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Understanding Addiction Through Personal Experience with Jennifer Chase · ABCs of Parenting Adult Children

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the podcast ABC's of Parenting Adult Children.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Please join us as we discuss parenting adult children and the unique struggles that it comes along with.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to ABC's Parenting Adult Children podcast.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, James Moffat.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is the podcast where we explore the joys and challenges of parenting our grown-up kids with wisdom, patience, and a little bit of humor.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh at the beginning of the episode, I need to give you a little bit of a content warning and say that today's episode is about a topic that may be triggering or cause you some discomfort.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: So today I'm joined by Jennifer Chase.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: How are you, Jennifer?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so good.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm great.
• 0:56
  unknown: Good.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is someone who brings not just professional wisdom but deeply personal experience to one of the most complex and emotional challenges many families face: addiction.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jennifer, do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I am Jennifer.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I am a certified life coach who works with uh loved ones of addicts, sort of navigate the disease of addiction.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um I come from long, a long line of addiction in my family.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: So about three or four generations down both sides, my mom and my dad.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: I have a dad that was an alcoholic, died of this disease in 2015, and have uh experienced some trauma through the years uh based on sort of that family structure.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: I became an addict myself, got sober in 2017, and found out just right before I got sober that my son was also struggling with substance abuse.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so this journey has been complex and tricky and messy.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: But that's but that's I guess why it's so important to me to help other people navigate it.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Very good.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm sure that we have people in our listening audience that have either themselves or their adult children, you know, ages between 18 and 30, struggling with some sort of an addiction.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about your parenting story.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: My parents or my personal parenting story?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, your personal parenting story.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it it can also include, you know, uh segue into you know your childhood if you want.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: So my parenting style was that I had felt woefully underprotected as a child.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I experienced some sexual abuse.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Again, my dad was an alcoholic, and I felt very underprotected.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so my personal parenting style swung that pendulum so far over the other direction that I protected my children from doing anything hard at all from the beginning of time.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that that was how I was supposed to be a good mom or a different mom than I had had.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: So for the majority of my children's childhood, so I had a brain tumor when I was 29 years old.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: My kids were about two and five when I got sick.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's when I was introduced to opiates.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I became um an addict shortly after that.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so my children grew up really in me being an addict, right?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: And having chronic pain and experiencing the health issues that I experienced.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so I tried, I desperately wanted to be a good mom, right?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: I desperately wanted to do it differently than the generations before me.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to break all the chains of this disease, and yet I was unable to do so.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so a lot of their childhood, I was absent-ish, right?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: I was there, but I was absent-ish.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: And my my husband kind of took on some of those primary roles.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: But my whole purpose in their growing up was for them to be protected.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately, in that realm, I didn't give them any coping skills or any ability to do hard or figure out how to kind of navigate life on their own.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that you talked about having a brain tumor because uh we lost a daughter to uh a brain tumor back in 2001.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: She had two different types of cancers.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, one of the one of the cancers was fast spreading and uh was wrapped around her brainstem.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the doctor said if she if she lasted 12 months we'd be lucky, and she lasted 14 months.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then my wife came down with a brain tumor back in 2015, back in 2016, lost her hearing and one of her ears.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And she had like, I don't know, three surgeries, four surgeries, three le three rehabs.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I almost lost her back in 2016, but she's alive and well and thriving today, and she's a special ed teacher, and so I'm pretty happy about that.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm sorry to hear about your your I think for me mine was benign, but it had hemorrhage, so there was a lot of damage just trying to get the tumor out because of all of the blood, and it caused nerve damage, and that's sort of how I was introduced to opiates.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: So that was where the journey began for me.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in America we have a you always hear about the opioid epidemic.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that the medical society or profession has come to grips with that to a large degree, and now now you're lucky to get a Tylenol or an ibuproton, much less an opiate.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, doctors are not, they're not they're not as free to to prescribe that anymore.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: And this happened in 2003, right?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: So that was at the beginning, really, of all of the opiate uh crisis.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I was, there's no doubt, I was over-prescribed.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: It from not from a malicious standpoint, but really they just couldn't quite figure out what was going on.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so they were trying to, you know, obviously help my pain.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: But um, this is the truth about it.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Opiates weren't the problem.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Opiates were the solution to the problem.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: My addiction stemmed from the emotional hole that I had inside of me.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: And when I started to use opiates, it was the solution to all of that, not only my pain, right?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like the emotional pain that I had experienced through my childhood.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, they weren't the problem.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the doctors were were trying to do pain management, and and uh I can only you know, pain sucks.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you have a really, really high threshold for pain, you know, you get a toothache and you're like, I don't want to deal with this, you know, and I can only imagine what a brain tumor is like.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that you got better, you know, and that you are past that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: And and the unfortunate part about it was, you know, I found out when my son was 17 that he had also become addicted to opiates based on like from me, right?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: So essentially I had become inadvertently my son's drug dealer.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was a pretty pervasive problem in my home, obviously.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'm grateful that we've walked through it, but you know, learned a lot of lessons along the way for sure.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: So was he going into your medicine cabinet and taking them out of the bottle?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: So we thought we were doing our best.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: We had them in safes or whatever, different places to block the places, but once he became addicted, he became very resourceful.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: And anytime I was asleep, if you will, had overtaken them or whatever, he would come in and and take what he needed out of my supplies.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's tough.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when did you realize your own relationship with substances was a problem?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what did early recovery look like for you?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: I knew pretty early on that it was a problem.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: Knew, well, let me say this about that.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: I knew early on that I was using substance as a solution to my emotional pain.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was, it was when I was taking opiates that I felt okay, right?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: I felt like I could fit in my own skin.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: I felt like I was able to deal with some of the traumas and crises that had happened in my life.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so I knew early on that I was, yes, using it for pain, but I was also using it for emotional reasons.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I used for about 14 years before I got sober.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: Finding out that my son was an addict was the beginning of the end for me, right?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: I wish I could tell you that the day that I found out that was the last day that I used, but that that's not true.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: I used for probably about another six or nine months.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: My son graduated from high school on a Friday or a Saturday, and I checked myself into a facility at the very next day.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't necessarily check myself in to like be sober or be abstinent or be in recovery.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: I really was trying to learn how to use like a gentle lady or get so many drugs out of the house so that he couldn't have the, you know, all the I was trying to still man manage it and still be able to have this security blanket that I had created over the years.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: What happened was that in that facility, I began to learn about this connection piece and this healing piece, this idea that, you know, I used because I was trying to run away from sort of my experiences in my childhood.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And when I left that facility, I realized that the only way I was going to save my son was by saving myself.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: And early recovery was hard, right?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: It was challenging, it was hard.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: It was like walking around with a like just all your nerves exposed because all of a sudden I don't have the only coping skill that I ever used in my life, right?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: Which was substance.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: So when life was good, I used it when it was hard.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so now I'm trying to figure this all out without it.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, and and at that point I had been married for 21 years and had pretty much burned that all down.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: I was, you know, expecting a pretty swift divorce, which didn't happen.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: We figured out how to navigate it.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: But rebuilding those relationships has been very, very, very difficult.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: But I realized that, you know, uh, yeah, it's been hard.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: But what is also hard is being a drug addict.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so I choose that hard today, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: I choose continuing to rebuild those relationships and rebuild trust and and try to sort of change the trajectory of the kind of mom that I was and how my parenting impacted them as kids.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: I try to now reverse that and and and impact them in a more positive way now.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of things out there that you know we can all get addicted to.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's food, pornography, drugs, all kinds of drugs.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Alcohol's a drug, you know, there's a lot of high high functioning alcoholics out there that that are, you know, deep in addiction and don't even realize it.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I was addicted to food.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I probably still am addicted to food a little bit, right?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I in the last two years I've lost eighty pounds and I still have another fifty to lose, but it's uh you know comfort food.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's the thing with uh and food's tough because you have to eat.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right, you know, and I will I'll I always fun-lovingly tell people that God's got a sense of humor because fat people should never be hungry.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: A famine could hit tomorrow and I'd outlive everybody by about eight months.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: As long as I could drink water, I'd I could just you know burn fat.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, God does have a sense of humor.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Humor, I know.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just look in the mirror and go, okay.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, uh yeah, it's it's you know, it's um it's tough.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's tough to be addicted.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think the first step to recovery is recognizing or realizing that you have a problem.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of times we're in denial.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking about my addiction with food.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been addicted to drugs or alcohol or anything like that, thank God.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I uh I can have compassion for people that struggle with, you know, opioid addiction or any other type of drug.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I can't really truly have empathy because I've never experienced it.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've never walked a walk.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: But but I think the I think the first step is we have to recognize we have a problem and then and then reach out for help and ask ask for help and to get outside of ourselves and because a lot of times uh we like to press everything down and shove everything emotionally down and and be in denial and of course the the drug has a grip on you, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, it makes you feel good.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's why people like to drink themselves into a stupor because it makes them feel good and it makes the the problems at the office or in their relationships or whatever, you know, go away temporarily.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I you know, and I think that's what we're I think that's what we're looking for is for, you know, a false sense of euphoria or peace, right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And happiness.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and I say that the the in this I call myself sometimes the neighborhood addict.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: I try to help people get into the brain of what it feels like in my brain.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: But this is the thing, like using substance, the benefits of it outweighed the consequences for so long, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: There were, and and even people around me were like, what what are you doing?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh no, the the benefits of this thing.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: And and the benefits can be emotional.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: They can be, you know, most of the time it's like this emotional sort of baby blanket, if you will, it feels like.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it isn't until the consequences start outweighing the benefits, right?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: Where um where the relationships are starting to suffer or the financial life is starting to suffer and and that scale switches, then it makes any sense for an addict to get sober.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why people say they've got to experience some discomfort.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: They've got it, I don't particularly like the phrase rock bottom, but right, they've got to get there because that's when those scales switch and the benefits are no longer outweighing the consequences.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that can be true for anything, right?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Even food.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna keep eating food the way that I eat it until I start having some negative consequences of it.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: And when that negative stuff starts happening, then I'm gonna change my perspective.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think that that uh we see if we ha walk around with our eyes open, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't ignore everything about uh you know, I'm thinking about the homeless the homeless population in America.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I work I work secure, I'm retired, but I work security part-time at Walmart at night, uh, out in the parking lot, and I see a whole host of homeless people.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm sure that not all of them are addicts, but some of them that I have talked to, you know, I've I try to befriend them, you know, and I ha try to, you know, give them food and stuff and help them in any way just little ways that I can.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, try to be a good human to them, you know, let them know that they're seen and that they're not ignored and that they're v they're valued, right?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I spent time as a homeless person when I was in my twenties, years and years ago.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I guess I have a heart for that and I can empathize with it because I was I was there and I'm a success story because I got out, I got away from it.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: My problem wasn't drug addiction or alcohol addiction, it was pride.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's another story for another time.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of people I talk to, they're like, you know, why are why are why are you homeless?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they're they're like, Well, I lost my job, I lost my house, I lost my car, I lost my family, and here I am, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of a lot of times the reason for losing all that stuff is because they were addicted to something.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and drug addiction, alcohol, drugs sometimes is a root cause for a lot of those issues and problems, and it just destroys lives and uh and it's sad, you know.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think the really I think the really important part for for your listeners or anybody that maybe doesn't understand addiction or does hasn't experienced it super close to them.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like there isn't a drug addict or an alcoholic or anybody in this world, right, that started to use drugs because they wanted to end up homeless without family, with no work in the street or the parking lot of Walmart, right?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like all of us started using substance as a solution to something.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like a hundred percent of us started to use substance because typically something happened in our life or we felt like a square peg and a round hole in our family, or something where substance was the solution to, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: So when you look, see that homeless person on the streets, and then instead of thinking, well, that's just a loser who won't go get a job, start asking ourselves the question, like, what happened to them, right?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why did substance become a solution for them?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: And how do we have compassion and empathy for that rather than look at them as lost, lost people or people that don't want to work or don't want to try, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like we all have a story.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: None of us walked into this wanting to burn it down.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: None of us.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, exactly.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I just think I think we've got to change the stigma, right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: You talk about all of the other addictions, and the truth is if you're a food addict or a gambling addict, have a gambling addiction or a sex addiction, like we are all the same, right?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: I just happen to use substance that was a little less agreed upon for our society.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: But the truth is, if I use anything as a solution to sort of numb and make me feel better, like we are all the same.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: Even a codependent, right?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: A codependent is is exactly the same.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody that has codependency, exactly the same as somebody who is a cocaine addict.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: Someone, some people might not like to hear that, but at the root of it, it is it is the same.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a good segue into this next question.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the biggest misconceptions about addiction in families that you've had to unlearn?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, a lot.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um one of the one of the things about healing as a family through addiction, specifically if you're a mom of a of a child that's an addict, it's very counterintuitive.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: So as a society, we think that helping is like taking something off of somebody's plate, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: So even if you have your next door neighbor that's had a surgery, like I'm gonna help by taking them a meal, which is gonna take something off of their plate, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna make it a little easier for them.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: And the counterintuitiveness of this thing with addiction is that I'm actually making the problem worse if I'm removing anything off of their plate.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm making it worse for me, I'm making it worse for them, I'm making this thing probably go on longer, which is making it worse for me, right?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's some counterintuitiveness about it that has to be unlearned in order to start contributing to the solution rather than the problem.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing that I had to learn personally was that I've got to stop being so pain adverse, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: I've got to start being more comfortable sitting in discomfort and sitting in pain because anytime I start trying to like act out of that, I'm doing it for my own to console myself rather than what's best for my child.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: So what's best for my child might be him experiencing some discomfort.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I have to become less pain adverse and let that happen.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Any other misconceptions?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there's so many misconceptions about addiction.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: If they wanted to, they would.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: If they loved me, they'd stop using.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, I mean, there's so many misconceptions about addiction, and it goes back to what I was kind of saying about the homeless person, which is none of us use because we want to burn it down.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: So if you have a child that uses, in order to have some empathy and compassion about what they're walking through, sometimes we've got to identify that they might have some shame and I might have contributed to it, contributed to it, right?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so I've got to do that in that personal work about my shame in order to allow this family structure to heal.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: Oftentimes when we have a child that feels like sort of a square peg and a round hole, and that's why they've used substance.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like as a family, we've got to stop being, we've got to, we've got to look at this family dance floor, if you will, and decide we're all gonna get off so that everybody feels comfortable on the new dance floor.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that that's hard.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's the misconception that they just need to get sober and then get back into the same family structure.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: The truth is, if I'm going to be in the same family constraints, like, and I'm talking about my nuclear family right now.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: So my mom and my dad and my my siblings, if I'm gonna be on that dance floor with them the way that it was, I'm only gonna be there high because I can't be there sober.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: So either we all get off and figure out how we do this differently together, or I have to be high or get completely off and and leave them, right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's the idea that we we've got to like the addict's just gonna get sober and get back on this dance floor is a huge misconception.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is a family disease.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: We all either contribute to the solution or the problem.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: And in order for one to heal, we've all got to heal.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: So were you able to not confront, but were you able to talk with your father about your childhood trauma and and get that worked out?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: So my dad died of alcoholism in 2015, and I got sober in 2017.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh I was never it was kind of it wasn't ignored, it was talked about, if you will, but it wasn't openly taught.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like I will never forget the time he was in the hospital and he was going through some mixed things, and I told him I'm not leaving until I tell the doctor that you're an alcoholic.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: And he said you need to go change your plane ticket and go home.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, Well, I will, but not until I tell the doctor you're an alcoholic, right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like we we talked about it, but not in a not in a loving sort of healing way.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Additionally, I was never able to confront my grandfather who had sexually abused me either.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um Um, he had died in 1994, right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: So long before I had kind of started to do this work.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I've had to forgive both of them.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I have forgiven both of them again, not because either, well, my I loved my father.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: My dad was was my my person, but I have forgiven a lot of people in my life that actually had no business being forgiven.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I did it for me.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: I did it to not allow them sort of that power over my life anymore.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: And my grandfather certainly fits in that category.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I've been able to, I've been able to forgive all of that.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: And the truth is that I believe very strongly that God walked beside me in all of my childhood experiences to get me right where I am today, right?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like I don't have the influence or the credibility or the experience of being able to help other people walk through this if I haven't gone through all of it.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: Even the sexual abuse, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: Even, even all of it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so you can't you can't have that perspective and not have some gratitude about it.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you define codependency and how can loved ones of addicts start healing from it?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: So codependency is when I am meshed.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: So if somebody says to you, are you good when they're good and you're bad when they're bad, if you can answer that question and you say, That's true for me, right?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm good when they're good, but bad when they're bad, then there's probably some codependency, which means that I am a meshed in and do not find delineation between where I end and they start.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: And not only that, I am removing things off of their plate.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: I am trying to add, what's the word I'm trying to think of?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm trying to make it better for them in order for me not to have to experience discomfort.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so anytime, let's say your child has uh a consequence of their addiction and they become homeless, and I immediately move them into my home, right?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because I can't deal with the idea of them being homeless.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's an example of what codependency can look like.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I do it for all of the same reasons that I actually use substance to feel better, to feel like I'm in control, to not have to deal with my fears, to not have to deal with the real work, my life work.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the important thing about codependency is we are manifesting exactly what we don't like, or exactly what is causing us discomfort and pain by enabling and rescuing.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so it isn't until we can unamesh, if you will, or become our own version of our own self and allow our loved one the consequences or the full weight of their life that we can start sort of finding our peace.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: What are some signs that someone is losing themselves and trying to save another person?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: What's your anxiety level?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what what how much sleep are you getting?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: Are you constantly worrying about what some where somebody is or what somebody's doing?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: Are you following their location?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: Are you driving by their work?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Are you waking them up in the morning to make sure that they go to work so that they don't lose their job?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Are you paying for their hotel room when they have no interest in working?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Are you enabling the relationship with their kids?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: So are you taking the kids to them?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Are you keeping the kids yourself so that they can see their child more, right?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, are you doing all of these behaviors to make it less hard for them or trying to control an outcome of keeping them off of the bottom?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's when you know you are slowly losing yourself in this deal.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: If you ask yourself, like from a scale from one to ten, how much peace do you have right now?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: And the answer is like negative four or even like below five, then you've probably begun to lose yourself in somebody else's addiction.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the tough thing about that is is that parents love their children, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they they want the best for them.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: They want them to have, you know, the best life possible.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And despite our best efforts, we don't want to we don't want to see them hurting.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to see them homeless, we don't want to see them addicted.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want we certainly don't like to see them in the hospital, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's I think it's ingrained in us as parents to be the protector and to be the fixer, right?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's that's the counterintuitiveness that I spoke about, right?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when we've got to switch our mindsets about how I am contributing to the solution rather than contributing to the problem.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because you're right, it is ingrained in us, and it's and it's hard to switch that perspective because when they're two or five or six, that works, right?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: Protecting them is what is required.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: And and the problem is when they're 25, that changes, and that mindset actually does more harm than it does good.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know or we talk about this on our podcast a lot, uh, that parents and children transition side by side most of the time.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or they should be.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: It should be a parallel track.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Our kids are preteens and become teenagers and become and they're 18, they're 20, they're 25, 30, god forbid 40, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and at the at the age of 18-ish, uh parents should it's no longer a parent-child relationship.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's a you're a mentor and a support person.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: You're not power differential changes.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because they they are their own, they they should expect experience their own autonomy.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: They are their own person, they're adults.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've spent the last 18 years teaching them life skills, hopefully.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've hopefully been modeling all those things that we want them to learn.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, grace, peace, love, kindness, gentleness, you know, certainly not anger, certainly not jealousy, certainly not all these ugly emotions that we all see and experience in our families.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Despite our best efforts, right?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're all human, we make mistakes, and we sometimes we react as like our parents used to react when our kids come to us and say crazy things like, Well, I don't identify as a male or a female, I am now binary.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm now one of the alphabet kids, you know.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm I'm using that as an example because one of my sons did that to me, and I was like, Whoa, okay.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't flip out on him.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was a little bit sad about it, but you know, I was like, you know, I you're my son, I love you.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to be happy, I want you to be fulfilled.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm who am I to stand in judgment of your lifestyle?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: That that's between you and God, and you and God can figure that out when you get to that point, right?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not my job.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And where was I going with that?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, uh Yeah, we love our kids and and and oh yeah, I was talking about how we become a support person, we become a mentor, and we we need to let our children experience life to the fullest.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, sometimes they may be under our roof, sometimes, you know, sometimes they'll they go to college, they go to trade school, they try to rent an apartment.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Life is hard, it's tough, it's expensive, it's exponentially more expensive now than it was in 1980 when I graduated from high school, right?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have a lot of parents that have boomerang children, you know, or whatever you want to call it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Kids that come back to the nest because they just can't make it.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's no fault of their own.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they graduate college with this huge student debt, you know, you got you know, you got all these deposits you gotta come up with a pet deposit, an electric deposit, a water deposit, a gas deposit.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: All these freaking you know, it costs like three thousand dollars just to move into a freaking apartment.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and they don't have they don't have those funds, you know, because they just got out of college.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're just now starting out in life, and they're starting starting at the bottom of the rung, you know, at the bottom of the ladder, and they're making entry-level pay, you know.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's no shame in having your kids move back under your roof uh because you love them and you don't want to see them living on the streets, and especially if it's no fault of their own, right?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and of course, that also requires you to set some healthy boundaries.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just because they're coming back home because they can't afford to live out on their own doesn't mean that you should provide everything for free for them.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because guess guess what?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: One day mom and dad are not gonna be around, and then then what are they gonna do?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Who it's not bad.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and I think it's interesting to look at this.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I also think this is interesting to look at this from an individual perspective, right?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: So so I think you can agree.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm if I'm parenting my children the same, then I'm doing both of them an injustice in a way, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because they're different individuals that need to be parented.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: They each have different strengths and different weaknesses.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's true when you're looking at when you're talking about even moving them back home to look at it from an individual's perspective rather than across the board, this is what I do for my kids.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think for some of them, you're right.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I'm giving them an opportunity to kind of get their feet underneath of them and I can set these appropriate boundaries, and this can be a step up.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: But I think for other children, it's enabling and rescuing them from an experience that they're having in their life, that there needs to be a lesson that's learned here rather than me trying to help.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think it's it's we've got to get out of the one-track mind that I treat everybody the same.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I gotta look at this from an individual perspective about like what is part of the solution for this one could be part of the problem for another one.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: But I want to say this because you're talking about this power differential that switches when they're, you know, around 18, if you will.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: We have an epidemic right now in this country, specifically of boys that are starting to use marijuana or substance around the 14, 15 year age, right?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: And as parents, this is incredibly difficult because obviously they're using substance.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: We're still legally required to take care of them.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard to hold boundaries because some of the boundaries are like you can't kick them out, right, when they're 15.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: But it's changing brain chemistry.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of studies going on about what marijuana specifically is doing for these kids.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I can speak for my son.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: So my son started, I think, he won't give me the exact age, but I think it was around 14 or 15 when he started smoking marijuana for his mental health.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: So he struggled with both anxiety and depression.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then he transitioned, well, added really my opiates.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: So started with marijuana, ended up in opiates.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: And he is now 26 years old, and he reported to me about six months ago, he's like, I finally feel like I'm becoming an adult.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like he spoke about how um slowed he felt like his progress was into adulthood.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that can be hard as parents because they're 18, right?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: But yet they act like they're 12 or 13, or they're stunted in a way, and was so, so challenging.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it was incredibly hard to switch that power differential when as a parent I knew, and the child felt like they are still probably 14 years old.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: Incredibly challenging.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we all know that that boys or young men develop slower than the women do, mentally speaking, their cerebrum or whatever, the development's you know, much a little bit slower for some reason.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: It takes us guys a while to catch on to it.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: You get there eventually.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, eventually.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Most of you.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: Most of you get there eventually.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna tell you, between the ages of about 18 and 26, I was a dumpster fire, a raging dumpster fire.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Three platoons of uh fire hoses couldn't have put me out.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was a screwed up mouse.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: But uh thanks be unto God and his grace and mercy and and and some miraculous healing took took place.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because I had a horrible childhood.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh anyway, that's an another story.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I understand I was there, you know.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, it's life is hard and you just yeah, you just have to, you know, and it takes a village, you know.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Parents need to understand that it takes a village sometimes, you know.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and it does.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: And and as a parent, I don't want to do anything that's gonna slow, like I want this dumpster fire to be over at 26.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to slow the progress of the dumpster fire.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not, I don't want to add fire on this dumpster fire, and so we're still doing this at 35 or 40.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: And oftentimes parents, because of their own fears and discomfort of watching their child go through this dumpster fire, they're actually fueling it unwittingly, like not on purpose, but what's happening is they're fueling it, and then we're now into our 30s.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: And Lord knows we've heard of parents who've have 40 year olds living in the basement, right?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I have a I have a lot of clients that that, you know, 45-year-olds are still experiencing many of these deficiencies that they experienced when they were 18 to 26, experiencing dumpster fires, right?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: They're still doing it.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's a a twofold problem.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of starts with the parents when they're still living under the roof, right?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, preteens, teens, early twenties, whatever.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: But at some point it's like the the not only does the power struggle change and switch and we become a mentor and a a support person, but at some point the the adult child needs to take responsibility for getting in that fire hose and putting the fire out themselves.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: They may need help doing it, you know, and that's what we're there for, you know.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: But but at some point they're gonna go, you know, this fire's starting to hurt, I'm I'm getting blisters, I'm getting singed, I'm not happy.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to put the oh look, it's a dumpster fire.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to start putting that damn thing out, you know.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: And uh But if your parents are there with the hose all along and you don't know how to actually grab the hose and put your own fire out, then when they when they drop the hose and say it's on you, then you've got to learn how to pick the hose up and how to put the fire out, right?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's that it's that tricky power differential change and the parents really allowing ones to put the fire out, and the confidence that that gives your kid, right?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I did it myself.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, I don't need you anymore.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: I just figured out all how to do that all on my own.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's the important journey.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see what does setting boundaries actually look like when someone you love is still using or in recovery.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the important thing about boundaries to know is well, let me just say this.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: When I was in an addiction, I was a very black and white thinker, right?
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: So you hear it's like I'm either all in or all out.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm either like completely sober or I'm using an entire bottle of pills.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like very addicts are very black or white thinkers, good and bad kind of folks.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I got sober, I tried to live more in the grave, right?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: I tried to live with less rigid thinking.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: But this is what I have to say about boundaries.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: Boundaries are rigid.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: Boundaries are black and white, especially when you're talking about um helping somebody that has an addiction.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: So let me give you an example.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: If you have a child that's living in your home and it is important for your piece for them to be home by midnight, that means 12 o'clock.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: If they come home at 12.01 or 12.02, they are past curfew, right?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: And and the reason why this is important is because the way my addicted added my addicted brain works is that if you are okay with me being at there at 12.02, what you're saying to me is you gotta what I I got a shot to moving this boundary, right?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: So the next time it's 12.05 and the next time it's 1215, and then before you know it, you're sitting up at one o'clock and your loved one is still not home, right?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's the way my brain works.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we're setting boundaries, there are two things that could not be more important.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: Number one, they are rigid.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: Number two, if I'm not willing to hold to the boundary 100% of the time, it should not come out of my mouth.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, for instance, again, if I go back to this other boundary, if curfew is 12 o'clock and you're home at 12.01, then you're going to have to move out.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Then a hundred percent of the time I have to be willing to stand, stick to that boundary.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: What happens oftentimes is it's like, I'm not kidding, next time you're really gonna move out, right?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's like when our kids are two and we're like, I'm gonna count to three.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm not kidding.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna count to three this time.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm not kidding.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: Really, you're gonna have to, right?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's that same idea.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: And what happens is we're manifesting our own hell because what our addict hears us saying is they're never gonna hold to this.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have to listen to a thing they're saying.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: I just need to adhere to this for a little while to appease them, and then I'm gonna start pushing the boundaries again, and they're never gonna stick to it, right?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: So the two rules if you're gonna hold a boundary, you gotta stick to it, and it's gotta be concrete.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: I tell this story, I have a client who is and uh has a 45-year-old son.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: Her grandkids and her son live at her house.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: She makes a lot of decisions based on fear and she's not ready to kick them out.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so we're trying to figure out like what boundaries can you stick to, right?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: 100% of the time.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: And she landed on I'm not doing your laundry unless your socks are unfolded.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: And she started there because that was where she knew I can at least start the forward momentum of him understanding that when I set a boundary, it's I mean it, right?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then she gained the confidence to be able to then hold boundaries that were a little more maybe important or pertinent in her life.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so don't even don't let it come out of your mouth unless you're gonna hold it.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do you help clients shift from guilt and control to self-trust and peace?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: So the word guilt is tricky because a lot of the times what we mean mean by guilt is actually shame, right?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, guilt, if you think about it, is like if you yell at a taxicab driver and you point your finger and you go home and you're like, oh, I was acting outside of my core beliefs and my core values, right?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: I have some guilt about that.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: Shame is this internal feeling of not being worthy or not being lovable or not being enough, right?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and so those two delineations can be important when we're walking through addiction.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: But how do you do that?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: You understand that that work is a you problem.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: And regardless of what my loved one does, that work about guilt and shame is a me problem, and they aren't responsible for it.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: They can't get sober and deal and that all of a sudden heals my shame.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: I might think so, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: But that's that's not truth.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: So my peace lies in my life work or my ability to do that work, and I should be able to find, and I hate the word should, I usually will find peace whether my addicted loved one ever gets sober or not, ever finds their own peace or not.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so that shift is it's like it's a if they get sober, I will find peace, is incorrect.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: I can find peace on my own, whether they ever get sober or not, by doing the internal work.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times it starts with shame.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's very good.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Two more questions, and then there's gonna be a test.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm kidding.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm ready.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: What do you say to someone who feels like they've tried everything and nothing is working?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great question.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: Usually, when somebody says nothing is working, it's because they're trying to do all the things to fix it, right?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like nothing's working.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: I try to let him live in my house and and he's still not getting a job, or like nothing's working that I'm doing, right?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and a lot of the times the answer to nothing working is stop trying to get everything to work, stop allowing or stop trying.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I think about this.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: If you think about pain tolerances, so as an as an addict, we have tremendously high pain tolerances, and and most of the time that's because we're using substance, right?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: So my pain tolerance is like an eight.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_03: My mama's pain tolerance, or as a mama, my pain tolerance was like at a four, right?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: It goes back to we want our kids to be happy, we don't want them to experience hard.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: And my pain tolerance is at a four.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: The problem is because my pain tolerance is at a four, I never let my child get to an eight.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I say nothing's working, it's because I'm trying to fix it at like a five, six, or seven, and they're not appreciating it because it's not an eight yet for them.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so usually what is required is to step out of the way and and let that pain tolerance meet them at the eight.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when when they experience enough enough discomfort or what they're doing no longer works for them, that they will start solving their own problems, right?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: This goes back to the the fire hose that you and I talked about.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: We've got to let them figure out how to make it work for them.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, last question How has your experience as a daughter, an addict, and a mother shaped the way you show up for others today?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that question makes me just about emotional, if I'm being honest, because The empathy and compassion that I have for other human beings given the walk that I have experienced.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: My dad, I said this a little bit earlier, but my dad was my guy, right?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like my dad, and I think that that's one of the things that created some trauma for me in my life was I didn't know how to make sense of his erratic behavior.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like sometimes he was my guy, and sometimes he was, you know, a abusive sort of drunk.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so those were those were hard to reconcile.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: But I have such deep compassion for people that choose substance as a way to deal with their problem, right?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like that choose substance as a solution.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so I walk through the world now, at least try to.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: I walk through the world now curious about why people choose particular behaviors rather than judge them for the behavior.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: I hope people give me the grace, right?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like I hope people understand that I became an addict as a way to resolve what was going on in my soul.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so I try to give people the grace now walking through the world.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: And look, the place that I need to do the most work is when I'm driving a car, right?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like I have a hard time giving people grace when I'm driving a car, but I try.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that that's the lesson that I've learned is like we're all doing the very best that we can with what we have.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: And my prayer is that, you know, when we know better, we do better.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: But for some of us, that takes a while because we've been through something pretty hard that we have ultimately found a solution to.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it isn't until that solution no longer serves us that we start doing the work to find our way out of it.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: So now's the the the time during the episode that I give you a few minutes to talk to uh my listening audience and leave them with whatever it is you want to leave them with.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: I want to leave you with parents.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: I want to say that perfection is not required.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: Perfection's not required for us as humans, and perfection is not required of our children, right?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not talking about perfectionism as your room is clean and your clothes are such in your closet, right?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm talking about perfectionism in the sense that I need to be perfect in order to be loved, seen, liked, and heard and valued, right?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: That isn't required.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so I had to start giving my kids the grace of not being perfect, right?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I had to start identifying that there I wanted them to be perfect because it was a reflection of the kind of parent that I was, right?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: And my own value.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I started allowing them to be something short of perfect, I started to allow myself to be something short of perfect.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: And when we can do that, we start living this authentic, spiritual, beautiful experience as a family.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that's hard work from a from a parent from a parent standpoint because I get it, right?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: I I want my kids to be the best versions of them, not only for because it's what's best for them, but because it's what's best for me.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: And when I started to realize that that was a me problem, I started to set us all free from that expectation or that idea that perfection is required.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's not required of you.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: And in order to allow ourselves to fall short of perfect, that is where grace comes in, and that is where faith comes in, and that is where love comes in, and that is where peace lies.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we can start doing that work, then we can all find peace.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a wonderful ending.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I know my listening audience probably did too.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that's gonna be a wrap for this episode of ABC's Apparenting Adult Children.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: I hope today's conversation gave you some encouragement and practical steps you can try in your own family.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you found this helpful, would you do me a favor, hit that subscribe button, share this episode with a friend who's also navigating the parenting journey, and leave a quick review.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: It really helps others find this podcast.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also love to hear your stories.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: How are you working through these challenges with your adult children?
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Send me an email at talkpac at proton.me.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's talkpac at proton.me.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Common spelling.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or connect with me on social media.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Links are in the show notes.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: And Jennifer, I really appreciate the work you're doing and thank you for sharing your personal stories of the things that you've gone through individually and as a family.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just so happy to hear that uh you've gotten some healing and that you are paying it forward and you're helping others walk through the walk through that journey as well.
• 51:32
  unknown: Thank you.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the listening audience audience, I want to say thank you for the privilege of your time and thanks for listening.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, parenting doesn't stop when they turn eighteen, it just changes shape.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: Please tune in next week for another episode of our podcast on parenting adult children.