Latest / Kind of a Big Deal / The Cage Door Is Wide Open. Are You Walking Through It?

Transcript

The Cage Door Is Wide Open. Are You Walking Through It? · Kind of a Big Deal

0:01
SPEAKER_02: Hi everyone, welcome to Kind of a Big Deal.
0:04
SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Kristen Belden.
0:06
SPEAKER_02: If you've been enjoying the show, please hit that follow button.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: It helps more awesome folks like you find us.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: Today I'm sitting down with Helena, founder and CEO of Archive Digital, an enterprise e-commerce services company that is female founded in a space where that is still genuinely rare.
0:24
SPEAKER_02: She spent over a decade building her career through boutique agencies and two major corporate acquisitions, including time as chief of staff to a CEO, before identifying a gap in the market and betting on herself.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: She had the golden handcuffs, the title, the stability, and she walked away anyway.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: We talk about why the chief of staff role is having a renaissance with AI, what 10 years of sobriety taught her about building a business and sitting with discomfort, and how she reversed her company's tech direction in her first board meeting with zero data, just her gut, and told the board exactly that.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait for you to meet her, so here we go.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: Hi Helena.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Hi, thanks for having me.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: So happy to have you here.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
1:09
SPEAKER_02: We were just talking about how I haven't I've taken a little bit of a break over the summer to, you know, get a little bit of space and time with the kids.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: So I'm like amped and I'm ready to be back and in these conversations.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: And when I woke up this morning and I realized it was you, I was like, oh, this is gonna be so much fun.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, thank you so much.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: I know we had such an instant connection when we first chatted.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited to be bringing it back for the listeners.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Perfect energy.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: So I reached out to Helena after seeing some of what she'd been sharing online.
1:40
SPEAKER_02: And funnily enough, we were just talking about online platforms and social media and kind of where we're showing up and why.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: And I found her because I saw what she was putting out on LinkedIn, and I just found so much of what she was sharing to be compelling.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: I kind of watched as she was evolving some of her own way of talking about the work and what she's doing, and I was just really interested in how intentional she was being, and not only in her process, but also in what she was sharing.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: So when I reached out to her and we chatted, she is just as wonderful as I had imagined, super fun, super candid.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I I know this can sound a little trite, but really wise beyond her years.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: She has such a presence about her and such a short amount of time that we've had together.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: So I can't wait to dig in a little bit more.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: And I'm so excited for folks to meet you.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: So thanks for being here.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: Yay, that was so kind, and thank you so much.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: And I I mean, I would love to dig in on more of that, but I it I've only started really posting on LinkedIn this year, like only the last four months.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: So the fact that you found me and it resonated is just, you know, proof the proof is in the pudding.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: So it's totally, I know, especially as we can tell ourselves as we're we were just talking about how business owners and entrepreneurs are becoming brand creators in some ways.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: There are mornings or days or weeks where you're like, I don't want to do that.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to deal with that.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Don't make me post another thing this week.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: This is not what I thought I was signing up for.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: So I think for you, it would be really helpful if we start with the present day.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: So talk a little bit about what you've been building, a new company and something that's getting a lot of traction really early days.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: So let's start with today.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: What are you building and what are you excited about?
3:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great question.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: So I'm the founder and CEO of a company called Archive Digital, and we are an enterprise e-commerce services partner.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: So basically what that means is we implement e-commerce technologies.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: So we can do some work, strategy, design, agnostic.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: But then when it comes to the more technical side, we're working specifically with platform technologies.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank your Salesforce Commerce Cloud, Shopify.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: I work with a newer platform called Scale, which is entering the US market, which is really cool and exciting.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: So that's a little on the nerdier side.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: You kind of need to understand the e-commerce platform technology landscape.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: But bottom line is we are an e-commerce technology services provider, systems integrator, sometimes called and then sometimes called agency.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: So all kind of interchangeable from that perspective.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: How I got here was I spent the majority of my career, so the last decade plus in boutique agencies doing the exact same thing that Archive does today.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: And I was acquired by big, big companies.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: So I went through an acquisition to Cap Gemini, which is like a global systems integrator, and then I also went through an acquisition to WPP, which is like one of the biggest creative holding companies in the world.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: So had rode the corporate, corporate career through two big acquisitions, and then really just identified an opportunity in the market to bring a true boutique, commerce, enterprise, commerce services company back to the market, kind of the type of company that I grew up in and came up in my career in, and then were female founded, which is really unusual in this space.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: So I'm, you know, super proud of that.
5:10
SPEAKER_02: I did not know about the navigation of the acquisition landscape.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's such a unique experience.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: So I definitely want to hear a little bit about that.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: But before we go there, like who, so who are you working with?
5:23
SPEAKER_02: Who are the types?
5:24
SPEAKER_02: Is it like a size of a business?
5:26
SPEAKER_02: Is it at a stage of a business?
5:27
SPEAKER_02: Who's fine?
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, we say enterprise, so think like you're big branded manufacturers and retailers.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: So like household name companies.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: Companies that people want to work with.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: These aren't clients that we work with today, but clients that I've worked with in my past are like Herman Miller and Design Within Reach, Yeti Coolers, Kate Spade, Stuart Weitzman, Torrey Birch, I think big branded manufacturers and retailers that are selling online.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: So I would love to hear a little bit about maybe how when you walked through that acquisition landscape, like how similar were each of those experiences, right, with each other?
6:10
SPEAKER_02: And you know, kind of what have you taken from that as you think about what you're building today and kind of maybe what your hope is for the future with Archive.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: So they were similar but pretty different experiences, actually.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: And I also think it really matters where you're at in your career when you go through an acquisition.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, the first acquisition I went through was in 2018, and I was an individual contributor.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: So I was an account manager, I was managing a book of business, and you know, you're kind of just an employee.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: So you're like company's getting inquired, your email's gonna change, you're some things are gonna change, but like you've got more leadership level people kind of protecting you and the rest of the company from any of the negative, I don't want to say negative, but some of just like the bigger change that's gonna be a little dramatic at times.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: Some stuff there that can be.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: I was younger in my career, I was an individual contributor, so I was, I just had a different perspective of things, right?
7:15
SPEAKER_00: On one hand, it was like, oh, cool, we can sell more services to our clients, so more opportunity for me.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: There, there was some of that.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: But then as the years kind of go on, you start to notice what I always say.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I I'm not really a big company person, so I'm kind of saying this in jest, but also very seriously, is just the bureaucracy that comes with it.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: The layers of management, the red tape, just the bigger the company gets, the more there is to navigate.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: And I was an account manager, so my job was to manage our clients and make sure they were getting the best service they possibly could from us.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: And it happened, I started really noticing that I couldn't do the same things for clients that I was able to do when we were more of a boutique agency.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: So think I mean, there's so many different examples of that, but like things just take longer.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: You can't turn around contracts as quickly, you're having to reset expectations.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: Like it just there just becomes more layers between the client and the decision making, which I was kind of in the middle of.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: So that was really what colored that experience for me.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: Fast forward to the next acquisition I went through.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: I started at that company when they were on a very high growth trajectory and I came in as our head of account management.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: So I was leading the function.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: And then I ended up moving into being the chief of staff to our CEO through the acquisition.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: And when we got acquired by that company, like I was I was the chief of staff to the CEO.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: So I was absolutely at the leadership level seeing everything that was going on behind the scenes, not behind the scenes, like just a wholly different experience because I was in those meetings.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: I was in conversations around layoffs and cost cutting.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: And this was in that acquisition happened.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: The second acquisition happened in like the 2023 timeframe, 2024 timeframe, which is when the economy really started taking a turn and weren't digital and retail.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: So there was a boom in 2020, 2021, 2022 through the COVID times.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: So like there was a ton of digital spending.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: It was like we always joke over like those were the golden years of e-commerce.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Like things were so good that everyone was really riding a high.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: And then come 2023, 2024, the the market really shifted.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: So kind of add that on top of I was on the leadership team.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: I was seeing a lot more that I didn't see the first time around.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: I was having to make harder decisions, and the economy wasn't, it was just in a completely different place than it was in the first time around.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: So my personal experience was fairly different, but the the environment is a lot the same.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Like the bureaucracy, the decision making, like things taking longer, you're you're running a major acquisition into a global company, you're you're navigating all of that.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: So kind of fast forward, it's really those two experiences and getting further and further away from the customer.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: Like I always say I was raised in the industry with a customer-first mentality.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: And I also we're in the services business, like consulting and services.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: Like I always say your integrity, your reputation, your word is like that's all we have.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Like we're not selling a product, we're not.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: So being a services company, being able to say, being able to do what you say you're gonna do carries a lot of weight and is very important.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: So when you get put in a position where you can't do that as well as you used to be able to, clients notice.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: And that's what really drove me to want to start Archive and want to do my own thing because I had been through it twice and I was just like, I there's a better way.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: Like we can get back to the customer, we can get back to just doing great work with great people.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be complicated.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
11:08
unknown: I love that.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it doesn't have to be so serious, right?
11:12
unknown: Yeah.
11:13
unknown: Yeah.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: As my younger sister reminds me, it's just not that deep.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: I remember I had a really dear friend who was really high up on the creative team at Gap.
11:25
SPEAKER_02: And like his boss was like, you know, just running the show.
11:30
SPEAKER_02: And like he said, he asked him one time, like, how do you just like how do you keep it so chill?
11:35
SPEAKER_02: Like, how are you not stressed all the time or freaked out or whatever?
11:39
SPEAKER_02: And he said his answer was at the end of the day, it's just t-shirt and jeans.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: It's just t-shirts and jeans.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, I just got I just got chills because one of the first stories I heard in my career from my then boss at the time, we had a client a couple agencies ago who was like, same thing, a timeline slipping, a project's going off the rail, you know, whatever.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: It's just chaotic.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, We're selling overpriced t-shirts to guys who do not need another t-shirt.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, we're not going to the moon, we're not curing cancer, like it's just not that big of a deal.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: So that is definitely like a thing in retail.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I come back to it.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: Like, even, I mean, because it's it translates so well to every industry, right?
12:20
SPEAKER_02: Like when I can remember for myself, like it's just t-shirts and jeans.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: Like everything's fine, and we're gonna get through whatever this, you know, next little bump is.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: I was curious when you were talking about the gap in the market, and I hear you saying, like, you can just see that there was an opportunity to be more directly connected with the client and stay smaller.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Did you, or maybe not smaller, that's not the right language, but just having that kind of more boutique feeling around what it means to come back to being client first.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: Did you could you have seen yourself as an entrepreneur years ago?
12:54
SPEAKER_02: Like, is this something you always hoped for for yourself?
12:57
SPEAKER_02: Or is this kind of just a moment in time that you took advantage of?
13:01
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, a little bit of all of the above in kind of a weird way.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, in hindsight, you're able to kind of track the moments or the things.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: But if you had asked me when I was working at that first agency if I was gonna start my own thing, I would have told you absolutely not.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: I do feel like I've kind of always had this drive or this fire within me of like I was gonna lead something.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: But to me, I was like, oh, that could be like a high level at a corporate company or that, like I just never, it was never like, oh, I'm definitely going to be an entrepreneur.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: But I do, in hindsight, like look back, and every single move I've made has led me to exactly where I am.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: So I think it like all kind of lined up perfectly to put me here.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And I always wanted to lead, wanted to have a big impact.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: That that has definitely always been true.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: Almost to the point where when I was thinking about what I was gonna do next, leaving the last acquisition in like winter of 2024 into the beginning of 2025, I I've tried to leave corporate so many times.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm just gonna go do my own thing.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe I'll do coaching or do what you know, whatever.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, kind of I've always had these fantasies of like, oh, I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna do my own thing.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: And then the opportunity to start archive came up.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: And it was like about the third time in my career where I tried to leave and I've been like pulled back in.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: And that's when I finally was just like, Oh, clearly I am meant to lead as a woman in this like more corporate male tech world.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't I don't have a great like reason or anything, but like I do feel like the signs have led me where I'm like, oh, this is you're where you're supposed to be, and like we prepared you for this.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Totally, yes.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: It's always that like the wisdom that comes with the ability to look back, right?
15:01
SPEAKER_02: None of us can necessarily predict unless you have a very clear linear path for yourself and you know, right, you want to be a surgeon or you want to be, you know, in some kind of law.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: But I think for the majority of us, it's really in the being able to look at those kind of mile markers and and connect the dots.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it takes years, and sometimes, you know, it can be, and of course it always evolves, but it's such a it's such a great way, I think, of getting to know ourselves as we're moving into the next season to be able to go, okay, wait, I'm starting to see how everything's stacking up in a way to bring me where I'm going.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm definitely somebody, and I can kind of see this more clearly now, where like I'm very, I'm like wired to look for the opportunity, and I've definitely raised my hands for raised my hand for things like before I was ready.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: So that has been true throughout, like going all the way back to like I my first I started in the this industry as an inside sales rep.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: Like I always joke, like the worst job ever, like just dialing the phones, grit gritting your teeth and smiling and dialing, like so hard, but build so much character.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: And I I pretty much begged our head of account management at the time to hire me onto her team, which would have been like it was essentially like a skip level.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: I had never done the job before.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: I was like, please, I can do it.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, I know I can do this job.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: And like she took a bet on me.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: And if I had never, some of those clients I managed as an individual account manager at that job are my clients today at my age.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's amazing.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: So, like it just again, like raising your hand before you're ready, looking for the opportunity, like those are all things that are true about me that I know have led me.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: This is a bit of a random question, so so go with me here.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: And I asked because you mentioned being a chief of staff, and I also was a chief of staff for you know a while, and I get the question a lot, and I find it so interesting of like, should they go for that role?
16:58
SPEAKER_02: People are really curious about what that title even entails.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: And I always tell people, well, first of all, it depends on the company, and it really depends on like right, you can be the chief of staff to the CEO, you can be the chief of staff to the entire executive team, you can be the chief of staff to the entire company, right?
17:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, there's so many different ways to like chop it up, but I do always my only advice to people if they're considering that path is be really clear and intentional about what you think that title means and like work in collaboration around because I held it in two different companies and they were vastly different experiences.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: So for anybody that might be thinking about that trajectory for their career or interested in that title, any advice or what you would share about your own experience that might help?
17:44
SPEAKER_00: I love this question because I do it's this very the chief of staff is a very what's the word?
17:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say ambiguous, but mystical.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Like it's like it's just different everywhere, which to your point, I've only done it once at one in one situation.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: So you having done it in two different situations even speaks to that more.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: But the first thing I'll say is my it's my favorite job I've ever had.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: I know I know I think a couple things.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: One, I think you really need to know yourself.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: You need to have a really clear understanding of yourself, your strengths, your gaps.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, because the ambiguity can be really hard for a lot of people.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: You have to be able to absorb and manage a high level of ambiguity and a high level of chaos, I would imagine.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's probably true across no matter what, totally no matter what.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: The second thing I would say is I think you really need to get to know your principal.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: So, like the person you're supporting.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, that could be multiple people, it could be a chief revenue officer, it could be a CEO, it could be at a small startup, it could be at a in a large global company.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Again, that can look a lot of different ways.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: But I actually think, at least in my situation, I worked for my CEO as a our head of account management before I became his chief of staff.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: So we already had a working rapport, a working relationship that it made a lot of sense for me to take on that role.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: But I think you really need to know that person and what you're getting into because you're usually doing more than just what the job requires.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God, 100%.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: I I called myself in my first iteration, I was like his translator.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: That's what it was like, I am taking your chaos and trying to regulate in a way.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and also be able to literally be able to speak to it in a way that other folks, like our board chair, he'd be like, okay, tell me what we're actually doing.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: And I'd be like, okay, let's break it down, right?
19:42
SPEAKER_00: And you, I mean, I think the thing that like doesn't really get talked about also is like you absorb a lot.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: So like your emotional center like has to be pretty clear and you have to be able to separate what's yours versus what's somebody else's.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: And like, that's not a skill that a 22-year-old out of college has necessarily.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's a lot of cultivation around that.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: The last thing I'll say on the chief of staff topic is I'm actually in this women in retail think tank for AI.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: It's really interesting.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: But the reason I bring it up is we're the whole think tank's objective is to uh track and see signals before the market catches up.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: And something that we are seeing already through the data and the research that across all these different people we have engaged across the we're specifically looking at retail, but it's retail and technology, is the chief of staff role is becoming even more important with AI.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, because companies need these integrators, and things are so much more cross-functional.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: So there's really an opportunity for chiefs of staffs to rise into taking on a higher level organizational role because AI is just disrupting so much of how work gets done.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: That's so fascinating.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's so real.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: One of my clients right now, they're they went, they just grew gangbusters over five years.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: And so trying to like help them navigate this current moment as they look to the next five years to make sure, right, that like things are kind of pulled together in a way that will set them up for success.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: And we were just talking yesterday, and I said, you know, you're missing that kind of like layer of glue, and exactly what you're saying, that kind of like the integrator and the way to kind of like make sure, right, the change management side of the house that takes such an intentional amount of energy.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: And so many folks at the leadership level, frankly, don't have that kind of time.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: And so to have somebody that can actually hold so much of that is really tricky because it's also the person that's thinking strategically and is organized, right?
21:49
SPEAKER_02: There's so many different components to it.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: And I I think I think women are really well suited for it specifically, and I do think there's like a like Like when you have a male, like I was a C in a CEO dynamic, but like when you have a male CEO and then like a female chief of staff behind them, like I actually really think that's a magical combination because you're getting like we all have masculine and feminine qualities, right?
22:15
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we over-index one versus the other, but like I think it really balances like just the leadership of an organization because you've kind of got somebody like bringing in the people perspective, bringing in the you know, managing like like a big part of what I did was like the other leaders would like call me and be able to like vent about theirs.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: So then you're kind of like bringing that in and like filtering up what matters.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And I just think there's a really magical thing that happens when you have a balance of like the masculine and feminine energies together.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: As long as there's a balance, I will say with one slight caveat that mine turned into a not great dynamic because there are for all the reasons around, and none none of it was like nefarious or ill-intentioned, but I think because I your point was so great around knowing yourself, because I think at that stage of my career I didn't, and I didn't totally know how to like own my own space, and so that can also be really tricky.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: That can be tricky for anybody, absolutely, regardless.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: But I think there are moments that I look back on and go, oh wow, I really let myself get molded in ways that were not actually setting me up for success, and so it's an interesting.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: I I feel like we could probably do a part two.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I love the chief of staff topic.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: So you went there.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: So much, so much to talk about.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: I know because it really is fun though.
23:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I it's fun, I went from in my last chief of staff role, I then moved into the COO role, which, you know, on paper is the coolest thing, and it was great, and I'm so grateful for that experience.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, the chief of staff role was so much more fun.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was like so much more exciting, and so much it was just so dynamic, and there's something new every single day.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: And I went from with the chief of staff role, so many times you're like have your hands in the like dirt of the thing.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: Whereas at the time I shifted out of that, and I was really just managing teams for the most part and managing departments.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: I was like, Oh, I'm not doing anything anymore.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: This isn't fun anymore.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: No, I I my favorite job I've ever had still too.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious for you, like it's an also a really interesting moment because you're really close to the transition from going, you know, chief of staff, executive level, corporate to building your own business.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: And so many of the women that I work with and talk to are kind of like navigating that moment where they're asking themselves, like, I maybe not even asking themselves, they're giving themselves permission to say, you know what, I don't think I want to be on this corporate track anymore.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: I've spent, you know, 20, 30 years building my my career, but I don't see this being what I want to do forever.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: I think there's something in me that like is ready to build on my own, or I'm ready to like, you know, have a different lifestyle because this corporate, you know, stuff, all the bureaucracy you were talking about earlier, for whatever reason, they are looking at the next season of their life a little differently.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I'm working with one client right now who is going to make the transition, and so we're working through the planning for that.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: But when you think about that transition for yourself, like, what was the hardest part about going from, you know, having a very clearly, even though the chief of staff role is not clearly defined, as we just shared, but you do still have goals and deliverables, and you know, like right kind of what's of you.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, how was that transition for you?
25:36
SPEAKER_02: And what do you think was the most challenging piece of that?
25:41
SPEAKER_02: Hey, quick pause before we get back into it.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: If you're listening to conversations like this one and something keeps nudging you, like I know I'm at some kind of turning point, I just can't quite see it clearly yet.
25:53
SPEAKER_02: That's actually exactly what I do.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: I work with women leaders who are in the middle of something: a career shift, a business that's ready to evolve, a moment where what got you here just isn't cutting it anymore.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes what you need most isn't a whole program or a big engagement.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: You just need a few hours with someone who can help you see what you're too close to see yourself.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: That's the clarity session.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: It's a focused, one-on-one conversation where we dig into where you are, where you want to go, and what's actually in the way.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: You walk away with real direction, not a list of homework, but genuine clarity on your next move.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: If that sounds like what you need right now, I'd love to talk.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: You can find all the details at Beldenstrategies.com slash clarity.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I that's a really good question.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: I haven't really thought about it from that perspective before.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: The first thing that kind of pops into my head is like you just have to have a very high level of like accountability and responsibility.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: There's nobody, you don't really have anybody to answer to.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: I do have a board, so like I technically have somebody to answer to, but like day to day, there's nobody like telling me what needs to be done.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
27:01
SPEAKER_00: You have to really own your time and own your, you know, sales and delivery and operations and finances and whatever the thing may be.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: And there's tons of different types of businesses, and like me growing and scaling an agency is a little bit different than if somebody's gonna start their own consulting and like that's kind of a different business model.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: So it's there's there's nuances there to that.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: But I think like again, it kind of goes back to like knowing yourself and really knowing are are do you have what it takes, and like when it's really hard, can you keep going?
27:36
SPEAKER_00: I think is like the the biggest thing.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: Like when you don't really have anybody.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: I think the one of the biggest things in a corporate environment that I I mean, I don't know, maybe it gets talked about.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: I haven't really talked about it before, but it's like you always have somebody to rub up against.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's your peers, your team, your boss, your director, you know, what there's always somebody to pressure test and help, you know, and there's lines, and when you start your own thing, no, it's yeah, it's you and you.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: And then you might eventually grow your team and bring in rational people.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: The book stops or that it stops at you no matter what, even if you build a team, right?
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: And I think again, you kind of have to, and I think you get made throughout the process.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: It's not either you have it or you don't.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: I think so much of the journey is you go on the journey and you find out what you're made of.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Like we were saying, Rome is not built in a day, and can you keep the faith when you feel like it doesn't look like anything's happening?
28:34
SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think that's what really it come it comes down to.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think for just going specifically for me on that topic, I think we talked about this when we first talked, but I've been sober for 10 years, and that's a huge part of my personal journey, personal story, and happy to talk about that too.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: But for me, that was the hardest thing I've ever done.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: So starting a bit coming.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: You're like, I got this.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and not not to sound like No, I get what you're saying, explain it or whatever, but it's like that was literally the hardest thing I've ever done.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: And the amount of personal responsibility, dedication, self-control, standards, like so much has gone into that that I was like, I I can do that, I'll be up on this.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: You're like, I yes, yes, no, I think you're so right.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: And I do have that on my list of things to talk about because, you know, part of that to me also, you know, it it taps a bit into this idea around female, female intuition that we've talked about and that you've talked about.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna park that for one second because I think the important piece that you're touching on is something we had talked about earlier as well, which is, you know, the best things typically, and it sounds again so cliche, but they truly do take the time.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: It takes time to do those.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: It's the same with the friendship, it's the same with the business.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: Like you want to see those things through.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: I feel like we live in a culture where it's so easy to say, oh, we had a disagreement, we're cutting that off.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: Like, or that's toxic or whatever.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: And I certainly am not advocating for staying in any kind of toxic or abusive relationships.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: But I think so much of the storyline, more and more, is oh, toxic.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: I'm done.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh, that's not for me.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't like that.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm out of this process.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: It's like if you're gonna jump ship as soon as you think it feels a little icky, then you know, it's gonna be a long road because really you can't, you cannot see what it's gonna be until you've taken the time in the same way that you've shared too.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: You let your client tell you what the business is gonna be in some ways.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: You don't know necessarily until you're out there trying it.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: And so the real beauty of it comes after, you know, a few years, a few seasons, and when you can start to see that pattern emerge.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: And I I guess I'm just coming into this realization for myself that I'm now talking about this and even differently for myself, where it's like, no, this is an intentional way of living.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: It's not just like about the business.
30:59
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, some of my dearest friendships are ones that we've had some hard stuff, you know, but we've had the hard conversations and we've dealt with it.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: And now that then shapes and molds that relationship in a way where we trust each other.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: And I think the same with the business.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: You now get to trust your business because you've done the hard stuff.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: So it's a little woo-woo, but I think it's I am this kind of theme around knowing yourself, female intuition, right?
31:29
SPEAKER_02: You have shared with me, you know, how having an all-male board also means you have to really sit with things for yourself and make sure that you're checking in with yourself instead of just blindly following advice or directives.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: You shared with me how in your first board meeting after raising money, you reversed the company's planned kind of partner tech direction with zero data, just your intuition.
31:52
SPEAKER_02: And told the board that.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I I love it.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: I I think it's great.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: But maybe, yeah, share a little bit about what that's looked for you, looked like for you and how you now think about what it means to be honing your own, you know, intuition as you lead a company, you know, over the next however, you know, long the season is with archive.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: No, it's such a good question.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm I'm kind of even stuck on what you were just sharing about with the the business and the friendship.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: And for me, the parallels of building a business and then building my I was 10-year sober in May, so it's been a decade.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: But it's the parallels are just so strong.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, and now I'm thinking I write a lot on Substack about this, and now I'm like, I feel like there's a whole piece here about this.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna have to have to like circle back to this.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: But there's just so many parallels.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: And even to just use an example, I didn't really feel confident in my sobriety until year four.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, and so when you think about a business, it's like, okay, you might be getting some deals and like moving things along, but it's like, when do you really feel like you have a business?
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, is it year three?
33:10
SPEAKER_00: Is it year four?
33:10
SPEAKER_00: Is it year 10?
33:11
SPEAKER_00: Is it like, and that's a whole different conversation around what constitutes success and like how, but just this idea of like you you don't feel ready.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: You don't feel, I mean, there was early days of sobriety where I was, you know, I was in my mid-20s.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: I was getting invited to weddings, getting invited to go out with college friends.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: I lived in Chicago at the time, and I was showing up and I was like miserable inside because I was like, this is so not me.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how to act.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm not the same person, like who am I without alcohol?
33:40
SPEAKER_00: Just the the imposter syndrome around that.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, fast forward 10 years.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting in a client pitch or whatever.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: It's a chief technology officer or chief digital officer of a global company, and I'm like, who am I to be here?
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Like the imposter syndrome, like it's back, yeah.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like the the the parallels are just so similar.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: And that's just one example.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure I could come up with 10 more.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: But to your point, it's so much of sobriety is like learning to sit with the uncomfortable feeling anyway.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Totally and not numb it.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: And can I sit with the anxiety or sit with the mean comment a family member makes at Thanksgiving, but then show up the next morning in relationship with them because that's what you do when you learn to work through your feelings and take responsibility and not just assume everyone's out to get you, or you know, whatever.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: We all have our like cha cha or whatever we think about the world or our families.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm sure everybody has a version of that.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: But so much of sobriety is like building that muscle and building that capacity.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: And like it's the exact same in the business.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: Like you have to build the capacity to have the hard conversations, have a disagreement with a board member or an employee and show up the next day and work with that person, you know?
34:56
SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's the it's just the I I again I didn't know at the time that the translation that like it was preparing me for this, but like here we are, and I'm so grateful.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: And it, it, you know, it did not happen overnight.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: It was it's been 10 long years of like earning, earning the happiness and like earning the joy and earning all the stuff that comes after you kind of excavate and clear yourself out and like realize, at least in my case, like what I'm really made of, outside of just being somebody who like used alcohol to have a good time and like numb my feelings, you know.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it reminds me of my very favorite leader that I worked for, led us through the company through you know COVID years and early days.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: Actually, maybe it was like even during the insurrection, there was like a moment in time when like everything felt like the world was like the world was falling over.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: And everybody was like, whoa.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: And we worked for like a very progressive leaning company, right?
35:56
SPEAKER_02: So like people were really feeling it at the moment.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: And I remember she brought us all together, I think there was like 800 of us at that point on staff, and so we would do these like weekly town halls just to kind of keep people, you know, connected during a time when everyone felt so disconnected.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: And she said, and she's she's such an interesting thinker in general, but she had shared, you know, we're all building a muscle you don't even know you need yet.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: And it was such, I think about that all the time, and how it is so true that I now look back at those years and go, oh my gosh, so much of what built for the foundation that I'm at today.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: I actually don't think I could do had I not gone through some of those harder experiences.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: And then same thing when that same company imploded three years ago and everything fell apart and blew up in our face.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: That was yet another thing that at the time felt almost insurmountable just because of the nuance, and that's a whole other layered conversation for another time.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: But again, I now look at that and go, okay, wouldn't be the version of myself today for that.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: And so how you keep going through those and not becoming angry and bitter and like frustrated, right?
37:10
SPEAKER_02: We all go through those feelings, but to never hold on to it and let it like shape us and mold us and actually find our way through it.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, I would imagine a journey of sobriety has some similar moments of going, okay, I just have to trust myself a hundred percent.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, yes.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: And I also think it's like you it's a choice.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: That perspective you just shared is a choice.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Being like, oh, this thing was really hard, but I'm through it, and I'm choosing to see that as something that contributed positively to like where I'm at today that I can build on, and like because of that, I now have this capacity and can navigate.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't think everybody chooses that.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: I think some people do choose to wallow in or be like, oh, this has been so hard for me, or whatever.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: And I again, sobriety really builds a strong muscle of personal responsibility.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: So like it's kind of like you chose your life and you chose this, so you are the only person that can get you out of it.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: So that has definitely like colored my worldview a little bit, but like I I think it's a choice, and I think when you choose even future facing to associate positively with those previously like negative experiences, it just makes everything easier.
38:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes.
38:26
SPEAKER_02: Is there anything um that you found out about yourself like early years of sobriety that you thought was either surprising or that you were like, oh, hey, that's interesting.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that about myself, or like anything that kind of you unearthed that you thought was interesting.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: It's it's that it's a great question.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: It's I I was so young.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: Like I was 23 when I quit drinking.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I kind of joke, like I was like a teenage alcoholic.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: Like was kind of my joke, which was like terrible, but um I it's it's like your 20s are such a uh intense period of finding yourself anyway.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: I think for anybody, like drinking or not drinking, like yeah, so I I I have this, I I used to lead a lot of sober women's groups in my 20s when I was in Chicago, and something we talked about a lot was like nobody tells you how hard your 20s are.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Like nobody prepares you for moving to a city, potentially starting a job.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: It's like you're with friends, but then some people start seriously dating.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: So like that becomes a thing, and people start paring off, and then you've got some friends that are getting married, you've got friends that aren't even thinking about like there's just a lot you're trying to get promoted or excel in your career.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's just so much happening in that decade.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a a period of navigating no matter what.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: I think for me, it was really about finding out who I was without alcohol.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: I a lot of my life and my social life revolved around drinking.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: So, like learning to have fun at things that I previously would drink at was like a big unlock for me.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm like, I can do anything.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: Like I can do anything, I will go anywhere.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Like we have a trade show in Vegas, like you'll find me out at the club, like I I will go anywhere.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: There's like nothing off limits.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: Like I still love, I think like the biggest thing would be like I still love to go out and have a good time.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like enjoy a concert, enjoy a show.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, I like just because I j drinking wasn't the only reason I liked those things.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: That's an interesting revelation, sure.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think because sometimes we don't even consider that, right?
40:36
SPEAKER_02: Right?
40:36
SPEAKER_02: Like it's not something we're thinking about consciously when we're engaging with the world in that way.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's just a product of that experience in so many ways, right?
40:44
SPEAKER_02: Not for everyone, obviously, but like for so many folks.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: And I'm definitely an extroverted person in general.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: So, like kind of just coming back to center around that and being like, oh, this is actually just who I am, who I am at my core.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: Has your idea of success evolved over the years?
41:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I definitely entered the job market out of college, like thinking like, oh, you just climbed the corporate ladder.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: And like I came from a family where like my dad worked at the same company for 40 years.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: Like that's just what you do, right?
41:18
SPEAKER_00: So this idea of bouncing around, going like running towards the next opportunity, becoming an entrepreneur, like yeah, I think it's all that it's all been success in my mind in one way or another, and I don't even know what the next year, two years, five years, ten years of that like will look look like.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: And I'm again, I'm kind of like a optimistic leaning person.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: So I'm very like, I'm open to see what what comes and what it what it looks like.
41:48
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I love that so much.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: I think it's I ask that question because I think I keep calling it the like you're st you're still you know younger in your path, but there's you know, some of us that are in, let's say women of a certain age, we like to call ourselves, right?
42:03
SPEAKER_02: Like mid-40s to mid-50s, where there's almost this not for everyone, again, I'm not trying to blanket statement anything, but thematically it does feel like there's a bit of like almost a reckoning happening around.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: There is okay, wait a second.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: I did all this shit and I built this thing, or I like have given my body and soul to this company and like also my body and soul to raising a family or you know, building a community, like whatever that looks like for you.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, and waking up and going, wait a second, like is this?
42:33
SPEAKER_00: I will say, like, I definitely like so I definitely had that moment.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: So in winter of 2024, going into like January of 2025, right before Archive became a an idea that that we, you know, brought to the world.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: I was at I was at one of the WPV agencies that we had been acquired into.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: I had a very good job.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: I was high up, I was like two levels below the global CEO.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, I was what I kind of would explain to my friends, I was very much in like a golden handcuff situation.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: Like I was like, I can stay here, I'm gonna have the best insurance, I can have a couple kids, I can take three to six months of maternity throughout the next decade a couple of times, that that's what I want.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: Again, with sobriety, with other things.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: I not saying I live an alternative lifestyle by any means, but I've kind of been forced to think outside the box.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: Like getting sober at 23 when like all your friends are drinking and partying every weekend, like kind of like, okay, my life is gonna look a little different, you know?
43:31
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I kind of had a capacity for that already.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: I was like, anyways.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: And I what real what it really came down to was I was just like, I will be so mad at myself if I don't try.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: Like I will be, I was like, if I look back 10, 20 years from now and I don't try going it on my own, like corporate will always be there.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: Like I can always that's just what I am like, I can always you can always go back.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Like you can always go back if you fail and go back.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: Like I do not intend that to happen.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: No, I
44:00
SPEAKER_02: I know, but I hear what you're saying, yes.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: Because I think that we tend to, two of my dearest friends are gonna move their family likely to either Lisbon or Spain next summer because they've been living in a community that's not working for them.
44:12
SPEAKER_02: And it's like a whole conversation that's happening.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, there's this piece around what you think your life, especially, you know, if if you're moving in a certain direction and their kids are at the kind of like junior high elementary school age, and so we can tell ourselves these things around, okay, well, I have to stay because of X, Y, and Z.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: Or it has to look like this because this is the way it's been modeled for me over the years or what I've seen.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: And I I'm literally stealing this quote from something and I don't know where it's from, but it's we're all wild animals living in cages with the door wide open.
44:47
SPEAKER_02: And it's like that is so that in the same way, they're thinking differently about what their whole lifestyle might look like.
44:55
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, it doesn't have to look like you live in this space and it maps like this forever.
45:01
SPEAKER_02: And so what, to your point, if it in a year they're like, you know what?
45:04
SPEAKER_02: That was a terrible idea.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, what were we thinking?
45:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay, fine.
45:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you move on to what's next, but you're still gonna be informed by that decision, whether it's whether it was a great experience or a not great experience.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I always like I always like to say too, like, I feel very privileged for a couple of reasons.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: One, because I've been able to learn from like the I always say like Gen X, I'm a millennial.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: It's like I've I've been paying attention, watching.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: I've I've been able to learn a lot from the generation of women that have paved, like from boomers and Gen X that have like paved the corporate world before me.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: So like I do feel like I've been able to kind of make some of these decisions on an accelerated timeline because I've I've been able to learn from the people, the women that have gone before me.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing on that is I don't have kids right now.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: Like my husband does have a stable job.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: I was in a perfect life scenario to take a risk.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't like take that for granted either.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: Like it just happened to be the way my life lined up in this particular moment to be able to say, Yes, I'm gonna quit corporate and bet on myself and and take this chance because you know, if I look back at my life, I'll I'll regret if I don't.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: But uh a lot of things lined up for me to feel confident doing that.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: But it's also in being able to pay attention to when those moments happen and being able to take advantage of it, right?
46:33
SPEAKER_02: So, yes, those things can be true, but it doesn't mean that you then were gonna automatically take advantage of it.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I could have talked if I thought about it a little too hard, I could have talked myself into the corporate benefits, golden handcoat, nice stable situation.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: Which I'm also like, hey, everybody, nothing is stable or guaranteed much longer.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: I was just talking to someone about that last week.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, we're like, it's all an illusion.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: It's just an illusion of safety.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: Like the corporate company is an illusion of safety, entrepreneur, like we're all it's just an illusion.
47:04
SPEAKER_02: There's no such thing, yes, but we are humans that need safety, and so I understand it, right?
47:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, and so to actively put ourselves into you know situations or whatever that feel risky, um, you know, it goes against our literal nature.
47:18
SPEAKER_02: So I totally the risk of opening Pandora's box, I have two questions for you.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: One that I always end with, but one is around kind of your take on women and AI right now.
47:32
SPEAKER_02: And I'm interested in this because we touched on this a little bit in our first chat.
47:36
SPEAKER_02: And there's that kind of like urgency versus versus caution gap, right?
47:40
SPEAKER_02: Like we talked about how if we don't want, you know, if anyone's read the book Invisible Women and how so many things in our world have been built around data that is not related to women at all, and it's all based on, you know, gender that has nothing to do with our own.
47:55
SPEAKER_02: I my and I don't know this world.
47:58
SPEAKER_02: This is not something I am an expert in, but I do I do fear just a bit that we're gonna have yet another example of a technology that's being built with again, if men are the majority of the users of this technology at this moment, it's literally being created again with their data that they're feeding into it, their conversations that they're feeding into it.
48:19
SPEAKER_02: I also understand on the other side, right, how women are concerned about the environment.
48:23
SPEAKER_02: Not that it's not just a woman thing, right?
48:25
SPEAKER_02: But like I do hear that from a lot of my female clients around like, well, and so I'm not in the business of trying to convince anyone because it has to be a personal choice on how you decide how you're gonna navigate, especially a technology that can disrupt industries, right?
48:40
SPEAKER_02: Like one of my nearest and dearest is one of the most creative, one of the most talented, one of the most like unbelievably incredible designers that you could ever meet, right?
48:48
SPEAKER_02: And so there's a lot of stuff around industries that are gonna be, you know, looking at what does this mean for my own personal contribution.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: So there's so much nuance here.
48:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm not trying to strip it down to black and white, but I do still think underneath all of that is my, but ladies, we gotta be part of shaping what is inevitably happening, regardless of how we feel about it.
49:09
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm curious just kind of what your base level take is on that.
49:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is such Pandora's box.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: It's so nuanced.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm by no means a quantum large language model expert, right?
49:23
SPEAKER_02: Like I, you know, this is not a I think that's why we have to be talking about it because we don't want to leave it to just the ones that do, right?
49:30
SPEAKER_02: I think it's important that we're all fumbling around this a little bit and maybe saying things that in a few months we go, you know what, that's actually not my take anymore.
49:39
SPEAKER_02: That has to be okay.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: I very much fall in your camp.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn, I've done videos on Instagram.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, I I am like in the camp of like women get on board or get left behind.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: Like the train is leaving the station and we have been left behind like dot com boom, like so many things where, like, again, whether it was just because we didn't have as many women in the workplace, like you can go into all the reasons why necessarily, but like this is a I firmly believe this is a pivotal moment in the way that we work, live, engage that will fundamentally change a lot of the way things are done going forward in my lifetime and you know, future generations' lifetime.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think it is our responsibility as women to engage.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: I think we have to because we are the ones I actually would take it even further.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think women are innately suited to have an impact here because there's there's so much data and there's so much, like it can always be about the data, but like that doesn't translate into it, kind of goes back to the chief of staff conversation.
50:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, that doesn't translate into like how work gets done, how organizations get designed.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: How do we then talk about like disrupting organizational structures cross-functionally?
50:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, that is where women like we inherently live in the gaps, we live in the nuance, we live in the subtext, we pick up on the vibes and the feelings.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: Again, not to get like too woo-woo, but that's like that's like where AI is gonna need, like, we I was actually again on this like think tank, and like we started talking about like people are saying like human in the loop, and we've started saying like human in the lead.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: And that is like just so I think important, but and it's yeah, you can talk about the environment, you can talk about anything.
51:32
SPEAKER_00: And I always I say this again in jest, but I think it's it's very serious.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: It's like the guys aren't gonna slow down, they're not worried about it.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: We have enough, we have enough proof over hundreds of years to know when there is profit in sight and power, and it's like they're not slowing down.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: So then it's like, what do what do we what are we gonna do?
51:53
SPEAKER_02: What's our role in that?
51:53
SPEAKER_02: We have to do that.
51:54
SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's the thing.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's the question is that we just at least all need to be asking ourselves, what is our role in it?
52:01
SPEAKER_02: Right?
52:01
SPEAKER_02: Like maybe it's not necessarily a blanket recommendation around how to use it or why or whatever, but it's like at least have some ability to navigate what it means to to be involved in whatever way, shape, or form makes sense for you, but to at least not just put our head in the sand and pretend like it's not happening.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: I agree with that.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: And I also think it's about consciously engaging, and I also think it comes down to two, like lifestyle and like what what life are you choosing to live?
52:31
SPEAKER_00: So, like, for example, you talked about your friend wanting to move to Spain or to Portugal, and it's like, yeah, if I was a stay-at-home mom with six kids and I didn't really need to think about that because that just wasn't my life, or you know, whatever.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm choosing a different career path, or I'm I'm a songwriter, you know, you choose a life where you can kind of get away with not engaging necessarily.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: But it's like I work in technology, yeah.
52:57
SPEAKER_00: I have chosen this field, like I have chosen to be fully in this camp for this season of life, or you know, whatever.
53:05
SPEAKER_00: But it's like I I'm making that choice.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: So then it's like, how am I, you know, you want to talk about the environment?
53:11
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, well, we can talk about that like a lot of different ways.
53:14
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm in retail.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, do we want to talk about consumerism?
53:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's a whole different conversation.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: So it's just where do we draw the line and what are we willing to tolerate?
53:23
SPEAKER_00: But like I really do feel like we have a responsibility to engage.
53:27
SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting.
53:28
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I feel like, yeah, so many things for our round two of this conversation that I can't wait to do.
53:32
SPEAKER_02: I know I feel like I've opened, I we've opened a lot of the uh but I don't want to miss the opportunity because I feel you know you've kind of been building to this question, which is you know what I ask every woman on the show, and it's around legacy.
53:45
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's you know, that term can be trendy, it can also be something that feels a little heavy, but I like to think of it more as the light thing that we get to be building every day and something that we're just intentionally building toward.
53:58
SPEAKER_02: And it's you know, not necessarily about just when we leave this version of Earth or whatever it is, you know, how we are showing up and what we want to be doing and the impact we want to have.
54:08
SPEAKER_02: And so for you, I would just love to know what does building a legacy mean to you.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: I love this question, such a good one.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: I feel very strongly about being a woman, conscious, sober, leading in the corporate world.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: I feel, I feel like part of my legacy, and it's a big part of why I started Archive and like took the opportunity was I just really felt like it was important for other women, younger women, to see women like me leading in this space.
54:43
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
54:44
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: Kind of like be the example you want to see in the world.
54:48
SPEAKER_02: And you're doing it.
54:48
SPEAKER_02: Like, how great is that?
54:50
SPEAKER_02: How amazing does it feel, even when it's hard, but to wake up every day knowing some days are easier than others.
54:56
SPEAKER_02: I know, I know.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, some days it's like depends.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: That's why I love conversations like this too.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, and I think we talked about this the first time.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like if one person listens and are like, oh, that's inspiring to me, I'm like, oh, yes, cool, amazing.
55:11
SPEAKER_02: A hundred.
55:11
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I know, I know.
55:13
SPEAKER_02: I think so much more about that lately, too, around for so long, especially given the like social media influencer, you know, whatever, it's been about numbers and reach and you know, all these things and impressions or whatever.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: And I really feel like, and maybe this is just a selfish take on it, but I think we're moving more into a what does it actually mean to be seen in spaces that you actually care to be seen in versus the community piece.
55:41
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
55:42
SPEAKER_02: And like, you know, the impact that can be had at a smaller scale, that doesn't mean the impact is any less.
55:48
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's even deeper because that one person heard that one thing in your story, right?
55:53
SPEAKER_02: You talk we covered a lot of govern a lot of ground today, right?
55:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, sometimes people are like, Well, what do you want me to talk about?
55:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't know, we're gonna talk about all kinds of people.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna we're just gonna go all over and see how it turns out because you just never know.
56:04
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes what I hear from people, like the tiny little tidbit that they got from one woman's, you know, experience is not anything I would have expected from the story that somebody would take it from.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: And so you're like, you know, it just lands in that moment for whatever reason.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think it's incredible.
56:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited that I did a little cold outreach to somebody that I thought looked super cool.
56:26
SPEAKER_02: And I'm a sales girl.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm I I came up in sales, I'm all for the cold outreach.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, yes.
56:32
SPEAKER_02: As long as you do it with respect and not in a creepy weird way, where I get amen.
56:36
SPEAKER_02: Way too much of that shit in my inbox, too.
56:38
SPEAKER_02: Where I'm like, no, I don't want your whatever thing.
56:41
SPEAKER_02: Like what are you talking about?
56:44
unknown: I know.
56:45
SPEAKER_02: It's so good to see you again.
56:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this was so fun.
56:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, ditto.
56:49
SPEAKER_02: Part two.
56:50
SPEAKER_02: That's something.
56:50
SPEAKER_02: Yes, anytime.
56:52
SPEAKER_02: Good to see you.
56:53
SPEAKER_02: Have a good rest of the day.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
56:55
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
56:56
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
56:58
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for listening and spending some of your time with me here.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: I hope our conversation sparked some new ideas for you.
57:06
SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed the episode, please make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss what's next.
57:10
SPEAKER_02: And if you're ready for even more tools and stories, head on over to beldenstrategies.com slash newsletter.
57:19
SPEAKER_02: I share fresh insights, stories, and tools for women leaders every week.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: Until next time, keep building, keep evolving, and remember that you are kind of a big deal.