Latest / Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano / Neurodivergence: The Essence of Inclusion

Transcript

Neurodivergence: The Essence of Inclusion · Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano

0:03
This is Your Pain Game podcast where we talk about the game of living in
0:07
and with chronic pain and trauma get into the heart of how to heal.
0:12
I am your host Lindsay Soprano. On the show, I plan on discussing
0:18
with doctors, chronic pain patients, holistic practitioners, loved ones, and anybody
0:23
that is interested in having their voice heard. In the chronic pain and trauma
0:27
world that we live in, we all experience and interact with the world a
0:40
little bit differently. And I often wonder why I am the way I am,
0:47
How I respond to stressors in ways that others do not, How I
0:51
respond to sexuality the way that others may not. How I have a photographic
0:56
memory, but I can't remember where my phone is, and and most of
1:00
the time it's either in the refrigerator or next to the dog cookies. And
1:04
this isn't going to like pat myself on the back or anything right now.
1:07
But this crazy bitch over here accomplishes more in one day than some people do
1:12
in two weeks. And I have no fucking idea how it's possible that I
1:18
don't. I am one hundred percent sleep deprived, and I have been since
1:22
I was nine. I live in physical and sometimes debilitating chronic pain twenty four
1:26
hours a day. I barely eat a morsel. I live on CBD and
1:32
THC and loop in a little prosecco while I can as well. Right,
1:36
And I've lit I've had a lifetime of trauma which has led to physical disabilities
1:41
as well. Right, So we've just all winning things here. But I'm
1:45
pretty damn successful. And I show up every day unless there's just an absolute
1:49
act of God that comes in play. Right, And I've always said that
1:52
I wanted to donate my brain to science when I die, because what happens
1:56
in this noodle of mine every day to accomplish what I do should not be
2:00
is the cly pilossible. And as a successful business owner for almost twenty four
2:05
years working from homelind you, I could never ever work for anyone but myself,
2:10
and certainly not in an environment that I would have to constantly interact with
2:15
people that I don't want to smell. They're fucking lean cuisine in the microwaves,
2:21
Like, no, that's not for me. Sit in long ass meetings
2:23
with PowerPoint presentations also not my jam. And a lot of that is because,
2:30
oh I don't know what. We're going to talk about it a little
2:31
bit today. I am incredibly ocd I can't possibly figure out why people don't
2:36
see things the way that I do on most days. But I consider myself
2:39
to be pretty light spirited and funny, and so what in the world explains
2:45
all of this? Right? Because I'm kind of tired of feeling a little
2:47
bit nutso, but my guest today makes me feel not so crazy. Wonder
2:53
word, Oh, you're welcome me crazy In just a moment, one word
2:59
could me neurodiversity. And that's the two of us. So let's talk about
3:02
it. Let's talk about why I'm so very special, So let's talk about
3:09
Let's talk about our differences and that even in the midst of difference, we
3:14
can still completely rocket. So, without further ado, I'm going to bring
3:19
another crazy ass woman into our life today. Catherine McCord i is good here
3:25
and welcome to the Pain Game right now, I am so excited to ever
3:30
say that. By the way, Welcome to the Pain Game podcast is the
3:34
first time the congratulations to you. You know what, I liked it.
3:37
I thought it was a great way of pain game process. I kind of
3:39
want to know what's coming next? When you say that, it's like,
3:42
oh, is there going to be like a like Hunger Games type scenario or
3:46
like maybe we don't know what kind of slippery soope you're going to go on
3:52
today? Can I introduce you? Yes? Can I introduce you? Fine?
3:57
Fine? Catherine is the founder of the Neuroverse, a nonprofit organization dedicated
4:02
to building inclusion and elevating neurodiversity, and is a people operations entrepreneur, which
4:10
I practice saying that thirty two times, who has multiple physical and neurodiversities ranging
4:15
from mcas Google it and seizures to bipolar and OCD. So we've got all
4:21
kinds of fun stuff going on, and whether it is revolutionizing HR technology,
4:27
innovating DEI which stands for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion just in case you guys
4:30
don't know, recruiting and HR for her clients, Catherine always brings everything back
4:35
to her three missions. Actually there's four integrity, Inclusion and Innovation and p
4:42
Within ten seconds before I get on a podcast, yes literally ten and I
4:46
did clean my hands. I'd like to start talking about what neurodiversity actually is
4:50
to you and to others and what that means to you, and let's take
4:56
it from there. So in the technical definition is that you and the term
5:01
has involved. It was originally coined by an Australian sociologist named Judy Singer,
5:05
and it was just and she intended who has autism? And she intended it
5:11
to mean that difference is not a deficit and that there's nothing wrong with different
5:15
ways that people's brains process. Now it's kind of come to a smaller,
5:19
more poignant definition of meaning a medically visible and or diagnosable difference in how the
5:27
brain processes information and stimuli. So anything from like autism and ADHD dyslexia,
5:34
all of that, all the way over to PTSD epilepsy, then all the
5:40
way over to like OCD, bipolar anxiety, all of that. So basically,
5:44
anything that changes your nerve synapses, that's neurodiversity. It makes you a
5:47
little bit of a weirdo, that's neurodiversity. My personal my personal definition is
5:54
that we are we are the human octopuses and the the ultimate weirdos, but
5:59
all in the right way, right, That's that's kind of it, But
6:01
we're It just means you think differently, you process differently, and we all
6:05
do in a way, but this is in a very specific way, and
6:10
it's funny because when you have neurodiversity, you can spot the others. Neurodiversity
6:14
is freaking cool. And what's great is is that science is finally catching up,
6:18
Like you have studies freaking cool finally, like in the Nationalistitute of Health,
6:23
National Library Medicine, JOHNS. Hopkins, Harvard, et cetera, et
6:26
cetera, et cetera, that are figuring out that there are all these benefits
6:30
and great things about neurodiversity. So, yes, there can be disability.
6:32
There is disability, I know, we're going to talk about that too,
6:35
but there are also benefits because it's humans were designed to balance ourselves out.
6:40
So when this thing over here works a little fun kay, But over here
6:43
we're freaking awesome and it's really cool. It's really kind of a cool thing.
6:47
So this these what we're finding out is that these aren't things that need
6:50
to be cured. This is just how people are and it's good and they're
6:56
the reason that all these great things. Albert I'm saying, uh, Maya,
7:00
Angela, Yeah, like even comedians, there's all kinds of incredible exactly
7:09
all of these amazing, amazing actors and musicians and artists and all writers and
7:14
all of this, the Adventurers creators, I mean, all of it goes
7:16
on and on. And one of the things that's so interesting is I learned
7:21
about neurodiversity, like I don't know, a couple of years ago. Not
7:25
that he didn't know it existed, right. One of my girlfriends has an
7:28
autistic son, and and and fairly fairly autistic. I'm but man, oh
7:33
man, I mean, I don't even know what that means. You know
7:35
what I mean exactly, because I don't. He's down with Spectra, and
7:42
I love I love how she how she parented him, and how wonderful he
7:46
turned out, because now he's an adult. But anyways, it's I find
7:51
it so unbelievable because there's so many things that people thought about me and I've
7:59
not been I've not been officially diagnosed with any of this. But I want
8:03
to talk a bit, a little bit about how we get diagnosed and the
8:07
difference between actual diagnosis and self diagnosis, because I know we chatted a little
8:11
bit about that, and I am one who and a lot of people that
8:16
listen to this show have been chasing diagnosis for themselves for their entire life,
8:22
no matter what it is, whether it's neurodivergence, or whether it's their pain,
8:24
or whether it's a stomach issue, whatever, we're all chasing some kind
8:28
of fucking diagnosis. Kidding me, oh nuts, Can you talk a little
8:33
bit about that. So, first of all, I want to just say
8:37
I get it, folks, because I still have my main, my primary
8:41
neuro medical condition which causes me seizures, TIA's heart condition, all the stressed
8:46
up all stems from the same thing. These people still can't figure it out.
8:50
But we're talking like decades into this process. The start when I was
8:52
seventeen years old, and so I mean like literally decades. So I get
8:58
it. I feel you on this now. The opposite happened for me when
9:03
it came to diagnosis of my neurodiversity. They were like, Oh, this
9:05
is clearly what's wrong with you. No, clearly, clearly this is the
9:11
thing with you. Now. My parents figured out some of this before I
9:15
had a formal diagnosis. My mother was a nurse and then my father,
9:22
my father grew up with a lot of neurodiversity. So they both looked at
9:26
me and were like, oh, Okay, this little child who is like
9:31
too obsessed with this thing being done and gets into these very compulsatory behaviors.
9:35
She has OCD. That's what this is. And so they just designed their
9:39
parenting accordingly, and they're like, all right, so we're just going to
9:43
teach her how to work with that. We're going to teach her how to
9:46
function as she is naturally and how to accommodate herself, and then how to
9:48
use those things to her benefit. And that's just what they did. And
9:52
then when I developed other things neurowise, including the bipolar they did the exact
9:58
same thing. It was just genius. It was a genius approach. I've
10:03
told the two of them to write a book because I was like, I
10:05
think more parents should do that. But so diagnosis is complicated. It is
10:11
it is a journey. It is horrible, it is frustrating, and there
10:16
have been times in my life I've had to quit it and then restart it
10:18
because I needed a freaking mental health break from getting so I get it,
10:26
but on the neurodiversity side, and I will tell you the other thing that
10:28
makes it freaking hard, both on the medical side and on the mental health
10:33
side, is that up until tragically recently, like really and truly the last
10:39
decade, the medical standards were all based on men. So ladies we were
10:46
just screwed because they just didn't think, oh, well, it's going to
10:50
be different because it's a completely different body structure. I don't know why that
10:52
never occurred to them, but it didn't. So it's you know, it
10:58
was hard and so could be those reasons. There is the idea that some
11:03
people still don't put a lot of weight into certain diagnoses, even though they're
11:09
obviously in existence, like they're factually proven, but there are doctors that just
11:13
don't spend a lot of time. Also, a lot of doctors just really
11:15
aren't educated to neurodiversity in particular. It's very interesting. So a lot of
11:20
general practitioners things like that, they're actually not very educated when it comes to
11:26
these types of diagnoses, so they will not spot them, even mental health
11:30
practitioners. My sister is a child's clinician and she works with kids and helps
11:37
them work through different issues, and a child counselor, I guess I should
11:41
say, And she's talked about what little education she received on those types of
11:46
diagnoses. Now, she went out on her own and learned, but most
11:50
people probably don't. So you have to find a specialist. Let's start with
11:56
that. Find a specialist, Find somebody who actually knows and somebody who understands
12:01
the full spectrum aspect, somebody who understands the pluses, the benefits and the
12:05
disability research and find the right doctor. I do think that formal diagnosis is
12:11
important if you feel like you need something explained, if you feel like you
12:16
need to understand yourself better, if you feel like you need help communicating about
12:22
yourself to other people, because then you can use the right words. You
12:26
can also for that to It's not about labels, it's just about communicating about
12:31
yourself. These are the things you know. Here's the thing. It can
12:35
help you find community, like, oh, now I have this diagnosim,
12:37
I can go fond my peeps and so that's all really well and great.
12:41
Also, it can help you to get resources if you need them, So
12:45
if you need accommodations, if you different things like that. So even down
12:48
to things like Bose the speaker company. A lot of people don't know this.
12:52
They actually have a program to give people noise canceling headphones for free.
12:54
But you have to be able to provide documentation showing that yes, you have
12:58
this dietgnosis, and it's kind of like an accommodation process basically like the paperwork
13:03
that you fill out. So if you want to be able to get accommodations
13:05
you might need to also have a formal diagnosis for that. So and companies,
13:09
it's crappy that they do it, but they can require that you provide
13:13
your diagnosis to give an accommodation are not diagnosed, but specifics about your disability,
13:20
not your diagnosis specifically. But so it does help to have the formal
13:24
aspects completed. It does. It just helps, not required though. So
13:31
my husband found out because the doctor accidentally announced it to him thinking he already
13:35
knew that he was on the autism side trum, but accidentally without it a
13:45
few years ago, well into his adulthood, well into his thirties, and
13:50
researched it and went, oh okay, and then other people in his family
13:52
all got an actual diagnosis and they all kind of match, you know what
13:56
I mean. So it was like, oh okay, but he doesn't I
14:00
feel the need to get the formal diagnosis now because he's like, well,
14:03
we know that's what it is. He's like, I fit it to a
14:05
t. He goes, My family's all got, you know, all has
14:07
is on the spectrum and he goes, and I don't feel I would gain
14:11
anything from me, he says. I already know how to take care of
14:13
myself. I already know how to do these different things. But what he
14:16
did do is he went through and started connecting to other people in the community
14:20
and got better language so that now he can communicate better about himself to others.
14:26
And that's if I like that a lot in regards to communication, because
14:30
I think one of the things that has popped up with me and researching this
14:33
and listening to and people actually saying not unlike what you're what happened with your
14:39
hobby was just like, oh, you are totally on the spectrum. I
14:43
was like, I am. I had no idea. But then when I
14:48
started, I know, and then I'm like, thank you. And then
14:52
I kind of started going down this slippery slope reading more about it and looking
14:56
at my behavior and how I operate, and my even behavior when I was
15:01
a teager. Some of of course, which was stuff with that happened was
15:03
like traumatic, stuff that would obviously create some form of behavior, but there
15:09
were other things that didn't make any sense. And as I as I keep
15:13
going through my world over here, and I keep, like I started the
15:16
show with, I'm I don't know how I do all of these things feeling
15:20
the way that I do, and it's like it's nuts. And so when
15:26
you talk about how it presents itself differently in women than men, how does
15:31
it and do you know why? Oh? Yeah, so our hormones are
15:35
so vastly different that it just completely changes how we present. And so certain
15:41
women are by nature more like cuddly social creatures. So with for instance,
15:50
just using the autism diagnosis, this is every single diagnosis has its own thing,
15:54
but sticking to autism, the women will often be a lot more sociable.
16:00
They'll still be relatively cuddly, although they're usually very particular about how they're
16:03
touched. So it's like you could touch like I like to be touched like
16:07
this, Oh, but don't do that. That's too much touching or that's
16:10
for too long. That yeah, like everybody touched me. And then and
16:15
then there are people that it's it's different. Things are soothing to them,
16:21
right, So it's just the different kinds of social aspects are very different.
16:26
A lot of women that are on the spectrum are better about eye contact than
16:32
the males are things like that, just because we're different. But the brain
16:37
is actually still very you know, this process is very similar in terms of
16:41
the core processing features. And what's what's so funny to me is is that
16:48
those same women they still miss the social cues, so they're very sociable,
16:51
but then they do things that just seems so off. What did you say
16:56
that? And what did you do that for? That would not throw way
17:00
to say that, but okay, so like if you have a friend,
17:03
maybe you can always tell the attentions are good. But they monologue a lot.
17:07
They uh, And that's the other thing a lot of women. And
17:11
it's not as true with the men, but with with women. With females,
17:15
there tends to be the self absorbed perception with females on the auto sub
17:19
spectrum because they monologue a lot, so people think it's all about them and
17:23
I'm like, no, no, no, they're stuck. They're just stuck
17:30
in their little monologue. Yeah, that's just how they communicate to you and
17:33
give you information. You're blowing my brain open line, right, now and
17:37
I'm trying to pick up the little bits and pieces that they're all over the
17:41
studio floor, and you don't do you know what's so? What's so funny
17:47
is with autism like there's this, there's this miss there's this what I call
17:52
misconception. But I'm gonna specify why it is about that people on the autoso
17:59
spectrum do not understand humor. I hear people say that a lot. I'm
18:03
like, oh no, no, no, they get it, but it's
18:06
in a very different way. It's more of like the way a mathematician understands
18:11
an equation. It's like I see that this plus this plus this equals laugh.
18:17
And so like when you listen to the comedians who are on the spectrum,
18:22
or if you listen to my husband, who is hilarious and can just
18:25
i mean rattle stufff you should be on stage, he just won't because autism,
18:30
so in his particular manifestation is like no thank you to that, no
18:33
thank you to a bunch of people looking at me. But if you listen
18:38
to it, it's a lot more of you can you can hear a lot
18:44
more of a system to it than with a lot of comedians. You know
18:47
what I mean, you could if I There's some comedians that now I wonder
18:49
about like going back and listening to their rouginas. I'm like, hmm,
18:53
you know, I can wonder if us what this says? Well, Like
18:56
Hannah Gatsby is a great, a great example that when you listen to her,
19:00
you see the pattern, you see the build up, and you can
19:03
see where she learned to do this, you know what I mean. And
19:07
it's one of one of a very common connection methods that people on the spectrum
19:12
use, whether male or female, is the humor, because they know,
19:15
okay, people like what makes them laugh, so I'll make them laugh.
19:19
So they learn to make people laugh, which I think is absolutely healthy masking
19:23
things that people do. Yeah. Yeah, And I understand, like on
19:27
my side of things that I was going to coin myself into this a little
19:32
bit into this department and it becomes more and more clear. And I wish
19:37
that I had more education on this and my parents did when I was younger.
19:41
I can't. It's hard for me to understand how anybody could not be
19:48
this way? Does that make sense? I know? Yeah? And I'm
19:57
like I said, my brain is a kind of have been blown open,
20:00
and it's making me think of a lot of different things in my life,
20:03
like in flashes. So thank you. I'm just figure out gather. When
20:11
we're done with we'll we'll have a session. We can discuss it, and
20:14
we can work it. I'm going to need more than a session. I'm
20:18
like a bottle. But it's true, I'm the same way I've gotten.
20:22
So I have to check myself because I've gotten so attracted to neurodiversity and how
20:30
and getting to a point where i can communicate with people in a way that
20:33
they completely unmask and just let their natural proclivities fly. And it's just it's
20:41
just a better communication and it's a better way of thinking. And so I'm
20:44
just like, but what's interesting is so you're like, why isn't everybody this
20:48
way? Right? You just said that. So there are multiple studies that
20:52
have found evidence that humanity is moving toward neurodiversity. That's why we're seeing so
20:57
many upticks and diagnoses. Is that humanity that our natural selection process, the
21:03
natural evolution of humanity has gone, Oh, this seems like this is what
21:07
we need now. So we're gonna start developing these characteristics and start moving towards
21:11
this. You can see research on that in the National Institute of Medicine in
21:15
the National Library of National Library of Medicine, Natural Institute. That's what I
21:19
was trying to say. But it's fascinating. So we actually are kind of
21:23
moving more that way. And and now I'm like, I have friends that
21:27
are neurotypical that I mean a lot to be, but I'm like, there's
21:32
just a different experience. And then I love autism so much that I married
21:36
it. So I feel like, you know, definitely, I'm telling you
21:41
with mine, I tell you we we He is so incredible, like when
21:47
you were talking too, He's in his brain is like so incredibly beautiful.
21:52
Yeah, like to the point that I can't even with you right now,
22:00
like how I'm like wow, And we have a joke like, oh,
22:03
well, rain Man showed himself this morning wier than usual. Here. We
22:10
wake up very very early, and he only really really reads the like six
22:15
hundred page books like these really really thick long books and they're all historical,
22:18
they're all documentaries that he watches, and he just like so fascinated with all
22:22
of that and can rattle off, you know, at four o'clock in the
22:26
morning. Oh hey, in the nineteen eighty two, We're in eighteen seventy
22:30
one, and I'm like, what, I haven't even had a cup of
22:33
coffee yet. I am not ready for talking. Literally, even on ambient
22:38
the Man the other night, I wish I had videotaped it. He's out
22:41
cold and he goes, hey, honey, can I please meet Queen Elizabeth?
22:45
And I'm like, what are you talking about right now? Queen Elizabeth?
22:49
And he's like, I'm not sled out, she's dead. How about
22:56
don't you watch the streets? It's called to say on Okay, okay,
23:02
well how about King George? And this is of course in complete sleep.
23:07
He doesn't remember any of it, but he's always thinking about historical things and
23:11
historical data and data as a whole and how and it remembers all of these
23:14
everythings. He calls it like he has a Gerbil in his head, right,
23:17
yeah. And it's fascinating to watch him work. It's fascinating to watch
23:21
how he processes things. And it's fascinating. As soon as I kind of
23:23
picked up on a little bit within both of us, how much more patient
23:29
I was, Yeah, how much more I was like, Oh, that's
23:33
just him being rain man. What the fucknuts? She was beautiful. Yes,
23:41
embrace people as they are. One of my close friends has ADHD and
23:45
it was so cutue because she came to be at one point and she goes,
23:48
just do you think I could be neurodivers? And I went, oh,
23:52
you didn't know. Apparently there's like we're not in the minority. Yeah.
23:57
It was like, she definitely is. It was so obvious. I
24:00
was like, this is the cutest conversation. So the way that she thinks
24:06
just baffles me, and it's so cute. And so like one day I
24:10
was telling her about this really cool event that I got to go presents at
24:12
at these amazing humans I had been surrounded by, and one of them is
24:18
three D printing human organs with the intent of transplanting them and so you don't
24:22
have to wait for a donor anymore. It's incredible stuff. Right, first
24:26
thing out of her mouth, I say this, I say, I finished
24:29
with the intent of transplanting them, and she goes, I wonder if you
24:32
ate them, if that makes you a cannibal. I love her first thing,
24:37
and I know, I go, okay, I need to understand your
24:38
train of thought on that one, and she goes, okay, so,
24:42
you know how like they're three D printing meat and vegans are saying that's still
24:48
not vegan. She's like, she's like, maybe this would not make you
24:55
a cannibal, or would make you a cannibal. And she just extended that
24:59
thought from this thing she had read about three D spaconism over to cannibalism,
25:06
which I just thought was delightful. I mean, my first question is,
25:08
well, are they making more livers than any of the body organs that they're
25:12
used that they're so I'm in so because this is you know, we're talking
25:21
about pain here on this show. So I had to have a hysterectomy a
25:25
while back and then get back. This is tying into how min university works,
25:29
I guess. And I was just infuriated because they would not give me
25:33
back my uterus to feed to a shark. That thing put me through hell
25:37
on Earth for decades. I wanted to feed it to a shark. I
25:41
had a friend with the boat, I had another friend with the shark tracking
25:45
app, and we had set up the whole thing and they wouldn't give it
25:48
back. It was so rude. It's not just rude. I want to
25:55
know why, Like when we said that they weren't allowed, they said it
25:57
was illegal to give it back. I don't know. It's my body,
26:02
my choice. I want to feed my ovaries to sharks. I feel like
26:07
I should be able to do this my body parts. That's what I said.
26:12
They did let me they hold on. Sorry, my cat's chiming it.
26:18
She has opinions about that. So we did. They did let me
26:21
donate it to science, So that was good. Okay, somebody learned a
26:23
lot from it. But still it was not the satisfaction of watching it loved.
26:30
I would have loved to have heard that it actually happened. So I'm
26:33
sorry for you. I'm really so. I know. One of the things
26:38
that we talk about in relation to this is of course embracing that, and
26:41
with embracing comes inclusion, right. And you work in human resources, which
26:48
I find to be so incredibly fascinating for you, particularly to be working with
26:53
n HR. I also worked with a NHR butt at the technology level,
26:59
which is part of what you do. So can you talk to us a
27:00
little bit about the human resources side of what you do in your business?
27:06
And yes, I can, And how how you're doing that to help the
27:11
like what over a billion people that are neurodivergent like and in the workplace or
27:17
going to be in the workplace, or are leaving the workplace. So we're
27:21
experiencing a shift right now in our household of leaving the workplace, and it
27:26
is a major challenge. So within that, within that realm, so can
27:30
you just about leaving, but can you super important? Yeah, it is
27:37
so HR. First of all, it's I believe in completely revamping what people
27:44
work and HR looks like because we have been fucking it up for way too
27:48
long. And so I have a very different way that I approach all of
27:52
this. And the first thing that I start working with organizations on is I
27:59
do classes and I do exercises with them to teach them to recognize their ego
28:03
mechanism, which is a naturally occurring defense mechanism that every human has, and
28:08
to respond and how to stop it, and how to respond with ego with
28:11
curiosity. So to stop the ego and respond with curiosity, because if you
28:17
don't, you're never going to reach inclusion because every time somebody disagrees with you,
28:22
every time somebody has a different way of doing something, every time it's
28:25
it's just not going to work, and you'll start defending the fact that you
28:29
don't have policies that are inclusive because your ego mechanism kicks it and it's not
28:34
even conscious. It's completely subconscious. So you're not trying to be a dick.
28:37
It just happens. So well, try and then we fire them.
28:45
I'm very big on firing people. I enjoy it thoroughly, amen. I
28:48
legitimately had to learn not to smile during firing. And I don't talk about
28:53
layoffs. Layoffs suck, Okay, nobody wants to do that, but when
28:56
somebody has earned being fired, I had to teach my myself not to smile
29:00
like a maniac while doing it. So with HR, so you start there,
29:07
you learn the basics of communication and understanding. I provide a lot of
29:11
education because what people don't know confuses them and scares them. It's just that's
29:18
just how we're designed. So the more you help people understand, you create
29:22
psychological safety. Let them ask all their completely weird questions, and I have
29:26
gotten some doozies over the years because people are finally allowed to ask something that's
29:30
just been on their brain. I get asked that would just it would just
29:34
shock you that you're just like, I love that you have ever thought that
29:37
that was the thing, and but you just you just let it go and
29:41
you respond and you smile at them, and because they really are curious and
29:44
they're trying to understand. So you know, letting people work through, letting
29:48
them work through their own frustrations. So you get through all that, and
29:52
then we learned that the accommodation process is ineffective and it's stupid. So so
29:59
you look. Eulip Packard is one of my shining examples that I like to
30:03
use. They developed a fully neuroinclusive cultivation program and as a tribute to their
30:07
founders who were in the neurodiverse community, and they basically just said, whatever
30:15
you need to work, however you need to work, do it. So
30:18
people form symbiotic work cells, which is where three different people come together to
30:22
complete the three different jobs, but they all worked together. Then you had
30:26
people that would work while they walked. You had people that use noise canceling
30:30
headphones, people that worked remote, people that worked in the office, people,
30:33
I mean just whatever it was they said on yoga bols, not desk
30:37
chairs, and they found that that team became thirty three percent more productive than
30:41
the other teams. And then they started duplicating it and guess what happened that
30:45
same pattern. Everybody became more productive. So that's what I start to teach
30:52
these companies is no accommodations unless it's something expensive. I tell people, let's
30:56
come up with a number, and if it's going to be something over a
30:59
certain amount, okay, that's you know, that's acceptable. That's okay,
31:02
you can have a process for that. But when fifty four percent of accommodations
31:04
are free, that's per the Department of Labor, and when another large percentage
31:10
our ten dollars or less, why are we making people jump through hoops.
31:15
It's just stupid. And nobody works the same way. Nobody doesn't matter if
31:18
you're neurotypical, it doesn't matter if you have a disability or not. It
31:21
doesn't matter. Everybody works differently. Everybody needs something else to make them more
31:23
comfortable. And what's interesting is even people outside of the disability community or the
31:29
neurodiversity community will see the accommodations go oh, that would be so great for
31:33
me. Oh I would really enjoy that. Oh I would like that so
31:36
much better. It works for everybody. It works for everybody, So like
31:40
just change accommodations in the standard options just when people come on board. Here's
31:45
a list of things that we offer. Here's a fill in the blank.
31:48
Tell us what works for you. Yeah right, it's just pain letting people
31:56
take. Yeah, like I could never sit without like like I it's really
32:00
hard for me to work without music, like next to impossible, And it's
32:05
way easier for me to work with headphones on my ears or my earbuds in
32:08
or something like that. It's the only way that I fully enjoy what I'm
32:13
doing. And it gets in the way of of of just being distracted.
32:17
And my spouse is extremely distracting. He just is. And so I mean
32:22
he is. He is just him. That's just him. It's like,
32:28
okay, sure, but my husband, my husband has this new thing of
32:32
like because the hot tub is right outside of my office, of like getting
32:37
in there naked while I'm like mid podcast and I'm like I can't get focus,
32:40
Like that is wonderful. It's not. It's not a complaint. Even
32:47
hot tub tonight, no man interested in getting in a hot tub like you.
32:54
Okay, war bubbles for me, Oh my goodness, that's so fun.
33:00
Maybe I always joke about I'm like, that's my new distraction is my
33:02
sexy naked husband and climbing against it. But it's just but seriously, but
33:07
but going back to the work stuff. So it's just, well, that's
33:09
an accommodation that you make. I need you need to be able to see
33:15
out of big window to It helps me, helps my serotonin levels. But
33:22
it really, it really does work to let people work in a way that's
33:25
natural for them. The brain functions better when it's allowed to work in a
33:30
way that's natural and comfortable, to the same thing for the body. Right,
33:31
If you're comfortable, then you're able to work better. So let's quit
33:37
being weird about women having heating pads at work. Let's quit being weird about
33:40
that. Sometimes women need to recline to work because our bodies get super ef
33:45
and uncomfortable, and sometimes you just need to be able to be in a
33:49
different position. So I really work with organizations from that standpoint and just helping
33:54
them to learn to think differently, because really that's what solves the problem.
33:58
When you change how people think and how they design, it completely opens the
34:01
door and then everything just kind of works from there, so you create your
34:05
psychological safety and then you just grow. That promotes more happiness and more wellness
34:09
and taking better care of yourself. And if you're somebody that lives in chronic
34:13
pain or you've had all this trauma stuff that's happened to you, that doesn't
34:15
make us feel quite as weird. Even though I don't mind being a weirdo,
34:20
like I think that. I think that like if you put the spotlight
34:23
on being a weirdo too, that's kind of like, well, I don't
34:27
know, but if people don't give us the opportunities to be who we are,
34:32
then we feel like we have to be somebody that we're not. And
34:36
that's how I was kind of raised to be and how I grew up.
34:40
And it's only fairly. I've always been crazy, dramatic and over the top
34:45
and all of it. I was an opera major and sing you know,
34:46
singing and hiking and biking and getting on stage and all those things. So
34:50
I was never afraid of being out and in front of people, but I
34:53
absolutely hate being in front of people at the same time, r I don't
35:00
like going to the supermarket. I don't like going you know like that.
35:02
Oh I don't like to see other people, but I don't mind being in
35:06
front of them either, which makes no sense. And that's that's that's confusing
35:12
for us, right, Why do I Why do I thrive in this environment
35:17
so well when I actually don't like doing this thing? Oh yeah, like
35:22
I don't. I don't want to know with other people, but I freaking
35:23
love teaching. I freaking love to come in and teach and get things going.
35:28
I love that stuff. I love podcasting, I love speaking on stage.
35:31
But I don't want to people and I don't want anybody to touch me.
35:36
I have a very big, very big personal bubble. Now unless I
35:39
really know you, unless I really know you, I have friends that will
35:43
come up and get a little cuddly with me or that whatever. It's okay
35:45
because it's them. But even then, after a few minutes, I'm like,
35:49
that was, yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, it's it's
35:57
really it is really interesting to stop and just think about if you just let
36:02
everybody and just just support everybody and being who they are, the extraordinary things
36:08
that will happen. And that's what I do in my work bubble is we
36:13
all just let it go. Like, we just hear. Whatever the thing
36:15
is that you have going on with you, that's the thing. And whether
36:19
it's something with your body, whether it's something with your mind, your nerves,
36:22
whatever it is, we talk about it, we collaborate about it,
36:27
we accommodate each other, and it just works beautifully and it makes everything so
36:32
much more effective because nobody's hiding. You're never there's never that guessing game.
36:37
Everybody is on the same page about everything, and then everybody's allowed to thrive
36:44
in the way that works for them, and you're not forcing somebody into this
36:49
weird thing that they don't want to do. It's like symbiotic work cells or
36:52
another one that I preach super super hardcore, because I'm like, why are
36:58
you making this this person do stuff they don't want to do. They're not
37:01
good at it, they don't like it, but they're really good at this
37:05
part. But this other person is the opposite. So put them together.
37:08
What difference does it make that people are just saying, I know people,
37:15
makes no sense why we're doing that, zero sense. So just restructuring,
37:20
redesigning, helping people to understand how to communicate with one another, how to
37:23
appreciate one another, and then another one on the physical disability side that I
37:30
have to get people on board with is stop projecting. Stop. I was
37:34
just gonna ask you about stop assuming cut it out, just stop it.
37:38
Yeah. One of my one of my favorite examples is you know, agism
37:43
is a big thing, right, and it's a fairly safe topic to talk
37:45
about. You know, nobody can get all sensitive about everything. One of
37:49
the examples I give is my grandmother, who in COVID is very sad because
37:53
she missed her family. Right. She's at the time, she was eighty
37:58
seven eighty seven years old, and she missed seeing all of her great grands
38:01
all this, and so she got a cell phone, and she got a
38:05
smartphone, and she learned how to use it, and then she wanted to
38:07
learn zoom, so he puts zoom on there. She learned how to do
38:10
that. So she asks everybody in the family, her four kids, all
38:15
of her grandchildren, to send her money. She gives the money, and
38:19
then my mom says, her oldest child says okay, now practice sending it
38:22
back. And she goes, oh, no, that's too hard, I
38:24
can't learn that, and then looks at me and grins. I'm like you
38:28
can learn to be a con woman. That's what you did. You So
38:31
I'm like, never, like, never assume that somebody can't do something.
38:37
And the same thing with disability. And I've used myself as an example.
38:42
I've I've talked about you know, I work, no ie need to nothing,
38:45
and nobody stops and thinks, oh, she has eight disabilities, you
38:47
know, between between neuro and physical life eight disabilities, and and so you
38:54
know, nobody stops something. I'm like, you cannot project onto another person.
38:58
Let them tell you what they can and cannot do. Never assume.
39:02
I've had people tell me that in a job description it needed to say somebody
39:06
who can stand for X number of I say, what do you mean by
39:07
that? Well, where they work, it's it's very elevated where they need
39:12
to be. Yes, it's so wouldn't a standing stool work? And they're
39:14
like, oh, yeah, they could sit on a stool. I'm like,
39:15
okay, so they don't need to be able to stand for that.
39:19
Yeah, because either lifting fifty pounds or these things. It's the standard boiler
39:24
there that sets me off. But no, unless you're actually doing that on
39:28
a regular basis, that's not a thing that's to give me a break.
39:30
Yes, stop break. It really is true. So I tell people stop
39:34
projecting. Stop projecting whatever you're assuming onto these other people. And the same
39:38
thing. By the way, even in the disability community, I see a
39:42
lot of this. It's like I can't do this, so therefore you can't
39:45
because you have the same diagnosis. It's different for everyone. Everybody's case is
39:49
different. Everybody's an individual. So I tell like, one of the main
39:52
things that I teach leadership and organizations is to learn that and to treat people
39:55
accordingly and to trust that the person's not going to lie to you about what
39:59
they can or cannot do physically. Yeah, nobody wants. Nobody wants to
40:06
hurt themselves physically, so they have very good incentive not to lie to you
40:07
about that. Like skills, they might lie about that, but they're not
40:10
gonna lie about what what's gonna what might end up hurting them physically. That's
40:15
not a thing. Right, Like if I roll in in my little wheelchair
40:17
or whatever, which her name is Judy. By the way, Judy and
40:21
I go rolling in somewhere, I actually am more comfortable in my wheelchair in
40:27
public and in public spaces and such and now I'm fine with it, like
40:30
whatever, I don't care. I actually love the thing because I embraced it
40:34
and I we all we just got used to it, and my family and
40:37
my crew and we're just like, all right, just throw Judy in the
40:38
back and let's go. You know, otherwise I'm sitting around here not being
40:43
able to do any of the fun stuff that they used to do. It's
40:45
just a little bit different real quick. I have to tell you what just
40:47
popped in my head. Like you're a public and the people around you don't
40:51
know your name, and somebody goes, let's throw Judy the back and go.
40:53
They think that they mean you. Nah, totally, That's what my
40:59
friends do anyways, so it fits my God, I love it but doing
41:04
that. But you know, in the beginning, when I first got into
41:06
it, my fate was it was almost two years ago now, which is
41:08
ew that's hard to believe. Anyway, it was I was very very self
41:12
conscious. Nobody around me in my in my personal circle made me feel that
41:15
way. I know it's still a little uncomfortable for my mom, but I
41:21
feel less disabled in a wheelchair than I do using a cane. Yeah,
41:27
you know, what's funny. Why the hell you know I have No,
41:30
I can see that. No, I can actually see that. Okay,
41:32
you want to know what my first thought was when you said that I do,
41:36
is that your body is more comfortable than it is when it's uplocking and
41:38
said that's why. And so because your body is more comfortable than your mind
41:42
is more comfortable. No, I'm more comfortable in my chair. Yeah,
41:45
you're like physically more comfortable. Yeah, because I'm more comfortable and I'm supported.
41:50
And I know because my leg both it's not one leg, you know,
41:52
it's both of them, and and I just feel like, oh great,
41:55
it's this one more thing that's going to get like stuck on something or
42:00
I'm gonna strip on it, or I'm gonna end up like holding it on
42:01
my shoulder to pick something up instead, like all these dumb things. Yeah,
42:06
you know what you know. What it is to me too, is
42:08
physical disability can really suck sometimes, like and even neurodiversity can have some very
42:19
fucking frustrating aspects. Like my OCD is great for work, it's a pain
42:23
in the ass when I've got to wash my hands twenty six times or when
42:28
like whatever it is that I've gotten stuff here. Oh by the way,
42:30
I have a thing with even numbers, So yeah, try driving with that
42:34
where everywhere you look there's odd numbers and stuff. It's it's a disaster for
42:37
me. So I completely like, I get it. And from the physical
42:40
standpoint, you know all it's freaking hard. And so another thing that I
42:47
I'm very big one is teaching organizations. Number one, don't be nosy you.
42:54
All you need to know is what the person needs and how it will
42:57
help. You don't need to know why. And so sometimes the reason that
43:00
that person, to your point that you've made several times throughout the show,
43:02
and I really appreciate it, sometimes the reason that that person has whatever it
43:07
is is because of a trauma, yes, or there's a trauma related to
43:10
it, and you don't need to be bringing that up. That's not your
43:15
business, any of your business. What happened to me when I was in
43:17
college? You motherfucker? Yeah it's not it's not. But people get so
43:22
nosy, know, and I'm like, no, you don't need to know
43:24
all that. You don't need to know their journey. And yeah, thank
43:28
you for saying that as well. Yeah it's and thank you. Like I
43:31
said for bringing that up, because it's so very important to understand that.
43:36
And you need to also understand that everybody at some point is going to need
43:42
support from something, right, but have it set up already, have it
43:46
going, you know, and the same thing. You know, it's hard
43:51
to learn to unmask. So I have a lot of people that are like,
43:53
well, why can't people just tell me what they need? Why do
43:55
I need to have a list of options? And I'm like, well,
43:59
because most people have not been taught to take care of themselves. They've been
44:01
taught to normalize, and that's incredibly unhealthful to the honest to god don't know.
44:07
And I have silenced so many rooms saying that, and people just get
44:10
this look like, oh my god. I've had people approach me go I
44:14
just started realizing all the times I was being harmful and they didn't mean it
44:17
right, but they didn't know, but they realize, like, oh,
44:22
we have to give a lot of grace for that, you know, to
44:25
understand that people are learning to take care of themselves. We're just now coming
44:29
into an era where it's acceptable to take care of yourself, which is Sunraal.
44:32
I know, ridiculous that it took this long. It really is amazing,
44:36
and that we're starting to get there, We're starting to have these kinds
44:38
of conversations. And I'll say this to you, like to your audience,
44:43
if anybody wants me to help you, or anybody has any questions, reach
44:45
out. I'm glad to help with whatever you're dealing with. Because it's unbelievable
44:50
to me the number of communications that I get that are still about discrimination.
44:55
I mean, like blatant discrimination and harmful practices. It's so gross it with
45:02
disability to like, I love the curiosity aspect of disability. So I was
45:07
watching this TikTok last night and it was so perfect that it was right before
45:10
the show, because don't judge her that she's on this TikTok. This gentleman
45:16
was. This gentleman was doing who has a disability and he talks and advocates
45:23
about disability, and he was talking about how he was out of the store
45:28
one time and this little boy looks at him and goes, why does he
45:32
walk different? And the mom goes to shush him, but before she could,
45:37
he goes, he walks so fancy. I like it, you know,
45:39
really, because he was walking with a katies through foot palsy and the
45:44
kid thought it was so cool, right, the kid thought was amazing,
45:47
And it was like, but what a good moment of that. Just because
45:52
you notice that something is different, or just because you have a question about
45:55
something, doesn't mean that it's from a place of ugliness. Like one of
46:00
the things that we have to practice, I feel, and this is just
46:02
my opinion on our end, the people with the disabilities and the weird brains
46:07
and all this kind of stuff is accepting the curiosity and letting people ask.
46:13
And if you don't doesn't mean you have to share every detail. That's not
46:15
what I'm sure I'm not, But let people ask the questions. Like the
46:19
days when I have my facial tics and stuff, it's like sometimes it'll look
46:22
like I have some thriller moves going on, or like I'm trying to pick
46:23
them up for a date, you know, and I let people ask questions
46:27
about it, you know, and people want to know, does it hurt
46:30
me? People want to know, can they do anything? They want to
46:32
know? Dolty help with my work? You know? These these are the
46:36
types of things. So but just let people get a little bit curious with
46:38
you. Yeah, and I know that that's hard because that means that we
46:42
have to like, oh, let our guard down a little bit, and
46:44
we have, but if we're gonna get frustrated or our word over here is
46:47
fuck straighted, So you're more than welcome to use that when you get thank
46:52
you, when you get fuckstrated. You know, it's like, well,
46:53
hold on a second. If we're not allowing others in to ask questions and
46:59
be curious about us as well, then we're just as bad as they are,
47:04
because like, well, we're going to sit here and go, well,
47:06
you don't care about me this way, and you don't care about me
47:07
that way, and you're not taking care of it. Well, if you
47:09
haven't let any of aody know about any of these needs. And one thing
47:12
that I wanted to say, and I didn't want to interrupt you when you
47:14
were talking about advocating, this is also not just advocating for ourselves that might
47:17
be in the neurodiversent world, but also advocating for those that you know,
47:22
Yes, because we might not be able to communicate exactly what we're trying to
47:27
accomplish here right now, but you might be able to try to make some
47:31
change in the organizations that you're in that you're saying that by proxy will help
47:36
others. So that's so do it, yes, and and support the people
47:40
who are too. If somebody else speaks up, jump in and be like
47:43
yes, because the more voices that say it, the more likely they're actually
47:46
going to fucking listen. Yeah, and people will be more curious and more
47:50
and more change will happen, which is great exactly yea. And how like
47:53
good like listening sessions where you can all really sit down and plan things out.
47:59
Get out to the drawing board. Make it fun, like get in
48:01
there, like just really work through some stuff. It's it gets interesting when
48:05
you start just realizing like oh yeah, like we have completely boothed this process.
48:08
This is not a clusion. Let's let's fix this, let's do this.
48:13
And then you realize, oh, it's a better process anyway because it's
48:15
better designed, so you know, just it makes just more sense to get
48:20
practical things. And you're right about the curiosity element, by the way,
48:22
like if we don't let people ask the questions, how do we expect them
48:25
to learn? And now and people go, well google it, Well guess
48:28
what you don't get squat when you google about this? Kind of stuff.
48:30
You get the stupid ada stum, you get all that that none of that
48:34
actually is what people need or are thinking. Or I'm like, we still
48:37
need to have the conversations, but sometimes maybe just tell the person not today,
48:43
but let's talk about this in two days. I love, I really
48:45
want to talk to you. Let's put some time on the calendar, because
48:47
dude, I have my days, trust me, woo. I have my
48:51
days where I'm like, if I hear one more stupid, I am going
48:55
to lose my mind. And it's okay to be frustrated that not every already
49:00
knows, because it would be more convenient if everybody knew. We have to
49:02
help them out. Yeah, and also a little less fun because we can
49:05
play tricks on all of these people. Yeah, it's kind of fun.
49:07
It is kind of fun. Oh my goodness, gracious, this is so
49:12
incredibly interesting. I'm I'm saying, you're like scribbling notes and like thinking through
49:17
things that I could want to continue to ask you when we're running out of
49:21
time, which is a total bummer. But one of the things that I
49:23
want to touch on real quick before we jam is trauma bonding and neurodiversity,
49:30
and I know it's a tough one for us to end because we've had a
49:31
little bit of fun here, but we briefly talked about it on our meet
49:37
and greet, And first of all, I'd like you to explain what trauma
49:40
bonding is. I know that a lot of Earnest listeners already know. I
49:44
certainly do, But why is it? So? Why is it so much
49:47
stronger in people that are neuro diverse than those that are what do you call
49:52
it when people are normal, neurotypical normy? I don't like normy's because it
49:59
makes its all like work something I don't know. So trauma bonding is when
50:06
the person that is the problem is also the solution, and so your brain
50:09
associates them with the healing because all your brain wants is for this bad thing
50:13
to stop, so it doesn't care what the source is. So then it's
50:17
this six cycle of this thing that is hurting me is also bringing me back
50:21
in and giving me the healing, and so you're addicted. You actually become
50:24
chemically addicted to the fact that they are the healing person to you, and
50:30
it becomes almost impossible to separate from them because they're the thing that makes you
50:32
feel better, how could you ever leave that? And it's harder for people
50:37
with neurodiversity a because a lot of times it's they've been traumatized so much that
50:46
it's just even by society telling them that they're wrong and they're basic human design,
50:52
which is not correct by the way science disagrees, But there's so much
50:59
trauma there that it leaves more open. But also because our brains work differently,
51:04
and our bonding chemicals work differently, and the way that we process works
51:08
differently, and again it varies from diagnosis to diagnosis, it can make you
51:14
a lot more likely to attach. So, for instance, folks on the
51:16
autism spectrum, we keep using that one a lot, But it's because I'm
51:20
married to a person on the spectrum, I think, is why people in
51:22
the autism spectrum tend to have very close relationships. The people that they let
51:27
in they don't let go of. And that is a trait of the neurodiversity.
51:30
So if you compound that with active trauma bonding, they're never going to
51:35
break that cycle. It's just and so it's just so much extra work.
51:40
It's so much extra work for them. Also because their brain is so ingrained
51:47
in patterns, it's even harder to get it to deviate and to see.
51:52
The other interesting thing though, is that there are a lot of people in
51:55
the neurodiverse community that will understand what's happening to them and will live with it
51:59
any way they see it. They know exactly what's happening, and they choose
52:02
to stay in it anyway. And there could be various reasons for that.
52:05
So I don't want to go and to speculation. It is highly common that
52:09
the people and I've spoken to several people in the mental health profession about this,
52:13
that we're fascinated by it. I said, oh, yeah, a
52:14
lot of them know what's happening. They're perfectly aware. They just are like,
52:17
well, people have always been kind of crappy in my life, so
52:22
I guess we'll just go with this. Yeah, what more. That's terrible.
52:28
It's awful. Yeah, it really is. And so it's just a
52:30
little bit more susceptible community, especially again because they've been told their wrong their
52:36
whole life, so they're just like, well, this is just I guess
52:38
what is going to for me. This is all I'm allowed, this is
52:42
all I'm allowed to have, and it's just whoy it's whoy, it's complete
52:46
bs. I don't like it. And it's really tough. It's really really
52:52
tough to break that kind of relationship. It is a lot of people,
52:57
and it happens at work a lot. I can't tell you how many times
53:02
have I literally cannot even count the number of times that I've had candidates that
53:07
they were like, oh my gosh, my boss is so awful. They
53:10
yell at me, they scream at me, they throw things at me,
53:12
they demean me, they take credit for my work. And then I go,
53:15
I get them another job and it's more money. And then the boss
53:19
goes, no, but I could never live without you. I rely on
53:22
you, I need you. You're my rock, and they stay yeah.
53:28
I see it all the time, and and I see it on the hr
53:30
side of things, you know what, I'm dealing with relations and so it's
53:35
gross. It's gross, but it happens all the time. It's extremely common.
53:38
So one of the things, by the way to break that that I
53:42
encourage people is to set firm boundaries and not budge on them. And this
53:45
will prevent it and also help you break the cycle of whenever this boundary happens,
53:50
you just say that doesn't work for me, and then stop and then
53:54
like walk away and let them know I'll resume working with you when the behavior
54:00
changes. So, Okay, you've got a couple of things coming up,
54:04
You've got some events going on, You've got let's chech out real quick about
54:07
that before we hit the dust. My first event coming up is super exciting.
54:12
It's going to be the first in person NEU University Megasummit at Grand Central
54:15
Station in New York this August twenty fourth, I want to say August twenty
54:21
fourth. It's a Saturday, so if you want to come, come,
54:23
I'm also we still have a few booth and table spots open. They're extremely
54:28
affordable, and we do still have the exclusive sponsorship offer, so reach out
54:34
is super affordable as well, So feel free to reach out to me if
54:37
you're interested in participating or coming, just whatever you want to do, just
54:40
reach out. Let me know. Super excited about that. Then, I
54:45
also have in October, from the twenty third to the twenty fifth, we're
54:50
going to be hanging out at the Uta Planetarium in DFW and the Pocket Sandwich
54:54
Theater and we're going to be collaborating to actually build a better world of work.
55:00
So this isn't come sit get yacked at for a few days. This
55:02
is we're going to dive in together. We're going to collaborate, and we're
55:06
going to create. Food is provided. It's good Texas food. Proud of
55:08
my home state. We have really good food, have great food, great
55:13
people, awesome educators. They're going to kind of pitch in and kind of
55:16
guide us through different projects. Highly highly highly recommend you come. It's gonna
55:20
be a small intimate event, so feel free to check that out at peopleverse
55:23
dot org. Okay, so that one's people vers dot org. The other
55:27
one in New York is the Neverse neuroroverse Yeah, very space, the very
55:34
space, so much, ladies, and we'll join the Neuroverse with us people
55:39
because it's a really wack and due place to be in. Super fun.
55:45
Oh my goodness, Well, thank you so much for your time. I'll
55:46
put all this stuff in show notes and in socialised well and it's just been
55:50
wonderful learning more, a little bit more about myself than other loved ones in
55:53
my life. Oh, I'm going to know you a little bit and getting
55:57
to know you a little bit better too. I really appreciate ciate it.
56:00
It's been a blasting actually, thank you. Yeah, it's been very fun.
56:02
Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. You
56:06
are exclusively invited to share this get Curious vip pain journey together. Let's get
56:10
to the heart of how to KIO with you by my side, Let's connect
56:15
and hear stories of strength and grit. I am here, so is Catherine.
56:19
We are here to help provide a safe place for you to be vulnerable,
56:22
ask questions, get curious, be honest, whatever it is, We've
56:25
got your back. So please follow the Pain Game Podcast wherever you digest your
56:30
podcast content, we will be there. Visit us at the paygamepodcast dot com,
56:35
and follow us on all the socials. Thanks for listening, my little
56:37
VIPs. Catch you on the other side.