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The Power of Self-Advocacy & Neurodiversity with Mother-Son Duo Valerie and Philip · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Inchtones podcast. I have a mother and son duo here today, Valerie and Philip. They have come into my life initially through my desire to help be an advocate for as many special needs mothers as possible. And Valerie is a very seasoned veteran of an advocate and community leader and highly respected attorney of over 30 years of experience within special needs planning and guardianship. And when I connected with her from the legal standpoint, I realized that her story as a mother to children with their own learning disabilities and special needs for their learning became why I wanted to hear more about the specific journey of hers as a mother and advocate. So thank you both for being here today and thank you, Philip, for being willing to share about your personal history and self advocating.
• 0:59
  Speaker B: Thank you to be here. If I can, you know, say something that'll help someone else in the future, you know, I'm glad to have the.
• 1:06
  Speaker A: Ability to do so well that. That in and of itself is. Is such a gift. So thank you. Philip. What was it like growing up understanding that you maybe learned different, had a different process for understanding educational subjects years, and you were being supported by different accomm. You know, how do you feel that that grew in time? Like, where did you feel that you felt comfort in self advocating? Where did that begin?
• 1:35
  Speaker B: It came with a smaller group, you know, because in the general, like, classroom, I'm personally also a little bit introverted, so it was a bit harder not only to self advocate but to even ask questions in class. And so when I was sort of put into a smaller group, it was a lot easier to, you know, get more personable with the, with the teacher as well as, you know, self advocate and ask questions. And I just felt more comfortable that way.
• 2:04
  Speaker C: And I think it's a pro. I think it was a process and it's, it's as a parent trying to figure out how, how much to push your child to advocate for themselves. I know that Phil and I had many conversations where, you know, things were not going where he wanted to go. And I'm like, you have to ask for help. You have to advocate. You have to go ask to stay after school. Ask the questions, don't be afraid. And it was a process and like, exactly what he's saying he was, it was not a comfortable thing. And, but he did, I think that he did eventually start to see that, okay, when I do ask for help and I do get this help, it does help. And I think just working through that was, was probably where he started to say, okay, well, yeah, this is uncomfortable, but I'm getting the help I need. And my grades are improving, my understanding's improving. And so the next time, it became easier and easier.
• 3:05
  Speaker B: I think, when. When people started, you know, sort of pointing their attention to me and saying, hey, like, what do you need? Like what, you know, what. What do you think? You know, could. It would help it, you know, it would then make me think and experiment and sort of see, like, okay, what works and what doesn't. And then, you know, after that, you start to build, I guess, study strategies, strategies for. For different things. You know, as long as. As long as I'm able to ask the questions about myself, that'll help me improve. I think that was probably the biggest help that I've.
• 3:38
  Speaker C: I've got.
• 3:39
  Speaker A: You know, self reflection is one of these, like, topics that I believe is so baked into neurodiversity or neurocomplexity is that if we can get really quiet with ourselves and say, I know this doesn't fit the norm, or the environment is telling me that I shouldn't need this, but I still feel like I do and I'm going to be vulnerable enough to ask for it. That is such a strength. I hope that you see that in yourself. And it's such a strength to be supported by a mother who also said, yes, share with them that. Tell them that. What did the support as you learn to talk more about what would help in classes or at school or activities, what would be an example of something that maybe is specific that you could share, you know, whether it comes to maybe a math. Math or a specific subject, just to get the listeners to understand what that actually might look like.
• 4:33
  Speaker B: I mean, I had this one teacher who was a reading teacher, McDonough, if you remember. But she, I mean, she would look at articles online. She was. She was an English teacher, so she ended up reading a lot. And she found a bunch of studies and articles about, you know, I guess, how to keep focused in studying. Because, you know, once you start studying, maybe the first 10, 15 minutes, you're very focused and, and like, dialed in. And then after like 20 minutes, you start to decline. And, you know, she said, hey, you know, you know, what you should do instead is, you know, spend 10, 15 minutes focusing on whatever you need to focus on and then spend, you know, five minutes doing something you enjoy or going for a walk and then coming back. You know, I still use that to this day, you know, especially studying for finals when I have to study like seven hours a day. I can't. I I'll eventually end up on my phone or doing something that I don't want to be doing, but I'm so scatterbrained that I like sometimes I don't even realize it. And I think that goes for most people, not even people who have accommodations, you know, So I, I think that finding things like that is pretty crucial in success in a classroom setting.
• 5:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, I was gonna say. And it sounds like that's carried into your own life, like outside of school.
• 5:52
  Speaker B: Carried in the work environment. I had an internship with Anthony at Ameriprise. I had to cold call and you know, I'm not really great on the phone and I'm not a wonderful communicator. And so I was nervous and I would mess up all the time.
• 6:08
  Speaker A: You're a wonderful communicator. You are an incredible communicator. So let's reframe that because you even being here right now proves more to the entire world that you are probably light years beyond what most typical 21 year olds are. But continue.
• 6:25
  Speaker B: Well then let's just call it a snow.
• 6:27
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 6:30
  Speaker B: I did this internship and pretty much I would get spreadsheet of like a thousand people and I would just have to go through and call and you know, I would get scrambled in my words and what I was saying and I would end up, you know, messing up completely. And eventually it's like, okay, I have to get up, I have to go take a walk and I need to come back and look at it with a clear mind and fresh eyes. Really?
• 6:57
  Speaker A: That's phenomenal. Again, I think it shows that of symbiotic relationship of the self advocacy, accepting the thought process of teachers. Like you're saying you're one English teacher sharing with you, hey, have you tried this? And I think a lot of neurodiversity, learning disabilities are grounded in finding success in staying curious to the possibility of how that student might learn and not sort of shutting that down, shutting down the lack of ability to learn, but what it can look like if we try something different. You know, curiosity has become my, one of the buzzwords of my own advocacy because hearing stories of mothers that are like your mom and having you as a child, there's nothing that I can say to your mom that would ever take away from your mom being your mom and the first advocate for you. And I think we need to believe mothers and what their children are presenting because we're the first ones to accept, accept and receive that child as full and human and what they do present and then say they need more help with X. The self advocacy portion comes in and that broadens the ability to have educators and people in the community and future employers to say, this works for me. And it worked because someone took a chance and said, have you thought about trying it this way?
• 8:15
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's such a. I think a lot of this in how your child gets the help they need. I think, and we've discussed this, I think a lot of it has to do with approach.
• 8:29
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 8:29
  Speaker C: And I know people who've gone into IEP meetings making demands and making accusations. My kids are thriving. What you're not doing enough. And instead of really having a level of respect for the educators and the fact that they have a lot of students with a lot of issues going in there and asking, my child is still struggling with this. What do you think we can do? What do you think makes sense? Trying to be collaborative and respectful gets a long way. And he has had teachers that have gone the extra mile for him, first of all, because he's who he is. He is. I know he's going to be embarrassed now, but he is an amazing kid. He's respectful, he's endearing, he works hard. So when you have that already put, you already put him in a better place. Because his teachers wanted to help him.
• 9:29
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 9:29
  Speaker C: Because he. Because of who he is. And I think that they were also more open to the things that I would suggest because I was respectful and I deferred to them and I asked the questions and recognize the fact that these people went to school to learn how to educate children with special needs, and that's why they're there. So I am not someone who knows better. I want to know what you think. And I had spoken to you about the example about when Philip has a. He's got a working memory executive functioning working memory disorder, which makes memorization incredibly difficult for him. He needs several hits of the SAC information to commit it to memory. And when he was at that age where they were trying to teach him his multiplication, it was like he was putting. Banging his head against the wall. It was incredibly frustrating. And then it just. It just dawned on me, like, why am I doing this to him? Like, why are we trying to make him memorize something that he can use a calculator and he can get onto the math concepts and he can under. Just work on understanding the concepts and not worry about memorizing things that are not needed to be memorized. So when we went to that IEP meeting, I was like, listen, what do you think can help because this is something that is building frustration. It's shutting him down. It's making him not want to. It's making. Eventually we all use a calculator. Would it be possible? And so when you present it in that way, making it their. Their. A collaboration and almost their idea and asking them what they think would work as far as the end every, you know, that respect and that collaborative mindset I think got us very far.
• 11:11
  Speaker B: I learned. I learned a lot, especially in, like, math classes. I mean, still to this day, I, you know, with memorization, it's not the greatest, right. I can't. I can't just, you know, do multiplication, everything with the snap in my fingers. But I think I do believe that, you know, everybody has their strengths and weaknesses.
• 11:29
  Speaker C: Mm.
• 11:30
  Speaker B: Mine is. Is concepts and conceptual learning, and I'm able to pick up on concepts really quickly. But when it comes to memorization, it's like mom said, driving my head into a wall. And, you know, I realized in these. In a lot of the classes that I had math classes and specifically high school, you know, I would see kids catch on to concepts and memorize things with a. Like a snap of your finger. And this is. This is in, you know, you know, my classes, where it's like, a few people and, you know, everybody has, like, a long list of accommodations. And, I mean, as soon as I started asking the question, like, why is he failing all of his classes? Clearly he can understand this, and clearly he gets it very quickly, but why is he failing his classes? And then you. You get to know the guy a little bit, and he's really good at sports or he's really, really good at video games.
• 12:22
  Speaker C: Mm.
• 12:23
  Speaker B: His, you know, like, life at. At home isn't the same. You know, his parents don't really care that much because he's probably gotten into this new state of normal, which was failing. So now that he continued to fail, it didn't really matter to them.
• 12:36
  Speaker A: It compounded also.
• 12:38
  Speaker B: But I think that the most important thing is, is interest and in a child. And you look at them and they might be really good at video games or really good at something else. And I think it's because they got this. Their own belief of, you know, I have these IEPs. There's no changing that. There's nothing I can do to make myself a smarter, a better person. And then they sort of fall into that mindset where it's like, there's no point in trying because I'm already, you know, not the. Not the smartest person in the world I already have these issues. Nothing's going to change that.
• 13:11
  Speaker A: And I think I, I was going to not to interrupt. I wanted to show you that it's so reflective. I think of a lot of mothers with younger children who always want their child to be seen as a whole human right like you as a whole young boy learning with diagnoses or you know, executive function, working memory, you know, inability to retain information did not change that you were still whole and had the ability to learn. And I think that that's why.
• 13:42
  Speaker C: I.
• 13:42
  Speaker A: Hope that the public school systems, you know, in New Jersey and New York and all across the country take stories like yours to say it's looking at the whole child and it's something that I'm so passionate about with children with non speaking autism is that the school that they attend now is a private school but they take into account everything that you just said about being it not being a detriment or not being that you're not doing something. It's how can that child learn what environment is the child in. And the classic, you know, sort of cheesy quote, I'm sure you've seen it floating around Valerie, on social media for moms and advocates is you don't change. You don't tell the flower to change. You change the soil that it's in.
• 14:23
  Speaker C: Right. And I, and honestly I just, I got like goosebumps when you said that because really and this is and we've had this conversation how I I dislike listen, they're arch. There are humans that have real innate disabilities and developmental delays and but I do believe that that has to be used with caution because we need to look more about not that someone's unable to learn or unable to get a concept. It's really how do they learn.
• 14:55
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 14:56
  Speaker C: It's not looking at their ability. It's learning at how do they learn better. How does. How does information processed by an individual what information? How to present the information so that they can learn. Philip is a highly intelligent human being and he has been even since when he was little he would be able to and his sister, he's got two sisters. He's got a twin. So we neck and neck with things and Ava is mainstream. She's brilliant. She's got graduated high school with a 4.3. She's incredibly artistic.
• 15:27
  Speaker A: What an underachiever.
• 15:29
  Speaker C: Right? She's so she really if she's she, you know, so. And then fell past their is isn't is sitting side by side with this and but he would Be able to pick up any type of a toy, any type of a mechanical working thing where Ava could stare at it and never be able to figure out how to use it. He would pick it up and like, yeah, so everyone's got their abilities, everyone's got their gifts, and. And it's a matter of teaching in a way that someone knows how to learn. If somebody has an auditory processing disorder, which Philip does, he needs to not just hear things. He needs to hear it, he needs to see it. He needs to be able to listen to the teacher when the teacher speaks and then get notes. Because if he can't take notes and listen at the same time, he can't learn that way. So it's understanding that and being attuned to how does your child learn? Not that he is unable to learn, not that there's a learning disability. It's a learning difference. Learn differently. And that is, I think, so important.
• 16:28
  Speaker B: In this conversation, when you mentioned that, I had a. I had a conversation with one of the. One of the educators at my school because I would have somewhat of an issue with paying attention, writing notes. And I'm finally, at that time where, okay, I'm in engineering school, I kind of have to figure out, you know, the dynamic of, you know, how I'm going to take notes, how I'm supposed to learn.
• 16:51
  Speaker C: Kid who's got trouble with math. As an accountant.
• 16:53
  Speaker A: Yeah. As an engineering. Yeah. Like, my head's about to explode. It hurts. The word engineering hurts my head.
• 16:59
  Speaker B: Phillip.
• 16:59
  Speaker A: And my parents were both engineers, so I.
• 17:01
  Speaker B: But, you know, I would spend an entire class either not taking notes or take notes and not really paying attention, which both had their downsides, right? So if I was paying attention or trying to pay attention for the entire duration of a class, I can't do that. Right. I would wander off, my mind would wander, and I would. There would be, like, gaps in what I know and what I don't know. So it was kind of hard to then, you know, put in those pieces. But when I was paying attention, I was able to recall things that, you know, a lot of other kids weren't able to pick up on. You know, vice versa, same deal, but taking notes. Now I have something to look back on to. My handwriting's not that great, so it's kind of hard. But then I'm not paying attention the entire time, so it's like, okay, what do I do? How do I fix this? When I'm trying to pay attention the entire time, I can't, because I'm. I'M scatterbrained and I just, like, I drift off all the time and when I take notes, I, I can't catch everything. So what do I do?
• 18:00
  Speaker C: Right. And some of the things that we had said is that he can get notes ahead of time to review them so that he knows what to expect during the class and also. Or get notes after so that he's got, he can sit, so he can listen.
• 18:14
  Speaker B: Well, what I ended up doing was, was yes, it's beautiful to have the notes of like, just, just to have them. It's probably the, the biggest weapon in my arsenal in terms of college and learning. But the trick that I started to try to implement, and it was really just experimentive because I'm my own person and it's going to be different for everybody. But I, I try to take little amounts of notes, like just big topics and stuff like that, trying to just, you know, jot down something so that I'm still there cognitively, but, you know, but I keep myself, keep myself alive.
• 18:52
  Speaker A: Like, oh, you know, there. This is what this segment for two minutes was discussing. You write one word down, right?
• 18:58
  Speaker B: Exactly. It's something that I can, I don't necessarily need to look back to because, you know, usually I'll have the notes from a professor and sometimes I don't, so I can, you know, write my own partially and get, get the missing pieces from other people. But I think the most important part is that I'm paying attention for the whole duration. And so I actually use notes as a tool so that I can pay attention for the full duration and that I don't, you know, wander off and miss gaps and stuff like that.
• 19:25
  Speaker A: Well, you're giving an example that I actually use theoretically to the companies I talk with about including neurodiverse individuals in the workspace.
• 19:32
  Speaker B: That's interesting.
• 19:33
  Speaker C: Which is.
• 19:33
  Speaker A: No, it's so interesting that you say that. And I'm so glad that it just organically came up because when I'm asked, well, what does that look like? What is it? What exactly, Sarah, can we do to help our teams that might not have a person that self identifies as needing a different kind of support within the workspace? And I always say it will never not help the team. If you give everyone the agenda and notes with some sort of visual ahead of time, it'll never not help. Because if there's a person in there that's like, I don't need this, then they don't have to look at it, they don't have to reference it, they have it, it's received and they can bring it into the meeting. But for those that might not even be aware that they need that something that is, that can be anticipated to help them in the meeting to take something off of their mental load like you're sharing with the note taking ends up being a process that the entire team benefits from. Even if an employee does not self identify or self advocate, there's no reason not to. There's no reason. There's no down. I would say there's no downside.
• 20:36
  Speaker B: No.
• 20:36
  Speaker C: And that's why people like you are so important. Because I think that a lot of times and after my kids graduated, you become like this expert. You become this expert and what do you do with all this knowledge and everything that you learned about how to advocate with someone who's got issues. And I would, of course, I've had friends who knew my experience with my kids and that would ask me like, what should I be asking for? And I've done that. I've actually toyed with the idea of going into education law and switching gears. But I feel like what I do is more helpful. The special needs planning, you know, the angle that I work with families, I think is very important and it's something that I have a passion for, but it's knowing what accommodations are even available. Do you know that you can have a note taker? Do you know that you can ask for video? Do you know that you can ask for notes ahead of time? It's actually knowing what accommodations are available to even know what to ask for. And that's how, and that's, that's, that's part of how I was able to learning what accommodations are out there so that I know what I can ask, what is even appropriate to ask for my son. Because you're like, oh, they're never going to allow that. A calculator. Okay, well, you know what we need to ask for and that's why someone like you is so important.
• 21:57
  Speaker A: Well, I think we have a lot. I don't know why, I'm not sure why this is. And maybe this is generational from, you know, I was born in 1983 and how I was raised through the 90s or and then having children in the, you know, 2012, 18. What I wonder is why we have so much anticipatory anxiety about asking for help or asking for support. And it's become a cultural thing corporately in America and within the, the typical educational system is it's seen as, for some reason that it's going to be this massive energy consumer. Right. Like, oh my God, we have like, we anticipate that the help and the support is going to be such a sucker, like a ninja siphoning of this energy from a boss or a professor, when in reality it's actually not that much of an energy disruptor. It just adds a small amount of perceptions shift or a perspective shift and that small amount ends up benefiting the whole in ways that almost compounds that small amount of energy that was used.
• 23:07
  Speaker C: Yeah. And I'll take that a step forward further and, and say that if you're giving children what they need, it takes energy, it gives back energy to you because you have less time that you need to spend helping that child.
• 23:21
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 23:22
  Speaker C: You're not going to be like this child needs help, this child is failing. What are we going to do? If you give them what they need, they thrive and they, they flourish. And it actually in the long run helps you as a teacher and as an, to be able to know that if, if I just give this kid what he needs, he's gonna, he's gonna run with it. So. And that is, it is. And you, you're saying you're born in 83. I graduated grammar school in 83. We're much different. But I come from a generation where not only asking for help, but I have so many relatives that have without a doubt ad were made to feel stupid and unfocused and lazy and all through their childhood that carries into adulthood that feeling that they're not capable or they're not smart. And some of the most brilliant people that I know and, and that was just not something that was recognized. So it's, it is really amazing to know that someone like my child is, is going to be a mechanical engineer where if he was born at a different time, he would not have been able to achieve that. It wouldn't been. It would. There wouldn't be. He wouldn't be. Have been given what he needed and there would be this idea that he lacked and select which is incredibly.
• 24:38
  Speaker B: Well, that would probably be the biggest thing is self doubt. I think that you know, in my, my time living that there's so much power to like what you think and what you believe and it kind of controls us in a sense. But most of it is actually just lies.
• 24:55
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 24:55
  Speaker B: It's just a matter of how we manipulate them to our benefits.
• 24:57
  Speaker A: Tell ourselves exactly what is the story you tell yourself about yourself.
• 25:02
  Speaker C: Right.
• 25:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:03
  Speaker C: 21.
• 25:04
  Speaker B: I mean I think that a lot of the accommodations that we have shouldn't even Be accommodations, especially if we're trying to, like, in general, you know, optimize learning in a sense. Like, okay, teachers have their teacher notes and why. Why don't they just coach them? Right? It benefits everybody. There's no point in that. And, you know, I think there's this sort of preconception or notion that, you know, students need to be taking their own notes in order to actually learn and stuff like that, which it's not true. And maybe that's just, you know, I don't know, change of resources or change of time.
• 25:40
  Speaker A: But I think it just comes down to when we're. When we're given the ability to recognize our wholeness of how we learn and how we partake and how we contribute, the things that we might perceive as being. This negative connotation alongside the word accommodation ends up opening up the system of a classroom. The students, the teacher, the corporate environment, the team, the employee, the conference, whatever it is, those small adaptations to anything. Being accessible is never the wrong choice for. For a team, a family, a group as a whole. It always ends up broadening to accept the fullness of each person that is a part of that group. I. I'm sure, you know, Valerie, I'm sure that you see that and can say, have myriad numbers of examples of it, because I see it live every day and how my children, when they're accepted and when they show the world who they are, I believe them. So we constantly just correct and it helps others in being and living. So, you know, Philip, I say thank you so much for sharing how you're sharing, because while it is your life and your experience as Philip, as the son of Valerie, what you're showing is that that dyad of mother and son and then that family unit, how that went from the two of you to expanding into your own self and the choice and. And what limitations that you were freed from because you were you over time realized it wasn't really. This isn't really accommodation. This is just who I am and how I learn best and how you now have ownership on becoming the best version of yourself. And now mechanical engineering gives me hives.
• 27:27
  Speaker B: It takes time, it takes people, and it takes perception in the sense, you know, like even just a calculator for, you know, math classes, you know, everyone's kind of uphold, you know, why are you using a calculator? But without a calculator, I wouldn't be able to do. Am doing a lot of the classes wouldn't be a thing without a calculator. And we wouldn't be able to get to the heights of education that we have now without that tool that was actually looked down upon previously. And I think that using tools to our benefit is just what should happen and not. Not, you know, should be, you know, scoffed at.
• 27:59
  Speaker A: People used to tis Google. Remember when Google came out, Valerie?
• 28:03
  Speaker C: And everyone's like, you're cheating Google.
• 28:06
  Speaker A: And you're like, well, that's. That used to be the Encyclopedia Britannica set that I had.
• 28:11
  Speaker C: And yeah, and gosh, that was a whole thing.
• 28:13
  Speaker A: It was a whole thing.
• 28:15
  Speaker C: Had the sets in our house. But one of the things I like to, to just share with Philly is about him is. And he, he just, he gets like. I know he gets embarrassed about this, but I, you know, I, we've discussed this. I do, I know that I have been a very strong advocate for him. I think that. And maybe that be. It's part of who I am and also maybe has something to do with the fact that I am an attorney. That when I became aware that Philip had an issue, it was like, okay, what are we going to do? And how am I going to make sure that he gets everything I need? And it was, it was not easy. The schools did a great job with him, but there were things that they wouldn't do. The auditory processing and following up with different. What else can I do that the school doesn't have the resources to do? And having health insurance is a lot you can do. You can get a lot of testing done with some with health insurance. But as. As time went on, he deserves so much credit because it was his work ethic and his drive and listen, it wasn't an easy thing. He did feel very badly about himself when he was younger and it did require me to encourage him and show him and tell him all of his strengths. But he had to become. He had to believe that himself. That's what he was talking about, that self perception. But the interesting thing is that when he, when he was in high school because he took special education classes, he was never able to take the classes he need to even apply to become an engineer. Right? So that wasn't even on the table. He couldn't take, he couldn't take the maths and the sciences required. So when he was still interested in that field, we came up with this thought that he would go undeclared because he didn't know what he wanted to do. And we settled upon tech education that he. I always thought that he'd be a great teacher, especially special education because of everything that he's been through. And so that was his, his class. And then he was just like last year is like I don't want to be a teacher, I don't want to do this, I want to be an engineer. And he went to his department head and the department they told him well you should probably stick with this because it's going to be very difficult for you to get into an engineering program. We don't let people switch within. It's like you have to be accepted in when you start college. You know, you can apply but if it doesn't work out and this is really what you want to do, you may have to go to another school. And he has a network of friends, relationships that he built. And I know personally I'd be like, I have to leave all my friends and go someplace else and start fresh. He was like, well that's what I'll do. Then he's like this is what I want to do. This is what college is for. This is who I want to be. And I'm not. And I was okay, let's do this, whatever you want. And also in my heart this hesitation because of my own fears of what that would look for him and what he was going to be able to do and he's having such a hard time with math, how is he going to do engineering? And he just was not having it. He applied and lo and behold he got into their engineering program which is almost unheard of. And when he told me I was a little hysterical crying but he wasn't giving up on that. Like he, the way that I found.
• 31:44
  Speaker B: Out was funny actually. What the way that I, I was like, okay, the like cuz I switched my mind pretty much on a dime and I sort of was headstrong about it and there was a reason for it and I mean it's, it's funny and it's stupid but you know, when we were I think in, in like middle school or something like a very, very long time ago, we, we actually wrote a note to ourselves like our future selves. And I hadn't read it because I didn't really care but I was cleaning out my room and it was just, it was in my closet and so I, I picked it up and I read it and it said I asked myself if I was going to be an engineer. And I think that I, I, I asked that question without the self doubt and other beliefs that I had. You know, bunch of other people's opinions and thoughts and you know, feelings were like okay, you know, I Engineering is off the table. I can't do this. And then, you know, I, I get, yeah, I get a note from myself without any, you know, I guess, self doubt. And I was like, you know what? Let's just do it, whatever.
• 32:55
  Speaker A: Because you, that. That has been a part of that has been something that has been yours and yours alone. And you never were challenged and nothing was going to challenge that, you know, previous version of you. You know, we're all these little nesting dolls of like 6th grade Philip, 7th grade Philip, you know, all these different ages and times that to be validated by a former Phil Philip is really. I can only imagine it was so encouraging for you and probably not impulsive. You probably came back to yourself.
• 33:25
  Speaker B: I just started laughing. Really?
• 33:27
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 33:27
  Speaker A: I bet you're like, oh my gosh.
• 33:29
  Speaker C: And that's where, that's where he taught me. Yeah. A life lesson. Because I, in my own. I remember when he was, when he was little and I first realized that he has such significant issues. And it was significant. He would not understand the difference between breakfast, dinner and lunch. He couldn't remember the names of simple things that we use every day. And I was like, to be perfectly frank, I was like, what is his future gonna look like? Like as a mother, it's like, oh my God, what is this future going to look like? And even when he was teetering like, okay, engineering. And I'm like, oh my God, like, how is he going to do this? He struggles so hard with math. And of course as a mom, I have to be. Go for it. Do what you. You believe you can do. You have to take. Take the chance. But I felt the doubt. I felt a doubt. And he proved me wrong. And it just showed me, he taught me such a life lesson that, you know, if you want something, you don't look at the obstacles. You look at the pathways that you can take. You look at the. And he did it. And here he is.
• 34:35
  Speaker A: Well, Philip, you remind me of, I'm sure your mom. I don't know if you've ever read any of you know, Bruce Lee or follow his, you know, Eastern philosophy on anything, but it's all about be water, right? Like there's all these, there's going to be all these obstacles that come for all of us. But if we can be water and flow around them and not meet every rock with such head on friction, we just sort of go. We flow with what's coming our way all the time. That life becomes more of an acceptance to just what is of the person. And that Those obstacles become just things that we get to move through. And so I think that you were innately doing that and you got to show your mom that she can do that too.
• 35:15
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think what. Because just hearing that, like for pretty much the first time, I think it sounds sort of like creating a new norm for yourself.
• 35:22
  Speaker A: Absolutely. Living it and living it. I can't thank you enough, both enough for this conversation. I believe that everyone's life and lived experience as an individual and as in a family unit, as a mother and child. Because even as you, you know, I know you're 21 and you are a baby adult, I always say that, you know, parents, we might get to age as parents, but our children are always the baby version of the earlier version of who we all are. You know, you are an adult and you get to benefit from having such a wonderful advocate and guide and then also be your own, which is you. You are going to teach the world so much with this episode. And I just am really thankful for how you shared so openly.
• 36:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. I can only really speak for myself in a sense, but, you know, if that resonates with somebody else, you know, that's for the better. Awesome.
• 36:16
  Speaker A: Well, Valerie, thank you. Thank you for birthing this amazing human. What would be one small tiny inch Stone. That's my term for a small victory in your life recently. What would that be?
• 36:28
  Speaker B: I think, I think it aligns with sort of something I said before and that was interest. As long as you're interested in something. I mean, I don't want to elaborate too, too far because this is the end, but you know, I've. With getting shut down and you know, I guess the education system, weird and it's kind of niche, but I like playing video games. Takes a certain level of intelligence and, and self reflection. As long as you are interested in something and be capable. Exactly.
• 36:56
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 36:57
  Speaker A: Well, thank you very much for your time. I know you're going to help so many with this episode.
• 37:02
  Speaker C: Thank you so much for having us. I think it's. It makes me happy to. To know that his experience might help somebody else. And also I just think that he's such a. He's, you know, he's. He's such. Such a good example of what is possible and being the best version of yourself. Well, thank you so much for having me.
• 37:23
  Speaker A: Thank you.
• 37:24
  Speaker B: And you have a wonderful support system at home.
• 37:27
  Speaker A: You are very lucky. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, until next time. Thank you again, Valerie and Philip. Until next time on the Inch Zones podcast.