Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 758: A Health Check on Our Hunting Culture with Tony Peterson and Dan Johnson

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Ep. 758: A Health Check on Our Hunting Culture with Tony Peterson and Dan Johnson · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods presented by first Light, creating proven
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by my good buddies Dan Johnson
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: and Tony Peterson to discuss the current and future status
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: of our hunting culture. All right, welcome back to the
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: and their Camo for Conservation Initiative. And today we're kicking
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: off a new series this month of March. We're going
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: to be exploring the culture of hunting, and by that
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I mean all of the brought and murky issues related
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: to who we are, how we do what we do,
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: why we do what we do, and all of those
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: things related to hunting here in America. How we represent ourselves,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: how we conduct ourselves, the things we do, the way
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: we talk about what we're doing, all of that. It's
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: one of those topics that is tough to talk about, honestly,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: and that's why I thought we should have a whole
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: month dedicated to it. Speaking with different people with different
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: perspectives about where we are today as a hunting community
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: and where we're headed in the future. Is that a
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: good place, is that a concerning place? And what kind
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: of influence can we as individuals have on what that
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: future looks like. That's the game plan, That's the discussion
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: we are going to be having. We're going to be
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: talking about everything from fairchase ethics, to technology, to access
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: and hunter numbers and media, social media, you name it.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: We're going to get into it. We're going to press
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: all of the controversial buttons and hopefully come out of
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: this thing with a few new ideas, maybe a couple
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: different ways of looking at things, and my greatest hope
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: is it will help us as a community, point us
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: towards a better future for this thing that we love
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: so much. So, without all said, with that kind of
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: runway ahead of us, today's episode is going to start light.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: We are going to dive into this topic with my
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: two buddies, Dan Johnson and Tony Peterson. You know him well,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: you've heard them on the podcast many times in the past,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: and I thought, man, these are the guys that I
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: have kind of rambled about these topics the most with
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: in the past over the last ten to fifteen years.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: So why don't we have a regroup, Why don't we
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: get this threesome back together and kind of check back in?
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: You know, are the same ways that Dan and I
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: felt ten years ago? You know? Do we still feel
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: that way today? Do Tony and I feel the same
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: now as we did five years ago when we first
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: started touching on some of these things? What do we
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: think about the future? Each one of us has a
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: different perspective, We come from a different background, We hunt
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: within a different context of situations and locations, different sets
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: of values maybe in some cases, So the three of
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: us wanted to come together and just kind of lay
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: a groundwork for what we think about some of these topics,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: some of the challenges that we have with them, some
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: of the ways that we're trying to wrestle with them,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: and use this as kind of a launching off point
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: for the rest of the month. And I think that's
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: what we achieved. It's a fun one. There's definitely some
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: classic everything. I guess if you follow the podcast in
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: the past, you probably know what to expect. If not,
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: you are in for hopefully in engaging conversation on these
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: topics with a little bit of weirdness thrown into so
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: you warn and ready for that as well. So without
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: all said, I think we should get onto the conversation
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: with Tony, Dan and I and this kicking off point,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: this starting point for our discussion around the culture of hunting.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: All right with me here for another episode of the podcast.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: I've got my two right hand mans, Dan Johnson and
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Tony Peterson. Thank you guys for joining me for this one.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, buddy, appreciate it. Mark.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Last time the three of us were together was the
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Roast of Mark Kenyon and I was at the Vortex
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: HQ back in last September and just talking to the
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: guys there, and several of them brought up the fact
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: that that was one of the funniest episodes I've ever
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: listened to, that they enjoyed it so much. They actually
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: listened to certain bits where you guys were giving me
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: hell multiple times. So I'm gonna try to keep us
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: from having around two of that.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: But uh, I don't even remember that episode.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: You might have been black.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: What's in that coffee, Tony? Yes, seriously in my frozen
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: coffee mug? Yep, Well, Mark I'll tell you what. First off,
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: I really appreciate this, and I will try real hard
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: on my end not to derail this one like we
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: did last time. I'll take this one just to hear
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: more serious, just for you, Bud.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: Hey, Mark, Mark, do you get the impression the way
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: Dan's talking and presenting himself right now that he got
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: into some anabolic steroids this weekend.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: He's coming off a big weekend. Yeah, I could see that.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: Did you have a cage fight this weekend?
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: Or what?
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: Buddy? What am I? Am? I being aggressive right now?
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: It just feels like you're yelling at us. Maybe I'm
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: sensitive because I live with multiple women, but fel that's right.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: It feels like you're coming in hot buddy.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. I mean I have
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: two of my best friends right here. Why would I
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: want to do anything to hurt number one their feelings
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: or physical harm. Hey, I'll take a step back if
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: you think so.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I did see I did see on social Uh, Dan,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: your daughter is whooping on some other girls in wrestling.
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: It seems like, huh, yeah, she's uh, she's kind of
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: turned into a savage this uh, this year, and it
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: makes me very happy, especially when she starts to get
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: to the age where she can start dating and I
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: know that she can defend herself against you know, maybe
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: some boys with some you know, feely fingers, if that
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: makes sense.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we get what you're saying.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: You didn't have to go in to detail, but yeah, yeah,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I feel like you might be
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: living vicariously through her now, like you're watching her wrestle
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: and then you got a royd like in the bathroom
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: behind just to get ready for it.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm ripping sinks out of the wall and stuff
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: like that.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Anyway, Dan, that's a good lead into our conversation.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: Dan, I have a question for you, because Mark, you're
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: not at this stage yet. When she competes, or your
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: kids compete and they don't do very well or they
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: have a bad day, does it like ruin your day?
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: Truthfully, it only ruins my day because their day is ruined. Yeah,
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: and so my daughter, I'll just use it because it's
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: fresh from this weekend. She wanted to place. There was
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: seventeen girls in her bracket she wanted to place this year.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: That means eighth or higher, and three of the four
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: girls that placed she didn't place. She won her first match,
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: lost her next. Two of the girls that placed eighth
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: or higher this year, this year, she's already beat four
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: of them, and so she didn't place. She was devastated,
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: And I was devastated, not at her performance, but because
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: she was devastating.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: Same with my boys, when you know, they strike out,
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: or they have a bad game where they drop a
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: pop fly or something like that, or my oldest boy
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: wrestles too, when they have a bad day, I have
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: a bad day, not because of the expectations, but because
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: just how they feel.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, how about if they do something really embarrassing, like
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: a big mistake.
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: Like when you mean a big mistake, you mean like
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: a big mistake during yes sporting event.
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: So or like, let me just frame this up. This
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: It didn't happen this year, which was wonderful, but the
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: last two years, my one, my lunatic daughter has made
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: a basket in the wrong basket two years in a row.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: And she actually shakes it off, but I mean it's
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: so freaking embarrassing and you're like and you can see
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: it coming, you know, like just like, oh, my God,
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited to get the ball right here, and
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: I have no defenders around me because everybody else is
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: on the other end of the court. You're like, don't shoot,
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: and of course, you know, they make like one out
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: of every twenty five shots they take, and of course
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: they always make that one.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially embarrassing now the girls are sixteen. You think
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: that by now they've got to figure it out.
• 9:01
  Speaker 6: Now that they're driving themselves to the court. Hey, okay, Mark,
• 9:07
  Speaker 6: you got two boys.
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: Okay, And so you know, Tony, you whether you know
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: or you don't know, boys are way different than girls.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: Like it's emotional, right, But you were talking about, you know,
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: do you ever get embarrassed about your children? And my
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: youngest boy's watching Paul Patrol the other day and he's laughing.
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: He's laughing, he's laughing. I hear him cough real loud,
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: and then I hear him say, oh boy.
• 9:34
  Speaker 6: Then there's silence, and he walks up to me and goes, dad,
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: I pooped my pants.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: It was a really good episode.
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: And I'm just like, what, buddy, Yeah, dad, uh, I
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: pooped my pants. I'm like just a little bit. He goes, no,
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: it's all in there. That's when I get embarrassed. Yeah,
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: even though there's no one to see it. I'm just like, oh, dude,
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: you know you're old enough where you know you shouldn't
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: poop yourself.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: But imagine how he's going to feel when he finds
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: out that you talked about that on a podcast thousands
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: of people and he's just this poor little guy who
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: got too into his cartoon.
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, dude, dude, he loves the Paul Patrol.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: When my daughters were like five, the flu was just
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: raging through our house and I remember just walking down
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: my hallway and one of my daughters was coming the
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: other way down the hallway, and she just stopped and
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: she just looked at me, and I could just see
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: it on her face. I was like, you just shut
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: your pants in.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: She's like, yep, you just watch it.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: So then do you do? You have to do that
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: thing though, Like we're lots of times a kid does
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: something dumb or makes a mistake or whatever, and then
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: you always try to step in with the parental example like, oh,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: don't worry, buddy, I've done that too. You have plenty
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: of those kinds of stories for your daughter, Tony.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, once every ten years. I'm that's one of
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: my cadence.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: I think you're I think you're covering some things up
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Tony once every ten years.
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: Come on, No, I mean like a good one, like
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: in public or whatever.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so I'm not just.
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: Talking about those when you're working.
• 11:14
  Speaker 6: From home and you're like, oh no, hey, Mark, you
• 11:18
  Speaker 6: better course correct.
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going the wrong way.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Before we go any further down this path, the reason
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I had you on here was not to talk about
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: digestive issues, but to talk about culture and uh yeah,
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: culture and community. You know over well, we've done this
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: podcast for more than ten years now, and both of
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: you have been on a whole lot of these shows
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: with me. We've talked, sometimes like on purpose, about the
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: culture within our hunting community, and sometimes it just happens
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: out of nowhere. But over the years, we've talked a
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: lot about what's going on within this world of people
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: that we, you know, share the woods and waters with.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: We've talked a lot about things related to politics that
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: are impacting hunting. We've talked about things related to media.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: We've talked about things related to technology. We've talked there's
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: all these different topics that kind of swirl around the
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: culture of this thing we do and love, and so
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: this month my thought was to talk to a handful
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: of different people about where we stand now. You know,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty four seems like there's a lot of stuff
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: in the water. There's a lot of I don't want
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: to say drama, but there's a lot of things going
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: on these days that I think are influencing and will
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: continue to influence what the future of hunting looks like.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: So I thought, before we dig into this deep, we
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: should kind of set the stage with the three of
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: us and kind of see where our heads are at,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: kind of circle back on some things that we've talked
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: about in the past, you know. You know, Gosh, I
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: remember early days of the podcast Dan having these conversations
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: with you, raging against hunting media in different things like that.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: So it's like, where do we Let's talk about some
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: of these things and how our perspective has made be
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: changed in the years, or maybe how it's hardened and
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: stayed the same, how things maybe look different to us
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: now that we're more on the inside at this in
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: the media side of things. I mean, we've been in
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: the hunting media side now fifteen to twenty five years
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: or so between the three of us, we've all been
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: hunting most of our lives. So for me that's been
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: like thirty six years, for Tony sixty some, and we've
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: all kind of had these these wide ranging experiences. So
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: that's that's where my head's at. That's what I want
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: to get at here.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm only seven years older than you, Right.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: It feels like an eternity. Man, it feels like.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: I'm a lot more mature and wise. Right.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: That's not necessarily where I was thinking, but hey, this
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: is where I want to This is where I want
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: to start. I kind of want to think about this
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: like a like a health check, annual physical on the
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: hunting community, like just checking the vital signs, checking the status,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: checking where things stand now. So if you were to
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: step back and look at the culture of our hunting
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: community as a whole, and you had to rate the
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: health like if you were a doctor or some kind
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: of you're gonna say, man on a a mixing metaphors here,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: because I'm going to say like an F to a scale.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: So maybe this should be more of like a teacher analogy.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: But whatever, what I'm trying to get at here is
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: if Tony, you were gonna look at the state of
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: the culture of hunting right now and give a grade
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: level A down to F, what would you write where
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: we are right now and give me like a quick,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: like quick explanation of where your head's at when you
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: come up with that grade.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: I would probably go C minus or D plus right now.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: And the reason I would say that is because, and
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: we can talk about this later, but if you if
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: you look at what's happening out there as far as
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: the hunting population, we're complaining like crazy right now about
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: each other, you know, non residents coming in, residents leasing up, whatever,
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: and we are we are actually taking away real opportunities
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: from our fellow hunters right now. So we have this
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: boogeyman going on that we've always had of the anti hunter,
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: you know, and they're going to take away your lyon
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: hunting or your bear hunting or whatever. You know. We
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: kind of know the targets thereafter. But if you look
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: at what's happening in Colorado right now and going to
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: be happening next year, and there's a bill that just
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: came up in Oklahoma, I don't know if it'll pass
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: or not. But we're sitting here bitching and bitch and
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: bitch about our hunting and our solution is to take
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: something away from somebody. And we are like, we have
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: this weird little kind of cancel culture thing going on
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: in our ranks where we don't we're never going to
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: talk about the hunters taking away our hunting rights, even
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: though that's exactly what we're doing to each other. And
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: we're really caught up in that right now, and that
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: worries me a lot.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: All right, I want to dive into more of that,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: but let's get to you, Dan. What's your answer? What's
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: your take?
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: So I read that email, and I think the reason
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: that there's so much I don't necessarily I'm going to
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: use the word division, but I don't know if that's
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: the right word, because I feel like there is no
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: hunting one hunting culture. I think there's multiple hunting cultures.
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: I think that I think that if you're a landowner,
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: or you are a or you have money, your grade
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: is going to be much higher than someone who is
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: a public land hunter, who's blue collar and doesn't have
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: the the budget for hunting like others do, and then
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: that that is much lower right, and so I can
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: talk on what I know. You know, if you have
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: a ton of money, if you own ground to where
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: you're able to manage high quality you know, deer and
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: put money into it, there's no reason for you to
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: be upset at things. But if you're struggling to find access,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: if you're struggling to find one or two acres in
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: public that you know other guys are are coming in
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: on all the time, that's just the reality of public
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: land hunting. But I think there's two there's two different
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: cultures that are fighting against each other, and nobody's right
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: and nobody's really wrong because both are hurting and both
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: are helping the you know, in a way, there's positives
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: and negatives on both both cultures.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: So you didn't give me a grade, though, I mean.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: It's hard, Like I can't say if I'm going to
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: average them out, I'll say it's it's a it's like
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: a sea or something like that, right, because things that
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: I worry about, like I am honestly worried that unless
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: I don't buy land, my kids are not going to
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: have a place to hunt in Iowa unless it's on public,
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: which I beat this horse to death several states in
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: the on the east right, not every state, but Iowa Kansas,
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: that's two of them that are that are way like
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: they have hardly any public land. And as there's this
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: displacement from private to public, public becomes overrun, people have
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: to change their scale of what kind of deer they're
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: going to shoot. Thus, you know, like I mean, it's
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: just this snowball effect. So I would say that it's
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: a sea. But then there's also in that in that grade,
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: it's like an average, right, the people who can have
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: the land, have the access, have the money, they're they
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: don't care because they're they're they're happy, you know, they
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: have an A. But then the other people d minus
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: you know, like then it averages out. So that's really
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: all I'm trying to get at.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I follow you. I was gonna give us
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: a C as well, and I was kind of looking
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: at it a little bit differently differently than you, Dan,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: But but I gave us a C because I see
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: some things that are really encouraging and I see some
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: things that are really discouraging. So I see like some
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: A level stuff that I'm happy about the direction we're going,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: and I'm seeing some like f level stuff that I'm
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: like concerned about the direction we're going, and so that
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: kind of puts me in the middle and that I
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: feel like we are approaching these like in this inflection
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: point a little bit for hunting where we've heard about
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: it for years and years, but we're just approaching this
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: point where we've got the demographic shift happening that has
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: been forewarned about for years. Right, We're approaching that window
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: of time when the baby boomers are gonna leave the
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: hunting population, and so we're going to have that decline,
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: dramatic decline that everyone's talked about coming, that's gonna happen,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: and so we're going to have fewer hunters than ever before,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: at the same time that we have the risk of
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: these anti hunting things that you talked about, Tony that
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: are continuing to pick up steam. So we have fewer
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: people representing us while there are more threats from the outside,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: while at the same time, any negative, bad apple kind
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: of stuff that we have within the community can more
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: easily get out there into the world than ever before.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: As we talked about this before, right, the social media risk,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: which then could inflame the non hunting anti hunting risk.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: So those things worry me, while at the same time,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: like I see things that I'm excited about when you
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: see like the rise in you know, people, new folks
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: coming into the hunting world from the outside, Folks realizing that, like, man,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: this hunting things pretty darn't cool. There's this great way
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: to get food, there's this great way to connect with
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: the natural world. You're seeing, you know, folks like Rogan,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: folks like that who are connecting and bringing in new people.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: So we're getting these new niche sub communities within the
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: hunting world that I think are good and exciting to see.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: I you know, selfishly feel like they're not selfishly. But
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I think like over the last ten years, there's been
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: a growing wave of hunting being presented in different ways
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: beyond just like shoot a big giant deer. We're having
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: more people talk about these like deeper ways of looking
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: hunting that I think appeal also to these new people,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: and that's a good thing. I think. The access thing, though,
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: is a worry, Like you said, Dan, on the flip side, though,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: like there has been some wins on the public land side,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: like people are realizing how valuable public lands are and
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: so I think that's something where maybe twenty years ago
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of folks took it for granted. I don't
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: think people take it for granted now. I think there's
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: more of like a there's an army of public land
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: defenders now that will help us keep the opportunities we
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: have at least, so that's encouraging. So yeah, I'm kind
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: of right in the middle, and it just feels like, man,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: it's like it's like you're walking a really thin ridge line.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Is how I feel about where we are in the
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: hunting world.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Right now.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: We're on a thin ridge and if we take a
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: misstep off to the left or right, we could be
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: in a world of hurt. But right now, when we're
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: on that ridge line, it's not too bad. Like we're
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: in a beautiful place. But man, there's risks on either side,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: which I guess is why I thought these kinds of
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: conversations are worth having, because I've always thought, man, just
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: just keeping this kind of top of mind and looking
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: at our culture not as something that somebody else is
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: doing that we can point a finger at and say
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: all these guys suck. It's more so like we own
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: the culture like we are, we should take ownership in it. Right,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: So if there's something we're concerned about, we should What
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: can we do right? What can I as an individual do?
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: What can me and my hunting buddies do as a group,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: you know, how can we point in a direction that
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: we think is more positive? So that I think is
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: is why. That's the why for all of this. I
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: want to dive into a couple of things you guys
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: brought up. One of the big ones Dan you talked
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: about is access and like the implications of access on
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: the future of hunting and who can hunt, who can't hunt,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: the everything that goes in this. That's the divisions. Tony,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: you talked about divisions. Well, here's one of those big divisions,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: which is like the private land crowd versus a public
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: land crowd. There's a lot I don't know. If I
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: don't know, there might be a lot of animosity. Maybe
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: there's a little bit of animosity, but it just gets
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: amplified by social media or whatever. But there's some level
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: of animosity between the landholders who control land and can,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: like you said, Dan, have got it made. And then
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: there's everybody else who feels like we're getting priced out
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: of the game. Can't get access to it, decent stuff anymore,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: et cetera. So with that you have a flip side,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: which is on the public land side, you've got a
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: limited amount of land. But we're also trying to recruit
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: new hunters, and so there's complaints about too many hunters
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: now in public land. So that's like a whole lot
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: of different things all roiled up into one general topic
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: of issues. Tony, what do you make of this? You
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: spent a lot of time writing about it, talking about
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: it public versus private landowners versus di wires. How do
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: you think we can move forward? Word or how should
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: we best move forward when it comes to like bridging
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: that divide in some kind of way, not necessarily on
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: like the hunting success side, but on the like the
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: culture these groups of people and trying to somehow work
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: collectively to keep hunting in a positive place.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: I think I think the biggest mistake that we keep
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: making is we cannot help ourselves but slide into like
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: this trophy hunting mentality all the time. And so when
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: you look at the messaging and it comes from us,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: it comes from everybody in the industry, just about it
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: looks like like how Dan said, if you're a private
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: land owner and you've got those resources guarded, everything's rosy
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: for you, right well, like on paper maybe, but that
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: guy still gets pissed at the neighbors, shoot the little
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: bucks or whatever, like there's you know, there's still reasons
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: to be mad. And then you have this other side
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: where people are on public or I would argue you
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: could lump in, you know, permission based hunting too now,
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: just because generally if you're getting if somebody's letting you
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: on a property, you're probably not in there alone. So
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: it's sort of more of a pressured versus controlled division really.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: But what we just can't help but do is focus
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: so much on the big buck thing that we make
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: it look like that's it. Like from the outside looking in,
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: it's like that's the goal. And if the reason that
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: people have such a bad attitude about public land isn't
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: because they've been out there working their asses off and
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: finding deer, it's because they look at it and go,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: I'm never going to kill a big one. You're never
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: going to kill that one fifty there, right, So it's
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: like why go? And so I think I think our
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: messaging has been wrong, Like I think we got to
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: look at this and go, we're pretty damn lucky to
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: get to hunt anything, and we're pretty lucky to have
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: places to go do that. So yeah, like Dan mentioned,
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: you know, you might have to adjust your standards, right,
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: and people go, I don't want to go do that,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, if you go scout and work
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: this out on public land and shoot a little one
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: or shoot a dough or something like, if you've never
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: done that, probably give it a shot first before you're
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: like it's not worth it, because when you go through
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: like I've gone through the big buck phase, chase one bucks,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: all that stuff, and you kind of get to a
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: point where you realize, like, it's cool, but it's not
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: as important as we presented a lot of times and
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: every one of us. If suddenly, you know, I would
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: pass the law in Michigan passed a law and they
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: said you can't shoot anything over one hundred and twenty inches,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: we'd be hunting one hundred and seventeen inch bucks, you
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: know what I mean. Or if they were like there's
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: a month where you can't hunt bucks, we'd go hunt doughs.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: Like you'd still go for the experience of being out
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: there it would change a lot of how you approach it.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: But I think I think we've made a big mistake
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: and we fell into this in like two thousand and eight,
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: two thousand and nine, when the when the Power Couple
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: Sportsman channel thing was really on the rise and then
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: it broke and all of a sudden, Steve Varnella and
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: Randy come in. We do this to ourselves, but I
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: think we have to be aware of it and just
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: go like, hey, the mature buck thing's awesome, it's fun.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: It's cool to see them coming through the woods and
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: focus on them. But it's not like that's not the
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: sole reason for anyone to do this, And we have
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: to be careful about our messaging.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: So what does that come down to though? Is that
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: is that on the media or is that on individual hunters? Like, like,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: who has the who has the power to change this?
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: If we think it's a thing that needs to be changed,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: where where does that change come from?
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: We do? I mean, I think this stuff filters down.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: I mean before, you know, just think about it this way,
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: before the Druries and the Lakaskis and the Kisskis and
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: these people figured out how to essentially grow giant deer
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: and keep them around. How many people did you hear
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: about just randomly in your life that we're doing that,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Like it right? And so
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there are probably people who had
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: that kind of figured out in the sanctuary thing forever,
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: but it wasn't like a wide scale Like you're not
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: surprised if you if you do immediate or a live
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: event or go to a deer classic, you're not surprised
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: when people talk like that and present that style of hunting. Well,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: that didn't come from the you know, like that didn't
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: come from the general population. That came from people who
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: had to kill big ones on TV and figure out
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: a way to do it. So I think it comes
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: from us.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: I'm going to disagree because not wholly, but just on
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: some parts of that. And I think it's it's situational
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: based off of where you live and where you hunt
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: because back in the day, and I didn't even when
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: I first started hunting when I was twelve or thirteen
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: years old, in Iowa, as far back as I can remember,
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: it's always been big Bucks. It's always been that, hey, dude,
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: Like even before the Lakoski's moved to Iowa, and I
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: had permission on any place that I knocked on doors, right,
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: farmers were telling me don't shoot the small bucks, like,
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: don't shoot, you know, like I would. I can remember
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: the first time ever got a trail camera picture. I
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: went and I got it developed. I showed the farmer.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: I go check this buck out. At the time, it
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: was a big buck.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: For me.
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: It was like a one hundred and twenty five inch
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: eight pointer, and I was like, oh my god, I'm
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: gonna try to shoot this buck. He hops out of
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: his combine. He looks at it, then he goes, don't
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: shoot that buck. Don't shoot that buck. Shoot, you know,
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: put a little bit more time in. There's much bigger
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: deer around here for you to shoot. And so the
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: culture here is different than the culture in Michigan. The
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: culture here is different than the culture in Texas.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: It's it's always like the way I grew up, it's
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: always been about antler size. What's changed, in my opinion,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: is the age. They brought the age class into it
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: to almost justify the sole purpose of shooting big antlers.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: Of course, there's people there, yeah, you know what I mean. Well,
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: and so it's like Oh, dude, I only shoot big deer,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: well you shoot or I only shoot old deer. Well
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: you're the only reason you're shooting old deer is because
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: they grow the biggest antlers, right, And so I don't
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: I don't know whether that was really a disagreement. Well,
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: it's really how I how I was raised in it.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: I know there's been pockets like that for a long time.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: What I mean is like the guys in Pennsylvania when
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: you were twelve years old, they didn't know about Iowa,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like you might have heard
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: or whatever, but it wasn't you know, some dude down
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: in Louisiana wasn't like I'm gonna I'm going up to
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: hunt Iowa for big bucks like that, you know. I mean,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: that's different. But you're right on the you know, we
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: we do this weasel word stuff all the time. Where
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: we figured out trophy hunting is negative, like you know,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: from Africa to the US wherever. If it's pure trophy hunting,
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: it is not very palatable to the to the general
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: hunters and to the general population. So we went, well,
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: mature box, they're responsible, Like that's a responsible way to hunt.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: But you're right, we just kind of we just kind
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: of switched the definition and we're like, they just happen
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: to have the biggest antlers, you know, and I we
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: don't wait for them to get eight and a half
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: nine and a half years old on the downswing, you know,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: we're like, okay, fill them in the prime.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: But let's uh, let's what's the what's the alternative? You know,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: because if you're saying trophy hunting or being all geeked
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: out about antlers, big antlers is has been a negative
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: thing in your view, Tony, And from like the anti
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: hunt to what you're saying, the fact that this idea
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: of trophy hunting has been proven and many many surveys
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: like trophy hunting is very unpopular with the general public.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: So if the idea of trophy hunting is going to
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: hurt us in the eyes of the non hunting public
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: who have the majority and the opportunity to strip us
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: of our privilege, So if that's a bad thing about it,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: If people are getting bummed out about hunting because they
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: can't meet the expectations they have based on the trophy
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: as they see on TV. If you're saying Dan that
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: you know, we're losing access to quality places where people
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: can kill big deer is the alternative. Just I guess
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know where do we go from here? Because
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: all that's true in a way, But at the same time,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: we all still like to shoot big deer. We all
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: still get geeked out by big deer, and whether we
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: want to admit it or not, big deer are also
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: the thing that everybody clicks on, that everybody taps on Instagram,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: that everybody watches on YouTube, that everybody wants to think about,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: wants to see, wants to watch on YouTube. It's the
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: deer I want to see when I'm drifting around the
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: roads in August and I'm hoping to come around a
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: corner and see a big, giant buck in the back
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: of the beanfield. So how do we we? I just
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: these are things I thought about a lot, We've talked
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: about a lot. I just don't know where we go
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: from here when we all agree like we like this thing,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: but we also know it can be toxic, I.
• 34:19
  Speaker 6: Think, Sorry, Dan, Oh, go ahead, Tony Well, I was
• 34:21
  Speaker 6: just gonna say, I don't know what the answer is, Mark,
• 34:25
  Speaker 6: but I would I would argue I would die on
• 34:27
  Speaker 6: this hill that our focus on big deer has been
• 34:31
  Speaker 6: a negative to hunting because if you just from the
• 34:34
  Speaker 6: purely perspective of access, we know the one way to
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: keep people around and keep them happy is have an
• 34:39
  Speaker 6: access to more ground, right.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: Like, that's just like a that's such a wind for
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: hunting in general. But if you look at in the
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: white tail space specifically the resource guarding, where leasing land
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: or buying land or you know, somebody's you know who,
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: maybe grandma owns the dairy farm and they used to
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: let a bunch of people in, but one of the
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: grandsons loves big Bucks and he's going to be like Graham,
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: I don't want anybody else in there. If you're talking about,
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: you know, people getting pushed on to public and smaller
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: properties and losing places. Most of that, not all of it,
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: because there's urban development. There's a lot of stuff that happens.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: But it has been an undeniable facet of hunting that
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: the idea that you can control a place and kill
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: big Bucks has has kept a lot of people from
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: access to ground. I don't know what you do about it,
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: because I don't I don't want to stop people from
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: being able to buy land and lease land and do
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: their thing. So you look at that and go, what's
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: the hedge against it? Maybe opening up more public maybe
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: more walk in access programs. I don't. I don't know,
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: but I think I think we need to acknowledge. It's
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: the same thing with a non resident resident fight. We
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: have to acknowledge that we are really selfish in some ways,
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: like we want it for ourselves, we want it easier,
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: and we will we will do things to get that.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: And so that's I mean, it's okay, like we're all
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: like that. We all, like you said, we all want
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: the big bucks, we want a fun hunt, but that
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: comes at a price, and we have to be aware
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: of that. So if if we're gonna just inherently naturally
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: be that way, we should acknowledge it and work on
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: the other end and work for that access or or
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: something that kind of can help level that out.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I one hundred percent agree with you. And
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: then would also tag on the fact that while it's
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: true that we all do enjoy seeing the big deer
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: and all that comes with that, it's not to say
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: that the rest of hunting is not incredible too. So
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: it's just as important too, Like we can't help but
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: celebrate big deer because they're just impressive. But at the
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: same time, we probably can make a greater effort to
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: make sure we are celebrating and talking about shooting the spike,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: shooting the dose, having the encounter, or hunting in a
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: place where we don't see a lot of deer. But man,
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: it was a hell of an experience. It was a
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: great adventure. We only saw two little yearlings, but man,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: that was a great challenger. You know, Dan's first out
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: of state kill a few years ago. That wasn't the
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: biggest year in the world, but I think you were
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: about as happy as anything. So I think those stories
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: deserve just as much airtime and as much celebration from
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: each of us, either as the media or just hunting
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: individuals too. That makes a lot of sense to me.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: But what do you thinking, Dan, I've seen your wheels turning,
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: so there.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: Was I don't know, Like, I'm sure I didn't make
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: it up. Like there's a statistic that I think about
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: a lot, and that is the amount of acres per hunter.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: And so what I'm what I'm seeing is a giant
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: split in what I'm assuming, Like I don't have any
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: hard facts for this, but this is an assumption and
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: this is what kind of you know, while one group
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: of hunters it's taking up more land per acre to
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: do their thing on, there is another group of people
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: who that acre per hunter is shrinking, and so their
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: experience is going down because obviously wild deer or wild
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: game in general is not going to want to hang
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: out in an environment where there is more predators than
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: there is, you know, just a higher ratio of predators
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: as you get to the other side. And so what
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: we have here, and Tony mentioned it, is we have
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: certain groups of people who are gatekeepers for the natural resource.
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: And they are I'm trying to think of a positive
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: word here, they are in charge of the natural resource. Right,
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: they're doing everything. They're not doing anything wrong. They just
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: are doing their thing on their land or their least
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: land or whatever, and it grows. So I think, going
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: back to your original question, the word that I want
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: to throw out there, and at any time you want
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: to change culture or change a person's thoughts or beliefs,
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: somebody has to sacrifice something. And whether that is a
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: guy who is notoriously a large private land landowner, his
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: sacrifice may be let a guy who lost a property
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: hunt his own farm, maybe set some expectations for them,
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: give him, give him access to the kingdom in some way,
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: shape or form. The other one on the far the
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: far end would be if you're a public land owner,
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: you may have to sacrifice time to take somebody else hunting,
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: or to help a fellow hunter find a good place
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: to hunt, or talk to the person that you have
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: permission on and just be like, hey, listen, I got
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: a buddy. He does he doesn't hunt very much or
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: whatever his story is, you mind if he hops on
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: with me and I can kind of take him under
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: my wing. Those types of things, And there's so many
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: different examples of that moving forward. But you can change
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: an individual can change, I'm assuming rather easily, but an
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: entire culture, an entire group of people. You ask people to, Hey,
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: do me a favor. And in Tony's example, it's trophy
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: hunting or big antlers. Hey, I need you to stop
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: caring about big antlers.
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: Uh what what.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: You want me to stop caring about? Big bucks? Big
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: bucks are or what I think about every day?
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I need you to stop thinking about that for
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: you know, the rest of your life. And so in
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: order to change the culture, and that is a a tsunami.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: Trying to stop a tsunami, it's the way I think
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: it would be damn near impossible.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why I don't think you can stop that.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I think you you more so just have to create
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: a tsunami in the other way too, so you have
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: growing energy for the other parts of hunting as well.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Back to like the access thing and the challenge here,
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: I think something worth noting is like, you're right there.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: There's if we recognize that this this access thing and
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: this kind of distribution of resources not being fair, right,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: it's also just the reality of the world. It is
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: what it is. Like, we we have a very in
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: demand resource, which is white tailed deer or land access,
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: and we either accept the fact that that's how things
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: go in a capitalist society or we try to become
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: you know, redistribution of income commies or whatever. So we're
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: not going to go that route. So the fact is like,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: this is this is what it is. And people with
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: their hard earned money bought their properties, did their thing,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: and God bless them. But I think you bring up
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: some good points, Dan, which is like on the for
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: those that have you know, there's the old saying. I
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: don't know where it came from, but like with those
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: with great power, comes great responsibility, right, I think it's
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: worth reminding all of us, For those of us that
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: do have access, for all of us that do own
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: land or have a lease or have great spots like,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: remember there's other people out there who don't have that,
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: and and maybe we can all do a little bit
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: more to share our access in one way or another.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: That's one way we can help on this issue. On
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: the flip side, Tony, you brought this up, and I
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: think it's a really good thing too. We still need
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: to continue working to add new access. So let's make
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: sure that if we're gonna bitch and moan about not
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: having enough public land, then we should each and all
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: of us individually be working to increase access opportunities by
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: supporting any legislation that comes down the pipeline that might
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: lead to new access. By you know, learning about the
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Farm Bill, which is the bill every hand four or
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: five years that funds many of these walk in habitat programs,
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: that gets you the access in Kansas, that gets you
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: the access in Michigan, that gets you a lot of
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: these private land properties that are opened up to public
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: land hunting. That's all funded through the Farm Bill, and
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: so learn about that, learn about how to talk to
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: your senators and representatives about supporting that when it comes
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: up for reauthorization this coming year. That's something we can do.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And then of course fight like hell to make sure
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: we don't lose public lands. I think those two things.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: If you have access, share it, If you care about
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: public access, fight for it. I do think that's one
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: thing that all of us could partake into to some degree.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's if you own land, invite a bunch of people,
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: if you just have permission, see if you can have
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: permission to have a buddy join you a couple of times,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: take a new hunter, whatever it is. I think those
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: are a few, like tangible things we can do that
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: chip away at this a little. But if we're all
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: not trying to do our own part in this, that
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: the avalanche is going to keep on going down the mountain.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: It's just it's only going to get worse. And I
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: think that's so many things within this larger conversation of
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: like where things stand in our culture. There's all these
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: micro issues, and all of them are going to continue
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: sliding down the slope. Whatever the easy thing is. That's
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: where things are going to go unless we, as a
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: collective within this community all decide, okay, you know what,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: this is the thing that matters. I'm going to do
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: my little part. We can all do our own little part,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: and that all adds up. Like you said, Dan, you can't.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: You can. You can change an individual relatively easy, it's
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: really hard to make a whole community change their mind.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: But we don't need to do that. All we need
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: to do is own ourselves and that does add up
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: to something.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: But Mark on that point though, Mark, I think there's
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: like a I think when we talk about this, if
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: you're like, oh, we need to change wholesale change the
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: hunting culture, what we like one of the big things
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: we really need to do is the perception. So when
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: you when you mentioned earlier about the haves and the
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: have nots, it's like, that's that's how it's going to
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: break down. Some people are going to have a lot
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: of resources, some people aren't going to have very many.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: That's how nature works, right. But in our very specific
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: instance here, I feel like we would benefit so much
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: from all being more honest about you know, the easy
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: hunts we have and the hard hunts we have, because
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: it's so easy to try to default and paint yourself
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: as like such a badass and like this was so
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: hard and I worked so hard for it when we know.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: This for fifteen years.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: Dude, some hunts are hard and some are not. And
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: you know, the messaging from the top down has been
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: that no matter what, this is a real struggle and
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: we're lucky to kill our you know, second hundred and
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: eighty incher this week and you just happened to come
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: in and you know, never mind that we've been watching
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: him for seven years and we have you know, you
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like if we were more honest
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: about just what's really going on, Like how much time
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: do you have?
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: Like I always think about this with the hunting public guys,
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: is you know, they're super good hunters. They're good dudes,
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: but they you need to acknowledge the advantages. Right if
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: you're if you're in a western river bottom hunt and
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: you have four or five six people glassing different spots,
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: good hunters scouting huge advantage And I'm not taking anything
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: away from them, but the more you're like, listen, if
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: you think you're going to come out here by yourself
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: and have the same results. Maybe not, you know, like
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: it just it's just not going to probably work that way.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: And I think, I think we need to change the
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: perception of what we do because killing big deer is
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: really easy on good like really good properties, Like that's
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: a special scenario and so you look at that and go, well,
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: that one sixty that is not the same kind of
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: deer that a lot of people are hunting. And I
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: think we all inherently know that, but just just to
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: change like how we look at it and go, yeah,
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: some people have that and that's great, but that's not
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: the reality that a lot of people are walking into.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: Like you got to you got to adjust what your
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: expectations are for your time in the field like that
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: that has no bearing on what you're going to experience.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I feel like in my view,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: it's always been not silly, like for for folks who
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: have or who are killing these big giant deer, I
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: don't you do your thing? I think everyone, I think
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: the person in that world Tony probably doesn't feel like
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: it's easy. They still feel like they're putting in a
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: ton of work. Probably right. I mean, it's a different
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: kind of work. But I'm telling you, if you talk
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: to someone who owns a thousand acres of land, they're
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: going to tell you what I've I've spent so many
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: days on the tractor, I've spent so many days scouting
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: and stuff. I've spent so many days doing that, and
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: they're going to say it's just as valuable as what
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: you're doing. So so I get what you're saying, and
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: I'm I guess what I'm adding on is that I
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: like or the argument you're making that resonates the most
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: is not so much tell that guide to a minute,
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: it's easy, but rather everybody else, remember to set your
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: own expectations based on where you're at, what your situation is,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: what your goals are, and don't get too wrapped up
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: in what anybody else is doing. Right, We've all had
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: this conversation with the past, like hunt your own hunt
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: and try to put on blinders to what everybody else
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: is doing, because it doesn't matter what Dan's doing or
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: what I'm doing. Just focus on you, right, and don't
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: get worked up about what's on YouTube or what's on
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: the outdoor channel, because that's where these mismatched expectations and
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: disappointment and frustration comes in, right.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think and I agree with you, the
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: pre hunt work part is big, right. If you're a
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: white to hunter, what you do before the hunt is
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: the most important stuff, whether you're scouting public land or
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: you're planting one hundred acres of food plots. But I
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: think I think the people who do that know that
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: they're doing that to make the hunting easy. So that
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: work is not easy. Running a business is not easy,
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: you know, farm in the land is not easy. I
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: get that. But the whole reason that that's happening is
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: so the hunting will be easy, you know what I mean.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: And so I think it's they would say that that's
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: part of the hunting, but I get what you're saying.
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, it's just different and it you know,
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: I'm like, again, I'm not they donuts for donuts. People
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: want to do that and enjoy it great. I'm just saying, like,
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: let's just I think we have an obligation on our
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: side of things to just be honest about this stuff.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to shift a little bit of
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: our direction. It's it's going to all kind of tie in.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: But there's another whole side of like where our culture
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: is going. So we've talked kind of about access. We've
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: talked about, you know, what we value, whether it be
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: antlers or the experience or or whatever. We've talked about
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: that a little bit. I think another big thing that
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: goes to this idea of like making it easy. Tony
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: written about this quite a bit over Mediator in the
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: last year or two is all these different things we're
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: doing to make it easier. I think technology is a
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: big part of that now. So you've got things like,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: you know, cell cameras more and more popular and prevalent,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: more technology there, you know, instant photos, live streaming video. Now,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: you've got more and more people using thermal scopes going
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: out there and yeah, well yeah, crossbows are a thing.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: Thermal scopes where you've got these no scopes that you
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: can put on your crossbow or something and basically shoot
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: after dark if you were so inclined. People are using
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: thermal scopes for recovering deer now or just like driving
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: around and thermal scoping everything to see if there's deer
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: in a thicket. You've got a lot of drone use now,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: people using drones to scout properties to do, you know,
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: see where the deer are at certain times of year. Then,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: of course is the question of using drones to recover deer.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: You've got rifle scope technology now where you can just
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: zap it at auto range, finds the animal and then
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: sets your radical to aim exactly where you need to
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: aim with this wind direction, at this thousand yard distance
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: or whatever. There's a whole lot of different specifics, and
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: I don't even I don't know what to make of
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: where all this is going, except for the fact that
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: it's not going to stop. This is going to continue,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: and so do we fight it, do we not fight?
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: It?
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Doesn't matter? Does it not matter? Somebody twenty years ago
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: probably would have looked at where we are today and said,
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, if that stuff happens, it's going to
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: ruin hunting. But here we are sitting here today and
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: we're still hunting, and a lot of people are happy,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: and many people say it's the golden days of whitetail hunting.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: So high level, when I bring up all of that stuff, Dan,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: what makes your skin tingle, what makes your chest tighten,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: what makes you either excited or worried? Where's your head
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: out when it comes to these things.
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: I look at it like I'm kind of a purist
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: because I grew up hunting in what I would say
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: is some of the and it's because I was green.
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: I didn't know, so I made it hard for myself. Well,
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: it was hard because I didn't understand dear and how dear.
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: I didn't understand people and how obsessed they got. So
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: I grew up in a time and that was that
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: was early on. And then my whole story is that
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: I hunted for a little bit, became a degenerate, and
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: then I found hunting again right when I was about
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: twenty six, and that's when I dove into it.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: And that's when I said, I love this. And so.
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: I feel like, I don't know, I just feel like
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: as I feel like hunting saved me. Hunting, hunting kind
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: of course correct in my life and kept me in
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: the woods and kept me out of bars and then
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: hanging out with the wrong people. And so I have
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: a connection to hunting that goes deeper than just antlers.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: It's it's something that is like in me, it's like
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: a part of it's my it's my it's in my heart,
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: you know. And so when I look at someone and
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: I and I'm it's this is me judging them. I'm
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: judging them, and I'm saying, man, you're taking advantage of
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: this natural resource. You're you're not showcasing the beautiful sunsets,
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: the fresh air.
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: You're not like.
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: There's there's some there's something pure and beautiful about this
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: hunting and the outdoors. And then when I see companies
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: taking advantage of that and using that to make dollars,
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: it becomes muddy for me, and I just I don't
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: like it.
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: I like hunting because it is a challenge, because it
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: is difficult because big bucks just don't walk underneath your stand.
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: They don't do that. They don't where I hunt big
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: big deer or any deer. They don't just come into
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: a food plot or wherever the food sources. They don't
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: just come out and stand in front of you for
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: twenty minutes then you shoot them. Right, That just doesn't happen.
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: And so when I see someone wanting to make something easier,
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: I just kind of laugh at it. And because all
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: they're doing is hurting themselves, right, They're trying to say,
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: oh God, I need a weapon that has a longer range,
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: so I don't need to get as close, thus risking
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: getting blown out. Oh well, I don't want to scout
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: because it sucks in August when it's ninety percent humidity.
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: I think I'm just going to use this cell camera
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: to tell me everything I need to know. Right, But
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: all you're doing is missing something. You're missing this whole
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: education by time and the stand by time in the woods,
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: and and so I'm only comparing all of that to
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: me and what my personal likes and dislikes are.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: And that's the trick though, is like, and the where
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: I struggle with all this on is we can only
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: we're always judging based on where we put ourselves. Like,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: so we've got our thing, which is where I draw
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: my line. So this is what I think is okay.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: But there's always going to be someone who's a little
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: bit more comfortable, and there's always probably gonna be someone
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: who's a little bit less comfortable. Right, There's we can
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: sit here on our high horse and say, oh, you
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: shouldn't use that super long range rifle, or you shouldn't
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: use that such and such livestream trail camera. But then
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: at the same time, there's gonna be somebody else who's
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: gonna look at me and say, well, you shouldn't use
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: a cell camera at all, or you shouldn't use a
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: compoumbou I only use a tread bill, or you shouldn't
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: hunt private access at all, because I only hunt public
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: land and that's harder than your permission. So what I
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: don't know, and what I am constantly trying to figure out,
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: is how do we as a community wrestle with what
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: is appropriate versus not because in the end, we the hunters,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: the community, should be just making those decisions and not
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: the companies. Right oftentimes we'll just go along with the company.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: If the technology is there, we just use it. That's
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: the easy thing to do. But I would say that
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: we should rather in some kind of way try to
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: self enforce or try to be the ones who are
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: helping direct this stuff versus just what's the next money
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: making thing? Right? But how do we do that in
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: a way that isn't just me saying my view on
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: this is better than your view, where where I'm AT's
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: better than where you're at. I don't know practically how
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: we tackle this as a community because of the fact
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: that is inherently such an individual choice that.
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: That's where you go with it, though, I think so,
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: I think I think you present this message of take
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: you know, if you want to use every every advantage
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: you can, you know, one hundred yard crossbow, bait, pile,
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: cell cameras, whatever. I think we have to just present
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: this image of like are you happy because you hear
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: a lot of people bitching about their hunting, and so
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: is this you know, are is having twelve cell cameras
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: out there making you happy because you're not going into
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: the woods as much for sure, right Like, you're not scouting,
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: you're not putting it in. It's like, you know, there's
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: a reason you're going to go run eighteen miles in
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: the mountains when you could just buy a metal from Amazon. Sure,
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: you know, would cut out the whole training process and
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: the race and have the trophy. But it's not the
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: same thing, right Like, there's a reason that you're challenging
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: yourself that way. So I think I think for some
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: people they're out there and they're like, I have, you know,
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: five days to see in to hunt because I have
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: six kids at home and a demanding job and whatever,
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: I want every advantage I can I can get and
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: I think there are some people who are looking at
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: it going I feel like I should be using a
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: lot of this stuff because it promises me an easier
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: filled tag, but it's not making me feel better. I'm
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: not enjoying it as much. So I think you have
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: to look at that. I'm seeing this with some of
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: my buddies because they're at the age where they're buying
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: properties and they're building them up and the food plots
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: and the box lines and all this stuff, and it's
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: to the point where they don't really have to scout anymore.
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: And that's a big like they're missing this big part
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: of whitetail hunting. And it seemed like on paper, you'd
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: be like, that's the dream. You've got it made. You know,
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: you can go in here and sit on Halloween and
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: you're gonna have a great hunt and see a lot
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: of deer and maybe kill a big one. But there's
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: something missing for some people who need that. So I
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: think on an individual level, just like with the hunting media,
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: like I think on an individual level, you have to
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: go am I happy, like do I enjoy this? And
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: kind of have to you have to work with that, and.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe maybe one of the solutions here is
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: leaning into it's it's it's maybe the same solution to
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: the whole trophy hunting whatever that I think we've all
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: recognized has gone too far in some ways. Rather than
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: bemoaning it or pointing a finger like, oh, you got
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: to change, you're the problem, the solution might almost always
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: be celebrating the other alternative side, which is like celebrating
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: the fact that, man, this other stuff's pretty darn cool too,
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: celebrating the fact that the hard work around the scouting
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: or the hard work behind the whatever, or the doing
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: this without cameras or the doing this with the harder tool,
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: celebrating the joy in that, and the fact that doing
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: these things in these different ways without the extra technology
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: is worthwhile as well. So it's it's not necessarily bringing
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: down someone else, because everyone's gonna do what they're gonna do,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: and we're all gonna draw our own lines in the sand.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: But maybe it's shining a positive light on the value
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: of this alternative way, which is becoming more and more alternative.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: I keep going back to and I don't know if
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: you ever can do this, but is there any way
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: that we can self enforce or self police or that's
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: not the right word. But I think to some degree
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: this happened like when drones first showed up on the
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: map and it became pretty obvious to everyone, like, man,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: they shouldn't be used to hunt, you shouldn't be allowed
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: to use them in real time during the season, And
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: a bunch of states put rules in place because there's
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: public support for it, very quickly, and we said, man,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: that's that's too far. You know, is there a way
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: to do that in today's world. I don't know around
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: some of these technologies, but I but I wish there were.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: But again it comes down to my line. The signds different.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: But I mean, you don't know.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: To do it, you'd have to you'd have to link
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: some technology to an impact on the resource. You know
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: what it is?
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, go ahead, sorry, Tony. I think So here's a
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: specific example that I thought of that I thought would
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: be really cool, and I hope some company will do this,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: and this might be a model that we can vote
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: with our dollars, right, we can vote with our dollars
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: and our choices. I personally, my line the sand when
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: it comes to sell cameras is that I think live
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: streaming video, Like seeing what a deer is doing right
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: now and acting on that is inappropriate in my view.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: I personally also think that getting a picture right now
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: and being able to go do something right now is
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: inappropriate for me. Like that feels icky for me. If
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: I were sitting in the tree stand and I got
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: a ding on my phone and I looked at it
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: and it said the buck you're after is one hundred
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: and fifty yards away there, And if I could slip
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: down out of my tree with my rifle and sneak
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: over there and shoot him because I know he's right there,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: that feels inappropriate to me personally. So if I were
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: in charge of the world, I would say that cell
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: cameras should not be able to live stream and they
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: should have some level of delay. Personally, for me, I
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: would put a twenty four hour delay on pictures. What
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: if we could make a fair Chase branded cell camera
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: or a certification and so you could say, man, I
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: only use fair Chase certified cell cameras, which means there's
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: a twelve hour mandatory delay on everything, So you can't
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: see live video, you can't see live photos. Whatever it is. Now,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: I recognize this is my own personal line in the sand.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: But for me, if you stamped down a trail camera
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: and said, man, this is a fair Chase certified camera,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: That'd be the only camera I'd use and I'd be
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: pretty stoked about it, and I bet a lot of
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: other people would be two. And that'd be like a
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: badge of honor for that product. To use it. It
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: could be a marketing plus for that kind of company.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: So rather than a company thinking they need to make
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: it easier for hunters to sell more products, instead, we
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: would buy products because it makes us a little harder
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: for hunters, and we would prefer that product because it
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: is a badge of honor. It shows that we are
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: willing to limit ourselves in some kind of ways. What
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: if you could do that with other technology too, That's
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: an idea. Does that resonate with either one of you
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: or does that sound stupid?
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: I like it right, That's a great example, But my
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: gut tells me nobody is on board with that. Like,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 4: look at this world we live in today where everybody
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: gets their satisfaction from a phone. There's no more human interaction.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: This all day.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: People do this all day. My daughter, when I give
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: her one hour a day, on her cell phone. She's
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: like this for one hour on it. Okay, it's crack cocaine, right.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: And so you tell someone, hey, here's a cell cam.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: Oh no, no, no, no, no. It does not send
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: you pictures. It only sends you pictures at midnight when
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: you're sleeping, you kidd meet people do not like general humans.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: They're not going that direction. But when I say that,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: when I say that, I'm saying democracy, that we live
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: in a democracy. And if people hate cell cameras, Mark,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: or you want this fair chase cell camera, Mark, you
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: know what you get when you live in a democracy.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: You get the opportunity to rally like minded people and
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: express that opinion to the Department of Natural Resources. And
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: you say, listen me and this one thousand people, we
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: don't like that a cell camera sends you something immediately.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: We want restrictions on cell cameras. And here's a thousand
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: people the opposite side. They better rally, they better get
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: a group of people, like minded individuals to say, well,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: hold on a second. I got one thousand and one
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: people right here, and we are in support of live
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: streaming and all of that stuff. And I think a
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 4: lot of it has to do with getting people excited
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: about a topic, whether they like it or dislike it,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: getting the information and then that's that's happening right now
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: in Iowa, Okay, the Iowa bow Hunters Association, the Iowa
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 4: Sportsman's Club, right, we are we are taking strides because
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: we have a community of like minded individuals and this
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: is specifically about crossbows.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: There's a company out there, and I've said this, I've
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: said this before. There's companies out there that are sending
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: lobbyists to Iowa in order to get crossbows legalized. During
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: the hunting season. They are doing that, or during the
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: archery season. Archery season. Now, mind you, Iowa already has
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 4: crossbows across bow season. It's during the late season, muzzleloader season.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: But that's not enough, right, So these companies send lobbyists
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 4: and it is all it is is it's a cost analysis.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: If this law passes in this state, we will make
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: X number of dollars. That's what it is, okay. And
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: so usually in the past, all of those laws get
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: passed without the Department of Natural Resources taken any into
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: any data that they have. It's a it's never like hey, guys,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: do you want this or not. And so what's happened
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: is the Iowa Bow Hunters Association and some other organizations
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: have stepped up and they've said, we don't work not
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: the ones calling for this, We don't want this rule
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: to happen or these said rules. And so what we've
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: done is we've rallied a bunch of people and we've
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: gone to our like you said, we've gone to our representatives,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: and we've said this is bullshit, we don't want it.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: And and so far I believe we were on an
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: undefeated streak of eleven and zero for bills that this
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: group of people disagree with.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 6: So I ran there, did I answer your question?
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: I was going to say something here, Hey, Mark, do
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: you think this morning Dan was supposed to take a
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: riddle in and he took PCP instead.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: I'm telling you this in all serious near. This is
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: what I think about, right. I don't have any other
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: passions in life my children, and hunting is what I do.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: And so I know you're joking, but I am on
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: PCP all the time for natural resources.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: I'm serious, man, No, I love it. So I want
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: to just touch on that a little bit. So Mark,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: when you said, when you bring up this idea of
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: a of a twenty four hour delay on a cell
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: camera fairchase camera. I think the reason that that makes
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: the most sense, and some of the stuff Dan's talking
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: about makes sense is because what we're gonna do is
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: we're gonna have this technology that we already have, it's
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: going to get better and eventually it's going to have
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: an impact on the resource or the experience. So they're
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: going to retroact, and by that I mean the DNR,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: you know, State Game Agency is going to retroactively go
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: no cell cameras or no you know, because that's the
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: only option they have, right blanket ban. And so some
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: of this stuff, if you just look in the future,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: it's the same thing with the forward facing sonar and
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: fishing right now. If you look into the future, there's
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: going to be an impact on the resource eventually because
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: it's going to get cheaper, it's going to be more
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: ubiquitous across everybody out there, and we're going to have
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: to do something. And if they only have one option,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: which is not at all or wholesale, then they're gonna
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: ban it. And so I think some of this stuff
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: is great, Like I like the idea of bringing a
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: logical fight to them and going, we are worried about
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: crossbows in Iowa. Here's why we are a representative group
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: of bowhunters, and this is what scares us about it.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: Same thing if you're sitting there and go, I don't
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: feel great about livestream cameras. I don't feel great about
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: anybody having, you know, spending one hundred and twenty bucks
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: and getting a cell camera that could send pictures to
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: their phone instantly. So maybe this is where it starts, like,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: maybe that is what you need to do, is already
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: be talking about these options because they're going to come
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: into play at some point. Probably.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing, though, let.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: Me let me, hey, Mark, let me finish a real
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: quick thought. There's Tony shut old angel dust here, go ahead, buddy, I.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: Haven't had that. I haven't heard that term since high school.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: Hey, you can't fly man, stay away from the edges
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: of the tall buildings, buddy, exactly, exactly. Okay, you know
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: I haven't done that. Maybe DARE Drug Abuse Resistance Education
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: can sponsor wire to hunt.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: Just say no, Dan, just say no.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: Anyway.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 4: Anyway, so you were talking about the buzzword. Here is
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: fair chase. Okay, there's no definition of fair chase. Because
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: in Ohio you can use crossbows and it's legal to
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 4: use bait. In Texas, who knows what the definition of
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: fair chase is down there, right, And so every community,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: every state has a different definition of fair chase, yep.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: And and so how are we supposed, I mean, unless
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: you have like a flat wall across the entire land,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 4: no baiting, no crossbows, it is not fair chase to
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 4: use those things or sell cams or whatever the case
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: may be. There's no definition. So how are we supposed
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: to support or be against something that does not have
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: a clear definition.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. And in it also because these things
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: are defined by the individual, it then becomes like this
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: whole issue of personal judgment calls. And then it comes
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: back to what Tony mentioned at the very top, which
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: is all of these internal divisions, right, everything we're talking about,
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: many of the things we're talking about here, at least
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: crossbows versus non crossbows, or cell cameras versus non cell cameras,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: or private land versus public land. There's a lot of
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: us versus I'm saying, right, we've got all these internal conflicts,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: We've got all these internal divisions, which some people would say, Hey,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: we got to quit all the internal squabbling because we've
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: got external factors that are also at play that are
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: a bigger risk. And if we're tearing ourselves apart, we're
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: making ourselves vulnerable to these other things. And there's truth
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: in that too, I think, to a degree. So I
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: don't know how how we've had this same conversation for years, guys.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: I can remember Dan, you and me talking about this
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: a decade ago. We were slightly we were probably slightly
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: chubbier and slightly dumber, but basically dumber, basically the same thing.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: And I don't know how you tackle it and change
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: it without there being these internal divisions. And maybe that's necessary.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: Maybe it is, okay, I would say it is. You
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: have to have some internal squabbling. A family does not
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: solve their issues by sitting at the dinner table and
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: pushing everything underneath the rug and never bringing up the
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: hard topics, right. That just leads to more animosity bubbling
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: underneath the surface. That leads to you hard feelings that
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: stay hidden away, and then all of a sudden explode
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: that leads to negativity growing and growing and growing. So
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: I think Number one a healthy family addresses their differences
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: and concerns upfront, and so I personally would say, it
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: is okay to have these conversations, and we should have
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: these conversations, but they should be handled like a healthy family,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: not the crazy psychotic family dinner at Thanksgiving where people
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: are yelling and screaming each other and calling each other names,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: but instead with respect and interest. In the other point
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: of view, I think if we can do that, that
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: maybe leads to the family or the community moving in
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: a better direction, or at least understanding each other better.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: But then I go back to this, I think a
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: solution to many of these things that does work that
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: is not necessarily like creating unnecessary divides and having me
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: be like I'm better than you, you should do it
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: my way. I think a lot of this goes back
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: to rather than telling people what they shouldn't do or
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: what they're doing wrong, or why they're luckier than I am,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: or why it's not fair that you have this and
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: I have this, or that you use this technology and
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: I can't use the technology. I think in many ways
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: the better solution is just leading by positive example in
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: the way you think is more positive. So doing the thing,
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: celebrating the thing, telling the stories about the thing, sharing
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: with your friends and family about the thing that you
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: find valuing in a positive way. So if you think
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: that we need to have more access, well then show
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: through your example how you can create that and how
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: we value that. If you think that it is better
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: to have a more restricted weapon when you hunt, that
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: you shouldn't use crossbows, or you shouldn't use high power
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: rifles or whatever it is, then showcase what you're doing
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: and the value that has and lead through that example
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: and make it cool, make it appealing, make it possible
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: for others to do it in that kind of way.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: If you want to have a fair chase cell camera,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: well then you know, live by that and make it
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: so that your buddies want to do that same thing,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: so that if I could influence my best hunting buddies
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: and me, you know, this is the way I've been
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: doing things, and actually I enjoy hunting more. I don't
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: feel like I'm getting left in the dust because I
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: still have a challenge. I still have this, this and this,
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: and I think that can lead to positive change in
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: a way that's not this like dictatorial finger pointing. Hey,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: you're taking away my rights. Hey, you're forcing your beliefs
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: on me, negative tearing apart kind of thing. Does any
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: of that make sense?
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: Well, because that's what's coming if we if we don't,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: if you don't get ahead of it, that's what's going
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: to hit you eventually, right, Ye, you know, yeah.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of it. A word that just
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 4: keeps coming to mind as empathy. And I'll give you
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: a little bit of an example. I used to have
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 4: different thoughts back in the day about using dogs to hunt,
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 4: all right, and I thought, for some reason, I thought, hey, dude,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 4: that that wasn't sportsman. That's not sportsmen. Right, you're using
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 4: a dog to track, you know, obviously you're.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: Gonna get it or whatever. Whatever.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 4: My dumb ass thoughts were back then, and it was
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 4: because I was uneducated about the topic. And then I
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 4: met a you know, then you meet guys like Clay Nucombe,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 4: who is probably one of the nicest people that I've
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 4: ever met in my entire life. And then I imagine
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 4: a law being passed where Clay Nukeomb cannot use dogs
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 4: to hunt. You know how bum that dude would be
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 4: if if you took that and so took that from
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: him along with some of the other people in the
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 4: hound hunting community that I've met throughout the years, and
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 4: they these are nice people. And I'm sure there's someone
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 4: out there who shoots a crossbow that is extremely nice
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 4: and pleasant to be around, same with you know, sell
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: cameras or you know, you know things like that.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: And and you just you just.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 4: Got to go meet the people, right have a have
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 4: a discussion. We just live in a world right now
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 4: where it's like I am Republican, you are Democrat, I
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 4: hate you, or vice versa or whatever your whatever your
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 4: belief is. People just die on the sword all the time.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 4: They don't ever want to have a conversation with their
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 4: friend or dude, you know what me.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 3: You get it right now, you get it, you know
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: what I mean?
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: Can I comment on that?
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: Yes? Please?
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's amazing because I always think Clay is
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: such an.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 6: Assholes he's two side. Probably No, Clay's a wonderful, wonderful person.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: But what you say there, Dan is way more important
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: than it may be being presented, at least in my eyes.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: Like just think about your hunting when you started going
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: to South Dakota and experiencing an environment that is not Iowa,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: and you're like, I want to be here, I want
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: to hunt. And then you think, okay, I am against
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: hound hunting for deer or hound hunting for bears or whatever.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: And then you start to meet hound hunters and see
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: how passionate they are and you go, Okay. Exposure to
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: all this stuff opens your mind a lot. And so
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: one of the things we do is hunters, which is
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: really bad for us. This hit home for me. I
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 3: was at a I was at a meeting here in Minnesota.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: This the Minnesota d and R was doing a little
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: tour and they were going to do some changes to
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: the deer season and there's some proposals out there, and
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: so I went to one of these up here in
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: the cities and I don't remember, you know, fifty sixty
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: people in this room. DNR makes their presentation, everybody has
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 3: a chance to talk, and what blew my mind was
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: almost to a person in that audience, their only concern
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: when they asked a question was on my forty acres.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 3: I don't see very many of this, or on the
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: at where our cabin is.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 6: We don't see this, or we've always had this. It
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 6: was a very it's very easy to just.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: Look at hunting through the lens of this little world
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: that you live in. That's your hunting spot, that's all
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: you do. And as soon as you expand your horizons
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: a little bit and do some other stuff, you realize, like,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: there's a pretty big world out there beyond the borders
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: of the property you're used to hunting. And I kind
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: of think that's an anecdote for a lot of this
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: stuff of being like I would vote away you know,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: your ability or your opportunity to use this kind of
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 3: technology or to use this kind of thing or hunt
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: this kind of way, because I don't do it. But
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: as soon as you star are traveling and getting even
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: in your own county, like going from your private place
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 3: to a public land spot to hunt rabbits or something like,
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 3: anything you do that opens you up to these other
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: experiences changes how you view this stuff. And I think
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: that I think in hunting it's so easy to just
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: get sort of like tunnel vision on our are what
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: we want and where we hunt.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that for sure. So if if
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: I were to distill everything we've talked about, three things
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: bubble to the surface. For me, like three takeaways. And
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: I'm curious if these are like the three truths that
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: you guys called out from here. But I think number
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: one and I guess what I'm trying to do here
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: is set a stage for where this conversation continues to
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: go for because I think that's the thing with any
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: conversation around culture, ethics, our community, fair chase, all these
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: things related to the culture of hunting. There's no end all,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: be all right, We're not going to solve all the
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: problems today. Nobody can solve all the problems or figure
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: things out today or this year. It's an ongoing conversation,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: it's an ongoing process. It's a fluid thing, right, And
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: so I think number one is the fact that we
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: all have to be engaged in that fluid thing. We
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: need to be aware of the fact that there is
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: this culture that we are a part of, and it
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: is going somewhere, and we can either bury our head
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: in the sand and just go along with the float,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: or we can choose to engage in it and be
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: a part of that direction. Right, I would rather be
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: on the boat paddling versus floating with my head down.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: So I would say number one takeaway from This for
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: me is like, there is a thing going the culture
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: of hunting that will impact the future of this activity
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: in this lifestyle, and whether it's around in the future,
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: whether it's something we want our kids to be involved
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: in the future, et cetera. So be a part of it,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: don't just let it go flowing past you. That's number
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: one to me. Number two, I think is this idea
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: of remembering, as you said, Dante, to have empathy with others,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: which is the idea of empathy is just looking at
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: things from other people's perspective and remembering that everything doesn't
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: revolve around just you. And like you said, Tony, it's
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: not just what's happening on your property, not just what
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: you think about things. But there are these different ways
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: of looking at the world. There are these different places
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: we come to the world from. There are these different
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: backgrounds and context. So when we talk about our culture,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: when we talk about fair chase or hunting decisions or
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: access or anything, have empathy with others and let that
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: be a way that guides this engagement that you have.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: And then finally, I think that in a lot of ways,
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: if you see a change that you think needs to happen,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: in the culture in where hunting is going. I think
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: in many ways we are going to do better if
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: we try to influence with the carrot and not the stick.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: So rather than you're wrong, screw you, you can't have
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: this thing, maybe we can lead with the lead by example,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: show the positives of this alternative way. I think at
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: least that's one of the things I'm coming away from
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: this with is that that has a possible that that
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: can help us avoid these internal divisions and more so
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: lead our community in a way in a positive fashion
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: by making it the cool thing, or the desirable thing,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: or the valuable thing.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: This is this is where we started the trophy hunting thing.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: Twenty years ago, there were probably some people who wanted
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: there to be more big deer on the landscape. Right
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: thirty years ago, there were folks that that, I want
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: to kill more big deer. I want to see boon
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: and krack of bucks. I want to have five and
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: a half year old deer whatever, right, And there's different
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: ways to do that. You could enforce regulations to make
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: you have to pass on, you know, small deer or
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: certain antler point restrictions. There's ways to you know, enforce
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: different rules on a hunting. There's all those kinds of rules,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: and maybe that helps to some degree, But the biggest
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: thing that I think led to their being more older
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: deer around now today, larger deer. All that stuff is
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: quantifiably true. You know what changed over the last twenty
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: five years. It wasn't that there was a bunch of
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: regulations put in place across the country that really changed
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: the game. It was that the culture change. It was
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: that media and people made it cool and desirable and
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: aspirational to see bigger deer, to hunt bigger deer. You
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: saw as possible, You saw the people were having fun
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: with it, and everybody wanted to be a part of it.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: What if we could make the same kind of cultural
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: change around these other things that we think matter by
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: way of making it aspirational, cool, exciting, valuable, not by
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: putting some regulation or restriction or saying you can't do
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: this thing. I'm not saying we shouldn't have regulations and
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: all that we should, but maybe we can make the
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: same kind of positive difference by changing the culture through
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: our own example. And that doesn't apply just to the
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: three of us because we're in media. I think the
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: same can be applied to my buddy who lives in
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: southern Michigan, who has a whole bunch of other buddies,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: and who goes to the wild Game banquet and who
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: shares his pictures on social media. That person has a
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: level of influence too. And maybe that's a third thing
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: that I'm taking away from this conversation and wanting to
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: carry on as this this month goes forward. Those are
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: the three things to me. Do you guys have anything
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: else you would add to that kind of the takeaways
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: for folks to kind of be thinking about, or is
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: there anything I said that you guys think is off
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: the rails.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 4: I think hunters have to have start to have internal
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 4: conversations with themselves. I have it all the time, right.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 4: You know, most people who listen to my podcast know
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: my stance on crossbows. But I do have a heart,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 4: believe it or not, and I do think of people
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 4: and it would be like would.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 3: This benefit them?
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 4: Would would it get them out in the woods more?
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 4: Am I being self on some of these things? And
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 4: I think it all it all really starts with ourselves
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 4: and our thoughts and views on certain things. And then
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 4: you can say to yourself, how much is this, how
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 4: much do is this important to me? How much do
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 4: I wait this my ideology towards it, towards these things,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 4: And then you can say to yourself, you know what,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: I kind of have a problem with sell cams or
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 4: I kind of have a problem with this rule or regulation,
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 4: and then you can then you can say, man, I'm
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 4: just not a fan of it. Here's why I'm not
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 4: a fan of it, because you like I hate to
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 4: say it, but there's times where back in the day,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 4: I used to just have a blind opinion with no
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: information to back it up. And ultimately what I did
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 4: is I made myself look really stupid. And I mean
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 4: well thought out, well thought out idea and thoughts on
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 4: how you make your decisions and then how you express
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 4: those decisions to another group of people I think are
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 4: really important.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think, Tony? Any final thoughts?
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: I think we should have had Steve Ranella on this podcast.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: So we Steve. Steve would have put it much more
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: articulately and be way less fun though than we had.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, he's so boring. But what I'm saying is
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 6: just just big words. Like he just used big words, right,
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 6: but if.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 3: You're talking about changing the hunting culture, you know, I
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: mean it's undeniable that a guy like that has such sway,
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: you know, And so I mean it's kind of a joke,
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: but really I do agree with you, like I do
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: think we have a chance, Like I think we have
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: a chance to change how people view this first without
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: going to extremes of banning this or that, or you know,
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: advocating for something to be taken away, because that's this
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: is the thing that's biting us in the ass. And
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 3: you're going to see this in Colorado next year, and
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 3: you know, we we want something. So we're like, we
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: want fewer people out there because I want a better
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 3: experience that comes with consequences. Like that's not a free
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: play for everyone. And you know, you saw that in Kansas.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 3: I think it was last year, two years ago, when
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: they banned trail cameras on public land. It's like the
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: private land hunters are great, screw them whatever. But when
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: you when you advocate for something going away, it's going
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: away for good typically, So that's not something to take
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: lightly like it's just just because it doesn't affect you.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: Kind of like what we talked about earlier. So I think,
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: like to Dan's point too, we should be careful with
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: this stuff. Like if you're sitting there and you're like
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 3: I hate this or I love this, like you know,
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: put yourself in somebody else's shoes. Like there's a lot
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 3: of different individual experiences happen out there. So I think
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: that the most dangerous thing we do is quickly decide
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 3: to cancel something or quickly decide to take something away
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 3: because it feels like it will benefit us in the
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 3: short term, because you're you're taking that away from somebody,
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: and that's gonna affect somebody in a negative way. So
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, you're like, oh, you have the power
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: now because you're on private land in Kansas and it
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: doesn't affect you. Well, guess what what if those public
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 3: land hunters are those people just they mount an offensive
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: against baiting, and you're like, oh, well, now this is
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: an issue that affects me. And so I think we
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 3: just have to be very aware of that stuff, like
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 3: when something goes away, when the government's like no, no,
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 3: you don't have this anymore. It's freaking gone, and we
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: got to be careful about that.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 4: I also, I think there's two sides of every story too, right,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 4: And I mean for every and take this how you
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 4: want to take it, But for every Steve Ranella, there's
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 4: a Matt Renella, you know what I mean. And so somehow, somehow,
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 4: those those people have to come together and have a
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 4: conversation in community, kate with each other. There's there's the public,
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 4: the private, there's you know, you you pick the outliers
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 4: in each thing, you know, in each category, those people
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 4: need to have a conversation with each other.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: I think that's that's a good place to leave it
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: in that we have to engage on these things, like
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: we have to have these conversations, and it's there's a
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: big difference between having a conversation versus yelling at each
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: other across social media, right, And so I think I
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: think that is a really powerful thing that we can
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: all try to do a little bit more, is like
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: engage in real, open conversations with people about these things
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: and recognize that screaming at people, name calling, that doesn't
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: get us anywhere. But having a little bit of empathy,
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: trying to understand other people talking about these things, trying
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: to be a part of the solution, lead by example,
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: engage that's going to take us into a direction where
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: I think we will have a more long term future
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: for this lifestyle, hopefully healthy resources that we can enjoy,
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: and you know, all the other good stuff that we value.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: So this is a starting point. This is a beginning
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: to a several week conversation with some other folks that
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: will hopefully be much smarter than the three of us.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know if we brought any
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: answers to the table. We asked some questions. I don't
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: know if we have answers, but maybe these other people will.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: So I appreciate you too helping me get some thoughts
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: and some questions bubbling up and boiling around in the
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: heads that our listeners will hopefully be engaged in themselves
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: in these coming days and weeks. Thank you, gentlemen.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: Thank you Mark.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: I love you, Love me too, buddy.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: Hey Mark, quick here, do you think the next time
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: we get together like this it'll be an intervention for Dan.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: Usually to talk about that stuff off air?
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 3: Total, I'm just gonna email you some links to some
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 3: rehab facilities the next time I log on, and there's
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 3: like a therapist with you two. And you guys have
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: to read a note to me.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 4: It's like, dear Dan, you're so bright, but sometimes the
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 4: darkness creeps in and you're violent.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so make sure you guys tune in next time.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: All right, And that's a wrap. Thanks for being here.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: I hope we gave you a few things to think
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: about as we move forward and until next week, thank
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: you for being here and stay wired. Don