Latest / Mythic Mind Games / 50 - Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children, Trauma, and Untapped Depth

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50 - Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children, Trauma, and Untapped Depth · Mythic Mind Games

0:08
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind Movies and Shows, an
0:11
Speaker 1: extension of the Mythic Mind Fellowship where we pursue wisdom
0:14
Speaker 1: on the paths between primary secondary worlds. I'm doctor Andrew Snyder,
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Speaker 1: and I'm glad that you're here, so welcome back to
0:28
Speaker 1: Mythic Mind Movies and Mythic Mind Games. This is going
0:32
Speaker 1: to be a cross listed episode. Originally, I'm just going
0:35
Speaker 1: to keep this on the Games podcast because it's obviously
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Speaker 1: related to the Final Fantasy seven things we've been doing
0:40
Speaker 1: over there, and that's probably mostly what the audience for
0:42
Speaker 1: this is. However, we aren't able to have our recent
0:46
Speaker 1: recording for the Movies podcast. This is a movie, so
0:49
Speaker 1: we're just going to use it for both purposes. That
0:51
Speaker 1: being said, if you're listening or watching this and you
0:54
Speaker 1: are not familiar with Final Fantasy seven, then odds are
0:57
Speaker 1: that if you watch this movie, you probably won't know
0:59
Speaker 1: what's happening. Even if you are familiar with the game,
1:02
Speaker 1: you probably won't know what's happening. My recommendation to you
1:04
Speaker 1: would be, well, ideally, go play the game, because it's
1:07
Speaker 1: fantastic and you absolutely should. But if you don't want
1:10
Speaker 1: to do that, then maybe at least hop over to
1:11
Speaker 1: the Games podcast and listen to the conversation we had
1:14
Speaker 1: on Final VAC seven. That always provide you with some
1:17
Speaker 1: basic background and themes for the world that we're dealing
1:20
Speaker 1: with here, because this movie takes place a couple of
1:24
Speaker 1: years after the end of that game, and you know
1:27
Speaker 1: this it came out and what was like twenty years
1:29
Speaker 1: What did this movie come out? Do you remember? Offhand?
1:32
Speaker 2: I downed off the top of my head, though I
1:33
Speaker 2: do have the Wikipedia page up so I can check it.
1:35
Speaker 2: It looks like it was two thousand and six in
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Speaker 2: North America, Okay, several months after Japan she pick out
1:42
Speaker 2: in two thousand and five.
1:44
Speaker 1: Okay, so roughly twenty years for us, and so it's
1:47
Speaker 1: been a little while. But this was despite being a
1:50
Speaker 1: fan of the game from its release in what was
1:53
Speaker 1: it ninety eight something like that. Yeah, I actually hadn't
1:57
Speaker 1: seen this movie until just today, and so I had
2:00
Speaker 1: to fill that in. I have some thoughts about it.
2:03
Speaker 1: We were just talking a little bit before we started
2:04
Speaker 1: recording that it's a little bit difficult to track exactly
2:07
Speaker 1: what's going on, and part of that is I've been
2:10
Speaker 1: told because it involves not only material from the games,
2:13
Speaker 1: but also some of the tie ins, like from some
2:15
Speaker 1: of the spinoff games like Crisis Core stuff, and some
2:19
Speaker 1: of some of the books that were released that kind
2:22
Speaker 1: of go along with this world that the bridge some
2:24
Speaker 1: of the gaps. But that being said, first impressions, I
2:27
Speaker 1: think that the animation, the three D animation was definitely
2:31
Speaker 1: impressive for the time in which it was made. I mean,
2:33
Speaker 1: it's obviously not being made in twenty twenty six, but nonetheless,
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Speaker 1: I mean it's still visually very appealing. We definitely have
2:40
Speaker 1: some of the same themes from the game, playing out
2:43
Speaker 1: of dealing with sorrow, dealing with the aftermath of tragedy.
2:48
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting overall. I'm not totally convinced that
2:51
Speaker 1: this is a story that really needed to be told,
2:53
Speaker 1: but I would say it's more fan service than it is,
2:58
Speaker 1: like high cinema is how I would handle it, And
3:01
Speaker 1: on that level, I appreciate it because as a fan
3:03
Speaker 1: of the game, I like fan service, even if I
3:05
Speaker 1: don't necessarily classic it's high art. But this are my
3:08
Speaker 1: opening thoughts. Michael, what do you think about this movie?
3:12
Speaker 1: So it's funny to me that you talked about you
3:15
Speaker 1: would be confused if you haven't played f seven. I
3:18
Speaker 1: actually originally saw this long before I played Pantay seven,
3:22
Speaker 1: so I'm in that category, or I was originally. I
3:25
Speaker 1: think I saw it in college, and that was not
3:29
Speaker 1: the wisest choice because I had no idea what was.
3:32
Speaker 3: Going on at all.
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Speaker 2: So I mean, I know Cloud and suffer Off, where
3:37
Speaker 2: it's difficult to be in video games at all and
3:39
Speaker 2: not know those characters. So I kind of understood the
3:43
Speaker 2: basic gist of what was going on, but like, I
3:45
Speaker 2: didn't know who Rufus was, I didn't know a lot
3:49
Speaker 2: of the peripheral characters, and I didn't understand it took
3:52
Speaker 2: place after the game, so I had that much sense
3:55
Speaker 2: of the chronology. But yeah, it was kind of a
3:57
Speaker 2: confusing mess. Originally. I did watch it as second time
4:01
Speaker 2: a few years ago, basically, I think right after I
4:05
Speaker 2: finished fun Fantasy seven finally, because I was like, okay,
4:08
Speaker 2: now I have context. Now I need to go back
4:10
Speaker 2: and watch it and see if I actually got better,
4:11
Speaker 2: because I didn't particularly like it the first time, and
4:14
Speaker 2: I watched it again and honestly, I still didn't care
4:17
Speaker 2: for it that much. And it was interesting because I
4:20
Speaker 2: think I saw the second time while I was in
4:23
Speaker 2: the process of playing through Fombasi seven remake, and both
4:26
Speaker 2: of those media, if you will. Both the movie and
4:31
Speaker 2: remake are both revisiting, like these really beloved characters from
4:36
Speaker 2: back in like you said, the late nineties, and they
4:41
Speaker 2: both have a lot of love for those characters, but
4:43
Speaker 2: they approach kind of modernizing their presentation in a different way,
4:49
Speaker 2: and I feel like remake does a significantly better job
4:52
Speaker 2: of revisiting those characters. The graphic designs for them, I
4:56
Speaker 2: think is just incredible in remake. It's like it gets
5:00
Speaker 2: on what I feel like those characters should look like.
5:02
Speaker 2: The voice actors they hire these for the English version
5:04
Speaker 2: are absolutely fantastic across the board. But Advent Children, which
5:09
Speaker 2: came along to be sure much earlier, I feel like,
5:13
Speaker 2: does not do nearly as good a job. The voice
5:17
Speaker 2: acting in particular bothered me, and I think I'm probably
5:21
Speaker 2: more sensitive to voice acting than a lot of people are,
5:24
Speaker 2: because I did just enough theater in high school to
5:27
Speaker 2: be very opinionated about vocal intonation and that sort of thing,
5:31
Speaker 2: and I feel like the voice direction, although they may
5:34
Speaker 2: have had perfectly good actors, I don't think the voices
5:36
Speaker 2: were directed well in Advent Children, and that greats on
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Speaker 2: me after a bit of hearing them talk. Like an
5:43
Speaker 2: example would be like when like when Cloud sees Rufus
5:47
Speaker 2: again and Rufus is said trying to describe like how
5:51
Speaker 2: he survived, and Cloud's having none of it. He's like,
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Speaker 2: I'm leaving. They're kind of just talking over each other,
5:55
Speaker 2: which I know is kind of what's supposed to be
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Speaker 2: going on and seen, but when you hear it, it just
5:59
Speaker 2: sounds awkward because it doesn't feel like the actors have
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Speaker 2: an awareness of each other talking and that they were
6:03
Speaker 2: interrupting each other, so it's just overlapping audio and it just
6:06
Speaker 2: sounds completely off. So things like that take me out,
6:09
Speaker 2: and I rose, that's not story as far as story goes. Yeah,
6:13
Speaker 2: it is setting aside the confusion of it. It is
6:17
Speaker 2: revisiting this notion of like we're clearly still attached to
6:21
Speaker 2: Sepharrov as the villain, so the whole thing's about we're
6:23
Speaker 2: gonna revive sephar Off, which is in my opinion, not
6:27
Speaker 2: the greatest kind of follow up sequel concept for a story.
6:31
Speaker 2: And there's like these three main villains which are like
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Speaker 2: basically adolescent teenage punkstered sepharrofs, and I feel like they
6:41
Speaker 2: are not particularly compelling villains either. So given that I'm
6:46
Speaker 2: not a huge fan of how the characters are portrayed, like,
6:48
Speaker 2: it's just hard for me to like attach to anything here.
6:50
Speaker 2: It has cool action scenes. Those are fun, but the story,
6:54
Speaker 2: I don't know. It feels a little vapid to me,
6:57
Speaker 2: to be honest. But Andrew, you may have gotten more
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Speaker 2: out of it than I did, so well.
7:03
Speaker 1: First of all, you mentioned that the voice acting, so
7:05
Speaker 1: did you watch subtitles or the dub?
7:08
Speaker 2: I did the dub. I've never actually seen the rigid Japanese.
7:11
Speaker 2: I would probably like it better, honestly if I watched
7:13
Speaker 2: it that way.
7:14
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I watched it with subtitles, so yeah, that's
7:17
Speaker 1: a different, different experience, which you know, when I'm listening
7:20
Speaker 1: to Japanese and looking at subtitles. I don't feel i'd
7:23
Speaker 1: all qualified to judge the voice acting because I don't
7:25
Speaker 1: really know what's supposed to sound like. But so I
7:28
Speaker 1: feel like it was, you know, fine for that, But
7:31
Speaker 1: maybe at some point I'll watch the English dub just
7:33
Speaker 1: to see what it's like. But yeah, as far as
7:35
Speaker 1: the story, goes h. Yeah, I largely agree with that.
7:39
Speaker 1: We talked about. What makes Final Thing seven so great
7:42
Speaker 1: is not so much the metastor, even though I think
7:45
Speaker 1: the stuff there, But what makes it so great is
7:46
Speaker 1: really the characters and the interactions that they have in
7:50
Speaker 1: this movie. The only really meaningful character is Cloud of
7:56
Speaker 1: pretty much Tifa, kind of Marlene a little bit more.
8:00
Speaker 1: But the rest of the cast is just kind of there.
8:03
Speaker 1: It was cool when they show up for the big
8:05
Speaker 1: fight scene, but that's about the role that they play.
8:11
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's cool on a static level,
8:13
Speaker 1: like when you first see Vincent show up and you
8:16
Speaker 1: know he looks cool and brooding as he does. But
8:19
Speaker 1: besides just that fan service, the characters really don't do
8:24
Speaker 1: a whole lot. Really. The story, I would say, is
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Speaker 1: principally about Cloud dealing with the trauma that he's experienced,
8:34
Speaker 1: as well as more broadly sort of the universe or
8:37
Speaker 1: of the global trauma people are dealing with in the
8:40
Speaker 1: wake of what happened in the end of Final Fantasy
8:42
Speaker 1: seven with you know, the planet was nearly destroyed by
8:46
Speaker 1: this meteor that Sephyroth called down the planet itself fought
8:49
Speaker 1: back through the prayers and mediation of Earth. Who if
8:56
Speaker 1: people watching this who aren't familiar flying Fantasty seven, I'm
8:58
Speaker 1: not going to explain all this, so you just, I
9:01
Speaker 1: don't know, you go play the game. But you know,
9:04
Speaker 1: so Era through her mediation, through the life force, the
9:07
Speaker 1: life stream sort of fighting back. You know, it expended
9:10
Speaker 1: all this energy and you know, at this point Cloud
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Speaker 1: had already killed suffer Off and throw him back into
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Speaker 1: the life stream, but of course he never really dies
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Speaker 1: because he's got this unconquerable will. He's got this Genova
9:21
Speaker 1: stuff inside of him, which which then sort of spread
9:26
Speaker 1: throughout the life stream and then you know, through its
9:29
Speaker 1: actions at the end of the game, all these people
9:32
Speaker 1: get like tainted with this disease, especially children. And that's
9:36
Speaker 1: sort of where we pick up with the movie, and
9:40
Speaker 1: Cloud is dealing with his shortcomings from the game, especially
9:44
Speaker 1: with the death of Earth, that the death of Zach,
9:47
Speaker 1: going back even before finds Fantasy seven, and so he's
9:49
Speaker 1: dealing with all this trauma and he's tried to sort
9:51
Speaker 1: of ignore all that, let it all go behind him
9:54
Speaker 1: and go off to start a delivery service, which is
9:57
Speaker 1: kind of weird, but I guess the point is, you know,
10:00
Speaker 1: to put all that away do something really mundane, and
10:03
Speaker 1: so he's sort of running away from from that, which
10:06
Speaker 1: leaves him with a lot of unresolved psychological issues. And
10:09
Speaker 1: this is what I think the movie at least starts
10:12
Speaker 1: to do well, or maybe could have done well if
10:13
Speaker 1: it handled it a little bit better. But like, for example,
10:16
Speaker 1: pretty early on in the movie, Cloud is called by Rufus,
10:21
Speaker 1: who apparently still alive the president of Shinram, along with
10:25
Speaker 1: it his Turks, and they basically say, okay, you need
10:27
Speaker 1: to deal with this emerging suffer off threat again. And
10:34
Speaker 1: Rufus says something about Cloud being an ex soldier, and
10:37
Speaker 1: you know, Cloud says, you know, only in my mind,
10:39
Speaker 1: And so he's still started dealing with that psychological break
10:42
Speaker 1: that he had earlier. I feel like that's where they
10:43
Speaker 1: really could have done some interesting things, But I wish
10:47
Speaker 1: that got more of a focus, I guess, more of
10:49
Speaker 1: an kind of existential dive, because that's is I think
10:52
Speaker 1: the most interesting sort to tell. But I mean there's
10:56
Speaker 1: something there in that, like Cloud eventually find his purpose
11:00
Speaker 1: in asserting himself against evil, which is not necessarily a
11:03
Speaker 1: bad way to find purpose if we don't know where
11:05
Speaker 1: to look, and so I think there's there's something of
11:07
Speaker 1: philosophical of ex central value there. And then as Cloud
11:11
Speaker 1: really finds his own identity by standing against evil, against
11:16
Speaker 1: the threat of Steph Froth again, you know, the world
11:19
Speaker 1: itself kind of comes behind him, especially Earth from the
11:23
Speaker 1: life stream, which is where we sort of get this
11:25
Speaker 1: this diasex machina at the end, where there's this like
11:30
Speaker 1: healing rain, you know, Earth does her final limit break essentially,
11:34
Speaker 1: and there's this healing rain that comes down. All the
11:37
Speaker 1: disease stuff goes away, and then you literally have Cloud
11:40
Speaker 1: in the church baptizing children to get rid of the
11:43
Speaker 1: sin that's on them. Like it's a very clear baptism
11:46
Speaker 1: scene there, although I should mention the Cloud is Presbyterian
11:49
Speaker 1: because he is sprinkling. But nonetheless, there's a lot of
11:53
Speaker 1: stuff happening here that I think could have been handled
11:56
Speaker 1: really well. It's I don't know, interesting as provided, but
12:00
Speaker 1: I feel like if they had really made the characters
12:04
Speaker 1: more at the forefront, I think this could have been
12:07
Speaker 1: a really good movie. But unfortunately, as you said, does
12:10
Speaker 1: come across pretty vapid. Most of the characters are just
12:12
Speaker 1: sort of there.
12:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like and again I would need to.
12:18
Speaker 2: It's been a while since I watched this properly, so
12:20
Speaker 2: I would need to fully watch through again to do
12:22
Speaker 2: a better analysis. But I feel like if weirdly, if
12:27
Speaker 2: there was less time committed to action scenes and more
12:31
Speaker 2: time committed to character develpment, I think it would have
12:32
Speaker 2: actually helped them to be quite a bit because they're
12:35
Speaker 2: very in love with if I'm facing in general squares
12:37
Speaker 2: in love with like having.
12:38
Speaker 3: Cool scenes, and I'm a fan of them.
12:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just need them to have good emotional context
12:45
Speaker 2: for them to work properly, and I feel like this
12:47
Speaker 2: movie doesn't do enough to set that up. And yeah,
12:51
Speaker 2: like you said, I think the lack of use of
12:56
Speaker 2: some of the characters does hurt it quite a bit.
12:59
Speaker 2: Clud is very brooding character, especially in this movie, and
13:04
Speaker 2: at least the type of brooding they went with is
13:06
Speaker 2: not really fun to watch for the most part. You
13:10
Speaker 2: really need more of the character dynamics, I feel, which
13:13
Speaker 2: the game does really well to offset that and to
13:17
Speaker 2: give balance and again context to it. And they try
13:20
Speaker 2: to do that so with Tifa and like characters like Marlin.
13:24
Speaker 2: But I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter that Barrett
13:27
Speaker 2: barely it gets any screen time.
13:29
Speaker 3: And I love Barrett, and I.
13:31
Speaker 2: Don't like his look in this movie. Like Remmy, he
13:33
Speaker 2: has like dreads in this movie, doesn't.
13:34
Speaker 1: He Yeah, like short druds.
13:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't look right on him. I don't know.
13:38
Speaker 2: That just made just me my opinion. But yeah, and
13:43
Speaker 2: I don't know. I find the villain's extremely just annoying,
13:47
Speaker 2: So that doesn't help.
13:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a shame that it feels like they
13:51
Speaker 1: really just reset Cloud's character, like put it back in
13:53
Speaker 1: the beginning, where by the end of seven he should
13:56
Speaker 1: have been a different character, even if he still has
13:58
Speaker 1: some things to deal with. I think is basically the
14:01
Speaker 1: same dispositionally, you know, kind of stoic, very internalizing the
14:05
Speaker 1: world around him. He should have had some change after
14:08
Speaker 1: the experience he's been through. I mean, even in you know,
14:11
Speaker 1: I'm playing through Pantacy seven rebirth now and you already
14:16
Speaker 1: up to that point, you see development in Cloud's characters.
14:18
Speaker 1: He warmed up to his companions. He seems like he
14:21
Speaker 1: really cares about them, he cares about his mission, you know,
14:24
Speaker 1: all this stuff. And I feel like that even if
14:28
Speaker 1: he does go through some some tragedy, from that point forward,
14:31
Speaker 1: he should be a different character than he was at
14:33
Speaker 1: the beginning, whereas in in Avant Children he feels like
14:36
Speaker 1: he was the very beginning of his arc, which is
14:39
Speaker 1: very unfortunate, and that they assume that you know so much,
14:43
Speaker 1: but that they kind of just go back to the beginning. Yeah.
14:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I feel like the general dependency on Foma
14:50
Speaker 2: Placy seven the game. I want to be careful here
14:53
Speaker 2: because I think media can exist in sequel territory where
14:56
Speaker 2: it expects you to know things. I don't want to
14:58
Speaker 2: like condemn that side, but I.
15:00
Speaker 1: Do think.
15:02
Speaker 2: I think my issue with this spending on f seven
15:05
Speaker 2: is less like that you need the knowledge and more
15:08
Speaker 2: that it kind of has a pretentious feel to it,
15:12
Speaker 2: almost like the careers were thinking, oh, found Fantasy seven
15:15
Speaker 2: is amazing, and that already gives us enough of a foundation,
15:18
Speaker 2: Like we should just expect you to already love this
15:20
Speaker 2: and just be on board with whatever we do. It
15:22
Speaker 2: feels like it's not really trying to sell me on
15:24
Speaker 2: the story at all. It's just expecting me to be
15:26
Speaker 2: on board and to think they have something profound to say,
15:29
Speaker 2: and then they don't actually bring something profound to say
15:31
Speaker 2: to the table. I don't know, it's kind of a
15:34
Speaker 2: that's more of an intuitive thing that I'm like, I
15:36
Speaker 2: sense from it, but I don't know. I don't like
15:39
Speaker 2: it when I feel like the author is pretentious, and
15:42
Speaker 2: I feel that here.
15:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that's fair. Obviously they wanted to
15:47
Speaker 1: tell an important story, but they didn't tell an important story.
15:53
Speaker 1: I mean, even as you said, the villains are are
15:56
Speaker 1: kind of annoying. And I didn't even really fully understand
16:00
Speaker 1: this from watching the movie, but just from looking up
16:02
Speaker 1: stuff afterwards. So so apparently these villains are literally just
16:07
Speaker 1: like projections of Sepharroth, or like fragments of Sepharroth that
16:10
Speaker 1: he just willed into the world, I guess. And so
16:13
Speaker 1: you know, they've only been around for like a couple
16:14
Speaker 1: of weeks or so by the time they show up
16:15
Speaker 1: in the movie, and so you know, these aren't just
16:18
Speaker 1: like the Sepharoth clones like Cloud is to some extent,
16:22
Speaker 1: but these are literally just like manifestations of Sepharroth that
16:26
Speaker 1: are looking for Genova, and then that allows Sepfharroth to
16:30
Speaker 1: re emerge fully in the world. And I don't know,
16:34
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's not a very compelling villain when
16:37
Speaker 1: he literally just can't die and can just will himself
16:40
Speaker 1: back into existence. I don't know, it's just it feels
16:44
Speaker 1: like they're just don't have new material to deal with.
16:49
Speaker 3: So remind me where the villa?
16:50
Speaker 2: Where the I guess I don't know the characters names
16:53
Speaker 2: like Kardage Kardage is one of them, But were they
16:57
Speaker 2: meant to be like different components of Sepharos personality.
17:01
Speaker 1: Yes, and so there's like some kind of rage or
17:05
Speaker 1: remote or something like that. Yeah, some elements of his personality.
17:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think as far as that goes, if they
17:11
Speaker 2: had explored that further, I think that could have been
17:12
Speaker 2: interesting because then you could get like this fragmented character
17:16
Speaker 2: study of whose Sepharroth is as a person problem is
17:20
Speaker 2: I feel, in my opinion Sephroth never had that interesting
17:22
Speaker 2: per personality to begin with, so it kind of causes
17:24
Speaker 2: all of them to suffer too. But he at least
17:27
Speaker 2: has like the I'm cool and intimidating and I Am
17:31
Speaker 2: terrifying kind of thing going for him, which I feel
17:34
Speaker 2: like these villains didn't quite inherit. But yeah, if they
17:39
Speaker 2: had explored like real personality like study, I feel like
17:43
Speaker 2: this could have been interesting psychologically.
17:45
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I absolutely agree that that's where this really
17:48
Speaker 1: could have been interesting. But instead they like they have
17:52
Speaker 1: this the groundwork for a psychological study in Sufferroth in
17:55
Speaker 1: cloud and whatnot, but instead they gave us actually anime
18:01
Speaker 1: or something and it and so it's fully delivered on
18:05
Speaker 1: either front.
18:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I remember them being kind of
18:10
Speaker 2: whiny as well, at least cadaj Right. Again, a villain
18:15
Speaker 2: being whitey usually doesn't feel right, except if you you
18:18
Speaker 2: could pitch it right, but it's hard, and I feel
18:20
Speaker 2: like he didn't do that here.
18:22
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I think it could be really interesting
18:24
Speaker 1: if if that component of seff Roth like revealed that
18:30
Speaker 1: vulnerability within him in a more of a subtle or
18:34
Speaker 1: more of a dramatic kind of way, where you know,
18:36
Speaker 1: it just kind of comes out. It's not just his character,
18:38
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's something that gets revealed through this
18:41
Speaker 1: fragmented personalities, fragmented psychological study. But yeah, again, it's just
18:47
Speaker 1: it's too too happitive to do that. It didn't it
18:50
Speaker 1: didn't go below the surface to do that.
18:53
Speaker 3: You know, this is making me almost wish we had some.
18:56
Speaker 2: Alternate reality version where we had fragmented versions of kafkas
19:00
Speaker 2: personality for probles, He's six.
19:01
Speaker 3: What the heck would that have been? But that's a
19:04
Speaker 3: crazy what if?
19:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean Sepharroth is obviously heavily pulled out
19:12
Speaker 1: of Kefka. Very similar personalities, very similar mindsets. But Kefka
19:18
Speaker 1: surely has more personality to him.
19:21
Speaker 2: Kefka is at least more fun. That's the difference in
19:23
Speaker 2: my mind, because he has the joker thing going on,
19:26
Speaker 2: whereas Sepharroth is more just on moody and I hate things.
19:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much, Kefka is the nehlistic joker. Sephroth's just
19:34
Speaker 1: the Knilis. Yeah.
19:37
Speaker 2: How did you feel about how they handled Tifa's character?
19:39
Speaker 1: Yeah? Maybe this is just my perception, but I feel
19:42
Speaker 1: like in the original Final Things he seven, she was
19:44
Speaker 1: a little bit rougher. Then we get in Avant Children
19:48
Speaker 1: or in even the remake games, I feel like she's
19:50
Speaker 1: a little bit softer. But I mean overall, I mean,
19:52
Speaker 1: I'm pretty comfortable with her character and Avant Children, I
19:55
Speaker 1: don't feel like it's a great movement away from her
19:59
Speaker 1: core character. It's so I'm pretty satisfied with her. What
20:03
Speaker 1: do you think? Uh?
20:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I remember feeling like she's kind of
20:08
Speaker 2: fulfilling mainly her role relative to Cloud, which is that
20:12
Speaker 2: she's his emotional stabilization to where he would feel completely
20:20
Speaker 2: aimless and just frustrated with everything if it weren't for her.
20:23
Speaker 2: But she, like because of her softness and her care
20:26
Speaker 2: for him, like helps him have a place of peace,
20:30
Speaker 2: so to speak, which that has interesting ramifications for like
20:35
Speaker 2: exploration of relationships, because like that's one thing I think
20:40
Speaker 2: we as men desire and like a spouse is someone
20:43
Speaker 2: who is a place of peace for us and believes
20:48
Speaker 2: in us and supports us and is a place to
20:52
Speaker 2: be vulnerable with. And I feel like Tifa does still
20:55
Speaker 2: come across here as being that for Cloud, even though
20:57
Speaker 2: he's struggling with that. I don't know that I how
21:01
Speaker 2: much I feel like it really explored that, but that
21:03
Speaker 2: is still I think what she's doing.
21:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I feel bad for I mean, you know,
21:08
Speaker 1: she she dealt with the mess that is Cloud's mind,
21:12
Speaker 1: you know, throughout the game, and then she's just is
21:15
Speaker 1: still dealing with the same stuff of this moody guy
21:18
Speaker 1: who has no idea who he is. So I mean,
21:20
Speaker 1: she's definitely a hero of the story. You know, she's
21:24
Speaker 1: a I was about to say that she's like his uh,
21:29
Speaker 1: same wives, but that could bring us into weird territories.
21:31
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that.
21:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that there is a truth.
21:35
Speaker 2: Same wise, I think who the fulfills that role?
21:39
Speaker 1: Right? No?
21:40
Speaker 3: No, yeah, there's uh.
21:45
Speaker 1: I'm also trying to think.
21:46
Speaker 2: I feel like there was a lot of screen time
21:47
Speaker 2: with Rufus and the Turks too, Like, I don't know
21:51
Speaker 2: that they get much interesting to do. They kind of
21:54
Speaker 2: the Turks get treated kind of like almost comedy relief here,
21:57
Speaker 2: which is not too different from the games, right, and
22:01
Speaker 2: also people to fight with while we're.
22:03
Speaker 1: At it, Right, it was interesting seeing the Turks and
22:06
Speaker 1: I guess what's left of Shinra broadly being on the
22:09
Speaker 1: same side of cloud and it. I mean, I didn't
22:13
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how to define who Rufus is
22:16
Speaker 1: in this movie. I mean, so is Shitra basically shattered
22:21
Speaker 1: at this point?
22:23
Speaker 2: I think so? So, I mean the whole city of
22:29
Speaker 2: mid Guard, I know, is like in the aftermath of
22:31
Speaker 2: meteor and so it's kind of a wreck. But yeah,
22:36
Speaker 2: rufe is somehow surviving. He is clearly like a vestige
22:39
Speaker 2: of whatever is left of Shinra and he is, like
22:45
Speaker 2: we watched a few minutes of it earlier today. He
22:48
Speaker 2: does like have a scene really early on where he
22:50
Speaker 2: like expresses remorse of some level for what Shinra's role
22:56
Speaker 2: in what happened to the planet, which clearly Cloud is
22:59
Speaker 2: does want to hear any of it, because Cloud is
23:01
Speaker 2: all moody this entire time, But that is an interesting
23:04
Speaker 2: thing for his character, Like, even if it was cynical,
23:06
Speaker 2: he was just saying that to get Cloud's help, it
23:08
Speaker 2: is still him willing to give an admission of yeah, okay,
23:13
Speaker 2: maybe we were not running things very well back then.
23:17
Speaker 2: And I do think Rufus in the games, and you
23:21
Speaker 2: see this summon rebirth as well playing through it, I
23:24
Speaker 2: think I legitimately do think Rufus is a fairly interesting
23:27
Speaker 2: villain and in my opinion, more interesting than Zephyr Off.
23:32
Speaker 2: He just doesn't get as much to do. But Rufus
23:37
Speaker 2: is like a character who knows how to like look
23:41
Speaker 2: like he might be not totally evil sometimes, but at
23:46
Speaker 2: the same time he has his plotting always going on
23:48
Speaker 2: in the background, so you're never quite sure when you're
23:50
Speaker 2: listening to him, are you legit right now or not?
23:55
Speaker 2: Or are you trying to manipulate me, and I think
23:57
Speaker 2: that does make for an interesting character because it means
23:59
Speaker 2: you're thinking every time they're on the screen about what
24:01
Speaker 2: does this mean that they're doing right?
24:04
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think one thing that makes him such
24:06
Speaker 1: an interesting character is that he does kind of stand
24:09
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle between Cloud and Sufferroth and that
24:13
Speaker 1: obviously he's a bad guy and Shindra's a bad corporation,
24:16
Speaker 1: but they also don't like Sufferroth very much, and so
24:19
Speaker 1: that on that level kind of puts them on the
24:22
Speaker 1: same side of Cloud regarding the ultimate existential threat here.
24:27
Speaker 1: And so you know, by the time that Genra is
24:29
Speaker 1: this broken corporation and Rufus is this pretty broken man,
24:32
Speaker 1: but physically as well as more socially or psychologically how
24:37
Speaker 1: we're going to frame that, you know, he's very very
24:44
Speaker 1: much able to reach out to Cloud, that the Turks
24:46
Speaker 1: are basically fighting on the same side of him, and
24:48
Speaker 1: so that does provide a sort of an interesting dynamic that,
24:52
Speaker 1: in the light of the greater threat that it makes
24:56
Speaker 1: unlikely friends. And so you know, Cloud and the Turks
24:59
Speaker 1: are basically fighting together. So that's kind of interesting. I
25:03
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know how much more to say
25:05
Speaker 1: about that. It's kind of interesting.
25:07
Speaker 2: That is kind of a thing that you see in
25:08
Speaker 2: a lot of fund basic games though. That's a common
25:11
Speaker 2: trope is that you have the villains you think you're
25:14
Speaker 2: fighting for like a while, like until the halfway point
25:17
Speaker 2: of the game, say, and then it turns out, oh no,
25:20
Speaker 2: there's this much worse evil going on, which half the
25:23
Speaker 2: time the villains you were fighting in the first place,
25:25
Speaker 2: it's basically somebody they had on their side who got
25:27
Speaker 2: out of their control, and then that becomes the bigger villain.
25:30
Speaker 2: And then suddenly it's like, well, maybe we had that
25:32
Speaker 2: initial villain or not entirely all the opposite sides. I
25:35
Speaker 2: guess we should figure out somebody to work together. It's
25:37
Speaker 2: this more horrible thing like you see that a little
25:40
Speaker 2: bit in Fumbasi six, where's the empire, and then out
25:44
Speaker 2: of that comes Keefka, and then Kefka is like, all right,
25:46
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill the emperor and just do my
25:48
Speaker 2: own thing. And like Fambaci seven obviously is Shinra, and
25:53
Speaker 2: then Sepherroth, I think Fromtasy nine has something similar where
25:58
Speaker 2: there's an empire and then there's Kuja along who has
26:00
Speaker 2: a fight with the evil Queen's that's like a common
26:05
Speaker 2: thing where they like to play villains against each other,
26:07
Speaker 2: and that kind of gives you a sense of how
26:09
Speaker 2: evil and terrible the bigger villain is that these other villains,
26:14
Speaker 2: who were pretty powerful to begin with, cannot deal with
26:17
Speaker 2: this worst thing, and so that helps you give a
26:20
Speaker 2: sense of escalation of threats. As far as compelling like themes,
26:24
Speaker 2: I don't know how compelling that is as a theme,
26:25
Speaker 2: other than be careful messing with evil things because they
26:29
Speaker 2: can't absolutely get out of your control. That does have
26:33
Speaker 2: interesting socialo political ramifications to explore. But here we're not
26:39
Speaker 2: really seeing the fight against Shinra anymore other than Cloud's
26:43
Speaker 2: grumpiness with them. We're just kind of still dealing with them,
26:47
Speaker 2: with Shinra figuring out or what's left of Shinrack, with
26:49
Speaker 2: Rufus trying to figure out what can he do to
26:52
Speaker 2: work with Cloud against this common enemy. But anyway, I
26:56
Speaker 2: don't know, I find it interesting, just I don't know
26:58
Speaker 2: how much more to get out of that.
27:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think the most interesting things that this
27:07
Speaker 1: movie does centers around Cloud. The kind of things I
27:10
Speaker 1: was talking about about dealing with the past dealing the trauma. Literally,
27:13
Speaker 1: Cloud has a death and rebirth experience where after he
27:18
Speaker 1: beats Zephyrroth and then he kind of goes back into
27:22
Speaker 1: this fragment thing that dies the villain that you've been
27:25
Speaker 1: seen for most of the movie. You know, then Cloud
27:27
Speaker 1: gets shot because they say, you know, if we're going
27:29
Speaker 1: back to life Stream, you're coming with us. But then
27:31
Speaker 1: he wakes up in the pool of life Stream water
27:35
Speaker 1: or something in Earth's church and then that's where he
27:40
Speaker 1: comes back to and starts baptizing the kids. So you know,
27:43
Speaker 1: the way forward for Cloud was literally death and rebirth.
27:47
Speaker 1: You have to, you know, let certain parts of yourself
27:50
Speaker 1: go in order to live anew to the person and
27:54
Speaker 1: purpose that you're meant to have. And so I think
27:58
Speaker 1: that there's something that's probably the most interesting the thing
28:00
Speaker 1: that it does. But that's about all as it's like
28:06
Speaker 1: really interesting things that does I get.
28:08
Speaker 2: I guess one thing that makes me think about is
28:10
Speaker 2: what are your feelings on the live stream in general
28:13
Speaker 2: as a mechanic in all of the f F seven media.
28:16
Speaker 2: I feel like it's almost, like you said, it's using
28:20
Speaker 2: it in like a baptismal sense here where it's clearly
28:24
Speaker 2: playing off of religious associations that as Christians have with
28:31
Speaker 2: water and its use for us, like normally symbolically, but
28:36
Speaker 2: in the case of F seven it's much more literal.
28:39
Speaker 2: It's like this liquid is literally a healing, life giving thing.
28:44
Speaker 2: How do you feel about how they're playing with the
28:47
Speaker 2: religious and faith based mechanics of.
28:49
Speaker 1: That, well, I feel like even that element would certainly
28:52
Speaker 1: be acceptable to I mean to denominations that take a
28:57
Speaker 1: baptismal regeneration approach of baptism, Like literally, it does something
29:02
Speaker 1: even more than symbolic until on that level, I think
29:05
Speaker 1: that there are many people who would appreciate that. Now
29:08
Speaker 1: as far as like, okay broader, I mean, the live
29:10
Speaker 1: stream obviously has pantheistic connotations to it. That fundamentally all
29:16
Speaker 1: things are one seems to be the idea here, and
29:21
Speaker 1: that all things happened sort of according to this endless cycles,
29:25
Speaker 1: and so I fundamentally it's not a Christian story. However,
29:30
Speaker 1: we know that Final Fantasy has no problem pulling from
29:32
Speaker 1: all kinds of religions and mythologies and hodgepotching it all together,
29:36
Speaker 1: and so on one hand, this is like when I
29:38
Speaker 1: was watching the movie today, it is clearly a baptism
29:43
Speaker 1: scene taking place in this church, a very Christian scene there,
29:47
Speaker 1: but obviously it's happening on top of some very Eastern ideas.
29:51
Speaker 1: And really what it comes down to, I'm I don't
29:55
Speaker 1: really have any problem with how they handle the live stream.
29:59
Speaker 1: I think I think that, for one thing, this is
30:03
Speaker 1: a secondary world, and so I don't think it's first
30:06
Speaker 1: and foremost a philosophical text or a theological text, even
30:10
Speaker 1: if there may be philosophical and theological ramifications, as are
30:13
Speaker 1: to any story. And so, you know, do I think
30:16
Speaker 1: it's literally true? Will No? Do I think it's even
30:19
Speaker 1: philosophically true? Well, perhaps in some level in that I
30:24
Speaker 1: believe that as a Christian that existence is fundamentally good,
30:28
Speaker 1: and the life stream seems to be fundamentally good, which
30:32
Speaker 1: is why you know Earth, for example, who has the
30:36
Speaker 1: special connection to the life stream. You know, even in
30:38
Speaker 1: her death, she is waging some kind of war against Seffarroth. Like,
30:43
Speaker 1: it's clear that even within the life stream there is
30:45
Speaker 1: such a thing as good and evil. And so to
30:47
Speaker 1: that extent, I would say it's not entirely pantheistic, because
30:50
Speaker 1: in true pantheism, there is no real good and evil
30:54
Speaker 1: that there can't because there's no transcendent standard, there's no
30:57
Speaker 1: transcendent judge to judge between that to make those lines.
31:02
Speaker 1: And so I would say the fact that there is real,
31:03
Speaker 1: genuine good and evil even in the live stream. Actually,
31:07
Speaker 1: it's it's very easy to appropriate some of these ideas
31:11
Speaker 1: into a Christian framework, even if it's not explicitly Christian
31:17
Speaker 1: in its framework. So I don't know, that wasn't super clear,
31:21
Speaker 1: It's kind of rambling, But basically I think there's some
31:23
Speaker 1: elements to this idea that as there are elements to
31:26
Speaker 1: most religions that I think are good and true as
31:29
Speaker 1: a Christian, even if I can't take it entirely.
31:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like, I mean, obviously it has environmentalists
31:39
Speaker 2: implications here, and the themes which all F seven is
31:43
Speaker 2: playing with. One interesting to me is like, although the
31:46
Speaker 2: livestream has clearly religious connotations here, it's also basically, do
31:51
Speaker 2: I understand it, like a manifestation of the planet's life
31:56
Speaker 2: giving nature, and the planet is across all the F
32:00
Speaker 2: seven media is portrayed as a somewhat vulnerable thing, like
32:03
Speaker 2: it's not an invincible deity because like that's a lot
32:08
Speaker 2: of the threat of Seffrov is he wants to actually
32:10
Speaker 2: just blow the whole thing up. Shinra is draining its power,
32:13
Speaker 2: and that's not infinite. It would eventually run out of Mako.
32:17
Speaker 2: That's why the macho harvest think is bad. So it's
32:19
Speaker 2: clearly a theme of at least in OgF seven. I
32:22
Speaker 2: don't know there's so much of it in Advent Children,
32:24
Speaker 2: but it's kind of playing off the themes.
32:26
Speaker 1: Carried over.
32:28
Speaker 2: Where it's like take care of like the planet, because
32:32
Speaker 2: that the planet is the only way you can even
32:34
Speaker 2: have life at all, because it's that source of it,
32:38
Speaker 2: which once you look at it like that, then it's
32:41
Speaker 2: not really like playing with like what we associate as
32:44
Speaker 2: primary religious belief, which is belief in an infinite god.
32:48
Speaker 2: God can't be destroyed like he but he does provide
32:53
Speaker 2: us with life, like he's the source of life. In
32:55
Speaker 2: the fun PHASA seven world, the planet is the source
32:58
Speaker 2: of life, but the planet could also be destroyed. It's
33:00
Speaker 2: more take care of it so you still have it
33:03
Speaker 2: less than like honor and seek the true divine so
33:09
Speaker 2: you will have a relationship with him because that relationship
33:11
Speaker 2: is what gives you life. It's a different way of
33:14
Speaker 2: looking at religion. So you could argue it's not even
33:19
Speaker 2: religions we understand it in that sense, and it's almost
33:23
Speaker 2: moorthogonal to true religious thought.
33:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fair. Although it is interesting that
33:31
Speaker 1: like the life stream, and obviously it's where the people
33:34
Speaker 1: get life, it's where the life force of people goes
33:38
Speaker 1: when they die, and so you know, it's it's obviously
33:42
Speaker 1: not just like a material fuel source. It is something spiritual.
33:46
Speaker 1: It is both physical and metaphysical, and there's really no
33:49
Speaker 1: way to separate those two when you consider the fact
33:53
Speaker 1: that like it's tied to the energy, you know, serving
33:58
Speaker 1: a purpose like oil or something, but also it's literally
34:01
Speaker 1: the life force that causes living things to move and
34:05
Speaker 1: breathe and to think and to have their being, and
34:08
Speaker 1: so you know, it's both material as well as spiritual
34:11
Speaker 1: as physical, it's also metaphysical, and yeah, I don't know
34:15
Speaker 1: that we can totally disentangle all that, and so it
34:21
Speaker 1: is kind of this interesting blend of religion, philosophy, fantasy,
34:25
Speaker 1: and sci fi when you kind of approach it from
34:27
Speaker 1: all these different angles.
34:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not as much on the religious, but
34:33
Speaker 2: I do find it really interesting that the fantasy that
34:37
Speaker 2: I see come out of Japan and anime and video
34:39
Speaker 2: games is a lot more willing to combine like sci
34:43
Speaker 2: fi and fantastical elements, I think than Western media is.
34:47
Speaker 2: And that's one reason I like is I like blending
34:49
Speaker 2: those genres, and I feel like in the fantasy space
34:52
Speaker 2: is where you get some of these interesting metaphysical concepts
34:56
Speaker 2: more than sci fi will sometimes play with that, but
34:59
Speaker 2: you usually it will try to give like a materialistic
35:02
Speaker 2: explanation for everything where it can with exceptions for sure,
35:08
Speaker 2: but like it's sci fi sometimes doesn't maintain the spiritual
35:14
Speaker 2: wonder that you get in fantasy. And so when you
35:17
Speaker 2: see the two combined, like I find that really interesting
35:20
Speaker 2: because obviously, if you have a sufficiently present magical force
35:26
Speaker 2: that people can access, people will try to scientifically figure
35:30
Speaker 2: out how to use it. And so that's clearly what
35:33
Speaker 2: Shinra was doing, was trying to figure out how do
35:35
Speaker 2: we harvest this for energy for machines, So what magic
35:38
Speaker 2: tech was in f six. So it's a theme that's
35:40
Speaker 2: played with a lot in Bombasi and a lot in
35:43
Speaker 2: Eastern media in general. I feel like, I don't know,
35:46
Speaker 2: that's kind of a rambling thought, but it's something I
35:48
Speaker 2: find interesting when you mix those different elements. Yeah, and
35:52
Speaker 2: I think that it can be kind of troubling, just
35:55
Speaker 2: because it reveals the complexity of life, that the spiritual
36:00
Speaker 2: and the material are directly connected, and so there are
36:05
Speaker 2: it's sometimes it's very difficult to separate out fantasy from
36:08
Speaker 2: sci fi, And unfortunately Michael Kaine's not here to get
36:11
Speaker 2: involved in that conversation, but it I think that is
36:17
Speaker 2: one thing that makes Final Fantasy seven in particular, plus
36:21
Speaker 2: so many Final Fantasy stories very difficult to parse out
36:25
Speaker 2: because of how they're blending those things together. But I
36:28
Speaker 2: think that also reveals something about just the complexity of
36:32
Speaker 2: life and the situation in which we find ourselves in
36:35
Speaker 2: which we are inescapably connected to technology and things that can,
36:40
Speaker 2: you know, very easily be classed as sci fi in
36:42
Speaker 2: our primary world, but trying to understand that in relation
36:46
Speaker 2: to the theological, to the spiritual, to the metaphysical, like
36:50
Speaker 2: it's it's very difficult to parse all of that out.
36:53
Speaker 2: And I think that that's one reason why Final Phantasy
36:56
Speaker 2: seven is actually so compelling, in that it deals with
36:59
Speaker 2: those comples. I mean, even like Genova, for example, it
37:03
Speaker 2: is this alien that we don't really know much about
37:06
Speaker 2: other than that a long time ago this alien crashed
37:08
Speaker 2: on the planet and wanted to destroy it. That is
37:12
Speaker 2: really the background for everything else that plays out from
37:15
Speaker 2: that point forward. And so you know right that that
37:17
Speaker 2: right there, you've got the sci fi but also have
37:20
Speaker 2: the existential being directly applied to this character that is
37:25
Speaker 2: going to drive the rest of the story. Yeah, and
37:28
Speaker 2: Genova is like one of the most unsubtle names.
37:31
Speaker 1: In all of Oile fantasy.
37:33
Speaker 2: Such a weird, weird name, but so somewhat of a tangent.
37:40
Speaker 2: But have you explored the ideas like people have about
37:44
Speaker 2: the connections between Advent Children's story and five seven Remakes
37:48
Speaker 2: story because some people think Remake follows up on Advent Children.
37:55
Speaker 1: So what would the connections be, Because you know, I've
37:59
Speaker 1: now played Make and then we've seen the movie, so
38:01
Speaker 1: I was thinking about the movie while I was playing
38:03
Speaker 1: the game. So what would be the connection out of
38:06
Speaker 1: the theory or whatever.
38:07
Speaker 2: So the one I've heard, and I'm not sure that
38:09
Speaker 2: I think this one holds water or not. I just
38:12
Speaker 2: find it an interesting idea, you know how on and
38:17
Speaker 2: I don't think this is meaningful spoiler like in remake,
38:19
Speaker 2: you basically kind of have two Sepharrofs running around. You
38:22
Speaker 2: have the sephar Off you meet at the beginning, who
38:25
Speaker 2: seems very hyper aware of everything that's going on, and
38:27
Speaker 2: then you also have the main set off from original
38:29
Speaker 2: five minetsy seven that you're finding is the villain the
38:31
Speaker 2: whole time. And of course you get the whole idea
38:33
Speaker 2: of clones. We'll set aside the clones. The idea is
38:38
Speaker 2: that the Sepharroth you see revived in Advent Children at
38:44
Speaker 2: the end, he doesn't truly die. He disappears because somehow
38:48
Speaker 2: he went back in time, and that's the sephar Off
38:51
Speaker 2: you see in remakeh I'm not sure that's accurate or not.
38:56
Speaker 2: I've just always been in love with that idea ever
38:58
Speaker 2: since i've heard it, because it's just so saying that
39:00
Speaker 2: they would that, Like, sure, let's see what you guys
39:04
Speaker 2: do if you're gonna follow that bath.
39:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean at this point, I'm totally okay with
39:09
Speaker 1: them jumping the shark and make it things as crazy
39:11
Speaker 1: as possible.
39:12
Speaker 3: I mean, that's where these games get fun.
39:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, obviously we're not gonna know until revelation
39:19
Speaker 1: if if then, which is the next game, if anyone,
39:23
Speaker 1: let's do I'm not talking about the Book of the Bible.
39:27
Speaker 1: Yeah so, but it's definitely an interesting theory at least.
39:31
Speaker 1: Yeah completely, i'd really have But since you mentioned Revelation
39:35
Speaker 1: f fact, right after Fabay seven, Revelation got announced like
39:38
Speaker 1: the same week, uh, Nintendo announced Zeno Blade Genesis. So
39:43
Speaker 1: we're getting major like hyper metaphysical RPGs form both ends
39:49
Speaker 1: of the the booical spectrum. Interesting. Uh, we'll have to
39:55
Speaker 1: dive into that when the time comes. Yeah.
39:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, if we ever have talks of z in a Blade,
39:59
Speaker 2: which by the way, do have interesting theological things to discuss,
40:04
Speaker 2: even though they're in some ways absolutely insane, much like
40:06
Speaker 2: Fon Fancy is at times.
40:07
Speaker 3: But they're interesting. But that's completely different series.
40:10
Speaker 1: Obviously. What do you have anything els to say on
40:15
Speaker 1: adamand Children.
40:17
Speaker 3: I don't think so.
40:17
Speaker 2: I think we've explored all my thoughts on it, which
40:20
Speaker 2: we're not really that much, and it kind of came
40:22
Speaker 2: back to talking a lot about the games. I think
40:25
Speaker 2: one thing that struck me when I was going back
40:27
Speaker 2: over the synopsis is like, Wow, they found found a
40:29
Speaker 2: way to bring Zach into some degree of relevance of
40:32
Speaker 2: the story again.
40:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, he gets like like such a.
40:34
Speaker 2: Weird character, like because he's dead by the time of
40:38
Speaker 2: the first game, and somehow you keep seeing him somehow
40:41
Speaker 2: in different ways.
40:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's it's interesting because I guess once Cloud started
40:50
Speaker 1: to remember more or pieces together, you know, he developed
40:55
Speaker 1: this I mean attachment to to Zach and and to
40:59
Speaker 1: his into you know, even moving forward, he never could
41:03
Speaker 1: really shake that connection he had to Zach, and so
41:06
Speaker 1: I think it's it makes sense that they keep bringing
41:10
Speaker 1: him back, and obviously he has some kind of fan
41:12
Speaker 1: appeal to him. But yeah, and so at the very end,
41:17
Speaker 1: when Cloud gets this vision of Earth and Zach, you know,
41:23
Speaker 1: if you aren't familiar with the games, you have no
41:25
Speaker 1: idea who these people are, especially Zach, who has not
41:29
Speaker 1: really been mentioned at all until this very end the
41:32
Speaker 1: little snapshot. But but yeah, so he did make a return.
41:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I.
41:37
Speaker 2: Wonder if we should revisit the Zach conversation after you
41:39
Speaker 2: finished from the Seven Rebirth, because it's doing a lot
41:41
Speaker 2: of stuff with his character, and I'm starting to think
41:45
Speaker 2: more about his relationship to who Cloud is in his
41:48
Speaker 2: sense of identity, and I think that might be what
41:52
Speaker 2: they're trying to explore when they whenever they're bringing Zach
41:54
Speaker 2: on screen because of Cloud, having that fragmented memory that's
41:59
Speaker 2: shared with Zach does like affect who he is and
42:02
Speaker 2: who he chooses to be calm, But I don't know's
42:06
Speaker 2: He's a very strange character in how he's used, I feel,
42:10
Speaker 2: which could be interesting depending on where the Tobaus seven
42:13
Speaker 2: remake games go.
42:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, but overall, I mean, I feel like it's a
42:21
Speaker 1: fun movie if you like Final Fantasy seven, but there's
42:24
Speaker 1: definitely a lot of untop potential for things that it
42:26
Speaker 1: could have been. As you said, they're obviously trying to
42:29
Speaker 1: do some kind of art project here, but they nearly
42:32
Speaker 1: deep enough to make it truly a project of art.
42:35
Speaker 1: So I don't know, fun, I guess, but disappointing thinking
42:39
Speaker 1: about all the things that they could have done with it.
42:41
Speaker 1: So that's my analysis. But yeah, I appreciate you joining
42:46
Speaker 1: me on that on this conversation, and see next time
42:49
Speaker 1: were split up here on the movies podcast, we will
42:52
Speaker 1: be getting to the Truman Show as we talked about,
42:55
Speaker 1: and then over on the games podcast we will be
42:57
Speaker 1: continuing with Final Fantasy seven rebirth. I will talk to
43:01
Speaker 1: you then, So, yeah, m HM