I just want to thank you again for having me
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: on his co host again. It was fun. It gets
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: a little easier and more comfortable every time, and so
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: I'm going to encourage other team members to give it
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: a try. And I'm spot a couple right now on
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: the chat, but I'm not gonna name anybody, but I'm
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: just gonna say thank you everyone for being here, and
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: good night all y'all.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you everyone for listening and supporting us. Until
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: next time, take care of your mind, take care of
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: each other, and never stop asking the hard questions. Now,
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: go forth and be amazing. Bye, guys,