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What Liberal Christianity Might Be Missing with Katherine Willis Pershey · Future Christian

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  Martha Tatarnic (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Martha Tatarnic (00:18) Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Lauren Richmond Jr. is in conversation with Catherine Willis Pershey. Catherine serves as co-pastor of First Congregational UCC Appleton, Wisconsin, having previously served congregations in Illinois and California. She is the author of Very Married, Field Notes on Love and
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  Fidelity, and co-author of Love Letters to God, and is a regular contributor to the Christian century. She received a D-Min from the Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination at Western Theological Seminary in 2024. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at loren at resonatemediapro.com. with
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  comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your support in making this podcast possible. Loren Richmond Jr (01:28) My name is Loren Richmond Jr. and I am pleased to be welcoming today Reverend Dr. Katherine Willis-Pershy. Hello, welcome to the show. Katherine (01:36) Thanks for having me, I'm glad to be here. Loren Richmond Jr (01:38) Looking forward to this conversation. Sheriff, would, anything else you want listeners to know about you? What part of the, you're
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  recording from Wisconsin today, is that right too? Katherine (01:48) I am. I have been here for two years now, just about. Before that, I was in the Chicago suburbs for about 14 years. Before that, I was in California for eight years, went to seminary and served a small church on the coast, which somebody had to do it. But I am originally from Ohio, so I have lived some places. Loren Richmond Jr (02:09) Ha You're like really suffering for Jesus there, right? Katherine (02:14) Hahaha Loren
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  Richmond Jr (02:17) Share if you would about your faith background and journey, what that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today. Katherine (02:23) Yeah, well, I grew up in a United Methodist church. I was very briefly evangelical in middle school. There were some ⁓ youth directors in my middle school youth group who were pretty influenced by that world. And so I had the opportunity to get saved at a Carmen concert, which was a pretty formative exp- yeah, right? That takes you
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  back. ⁓ Yeah. And again, at a Billy Graham. Loren Richmond Jr (02:45) Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Katherine (02:53) What did they call them? Crusade. So went down for that. Went down for that call. What do you call it? A altar call. Yeah. So so got saved a few times, but that didn't really ⁓ stick. And so went through a period of not really sure what I believed in. And but when I was about 15 at ⁓ at church camp, I went to Methodist Church Camp because that's what you did. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr
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  (02:55) Yes? Yes? Alter call? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katherine (03:23) I started thinking I might be called to ministry, which was deeply confusing for someone who wasn't sure she believed in God. And so, in conversation with a couple of UCC pastors, I thought, who were camp counselors, seminarians who were serving as camp counselors there, ⁓ they were less surprised than I was. ⁓ And over time, I thought, well, maybe I'll be a Unitarian Universalist pastor. That made sense. Loren Richmond Jr (03:31)
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  Hmm. Hmm. Katherine (03:52) sense. But ⁓ when I was in college and worshiping with that community, I realized I really missed Jesus. And so made my way back to ⁓ Christianity by way of a religious society of friends, Quaker worship, ⁓ but was again still feeling called to ministry. So took a job as a youth pastor at an Episcopal church. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (03:53) Mm-hmm. Hmm. huh. Katherine (04:21) didn't imagine myself as a priest and so had a professor and a campus minister ⁓ who were
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  married couple who were disciple pastors, joined the disciples, went to seminary, ordained a disciple, served that church in California that was a disciple congregation and have been serving UCC churches ever since. So I've been around some interesting ecumenical blocks here. ⁓ really was a pretty ⁓ typically liberal Christian in my seminary days. ⁓ You know, took that pendulum swing from the evangelical junior high, know, Billy Graham Crusades. But I've come to a different place now where I
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  feel ⁓ that I still embrace certainly the inclusion, the commitment to ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (04:57) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Katherine (05:19) justice that is so strong in the progressive tradition, but ⁓ I would say a more ⁓ orthodox ⁓ theological, deeply ⁓ Jesus-centered ⁓ Christian spirituality and theology. Loren Richmond Jr (05:23) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's funny, like I think of myself as ecumenical, having a big broad ecumenical ⁓ church working tradition and man, you've got me, you got me
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  pretty close to beat here. Katherine (05:53) I didn't even mention all the communities that I managed to hit. Most of them. But yeah, I did manage to make a lot of stops on the way to where I am now. Loren Richmond Jr (06:03) I mean, like, Quaker alone, like, I feel like that's not... That's gonna be empty on a lot of folks' bingo card, you know what I'm saying? Katherine (06:11) It was an amazing experience and I actually felt really resonant with my family tradition. have both my
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  grandmother and my uncle graduated from a small Quaker college in Ohio. And so it kind of felt important to spend some time there. And really at the time was probably the only Christian community I handle because there wasn't liturgy and a sermon and I didn't know what I believed. And so I wasn't going to kind of get up and walk away. ⁓ because there wasn't anything to fight with. It was just listening for the still small voice. So I still feel like I'm a little bit Quaker on the inside. Loren
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  Richmond Jr (06:44) Hmm. Yeah, feel like there's some wisdom there. Some wisdom there of that. What are some spiritual practices you're willing to share you find meaningful? Katherine (07:05) I think that I do still have that. Quaker-ish if we can pretend that's a word. Intention to listen for this still small voice. I think I do that ⁓ through prayer. Oftentimes I do find the most resonance through praying the Psalms and the Celtic daily prayer, though I would be remiss to add that I do not
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  manage to pray the Celtic daily prayer daily. That would be a misnomer. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (07:15) Yeah. hehe Katherine (07:39) I also find spiritual direction to be invaluable. I work with a spiritual director who is, I would say, probably more ⁓ evangelical in her ⁓ spiritual orientation, but that really works for me ⁓ incredibly well. ⁓ It's a really good fit. And then ⁓ honestly, my most important spiritual practice is corporate worship. Loren Richmond Jr (07:57) Mm-hmm. Katherine
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  (08:08) I'm not one of those pastors who isn't able to worship just because I'm leading worship. And even when I'm off on any given Sunday, I generally want to be in the pews. Loren Richmond Jr (08:08) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Well, Katherine's here today to talk about a little bit about a little piece she wrote for the Christian Century last year, and then more broadly speaking about the subject or topic of that piece. So you wrote a piece just about Eugene Peterson and your
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  appreciation for him. So to begin, why don't you just talk about maybe introduce for for listeners who may not be familiar with Eugene Peterson, who he was, and how you came to know him and what you found intriguing or attractive about him. Katherine (09:02) Yes, so ⁓ I actually first knew Eugene Peterson as the author of or the translator of the message paraphrase, ⁓ which was super popular, particularly among, would say probably more evangelicals in the early 2000s. Maybe it started coming
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  out in the 90s and I didn't really think that much of it. didn't particularly resonate with me. didn't and it wasn't something that was popular among Loren Richmond Jr (09:17) Yeah. Yeah. Katherine (09:32) my people when I was in seminary. ⁓ And I didn't even, I don't think I even knew that he also was known as a pretty significant pastoral theologian before he did that translation. ⁓ But in my first years of ministry, I felt very adrift. ⁓ And I, in the article that I wrote for the century, ⁓
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  which I originally had titled, Please Read Eugene, but Loren Richmond Jr (09:45) Mm-hmm. Katherine (10:01) ⁓ I think they probably wisely renamed it, Please Liberal Christians, Read Eugene Peterson, because ultimately that is kind of who I was speaking to. ⁓ I really struggled to experience God. I was very much ⁓ a spiritual seeker, ⁓ obviously through all the ⁓ wandering through different Loren Richmond Jr (10:08) Hmm Right. Yeah. Katherine (10:31) ⁓ denominations and traditions. I didn't
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  even mention that I was also briefly thinking I would become Buddhist. ⁓ I just felt like I was a pastor who was going through the motions of running a church, which is a phrase that Eugene uses in his books as kind of a not a great way to be a pastor. But I didn't. Loren Richmond Jr (10:37) Wow. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Katherine (11:00) ⁓ I didn't know what I was actually supposed to do and be as a pastor, the sort of heart of ministry and the heart of a minister. And I was really struggling. And then
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  I encountered two books, Christ Plays in 10,000 Places, which is one of his later spiritual theology books, and then Working the Angles, which is one of his probably later, ⁓ pastoral theology books that he wrote when he was really worked up because he was writing his books at the rise of the sort of mega church, ⁓ kind of pastors entrepreneur ⁓ movement. And he felt like pastors were abandoning their vocation and churches were turning themselves into sort of, sort of shopping malls, yeah,
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  corporations, exactly. Loren Richmond Jr (11:40) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Corporations? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Katherine (12:00) And he was a little like worked up in that book and and I actually sort of wanted to be called to the principal's office and to be told what it was I was supposed to be doing. So I didn't mind the stern, the sternness of that book. And then when I had an opportunity to. Loren Richmond Jr (12:12) Interesting. Katherine (12:25) I was accepted to a Writing in the Pastoral Life
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  workshop with Eugene in Collegeville, Minnesota the last year he taught it. I've always felt called pretty equally to writing and ministry. And if I forget, I should totally plug my books at some point, which is embarrassing, but I'm going to do it anyway. Anyway, I got to spend a week with him and it turns out like he can come across in his writing as sort of stern. Loren Richmond Jr (12:42) Yes, let's do for sure. Katherine (12:54) and cranky. He was the most gentle, incredible human being.
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  I mean, he was passionate and had conviction, but also had like deep laugh lines and like twinkly eyes. And then I had to go back and read these books with that tone of voice. Anyway, I just, he became this person who could write in a way Loren Richmond Jr (13:18) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Katherine (13:24) that made me more vulnerable to the ⁓ possibility of actually encountering God in scripture and in prayer. think, now I'm not going to quote it right, but my professor from my doctoral program, I went
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  on to do a doctor of ministry from the Eugene Peterson Center at Western, when, and I'll paraphrase, said something to the effect of in Eugene's writing, we encounter something about God that we can't otherwise know. And that is what I experienced when I read Eugene's writing. So it was both a revelation for my personal spiritual life, but also my understanding of what it meant to be a pastor. Loren Richmond Jr (13:58) Hmm. Yeah, yeah. thinking a couple different things. First, I'll give a
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  shout out to someone else from Western Theological Summary who I've had on the podcast twice. think Chuck DeGroote, who I'm a big fan of his work. And then something that strikes me about Peterson that I always, that I found appreciative. And I was looking back, like his, message was published from 93 to 2002. So it's been around like a while. Katherine (14:32) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (14:49) it's hard to believe it's been around that long, but it's been, it's been a minute for sure. But
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  like, Peterson has struck me who has like successfully or fairly successfully, least during his time, like straddled both evangelical and mainline worlds. Like that thought came to mind because I had this conversation with ⁓ Chuck in a past podcast, kind of about Western, like there was folks from evangelical and mainline traditions. I that's very, I suppose, I don't know if counter-cultural is too strong of a word here, but that's very non- that's not something we see a lot today. Someone who
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  can successfully like interact in both worlds. Is that fair? Katherine (15:34) Yes, and I do think it should be named that he was generally pretty uncomfortable in like the big shiny evangelical world. That was not, those weren't his people per se. You know, he grew up Pentecostal, ⁓ but was part of the main line. He was PCUSA, but never, it's not like he ever repudiated his Pentecostalism. And now that's a sentence that's a tongue twister, say that six times. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (15:44) Mm.
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  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ha Katherine (16:04) So one thing that I think ends up being the case for people who straddle the evangelical and mainline worlds and who can comfortably move between them, which I count myself, you know, I named that my spiritual director, who is one of the most cherished people in my life. People who move between those worlds often are never fully comfortable in. Loren Richmond Jr (16:22) Right. Katherine (16:33) in either of them. So it's not that you're actually
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  comfortable across the spectrum. You're actually never really fully comfortable. when you're OK, now I'm just going to say when I when I'm amongst the conservatives, I mean, we're just going to pretend that there's this binary, even though it's not. It's a it's a it's a messy, beautiful spectrum. You know, I'm always the liberal amongst the conservatives. Loren Richmond Jr (16:34) Yeah. Yes. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Katherine (17:02) and the quote unquote conservative amongst the liberals,
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  even though I don't really think I'm either. When you find yourself able to interface, you always are a little bit a fish out of water in all the worlds. But I wouldn't really trade the ability to be in relationship across those. Loren Richmond Jr (17:10) Mm-hmm. Katherine (17:29) divides because there are such gifts in the different worlds. And I do think Eugene was really gifted at being in all those worlds. And maybe it wasn't as rare as it is now that we're even more divided than we were
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  25, 30 years ago. Loren Richmond Jr (17:49) Yeah, I think, I think that's important to name that. like, I'm certainly when I think about what I, what I try to do at Martha, my cohost, like we really try to talk to people across the spectrum of Christianity in North America. like, I, of my last, my last three guests or episodes of I released them are all folks firmly within evangelicalism. And I think. I don't know if maybe this is belaboring the point or just kind of like bemoaning my own, you
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  know, like, woe is me. Hopefully it's not this, but it does seem like there's this sense within a, at least American Christian right now. Like if you're not on one side or the other, like that's even worse of a problem. Katherine (18:39) Yeah, and I'm sure there are people who look at who you've interviewed and say, he's not in our camp. And there's the sort of purity test. Now, I mean, to be clear, like I have some extraordinarily strong convictions that I feel are non-negotiable when it comes
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  to, I mean, my church is, Loren Richmond Jr (18:46) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Katherine (19:09) unapologetically and loudly inclusive of LGBTQ people. And I am, I am presently today kind of in a state of mourning because the state of Kansas has overnight revoked licenses, driver's licenses from transgender people. I am not, that, that emerges for me out of my Loren Richmond Jr (19:14) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Katherine (19:37) deep and abiding conviction that Jesus is the son of God who came to
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  save the world and is a person of profound love and compassion and empathy. And there's, it flows from that. And I realized that oftentimes these are put in separate camps or separate, they're, and I'm not trying to say that progressive Christians Loren Richmond Jr (19:45) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Katherine (20:07) don't love Jesus or that people who are concerned about Kansas or, you I'm not trying to say that never the twain shall meet. Loren Richmond Jr (20:16) Mm-hmm. Katherine (20:18) And
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  maybe I've just, I didn't intend to bring that up, but my convictions about justice. are utterly flowing from my convictions about who Jesus is. ⁓ But that's always gonna come first. And one of the frustrations I have is when it doesn't come first, then we aren't able to be in relationship. Because the one thing about Jesus is he was always relational. Loren Richmond Jr (20:41) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's an important point to bring up. And it reminds me about you, something you wrote
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  about in your piece about personal piety versus social justice. And those are my words for the question, but you wrote about a longing to really know or experience God. I think that connects with what you just said. Should you want to talk more about that? Katherine (21:21) Yeah, and maybe it was on my mind because I actually kind of regret the way I phrased some of that, the article about this, because I think I set it up that in seminary and in the early years of ministry, it felt like there
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  was this false dichotomy that you were either going into ministry, well, I mean, it felt like a lot of people were going into ministry because they were wanted to pursue a vision of social justice. They were called to ministries of social justice. And in many ways, that's what I felt. But I also felt this deep emptiness in my lack of encountering God and really my lack of a sense of personal piety. And I really do want to reclaim that word piety. Loren Richmond Jr (21:54) Right. Mm-hmm. Hmm.
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  Mm-hmm. Katherine (22:18) I love that word and I hate that it's become, I mean obviously pious has a bad connotation, but piety is about devotion. Anyway, ⁓ what I do think I was experiencing was the cart before the horse. And what I think I'm trying to say by bringing up Kansas is that, Loren Richmond Jr (22:25) Right. Katherine (22:47) When I began to experience a deeper relationship with God and a ⁓ trust in the realness of God, every week my benediction ends with, God is real and God is
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  good and God is always with you. Because I do feel like in this so-called secular age, people need to hear again and again, God is real. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (23:11) Right. God is a real... Katherine (23:16) that my capacity to pursue justice became very much less this thing that was like justice with Jesus sprinkled on top, but became a vision of, I mean, really became much more eschatological in nature. There's this incredible Porter's Gate lyric where, and I'm gonna paraphrase this too, but
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  it's about, Loren Richmond Jr (23:29) Yeah. Hmm... Mm-hmm. Katherine (23:44) to empower us to participate in the victories you have already won or to fight for the victories you've already won. Loren Richmond Jr (23:51) Yeah, yeah. Katherine (23:53) and to like where there's utterly no seam between our faith and our commitment to justice. And in the early days, there was a divorce. It was one or the other. And so again, I think that it came out like I was putting forth this dichotomy
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  because there was one in my immature faith. Loren Richmond Jr (24:09) Yeah. Yeah. Sure, Yeah. I'm thinking of, I think you follow his work much like I do. I'm thinking of Andrew Root's, can't remember which book it is. Yeah. It's like, it's like folks have it on the bingo card of when they listen to me, either in my sub stacks or podcast. Will Andrew Root come up? Check. I think it's like eschatology and youth ministry. So it's like one of his early books or earlier books. Like he talks
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  about justice or acts of compassion. I can't remember the verbiage he uses being like, Katherine (24:29) I knew you were gonna say that name. Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (24:53) bearing witness to like, this is how the world is supposed to be and it's gonna be, which I feel like is a totally different move than like, it's on me. Right. Right. ⁓ cause then it's like, I'm just like, I'm just saying like, this is the world is not how it should be. This is how God wants the world to be. And I'm
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  like, it's a different move to testify and say like this, I'm just testifying to what is and will be. Katherine (24:58) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (25:22) And it's less about like performative. It's less about. weighing on me to produce it, which are manufactured on my own. And to me, that's really just like such a gift. Katherine (25:39) Yeah, I mean, that even speaks to his book that is the most accessible, which I'm so glad he came along and co-wrote with Blair Russ Bertrand. ⁓ The need
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  for the church to finally stop just focusing on our mission, but to trust in God's action. I mean that. Loren Richmond Jr (25:49) Yeah, portrayed I think. Mm-hmm. Katherine (26:07) I think I did have a conversation with Andy last year and I got the sense, he didn't come out and say this, so this is not a paraphrase. This is my theory and I could be totally wrong. But I got the sense that he's almost bewildered at how much I think that there's a line between his work and Eugene Peterson. But
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  to me it goes back to this shift from our effort ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (26:16) Sure. Katherine (26:37) and ⁓ sort of striving and angst and the focus on what we're doing to this ⁓ shift to trust and wonder and... ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (26:46) Yeah. Katherine (26:56) mystery and again, really, so the other piece is that I think is another direct line between Eugene and Andy and what I think Eugene was starting to recognize that has now exploded is the secularity of our time. Eugene was also
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  pushing against the push Loren Richmond Jr (26:58) Yeah. Katherine (27:26) for pastors to become little sort of, mean, pastoral care turning into fake therapists. You know, the therapeutic ⁓ model of ministry. I mean, he talks in the Contemplative Pastor about our call to the cure of souls, which is a very old fashioned term. And that first book that I encountered that Loren Richmond Jr (27:36) Yeah, yeah Mm-hmm. Katherine (27:55) that we are to be spiritual directors, proclaim the text,
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  proclaim scripture. And ⁓ man, I shouldn't have brought up the angles of ministry unless I was gonna have all three of them. It's the core of ministry, prayer, spiritual direction, and proclaiming scripture. That's what we're called to do. Loren Richmond Jr (28:18) You That's okay. There you go. There you go. You got it. I want to respond to a couple of things here because I think this is so, I'm resonating like, you know, I think the connection is you can tell me cause I felt like a strong
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  connection, maybe strong as over word, but certainly similar themes. When I was rereading Walter Brueggemann's The Prophetic Imagination, I was talking about this in a podcast with Dwight Shiley and Blair Pogue. I think the connection is like they believe in a living act of God, like the God is real. Maybe that's too simplistic. ⁓ that's certainly a connection that I drew. And then it's interesting that the idea of talking about the therapeutic model of ministry, like, I think I see this so
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  often, like right now, my primary ministry is chaplaincy, hospital chaplaincy. Like the thing that I love about being a chaplain is like I can wear my faith on my sleeve and like a less, I don't know. intimidating manner, I suppose. Like people don't have the same understandings of pastor versus chaplain. But one of the things I don't like is there is this sense, I think within some chaplains, like we're just like making everybody feel good about whatever they believe. And I'm like, like I am,
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  that's not how I see my ministry at all, for sure. I feel like I'm trying to share the love of God with folks and be a witness of God's presence and love and power. So I suppose I'm getting us off track here, but something you did write about also in this story is about Peterson's edges. Do you want to talk more about what you mean by that? Katherine (30:12) I should have asked you what you meant by, can you tell me a little bit more what you mean by edges? Loren Richmond Jr (30:19) Now don't
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  remember myself. You wrote gracious and beautiful. I remember highlighting gracious and beautiful. Katherine (30:27) I mean, I think that particularly in relation to his theological, he's theologically challenging for a lot of liberal readers. He is more orthodox, ⁓ but in the way that he interprets scripture, like I think one of his best books is his ⁓ book on revelation, for instance. But there is an extraordinary ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (30:40) Yeah. Hmm. Katherine (30:55) beauty and
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  graciousness in the way that he writes about scripture, even though there is also that capacity to be stern. Again, in the way that he writes about ministry, ⁓ there is that feeling that you've been called to the principal's office sometimes, ⁓ but it's a good principle. Sorry, when I said that I thought about ⁓ the principle from saved by the bell, not that kind of principle, but still a good. Loren Richmond Jr (31:08) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Not building. Katherine (31:25) not belting thank
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  you for remembering ⁓ we must be the same generation ⁓ but i i do want to affirm what you said i don't think it's simplistic to say that these ⁓ writers that we're naming these theologians are all in agreement that that it that there is a real an active god the the god who is god i think that that is Loren Richmond Jr (31:49) Mm-hmm. Katherine (31:54) why they are resonating with us. And that is why some of the theologians and particularly I think some of the biblical scholars that I was ⁓
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  asked to read in seminary ⁓ didn't resonate with me because there was a fundamental, ⁓ know, the liberal theological academy wanted to be in Loren Richmond Jr (32:15) Hmm... Yeah. Yeah. Katherine (32:23) conversation with respectable secular ⁓ academy. And so it was embarrassing to have a real active God in the room. And I think that's where you get Peterson's edges is he's never going to apologize for believing in a Loren Richmond Jr (32:24) Right. Right. Yeah. Katherine (32:50) a god
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  who can sometimes be embarrassing to good liberals. Loren Richmond Jr (32:54) Boy, that's a quote right there. A God who can be embarrassing. Hold on, I gotta write that down. ⁓ It strikes me that the way that you were kind of just, this is like a podcast that we're kind of just crushing on our theological influences, I suppose. But it strikes me that the way you're talking about Peterson is the way that I talked about Andrew Root for that same reason. Like for that same reason, because like I
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  first encountered Andrew Root's work when on this podcast, I like to often talk about people doing innovative stuff. And he had a book coming out, what his innovation and Gosh, can't remember the title now. Innovation in... Katherine (33:35) probably looking at it, but it's the one where he says, stop talking about innovation. Loren Richmond Jr (33:40) Yeah, I'm looking over my shoulder. Church after innovation. So I read that. Katherine (33:43) Yeah, yeah, I'm looking at it. I have my
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  Andrew Root section over here in my like shrine area of my office. Loren Richmond Jr (33:47) Yeah, mine is right here. We're so, we're listeners, we're pathetic, forget us. ⁓ So I read that first and I was like, oh yeah, this, this, this makes sense. Like innovation is not going to save the church. Sure. And then like the next book I think I read after that was churches in the crisis decline. And I was like, like that rocked my world. was like, holy smokes. This is it. Like, this is it. Like
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  this fundamental belief that like the crisis is not declined. The crisis that we don't believe in a living God. And like, that was, I don't know, three, four years ago. And I just. Katherine (34:17) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (34:28) almost unilaterally shaped my... So yeah, like I can understand how you've... theologians and for Peterson, you for Peterson has been so influential. Like you write about that he taught you to pray again. And I sort of laughed about you writing that. Cause I
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  remember like when I was in seminary again, thinking about like these academic influences, like I didn't pray for like eight years. ⁓ cause I felt like who, who prays like... Katherine (34:59) Yeah, I just resonate with that so deeply. And I also want to say that Churches in the Crisis of Decline was a book that also is very important to me. I reviewed it for the Christian century ⁓ and I loved it. I don't think I would have been able to read it if it hadn't also had Andrew Root's little sort
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  of novel that he wrote. Loren Richmond Jr (35:16) Hmm. Yeah. Katherine (35:29) because it's so hard and I'm not Loren Richmond Jr (35:29) Yeah. Katherine (35:31) that smart. And he has this little ⁓ story that is threaded through that helps you understand what the heck he's talking about and the hard parts. But this is why, I mean, we are riffing on our, you know, the theologians who are both giving us prayer and also maybe making us nerd out a little bit. There is this. Loren Richmond Jr
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  (35:40) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Favorite theologians, yeah. Katherine (35:56) I mean, these theologians are kind of helping integrate mind and heart in really phenomenal ways. But this is why pastors really need to keep reading. Loren Richmond Jr (35:56) Yeah. Yeah. Katherine (36:07) Can I say that again? And promise me you won't edit it out. This is why pastors need to keep reading. And one of my favorite things about Eugene Peterson is that he blocked out two hours, I think it was on Thursday
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  afternoons, maybe it was Tuesdays, I don't remember. And he would block it out and he would actually, ⁓ I know that one of his favorites was to read Dostoevsky. Loren Richmond Jr (36:08) Yes. I promise. Hmm. Katherine (36:35) And if somebody said, ⁓ can I meet with you on Thursday afternoon? And he would say, ⁓ the appointment book will not allow it because he had a date with Dostoevsky. Loren Richmond Jr (36:42) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's important. I mean, all these
• 4:08
  practices about maintaining our own groundedness. I used to think when I was in church parish ministry, that it was silly. These people who went out to like pray for a day. You know, I was just so steeped in this like obsession with fulfilling the need to be productive of doing more of, you know, not feeling that was efficient time, so to speak. ⁓ yeah. And having that groundedness really, really is important. Katherine (37:23) It's also really hard and I confess, I am completely failing at it
• 4:12
  these days because I am serving a large growing congregation. I am busy. And one of his best chapters is called The Unbusy Pastor. He says, you can't be busy and pray. That's a phenomenal Eugene Petersen quote. You can't be busy and pray. And it's true. You can't multitask and pray. Loren Richmond Jr (37:30) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katherine (37:54) and so I really struggled with this. have a lot of ideals about ministry and I, I don't live up to them when I allow myself to get
• 4:16
  pulled into too many, too many things on the calendar. And, and he does, he talks about, know, we have to, we have to protect our, our time for what we are truly called to do, ⁓ as pastors. Loren Richmond Jr (38:22) Yeah. Katherine (38:24) And nobody else is going to do that but the pastor. Loren Richmond Jr (38:27) Yeah. Let's, let's end this section with this question. We talked about before we were recording, like I mentioned, Ryan Burge and his sort of like, his newest book is, is kind of
• 4:20
  a plea for moderates. You said something to the effect of that there's something radical about claiming a moderate position thinking about Eugene Peterson. What else do you want to elaborate on that point or share more there? Katherine (38:55) I mean, I think I tip my hand a little bit that I'm, you know, in a lot of ways I'm not moderate. I mean, I'm super orthodox when it comes to what I believe about Jesus. Like, I kind of think I actually believe in like virgin birth. Like, that's pretty,
• 4:24
  like, whoa. Like, I believe in the ascension. Like, I believe in like the Holy Spirit and like tongues. Loren Richmond Jr (39:15) Yeah, yeah Yeah. Katherine (39:25) I know that this is an audio only podcast, but I just made a tongue of fire with my hand, like waggling fingers. great. Like I am not a biblical literalist, but I believe I'm real into the Bible. I'm pretty, like I said, pretty eschatological. I think Jesus is gonna come back and it's gonna be real awesome. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr
• 4:28
  (39:29) Yeah, I'm gonna yeah, I'll put that on social media for scatter Hmm. Hmm. Katherine (39:53) And I also am very, very progressive in a lot of ways. ⁓ And so it's not like when I talk about what it means to be moderate, I think, I don't even know if anybody would say I'm a moderate, but I think there's something radical about ⁓ like really being willing to be in in genuine conversation and share space with people who don't necessarily share convictions. ⁓ And I really try to make that
• 4:32
  a discipline, like a spiritual discipline. ⁓ And I have some close friends with whom I do not share some of my deepest convictions, theologically and ⁓ socially. Loren Richmond Jr (40:25) Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Katherine (40:52) which I don't even know if I can separate those, because they're, I don't know. Anyway, and those are some, I mean, those friendships are dear to me. And that's kind of where I'm a radical moderate, or moderately radical, I don't know. Loren Richmond Jr (40:52)
• 4:36
  Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sure. Have you heard that term, like this is political term, but horseshoe theory? Like Ryan Burge and others talk about this, but it's basically this idea, like, you know, imagine a horseshoe and like what we really consider left and right, like in, it's really been bent into a horseshoe. So like the furthest extremes on left and right are really like, Katherine (41:11) Hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (41:33) Hopefully you can understand my imagery here, like at the bottom of the
• 4:40
  horseshoe and up in the curve is everybody else or essentially. like the extremes are really closer to one another than they might think. And it's less than like, it's less than like opinions or beliefs. It's more like practices and in, but. Katherine (41:59) I also wonder how much of it has to do with people who are extremely online and how many people are actually normal, like, I don't wanna say normal, but it's not normal to be extremely online and to be hanging out in the comment section of
• 4:44
  the, you know, local newspaper posting mean things. Like mean comments about, you know, on either side. Like that's not. Loren Richmond Jr (42:03) Yeah. Right. Right. Katherine (42:25) I don't know. Like there's gotta be some horseshoe about that. Loren Richmond Jr (42:33) let's take a break. We're back with Reverend Dr. Katherine Willis-Pershey. So really appreciate this conversation. So closing questions, you can take these as seriously or not as you'd like to. But if you're a pope for a
• 4:48
  day, what might you want to do with that day? Katherine (42:51) I had to laugh at this question because I mean, I'm a female pastor, so I don't think that anybody wants me to be Pope, but I think I would say maybe there could be female pastors if this is about, I don't know. I don't think you want me to answer that question. I don't know what to do with that one. Loren Richmond Jr (43:13) Okay, that's fine. That's fine. How about this a theologian or historical Christian figure you want to
• 4:52
  meet or bring back to life besides Peterson, I suppose. Katherine (43:24) Yeah, no, I mean, I'll let him rest in peace. Honestly, like I already mentioned Dostoevsky, but I am also a huge Dostoevsky fan. Reading the Brothers Karamazov in college was ⁓ a significant part of what was bringing me back to ⁓ the Christian faith. ⁓ The Grand Inquisitor is an incredible chapter of that book. ⁓ I love that book. Loren Richmond Jr (43:44) Hmm. Okay, yeah. Katherine (43:54) just reread it a couple
• 4:56
  summers ago. So I don't know if I really want to meet Dostoevsky, the man, but I'm sure it would be fascinating. Loren Richmond Jr (44:03) Yeah, yeah. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? Katherine (44:09) yikes. That it wasn't a very good era. I don't know, man. It's been rough. Loren Richmond Jr (44:15) Hmm. Yeah? Rough indeed. Katherine (44:22) Hopefully that the church became, was going through a time of profound renewal and return to faithfulness,
• 5:00
  right? Let's hope. Loren Richmond Jr (44:33) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's your hopes for the future of Christianity, I would say too, right? Katherine (44:39) Yeah, I really would love to see us. ⁓ Be disciples of Christ. Loren Richmond Jr (44:51) Well, OK, well, this is your opportunity now. ⁓ Plug away the books. Katherine (44:57) Okay, well I do have a website. It's very basic, but you can find me at KatherineWillisPershee.com and there you can find my Christmas pageants which are ⁓
• 5:04
  pretty popular with all sorts of churches. And then I do have a handful of books. ⁓ One that came out a few years ago, very married. Field notes on love and fidelity and Eugene Peterson wrote the foreword, which was amazing I still have the voicemail he left saying he would do that It will always and forever be saved on my phone And then my most recent one is co-authored with Devin Spencer and it's called ⁓ Love letters to God. It's kind of the titles a little misleading. It's actually letters
• 5:08
  exchanged between Devin and myself. She is a Loren Richmond Jr (45:25) Hmm. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Katherine (45:51) recent converts to Christianity and it's kind of a testimony to the role of friendship and faith formation and ⁓ it's about grief. It's about friendship. It's about conflict. It's about everything that happened in the life of two friends over the course of a year and ⁓ yeah so that's ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (46:05) Mm-hmm. Katherine (46:20) just published within the last year. So
• 5:12
  everything is available wherever books are sold. Loren Richmond Jr (46:27) Well, I really appreciate this conversation and it's been great connecting with you. We always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. Katherine (46:36) and also with you.