Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Web of Fear (2/6)

Transcript

Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Web of Fear (2/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a blunt. Pen knife for doing quicker
0:35
quicker. Hello and welcome back to a
0:39
hamster with a blunt pen knife, The Doctor Who X-Files, Doctor
0:43
Who book Star Trek. Because everything, I mean every
0:47
that that basically, I don't know how you do this, Joe, but
0:50
the listener. Hello, listener.
0:51
I'm Toby. I'm a guest watching the web
0:55
affair with Joe on this particular segment of hamster
0:58
with a blunt pen knife. But in recording terms, this is
1:01
the second one I've done on consecutive nights.
1:05
I was, I was waltzing around Season 8 yesterday as we record
1:10
this. So I've done two in a row and
1:12
I'm absolutely exhausted. This is Joe's life.
1:15
And he also said, Oh yeah. And it only took me an hour and
1:17
a quarter to to edit that one from yesterday.
1:20
It's like, how do you fit it all in?
1:22
I actually woke up at 2:00 in the morning.
1:24
I was doing it at sort of 3:00 this morning 0.
1:27
God Almighty I. Mean I went I went to work for 9
1:30
hours. I've had a snooze this
1:31
afternoon. Goodness me.
1:33
But then again, I did I I did have a bit of carbs, You know, I
1:36
have to have a snooze if I have a sandwich these days.
1:37
It comes to that, Joe. I'm a machine, Toby.
1:40
You are you are a podcasting a conveyor belt, but we don't need
1:46
I don't need too much extra oomph to deal with this
1:50
particular story, especially As for some of you who may be very
1:54
blase because it's been back for oh, ten years now, actually,
2:00
hasn't it? It's been back for the I
2:03
remember when all of this was burned.
2:07
I remember when this was Oblivion, when the idea that we
2:11
would watch anything of this story, would be able to see
2:14
anything of this story, bar us a couple of sensor clips that had
2:19
come via the good people of New Zealand and would was was an
2:24
impossible dream. And so isn't this exciting that
2:28
we can now actually get it at the touch of a button?
2:30
I watched that documentary last week.
2:33
For some reason Mark wanted to put it on, you know, with that
2:36
lovely Australian man who's clearly never been in front of a
2:38
camera before, talking about the sensor clips.
2:41
And there was a very amusing moment where our Ian, let's call
2:46
him our Ian, is apoplectic at the thought that any complete
2:51
stories could ever be found now, because they would have been
2:54
found, you know. Yeah, yeah, I know.
2:57
I absolutely, you know, was was with him on that because I've
3:00
always been a glass half empty sort of chat.
3:03
Well, only metaphor, if only that in the metaphorical sense,
3:06
real life, unfortunately, but let's not get into that.
3:09
But yeah, because I always that my, my world view has always
3:12
been, oh, be pessimistic and then you'll be pleasantly
3:14
surprised. As I get older, I would like to
3:17
dispense any wisdom. I would say don't be like that.
3:19
Because to spend all your time expecting the worst just because
3:24
you might occasionally get surprised by life is not as good
3:27
as spending your time trying to look on the bright side and and
3:30
remaining in a positive frame of mind because it's a much better
3:34
way to spend your time. And if only I'd realized that a
3:37
little bit earlier, but nonetheless.
3:39
You found a format where you have enforced positivity, no?
3:44
God, it's ploying. Isn't it Doctor Who?
3:47
No, Come on, it's easy to be nice about Doctor.
3:50
Sucker in cloying. That's my.
3:53
Favorite other you're talking about?
3:55
But but I have to say that that I mean, I obsess more about
4:00
missing episodes than anything else.
4:02
I think, you know, I like every time I walk the dog pretty much.
4:06
I create fantasy scenarios where I'm managed to happen upon one,
4:10
or buy one, buy buy a batch from a car boot sale or raid some
4:17
mysterious warehouse in the north of England where there may
4:21
be hundreds residing as. Possible though, right?
4:25
If this happened 10 years ago, it's absolutely.
4:28
I mean, okay, this is a bit of an unfair question, but what
4:30
would be your dream find? How many are allowed?
4:34
1. One only allowed one.
4:37
Story. I would be desperate to see one.
4:39
Story. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4:41
Because you see, whenever I play this game, my go to would always
4:44
be to get a selection of individual episodes.
4:46
I don't really care about seeing a whole story.
4:49
I know how the story is in What I want to see is, you know,
4:53
examples of how a particular story might have looked, how a
4:57
particular performer might have been.
4:58
So if you were to say, if you'd given me a random selection, you
5:02
know, I would have definitely chosen episodes from different
5:04
stories. But this is I'm happy to go with
5:06
your because I see if you, if you say you get one story, you
5:11
know, I, I, I always like a bargain if even if I only want
5:14
one of something, if it's on buy 4, get one free.
5:17
I'll, I'll buy the the extra 3 that I don't need.
5:19
So I would I would have to go for Daleks master plan simply
5:22
because you get more. But if we're if we're to outlaw
5:27
value shopping, I would I would really like to see.
5:31
I think I love the idea of seeing myth makers and
5:36
massacres. That's mine.
5:37
Myth Makers is mine. I mean myth myth makers is just
5:42
because it's such a peculiar story, but in my heart of hearts
5:46
and and brilliant and really funny and really as well and and
5:50
because we have no telesnaps either.
5:52
But there's something about the fact that we've got nothing of
5:55
fury from the deep that makes me increasingly sad.
5:58
Fury from the deepest and and power is.
6:00
Very good. This is harder than our.
6:02
Power and Web were my 10 out of 10s for Trenton when I was
6:05
doing, when I was doing running through corridors.
6:08
And I think, I think Power is a bit of a cliche because it's the
6:12
Daleks and because it's the first Trenton.
6:14
And I, I sort of resist that and go, no, no.
6:16
There are stories that are more interesting than that.
6:18
But actually Power is really good in its own right as well.
6:24
But today I think just because I would like to see if the weed
6:29
creature actually works and because we don't have any full
6:32
episodes directed by Hugh David, who everyone who talks about him
6:36
says he was a fantastic director.
6:38
Today I want Fury from the deep, I think.
6:41
I mean, you just have to watch that one scene with Oaken Quilt,
6:44
right, where it's amazing and they're overlaying and it's the
6:48
silhouette of the screaming mouth and hurt.
6:50
I mean, it's just extraordinary direction.
6:53
It is phenomenal. And, and again, we're we're,
6:56
we're so often used to being disappointed by Doctor Who
6:59
because it's realisation does not match the pictures we
7:02
created in our heads. I had no idea that that scene
7:06
would be like and I watched that on a sunny afternoon.
7:08
I'd gone to WH Smith's especially to get it.
7:11
I'd got the bus on the way back and read the booklet and I was
7:14
going to watch the Ice Warriors, but not until I'd seen the
7:17
missing episodes documentary with all those sensor clips.
7:20
And I knew that there would be snatched moments.
7:22
And I and I'd seen the telesnap which is of Mr. Quill's face.
7:25
So I knew that he did something rather special.
7:27
I knew it was it was better than it it read in the book or
7:30
whatever. But the fact that it his, his
7:32
face gradually contorts and opens and the camera goes in and
7:36
and then it and then the way it cuts about, it's phenomenal.
7:40
And how many moments like that are the lost in the ether in
7:46
these many missing? I mean, you do get the opposite
7:49
as well. I always imagined I was like,
7:50
why? I've never seen a photo of
7:52
Professor Zarroff's octopus. And there's a scene in episode 2
7:56
where he talks to the octopus. You go, oh, no, he talks about
7:59
the octopus and then he feeds the fish.
8:01
And without changing the dialogue, they've kind of,
8:04
they've cheated that and you go, but that in itself is you go,
8:07
oh, right, OK. They've they've that's how I, I
8:10
fully believed he was talking to his octopus because that's
8:13
obviously what the writer intends.
8:15
But they've just gone without changing a line, they've just
8:18
gone, No talk about your octopus and then feed a fish that's in a
8:21
fish tank and you go, oh, brilliant.
8:23
So one. Though it goes the other way as
8:25
well, because sometimes you'll you'll imagine a scene listening
8:28
to the soundtrack and one of those sensor clips.
8:31
I saw it and I was like, Oh no. Like it was so much better in my
8:35
head. And it's a story you love and
8:37
it's I think it's a 9 or 10 out of 10 for you.
8:40
And I love the story, but it's the Macrotera.
8:43
And it's the bit where Anika Wills is struggling with the
8:46
prop and you can see she's trying to get her hands.
8:49
It's on the. Claw, she puts her, she puts her
8:52
foot inside and then Michael Crais has to hit it with an axe
8:55
without without hitting it with an axe.
8:57
So he hits it the wrong way round and with the base of the
9:00
axe because he can't. Yeah, yes, the, the, I mean, I
9:05
think the Macro terror is a, is a great story.
9:09
And again, John Davis is a really experienced and and
9:15
highly regarded director and it's his only Doctor Who.
9:18
So we don't have any episodes of who directed by him.
9:23
But I, I fear that the Macro will and and you know, we used
9:29
to sell those things. We were, we were told Tomb of
9:33
the Cybermen was really dark. It's it's never dark.
9:36
It's not a if Tomb of the Cybermen look like web of fear.
9:39
That's what I imagined it to look like.
9:40
All those shadows, all that film.
9:42
It's not like that at all. It's very grayscale.
9:44
So I remember being, oh, this is not what they told us, a
9:48
macrotere. It was supposed to be you barely
9:50
saw the Macra and it was always, there was always smoke and it
9:53
was just, I mean. Looming out there is.
9:56
Looming out of the darkness and then you see it.
9:58
There is no, it's front and center.
10:01
There's no it's, it's, it's not a, it's not a suggested
10:04
presence. It's a prop there with its big,
10:07
light up boggly eyes. And yeah, but there's enough.
10:11
There's enough because then it cuts a quick edit to there's
10:15
another one, and it's big close-ups on Ben and Polly.
10:17
I'm like, OK, so maybe it's just those shots of the creature and
10:20
the rest of it's all hugely atmospheric.
10:22
Those telesnaps make it look very atmospheric.
10:25
I, I mean, I look, if, if, if, if I walked past it at the local
10:30
car boot sale, as I very often do, I don't want to be
10:33
embarrassed by the backgrounds, I wouldn't be going.
10:35
Oh, you could keep that. Yeah, but it, I mean, I could
10:39
it's, it's, you know, I meet, in fact, I've met up with a friend
10:43
today and we, we went to watch the movie and then we went for a
10:48
very big stodgy pizza that is currently weighing very heavily
10:52
on my increasing girth. And we played the All right,
10:56
which 4 episodes would you have game without?
10:58
And I didn't bring it up. He did.
11:00
And he's younger than me, you know, but it's, it's the game
11:03
that you play, you know, it is a constant.
11:07
So it's and, and, and I guess it's, it's one of the ways that
11:12
through various fallow periods in the show's history, whether
11:17
it be to do with productivity or, you know, one's own like of
11:21
particular eras or, or the fact that there's not much going on
11:24
in the world of the show. The flame is kept alive by not
11:28
just, oh, is it going to come back and who's going to be
11:31
involved in what form? Which has always been obviously
11:34
a part of a part of it, but also are we going to get more clues,
11:39
photographs, clips, insights, episodes of of those bits that
11:44
are missing. And in my lifetime, we've gone
11:46
from, you know, having what, 130 odd missing episodes to having
11:51
97. So I've had lots of new first
11:54
nights which and I not. Unreasonable was it to think
11:58
that that that amount could jump down again?
12:02
Well, I, I mean, I, I think every year that goes by, it gets
12:06
less likely because even if they are out there, they're not
12:09
likely to survive if they're not kept in, in proper conditions.
12:12
And also, well, but you do, you do think I've just been going
12:17
through some, but my uncle picked up a, a load of things in
12:19
a car boot sale that were theatre programs and stuff,
12:21
because I find those things useful for actors, biogs and
12:24
things. But, but a lot of this, it was
12:25
this, this man's collection, a lot of it is Amdram stuff and a
12:29
lot of it is bits of paper. There's not particularly of
12:31
interest to me. And I contacted a few of the
12:33
old, the, the Amdram companies that, that, that this stuff
12:37
pertain to and, and they haven't replied.
12:40
And it's not of interest to me. And I kind of think, well, if,
12:44
if the fat guy's family have got rid of them and these companies
12:48
aren't getting back to me, I'm going to have to sort of Chuck
12:51
them. But because it's not my field of
12:53
expertise, I was looking and some of this stuff's from like
12:55
the 50s and the 60s and, and I'm thinking, well, it could be that
12:59
this is the only example of this left.
13:00
It's not of interest. But no archives going to take
13:03
them. I mean, it's hard to get the BFI
13:05
or, or theatre archives to take, to take stuff that's of huge
13:08
cultural significance. But equally, there might be a
13:13
small subsection of people who are who are big curators of
13:18
amateur theatre or this particular amateur theatre or
13:21
that that I don't know about. In the same way that people
13:24
don't know that we exist and that our little Doctor Who
13:27
subcultures exist who might well be sitting on, you know, the the
13:31
Savages episode 4 or whatever. I'd go, well, I see doctor in
13:34
the shops watch this. They've got, you know, Doctor
13:37
Who's ever just just Chuck it in the way that because I can't
13:40
keep this stuff and I have put and I'm currently doing that
13:45
horrible thing, but I'm going to have to sort of Chuck it.
13:50
Just think. Of those people, Toby.
13:52
All right. Oh, he's died.
13:53
What about these old cans over here?
13:55
Oh, we don't want to sell the house.
13:56
Just bin them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:00
I see Doctor at HMV, you know, whatever.
14:03
Well, just to answer your question, what 4 episodes did
14:06
you say? Well absolutely The Massacre
14:09
episode 4, absolutely The Myth Makers episode 4, absolutely The
14:13
Daleks Master Plan episode 12 and absolutely Power of the
14:17
Daleks episode 6. I do like a good massacre.
14:20
You know, do you know what? That's a selection that I have
14:23
made in the past. That's really.
14:26
Big dramatic moments, aren't they?
14:28
They're big high points. Yeah, the only problem with the
14:34
Massacre and the Myth Makers are tricky picking a single episode,
14:36
because obviously you chose episode 4 of the Myth Makers,
14:39
which doesn't have Agamemnon and Menelaus and some of those
14:42
characters who are only in the first three of the episodes.
14:45
And it is slightly atypical of because because it suddenly
14:48
becomes this really serious thing about the quarter of an
14:52
hour in, when everyone starts to get killed horribly and what has
14:55
so far been a comedy. 2 would be tempting, all those wonderful
14:58
comedy sequences. 2 has the best jokes, 2.
15:01
Definitely has the best jokes. Step but 4 also has Katarina and
15:05
etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, and the massacre for is
15:08
probably what I would choose, but then you go.
15:10
So I've chosen episode without the Abbot, without Hartnell
15:13
giving speech. Though.
15:15
That speech and the woodcut, the woodcut massacre and all all of
15:18
that. And I want to see how Kembo is
15:20
destroyed. I want to see how that was
15:22
visualised. Yeah, but again, if you choose
15:25
episode 12, Episode 11's got all the delegates in it doing their
15:28
thing, so. You're doing it.
15:30
You're. Really hard.
15:31
It's really hard. Can't we just have of them all,
15:34
Jim? Couldn't it just be?
15:35
This one instead. Oh well, we're doing the same
15:38
thing we complained about in Episode 1.
15:40
Yeah, yeah, well, I'm afraid Doctor Who fans are always,
15:44
always glass half empty. We're never happy, No, except
15:49
when we watched The Web of Fear. When we watched The Web of Fear
15:53
look at that was a very, very good segue. 1000 episodes, you
15:57
know. Yeah.
15:59
Do you remember when you first saw this?
16:02
Web of Fear. Web of fear too.
16:04
You know when it when it came back.
16:05
Yeah, like I said, like 2 in the morning.
16:08
I was so tired. I mean, I watched the whole lot
16:12
on iTunes. Oh boy, oh boy.
16:14
And I was working the next day as well.
16:16
I I nearly died that day, but it was worth it, man.
16:19
God, just me alone. I felt it was just me up at the
16:23
crack of dawn, you know, I watching Doctor Who.
16:26
It was a wonderful feeling. It's amazing, isn't it?
16:30
So should we get to it? Yes, let's do well.
16:33
We're so lucky to be able to. Well, yeah, what wonderful words
16:37
to be able to say, and the young ones will not understand the joy
16:41
that it brings me to be able to say.
16:42
We are going to watch the Web of Fear episode 2 in 321.
16:52
Here we are. Off we go.
16:54
How exciting. Still don't meet Brigadier
16:56
though in this one, don't we? It's three.
16:57
We don't. Know yeah, even though it came
17:00
back Nicholas Courtney first episode is still oh if only
17:05
yeah, we don't have the brigadiers first moments.
17:07
He's just a boot in this and that's obviously it's not
17:10
Nicholas Courtney. It's an extra called Morris
17:12
Brooks, Who who who provides the foot of the boot of the
17:16
Brigadier, the Colonel that we see in this episode.
17:19
Probably in a boot that episode. Somewhere.
17:21
Probably in a boot, somewhere in Uganda or something, Yes.
17:25
And of course, Patrick Troughton isn't in this episode either.
17:29
I know. I do like how they do
17:30
characterize Ann Travers as it's sort of like a prototype
17:33
leisure, isn't it? You know, hugely competent, can
17:36
handle her own with all the men and yet they still squeeze her
17:39
in a very short skirt. Yeah, yeah.
17:42
Well, you know, you can be a a clever scientist and very
17:44
capable woman and also like being partially nude, but a.
17:49
Bit like being a Doctor Who podcast.
17:51
And devastatingly sexy as well. Absolutely.
17:54
See, there's it's just a cliche that those two things don't go
17:57
together. We haven't really talked about
18:01
the, the, the, the main guest star aside, aside from the
18:06
returning Jack Watling. Our, our lead guest star is Jack
18:10
Woolgar, who was rather a well known character actor who's
18:13
Sergeant Arnold, who always reminded me of it.
18:16
My, my grandparents generation was that generation that served
18:21
in the Second World War. And my granddad always had that
18:25
sort of Brill creamed hair and that, that, that moustache and,
18:29
and, and pictures of my granddad in his army uniform look very
18:33
like Sergeant Arnold in that publicity picture that is also
18:36
on the cover of the original target book.
18:38
So I've always felt that Staff Sergeant Arnold and my granddad,
18:41
and he's also got a slight breathing thing.
18:44
Sergeant Arnold and my, my granddad only had one lung
18:47
because he'd had TB or something like that.
18:50
So it very much reminds me of that generation of sort of older
18:54
men who'd served as non commissioned officers in the in
18:57
the in the Second World War. It's such a naturalistic turn,
19:01
isn't it? Like there's nothing at all
19:03
that's Florida or theatrical about how he plays that role.
19:07
What's that condition called? You know when you watch
19:09
something and you know it really well, but you forget the twist?
19:12
My mate Luke says every time he watches this he forgets that
19:15
Sergeant Arnold is the puppet of the Intelligence.
19:19
I I have moments like that. I always forget.
19:21
I'm always surprised when Captain Yates appears from under
19:24
the table in The Green Death. You know, when he's I always
19:27
forget that. And it happens with Colony in
19:29
space. I mentioned this yesterday.
19:30
I always forget that Norton turns up in episode 1.
19:34
I always think he's that subplot is introduced much, much later.
19:37
So there are moments that repeatedly, yes, confound my
19:41
expectations. Now you see, unfortunately, and
19:43
I'm sorry as well, I, I my first Doctor Who spoiler because
19:47
because I have two older brothers and I inherited their
19:50
target books. So the target books we had in
19:52
the house were actually theirs. So I these things were familiar
19:56
to me or I was ever able to read them.
19:57
So what I would do is I would sometimes organize them in color
20:00
order, sometimes order them in doctor order, and sometimes
20:03
order them in alphabetical order because I couldn't read them.
20:06
So I'd look at the pictures and then order them on the shelf.
20:08
That was that was how we made our fun in the old days was
20:11
putting things in a different order.
20:13
I still does it now. But well, I've and I've just
20:17
been doing it. I've just had new shelves put in
20:18
and I have to say I'm hugely shocked that I thought when I
20:23
was growing up and you know, and I and I saved up a bit of money,
20:27
I would spend it on yachts and parties and discos and, and shiz
20:31
bombs. And I have not felt so fulfilled
20:36
as having some shelves put up that I can actually get.
20:39
And Shaz has allowed me to have this space to.
20:41
And she said, look, you love your Doctor Who stuff.
20:43
Why don't you all have it put up?
20:44
And I've put it all out and I've been working out what order to
20:47
put stuff in. And do I put Doctor Who with my
20:49
TV stuff or does it get its own section or.
20:52
And it's just when it all fits and you go, oh, and I've only
20:54
got off shell space. Oh, and they all fit perfectly.
20:56
And it's I've had, and that's what I've been doing the past
20:59
couple of weeks. And oh, it's, it's a thrill.
21:02
Very. Oh, I love much more exciting
21:06
than cocaine on a yacht would ever be.
21:08
And. I've always had non Doctor Who
21:11
fan partners, right. So I've always had the man cave,
21:13
you know, out of the action, you know, away from the, the the
21:16
people that come and visit us. So they don't have to be don't
21:20
have to see that. And then when Mark moved in and,
21:23
well, downstairs we've got a floor to ceiling all the Doctor
21:26
Who books in the living room, floor to ceiling all the big
21:28
finishes in the dining room. I mean, it's everywhere.
21:32
And initially I was like, this is so weird because now my
21:34
friends come around and go, well, what's all this like?
21:37
But I love it now it's just everywhere.
21:39
It's great. Oh, well, no, well, I have
21:41
created a sort of a man cave, but it's an out and proud man
21:46
cave. We've gone to some effort with
21:47
it and I'm, oh, I couldn't, it's very, very exciting.
21:50
But why was I, why were we talking about?
21:51
Oh, because of the books. So we, there was just a small
21:55
shell, you know, it's just, there were lots of shelves of
21:57
books in our house. We lived in the countryside in
21:59
the middle of nowhere. We didn't have much, but we had
22:02
a lot of books. My mum would pick up books and
22:05
car boot sales and that. So we did have a house full of
22:07
books. And amongst those books were the
22:09
Doctor Who books. And that's what taught me to
22:11
read. And I mentioned last week that
22:13
the last episode that The Web of Fear was the first target book
22:16
that I read. But I remember saying to my
22:18
brother and what had happened was I, I'd, I'd read it in, I'd
22:22
read it in the car on the way to school.
22:23
And then I'd, I'd left it in that.
22:26
And then that person whose car that was gone anyway, I'd, I'd
22:30
left, I'd not had access to it for a while.
22:32
And the page where it had been left open had been sort of left
22:35
in the sun and had gone yellow and that, and it's still AI can
22:38
still see it in the copy of the book that I've got today where
22:40
that, that, that bit where it had been left open is sort of
22:43
dyed yellow. So it's, it's got scars on it,
22:45
that book. And part of me thinks I should
22:47
get, I should get AI should get a new version so it looks neater
22:50
in the shelf. But I actually like, I like this
22:53
version of mine that's been lived in, you know, one of the.
22:56
Kinds. But I remember saying to my
22:57
brother said, you know, so what's happening in the web of
23:00
fear? And he, he's, he's six years
23:02
older than me. So he was probably or, you know,
23:05
12 or something like that, maybe 30 because.
23:09
And I and I said to him, oh, and, you know, there's this
23:11
Harold Chorley guy and he's disappeared and they think he
23:14
might be the bad guy. And there's Blues and there's
23:15
and there's and there's Sergeant Arnold who's, you know, he's,
23:18
he's a really good guy and he's very brave and he's lost in the
23:20
tunnels and the blah, blah, blah, and somebody's a traitor.
23:23
And my brother said, OK, he said, well, you know, you said
23:27
Sergeant Arnold's a good guy. And I said yeah.
23:30
And he went, so he kind of ruined it for me.
23:36
But we'll of course get on to that because in the book it is
23:38
very different from how it is in the TV version.
23:42
It's another bit where Terence Dix I think improves and and I
23:47
actually treat the Target book as slightly more Canon in my
23:51
head than what happens in the TV version because I think it's
23:55
better. I thought it was Driver Evans.
23:59
I think you're supposed to think it's.
24:00
Driving you're supposed yes you are supposed to think it's Dr.
24:02
Revans even the doctor seems to think it's Dr. Revans at at at
24:06
some point. But what's interesting watching
24:09
this in hindsight is that also they they flag it up to make you
24:12
think it's Colonel Nesbridge Stewart and.
24:15
Certainly surely at some points as well, and certainly surely
24:18
it's aka for Christie. This isn't it, and it's played
24:20
by it really is, because Arnold's there throughout the
24:22
whole thing. Yeah, it it, it really is.
24:25
And, you know, these characters could all be rather uninterested
24:30
because they're all soldiers. And then, and none of them are
24:31
given sort of, you know, nowadays if you wrote it, you
24:35
know, Corporal Blake would have some sort of back story.
24:37
You know the Private Williams mum would be ill.
24:41
Psychological condition, Corporal.
24:43
Lane would be an alcoholic and and you know, one, one of them
24:47
would have probably been a victim of some sort of prejudice
24:51
and all all sorts of other. Things I've had a lifelong
24:53
phobia of underground stations. Or something like that.
24:56
But but they are all actually now that interesting watching it
25:01
back. The bit where he says to Arnold,
25:04
you know, how do you know? And he goes, oh, I don't know,
25:06
it's just a hunch. It's like he's the bad guy.
25:09
It's it's clear, it's obvious. They're watching it back now
25:13
that even as early as episode 2, they're sort of saying, why has
25:16
Arnold got this knowledge of a situation that he that he simply
25:20
shouldn't have? And it's actually a, you know,
25:24
it is a bit obvious. It's not a great piece of
25:25
writing, but but you know, they do forget about it in the whole.
25:29
They do the wonderful thing of having Professor Travers.
25:33
Obviously he gets the cliffhanger, doesn't he, where
25:35
he comes forward. So you're like, OK, it's him.
25:38
You know, we sort of go from person to person.
25:41
Yeah, yeah. Always there in the background,
25:45
the nice guy, you know, the down to earth soldier, the one who's
25:48
sort of looking out for everybody who's.
25:50
Who's very brave. He's the, yeah, he's the, he's
25:52
the Sergeant. Well, he knows the staff
25:54
Sergeant, isn't he? But he's the, you know, he's the
25:56
senior, you know, he's, he's older even than Captain Knight,
26:00
even though Captain Knight outranks him.
26:01
But he's the, you know, that's the sergeant's job, isn't it?
26:04
Is to be the, the, the wily old veteran in a in a way, actually.
26:09
And he fits the bill very well. Where his voice starts
26:12
whispering and rasping through the communication systems.
26:16
That's really scary and I because he's not putting well
26:19
because he's suddenly talking in RP, you can't tell at all that
26:23
is him. Yes, well, and and we had quite
26:28
a lot of fun with his with Jack Wilgar's son on on the
26:31
commentary, didn't we? Who'd who'd happened upon his
26:34
dad's tapes of where he tried the different voices he was
26:38
going to do for, for the intelligence and and that
26:42
obviously must have worked backwards from that and gone.
26:45
OK. Well, he, you know, he did, he
26:47
did speak RP as as all actors did in those days in, in
26:52
everyday life. And so then, you know, put on,
26:54
put on the accent for, for, for Staff Sergeant Arnold.
26:58
That's exactly the sort of thing where people might go well,
27:01
should we just bin these tapes? We don't need these.
27:04
Well, exactly. Oh, don't say that.
27:05
I'm going to have to get all this stuff out of the bin.
27:10
Is anybody? Interested.
27:10
Is there no room on your show? Just a little bit.
27:13
Woodford Amateur Dramatic Society, the Romilly Operatic
27:16
Society. I mean, I've even scanned all
27:20
the castes to see if there's any actors in it that became
27:22
professional, that went on to great good things and there's
27:24
there's not. It would be the most wonderful
27:27
coincidence if a regular listen to a hamster or a blunt PIM
27:30
knife was a part of the Romilly Amateur Dramatic Society and
27:33
got. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
27:38
Is this the bit where the the yetis start literally tear it?
27:41
Yeah, it is, yes. The music here where it's like.
27:45
Yeah, that that is on space adventure, which was.
27:49
Doctor Who monsters, they just keep coming.
27:52
Yeah, it was on. It was it was on, Yeah, Space
27:56
Adventure, which was a a cassette that that the Duass
28:01
issued of of stock music, which again, it was as close you got
28:04
to to having. It's almost like handheld.
28:09
Looks handheld camera, camera sort of looking up right in
28:12
front of it, moving backwards. And this is, you know, this is
28:15
on film and and the stuff with Captain Knight up the other end
28:19
is on videotape. But because the lighting is so
28:21
good it it's not a stark a change in quality, why do?
28:27
So many Doctor Who directors not get the idea that if you put a
28:31
camera underneath a monster, yeah, they're looming over us.
28:35
Now, Douglas Canfield knew this. He did it with the Dalek.
28:37
In the Dalek, you know, when he's in the forest, when the,
28:41
what's his name? Garvey.
28:42
He looks up at the Dalek, and it's staring down at him.
28:44
Gantry. Yeah, Brian.
28:46
Yeah, it's so effective and so simple.
28:51
So here we are back in the studio.
28:52
But it, it, it seems, and that that bit where they, you know,
28:56
one of them walks past the soldier and he thinks, oh, it
28:58
hasn't killed me. And then the one comes up behind
29:00
him with a gun that shoots Webb into his face.
29:04
It's horrible, but it's brilliant.
29:05
I mean the web. Guns are ridiculous, right?
29:08
That's just a stupid idea and yeah, it's terrifying.
29:11
The. Whole the whole story is stupid.
29:13
We will invade the earth by getting Yeti who who you know,
29:18
were disguised as Yeti because it meant that they could, you
29:22
know, hide out in the Himalayas where the Yeti come from.
29:26
But we'll, we'll put them in the London Underground and we'll
29:31
fill the London Underground with web that the Yeti shoot from
29:34
their guns. So what's what's the key then?
29:37
Just playing all this for real. Just playing it straight, Yeah,
29:40
I think don't. Don't ask anybody to question
29:42
it. You know, don't.
29:44
And behave as if this is the most terrifying threat.
29:47
Yeah. Which it is.
29:49
Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah.
29:50
And have everyone play it, you know, absolutely deadly
29:54
seriously, which they do. There's an extraordinary moment
29:57
in Four. It's just after Night dies and
30:00
the doctor absolutely thinks he's about to die.
30:03
He's screaming. No, no.
30:05
Yeah, but he's trying to attack the Yetis.
30:07
Oh God, it's so tense. It really is.
30:10
It's. Trout and understands it,
30:12
doesn't he? Interestingly, you know when I
30:14
was watching the mind robber with that fellow the other day,
30:16
the non Doctor Who fan, he went he goes it's unbelievable.
30:21
This is the first time I've seen this doctor and there's just
30:23
something sort of flighty about him and he's scared all the
30:26
time. I said yeah, that's why he's
30:29
great. That's the whole thing about
30:31
him, Yeah. So.
30:32
Great. Because you're terrified.
30:34
Because he's scared. And, and because he's, he's
30:37
vulnerable. And and that's the the he he,
30:40
he, he, he, you, he could, he's yeah, he's vulnerable.
30:45
Unlike the sort of super doctors, The Olympian doctors,
30:48
you Troughton gives you the impression that he could get
30:51
killed at any minute or he could screw it up at any minute, which
30:54
is which is a brave thing for your hero to do.
30:59
Oh, my God. I've worked out Jack Watling is
31:01
actually in. This is younger than I am now.
31:04
Oh really? Wow.
31:07
Yeah. You're looking better, Toby.
31:09
Don't worry. So 4353, yeah, He's what, 40?
31:17
He's 4445 in this. Yeah.
31:19
He's six years younger than I am.
31:22
There's such a strange thing, right, That, you know, obviously
31:24
Anne Travers and Professor Travers are father and daughter,
31:27
but Jack Watling and Deborah Watling are father and daughter.
31:33
And then the lines are blurred by the time we get to downtime
31:36
and Victoria is treating Professor Travers like her
31:42
father. It's a very odd affair that that
31:45
movie. It's yes, it is.
31:47
It's a straight, it's a strange old thing, but that was one of
31:51
the many things that we had, you know, in the wilderness years to
31:54
fill in the gaps. You know, it was like, well,
31:55
we've got a, we've got a. It's as close as we can get to
31:59
the web of fear is, is getting some of the actors back
32:01
together. I can.
32:02
Still remember the excitement of watching that for the first
32:04
time. Absolutely.
32:05
Yeah, Yeah. This was Slayden, Deborah
32:07
Watling. Nicholas Courtney,
32:09
Extraordinary. Yeah.
32:12
And Jamie, you. Know Jamie fits in remarkably
32:14
well with these soldiers, doesn't he?
32:16
Even though he can be a bit of a cow as.
32:18
But this and this costume he's got is great as well.
32:20
You know, he looks really, he looks really capable.
32:24
This is quite a funny old scene. I, I, I, I know that when I, I
32:31
think some of the, the, The Who production team of the time got
32:35
to see this before it, before it was back, you know, when, when,
32:39
when it was being, you know, prepared and, you know, the news
32:44
was going to come out and stuff. And I and I think, you know, a
32:46
few eyebrows were raised at the fact that in episode 2, there's
32:49
this whacking great scene between two soldiers that's
32:52
clearly been written to kind of lengthen the episode a little
32:57
bit as they discuss things that we already know and don't move
33:00
the plot on at all. But that's the fun of this.
33:04
I like the fact that you can kick back with these two guys
33:07
and they're two nice actors. Stephen Whittaker became
33:10
actually a very highly appreciated television director
33:14
and Rick Morgan here Richardson Morgan is Rogan in the arc in
33:19
Space I. Knew I knew his face, and I knew
33:21
you'd be able to tell me. Well, and I it, it, it was one
33:24
of those light bulb moments because my mum used to go to
33:26
theatre and she'd bring programs back for me.
33:29
And, and there was this actor that seemed to turn up in a load
33:31
of the plays that she watched. And he was called Rick Morgan,
33:34
Ric, Rick Morgan. And he'd listed Doctor Who in
33:37
his things. And I was like, but I, I know
33:39
the names of all the doc, every actor that's been in Doctor and
33:42
there's not a Rick. Rick Morgan is not right.
33:43
And he was obviously he was much older and he'd got big hair.
33:47
And I suddenly had a light bulb moment at one moment when I was
33:50
thinking about either web inferior or orchid space, like,
33:53
oh, Rick is short for Richardson because he's credited as
33:55
Richardson Morgan. And it was that guy.
33:58
And then I saw him in a play. I saw him in All My Sons at the
34:02
Chester Gateway Theatre playing the lead part of Joe Keller.
34:05
And I've seen that play many times because it's a, it's a
34:08
theatre studies set text. I saw Del Henny play it, play it
34:11
in, in Birmingham. I've seen, I've seen it a few
34:13
times and Rick Morgan is the best Joe Keller I've seen.
34:17
It was a it was full of really subtle governments and he had a
34:20
really fantastic theatre career, Rick Morgan.
34:24
But he never played ball with us, not because he didn't want
34:27
to. I wrote to him a couple of times
34:29
and he simply signed photos back, but never filled in any
34:32
questionnaires I sent him or, or, or answered the letter.
34:35
He signed the photo, but he didn't engage.
34:37
We, we tried to get him on the DVDs and Paul eventually spoke
34:40
to him when we were working on, on, on the commentary of this,
34:43
which is relatively recent and, and spoke to him and he was very
34:48
nice, but just said it was a long time ago my acting career.
34:53
I don't really think about it. I don't really do anything.
34:55
His wife said, well, you volunteer in the local food bank
34:57
deer. And he said, well, yes, I
34:58
suppose I do that. But he was also, he was, he was
35:00
a bit deaf. And it wasn't that he was anti
35:03
it. He was just one of those people
35:05
that didn't engage with and in fact, somebody else I, I know
35:10
was, was writing a piece and researching.
35:13
He did, he wrote one television play it as part of a series of
35:17
horror anthology and, and wrote a lovely blog on it online and,
35:21
and tried to sort of get, get some feedback from him on that.
35:25
And apparently he read the blog and he was happy to read it.
35:28
This went through an intermediary mutual friend, but
35:33
didn't engage, engage back again, not in a not in an
35:36
antagonistic way. He just maybe he was shy.
35:39
Maybe he just wanted to put it all behind him.
35:41
Maybe he was just not particularly outgoing or
35:44
whatever. But for whatever reason, he it
35:46
wasn't like he was Greta Garbo and we couldn't get him.
35:49
He was always sort of there. And as I say, it was nice enough
35:52
to sign photos and things, but for whatever reason, he didn't
35:55
want to do the he didn't want to do the bit where he talked about
35:59
his work or whatever. And we have to respect that.
36:02
But it's also obviously as somebody that wants, you know,
36:06
all the testimony one can get about everything.
36:09
That's my bag. I always feel he's one of those
36:12
that got away, but it wasn't through want of trying.
36:14
Sometimes it happens with people where we go, oh damn, we missed
36:18
them. Well, we didn't miss Rick
36:21
Morgan. We just, we just didn't, didn't
36:24
hit him. I quite like scenes.
36:28
I know they are saying things that we already know, but scenes
36:31
where you just hang with characters like that.
36:33
Because then when you start losing those people, well,
36:36
you've had a bit of time to get to know them and relax with
36:39
them. And it's the sort of thing
36:40
there's no time to do in Doctor Who now.
36:43
Yes, well, yes, it's it's funny because I think of something
36:46
like kill the moon when Tony a sober gets killed.
36:49
I mean, I'm obviously upset because it's Tony a sober and I
36:51
wanted him to have a bigger part.
36:54
But it's only after that character's died that that
36:57
Hermione Norris goes, Oh, and he taught me so much and he was
36:59
like, teach the and it's like, well, it would have been really
37:02
nice to have known that before he got killed because then we
37:04
might have felt something. And no, I look, I'm, I'm much,
37:09
I, I love 60s telly and I love stuff where people just talk.
37:13
I think you can make you, you can have scenes where it's just
37:17
where the only thing you get out of the scene is character.
37:20
But well written character and well played character is
37:24
interesting and it's. The sort of thing that Russell
37:27
got back in 2005 with a character like, oh God, the Blue
37:31
Lady in the end of the World, You know?
37:33
And she has that beautiful scene with Billie Piper, and then
37:35
she's killed immediately afterwards.
37:37
Yeah, but she's only in it. She's only in it because the
37:39
episode was under running. She's well, for exactly the same
37:42
reason as I think that chap that we were just talking about was
37:47
in it. Now, Corporal Evans, Driver
37:50
Evans was a slight worry for me. I'd I'd enjoyed the character in
37:55
the book but when the telesnaps came back because he's got that
37:59
slightly jutting chin it it did look like he was gurning quite a
38:05
lot. Oh, I.
38:06
See, and I was slightly worried that the performance would be
38:09
bit arch a bit and he's not he's great.
38:13
Well, he's in our sly boots, isn't he?
38:15
He's a brilliant character and I'm sure I'm sure I read in an
38:18
interview in the early days of Doctor Who magazine from Mervyn
38:20
Hazeman saying that they'd wanted to bring Evans back into
38:24
the the Unit fold, but that it was deemed that, you know, for
38:29
later for later stories. Had had they been involved, you
38:34
know, with the development of of unit as I think had originally
38:36
been the the plan before they fell out with show, but that but
38:41
that it it was deemed that the character was too offensive to
38:44
the Welsh. So, Derek.
38:46
Imagine him just popping up. Well, he comes, he comes back in
38:50
the Silurians as a different character and he's got about 3
38:54
lines and gets killed. He's private, right?
38:56
Who blows some bubble gum and goes, I'm in the tunnels and
38:59
then gets killed. So having had a really good part
39:02
in five episodes of The Web of Fear, he comes back for one
39:06
episode of Doctor and the Silurians and gets killed.
39:08
And then he comes back in Sharda, where the story doesn't
39:11
even get made. Poor old Derek Pollitz.
39:13
So he's actually in Doctor Who three times, but his first go is
39:17
his best. Why they worry about offending
39:19
the Welsh? Have you seen the Green Death?
39:23
Well, here's a trivia question for you, Joe.
39:26
There are there's the Brigadier's Foot, not played by
39:28
Nicholas Courtney. There there were three Pollit
39:31
brother actors, and another one of them was in Doctor Who.
39:38
So Driver Evans has a brother Who who appears in the Trout and
39:41
era. Do you know who who?
39:43
His brother. What with the surname Polly?
39:46
Yeah. I don't have a clue.
39:49
Tell me. The the the Time Lord who isn't
39:52
Bernard Horseful and isn't Trevor Martin in the war games,
39:56
who then comes back in the three doctors.
39:58
But you can't you can't. That is Clyde Pollitt, who is
40:04
who is the brother of Derek Pollitt and the other brother I
40:06
think was called Brian, who was the longest lived.
40:08
I think Brian only died a couple years ago.
40:09
He he never was in a in a Doctor Who, but Derek Pollitt lost his.
40:13
I I say he was very short sighted and he lost his
40:16
eyesight. So his his acting career was
40:18
curtailed by that. But and Clyde Polly had a great
40:21
career with the the English stage company under Michael
40:24
Bogdanov. But yes, so he he the two
40:27
brothers appear in the Trouton era.
40:29
I love this cliffhanger. As long as you're educating me
40:31
with information like that, you have not wasted your life, OK?
40:36
Oh, the phone machines go in. Is it a model shot?
40:39
Yeah, it's great though, isn't it?
40:41
I love that. I think this it's, it's funny
40:44
because we get the foam I think is a bit ubiquitous in the Trout
40:48
and era and that makes me worry for Fury slightly.
40:51
But actually I think the scenes, particularly the models like
40:55
that and the end of episode 5, I think I'm not bored of foam.
40:59
I think foam's amazing. I think foam is really scary and
41:02
fantastic. Excuse me the the the end of
41:06
episode 5 of Seeds of Death. I mean, that's the best use of
41:09
foam ever. Well.
41:10
You see, but This is why you see, because seeds of death was
41:13
the only trout and story on video for me for years and years
41:16
and years. So I've watched it over and over
41:18
and over and over again. So I am a bit blase about the
41:21
seeds of death because it was one I was I'm so familiar with,
41:24
you know, so so I think I was slightly worried that Oh God, if
41:27
well, if there's that much foam in all of the other ones.
41:30
But it's not enough. It's not enough that it's just
41:33
foam. He's got dry ice pumping through
41:35
that tunnel as. Well, he just, he just shoots it
41:37
really, really well. It's a brilliant cliffhanger
41:41
that and I remember it from, from being a chapter in the
41:44
book, you know, No, I think I think that's a great cliffhanger
41:48
and a great episode. Although it does, you know, if
41:52
they were, if they were to recolour it and and present it
41:57
for a modern audience, there would be lots of scenes in that
42:00
that would be totally absent. To the story's detriment, I
42:05
think. Possibly.
42:07
Well, yeah, like a relaxed place.
42:09
And you like little weems, you need little weems to have his
42:11
moments because obviously he, he, he's the first of them to,
42:15
to get nobbled. And you know that that then you
42:19
start to realise that, that you know the fortress is not
42:21
impenetrable. I I have sort of, you know,
42:25
after the delight of being able to watch this episode.
42:29
Unfortunately, I'm here to tell you now that we cannot watch
42:32
episode 3 of The Web Affair. However, thanks to some
42:37
enterprising professionals, we can watch a top notch animation
42:43
for episode 3. Are you up for this challenge?
42:45
I am up for this challenge. Let's do it.
42:49
I will cut it there.