Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #244: Can MAHA Survive? & Do You Have the Right to Not Be Poisoned?

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Episode #244: Can MAHA Survive? & Do You Have the Right to Not Be Poisoned? · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Culturally, we're asking the wrong questions, screaming about Monsanto, glyphosate, EPA, Supreme Court, all this stuff.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: When people say government should ban this, the government should ban grass chemicals or whatnot.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you have to actually look at how the system was set up.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: How do we return to the health, vigor, and abundance of pre-European America?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everybody.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another Beyond Labels podcast with Joel Salatin.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's me, your farmer, and our favorite researcher, Dr.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're going to delve into some current events that are going on.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we know that there's always a lag between when we record these and when you hear them.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: But this has this has ramifications beyond just obviously current events.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'd like to start with today, uh, Cena, is um yesterday, this was um April the 27th, there was the, maybe many of you saw that, the people versus poison rally uh on the steps of the Supreme Court in Washington, D.C.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this rant lasted uh three hours, nine to twelve.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and we actually weren't on the steps, we were on the sidewalk.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: The police wouldn't let us go up the steps.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there were certainly a couple hundred people there, but um, more than that, the the people that were there were representative, uh Cena, of the the true core of what I'd call the Maha movement.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Zen Honeycut was there, Del Bigtree from Higher Wire.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Zen Honeycutt is the founder of Moms Across America.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh you had uh um you know Del Bigtree, Highwire, uh you had um uh Food Babe, uh she really organized it.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so so the point was that that these people that were there represented constituencies in their own podcasts and their own spheres of influence that were that were far more um that were uh Leah Wilson, um that were far more influential than just the sheer numbers right on site.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So so we were very aware that the that the people that were there behind each one of them stood another you know 5,000 or whatever, 10,000 people that listened to these, you know, folks who were talking.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so the the what what was going on was the Supreme Court was hearing the final appeal.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, I mean, there's a lot of things going on, but as you know, um Monsanto began going getting into litigation crosshairs uh several years ago with non-Hodgkins lymphoma, uh liability lawsuits.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: They won the first two or three cases, and then they began losing.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: During the discovery process, more and more emails were being uncovered.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: More and more um uh, you know, over the over the couple of years of those first uh couple of cases, more and more scientific studies were coming out, and you can probably speak to that scene of some of the things that you've seen that that became more and more um damning, if you will, of uh glyphosate roundup, one of the most ubiquitous herbicides in the world.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so then the the the the tables began turning, and um and then Monsanto was sold to Bayer Corporation.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh by the way, Bayer is the uh outfit in Germany that made the uh gas to kill the um to kill the people in the gas chambers during Nazi Germany.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, their their uh leg their history goes uh is unseemly back for quite a little while.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean they actually made the canisters that they put in the, you know, in the pits to, you know, when they herded the they took off all their clothes, their earrings, everything, you know, and herded them and said, You're gonna take a shower, and then they dropped this this um gas in.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um anyway, Bayer inherited Monsanto's um you know, liability or or problems there.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: They've now spent about 10 billion billion with a B, billion dollars settling um several thousand, uh multi-thousand of these liability suits, but there are still, I don't know, fifty-four thousand or something pending, and there are more waiting in the wings.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the point is that it doesn't it doesn't look good for Bayer.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: They they they began realizing that they were uh in trouble.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they have sought relief, um, not content with one branch of government.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: They're kind of doing a you know a broad approach, let's let's hit all three branches of government.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um so they uh obviously while they were appealing these judgments, what's happened is um their their main protection has been, well, EPA says it's safe.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's safe, then we can't be held liable for a product that the EPA says is safe.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Cena, that's a that's an amazing fill.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is an amazing trust in a in a government agency, uh, don't you think?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And man, anybody listening to our podcasts, I think that you would probably walk away with pretty certain that you would not want to hand over that level of trust to any government agency, like with all the corruption and backdoor deals and just the incompetence alone in the agencies.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're all they're just made up, they're made up of people who largely have families and pay the bills.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, they just want to go home.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, they're they're just like the rest of us.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so uh yeah, I I think that it's way too much power to hand over to people, especially when you think of in the EPA, it's not like you have the entire workforce of the EPA looking at whether or not glyphosate or Roundup causes cancer, right?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: You they usually have like a like a handful of people reviewing it typically.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're leaving this up to just a few people in essence to decide this.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a crazy amount of power in just a handful of people.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And industry knows this, right?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And industry can get to the people, and they do in large part.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, no, it's a it's a huge blind spot.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And but that's not usually what we see is the mentality of the people in Maha, right?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or the pe in in the mentality, the perception of the people who, for example, showed up to this people versus poison rally.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is that true?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you're you're you're foreshadowing where I wanna where I'm I'm moving forward with this because um uh and let me just be transparent.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was there, I was the whatever, the fourth speaker or something.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so they had me early on.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: My my talk was very was very different than everybody else.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody else was screaming and poison and you know how terrible Monsanto is and all this.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and my talk to just thumbnail it was um we all we all had three minutes.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you have three minute talk.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Mine was uh uh three minutes and five seconds, uh 405 words.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um I had it timed pretty close.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um and what I said was, you know, culturally, we're asking the wrong question.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're all sitting up here screaming about Monsanto, glyphosate, EPA, Supreme Court, all this stuff.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the question we need to ask is how do we return to the health, vigor, and abundance of pre-European America, which produced more food than it produces today with chemicals, tractors, hybrid seeds, you know, and and railroad cars.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, most people don't realize that pre-European North America produced more food than it does today.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the assumption is, oh, look at those fertile, you know, cornfields in Nebraska, look at those center pivot irrigations.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and the truth is that uh, and so so I I'm not gonna delve into my three points there of how that abundance happened and how modern American agriculture um violates all three of those basic uh principles.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: But but what I was trying to present, what what what what the um you know what the industry and what the conventional narrative is really relying on, um I mean from a from a a core philosophical belief is that we're all gonna die if we don't have glyphosate.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really, really, I mean this this is, I mean, and and so, and so uh as they began losing in the court, they said, well, let's go for the legislative.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So last year, uh Bayer uh put in a um, I think we've talked about this, they put in this um this indemnity, indemnity shield for from liability in the farm bill.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it got stripped out when there was so much backlash to it.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so then, of course, we all know that over the over the winter they started, you know, uh prying on the on the executive branch, on Trump, to issue this executive order, which he finally did in March of this year, issued this executive order that um that gly that elevated glyphosate to a place of national security.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's remember that this is the first, this is the first specific product in U.S.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: history to be elevated to a point of national security.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So here we are, Cena.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is this not a an amazing cultural thing that we've got we've got a product that is supposedly um necessary for our civilizational survival from the executive branch being looked at by the judicial branch?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it deadly?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Does it kill people?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, if that isn't a a cultural, you know, um and entanglement, I don't know what it is.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, now, to be sure, the Supreme Court is not actually looking at at uh at glyphosate, is it dangerous or not?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the question.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um the question is can a state be more restrictive than the EPA?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: If the EPA says it's safe, can a state say it's unsafe?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're basically back to this to the 1861.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're back to the you know, to to uh federal versus state.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh and keep in mind, like just I'm kind of trying to paint the picture for them.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So as you're on the stairs, on the steps or out in the street in front of the Capitol building at this people versus poison rally, um, you know, really fighting against the the Bayer and Chem China going after our three branches of government, right?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to infiltrate the three branches of government to not have any kind of liability whatsoever.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you're up against the president issuing that executive order protecting glyphosate as part of national security.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: On that same day that you're speaking at that rally was the first day that the Supreme Court started hearing these arguments.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, it was the very first day.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's why the rally, that's why the rally was held.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And also simultaneously, that liability shield, the pesticide liability shield, is thought to be coming back in the farm bill.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and so there's there's talk that this week that we're recording this, um, it might go to a vote, I think, in the House.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you have all of these things culminating simultaneously.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And just a few days before, like six or seven days before, you have Robert Kennedy um speaking in front of um the senators, uh saying, you know, because he's been dragged through the different hearings lately.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: You have him saying right in front of them that um glyphosate does cause cancer, and we should minimize consumption as much as possible.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got all these things happening at the same time.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, and now now take it away with their solution.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, which is opposite to what you were saying.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, I will say I was not there, it's not my kind of thing to go do, but I did hear it.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Dell Big Tree streamed it, and your talk was definitely out of place for but completely resonating with me and very true to your principles.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I found it difficult to watch the rally because there was so much anger and um, you know, in my opinion, just lack of um lack of incentivizing and motivat motivating people to become the solution themselves.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I if I could say that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is which is you when you th when you think of the pent-up angst that was expressed there, I mean, screaming, screaming.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not a screamer.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, um I I'm just not a screamer.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and I mean yes, is there a place for emotion?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's a I mean, uh there's a there's a there is a time for anger, there's a time for frustration, um and and that that's what that's what the rally was.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was uh it was all of that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and so it was a couple of things were very clear from a political uh just bring our listeners up to a bit of the politics of it.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was very clear to me, uh, and and several speakers said this, that uh that um we would not have had that rally had President Trump not signed the executive order that glyphosate is a national security issue.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's number one.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, there was palpable tension regarding RFK Jr.'s endorsement of that executive order.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, behind the scenes, there is talks of he is having to lead a double life right now.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a public life he's got to lead, and he's got a private.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And in his private discussion, he hasn't moved a lick.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: He's still as true blue as anything.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: But in a public, he's fighting for well, he's fighting to not try to not be uh canned.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um Trump has already canned um you know uh Christy No.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, the fact is when a cabinet member becomes a liability, they get canned.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and so every one of them serves, I mean, that's the whole idea of a cabinet.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: The cabinet serves at the behest of the president.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and if the president feels like you're you're a a liability, uh he can, you know, he can and he can replace you.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So so the the these um the these political struggles get really mired up.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um for example, uh let me give you an example.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say, let's say that the and we don't know what's gonna happen.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: By the time people hear this, we will probably know what happened, but um, let let's assume for a for a minute that those um liability, those um liability shields do not get stripped out of the farm bill and the farm guild bill gets voted on.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um the beautiful thing about Congressman Massey is that his he's calling that the subprime act, you know, it used to be the prime act, and now it's the subprime because it's been so it's been so limited as to an experimental status that he's calling it the subprime.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's just massey humor, you know.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what a wonderful guy he is.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but um, but that is still in the farm bill.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and make no doubt, if it if it lasts to the final vote, it will be the first time in 50 years that that the USDA will be ordered uh uh to stand down if a state says, in our state, we're gonna let a T-bone steak be sold without government inspection.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be the first time in 50 years that that freedom has been has been um guaranteed.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you it it sounds you know small, but it's not.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean philosophically because because you know Pete Kennedy, who's you know our favorite favorite attorney friend, has asked for foyer requests over and over the last four or five years uh to make sure from the Food Safety Inspection Service there has never been there has never been a single not one in fifty years, not one incident of of foodborne, uh, of of food pathogenicity, toxicity, or problem from any animal butchered at a custom uninspected custom slaughterhouse.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not one.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Not one.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's zero, zero, zero.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how does that compare to the the other, the federal?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I mean, the other, it it we've got thousands of of recalls and and you know, salmonella, e.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: coli.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're talking about all these big things, salmonella, E.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: coli, campylobacter, listeria.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, think about think about you know, path, you know, bacterial pathogens that you hear about in the food system, not one.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not talking in 50 years.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if it were if it were a hundred, we'd be, wow, that's amazing.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: If it were, but but it's not a hundred, it's not 90, it's not 50, it's zero, zero, zero, not one.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not one.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So so so the track record is impeccable.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting off off topic here, but but um, but actually I'm I'm really not because what because as I was there um listening to the other other speakers, there was a there was a general, well, one, one guy really went after the fact that we can all thank Teddy Roosevelt in 1906.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he talked about Upton Sinclair writing the jungle, and Teddy Roosevelt sent, uh, sent secret, you know, undercover people into the slaughterhouses in Chicago and found out it was actually way worse than you know Upton Sinclair wrote.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, Teddy Roosevelt, uh, you know, who who invented the term um, you know, uh walk quietly with a big stick or bully pulpit, he invented that term too.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, he he he he started the food safety inspection service.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: What was not said was that six months after writing uh the jungle, the big seven companies lost half of their market share because people didn't trust them and they started buying from their local butchers.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the kind of little abattoirs that these custom slaughterhouses that have a perfect a perfect track record within the food pathogen community that these little slaughterhouses had.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, so, you know, so you know, the the tenor of the rally was, oh, we can be so thankful that Teddy Roosevelt, you know, gave us the food safety inspection service to, you know, provide safe products for us, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sitting there about to barf, you know.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'll add, so whoever that speaker was, he cherry-picked his data because the president sent two different teams um to figure out if this was if Upton Sinclair's um claims were true.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: One team came back saying they were true, the other team came back saying it was not true.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that team that said that it was true, one of the guys later on confessed that he wanted to get the legislation passed.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that right there is just cherry-picked.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the full story.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And not only that, but we know, in fact, when my new book comes out, um I'll I'll have it in there uh that there was there was a lot, there was a lot going on around that 1890 um to 1904 time with the beginning of exports to Europe and different things.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: There were lots of of um wrangling.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: There was lots of wrangling going on um as this new industrialization of the food system was coming on and and small slaughterhouses were feeling pinched.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um actually, what's interesting is That the small slaughterhouses asked for state inspection early on to protect them from the filth of the big guys.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it ended up biting them in the back because they got an agency that then, you know, went to bed with the big guys and hurt the little guys.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was frustrating for me there to hear with as many people as I appreciate and agree with and all that.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: That you and I that the government is responsible for making the decision.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: The government is responsible for picking the winners and losers and deciding who is, you know, um who can have access to the market and who can't.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not only that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very frustrating.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And but not only that, take it one step further from what you're saying and what I heard.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not only do, you know, are we saying that they have the power and we want them to do that, they're saying they've been doing a good job.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like goodness for them, you know, which is not what the record shows.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it's it's the uh it's the definition of insanity, right?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've got we've got we've got a century of government oversight.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Look where it got us.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And are we really thankful that we had a century of oversight?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, we are sicker than ever before, and the food is more adulterated than it ever was, even back even compared to the early 1900s.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, very much so.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the very the very notion that that we're still even on the most, you know, whatever, uh um frustrated, vengeful, angry, screaming fringe of this, that we're still looking to the government to make those choices and decisions for us, it's Cena, it's it's almost maddening.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, so for me, it's not maddening because I didn't have to deal with it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, actually, I turned down the volume when I was listening to it because I couldn't, I couldn't tolerate that level of kind of screaming and you know, just anger.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a misplaced anger, right?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we should be looking at ourselves and seeing how did I help create this marketplace that we have.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, what am I saying with my dollars and every single decision that I make with my food?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we should be really focusing on.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but to your point, so for me, it's not that frustrating because um even when Maha first came about, I remember having a conversation with you where I said, you know, let's really make sure that, you know, it's an exciting time.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's an exciting time.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Kennedy's in there, you know, there's a lot of hope going on right now.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully he does great things.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember we had a conversation, and I was like, we got to make sure that we stay true to our principles.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you're right there with me agreeing with this, that our message is not aligned with most of the people in the forefront of the Maha movement.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: We we all have the same goal, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: We all want cleaner food, cleaner water, cleaner soil, health.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: We all want the same goal, but the mechanism to get there is very, very different.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like you have to be selective in even participating in meetings, like you and I just recently experienced in a meeting that we were both called into, right?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: So frustrating because our solution to get to that common goal is so different and it tends to be discounted.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's exactly right.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: It it it's as if it's as if, okay, um, thank you for your comments.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're moving along now, you know, kind of thing.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: It it you get that you get that mentality because because frankly, Cena, um dealing with the root, the root of the problem, it it takes time and deliberation.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and and um, and it's not just a whatever, you know, uh throw throw a tantrum kind of thing.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um and that's we didn't get here overnight.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, we didn't get here overnight.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been over a hundred years of generations and generations of Americans building the food supply that we have now.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish everybody, I wish all of our listeners can sit in on one of these meetings that you and I are sometimes called in on.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because then you would really understand how they're thinking and the limitations, not only of the thinking, but of the government and what the government is even willing to entertain as a solution and all of the hoops you have to jump through.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And in the end, it doesn't even move the needle.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like that that's the frustrating thing.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm so glad that you were you never became one of the advisors, which I've told you before.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you would have been so frustrated dealing with that situation.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, like uh you know, one we were on uh recently, you know, where they're gonna spend 48 million dollars abating agriculture pollution.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and I go in and say, well, you know, why don't we um you know why don't we start a massive composting program?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: We can stop the we can stop the forest fires by chipping the trees and we can eliminate fertilizer expenses from Putin and uh and and uh Iran or whatever, you know, and and uh and we can grow earthworms and build, you know, and have tons of um of projects for people that want to work outside and and and I mean instead it's well I think we ought to change the three prepositions in sentence three of paragraph four.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really, it it it took an hour and a half.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it just devolves into that.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I I just you know, I I just can't stand it.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so let me as as we've you know as we've um kind of if you let me rant a little bit about the I I was glad I was there.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was good to see people that that that I love for their heart for heart for for truth and for uh righteousness, frankly.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, very um the I did have a new thought yesterday after listening to all the different, I mean there were whatever, 25, 30 speakers that each had three minutes.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and the new thought for me that I wanted to run by you is do I have a right to not be poisoned?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I I totally get that glyphosate is a is a poison.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it it is a poison.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's used ubiquitously on lawns, parks, uh it's in the water supply.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's in what you might know the number, it's in like 87% of Americans' urine now.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's in it's in baby placentas, um, uh uh amnios uh amniotic sacs.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's just it's everywhere.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and um and it it it does I had never really thought of it in those terms.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do I have a right not to be poisoned?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as libertarians, we say your freedom ends at my nose.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you can you can punch all you want to, but when your punch hits my nose, then we got a problem.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and and we we c and we kind of take that into uh almost um I'm gonna set the stage for you, see, and then I'm gonna let you reef on it a little bit.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we we kind we kind of take that into i into this realm and say, yeah, it's okay if you use chemicals.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't want a bunch of government regulations against chemicals.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Just go ahead.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: But but it's hard to keep them at home.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to keep them within, you know, we say, hey, you want to put it on your property?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Fine.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is these things don't stay on your property.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And they they come over to mind, like, you know, genetically modified organisms and things.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so it it was a as I was sitting there not screaming and trying to um dope, trying to, you know, philosophically think through some of the big things.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is a bit of a a bit of a new thought for me was do I have a right?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if I have a right not to be poisoned, what what's the remedy?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what where do you go from here?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad to let you uh you've had a little time to think about it now.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm ready to listen to your your uh thoughts.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've had two minutes.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, let's talk through this.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you're quick on you're quick on your feet.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're quick on your feet.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, this this is a great question.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fundamental question.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I okay, so so just bear with me as we walk through this.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, as a principled libertarian, I would say that I have the right to not be poisoned because as a libertarian, I believe that you have the right to live your life the way you want you want to live, as long as you are not harming someone else.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And a poison inherently harms.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um part of that is self-ownership, right?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: You own your body, so you have a right to choose um, you know, what goes into your body, and that any like non-consensual physical um interference with your body is a violation of your your private property rights.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so I would say that then in the true sense of like a free market, a poisoning was a health concern, but it's a trespass and an aggression towards somebody, whether it's a direct act or it's a byproduct of like industry activity.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so if they do it without your informed consent, for example, so if there's a toxic substance that a corporate has introduced into the air or the water that somehow you breathe in or gets on your land, they've done so without your informed consent, I would say.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so they've initiated a force.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think though that as a principled libertarian, when you talk about the legal framework there, like what do you actually do about it?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: The focus shifts from a government regulation to a strict liability.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if a party is poisoning you, they're liable for the full extent of the damages.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: So um where I would probably differ from some people is how the right to not be poisoned is protected.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say so.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: You would have to have to prioritize number one, there has to be radical transparency.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for that informed consent to be valid, you have to know exactly what's in the product that you buy or in the environment that you live in.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: So there has to be full disclosure, or there's no true contract.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is partly where we get into the issue with the EPA and the labels and the FDA and their labeling issues with the food, which is the primary job of the FDA, is to take care of the labels and the EPA with the labels of these pesticides.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So they're failing in those categories in terms of radical transparency so that people can make these informed decisions.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: The other is um the private tort laws, right?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of small fines that are paid to government if companies violate um, you know, by poisoning, individuals should have the power to sue for the full value of the harm done to their health and their property.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is this creates the financial incentive for these companies to not poison, and if they do, to clean up um, you know, what they have, what damage they've done.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is also where the United States is failing.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is the crux of what's happening right now.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, at the Supreme Court's level.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then um what I think would need to also happen in order to have full transparency so that we can people can give informed consent is you have to decentralize testing.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Independent labs, consumer advocacy, and more consumer advocacy groups could, in an essence, replace the government agencies, which are in large part corrupt and under regulatory capture.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And these companies can provide more rigorous on uncompromised data on what is actually safe.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: We need uh Cena, Cena, we need we need we need uberized science.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, we need uberized science.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uberized science, yes.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's an I love that term.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, you're just a genius wordsmither.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's exactly what we need because they're not as they're not corruptible like the government, you know.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um I would that's what I would like to see, because the way you do it, listen, let's say um, let's say you and I were like, okay, we agree the government should step in and they should ban glyphosate.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: You and I both know what's gonna happen.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the chemical companies, first of all, they're gonna find loopholes and workarounds, just like how pesticides containing arsenic were banned for small producers and consumers, but there's still large companies using them.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: But most people think, oh, the arsenic-based arsenic-based pesticides are totally banned, they're no longer in use.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just not true.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, number one, there's usually carve outs and exceptions.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, if something is truly banned, you and I both know the companies are going to turn around, they're gonna tweak it a little bit or come up with something else.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just gonna be this continue, continued rat race of just chasing them.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, the a more what I would say, principled libertarian approach using these principles I've laid out or these strategies I've laid out, is that when people, when there is radical transparency and people know what's in the food, what's in the water, what's in the air, it it is then the job of the people.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: They are the final, they have the final say on the marketplace.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, Joel, this is how, as you know, the FDA pillars of our national food laws were originally established, right?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: So what I tend to true back to is the FDA's own documents and their own words upon their founding and and subsequent documents.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: So when people say the government has the responsibility to do this, the government should ban this, the government should ban grass chemicals or whatnot.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you have to actually look at how the system was set up.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned in 1906 when we got the the the federal FDA.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that that FDA was established based on three food laws, three national food laws that were put into place by Dr.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Harvey Wiley.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: He's the one we've talked about on the program that conducted the poison squad.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: And out of his experiments, he created the three pillars.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: The number one is that the companies are responsible for determining if their chemicals are safe.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Number two was the government was responsible for labeling so that to make sure that the label was accurate and transparent.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And number three, the consumer is responsible to be the final judge of which products are on the marketplace.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: That is actually how our system is set up.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: The FDA has actually reinforced that.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I quoted this in my book and Enhance Off My Food, FDA's own document, where they said that the food supply is adulterated because the people are not providing the necessary incentive to the companies to make sure the food is safe because they are not demanding safety.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: So this is actually how the system is set up.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: But but then but then you but then you have then you have the the kind of the the chicken or the egg question.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: If if people are responsible, um how am I gonna say this?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: If if people are the ultimate arbiter, then they have to feel like they have to feel like they are truly responsible.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is as soon as the government became involved with labeling and and as soon as the government became this is what we call the the technocracy, as soon as the technocracy became responsible or became the arbiter, um it it didn't matter that they said the people are the final arbiter, because the people the first two the first two made the the third pillar um what uh uh not obsolete, but it but it it it undermined.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you you you either you either have you either have personal responsibility or you have a surrogate responsibility.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to take full responsibility when you have a surrogate taking responsibility.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean just Phil, I'm just being as a practical matter, as a practical matter, I can't I can't feel responsible for something that I have given over to a surrogate.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean uh uh that's that's what that's why we delegate, right?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, every business, every organization has a hierarchy of of decision-making delegation because we can't all make all the decisions.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and so and so the fact that that the establishment or or the the interventive the day the populace decided we want government as interventive arbiter that day they took a second seat to the responsibility.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's absolutely right.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I argue in my book that that was the day that the veil of unearned trust fell down over the eyes of Americans.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: And every generation we've passed that veil down like a family heirloom, unaware of our role.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the issue, though.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, right just before, okay, what we're describing here is that point in time that forever changed our food supply and the health of Americans, and that was the American people finally handing over the responsibility of the safety of their food to a federal government, yeah, and it didn't come easy, but Americans did not want to do that.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: That is why it took a progressive president, it took people lying, it took Upton Sinclair's book that was a lie, in order to get the American people to be so afraid of food that they were willing to hand over that freedom to the federal government.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to stress that because we none of us were alive at that time, and we've all lived in a period where we have an FDA, a USDA, an EPA.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: So this is our norm.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: So back then, though, it didn't come easy.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: The people knew they did not want a centralized authority to have that much control over their food.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: They were still active participants, they still had boots on the ground at that time, right?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: The food was adulterated at that time, too.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: You had honey that could be adulterated with glucose, you know, the formaldehyde, borax were being used as preservatives.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like there was no adulteration.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: There was adulteration, but the American people at that time under Understood what it meant to hand over that freedom to the federal government.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so it basically was pried out of the hands by lying to them and making them so afraid.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, media was complicit in this.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Government's comp government was complicit, the media was complicit by plastering all over newspapers that the that the safety and that the safety of the food supply was guaranteed.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: They literally would say that it's guaranteed.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the problem is that was the turning point.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: That was the pivotal moment.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I know of no generation since, in my recollection, where the vast majority of the Americans said, Well, wait a minute, it's actually our job to decide at the end of the day what's on the market.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we have forgotten that, like to your point.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's one of the reasons why I do what I do now, like with our podcasts and with with our books and talks, is to remind people that you are not a victim in this system.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: That you you have the most power of all three of those food pillars that I just mentioned, that are still our food pillars today, our national pillars of our food laws.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: The consumer is the most powerful one because you had the power to move the market.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what that label says at the end of the day, like if we can get transparency on it or not, if the product isn't even on the market because people won't buy it.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what you have to do is it it is our right to not consume poisons, but at the same time, we don't want to hand over more power and fall into this victim space over you know, to a federal bureaucracy that has shown for over a hundred years that it can't fix the problem and it doesn't want to fix the problem.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not their job to actually fix it for us.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really gonna have to be us reaching some tipping point to get enough people to not buy it.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: But what's ha what's happened now in the political climate, the federal government has grown so powerful, so big, and so so fraternal with these global um corporations that when the people do fight back you know and and express their outrage uh y you know, you've got like yesterday, or like you know, at the rally, um the power of the opposition is just uh almost uh I mean it's it's um it's almost insurmountable.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: It it it's it it's way, way bigger than you.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one one speaker, I heard one speaker say um say that uh we that we should just if if nobody bought this stuff, uh we wouldn't have it.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: But and and they're exactly right.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that that's exactly uh correct.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: But when you see the the billions of lobby money, K Street, now a national glyphosate and national security issue, um, you know, billions, 12 billion just lately, uh bailout of the soybean farmers, um uh you know, you just you just start seeing it's such a it's it's not like it's in its infancy, you know.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very, very I mean this is the game.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is the game.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and to change the game at this point is uh is really tough.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the the do I have a right not to be poisoned?
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh I mean certainly no nobody has to buy nobody has to buy stuff, uh food with this in it.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is for sure.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I'm I'm I'm thinking of I'm thinking of water and and air and uh land out here that that this that this you use the word trespasses, that this trespasses into.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um to me that puts it into a whole new ball game than my my right not to buy glyphosate infested beef, for example.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, a couple things.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's other things too that are poisons, like the forever chemicals, for example, or heavy metals that they're using when they're dumping this biosludge on conventional crops, or you know, heavy metals that are in um weather modification.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's poisons all around, you know.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're gonna take that stance, then you can't elevate one poison above all others, like like because you you're upset that Trump has elevated glyphosate specifically um to the level of national defense.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, two wrongs don't make a right.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: You can't then elevate glyphosate and it to a oh, this one thing should be banned because there's lots of toxic chemicals out there, you know.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the other is so none of it's instantaneous, right?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how long has glyphosate been around?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's taken this long to become this toxic to, you know, there I'm and I agree with you.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to consume glyphosate at all.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want my kids consuming it.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want wildlife exposed to it, nothing.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: But it's taken decades to get to this point.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and now we're at this point where people are realizing we have a lot of data, for example, showing the harm of glyphosate.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: So of course, people naturally want it to be taken care of, cleaned up right away.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you can say that about all of these toxic chemicals, right?
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: But the second part is it's not gonna be you can't, it's not a pill for every ill solution.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just, you know, wave this magic wand and it is just gone instantaneously.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna have to be patient and use a solution that actually works.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Banning it is not going to work.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're just gonna come up with something else.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and what what else is not gonna work is uh is well, we just need we just need um honesty in the federal agencies.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that that's that's that's the one that makes my head explode.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think we've ever had that.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, like that's that's just from the the literal FDA was born out of lies and fear.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't expect it to now be some righteous agency through and through, you know.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: The they're all the same.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so you said about 200 people showed up to that rally, right?
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's not enough people.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, but that this is not, they have not reached the point where glyphosate is a big enough issue to be a midterm election problem, any kind of election, you know, issue.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, we they will keep keep getting swept under the rug because I'm sorry, but they don't have enough people yet to care for they don't have enough people yet for a president to care enough to make it an election issue.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's so they're just not there yet.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's actually uh um, you know, talk on the street that that I heard there that that essentially said that um that Maha, I mean let's just do the whole big thing, that Maha is not a voting block big enough to make any difference.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: There was just an article, I think it was in the New York Times talking of they were interviewing different Maha moms, and some of them are front runners in the movement, and they're talking about how you know they may not even go to the polls.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're so disenchanted with Trump, and you know, they some of them understand Kennedy's position that he's in, but they're they feel betrayed and they feel like their vote vote doesn't matter anymore.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they've got a real issue here.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they had momentum there, their big strongest supporters are feeling like they got used in some ways, right?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, and this this is the issue when you align yourself, you know, with with an individual or or or a cause.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is the problem when you take a label, isn't it?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's the problem when you take a label.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, yeah.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was amazing to me yesterday standing there watching um you know Congressman Thomas Massey, who I mean, if anybody ever got uh Ron Paul's mantle, it's gotta be Thomas Massey.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I call Thomas uh Ron Paul was the Elijah and Massey was the is the is the Elisha.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he got the mantle.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: But here he was, and here Corey Booker.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: Corey Booker.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what what place would those two be, you know, be standing arm in arm on on a thing?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it just it it's just uh it's crazy uh what this is, but but for the for the most part, for the most part, um I think I guess for me the bottom line was for the most part people were still asking for a government solution.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and and and and it's not a government solution.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's we the people, I agree with that, um have to step up, step into into the place of our um of our responsibility and our obligations and and and our and frankly our participation.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, and so you know, right uh this year, uh Wall Street Journal says McDonald's is planning to build 4,000 uh restaurants worldwide.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: McDonald's.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: We need 4,000 more of them.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, uh I mean that this is what we're talking about, seeing.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're we're we're still just a we're we're uh we're tiny, you know.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so don't get frustrated.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just keep, you know, just one person at a time, just keep, you know, educating them, bringing them along, and and um and we'll see where it goes.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: But but but um you know I I I I remember I'll I'll share a very uh personal story with you.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Back, I mean, dad was dad was alive, so we're back into the early 80s here, and um our neighbor up upriver from us um herbicided his you know, you know, the the river.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've got a we've got a creek.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we call it a river, it's middle river, but um if you're from Mississippi, it's a it's a creek.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so you know we've got this this little, you know, it's uh whatever, you know, fifth, fifteen feet wide.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can't jump across it.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little longer.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at least I can't jump across it.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe somebody else can.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh this this uh river that runs down through.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, you know, there's on both sides, there's a you know, meadows, bottom land that goes along.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this neighbor um herbicided his his the whole meadow right up to the right up to the creek uh to plant corn.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we periodically generally have uh one to two floods a year, you know, that that come the river floods, you've got snow melt, you got some you know, hurricane or something, and you get this flood and it it comes through there.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the water will get, I mean, you know, we we get marooned then.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we can't go out the lane, the water's you know, four or five feet deep, and we're stuck.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, when that happens, it's extremely erosive.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: Anything that is weak sod, you know, gets ripped up.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, of course, fences go down, logs come through, and it's it's a mess.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, so um dad went up to this neighbor and he um he just said, you know, I I I wish you wouldn't do that because it's gonna kill the sod.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: If we have a flood, it's gonna wash the all the soil away.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and if it washes your soil away, our fence line is gonna be the next, you know, the next uh place to go, and then it's gonna take ours as it washes yours down because water tends to find its level.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um and the neighbor, of course, he did not take that very well.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: He he said, if you ever step foot on my land again, I'll kill you.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so this was not a very, you know, neighbor friendly thing.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but but but the but it it it was it was a preemptive it was a preemptive um meeting to say please don't do that up here because your your fist is gonna hit my face.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it's it's not okay to do something on your property that is inevitably going to destroy mine.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: And but but that's that's what that's what we've come to with with our chemicals, our pesticides, um, and where we are.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: And when I when I just look at the whole culture, at the things and how difficult this has become.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it used to be the the worst thing you could do to your your neighbor's property was, you know, uh whatever, cut a tree, you know, that fell across the line, or or um, you know, uh dump, you know, uh your manure spreader, uh flung some poop, you know, across the fence or something like that.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: But what we're talking about, we're talking about major aquifer contamination, major crop contamination, um, that that doesn't that doesn't respect property lines.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it has it has made it makes a much more um difficult difficult that's not a good enough word, but it it it makes sorting out this whole um leave me alone idea, it it makes it much more uh difficult and confusing.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would I absolutely agree.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really difficult because there's toxins coming from all different places and lots of different types of toxins, and some people don't even know about.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, like for example, um, we don't even when we first moved to North Georgia, we would go to watering holes with um our homeschool group in the summer, like all over the place, uh, you know, over by waterfalls, and it was just it was so fun.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized one of the days, I was like, you know what?
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I saw a surfactant in the water.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, that's not right, you know.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: And my son and I walked up the the creek and we traced it back to a chemical factory that was dumping directly into the waterway.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we started searching through all the like other waters that we go into, and like you, and it's gotten worse each year, like and you can smell things, and so it's to the point where the water, most of the water is so toxic that I my children and I have actually chosen not to go in it.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: So now we don't even get to enjoy these natural watering holes with our friends because it's so toxic.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, what do you do?
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why what well so but so so here here's here's the issue.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: The issue is that when when the commons was developed and the sheriff and the magistrate, the old you know, British common law system was if you found that, you could sue that company for redress for polluting the waterway.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: That was the commons.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's called common law.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was established for the to protect the commons so the nobility and royalty didn't encroach on the commons of the peasants, eliminating the ability of the peasants to to run a milk cow or have a garden or something on the commons.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the sheriff came in, because the sheriff it started with a shire.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: The sheriff was the uh the the policeman on the shire uh to make sure that there was not encroachment from royalty onto peasant commons.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: And but what we've done now is what do people do when they encounter what you just encountered?
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: They don't they don't go to the magistrate and swear out a common law infraction like they used to.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, you call the EPA and say, I want to report something.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Then it gets all wound up into the whole uh technocracy mumbo jumbo of of of uh you know and cheese and wine dinners and everything before everything gets done.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: This this is the disempowerment of the citizenry that that this this notion government save me has created.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we actually moved from Florida to Virginia because of the red tide.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was making me really sick and causing miscarriages.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I did a deep dive into it and was able to figure out what's I documented in the research that one of the reasons why the red tide is so pervasive now and is making so many animals and marine life and people sick is because of the fertilizer and pesticide runoffs that are coming down into the Gulf.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's another example of there's another huge toxic exposure there, toxic load that's affecting you know animals and marine life and us.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, what are you gonna do about it?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we were like, well, we're gonna move.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we literally moved to a different area.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: And because of all of these experiences, and this is how our system is right now.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: When we found land, it was critical for me that there was water on our land and that the water, the spring originated on our land.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was a non-negotiable for me.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we've learned how to try to navigate through the system, but it is it's very daunting and it's very frustrating that that this is the system that we have today.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, it the government has become so large and so complex and convoluted that I'm not sure if if I'm trying to racking my brain right now.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can think of it, to think of any one thing that the government could actually fix, like truly fix it, you know, like without having some kind of loophole or backdoor deal exception made to it, or you know, I I this might be a uh this might be a good challenge for our listeners.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us what is something that the government can absolutely fix without having to do that.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or even or even, yeah, I mean, we're we're out of time.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe we should just uh drop the question on our listeners and say, um, have you ever seen anything the government actually fix?
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, actually fix.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um not not not develop a program, you know.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about just throwing money at we're talking about something that the government has actually fixed.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I think you'd have to look.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there might be a few things, but uh, but you'd have to look real hard.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and you're exactly right.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: The the government is good at um obfuscating and stealing and and creating um you know fights.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and so it's a so many people are you know upset, certainly at me and probably you too, for for not wanting government solutions because in uh you know the the general you know environmental foodie kind of movement has been a fairly you know progressive liberal um government solution kind of mentality.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I think I think that when I when I saw uh Massey and Booker there together, um that shows how um whatever how how crazy this whole thing has become.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's pretty amazing.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, mass massey is not loved by the Republicans.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I get that.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, there there was no there, I mean, Massey would not be considered a mainstream Republican.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Trump's trying to uh get rid of him.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and so uh so that it would have been different if there were truly a you know um you know Mike Johnson or somebody, you know, a more mainstream uh Republican had been there.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: But uh interesting, interesting rally, interesting times, and um I appreciate you thinking through this with me.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: These are these are um big issues, and we don't mind diving into them on Beyond Labels.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so your question of the week is um have you s what have you seen the government really fix?
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh give us a give us a couple of success stories.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us on another episode of Beyond Labels, and we'll look forward to visiting with you again next week.