Latest / Business Roundtable / Fear Isn’t the Problem—It’s the Signal | Jacqueline Wales on Fear Intelligence & Leadership

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Fear Isn’t the Problem—It’s the Signal | Jacqueline Wales on Fear Intelligence & Leadership · Business Roundtable

0:14
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Business Roundtable podcast. I'm your host,
0:18
Speaker 1: David Carr, founder of Steward Business. Well, we bring great
0:21
Speaker 1: guests to your week after week, and I'm super excited
0:24
Speaker 1: to bring a brand new guest here on the podcast,
0:27
Speaker 1: Jacquelin Wales. We're gonna unpack it for you here. You know,
0:30
Speaker 1: I brought Jaqueline on because one of the things we
0:32
Speaker 1: talked about recently was fear and mostly tos think about
0:36
Speaker 1: fear as something that they overcome. But what I fear
0:40
Speaker 1: is actually a hidden for shaping how you lead and
0:42
Speaker 1: communicate and build trust. We're going to unpack that. I'm
0:44
Speaker 1: really joined with an expert in this area, Jacqueline Wales,
0:48
Speaker 1: who's the founder of Fear Intelligence. She's a ted X speaker.
0:52
Speaker 1: She has helped in leadership in so many different ways.
0:55
Speaker 1: We're going to have her help us unpack why fear
0:58
Speaker 1: may be the thing that leaders need to understand so
1:02
Speaker 1: that they can get the real growth of desire. So Jacqueline,
1:04
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast.
1:06
Speaker 2: Thank you, David. It's a pleasure to be here.
1:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really wonderful. I'm super excited to have you
1:11
Speaker 1: on the podcast. We haven't talked about here in this way,
1:13
Speaker 1: and I'm excited that you have had such a unique
1:15
Speaker 1: take on it. Before we get into that specifically, I
1:18
Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about your journey about
1:20
Speaker 1: where did you first realize for you, fear was really
1:23
Speaker 1: running more of your life than you wanted to admit.
1:27
Speaker 2: So I always start in my workshops and presentations by
1:30
Speaker 2: saying I've been dealing with fear for over seventy years.
1:35
Speaker 2: Take that number in for a second, seventy, which is
1:38
Speaker 2: basically telling you my age. I'm seventy four now. So
1:42
Speaker 2: I learned fear at a very early age because I
1:45
Speaker 2: grew up in a family that not only had to
1:47
Speaker 2: deal with poverty, but also dealt with alcoholism, violence, and
1:52
Speaker 2: all the concomitant behaviors that come with poverty. Frankly, and
1:58
Speaker 2: not only that, it was generational. It wasn't something that
2:01
Speaker 2: just started. And that's something I also talk about with
2:03
Speaker 2: regards to fear. It just didn't happen yesterday, and it
2:06
Speaker 2: didn't just happen in your family of origin. It started
2:09
Speaker 2: back when and people acquire habits. We'll get to that
2:12
Speaker 2: in a little bit. So I spent my early part
2:16
Speaker 2: of my childhood in Leith, Scotland, which is the port
2:19
Speaker 2: of Edinburgh. And for any of your listeners viewers, everybody
2:25
Speaker 2: tells me Edinburgh is a wonderful place. Yeah, and I
2:29
Speaker 2: couldn't wait to be gone from it. You know, different
2:33
Speaker 2: strokes for different folks, as they say. But back then,
2:36
Speaker 2: you know, it was a different city altogether than it
2:39
Speaker 2: is today. Growing up in that environment, my confidence and
2:44
Speaker 2: self esteem was extremely low, and I was expected to
2:47
Speaker 2: do much with my life. I was expected to just
2:50
Speaker 2: go like everybody else, work in a factory, get married,
2:53
Speaker 2: have kids and put up with a pub you know,
2:55
Speaker 2: a husband who goes to the pub every night. So
2:58
Speaker 2: that wasn't the path I chose. And I left home
3:01
Speaker 2: and school at fifteen, and at sixteen I left home
3:05
Speaker 2: for London. And it was a pretty interesting journey that
3:09
Speaker 2: I've given myself over the years, and it involved unwanted pregnancies,
3:15
Speaker 2: drug and alcohol addictions, marriage, divorce, leaving a child behind,
3:21
Speaker 2: two children if you count the one I gave up
3:23
Speaker 2: for adoption, and then ultimately going from London to San Francisco,
3:29
Speaker 2: where I met my husband and I've been with him
3:31
Speaker 2: now for forty six years. So there's a you know,
3:35
Speaker 2: there's a lot of story to unpack about me through fear.
3:40
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until I was in my mid thirties
3:42
Speaker 2: when I realized pregnant for the third time, that I
3:45
Speaker 2: needed to really take a deep dive into my insecurities
3:49
Speaker 2: and my fear based behaviors and thinking had all to
3:54
Speaker 2: do with, you know, thinking that I was less than
3:57
Speaker 2: and that was not good enough. And that's a primary
4:00
Speaker 2: focused for a lot of folks in fear, I'm not
4:03
Speaker 2: good enough, and so you spend your life trying to
4:05
Speaker 2: prove yourself and spend your life looking for validation for food.
4:10
Speaker 2: And that's a huge signal right there that fear is active.
4:14
Speaker 2: And that was me, you know, like just tell me
4:16
Speaker 2: I'm great, tell me I'm doing good, blah blah blah.
4:19
Speaker 2: And my self loathing was so high that I had
4:23
Speaker 2: to drown it out with drugs and alcohol. At the
4:27
Speaker 2: age of thirty five, I decided enough already, and that
4:30
Speaker 2: really began on the journey of transformation, and it took
4:33
Speaker 2: me through my forties into my fifties, and my forties
4:38
Speaker 2: was about writing books, martial arts, making music, traveling the globe,
4:44
Speaker 2: raising the family. I got two more kids, and then
4:48
Speaker 2: in my fifties, I had a big awakening. Two thousand
4:52
Speaker 2: and eight came around and we found ourselves three million
4:56
Speaker 2: short and it was a huge blow, and I was asked,
5:00
Speaker 2: what are you going to do with the rest of
5:01
Speaker 2: your life? And nobody could have told me then what
5:04
Speaker 2: I'm doing now and how I feel about fear and
5:08
Speaker 2: how it has impacted not only my life, but there
5:10
Speaker 2: are thousands of people whose lives I've touched over the
5:14
Speaker 2: last nineteen twenty years beyond that as well. So it's
5:19
Speaker 2: been quite a journey. And I like to say this
5:22
Speaker 2: is lived experience. Everything today's lived experience. You know, I've
5:26
Speaker 2: read a lot of books, I've taken programs, I've done
5:29
Speaker 2: this and that. But at the end of the day,
5:31
Speaker 2: it's what did I learn from my journey to understand
5:36
Speaker 2: why fear intelligence is what I'm calling it now in
5:40
Speaker 2: such an important piece of how we learn and change
5:45
Speaker 2: and become more of who we truly are, as opposed
5:49
Speaker 2: to the version that you might be living that's someone
5:52
Speaker 2: else's version of who you are.
5:54
Speaker 1: Yes, Oh, there's so many I'm excited to unpack, Jacqueline,
5:58
Speaker 1: and that's why I want you to have on the podcas
6:00
Speaker 1: We have so amazing, great guests, and you truly lead
6:03
Speaker 1: from what you live, and I think that's so important
6:06
Speaker 1: that we have people on the podcast here that have
6:09
Speaker 1: gone through and done the work and continue to do
6:11
Speaker 1: the work. Like you said, hey, fear is there. It's
6:13
Speaker 1: not going away. It's just how do you reframe this?
6:16
Speaker 1: And I like how you said this fear is a
6:18
Speaker 1: signal to something, and I think that really is maybe unique,
6:23
Speaker 1: maybe people haven't thought of it that way. I fear
6:25
Speaker 1: is a signal like and so one of the things
6:29
Speaker 1: that stood out to me is you were talking and
6:31
Speaker 1: going back to in our notes previously, you said, you know,
6:33
Speaker 1: fear is not necessarily the enemy, and I think, you know,
6:37
Speaker 1: could you unpack that a little bit because I think
6:39
Speaker 1: some people like it's the enemy, it's it's I got
6:41
Speaker 1: to fight this thing instead of when you say signal.
6:43
Speaker 1: That's just a little different take than I've heard.
6:46
Speaker 2: So think about this. Fear is an emotion, queer and simple,
6:49
Speaker 2: just like you know, joy said, grief, whatever, It's an emotion.
6:55
Speaker 2: But for every emotion we have in our life, we
6:57
Speaker 2: have to attach a story to it because we have
7:00
Speaker 2: to make sense of it. Our brains are pattern seekers
7:03
Speaker 2: and so when we look at the impulse of fear,
7:05
Speaker 2: which is a threat, a perceived threat, it is not
7:08
Speaker 2: necessarily a threat that's actually happening. But if we are
7:12
Speaker 2: telling ourselves a story about things that are going to
7:15
Speaker 2: go wrong, the what if scenarios that are the worst
7:18
Speaker 2: case scenarios, which is where a lot of people go to,
7:21
Speaker 2: you know, when they look down the path or when
7:24
Speaker 2: they look at the circumstances of their life and think, well,
7:27
Speaker 2: everything's frankly on a shit and so you know, we're
7:30
Speaker 2: it's just going to keep getting worse. The signal piece
7:34
Speaker 2: of fear is that there's a story here, and you
7:38
Speaker 2: need to look into that story to find out empirically
7:42
Speaker 2: does it have evidence. If there's no evidence to this story,
7:47
Speaker 2: then you're simply making stuff up. And when you make
7:50
Speaker 2: stuff up, you can get as ridiculous as you want
7:53
Speaker 2: to get with it. And I certainly did. I mean,
7:55
Speaker 2: I definitely felt for a long time life was out
7:58
Speaker 2: to get me, because you know, the stuff that I
8:01
Speaker 2: had to keep dealing with. And you know, I tell
8:04
Speaker 2: the story, but it's the typically iceberg. You know, clearly,
8:07
Speaker 2: for a lot of reasons, I'm not going into the
8:09
Speaker 2: entire thing. But there is a piece here, which is
8:13
Speaker 2: when fear shows up and you know it in your body.
8:16
Speaker 2: You can feel it. It's in your stomach, it's in
8:18
Speaker 2: your dry mouth, it's in the palm of your hands.
8:22
Speaker 2: What is the biggest fear for a lot of people
8:24
Speaker 2: public speaking? And why? Because it's about criticism and judgment.
8:30
Speaker 2: Somebody is going to tell me that I'm no good
8:33
Speaker 2: Somebody is going to have an argument about my point
8:36
Speaker 2: of view, and can I stand up to that point
8:39
Speaker 2: of view and trust me? I went through that too
8:42
Speaker 2: when I was first starting out on my speaking journey,
8:44
Speaker 2: my TEDx talk that you mentioned earlier. I was a
8:48
Speaker 2: nervous wreck, and you know, the dress rehearsal, I kept
8:52
Speaker 2: losing the space, the little lines, I wasn't moving the slides.
8:57
Speaker 2: I kept apologizing to the organizer, like you brought me
9:01
Speaker 2: on to do this, and here I am being all this.
9:04
Speaker 2: And then finally I looked at them and I went,
9:07
Speaker 2: this is what fear looks like. This is about not
9:11
Speaker 2: being good enough because I haven't put it together properly. Well.
9:16
Speaker 2: Of course, the next day I showed up, and you know,
9:17
Speaker 2: I did a little meditation beforehand. I showed up and
9:20
Speaker 2: delivered my eighteen minutes and everybody it's great.
9:23
Speaker 1: So you know, I mean, we'll put it that show
9:26
Speaker 1: so people can go check it out on YouTube.
9:28
Speaker 2: It's on YouTube. And think that is what was really active.
9:31
Speaker 2: There was the self doubt, the self judgment, and our
9:37
Speaker 2: self judgment is often wrong oft and wrong when we
9:43
Speaker 2: spend our lives trying to prove ourselves. And people who
9:46
Speaker 2: are highly competitive, for instance, they always have a need
9:49
Speaker 2: to win. And what they also do is they compare
9:51
Speaker 2: themselves to other people. When you meet a lot of leaders,
9:56
Speaker 2: they will tell you, you know, I'm not as good
9:58
Speaker 2: as so and so, and I go, yeah, but are
10:01
Speaker 2: you as good as yourself? Yes? Well what does that mean?
10:05
Speaker 2: That means that I've taken the time to become so
10:08
Speaker 2: self aware that I know what my strength and my
10:11
Speaker 2: weaknesses are. I know how it is that I walk
10:13
Speaker 2: through the world and the impact I'm having on other people.
10:17
Speaker 2: But most people walk around with blinkers on. Yes, they
10:20
Speaker 2: see what they see and they think what they think,
10:22
Speaker 2: and they think that that is the sum of everything.
10:27
Speaker 2: And that, I think is where we need to look
10:29
Speaker 2: at fear as this signal. What is it telling you?
10:33
Speaker 2: Fear is data? It's information, That's all it is is information,
10:38
Speaker 2: but that information is translated through your emotional reaction to
10:43
Speaker 2: this and how you've developed habits and behaviors that are
10:48
Speaker 2: associated with that feeling that comes up for you. So
10:54
Speaker 2: you know, when we can sit with it and really
10:57
Speaker 2: digest what is it that it's telling, yes, then we
11:01
Speaker 2: have to do the changes. And that's why I created
11:04
Speaker 2: out of the fear word face, Explore, Act, and rise,
11:10
Speaker 2: and we can unpack that one in a moment, because.
11:13
Speaker 1: This is really a critical piece of how Yeah, absolutely well,
11:16
Speaker 1: one of the things you and I met before we
11:18
Speaker 1: recorded the podcast. I really appreciated it. I took your
11:23
Speaker 1: fear assessment, your fear Intelligence Assessment result too, and I
11:26
Speaker 1: think that again, it's data, and I think I think
11:29
Speaker 1: that's really important that you're you're sharing. Jacqueline is like,
11:32
Speaker 1: don't you know we can't do anything about it if
11:34
Speaker 1: we're not looking at it like you're saying. That's what
11:37
Speaker 1: I'm hearing is like you you're maybe acting out of
11:40
Speaker 1: fear and you don't even realize like how much power
11:43
Speaker 1: it has over you. Now, if you're aware of it,
11:45
Speaker 1: then you can do something about it. And I think
11:47
Speaker 1: you know, offering that was thank you for sharing that
11:50
Speaker 1: for me, because I think it was really powerful to
11:52
Speaker 1: look at and say, Okay, how healthy am I from
11:55
Speaker 1: an a perspective anything. If those of you that are
11:58
Speaker 1: listening in here lean in little bit more, Jacqueline's going
12:01
Speaker 1: to share some more with you, because you will be
12:03
Speaker 1: so much more powerful and empowered if you will to
12:06
Speaker 1: help not only yourself. And this is kind of what
12:08
Speaker 1: I would get into, is you know, I work with teams, leaderships, organization, Jacqueline,
12:13
Speaker 1: because it's not just me personally, but it's like, you know,
12:15
Speaker 1: when this fear roots itself, like you're talking about, it's
12:20
Speaker 1: affects the organization, affects the group that I'm in, and
12:23
Speaker 1: so I think, you know, if we're making decisions from
12:26
Speaker 1: that place to me, that's just it perpetuates and probably
12:31
Speaker 1: cascades into other people's fears and feeds it into that too.
12:34
Speaker 2: Well, you may rate a very important point. And one
12:36
Speaker 2: of the clients I'm working with right now, he said,
12:38
Speaker 2: Right at the very beginning, he said, I'm realizing that
12:41
Speaker 2: my fear is impacting my team members because it's tied
12:44
Speaker 2: into his insecurities, micromanagement, making assumptions, using blame and judgment
12:53
Speaker 2: when we're criticizing other people who may not deliver it
12:56
Speaker 2: for us. There's a variety of ways not allowing people
13:00
Speaker 2: to speak up. And frequently when fear is active, people
13:03
Speaker 2: don't speak up, and so when you don't speak up,
13:07
Speaker 2: you're overlooked. I had another person in a workshop recently
13:12
Speaker 2: who was very quiet, and I said, so, what is
13:15
Speaker 2: your greatest fear? And he said, I don't speak up.
13:19
Speaker 2: And then his boss was in the room, and his
13:21
Speaker 2: boss said, he has so much to offer, but he
13:24
Speaker 2: will not engage if there's there's a conversation around the room. Now,
13:29
Speaker 2: anyone listening to this right now, I bet you can
13:32
Speaker 2: recognize yourself in that one, which is you might be
13:34
Speaker 2: sitting there thinking, yeah, that idea is not going to work,
13:37
Speaker 2: or that idea is worth exploring, but I'm not going
13:41
Speaker 2: to open up my mouth because I might have something
13:44
Speaker 2: stupid to say. And you know, I can certainly relate
13:48
Speaker 2: to that, because I had many times in conferences, for instance,
13:50
Speaker 2: where they say, you know, what questions do you have?
13:53
Speaker 2: And I would have questions, but then I would think,
13:55
Speaker 2: if I go up to that mic and I asked
13:57
Speaker 2: that question, people are going to go, that's it really
14:00
Speaker 2: stupid question to ask, not obvious. And so that self judgment,
14:06
Speaker 2: that that criticism inside that really is a loud voice
14:11
Speaker 2: and and it diminishes us in a big, big way.
14:15
Speaker 2: And that's that's something that I really do fight against
14:18
Speaker 2: and I've had to fight against in my own life.
14:21
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I can. I can relate to you, Jacqueline,
14:23
Speaker 1: what you're talking about of. You know, if we get
14:27
Speaker 1: in this place of as leaders or positions of influence,
14:30
Speaker 1: and we can be good and it can be bad.
14:33
Speaker 1: And to your point, where like you said, people are
14:34
Speaker 1: not speaking up. They're undeveloped because they can't fully you
14:38
Speaker 1: talk with each other. You feel like you have to
14:41
Speaker 1: control everything. You can't step away, create bottlenecks. You know,
14:46
Speaker 1: it's it's an unhealthy situation. And and and I was
14:52
Speaker 1: just talking with another person yesterday, Jacqueline. And then one
14:55
Speaker 1: of their core values that this is fascinating company, is said,
14:58
Speaker 1: we want to send actually put it in almost of
15:01
Speaker 1: poor value, like we want you to be able to
15:03
Speaker 1: talk through these things. And because if you go them
15:05
Speaker 1: into the sending means you're not coming from a place
15:08
Speaker 1: of fear, You're coming in place of empowerment that you
15:09
Speaker 1: can come and talk with that. So I think by
15:12
Speaker 1: doing this work, and I'm excited for you to break
15:14
Speaker 1: this acronym down that you use. But by doing this work,
15:17
Speaker 1: to me, it's like, wow, we're all going to be
15:19
Speaker 1: healthier in the long run and we can we can
15:21
Speaker 1: lean into this a little bit more and it's okay,
15:24
Speaker 1: like you said, look at the signal, but it's just
15:26
Speaker 1: a signal, and now what can you do with it?
15:28
Speaker 1: So I'd love you to kind of break down you
15:30
Speaker 1: have your acronym, your acronym, and not a little bit
15:32
Speaker 1: more about that, about how we can go forward and
15:35
Speaker 1: not get so stuck here.
15:38
Speaker 2: Well, you're talking about psychological safety in the workplace, yes,
15:42
Speaker 2: and if people don't feel safe to open up, and
15:46
Speaker 2: if people are seeking too much permission to add their
15:50
Speaker 2: ten cents worth to whatever it is going on, or
15:53
Speaker 2: the leader themselves is such a controller and you see
15:56
Speaker 2: that a lot where you know they don't empower the
15:59
Speaker 2: people around them to speak up. That becomes problematic right there.
16:05
Speaker 2: The great leaders are empathetic. The great leaders are the
16:08
Speaker 2: ones who say, tell me what you think they're The
16:11
Speaker 2: great leaders are the ones who say, I don't know.
16:14
Speaker 2: And the vulnerability involved in that is also part of
16:17
Speaker 2: the psychological safety piece. Is like, I'm giving you permission
16:22
Speaker 2: to be you in the room. How many people wear
16:24
Speaker 2: a masked to come to work? You know, they leave
16:26
Speaker 2: the house and then they show up at work as
16:28
Speaker 2: this person that they're supposed to be when they're hired
16:31
Speaker 2: for a job, and then they go home at the
16:35
Speaker 2: end of the day and they do nothing but bit
16:36
Speaker 2: your moan about all the things that were wrong in
16:40
Speaker 2: the workplace. And yeah, because and there's no safety there.
16:44
Speaker 2: But to the point you're asking about, here's the acronym
16:48
Speaker 2: the F and fear stands for face it. And that's
16:51
Speaker 2: the piece about look at the information, look at the
16:55
Speaker 2: stories that are running your life. So if you're afraid
16:58
Speaker 2: to speak up, what's the judgment that you're having about
17:02
Speaker 2: yourself in that particular piece, if you're afraid to make
17:08
Speaker 2: a presentation because you'll be judged on how good or
17:12
Speaker 2: bad that presentation is, You've got to be able to
17:16
Speaker 2: look at that and go, Okay, so do I have
17:18
Speaker 2: evidence that I'm really not capable, that I'm really not worthy?
17:22
Speaker 2: In fact, if you put the word not in front
17:24
Speaker 2: of any self descriptive adjective. You are dealing with fear
17:29
Speaker 2: very syal. So look at the narrative, the face it piece,
17:34
Speaker 2: which is where's the word not in there? And that's
17:38
Speaker 2: a very simple way to analysze right there. The next
17:43
Speaker 2: piece of it is explore. So if you've identified that
17:46
Speaker 2: there's the conversation that I'm having, how do you want
17:51
Speaker 2: to change that? So the exploring part is get curious.
17:54
Speaker 2: Where did that begin? Where do I feel that that's
17:58
Speaker 2: an important part of my identity? Inact? You know, if
18:02
Speaker 2: we're really looking at what's our identity, most people don't
18:05
Speaker 2: do that deep receive reflection in order to find that out,
18:08
Speaker 2: Which is why if Your Intelligence is an important book,
18:11
Speaker 2: because it gives you lots of ways in which to
18:13
Speaker 2: do that. The point that I'm making here on the
18:17
Speaker 2: explore thing is stay curious, to stay open. Now, once
18:21
Speaker 2: you've defined a different narrative for yourself, I e. I
18:24
Speaker 2: do not wish to perpetuate this thinking and behavior any longer.
18:29
Speaker 2: I don't change habits. That becomes the act piece of
18:32
Speaker 2: the fear word. So the act pieces I've recognized it,
18:36
Speaker 2: I know what needs to change, And the rise piece
18:40
Speaker 2: is about being curious or courageous enough to meet the
18:45
Speaker 2: challenge and push yourself beyond your comfort zone. Because here's
18:49
Speaker 2: the thing. Nothing grows in the comfort zone. And the
18:53
Speaker 2: idea of being in safety or having control of your
18:56
Speaker 2: life is an illusion. And trust me, I'm a recover
19:00
Speaker 2: we're in control freak. So you know, my kids still
19:03
Speaker 2: tell me you're still a control freak. But that's part
19:08
Speaker 2: of my need for safety. And because there is that
19:12
Speaker 2: piece in there, we have to acknowledge is an illusion.
19:15
Speaker 2: It can all change in a heartbeat, absolutely, And yet
19:18
Speaker 2: we live our lives with this need for certainty, yes
19:22
Speaker 2: we do, you know, how about we live our lives
19:24
Speaker 2: according to uncertainty. The stoics made a whole philosophy out
19:29
Speaker 2: of it, you know, And it's like, where's the opportunity here?
19:33
Speaker 2: And that's where you get back to, you know, if
19:36
Speaker 2: you're exploring, for instance, where's the opportunity here for me
19:40
Speaker 2: to be different, to do different, to give myself differently
19:44
Speaker 2: to the world in which I'm living in. And not
19:47
Speaker 2: only does it affect your work, by the way, it's
19:49
Speaker 2: all about your family and all the relationships you're having.
19:54
Speaker 2: You know, why do we have divorce? We have divorce
19:57
Speaker 2: because people aren't communicating properly. Are they're afraid to communicate properly.
20:02
Speaker 2: I'm having that conversation with a client right now, you know,
20:05
Speaker 2: can you speak honestly to what you're really feeling and
20:08
Speaker 2: what you're dealing with? There's a fear the right there,
20:12
Speaker 2: no what will happen? Well, my life will fall apart.
20:17
Speaker 2: So it falls apart? So will you rebuild it? Yes?
20:21
Speaker 2: You know. One of the biggest fears I hear is
20:24
Speaker 2: fear of failure. You hear this a lot. What's your
20:27
Speaker 2: biggest fear? Fear of failure? Okay? How many times have
20:30
Speaker 2: failed in your life? A lot?
20:33
Speaker 1: A lot?
20:34
Speaker 2: Many times have you succeeded in your life? A lot?
20:38
Speaker 2: And if you look at the failures, what would the
20:40
Speaker 2: lessons learn during the failures? And did you pivot to
20:44
Speaker 2: something else along the way? I mean, as I said
20:47
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, I lost a huge chunk of
20:49
Speaker 2: change that was meant to be the rest of our lives.
20:53
Speaker 3: And when we looked at that, was like, well, what
20:57
Speaker 3: are you going to do now? So I could have
20:59
Speaker 3: you know, gone into a hole and decided you might
21:03
Speaker 3: as well just give it all up and go away.
21:05
Speaker 3: And some people do they commit suicide?
21:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just looked at it and I went, okay,
21:10
Speaker 2: so what do you need to do next? And that's
21:13
Speaker 2: that's the only word you need to use when there's failure,
21:17
Speaker 2: because after all, it's very simple. It's an expectation of
21:21
Speaker 2: choice or a decision that did not go the way
21:23
Speaker 2: you had planned. End of story. There is nothing more
21:27
Speaker 2: to say about failure. And of course the biggest failure,
21:30
Speaker 2: as we know, is the failure to try.
21:32
Speaker 1: M You've you've packed so many, so much things here.
21:36
Speaker 1: I want to go back a little bit. What the
21:38
Speaker 1: fear acronym? So the face one is what do you see?
21:42
Speaker 1: Because I think this is so important. You got to
21:44
Speaker 1: slow down and just face it and speak a little
21:47
Speaker 1: bit to that, Jack, because that's I hear you saying,
21:49
Speaker 1: this is a lifestyle. Now you you you're going through
21:52
Speaker 1: this regularly, you're facing it, you're exploring it, you're you're
21:56
Speaker 1: taking action, and you're rising from it. So that to me,
21:58
Speaker 1: I'm just hearing this is a way of living and being.
22:01
Speaker 1: But for the people that haven't, you know, like when
22:04
Speaker 1: you're learning to ride a bike, it takes a while,
22:05
Speaker 1: it's all awkward, right, and getting them to talk. Maybe
22:09
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just talk there a little bit here, just
22:10
Speaker 1: to that facing, like so that they because in that moment,
22:14
Speaker 1: it's like when you get all freaked out, it's hard
22:16
Speaker 1: to like, you know, heart's pounding, You've got this, but
22:19
Speaker 1: let that fear kind of go. Like it's like a
22:22
Speaker 1: wave that way. I look at it as a wave
22:24
Speaker 1: crashing nomady, it's going to pass. Just hold whole still
22:27
Speaker 1: for a minute.
22:28
Speaker 2: You know, you speak a pause between a reaction and
22:31
Speaker 2: a response, and I need to say that really clearly.
22:35
Speaker 2: There's a pause between reaction and response. And frequently we're
22:41
Speaker 2: in reaction and in default mode because let's fae it.
22:45
Speaker 2: Our brains are patterned seekers. So if your pattern is
22:48
Speaker 2: always going to be in reactive mode, then you have
22:52
Speaker 2: to start noticing, oh there you go again, yes, and
22:57
Speaker 2: take the moment to go okay, so you want to
23:00
Speaker 2: do this differently, So I have to take a moment.
23:03
Speaker 2: I have to take a pause, and in that ninety
23:06
Speaker 2: second pause and I always recommend about ninety seconds before
23:10
Speaker 2: you make a decision on whether this is right, wrong,
23:12
Speaker 2: or indifferent. It feels like forever, you know, it's like
23:16
Speaker 2: ninety seconds, my god, you know, ten seconds feels like
23:20
Speaker 2: long enough. Yeah, you know, but you have to take
23:23
Speaker 2: the breath. You have to actually take the breath of
23:26
Speaker 2: going Okay, this is what I'm feeling now. If I'm
23:33
Speaker 2: in this journey and I'm actually committed to this process,
23:39
Speaker 2: this is what I'm feeling. I'm not going to make
23:42
Speaker 2: any decisions on it right now. As to excuse me,
23:46
Speaker 2: my dog's just barked. I'd let you. Absolutely, we have
23:52
Speaker 2: someone that front door, and of course she hears something
23:55
Speaker 2: in front door, she decides to.
23:57
Speaker 1: Go here too, Like my goodness, you know there's a visitor.
24:02
Speaker 2: But the point I'm making here is take the pause.
24:05
Speaker 2: You know, I did get the door. But this is
24:11
Speaker 2: a life journey. There's no there there on this thing,
24:15
Speaker 2: you know, And it's it's a commitment that you have
24:18
Speaker 2: to make to yourself. Magic bullets. When people come to
24:22
Speaker 2: me to work with me, I tell them right off
24:24
Speaker 2: the bat there are no magic bullets. But if you're
24:27
Speaker 2: willing to take the journey. And Joseph Campbell talks about
24:30
Speaker 2: it as the hero's journey, know that, you know. So
24:34
Speaker 2: it's kind of like we're going on a quest, on
24:38
Speaker 2: a quest to understand what is it that's driving us.
24:42
Speaker 2: What is it that that creates the life that makes
24:45
Speaker 2: us dissatisfied with life? What is it that makes my
24:50
Speaker 2: relationships turbulent? What is it that makes me choose jobs
24:55
Speaker 2: and relationships that are not actually working for me?
24:59
Speaker 1: Yes?
24:59
Speaker 2: You know, now these are the kind of stories that
25:02
Speaker 2: we want to be investigating. And that's of course on
25:05
Speaker 2: the explore side of things. And there are no easy
25:09
Speaker 2: answers on this. And you know, my work is replete
25:12
Speaker 2: with many, many different questions and many reflection points. I mean,
25:16
Speaker 2: the entire Fear Intelligence book is tied up with that,
25:20
Speaker 2: plus a workbook that's available to you too. But when
25:24
Speaker 2: you really take the time to truly do the investigation
25:28
Speaker 2: and you're willing to commit to the changes necessary, you
25:31
Speaker 2: have to take actions. It's not enough just to think
25:34
Speaker 2: about it. Yes, you know, it's you know, we can
25:37
Speaker 2: think about things that look coushok, come home, but you know, ultimately,
25:42
Speaker 2: what steps are you willing to take? And many times
25:45
Speaker 2: when we're looking at fear, we think of it as
25:48
Speaker 2: this chasm, this massive, you know, drop off point. You know,
25:52
Speaker 2: if I decide to change, what you find out is
25:55
Speaker 2: it's actually a couple of steps down because the other
25:58
Speaker 2: thing of this is you're not going to change the
26:01
Speaker 2: whole elephant all at once. Choose one specific thing that
26:05
Speaker 2: you think has been getting in the way of you
26:08
Speaker 2: being your best self, because ultimately this is what it's
26:10
Speaker 2: all about. You can be your best self. And if
26:14
Speaker 2: you're not going to be your best self, well then
26:17
Speaker 2: just keep doing what you're doing. You know, there you go.
26:20
Speaker 2: But if you it, yeah, right, but if you're committed
26:23
Speaker 2: to this process of change, and change is not easy
26:26
Speaker 2: because we like that certainty again, you know, and there
26:31
Speaker 2: it is. I mean, at this stage of my life,
26:35
Speaker 2: you know, I really could care less whether people like
26:37
Speaker 2: what I do or like me or don't like me.
26:40
Speaker 2: But if you'd ask me that question ten years ago,
26:42
Speaker 2: or maybe even five years ago, I would have gone, well, yeah,
26:45
Speaker 2: it's still important to be validated. And now I'm like, yeah,
26:49
Speaker 2: well this is who it is. You know.
26:51
Speaker 1: That's why we're here. We want your perspective. And I
26:53
Speaker 1: think I love the way you break this down, Jacqueline,
26:56
Speaker 1: of like exploring and I feel like the power of
26:59
Speaker 1: your your book, the assessment. But I think because the
27:04
Speaker 1: work that you and I do, it's that human interaction too.
27:06
Speaker 1: When you're, like you said, you're talking with the people
27:08
Speaker 1: that really want to do this work, really want to
27:11
Speaker 1: dive deep. The more you deal with this, like you said,
27:13
Speaker 1: you're kind of rooting these things out like weeds in
27:16
Speaker 1: a garden, I like to say, And I like how
27:19
Speaker 1: you said, exploring, like is this actually even true or
27:24
Speaker 1: maybe it's partially true? You know, what is it? What
27:27
Speaker 1: is this? And I'm teasing this apart. And then what
27:30
Speaker 1: you said too is like have action. I was just
27:32
Speaker 1: meeting with a client yesterday and she's like, we meet
27:35
Speaker 1: every week on and things, and she's just like, I
27:37
Speaker 1: could probably do this on my own, but the fact
27:39
Speaker 1: that I have to come every week and meet with
27:41
Speaker 1: you and my team members and we're going through and
27:43
Speaker 1: we're breaking it down just helps me. And I think
27:45
Speaker 1: we're going to I think we lull ourselves, like you're
27:47
Speaker 1: saying sometimes, I think, but maybe we're thinking about it,
27:49
Speaker 1: we're doing it, but we're not really doing it and
27:51
Speaker 1: taking the action. And so having somebody like yourself that
27:55
Speaker 1: comes alongside and says, here, we're actually going to make
27:57
Speaker 1: the move. And I like to say, even more than she,
28:00
Speaker 1: I would say, part of it is transform of like
28:03
Speaker 1: we were this, and we're becoming something different, so we're
28:06
Speaker 1: not you know, I'm not taking I'm sure for those
28:09
Speaker 1: of you are watching, I'm holding a pin, I'm changing
28:10
Speaker 1: the direction of the pen. The pen is still the pen.
28:12
Speaker 1: But if I took this and turned it into something else,
28:15
Speaker 1: like a caterpillar to a butterfly. And to your point
28:18
Speaker 1: what you said, Jacqueline, there is challenge in that, there's
28:21
Speaker 1: a transformation process, but when you do that work, I'm
28:25
Speaker 1: seeing the benefit of being on the other side of that.
28:28
Speaker 1: Like you said that stepping over that what you thought
28:30
Speaker 1: was a kasm necessarily or whatnots still something you had
28:33
Speaker 1: to go through, but so you're so much better on
28:35
Speaker 1: the other side of it.
28:37
Speaker 2: Well, how many times have you had an experience where
28:39
Speaker 2: you worried about what was going to be the outcome?
28:42
Speaker 2: Or are you worried about what somebody else was going
28:44
Speaker 2: to say? Are you worried about you know, whatever it
28:47
Speaker 2: might have been, And then you get to the other
28:49
Speaker 2: side of it and you go, shoot, why the hell
28:51
Speaker 2: was I worried? Right? Because it was nowhere near as
28:55
Speaker 2: bad as you thought it was going to be. Right,
28:57
Speaker 2: and we're all guilty of that for sure, And again,
29:00
Speaker 2: that overthinking. I mean, one of the things I will
29:03
Speaker 2: say to my executives is, you know how many of
29:05
Speaker 2: you overthink things? And you've got a room full of
29:10
Speaker 2: twenty executives and they've all put up their hands yep,
29:14
Speaker 2: you know. Okay, So where's that overthinking getting you? Lack
29:18
Speaker 2: of sleep, inability to make decisions, Yes, putting other people
29:26
Speaker 2: before you, Yes, the fear of being judged is inadequate, incapable,
29:35
Speaker 2: whatever the case may be. Yes, all of that is there.
29:40
Speaker 2: The fear of loss, the fear of rejection. I have
29:42
Speaker 2: four professional fears. The fear of inadequacy, the fear of rejection,
29:46
Speaker 2: the fear of uncertainty, and the fear of loss. All
29:50
Speaker 2: four of those are operating in your professional life, whether
29:54
Speaker 2: you like or not. Yes, now, and these are really
29:58
Speaker 2: the big things. And then people will so you know, well,
30:00
Speaker 2: I've got the imposter syndrome, which is a term I
30:04
Speaker 2: actually do not like because simply all it is is
30:08
Speaker 2: lack of confidence, self doubt. That's what that is all about.
30:14
Speaker 2: And oh, I'm just waiting to be found out that
30:16
Speaker 2: I'm faking it. Well, that's because that's how you feel
30:19
Speaker 2: about yourself. You're making it you're not taking credibility for yourself,
30:25
Speaker 2: you're not taking authority and ownership of yourself. That's a
30:28
Speaker 2: big deal. And then I will ask my audiences how
30:31
Speaker 2: many of you think you're really self aware? And you
30:35
Speaker 2: get a few hands going up, and I go, okay,
30:38
Speaker 2: so let me give you a stat on that, which
30:40
Speaker 2: is only ten to fifteen percent of people are truly
30:43
Speaker 2: self aware. Eighty percent or eighty five percent of people
30:47
Speaker 2: think they know who they are, but they've never taken
30:50
Speaker 2: the time to find out.
30:52
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you're right, yeah, you and I talked about
30:55
Speaker 1: this before we recorded the podcast. Why I wanted to
30:57
Speaker 1: have it on here because I use some different tools
31:00
Speaker 1: based ones that you are getting at, but same thing.
31:02
Speaker 1: And this is, like you're saying, a lifelong journey. This
31:05
Speaker 1: is not like, oh I can just do this one
31:07
Speaker 1: thing or read a book. You said, you've been doing
31:09
Speaker 1: this work for decades and like, and I think we
31:14
Speaker 1: we shed, we shed some of the things that don't
31:16
Speaker 1: fit us anymore. That's not truly us. Like you just said,
31:18
Speaker 1: five years ago, if you asked you might I would
31:21
Speaker 1: have been saying I need the validation. Now I don't.
31:24
Speaker 1: And so there's this power in this journey, this continuum,
31:27
Speaker 1: and I think it's exciting because it's empowering and you're why,
31:31
Speaker 1: like like fear the last word, are the rising, Like
31:34
Speaker 1: we're rising up through this in what a better place
31:37
Speaker 1: to be? What a when a world? We're recording this
31:39
Speaker 1: at the end of March, you're twenty twenty six, when
31:41
Speaker 1: there is a lot of uncertainty in the world, and
31:44
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe you know this is the most uncertanty.
31:47
Speaker 1: I don't know. But in the case of like what
31:49
Speaker 1: can we do about that? We can live in the fear.
31:50
Speaker 1: We can worry like that, let that consume us, or
31:54
Speaker 1: we could say, you know, what, what do I have?
31:57
Speaker 1: Like I'm aware of what I can do in this situation.
31:59
Speaker 1: So Jacqueline, Yeah, well that's the whole idea.
32:02
Speaker 2: At the end of the day. I mean, you know,
32:04
Speaker 2: if your intelligence is a term that I've coined, that
32:07
Speaker 2: it doesn't exist anywhere else. And so I look at
32:11
Speaker 2: this as terms of if we're going to be smart
32:14
Speaker 2: about the fears that are running our lives, and if
32:16
Speaker 2: we're going to be smart about needing to change, and
32:20
Speaker 2: if we're going to be smart about making that commitment
32:23
Speaker 2: to that change, understanding that it's a journey. There's no
32:27
Speaker 2: there there. You'll get to a certain there, and then
32:30
Speaker 2: there's another there beyond that. So it is a lifelong piece,
32:35
Speaker 2: you know. And I like to say, you're not done
32:37
Speaker 2: until there's a pine box and it's going out the
32:39
Speaker 2: door and you're in it, you know, and in which
32:42
Speaker 2: case you know it's over. We're done. But if you
32:46
Speaker 2: commit yourself to the process of change throughout your lifetime,
32:50
Speaker 2: the benefits are extraordinary. I mean, I see it. In
32:53
Speaker 2: one generation, I have changed what family means. I have
32:57
Speaker 2: four kids and three grand grandkids at this point in time,
33:01
Speaker 2: and they are raising their families and living their lives
33:05
Speaker 2: in ways that I never could have imagined when I
33:08
Speaker 2: was their age. And I was thinking, I've seen to
33:11
Speaker 2: my husband last night. Our youngest is thirty five, my
33:14
Speaker 2: oldest is fifty one this coming month, and you know,
33:19
Speaker 2: you just kind of look at that and you go,
33:22
Speaker 2: how did how did I manage this? How did I
33:24
Speaker 2: manage this? Because they're all living in different places, they're
33:27
Speaker 2: all running their life successfully, and as I said, now
33:30
Speaker 2: some of them are having their own children and doing
33:34
Speaker 2: a different job of parenting than what I did. I mean,
33:37
Speaker 2: that made so many mistakes. I have these conversations about parenting,
33:41
Speaker 2: which is another fear based piece right there. You know,
33:45
Speaker 2: I mean none of us are perfect parents, and all
33:48
Speaker 2: of us will have to answer for something that we
33:50
Speaker 2: didn't do right with our kids. So you know, too
33:54
Speaker 2: many parents want to do it perfectly and we've got
33:57
Speaker 2: to get it right. Yeah, you'll never get it right
34:00
Speaker 2: because you're dealing with personalities and your kids will grow
34:02
Speaker 2: up with their fears and they're insecurities, and it's just nature.
34:06
Speaker 2: It's it's the part of living life. As I said,
34:11
Speaker 2: nothing is guaranteed. There is no certainty in life, and
34:14
Speaker 2: so we just do the best we can at the
34:16
Speaker 2: end of the day.
34:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I what I hear you saying, Jacqueline again,
34:20
Speaker 1: you're leading from what you you live. You are showing
34:23
Speaker 1: that you're taking the knowledge that this all this wisdom
34:26
Speaker 1: that you've gained, and you're blessing those you're being You're
34:29
Speaker 1: you're you're passing on and creating a legacy of h
34:32
Speaker 1: I say, sometimes we can be a blessing or we
34:34
Speaker 1: can be a curse to others if you will, And
34:36
Speaker 1: so you think you're being a blessing of like Okay,
34:38
Speaker 1: let's go. This is your next generation because we can break.
34:41
Speaker 1: Like you said, you could break the chain of how
34:43
Speaker 1: things have been. You talked about very early on that
34:45
Speaker 1: you saw the cycle where you grew up and you're like, no,
34:48
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna I'm gonna break that cycle.
34:50
Speaker 1: I don't there's no reason for that to continue on.
34:53
Speaker 1: But it took effort, energy, focus. You've done this work
34:56
Speaker 1: for a long time and I'm so grateful you're here
34:58
Speaker 1: helping others are listening in to this podcast. I know
35:02
Speaker 1: we're getting to the end of the podcast, so I
35:03
Speaker 1: wanted to give you an opportunity. By the way, everybody
35:06
Speaker 1: that's listening, please you guys are going to connect with Jacqueline.
35:08
Speaker 1: We're on on LinkedIn and I'm gonna put all in
35:10
Speaker 1: the show notes how you can find out her book,
35:12
Speaker 1: her tat Ax, all that good stuff, because you will
35:15
Speaker 1: will want to definitely spend some more time with this
35:18
Speaker 1: and improve your fear intelligence. But Jacqueline, as as we're
35:21
Speaker 1: wrapping up the podcast, somebody who's been listening to this
35:24
Speaker 1: and going through this and there's a lot of great information,
35:26
Speaker 1: what would you encourage them to consider or do or
35:29
Speaker 1: take action after they after they listen to this podcast today.
35:33
Speaker 2: So the first thing I'm always about questions. You know,
35:36
Speaker 2: people say I'm looking for answers, and I go, no,
35:38
Speaker 2: you're looking for better questions.
35:39
Speaker 1: Yes.
35:40
Speaker 2: The question I want to ask your your viewers listeners
35:43
Speaker 2: is this, what decision are you avoiding right now? And
35:50
Speaker 2: let that sit for a moment. What decision are you
35:53
Speaker 2: avoiding right now? And then look at at what the
35:57
Speaker 2: circumstances of that are, and then ask yourself a very
36:01
Speaker 2: simple question, what is my lack of decision costing me?
36:06
Speaker 2: And it can be your own individual life, it could
36:09
Speaker 2: be your organization, it can be anything in your life.
36:12
Speaker 2: But that is a critical question because if we're avoiding
36:16
Speaker 2: something and making it, not making a decision on something,
36:20
Speaker 2: there is some fear lurking in the background, and it
36:24
Speaker 2: can cover a myriad of different opportunities to consider. But
36:29
Speaker 2: that's the big question. What decision are you avoiding right now?
36:32
Speaker 2: And what is it costing you? Wow?
36:35
Speaker 1: So powerful. I hope you guys will listen and lean
36:37
Speaker 1: into that. Jacqueline, thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
36:41
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, this has just been a
36:44
Speaker 1: wonderful conversation, and I hope people are encouraged to take
36:46
Speaker 1: action and recognize now that this fear doesn't have to
36:49
Speaker 1: overtake their life, but it's a signal and that they can
36:51
Speaker 1: be empowered. And again we'll put all the resources in
36:55
Speaker 1: our show notes. You guys can make sure you connect
36:57
Speaker 1: with Jacqueline. Check out the book, check out the ted
36:59
Speaker 1: X talk Jacqueline, Thank you so much for being here
37:01
Speaker 1: with us.
37:02
Speaker 2: Thank you, David. It's truly a pleasure, wonderful you.
37:06
Speaker 1: Of course, we all love you guys. When you like, subscribe,
37:09
Speaker 1: share this with others in your world, leave a comment.
37:13
Speaker 1: We'll make sure Jacqueline gets that and come back in
37:15
Speaker 1: our next episode of the Business Roundtable podcast. We so
37:18
Speaker 1: appreciate you being here. Thanks everybody for listening and tuning in.
37:21
Speaker 1: Take care,