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Narada Michael Walden · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Such Podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: My guess is NARDA. Michael Walder, musician, producer extraordinaire. You
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: have a new album. Why now it feels good?
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Man? I still up my jesues, my vitality, I still
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: feel sexy. I still feel young, like nineteen vibe coming down.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: And I love to sing and play. So it's just
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: my offering to the world to always keep music in
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: the world. It's my job, it's my passion, it's my
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: lift for so it makes me feel good.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but the game has changed since you started,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and it's much harder to get recognized. How does that
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: feel in terms of recording it, you know, and getting
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: the music heard?
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Well, the recording is the same, the process. I enjoy
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: making the songs, producing records, do what I do. You're
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: right about the actual game how to get heard. So
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I just pimped YouTube, Spotify's whatever there are out there,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: and whatever radios are kind to me to play me.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: I want it all. But you're right.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I don't have a big major, you know, pumping it
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: down on the hour hour.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: I missed that tremendously. I really do. Okay, you have
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: a track on the album That's Got Superstars, Sting, Stevie Wonder,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Carlos Santana. How did that come together?
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Oh God, bless you, thank you so much. Yeah, this
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: song I kind of started working on years years back.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: It's a process. Carlos Santana inspired me with this African music,
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: and I took one of those ideas I heard and
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: then made a new jam called the More I Love
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: My Life, and I asked Carlos come play on it,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and he did. And when playing with Carlos, I got
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: the inspiration to have Stevie Wonder do harmonica work with me.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: So I made spaces for Stevie and get Stevie right away.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: I then went to New York to do a rainforest
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: show with Sting, one of the I do like thirteen shows.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: One of those shows, he came early. I said, come in,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: come in early. It's like, have you record a vocal
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: on this song I've got for you.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: He was very kind.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: He came in the studio Jamanndricks's studio, Let's Letric lady
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Land Studios, and just sang it quickly, beautiful harmonized little thing,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: and we were so happy with a good sound. I
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: then went to Los Angeles where you are, I think,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: and got Capitol Studios Stevie Wonder. He came in with
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: a box of harmonicas and found the right key for
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: the song. And then when they started hearing what the
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Carlos was playing, what was going on, then he kind
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: of little the fire started doing these amazing things on harmonica.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: So it just kind of came together magically. But now
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: it's the right time to put it out. I thought,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: didn't want to wait it longer, and I found a
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: partner named Leno nort Nicolosi, who's just a good cat
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: to kind of bounce my ideas with and keep us
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: sounding kind of fresh for now, and that's what we did,
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: put it together for now to come out.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So I'm happy that. Well, let's go to the route.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: The song is inspired by another song, right, yeah, yeah,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: tell me about that.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, there's a cat named Ishmaelo with two French
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: cats that put together the song very similar, and Ishmaelo
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: inspired me so much. In fact, he's singing something on
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: this version. I want his voice for that Africa connection.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's all it is. It's just like a
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: beautiful melody I loved and to put my own lyrics
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: with a cat name Jeffery Cohen, who helped me compose
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Freeway of Love for Rutha. Franklin's a great lyric writer.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: We put together a new idea around this idea we'd heard,
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: and that's the more I love my life exactly as
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: it is. The more I love my life, the more
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I feel your kiss.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: This is the message. So how do you know these people?
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: How do you know Carlos? Oh?
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, good question. I've met Carlos and I was like
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: about damn nineteen years old because I came to mah Vishnina.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I wanted to become a disciple of of of Guru
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Fishtration Moy with Mahavish and Jah mcglalklin for the spirituality
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: of the love, so I wouldn't die. My heroes were
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: like Jimmy Hendrick's Okay, that's my hero and my generation
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: could could die so easily. So when I heard John
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: mcglalklin playing his music with Marvish Orchestra in Harvard, Connecticut
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: with Billy Cobbham, just on fire and so pure. And
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: when I met John that night, he told me it
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: was largely due to his prayer life, his meditation life
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: that was helping him. And I said, yeah, I know.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I see on the back of your album Jackets, these
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: poems by your Guru. He said, I'm going to see
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: the Guru at six in the morning in Queens, New York,
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: and I'll tell him I met you. And from that
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: moment I got a phone call back, like maybe like
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: a week later, he said, come meet the Guru. He'll
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: be in Norwak, Connecticut. Go meet him. I was very
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: surprised at Marvis dud this great man would call me. Anyway,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I lived way up in the woods in Canaan, Connecticut
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: with another band called the New Maguire Sisters, which was
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Ralph armstrong On based with some bad cats. But anyway,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: when he called me, I was so surprised. Look Abraham
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Lincoln calling me. He called me the phones that come
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: come to meditation. I wanted to meet meet, to meet
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: the Guru. I became a disciple that night. It really
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: inspired my life to kind of feel like I had
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: been found by the Mavish new his teacher to inspire
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: me and kind of keep me going. And not long
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: after Johnson's come from visit me in Queens, I went
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: to Queens and when I went to Queen's to go
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: visit him. Out of his house walks Carlos Santana, and
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: of course we all know Carlo Santana, so it's a
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: big to do to meet him. And he was also
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: a disciple and we've been friends ever since seventy three.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Actually, okay, how were you with the gig? And how
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: did you meet John McLaughlin?
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Very sweet, thank you. I walked in the gig. I
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: had a limousine driver named Greg Fell, our manager had
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: an old limousine drove me down from Canaan, Connecticut to.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Heart for Connecticut.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: And when I got there, as God would have it,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: there was a bright shining light on the stage and
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Mab Schnu with a double a guitar was going at
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: it hardcore with Billy cobbmon on drums in some odd
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: meter of nineteen whatever.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So incredible to this day it stained my soul, the
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: power and the magisty of what they were doing, just
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: the two of them. And then they would stop on
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: a diam if they wanted to, and go back at it.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: And I was so meserzed.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: I went right down to the lip of the stage
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: to look up in his eyes and see what's going on,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: you know, is it memorize what's he doing? And I
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: see his eyes back in his head, and then I
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: realized it's just like he's in a trance and these
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: notes are like bullets flung out a guitar, just channeling
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: his higher being and that's what he was doing.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: That so turned me on.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I said, this is what I want to do. I
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: want to be able to do what I see him
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: do tonight. Just channel my higher being what he's doing.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: No drugs, you know, no no LSD, no more, no
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: more stuff, just pure, pure soul, pure God.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: And uh.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: That night in the audience, I met a disciple I
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: could tell his all white, had shorty air.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: His name was a paik Shah. He recently just passed away.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: But in the audience theory was and I said, hey,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: I have to meet meet my Vishnu. I met Anna Carmel.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: I did another disciple in Florida when I was living
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: down there. Hook me up so I can just go
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: backstage and meet him. He said, okay, wait and I
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: waited and he came back and got me and I
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: went back in the back stage area and there was
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: like two little rooms back there and on one other
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: room which is locked off. I could hear Cobbin Janhamer.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Those cats just talking high energy talk like coal trane talk,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: you know, McCoy tyner talk, just you know, really high.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: And then poked his hat out and said, wait in
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: that small room right there for me. So I waited
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: in a little small room and then when he came in,
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: it was life changing. His face was so beautiful and
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: his speak was so English slash black mixture. I never
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: heard anything like it. How are you, brother, I said,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: I'm really great man. My name is Michael Walden. I
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: played drums. I want to be like you, and I
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: just told him, you know, so that's how I was
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: able to meet him.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Are you still a disciple today?
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, the Guru has passed on, but in my heart
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: of hearts, the messages I've learned are with me every day,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: which is very simple. Just to have more love, more
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: love and compassion.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: You okay, the Guru gave you a new name. Tell
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: us about that.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Well, that didn't come to like later on by I
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: would have long time to get a name. I became
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: a disciple, you know when I was like, you know,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: seven seventy three, and then I didn't get a name.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Like seventy six, just before my first solo album, Garden
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Love Light, I already made wired all the Mafish orchestras
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: I had no I was Michael. He said, at the
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: time is now for you to receive your name. I
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: never wanted to spoil you, but the time is now.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: And he said it's called God's hour. This is God's
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: hour for you to receive your name. And when he
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: gave him my name, I was kind of like, like
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: very prayerful, and he started chanting like.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: No row.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Dum this when on round and round and round and around.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: I didn't know if my name was my name is.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Nah Rah or dah until he said Narada Narda, your
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: soul is sweet. Your soul brings from heaven to Earth light,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: delight and compassion and takes back to Heaven from earth
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: earth sufferings. Throw yourself into your music. Throw yourself into
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: your music. And then he said the name Narda was
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: a name from a sage to a sage who lived
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: in India who had three different Indian incarnations. You want
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: to hear about those, yeah, he said, Narda's soul first
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: was a young boy. He lived in the woods, with
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: his mother, who served the hermits. She served the hermits
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: their food as they would meditate and pray, and Narda
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: would help serve the food. And Guru said, one day
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: the mother died of a snake bite, and the hermits
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: took Narda in and they taught him how to pray
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: and meditate. And Guru said, the first time that he
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: learned to pray and meditate, he had a vision of
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: God in his heart. He said, it never happened again
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: in that lifetime, just that one time he had a
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: vision of God in his heart. Then in the second
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: lifetime he came back to the planet as Narda again.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: And then Guru said, temptation really caught him. In this lifetime,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: he had fifty wives and they drove him crazy. Then
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: he went back to heaven. After that lifetime, he said,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go back to Earth anymore. But
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: then God said, no, you're going back to the third incarnation,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: and this incarnation you'll be Narda. But I will give
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: you spiritual music to play on the vina. I'll teach
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: you spiritual songs to sing. And then Guru said, in
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: this lifetime is the lifetime that became more known for
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Narada as far as the blacka ba Ghita come. You
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: know stories how it could appear and disappear. And then
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: he said, I want to tell you one story about
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Narda in this lifetime, as far as the third incarnation
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: of Narada and waiting for God's hour, so he said,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: one day, Narda was walking along the road and he
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: saw a very austere man meditating in preys by a tree.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: And the austere man recognized Narda, and he said, Narda,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: on your way back to heaven, would you ask God
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: about my realization? And Narda said yes, I will. And
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: then Nada walked further along that road and he saw
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: kind of a crazy fellow, a lunatic fellow, and the
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: crazy fellow kind of jokingly asked Narda, Oh, Narda, on
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: your way back to heaven, would you ask God about
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: my realization? And Nada said yes, I will. So then
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: when Nada went back to heaven, God said, tell the
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: first austere gentleman, very good news for him. It is
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: only a matter of thirty short years and he would
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: realize me in this lifetime. But tell the lunatic the
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: crazy fellow, tell him that as many leaves as are
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: on the Tamarin tree where he's standing. That is how
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: many lifetimes you will have to take to come back
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: to earth before he will realize me. So Narda goes
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: back to Earth. He's walking along that road again. There
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: he sees the austere gentleman. He says to the austere gentleman,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: I have very good news for you. The good Lord
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: has said it is only a matter of thirty short
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: years and you will realize me in this lifetime. And
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: the man said, you mean it will take me thirty
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: more years of meditation. That seems to be such a
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: long time. Then Narda tried to explain to him that
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: he could easily do this, that thirty years would go
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: by quickly, he would have a good time meditation and
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: see God in this life.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: But the man wasn't happy with this news. The austere
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: gentleman was not happy with this news.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Narda kept walking down that road further and then he
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: sees the crazy lunatic, the crazy fellow, and the lunatic
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: again jokingly says, so, Narda, did you ask God about
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: my realization? And Narda said, yes, I did. Do you
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: see all these leaves on this tree, on this on
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: this on this tamarin tree. And the gentleman said, yes,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I do. I see all the leaves. And Narda said,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: as many leaves as are on this tamarin tree. That
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: is how many lifetimes you must come back to the
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: earth before you ever realize God. And Lunsik said, you mean.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I will realize God. He started dancing.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: He started singing very soulfully that Narda told him one
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: day he realized God. This so pleased God watching this
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: whole thing unfold, that God granted him instant realization at
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: that moment. Then gru said, this is the story of
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: waiting for God's hour. God's hour is now here for
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: you to receive your name, Narda. So this is how
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: I received my name Narada, which means supreme musician.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, what is Shri shin Moy's basic philosophy basic religious philosophy?
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Schrechin MOI comes from ponditary India in the Shri Rabindo Ashram,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: raised in the Ashram. And it's love, It's bakhdi, it's
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: bacta yoga, it's love. He breaks it down into love, devotions,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: surrender to God, the three steps to love God, to
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: have devotion to God, have surrender. So it's looking at
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: life in that regard of love, which is the most
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: important of all devotion. To have devotion, and then surrender
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: is really for me being happy, being happy with my life.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: I feel like when I'm happy, my sail is up.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I can catch God's grace. I can feel the love
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: and work with the love and be inspired to talk
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: to you. Now, Bobby, be inspired talk to you. I'm
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: looking forward to talking to you.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Is this the same God that other people pray to
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: in other Western religions or Eastern religions. Is it all
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: the same God or a different God?
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Well, God is God. But you know we look at
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: God in different ways and that's all good. So you know,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: in fact, Groom, I say, God could appear to him
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: as a child. God can appear to him as a
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: old man. God can appear in different different forms. But
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: the creator, the energy of God is one one source.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: And I look at like spirituality and religion. Look a tree.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: A tree has many many branches, you know, Buddhist and
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Protestant and Catholic and all these different ways of looking
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: at God, Muslims. But then guruus say, aspire to be
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: one with the roots of the tree. So no matter
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: what the branches are, you still have love and see God.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: So this is where I'm coming from. My life is
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: spirituality to love God in all forms. But the Creator
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: that I love in.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: My personal heart inspires my music, inspires my life, inspires
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: everything I do. Okay, if you go back to this era,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: you were a follower of the Guru. So was John McLauchlan,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Carlos c and Tiana Pete Townshend. Are they all still
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: followers now?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Mavish Knew is very much in touch with the same
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: spirit of Guru. He'll ask me, am I talking to
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: the different disciples or you know how I'm doing in
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: my spiritual life. So he's still very conc connected, and
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: so is Carlos. Carlos will put out aphorisms of Guru
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: with some music going on, and he's very much talking
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: to me about the things he learned on the spiritual
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: life in the Spurgi of path that was life changing
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: for him. Pete Townsend, you mentioned he was never a
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: disciple that I knew of. I went and saw Pete
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Townsend with who at Madis Square Garden. John took me
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: to go and see him and I met him. Now
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: in my life, but he wasn't a disciple, but Mavish
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: knew was clearly there, very voted and Carlos Santana's well.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, So that gig where you go to see the
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: mahel Vishnu Orchestra, you're in a band at that time, Yes,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: I am.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: The band at that time was called the New McGuire
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Sisters with Santa Churan on guitar, a brilliant guitar player.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: We'd flown Ralph Armstrong in from Detroit who was about
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: sixteen seventeen years old. He was brilliant on piano. Another
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Captain Detroit and Billy McCoy and we had a little
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: manager and we'd rock out every day in our barn
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: and this barn was incredible. We could just like take
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: an inspiration from Mavis Schnorkers, taken inspision with things, be
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: loved whether whatever they were, and just you know, hone
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: our crafts and get strong, build our muscles. Playing in seven,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: nine eleven different times of signatures with the funk and
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: I can develop myself as a drummer. So it's really
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: important to have that that time in my life.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, And what was the status of the band.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: How successful were they?
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: It was trying to become successful with a cat named
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: TiO Massaro, who was the producer for Miles Davis. But
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: then that never really worked out, and that was part
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: of my frustration. I kind of felt like, how am
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: I ever going to make it? Am I ever going
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: to make it? That was always my prayer, how will
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I make it? Because I really want it to be,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: you know, able to make a living with music and
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: not just struggle.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you're originally from the Midwest. I am from
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Klamua Zuo, Michigan, Kalamazoom, Michigan. And what kind of circumstances
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: did you grow up in? Uh, circumstances. I'm born in
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two April twenty third, and we're not raised
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: with like a lot a lot of money, but there's
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of love.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: My mom was aldost a six. In her family, they're
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: very music driven. They love music. My mom aunt Mary,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: the twins Vicka and Valerie, Edgar and Travis, they love
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: the music and they're always playing the music. And that's
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: where I got, uh the inspiration to hear the music
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: so early in my life, hearing Nina Simon when I'm
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: four years old, cannibell Adelie, you know, Dave brew Beck,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Smith. Everything played in the house, even Everly Brothers,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Patty Page, Okay Cod Johnny Mathis. Everything is being played
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: all the time. That was so important for my life.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Then my dad was eighteen years old when he had me.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: My mom was nineteen, and he wanted to be a drummer.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: But he was a drummer. But he wanted to be
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: a drummer. So he'd bring him an album of Max
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Roach versus Buddy Rich so I could hear that kind
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: of thing going on. So we weren't raised over like
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: a lot a lot of money. In fact, they were custodians.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: They would clean buildings. My grandfather would clean all the
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: buildings in downtown Kalamba Zoo. But I learned something from
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: that watching them and working with them, how to be efficient.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Boom boom, boom boom, get things done quickly, make things
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: clean quickly, do things quickly, which has served me to
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: this day as a producer. But that's how I was
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: raised up in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: And how many kids in the family. I'm the oldest
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: of six.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: There's me, there's Ron, who's passed away in Heaven, Cavin
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: whos passed away in Caaven, Chris has passed away in heaven.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: And then my two sisters, Yolanda and Edie. Yolanda flies
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: for the Alaska Airlines, and he is a doctor out
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: here for children.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: And what did the rest of them do in their lives?
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Oh Ron was like a carpenter for a long time,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: then became a bartender, had.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Some issues with alcohol, and the Good Lord took him
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: out of here.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Kevin, my brother, Kevin, was a manager for me for
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: a long time, worked at worked worked with me very beautifully.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: When I was doing my Wooden Houston stuff, you know,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Shanny Schwolson stuff, havivn Campbell stuff. We went to Japan
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: together with a lot of a lot of great things.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: My mom kind of passed away, which he looked after
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: my mom. I kind of felt he kind of lost
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: some business inspiration and he went to heaven.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you're going to school, Yeah, what's that like.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: You're a good student, you're a popular kid, you're isolated?
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: What kind of kid are you? In school?
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: It was all hard. Studies were hard. We went from Kalamazoo, Michigan.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I moved. See, I did my kindergarten first half a
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: first grade in Kalamazoo, then moved to a place called Plainwell
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: the second half of first grade. And that was a
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: very strange kind of period of the way out in
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: the country, you know, realizing I was in the same
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: color as everybody else. That was first when I heard
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: the N word out there, It's like, wow, what is
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: all this going on? But I fell in love with
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: some of the kids in the school. A little girl
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: in particular, was so beautiful. So I went to the
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: public school from in Plainwell second half of first grade.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: In all second grade, I fell in love with my teacher,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Missus Prowdy. She was so beautiful. Then from third grade
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: to eighth grade, we had to take a second bus
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: to go to a place called Otzigo, Michigan for Saint Margaret's.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: That was a Catholic school. We had massive morning you
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: pray every morning, and I prayed for drum sets. I'd
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: bring my drum magazine, prayed for the drum sets, you know,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: greens or red, sparkle whatever. So that's how I was
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, making it in my life.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Then my grandfather was really kind to me for the
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: one hundred dollars bill in sixty one sixty two bought
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: my first drum set, a bass drum, a snare drum, cymbol,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: cow bell and woodblock, and that really freed me. I
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: really had. I was so looking forward to to the
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: drums I could just play. And then for Christmas they
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: got a high hat, so that was also very very important.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, so how did you know you wanted to play
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: the drums? Oh man?
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Born and born to play music. You don't understand me.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: When I'm little, I watched record spin and just be
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: hypnotized watching the record spin, or stare at an album jacket,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: you know, a woman dancing to the mambo or whatever.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Or here Peggy Lee and you're sharing, you know, the
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: beauty in the in the beat. Or just tap along,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: get a pie, ten, get a box, play the Nimon's
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Laba town all play along with horse silvers, six pieces
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: of silver. There was a cat out of Detroit we
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: all heard about named Lewis Hay. He'd be eighteen years
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: old when I'm four or five. He was, and they
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: would say he's he's a hot new cat. So I
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: just try and play.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Along with him.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: So that's how it always was just music all the time.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: My family loved it, loved it. You understand when you're
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: hearing the radio even twisted and shot by Oisley Brothers.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: He'd be like life changing the sound of the record.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Small things are big things, and don't forget in Michigan,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: the snow, the cold. You know you're indoors, so you
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: find things to do indoors. So playing on, playing music
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: and playing the piano very important. And then I have
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: to also say to you, like different sides of me,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: one side by be hearing like the who I can
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: see for Miles and Miles get a little guitar player
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: over the basement and bash with him. Then I'd have
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: another friend and kalamazoo. My little black friend, nam Joel Brooks.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: We put together a little group called the Ambassadors. He
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: played like Oregan. I played drums. We'd do like our
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: little Jimmy Smith stuff. And his uncle would own a
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: night club call the Ambassador Lounge where I can go
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: in there and kind of play for the people before
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Jim McGriff would come in or whoever's gonna come into
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: town to play. So early exposure in my life that
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: was really important, really important. Little talent shows. Yeah, okay,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: are you self taught her?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Did you take lessons? I'm I have a god gift
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: of it, of it a natural thing.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: But then I learned snare drum from a cat named
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Tom Carey downtown Kalamazoo at Bobby Davidson's music store. Tom
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: carry be downstairs and he would teach me the rudiments,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: you know, five stroke, seven stroke, you know, paradittals, and
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: how to strengthen my left hand.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: So that was important.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: And then I found another teacher on the north side
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: kalama Zoo named Harold Mason. He then became the druman
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: for Stevie Wonder and he would teach me independency. He
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: would say, there's a book by a cantnamed Jim Chapin
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: called the Blue Book of Independency, and I need you
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: to break your mind up so you can do change
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: jan and changeing with your right hand. And then when
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: your left hand play against it whatever it is written
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: out different things against it, so you're playing two different things.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Then you incorporate your feet into it, you know, you
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: bring your basetrum into it, you bring your high end
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: to it, and now your brain's thinking four different ways.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: So he was hero Mason was instrumental in breaking up
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: my It's called independency. So I could be free on
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: four different things, and if you sing, it's five. So
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: I have to have to give a lot of love
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: to that time of my life, which is hard to
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: kind of master, like riding a bike. But then once
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: you kind of get it, it feels good to you. In fact,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: if I'm honest with you, it's just now my life
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: that I'm kind of free with it.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: I could take all those lessons in me and be
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: free with it. Yeah, okay, so you're playing When do
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: you start playing out with other people? How old are
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: you with the Ambassadors of the eleven got eleven? Yeah, eleven.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Do you finish high school? Yes? I do.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I left home though I left home my second, my
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: junior and senior years of high school. I left home
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: because I needed to kind of just branch out more now,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: and I worked at a place called the sanitarium where
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: I could make my living. You know, you take care
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: of the kids who ran away or burn the house down.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: You play music for them, you know, like Calm Leaven
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: on a jet play. You put those kind of songs
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: for those kids, kind of calm them, and then you
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: go to what's called seclusion wards from seven thir to
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: nine nine o'clock, there's four seclusion rooms. You clean them,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: wash the chain, the bedding, you know, wash them, you know,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: unstrap them, all those things, put them back because they
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: had metal issues.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: So I learned that early in my life, different sides
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: of people's. And then at the same time, I have
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: my little bands.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: At that time, i'd have a band called this is
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: this is in the far where I played keyboards, left hand, bass,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: right hand organ whatever, sing it, get the smells, play drums,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: and then have bands like that. So and then you
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: learn the most current song pongs like Junior Walker's uh
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: what does it take? Because he's from Battle Creek, Michigan
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: not far away. Chris Motown music is so close. Chicago's
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: so close. It's all right there. So yeah, I understand,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: you know. And then you're you're playing out for people,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: You're you're you're always around the experience. And then even
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: like high school, Okay, your prom, I didn't go to
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: the problem.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: I played the prom. You know, and you know who
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: you are. You're playing expressway to your heart town. You know,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: you're you're rocking. So it's all that kind of thing happening. Yeah, yeah,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: So how'd you learn how to play the organ? Uh?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I love the bass lines of Jimmy Smith, and I
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: have my friend Joe Brooks teaching me the base lines
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: because the baselines themselves are just like genius.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: That he could play that and play the comp and
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: the lead on top and his feet is mind blowing.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: People don't understand what a genius Jimmy Smith is and
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: those organ players players of that time.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: So I had Joel Joel teach me how to play
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: the baselines, you know. Yeah, okay, you talk about top
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: forty hits like Expressway to your Heart, you talk about jazz,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: you talk about I can see for miles. Oh yeah,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: there's a corner kopy of music. Where are you and
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: where do you think you want to go?
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: At that point, I didn't know. I didn't know everything. Obviously,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I'm very tender at that time in my life. You know,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: my dad would say, well, you know, you can sing
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: the Beatles stuff of you know, Hugh say hello, I
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: say goodbye. You can take that kind of thing. Maybe
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: we should do a family group. I said, no, we
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: shouldn't do a family group. Dad, don't let's not do
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: a family group, you know. But you know, I just
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: always loved just doing it. So I didn't know where
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: was it really go as far as my life. I
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: just knew that was what I did.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Every day.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: I'd rush home from school to hear Soul Serenac in Choris.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: I'd rush home from school to hear April and Paris,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: you know count Basie, you know the drums. I'd rush
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: home from school to hear maybe the beginning of Johnny
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: mathis boo doo do ya boo, do do ya boo
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: do do boo doo de yabooy deeta doody boo, you know,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: so a certain smile. I would always be like infatuated
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: with that. But I didn't know to tell you what
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: was gonna actually come up come of it. All I
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: ever knew was as I got a little bit older,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: you know, my grandpa would always say, you know, can
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: you make a living playing this music?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: So that would be all my mind.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: And then I went to college about three semesters and
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: I realized that wasn't gonna work for me because I
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: wasn't able to play drums enough in this college. So
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: on my last day of semesters. This band came through
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: town called Decon Williams and Sole Revival, these white cats
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: from Fresno out in Kalamazoo in a school bus. They said,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: we heard about you and we want you to join
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: us and come play some some clubs with us, iputed
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: by drums. And then in that in that bus we
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: head off to Flint, Flint, Michigan and played some like
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Little I Hado type clubs and some other little clubs
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: around the area. Came back even through Kalamazoo, played them there.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: The band was funky. There were some funky white boys
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: and we were hitting it. And then we took off
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: to go out to California and that was my first
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: experience doing purple Haze, LSD and all that, which was incredible.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: When we finally got to La you know, out in
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Malibu and seeing the ocean and my brother and I
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: on the beach down there, you know, they're passing around
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: whatever little LSD and that then the water, the ocean
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: would come in. My brother took a big staff and
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: look at the water go red, you know, the ocean
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: wand comeing to red, orange or purple, and the water
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: coming to all those colors, and my mind got so
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: open on the LSD. But then after a while we
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: play some some shows in California, in La and all
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: that Hollywood, you know, and then that band broke up.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: I decided had stay in La. I'd stay in La.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: And it was so hard to make it man, so hard, uh,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: because La was kind of heartless. You could just down
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: the road and wouldn't have nobody even care. So again,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: how am I gonna make it? This this eternal thing?
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: And then we had a cousin, a few cousins. One
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: cousin said, come and live with me for a while,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: named Philip, Philip Hackley, my mom's family.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: He took us in.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I had to brought my little drum set in the
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: little bedroom there so I could still play a little bit.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: I got a job working downtown in LA at the
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: shipping receiving type place. You wrap clothing. You wrap clothing
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: as I'm wrapping clothing here in music all the time.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: You wrap the clothing. Then I got smart one day
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: I said, you know, I have another cousin. He's a doctor.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Maybe he can help me get a little further down
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: the road with this thing. So I called him.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: His name is R. Hackley and I go to visit R. Hackley.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: He had a he had a.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: A doctor jointed out near Watts and I go out
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: and visit him, and he says, well, you know, you
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: can stay out out here in Watts area. And then
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: he sees my drum set. He says, wait a minute, No,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: you can't stay here. They'll steal you. They'll steal your stuff.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: You got to come with me out to Pasadena where
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: I live. Oh okay, So I got to Pasadena, up
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: in the hills of Altadina, beautiful place, I mean, swimming
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: pool everything. And he says, you take this bedroom and
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: you can practice in the back room. So all you
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: got to do is keep up place clean, maybe me
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: some food and take care of the house and then
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: you can practice here. Oh my god, that changed my life.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Now I got to play in practice and really go
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: at it. And I said, would work out. Man in Pasadena, California,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: downtown the Mobbish Orchestra in the Mounting Flameboulm had just
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: come out. I had just nobody to buy that album,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: and it was transformative, transformative. Anyone who can tell you
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: about that period of life will tell you that we'd
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: never heard anything like it. We know about funk from
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: James Brown, Cole Sweat, we know about jazz, we know
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: about even some in Indian music. You know Alice coaching
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: gott An Indian, the Indian music. But we've never heard
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: colblem with a vision new and with the Marshals playing
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: the funk in seven nine eleven, what like James Brown
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: would do on steroids and Fishud's screaming on the guitar,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: such precise messages.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: It was just like mind blowing. I was like, who
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: is this? What is this?
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: So I brought it home and then I was able
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: to study that and kind of shed on it. That
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: helped me a lot. Shed and I have different different bands,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: like I have a cat named Eddie Hazel. He was
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: a guitar player from part of a Funkadelic and a
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: band called an album called Maggot Brains, and he was
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: a mean guitar player and he passed around was called
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: angel dust. You take one a hit of it and
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: be like in a different world. But the funk would
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: be so fast and so clean it prepared me.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: He'd be.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Check like that you're playing man, oh my god, and
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: the music just flying around the room. I missed some
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: other cats up there too. A cat named Gregg on
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: bass just happened to knock on the door with dead
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: He says, hey, man, I hear you're playing drum from
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: ro down there.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: Can I bring my base up here and play with you?
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: I said sure, And he brings this big old SVT
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: and big amplifier and he's playing. He is incredible.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I kept meeting these incredible cats. It just changed my life.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Helped me so much in La because I couldn't find
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: a gig, but at least I'm playing with these guys. Also,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: I want to say I did another thing. I joined
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: this registry on Hollywood on sunset. Will you pay a
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: sort of amount of money to find musicians to play with?
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: You put your name in a drum book, then they'll
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: call you if they look for somebody. But that was
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: so hard too.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Oh god, I did meet one guy who put me
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: in a band. Uh. That was all right for a minute,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: but then I did a bad thing. We were gonna
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: we're gonna play for this The Stones manager out in
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: La at this house which is really exotic house, and
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: an elite singer like like like a like a like
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: a doors type lead singer and this other count guitar
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: named Greg greg Beck was his name Greg Beck. He
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: was phenomenal organ cat bassing myself and my cousins of
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: all things said you want a little hit of a
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: of a spliff before you go on the stage. I said, sure,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: take a little head of the spliff and I go
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: on and I'm playing this music. Uh billy billy prestons,
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: boun't get them?
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: She get calm, get coling.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: You're playing this jam. And now the effects of this
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: spliff are hitting me because now I hit a symbol.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: It's like sh drum do everything. He's like due delayed.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: I'm so frightened. This has never happened in my life.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: What what what? What's going on with my inside me?
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: And now on the singers starting to sing to his song,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: and he's looking back at me like like a like
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: like a devil, like I'm ruining his career because I
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: really can't focus on the on the time, and I
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: feel terrible and I kind of stand up and I'm
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: barely able to kind of walk and I stumble off
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: the stage and this beautiful blonde haired angel taking care
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: of me. But the singer is like, I'm gonna kill
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: that nigga. I'm gonna kill him, and my cousins had
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: to rush me out of there. We'll come to find
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: out what I smoked was was this bad angel lost
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: put me out there, man. So that's why I realized
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I really can't mess around with that stuff too much.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Man. I'm very sensitive and I've blown some some some
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: things in my life with this that kind of thing.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: But then what happened.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Also, I had to get a job while I live
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: in Pastena at another nursing home, just to make make
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: some money. I'm working in the nursing home, and then
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I got a phone call from Santa Torano out in
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Florida of all places, because saying I'm gonna I'm playing
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna play with that Edgar Winner right now.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Put together new band, and I'm hearing about you fly
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: down to Florida and do an audition with me. I
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: never been on a plane before. I'm now just just
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: turning nineteen. So I fly from Pasadena down to Florida
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: to go meet this cat Santa Torana. When I get there,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: it's like a paradise. They've got their own warehouse where
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: they can they can rock out there's a cat who
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: can be my own drum tech named Greg Gregor Jovin.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: They have their own little manager. He was a paraplegic,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: got blown up in the army. They have they have
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: a little bit of money. They're smoking their little grass
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: with the where they want. But they're playing a lot
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: of hand intense music, man, And that's where I can
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: really take what I learned from Florida, I mean from
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: La the Oceans of s s, you know, with my
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: symbol words and play the funk hard and then experiment
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: odd meters and bring it all together. That's where I
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: can really kind of find myself with the new MacGuire sisters.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: And then in that setting I met Stan Simoley who
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: worked at the school, the Miami School. In the school
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: was intense bro over there they got Pat Mactheeney, Hiram Bullock,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Cliff Carter, Patti scalf who's then married Bruce Springsteen. Is
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: chuck a block with people who are like gonna be
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: the stars. And then down the road Stan would say,
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: you gotta go down the road and meet this base player.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: So who's is a joco pastorist? Okay, but I go
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: on meet jocola we'll watch him play. He's dancing, funking,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: carrying on like you know, Jocopastoris.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: There he was.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: And then Jacka says, once you come over to my house,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: let's jam. So I go to his out and now
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: we're gonna jam together. You know, he wants playing seven.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: I'm a Plan four, and then we switch it. I'm
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: a plan seven, He'll playing four. He was kind of
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: crazy like that. We had all these chops. So I
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: was like, okay, we became friends. We became friends Pat Mactheeni.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Also I rocked out with him. You know, just a
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: lot of that kind of time in Florida and very
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: hippie love, you know, Petuli Oil. People really trying to
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: further themselves. And that's also where I saw the picture
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: of Guru with Aina Carmel and that whole thing going on.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: So I Miami opened my eyes to so many things beautiful.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Then that band then moved to Connecticut, like I was
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Sonia Canaan, Connecticut, up up on a barn, you know,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: late seventy two going into seventy three.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: It was so cold up there.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: But you know that's where I shut it more and
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: got myself together more and enough not long after I
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: was when I went that concert, met mavish New and
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: then he took me in. And then when I became
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: a disciple further on, I then moved from there to
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: not Queens quiet Rick quite yet but yeah down down
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: closer to New York where I could woods shehd more
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: and joined a band of disciples called Jotra. Grew said,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: play with play with some disciples called Jottra, So I did.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: That would be Omar Mesa who had a band called Mandrel,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: and Gail Moran on keyboards and a few other people
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: like that. So I had a chance to work with them,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: and that was wonderful. And then not long after, oh
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: I want to say this, I worked as a bus
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: boy at Mario's place, picking up slighetty dishes and all.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: That's how I made my living. And not long after
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I got a phone call around Christmas time but that
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: year that from mar Vishnu and he would say, I'm
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: going to visit Guru in Puerto Rico and I'm gonna
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: call you from Puerto Rico. I said, okay, and he
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: called me around Christmas time he said, I met with
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: a Guru. I'm going to change the Mavis Orchestra. I
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: wonder know what you like to join the band. Now
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: you understand, Bobby, that's big, that's big talk, because that
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: band bloom bloom my mind be like joining the Beatles.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: So I was just completely just you know, just an
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: awe and star struck.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: And he said, when I come back from Puerto Rico,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna come to you the house you're in now,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: for the place you play with Gaelong people.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I'll go downstairs and I'll teach you how to play
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: with me. And he meant it.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: When he came back home in jad January, he came
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: down on that basement and be just he and I
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: and we'd rock out, and he would say, okay, now
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: we're going to play in seven, and don't play the
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: down beats.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna play nine. Don't play down beats. Now.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: This was his big thing, this whole cat's mouse thing.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: That's when I realized how deep he is.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: This whole Indian.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Wisdom was so heavy in him that he could play
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: for like bars and bars and measures and measures without
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: ever getting a downbeat. So you really had to kind
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: of learn what he would call the shape of the
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: rhythm feel this shape of the rhythm, work with his
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: shape of the rhythm. And that's how I started really
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: feeling that because it's one thing for me. It's very
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: easy when I played with a bass player, he's playing
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: the Meley line to hook up to the odd meter,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: but there's no bass now, it realized just upon me
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: to play with him. So he was really a wonderful
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: teacher for me and very patient and very beautiful. But
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: we didn't do too much of that. Then then he
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: wrote a piece called Him to Him. He said, bring
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: your bass player, Ralph Armstrong, bring Gail Moran. And then
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: we learned a piece called Him to Him.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: But I want to say one more thing about that,
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: but if you don't before I go too far it
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: because there's one more thing happened just just to that
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: that was really really pivotal.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Just before he had asked me to join that band,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: one thing happened that I really want you to know
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: about that was really pivotal in my life.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: He came to let me see how how it happened.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: He played a content with the Fish Orchestra the second
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: time I ever saw him, at the place called would
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Tango would Preserve Outdoors, and I went to that show
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: and again I'm floored. It's outside by how genius and
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: the majesty of this band with Yan playing. Now Yan
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: is kicking serious behind back at Vishnu, incredible everything John plays,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: He's playing right back on. Cobbin's on fire, the band's
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: on fire, Jerry Goodman's on fire. Who I saw with
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: a band called Flock in Chicago. Okay, Man, there it
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: is again, just in my face, in my face. This
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: time I go back to the with a house where
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: they're staying, and I meet Billy Cobbin for the first time.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: He extends his hand to me. Cobblem's hand is like
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: a baby. The skin is like a baby, so tender.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: It's mind blowing how he can play with all that
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: fire and intensity and have the skin of a baby.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: I'm like, how you doing that? And you say, when
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: I play with my fingers. So that was the first
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: I really heard about playing with your fingers. It's Cobb
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: I'm telling me this. So the Vicius says to me,
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: you lived out too far from here, right, I said, well,
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: I live in Canaan. He said, well, can you take
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: me there so I can play with you up there?
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Said okay, So he wants me to drive his drive
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: his station wagon with his brand new Rex Bowl guitar
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: in the back of the station wagon to my house.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: So here I'm driving him the genius with a double neck,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: and he's sleeping over two to three hour drive to
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: my house. And what am I nineteen twenty years old?
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: I think this is incredible. But when they get to
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: my house, I run the house. I say, you're not
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: gonna believe he's in the car. Get it together, Ralph,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Greg Sandy Vicious in the car and in he walked,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: and their mouths went bam to the floor.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: And he's so beautiful and humble, you know, and we
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: just can't believe he's there. So then we want to,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: you know, feed him. We used to.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: We either brought the cast role. You know, I know
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: you're vegetarian. We make them some food. So then yeah, okay.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Then the next morning we have our little cabins. These
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: are the things I want to make sure I tell you,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: cause you're a deep cat. You want to hear the truth.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: The next morning, Vicious says, I want to meditate with you.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: I said, okay, come into my cabin. I'm like in
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: my cabin, I set up a little shrine because now
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: I'm a new disciple. I got a picture, Guru, I
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: got it. I got flowers, I got some candles, you know,
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: like a three tiered thing I made out of cement blocks,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: a wooden floor, my bed. And he comes in and
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: he sits on the floor, on the wooden floor, and
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: I sit next to him, and he goes into this
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: long meditation. And as a meditation is going on, I'm
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: so weird. I hear this like a sound of like
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: a a falcet dripping, like yeah, I think, damn faucet on,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: just gonna disturb him, you know. Now I'm pretty gombaut
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: with the damn fawcet. Then after a long time goes by,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: he kind of bows down the floor, but he goes
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: down to the floor.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I do the same thing.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: I go down to the floor, and when I come up,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: you know, you know, I look at him to bow
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: to him about, you know, to acknowledge that we're in
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: the same room, and then a history of what's happened.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: His face is completely full with tears, and on the
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: wooden floor are his tear drops.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: A pool. That was the sound I was hearing. That
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: frightened me. It made me think maybe I'm not ready
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: for this. You know.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: It's one thing to say you're ready for something, but
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: when you see a man who you love so much
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: in the tears next to you, like that, maybe I'm
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: not really ready for this. So I had to, you know,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: ask myself, you know. But then he was like, let's
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: go play. So we went across the street to the
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: barn and hooked it up and went to go play.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: And what I want to tell you is this man,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: this is the last part of the story. He comes
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: upstairs in the barn, and this is a mighty, a
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: mighty gathering of Sandy on guitar, who's great, Billy McCoy, piano,
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Rob Armstrong who you now know, but he was like
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: sixteen seventeen years old, and myself on drums and shamaclauchlan.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: And he wants everyone to solo first. And we're playing
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: the fast funk like like we know he likes, and
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: we're just and we're rocking it. But then it's his
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: time to solo. John Macglaukin's turned to solo. My vision.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: He sits in a high chair. He's kind of off
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: to my right. He turns to face me and as
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Hugh begins to solo.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: You hear the sound.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: So clear, so precise, so him, it is just daunting,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: the precision. But his face, Bobby was a stone. There
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: was no expression all on his face. You know, I'm
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: used to cats. You look watch handricks, you watch the cats.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: It's all this agony, this pain on the face or boxing.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: There was nothing, but the sound was enormous. I said,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: you ain't gonna fool me. I'm gonna close my eyes.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna watch you. I closed my eyes then
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: I could get out there with him, and that's when
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: we just took a flight. Then my eyes closed, but
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: if my eyes were open, it was the freakest thing
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: in the world. I dare any musician to play with
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: him like that. It's so freaky. So after we played,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: then he said, you know, I really love the situation.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: He was like, wow, I might want to get a
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: barn so beautiful. He was all lovey and dovey about everything.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: And then that's how Then later on if it became
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: that yes about joining the band, Okay, let's stop here
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: for a second.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Go ahead. He had records, I think on Douglas Records
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: before he signed with Columbia had my Vshna Orchestra had
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Inner Mountain Flame. The second album was actually more financially successful,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Birds of Fire. I think it was. Yes, I bought
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: the first album. I saw the band. I don't think,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: including myself, I'm not sure the audience could understand the music.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: You're right, we were all in shock. We had never
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: heard any say anything like it. Nobody had.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: There had never been a concoction of that sort where
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: the funk was so strong, the rock was silence, and
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: the Indian influence was so powerful. Damn, It's like fifty
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: to sixty percent Indian music coming through on the funk,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: on the blues, on the American thing. So we had
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: never heard that kind of blender a gumbo.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: It was rare. No one. No one was doing that,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: no one. So you're right.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: We were all stunned. Even in the audience that night
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: when I saw him and Harper, we're all stunned and tangling.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: We were all stunned. So you're right. We had never
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: heard anything like it. We still had ain't nothing never
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: been like that, and that since since now he had
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: his commercial peak at that point in time, to what
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: degree have you played with him or have a you
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: point on his music since the seventies.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I saw him recently with Shocked, he celebrating their
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: fiftieth year anniversary here in town at the Lewis and
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Davis Hall.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: That was beautiful.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: Zak here who sank killing on the toablers in his
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: band and the singer just beautiful, so beautiful, and he's
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: so free and he's happy. That's what he wants was
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: more acoustics so it's not so loud and he can
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: just do his thing and they're all just getting on.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: So I have so much love and respect for him,
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: very very very very proud of him, and I'm also
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: very happy he took me on his wing.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: A lot of other people you mentioned you played with
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: Yako Pastorius of course, did great things with Joni Mitchell.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: A million other people died before his time. Yes, how
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: good was Giaco pingusorious? He is the Ali on the base.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: You know we all love Ali, Muhammad Ali. I'm the greatest.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I am the greatest. That's how Jocko was. I am
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: the greatest. No one can touch me. Shoot, I got funk.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: You want pretty? I got pretty? You want this? You
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: want that? What you want? I can do it. That's
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: how he was for real, Capricorn, tough, sensitive too.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: So then dig I'm on a session with weather Report,
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Joe zou On weather Report, Wayne Shorter, weather Report, Alexa
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: cunea percussion with Alfonso Johnson weather Report.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: They called me in.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I did the album with Alfonso and they loved me,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: so he said come in the Weatherport. So I came
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: over to play with him, and I cut a song
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: called black Market and the ending went into this long
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: jam like Kalamazoo Michigan jam, like the funk jam, Like
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: here's Wayne Shord of playing like Judy Walker, all that
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: stuff going on and funk for real, And I'm like, damn,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: these guys are like more street wise than I realized.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know Mercy Mercy Me and all the
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Joe's I don't know, compositions you know, and the side
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: of waiting all that you know, and out there music.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: But they could also be grounded. So I was like damn.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: So then Joe says, why don't you join the band
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: and bring a bass player, because I know a fase
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: is going to go on and do something else. Now,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: I said, well, Joe, I don't know if I can
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: join the band because I may want to go join
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Tommy Bon's band. He asked me about playing with him,
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, I want to go more of the
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: rock and roll away now and get some panties on
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: the stage and all that kind of that kind of world.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: But I have a bass player I think could be
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: good for you. I said, you know Jocopas Stories, that
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: crazy guy in Florida. He said, I think I've heard
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: about him. I said, let's fly him out here.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: So we did. We flew out of Jocopas Stories.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: For the next day, in comes Jacko, and Joe's written
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: a song called Cannonball, which he thinks he wants to
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: either going to call Cannonball Ford, Julian.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: Adelete, Canniball, or empty chair.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: He's not sure what he's gonna call yet, but he
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: starts teaching us the song if he first runs it
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: through with me, so I can record on casette on
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: a tape. That's how I always learned tongue, I said,
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: play through three once on a cassette, so I can
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: just walk around and study it, you know, and just
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: get it in my soul, not like looking at the
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: peace of paper. I could never just read that stuff.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Got to study it in your heart. So then now
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: it's time for Jocko to learn the piece. It's his audition.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: And he starts playing this stuff that he would.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Get into later with johny Mitchell, all the harmonic stuff,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: harmonic bl bloom bloom bloom, and Joe stopped right in
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: the middle and said, don't play that ship on my song.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: And like a knife in Jacko's heart, a good knife,
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: a knife that meant, just play what you need to
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: play now because you can. And it made Jocko Jocko.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: He put those little things where it was supposed to go,
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: with the polls just all over the place. Joe put
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: his ass in the fire and melted him down. And
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: that's when I really knew the power Joe Zalo. You
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: don't mess around with Joe's zalon. He's a fighter. He'll
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: you're out.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: And that's me. It the Jocko bro.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: And then I went on to work a time bowling
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: and jack to stay with that band and then made
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: Heavy Weather. You know, I remark you made Team Town Birdland,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: that serious stuff. Man made it stuff a star. Okay,
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: you played with a lot of guitarists. You mentioned Pat Methen,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: You played with Jeff Beck, Alan Holdsworth. Yes, you know
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: these are people considered those three people argue whether the
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: best of all time?
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: What do you think.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: I don't look at things as the best of all time,
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: necessarily because I don't know the best of all time.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: All I know is that everyone's got a different like capacity,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: like like fruits, like an orange, banana, an apple, a peach.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: They're all great fruits. That's how I look at life.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: You need, we need, we need them all Allen Holdsworth
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: fluid fluid. But on the session I did for him
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: on this album, he was unhappy. He was doing a
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: thing for CTI Records, Cree Taylor Studio, Rudvan Gelder, and
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: he was running through the songs and they were recording
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: the run through and they were they want to they
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: want to keep that. But he's like, wait a minute,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: that was just a run through. No, that was good enough,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: they would say to him. So he's kind of happy.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: He's kind of happy with that record we made him.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: But I loved him.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: He was great.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Then you mentioned who else you mentioned? You said, Jeff
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Beck Yep, Jeff Beck. I came to know really will
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: because of the second tour we did the MA Fish Orchestra.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: After Vision of the Animal Beyond in seventy five, Jeff
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: joined for a damn tour. He had his band Bernard
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: Perdi on drums, h Max Mills on a keyboard, the
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: mean bass player who put on wired.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: What was his damn name? I'm bounce based not on
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: the name, and he remembers the vocalist Bobby Tench. But
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: but that was earlier.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: That was Bobby ten Yeah, yeah, but nevertheless that that
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: you're right, that was a hot band. Butin this time
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: with Jeff, it was just him doing blow by blow
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: music right, and he was he hush, Now, you gotta
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: understand he wasn't just a jazz ars on a little
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: He crossed over to everybody.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: It was packed theaters to see Jeff Beck.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: So I had a chance to really study him and
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: know what is it The people loving about what he's doing,
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: and they love the funk on the bottom with these
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: sweet melodies and then the way he kind of mixing
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: all together, but it'd be sweetness for the girls and
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: also kind of funky. So I learned his sound. We
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: became really close. That was that was a really also
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: we jammed jam together every night. Movish New and Jeff,
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: me and Bernard both bands would play together. That was incredible.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: So I love Jeff Beck and I learned playing with
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: him as more like high school vibe of me, Like
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: he's brilliant, but he'd played things I could latch onto,
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: like with Vishnu. With Professor Oriole, you had to re listen, listen, listen,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: listen what he's gonna do. Where Jeff I could kind
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: of anticipate it. That's the difference, you see what I'm saying.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: I kind of anticipate it.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Very brilliant. Who was the cat you mentioned? The three?
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: You said? You said, well, I don't work at PAT
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: that much. I don't work at PAT. And he was
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: in college.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: I said, have you were like bashed out in rock?
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: I know you played great jazz, but can you rock?
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Can you play loud? Can you come over my house?
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: I bubble bash at you?
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: See what you do? He said, okay, So I did.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: I just bashed in him hardcore and he was.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: Just like phenomenal. But it wasn't as hard. It wasn't
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: what he wanted to do. He wanted to play on
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: a quiet you know, he was happy playing quiet and
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: and like you know, patmtheene to be, so I didn't
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: take him that serious to go.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: Further with him.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: How about Alan Holdsworth, Yeah, I mentioned Alan at the beginning.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: I was saying, Alan Holdsworth, we did the album for
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: ct I called Velvet Darkness, right, and that was the
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: album he wasn't happy making because they kept there, they
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: were keeping.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: The takes, I know.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: But after that, oh well, you know from me, okay,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Alan Holdworth in heaven looking down at me right now,
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: you are. We love you because you're like a violent
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: on guitar. You're the violinist of the guitar. How he
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: does what he does, no one even understands it. This
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: is his own technique. I mean, might have a dear
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: friend Crowder Richard, you another genius and guitar. He's tried
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: to emulate it. No one can really eminent what he does.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: Alan's under his his own self. He's an orange. He's
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: the orange. So I have great respect for him, but honestly,
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: to play with him wasn't as much fun. Always say
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: it was vish because Visu the definition is there, or
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Jeff Beck, the definition is there. With Alan so fluid
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: that you have a hard time catching it what it's
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: going to be you know what I mean? Like my
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: whole thing is kind of mirror catch your frase, throw
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: back at you so you can keep going with Alan's
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: hard because.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: He'll played these long phrases. See it's hard to mirror.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: The long phrase. But he's genius. So I learned a
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: different gear with him, just to learn the list. Let
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: him go, Just let him go and see.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: What it is. Okay, how about drummers, How do you
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: consider yourself to be stacked up? From everybody from Billy
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: Cobbam to Neil Pert to everybody.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Billy Cobbam to me is something that is just rarefied air.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: He is the astronaut that showed me the highest height.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: I had never seen anyone go as high as him.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: To this day, I love Mitch Mitchell when I saw
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: him do with Jimmy Hendricks. I'm a real fan of
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: so many drummers, you know, and I wasn't a big
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: fan of a kid, necessarily of Keith Moon.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: Here I am learning.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: I can see for miles and miles a miles, but
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: I realized that was Keith Moon. Then later on in
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: my life I realized how strong he was. Then I
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: had more.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: Respect for him. How strong he was. But I loved
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: all drummers, and we don't compete. That's one thing Grew
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: taught me.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: He said, when you join my Vision Orchestra, don't compete
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: with Billy Cobb because you will lose. They just compete
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: with yourself. And that freedom me so and talking you
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: asking about other drummers. I have just just pure love
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: for all drummers, I really do, and I try to
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: learn from all of them. Learned from Bernard Perry how
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: to shuffle. Learned from my favorite of all. A lot
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: of people won't even know him, named Sandy McGee with
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: a band called Cold Blood, siss Fust with Lydia pens
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: on vocal now that cat.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, how do
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: you even know that band? That band was from San Francisco,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: never really you know, broke through? How do you how
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: do you even find cold Blood?
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: I'm in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and my best friend played trumpet
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: with the band we had called Avatar named Bobby Knapp.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Bob actually later joined the mob structure, but Bobby w
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: be my god, turned me on this stuff. Bobby said,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: you gotta hear this thing. He played me cold blood,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: sissyphus think of shop talk Boa, digging, do, digging tan,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: don't don't dig it, don't do and.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: The drug so clean, so pure, So like, who's that?
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: That's Sandy McGee And then he could.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Sing too, there's been never a funk your cat beside
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: a cobbin, and the dad looked a little.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: We love.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: But at that time in my life it was Sandy
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: McGee had so much shops and knew how to grab
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: the symbol.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: He became my guru. So I have love for all
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: these people.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: And quite frankly, the Cold Sweat I can't leave on
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: class Toblefield when I'm a kid, Cole Sweat turned everybody out.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: And if you couldn't play Cold Sweat, you couldn't play,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: you know. You look about zigg booh and talk about
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: the Sizzy strip. That was important too. Everything's important in
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: the in the rhythm world. In the rhythm world, if
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: you can't or don't know these things, there's something missing
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: in your vocabulary.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so how do you end up getting the solo deal? Oh? God?
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: But hard. After my vision I was lost. I cried,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: you know, and then Lenny White helped me. Cause on
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Lenny White's album Venetian Summer whatever it's called, Venetian Something,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: Venetian Knights, whatever it's called. He had a cat on
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: their playing guitar who was mean, named Raymond Gomez, and
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: I said, wait a minute, this guy caned meal to play.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: And I met Raymond Gomez and it made my heart
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: feel happy, and I had met someone of you know,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: the same spirit. Loved Handrick's new mobbish new music. Some
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: knew the fusion aire world but also understood the rock
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: blues worlds. And I felt like, may I could work
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: with this guy. I can develop my sound on me
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: doing what I want with this guy. And I did
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: the Garden Love Light album. I wrote Sons Dancing the
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: White Knight and a few other pieces and it became
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: my sound for that album. And also something I did
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: learn from Talmy Tommy bowlan band Delightful, which I'd worked for,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: Tommy Bolan. All these kind of came together to helped
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: me get a deal with Atlantic. Eventually Epic Records pay
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: for my demo, but then they didn't want it. But
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: then Atlantic get said Raymond, Raymond Silva and Jim Delahant
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: and my man over there, I'm an urt again they
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: had had successful Billy cobbam and they said, why don't
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: we tick you onto? And they did, and that's how
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: Mad Garden Lovel. And then they give me my choice
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: of producers. They said you can choose either Raise Martin
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: or Tommy Dowd. I said, well, damn, I guess I'll
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: take Tommy Dowd then, because I want to go more rock.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: And I bring my engineering in from London named Dennis
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: McKay worked on the last Mavis Strokes job, Inner Worlds,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: because he had phenomenal drum sounds. So that's how I
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: made Garden Love Light. And then Tommy Dawe was suggested
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: on Garden Love Light that sounds we got to bring
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: in Sissy Houston sings background, so who s.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah this good MISSISSI.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Here's sus Houston comes in with her whole troop and
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: a little eleven year old girl in the corner that's
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: the daughter Whitney watching. And these women sound like incredible.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: So Tommy dwd really helped me a lot at that
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: time in my life seventy six. And he also big
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: on compression. Tell me about compression. Ray Charles will say,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: don't use your eyes, use your ears, so.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: I hope him.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: I'm not just gap babbling here. I'm just telling you
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: what happened at that time.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: Well, how is your experience in Atlantic and how did
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: you feel about that? I love the fact that I
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: could have a deal.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: You understand, it's hard, brother, to make have half things
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: happen in this music world, really hard and that.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: But I had to make a deal. At the time.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: I just say, listen, they said, you will give you
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: a deal. We want to have your publishing. Okay, see
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: those kinds of things we have to just do just
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: to make it. What you gonna do shine shoes, What
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: you wanna do my floors? You want to clean ash trays? No,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: So I'll give you half the publishing and Wired, I'll
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: give you half pushing whatever it is, just to give
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: me a shot to start making my own sound. So Garden, lovelight,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: I cry and smile Awakening And then that's when the
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: when the brick hit the fan. They said, listen, if
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: you don't have a hit on this next album, Awaking,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: your third album, we're gonna drop you. I just got married,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: and they said, you may want to come to New
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: York because it's the sound has changed it's now disco
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: dance music, so I didn't want to get dropped. And
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: the jazz rock fusion kind of kind of it kind
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: of ruin its course. And I came to New York
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: and I want to fit the studio fifty four checked
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: it out. Walk the streets here, Rick James, you and
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: I here hear the sound of the day, and go
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: on my little Hilton Apartment hotel and bust out on
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: my clabinet four Jams, I don't know Buddy's dance with
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: you and the side of one of Awakening. And I
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: was very blessed to have Bobby Clearman and say yes
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: to working with me at the power station. And they
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: also said, yeah, you gotta work with this other guy
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: who's big in the disco woman, Patrick Adams. He does
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: string arranging for the disco, so you gotta have him
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: in there for the name that and what he's don't
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: bring to it. I said, okay, So I going to
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: put powers and I'm cutting with my cats hiring book
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: on guitar, you know, Cliff Carter keyboards, and we're cut
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: my stuff and Bobby makes me sound really good. Patrick
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: comes around every now and again, and I got the
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: Brecker Brothers to come play horns with David Sambourne, Michael, Michael,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: Randy and David come play on I Don't want to
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: body else dance with you, And that record saved my life.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: I had a little hit and now they're give me
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: a party at Atlantic. I'm gonna urt again and all
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: that at the Indian Food restaurant. So I'm just so
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: happy man to feel like I could save my career.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to go down. And then I went
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: in that same trajectory next album, Dance a Life. I
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: Should Have Loved You, not I'm all right dance music.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: You know. I love Atlantic Records. I love Atlanta Records.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: So how did you end up getting into the other
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: side of the business, on the other side of the glass.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: After I had I Should Have Loved You? Now I'm
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: watching Don't Forget. I watched George Martin produce Apocalypse of
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: Marvish Orchestra. I watched Kenny Scott Ken Scott do Vision
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: aw moving on. I watched you know, Tommy Down, I
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: watched these hot shot cats. You know, just by being
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: around you, you learn. And then I told Henry Allen,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: who was the president of Cotillion records. You know, we
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: don't talk about Henry, but Henry was a big shot.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: He was gonna signed, say Selata's all such a sledge,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: you know, helped now Roger Vashik all that stuff.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: And I said, you know, Henry, why you let me
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: produce this girl for four tracks? And I'm four songs now,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: I'll make an album if you like it for stats
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: Aleatta's all I know you want something happened for her,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: She's eleven years old. And he said, okay, okay.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: I said, if you know you won't lose that much
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: of it to do four songs, and if you like it,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: just you know you would finish it up. So I
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: got a very small budget and I went back home
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: to Samay school and I wrote and put together with
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: my band, you know, Corodo Crodon guitar, Frank Bartiner keyboards,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: TM Stevens bass, and myself. I wrote let Me be
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: Your Angel with Bunny Home, Dynamite Jumped to the Beat
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: and my Love and those four records. When they heard,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: they were like, damn, and you're under budget too, Go
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: finish the album.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: So I finished the album. She had a hit.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: Liviy r Angel was a big hit Dynamite did did
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: really well for her. That made the phone ring. Now
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: Clive Davis is calling me. He said, well, how do
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: you learn how to make that kind of record? Said, well,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: I'm from Michigan. I love music, you know. He said,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: well you want to produce Dean Warick. Damn, Dean Warck
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: is my my hero back, I'm my heroes.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: He'll go and visit with her.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: That was Clyde that said it to me. So I
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: go to LA I bring thirteen songs. But Diane didn't
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: like my songs at that time.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: I come back. Call my call Claude. Is it clid?
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: She didn't like my songs. He ain't don't work, don't
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: wory about I about to read Franklin or Wreatha Franklin.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, he said, just give her a call. Just
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: give her a call. So I called Wreatha Franklin. So
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: I say, well, what do you do to have fun?
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: She goes, well, maybe I'll go out to a night
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: club at night. I look around the club. I see
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: a guy in the corner looking good looking at me.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at him.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: She goes, it's kind of like a whozu Manhu. He
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: thinks he's got me. But then the fish jumps off
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: the hook. Damn, the fish jumps off the hook. Who's
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: When I'm writing this down, this is how she talks
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: for real. So I got off the phone call.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: I called my buddy, Preston Glass said, Press, we gotta
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: take her the way she talks.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: Make a song out of this. Here we did.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: I go back to Detroit and I start working with Aretha,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: and then I realize how tender she is because her
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: dad just died. Her dad died from the colma being
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: shot in the church, so she's very tender. But she
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: sings her ass off two songs Who's Them? And who
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: and Until You Say You Love Me my favorite of all.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: And then when I come back home back to California,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: Preston says to me, what about that song Freeway of Love?
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: Whyn't you give her that the thing you're working out
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: for yourself, Preston, I would have never thought of that.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: So we reshape Freeway of Love for Aretha and that
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: becomes a major hit for her, and on the same sessions,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: I how will I Know? For Whitney Houston. It all
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: kind of snowballed, it all kind of snowballed because I
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: said no to Whitney Houston. It was Jared Griffith called
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: me for Whitney said, no, I can't do that. I'm
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: so focused on Aretha. I can't do anything else. He said, Yeah,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: I have a hold on man. This is sister Houston's daughter.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: Whitney.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: You want to be on this project, he said, And
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: I think, He said, I think I have a song idea.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: He sent me the course of how will I know?
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: But there was no verses. I said, I gotta write
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: some verses of those things. He said, then let me
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: ask the writers.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: If you can do that.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: You call the writers and the writer said, okay. So
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: I jammed out on the same section for Aretha.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: How will I know? Bang on the piano, sing the thing,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: bang it out, call it Whitney. Can you sing high?
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: I'm the other thing with the high? Yeah, I can
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: sing Hi. That's how I'll just start a snowballing.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: Don't forget ant the ballfield came before that too, Philips Hymon,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: Patty Austin. There was a whole lot of work in
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: there building me up that I was doing different different people,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: different labels and things.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, Clive has got a reputation for meddling with the music.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: To what degree did he meddle with the record?
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: You made different degrees on different different things early on,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: for as the book feel he may want me to
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: do a song or something. He might choose a song
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: or two, but then beyond that he wouldn't. He wasn't
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: that crazy. He was always cool, you know, feel the time.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: He was always cool. How will I know I did
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: that for Jerry Griffith never even talked to Clive about that,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: But there was then when I brought it to the
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: office after I cut it and mixed it, he said, well,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: did you ever know about another lyrics for that song?
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: A sa A No, No, I did not, and then
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: he just dropped it. But I saw him ask me
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: about that now. On next album, he chose all the
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: music for Whitney. He chose I Want to Dance, Somebody
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: Loves Me where Brokerheart's go so emotional. He chose those songs,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: even shows like the Olympic theme song One moment in time.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: It was my job to bring him to be it
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: sounds like hits, so I did, And all he would
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: ever asked for was really making sure that he can
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: hear the vocal background vocal. He would to meddle with
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: me too much. Only one song the third album he
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: went crazy, love her for life. I wanted to cut
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: that song four different ways for different ways. Wasn't like
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: I need a baker, were like this one like that?
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: Whatever? Because the demo the baseroom pattern was wrong to me.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: It was a four a five bar pattern, the base
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: from going around wrong to me? Were it never really grounded.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: And when I couldn't make Clive happy about the thing,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: he just so much loved the demo, I said, well,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: what is I said, you know the baseroum pattern is
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: a five bar pad and he says, well, maybe that's
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: what I love about it, the floatings of it. I said,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: all right, So I cut up with the floatings that
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: he liked from them, and then he was happy. But
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: I haven't had like a lot of battles with Climb
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: about that kind of stuff. He's normally loving what I
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: give him, so I gotta I have to give him
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: a lot of credit that we've had a long, along
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: running streak of him having success. How did you feel
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: about his song choices? I got it that the choruses
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: we were strong. That's the main thing. He wasn't trying
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: to dictate how funk you had to make him to
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: make to make them hits. So I could dig his
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: song choice. If I knew if I could take his
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: white pop hook and blacket funk it, put James Brown
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: on it, put the problem of funking that look on it.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: Whatever was hot at the time, it'd be all right,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: That's what.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: That was my combination of how to make that stuff swing,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: and we did. So what's your magic in the studio?
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: What is it that you had that makes the song
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: go over the top?
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, honey, I love you. Thank you if you asking
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: me something like that. I'm very dedicated to work quickly.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: I don't take a long time to do stuff, and
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: I use my gut. I always think what's the hot
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: what's gonna be hot on the jukebox at the black
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: ghetto joint in Kalamazoo on the jukebox, what's gonna make
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: them chicks when they get that little drink on feel good?
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: I think about that, And I also think about on
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: NASA's boat, what's gonna sound good for the rich people.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: I think about all about it, but I want to
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: really make sure I get the people in the ghetto.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: And what does that mean.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: That means the rhythm. The rhythm gotta be right. When
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: the rhythm is right, everything's right, then you're gonna make it.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: The little pop up sound good. Oh I want it
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: with somebody. Uh, I want to feel o the hey
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: with somebody.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: Huh d. It's all the rhythm. How you do it.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: If it sounds too straight, no, you gotta put that
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: thing on it. So that's what it is. Put it.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: Put a thing on it with the rhythms.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: The musicians, the bass player, Randy Jackson's guitars, put the rhythms.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, there are a million different musicians with a million
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: different attitudes. Do you find people are amenable to you saying, hey,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: let's do it this way that way, or do they
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: come and say, no, we got to do it my way. No.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: I work at cats who do it my way, and
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: they'll take my way and make it even better. I
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: take I take cats. We'll start with my way. If
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: they bring something better to the pie, I'm cool. But
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: if it's not better than no, no, no, it's.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: Gotta be this. You got to have a leader. You
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: gotta be a leader, Bobby, you gotta be a leader. Well,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: sometimes that causes friction, doesn't it.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't care about friction. If if I'm the producer,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: that's my job. On the director, that's my job to
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: put lay down the law. Try try your idea? Is
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: it either good as not?
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it is? And the ideas you have like some
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: things like the rhythm you know, or part of your DNA.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: But did the other thing just come out of thin air?
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: Like you're standing in the shower or you walk into
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: the bathroom in the studio and all of a sudden
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: you have an idea? Where do the ideas come from? Oh?
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: I got an inspiration. It's with this twenty four hours
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: a day. You're right, Grew taught us. Just reach your
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: hand up and grab the birds inspiration and bring them
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: down anytime.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: So I know that trick.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: I can write hit anytime if I really focus or
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: write something. I think it's strong if I really focus
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: on it, pray on it, and you ask God to
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: come through. God can come through, you.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: Know, and you say you work quickly. Yes. It's one
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: thing to get the sounds lay them down. It's another
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: thing to mix any cute To what degree do you
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: labor over the mix? Very good.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: I got you, So I'll cut something quickly if I can.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: I work with a team of people who understand my tempa.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: Because what it is, Bobby, when you sweat and you're
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: and dirfor it's kicking in, you want to grab that
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: while it's happening, even a ritha. I'll have her get
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: the ending of the record first, sing all the soul,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: get all that first, before we ever get too technical
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: in the verse.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: I want to go so fast we go beyond the
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: mind because you break the mind up. The mind's gonna
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: start judging and criticizing now that and you can ruin it.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: So then I go quickly on that stage. But then mixing,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: now I can say they phraser my main cat. Will
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: take your time, take a couple of days and get
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: it together. I'll give them a rough mix what I love,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: the balance of what I love. Then you can take
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: another couple days where refine it. That's fine, that's fine.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: But with the almost sason I made back of that time,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: we're over a week's time. I'll take about one week
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: to do a song and be from starting to finish
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: as powerful.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're in the studio night and day. You're not
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: doing drugs, you're not drinking. No, no, no, no, it's music.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: It's all music, okay. And now the money's starting to
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: roll in. What do you do with the money? Hm hmm.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, money's funny, man. Money comes in, money
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: goes out quick too. You got to careful, you know.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: I had a good time. I was married back then,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: married married and did nice things. And now I have three,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: three children, and money comes in and money goes out.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: So it's funny, man. Hard hard to keep keep a
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: hand on it. But I've had some wone of the
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: times in my life. One of the times my life.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: I'm very very happy with my life. But money, money, money,
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: money is tricky.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: Man. Money's tricky. That's why I ask about it. Now,
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: you gave up fifty percent of your action in Atlantic,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: the songs, in the producer royalties that you have. Do
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: you still own those or did you sell them?
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: I have sold some publishing of a few of my things,
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: and I have the publishing of some other things, so
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: it's kind of a mixed bag. I own the writers,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: writers share and all my points as a producer. So
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: I'm like like like like that, and so why did
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: you sell the publishing?
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: Oh maybe I went through a divorce and I wanted
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: to make it all, you know, good for somebody else
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: like that, I see. But at this point in time,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: is revenue's still pretty good from these royals.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm happy to have a good life. I'm happy
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: to have you know, my studio which I'd love to
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: come visit. It's called tart Ban Studios. I've had eighty five.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, the molecules in here are just just incredible.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm I'm able to make it. I'm able
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: to feel good. I'm able to keep to continue to
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: make more music, you know, and stay happy.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: So how did you meet Q and what influence was Q?
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: Quincy Jones? Early in my life?
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: It's funny, I hadn't gotten the tarpen yet. I was
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: still over the automat studios and San Francisco. I don't
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: know how we actually hooked up at one point on
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: the phone or something, but he told me said, we
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: need we need more helpers in the production world, more helpers, okay,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: And I kind of knew he was right because I
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: was having a hard time finding other helpers in my world,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: so I kind of knew he was right. And then
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: when I started preaching stage letters, own business, just legs
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: and stuff, I knew he was right, So I kind
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: of took that more serious, just to be a producer. Yeah,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: and then he would teach me things like, don't strangle
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: the baby in the crib, you know, as a songwriter,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: don't strangle strangle the baby in the crib. You know,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: love your babies, wash the blood off, cut the ambilical chords,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: dress them up.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, not everyone's gonna understand that. Go a little deeper.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: Don't strangle the babies in the crib.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when you write a song, love it like your baby.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: You love your baby, You have a baby, you love
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: your He goes, oh this trash, Oh theok got cute.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: Oh you've washed them, you know, washed the blood off
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: because think public a chord, put a little hat on
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: some little clothes. It smells so sweet. It might need
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: some little mama's milk. Whatever, you take care of it.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: That's how Quincy taught me to take care of the songs.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: And then he would also say, you know, the chorus,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: make the course stand up big and strong. Because I
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: always knew that, but he kind of reinforced it. So
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: I always made the course stand up, you know, big
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: and strong. So Quins is like a guru mentor teacher
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: for me, and I admire him how he's able to,
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: you know, do so many things so well, you know,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: you talk to him, his mind's like an ex cyclopedia.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: He didn't talking about damn everything thing, you know, hanging
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: out with Ray Charles, hanging out with dog With, hanging
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: out with Count Basy, hanging out on you know in Europe,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: this goes on on on with that cat. There's nobody
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: he doesn't know. That's what I'm saying. But damn, okay,
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: So how do you.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: End up getting into sound tracks?
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: They call you when you get hot, everybody calls you.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: And when I realized about soundtracks, they're looking for a hit.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: They don't really just want an album track.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: For example, a movie like even License to Kill, a
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: James Bond theme, you know, License of Kill.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: How do you make a hit out of that? But damn,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: I challenged myself. I said, nah, to make a hit
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: out of License to Kill? So I think I go
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: to the piano and make a sweet powerful the bottom
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: of Sweet Melloy and make the theme like I have
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: lies to kill? Anybody will try to hurt you or
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: take or take or take you to take you from me.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: So that's how I found my success as a soundtrack cat,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: just taking different movies and making sure I'm making a
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: hit for them so they can have, you know, a
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: bannitter wave for that film.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: So every producer has their moment and then it starts
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: to fall off a little bit. What was that experience? Like?
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: Have I fallen off? Bobby? Have I fallen off? I'm
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: not saying you have a phone off, but I'm not
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: saying you're done. I'm saying that it's sometimes you know,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: the phone doesn't doesn't stop ringing, then it rings less.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: I got you, well, how my hand and phoning and
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: rest ringing less. I'm good. I'm good. I have so
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: many people I love working with still and still enjoy
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: making the music. I regret that I don't have a
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: better situation to get the music heard the way I like.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: That's what I most regret. People who are unsigned. We'd
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: love to sign them, but how do we get him
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: hurt the way? Want to get him a hurt. That's
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: the thing I missed with Clive and becn day old
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: day of Rster Records.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: You could produce Kenny G, who be nobody but he
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: Now you're hearing Kenny G every hour, take a catle,
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: even Jamaine Stewart, We're gonna take our clothes up.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: Now you're hearing him every hour, even when he Houston
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: this year, every hour everything you were hearing, hear and hearing.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: I missed that component. That's what I missed the most.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: He had all that success behind the board. How did
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: that aff affect your solo career and do you have
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: any regrets? No, I have no regrets at all.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: I love my life everything I've done, but with a
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: good feeling of what's good for me, what's what's right
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: for me.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: So I have no regrets about anything. No. No. I mean,
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: do you have a regrets that you didn't spend more
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: time on your solo career? No, no, no, Because I
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: wanted to do many things which I have done. I
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: wanted to do many things. I can say to you.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: You know, I've played with the greatest jazz rock cats
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: in the world. You know, I played with Ruther Franklin.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: I worked with the greatest singers of all time.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: So I like that.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: I like being versatile and spreading the love around more
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: so than just doing one thing over and over and
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: over and over and over again. Yeah, so how do
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: you end up in Journey? Well, I don't play live
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: with Journey. I don't do that anymore.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: I just did, but you did for a while. Oh yeah,
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: I did you know? I did? I tough strong. I
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: did a double album.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: First, I did the solo album for Neil Neil and
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: showing the guitar player, called the Universe, which is a
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: hell of an album. Then during COVID, it overspills and
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: it well, let's make a Journey record. It was became
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: a double album during COVID.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: Here I'm.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: Writing songs with Neil or you know, in letting him
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: do his thing because he's missed a journey. And then
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: you bring in Jonathan Kan to do his thing. Send
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: tapes to Randy Jackson for bass, get on the zoom
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: skype for RNL in the Philippines, get his vocal you
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: know that way put it all together. Maybe give some
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: stuff to Bobby Clemon and mix it up. Bobby's doing
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: a good job doing that. So he made a double album.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: And then it came down to play some live shows
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: and had to relearn that material. Not the double album
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: as much, but all the it's that's where it's hard. Oh,
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: it's so much because they don't want just like the records,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: they want you to play with Steve Smith played live
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: on every song, every bar, so it's a lot of memorization.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: Oh it was so hard, but I loved it. But
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: it was just hard. Care who you are. You don't
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: want to step into that gig and just learn nothing.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: You got to know it.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: So then we brought in Dean Castranova, who knows that
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: from twenty years playing that book, and that helped me
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: a lot because now we can play a lot of
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: the different pieces they wanted to get into and we
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: could rock it together and that was great. I think
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: about nine shows live, some big ones like Lollapaloo's and all.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: That was really a lot of fun.
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you know, the music changed certainly in black music.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: It became more of a hip hop world. What's your
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: viewpoint on hip hop?
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm a student of all the music. I
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: try to learn from it, whether I like it all
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: no or you know, like or love. I just try
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: to learn from it so I can be competitive if
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: I want to be competitive. That's where I come from
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: I missed the lack of melody and music. I missed
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: the lack of bridges. I missed the lack of what
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: I learned from Motown when I learned from all the
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: great songs, an you won't can hear no Burt Backright
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: tape songs no more unless I maybe it's Golden Hour,
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: which Golden Hour is genius. But you don't hear a
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: lot of music, not necessarily anymore.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: So I missed that.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: I can't lie about it, you know, but as being
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: a producer, if you hire me as a producer, then
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: you're hiring me to be competitive with what's going on.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: So I got to know what's going on. So I
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: learned from it and I used parts I like and
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: then mix it with But I think it's some good music.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: That's what I've always kind of done, really mix good
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: music with the thing of the day.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, this is audio only and people can't see. But
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: you're wearing jewelry around your neck. What is that jewelry represent? Oh?
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: I have a cross today I'm across my wife gave me.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: I want to make sure I'm telling you the truth,
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: nothing but the truth. I got a little hook from
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: that grit, great film, Well the Maana the hook Man.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: I got some beautiful beads from my son Michael. He's
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: five years old, Keep me youthful happy. I got some
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: beets from Hawaii the Aloha love Spirit. I want to
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: break tround bringing everything to you for your interview because
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: I heard all about you.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: Two things.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: When I did a concert with Jeff Beck at the Grammys.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: You said something that was very kind about my work
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: at the Grammys of Jeff Beck. I don't know, I
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: don't even know what it was now you said, but
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: it was just something that was kind, and I thought,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: this is very nice, and I have wanted to find
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: out more about you. Then I realized, you know, you're
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: you're not spoken cat. So then I say, well, you
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: want to do, like, you know, an hour and a
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: half podcast. I'm like, okay, you know, I want to
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: bring the best to you because I know you you
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: want you want to know what's going on.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: So here while you're doing you've have brought the best.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: So just tell me a little bit. You know the
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: other thing people can't see. They can't see your studio.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: Tell me about your studio. Oh, it's the best.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: Tarpan Studios it was first Tres Virgo, a pre existing
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: place where they've done Greg Grateful Dad, Stuart Copan, your
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: big guest. I heard that show you're recorded in here
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: for Rumblefish right out there. It's just a massively beautifully
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: built room with great wood at each room is isolated
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: with iron steel, so it's really like the gooda one
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: of isolation going on.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: What about equipment, are you equipment geek?
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: I'm not a geek. No, those are those my engineers.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: I've got the SSL console from the day we used
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: to have tried and console. Now it's SSL. I have
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: to have my tape machines over here if I want tape.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: But we're mainly pro tools. Can't lie about it, mainly
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: pro tools, you know. And got great microphones quite frankly.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: My favorite microphone is a cheap microphone, the SM seven.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: That's why I used for a wreathing for Whitney because
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: it cauld handle screaming and tender at the same time.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: So I got some good, good mins ic got my
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: drums here. I got some keyboards and things. But I'm
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: not like equipment geek as much as I am song.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: I love songs, and.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: Tell me about the racism experienced in the business. Say
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: it again, what is it? What racism? Yeah, you said racism, right, racism?
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: A racis what you want to know? Man, what do
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: you want to know? What you want to know? Well,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: you're an interesting cat because, first and foremost, whether it
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: be racism or not, a lot of rock music was white, okay,
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: and you played in jazz and rock and you know
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: it's listen, we live in a racist country and I'm
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: sure it's something you've experienced. Yeah. I have.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: At the same time, I learned how to how to
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: how to get through it. And the way to get
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: through is just keep being bad ass and don't worry
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: You know you don't.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: You can't crack you in on a rolling Stone magazine.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: You're gonna ever be on a rolling Stone magazine, you
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. You learn to live with the
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: reality of what it is. At the same time, you
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: keep kicking ass.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: That's what I do.
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: No matter who I am with, I kick ass. If
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: I'm with Jeff Bett, kicking that ass, he loves it.
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: Whoever it is, whatever, kick the ass in the studio,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: kicked the ass. Don't worry about the thing, just do it.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: Put it down, Put it down. You talked about.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: When you first went to see Mahavi shu to Orchestra,
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: you were in a bad place and you thought the
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: world was in a bad place. What do you think
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: about the space that the world's in today.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: I think we're gone. You go two steps forward, one
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: step back. I think we're still going one step back.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: We're still kind of requestioning. What we did when we
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: went two steps forward was really good. Now we're step
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: back to kind of reassess everything and then doing so,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: we're getting caught up in the quicksands.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: The quicksands are catching us.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: So I'm praying we can kind of get the quicksand
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: off our boots and be able to step a little
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: bit forward now on the light. Keep what we were
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: searching for, what Martin Luther King tried to put down
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: the sixties, feeling good about each other, feeling good about
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: trying to bring love to the situation.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: Even the hippies smoking the little grass Hendricks, the flower power.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: Keep that love going, the flower power, keep the love
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: for the family, for yourself, for each other. It's important
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: America thrives on the best of all of us coming together.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: What will the world will be with that little Richard
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: and the music came.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: Out out of New Orleans and Louis Armstrong and Ray
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: Charles and all that music came down.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: So we have to love America. That's what I'm saying.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: Let's not go back, Let's go forward. Let's not let
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: anyone like divide us. All that dividing thing is bullshits.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: We got to see it together, you know. And when
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: I watch sports, I see a lot of black cats
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: playing the football and white's cats are embracing that. That's wonderful.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: Let's keep it going. Let's keep it all going. We
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: need each other and music brings us together, which is
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: what I love the most.
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: Speaking.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: Our racist might can go to inn in the country
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: and play the music and they love it. So I
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 2: found a secret how to get above it. Just play
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: the music and bring us all together.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: And you've accomplished so much. Anything that you're reaching for
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: in the time you have left, hopefully thirty years or so.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: But anything you want to implic sure, doom. I want
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: to accomplish that. I'll make you happy today. You're a
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: smile makes me happy because I know if I make
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: you smile, because I know you've heard a lot of music.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: Then you've been and you're a Taurus. You're born at
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: the April twenty first, like that April twenty second. A second, Yeah, yeah,
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: you're born David, David before you, but a year later.
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: Well okay, see if I can make you happy. Shoot, man,
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: I'm doing I'm doing something. I'm doing something. Well, you
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: really have made me happy. This has been a wonderful surprise.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: You're a great rock and tour fascinating stories, Nord. I
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: want to thank you so much for spending time with
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: my audience.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Bob, and do come and visit us
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: to tarp Insidios. You know I'd love to and anything
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: I ever do with you. I'm down with you now.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Till next time. This is Bob Left
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: Sets