Latest / The Play Therapy Circle / Episode 43- Back to Basics PLUS Listener Question Answered

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Episode 43- Back to Basics PLUS Listener Question Answered · The Play Therapy Circle

• 0:00
  Hi there and welcome to the Play Therapy Circle.
• 0:04
  Before we begin, Please note this podcast is for
• 0:07
  informational and educational purposes only.
• 0:10
  It does not provide therapeutic advice and listening does not
• 0:14
  create a client therapist relationship.
• 0:17
  All views expressed are my own and any case example shared have
• 0:21
  been de identified to protect privacy.
• 0:24
  If you're seeking personal support, please reach out to a
• 0:27
  qualified mental health professional in your area.
• 0:33
  Hi and welcome to an episode of The Play Therapy Circle.
• 0:38
  I'm Kylie Ellison, a therapist, clinical supervisor and play
• 0:42
  therapy trainer and I'm so grateful you're here.
• 0:45
  This podcast is a space for thoughtful, soulful
• 0:49
  conversations about child centred therapy, play based work
• 0:53
  and what it means to show up with presence and compassion,
• 0:57
  both for our clients and for ourselves.
• 1:00
  Whether you're a seasoned play therapist, a student just
• 1:03
  starting out, or someone deeply passionate about working with
• 1:07
  children, you belong here. Hey everyone, and welcome back
• 1:15
  to the Play Therapy Circle podcast.
• 1:17
  I'm your host, Kylie Ellison, and I am so glad you are here.
• 1:23
  Hey everyone, I'm back. I'm back on the mic.
• 1:28
  It's been a second. It's probably only been awake.
• 1:31
  I'm being dramatic, but I'm back, I'm back, I'm back.
• 1:35
  I had an awesome week last week in Cairns in Far North
• 1:40
  Queensland, so shout out to our Cairnslessness wherever you are
• 1:44
  in the world. I had a wonderful time.
• 1:48
  I got the chance to present at the Early Years Conference in
• 1:52
  Cairns in Far North Queensland, so that was awesome.
• 1:54
  I had the best time but it's kind of ended 3 weeks of manic
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  travel for me and my family. So I had my first day back kind
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  of to normal life because I flew back yesterday afternoon from
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  Cairns. So it's Monday here.
• 2:12
  You guys like this is like me starting the week trying to be
• 2:16
  organised you guys. And for anyone who's been
• 2:18
  listening, you know, that's very hard for me to do.
• 2:21
  So I am rather impressed with myself that I am recording this
• 2:24
  at 7:30 on Monday night. Woo, this is great.
• 2:27
  You guys, this is great. Listen, we're not going to call
• 2:29
  it too early because probably next week I'll be busy and I'll
• 2:32
  forget. But so far this week, so good.
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  I even went for a walk with my dog this morning.
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  So for anyone who follows us on social media, you will see me
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  checking in throughout the day. I've just made it like my
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  personal life blog over on my stories on Instagram.
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  So if anyone has Instagram and wants to follow along the
• 2:50
  hecticness, that is my day today.
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  I was just doing life admin and I don't know if anyone else is
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  like that where you just pile up just the boring stuff that you
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  need to do. So like go to the doctor, go to
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  the chiro. I had to go to the dry cleaners.
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  Like, you know, the really exciting stuff that you want to
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  do on your day off, right. But I got I got it sorted.
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  Sue in good intention that for the rest of the week I will be
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  organised. Let's see how the rest of the
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  week pans out to be fair. So hello everyone.
• 3:22
  I hope you've had a lovely couple of weeks since the last
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  time I recorded an episode. How you're doing, how you're
• 3:29
  doing. I have a really exciting
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  milestone to celebrate because it has been a couple of weeks
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  and I literally just checked before I jumped on the mic to
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  make sure I was up to date with the numbers.
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  We are now, our podcast is now in 70 countries worldwide, 70
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  countries. We are not even one year old
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  yet. I have not even done 50 episodes
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  yet. This is only episode.
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  I don't know what this is 42, this is only episode 42, you
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  guys, and we are in 70 countries.
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  So if you are listening internationally, if you are not
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  from Australia, thank you so much for listening.
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  Our newest country was El Salvador.
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  So if you're listening from El Salvador, welcome, welcome to
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  the circle. We are international, you guys.
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  We are just everywhere. So that's very exciting.
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  So I love that child Centre play therapy is getting out into the
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  community and getting out into the international community.
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  I have to confess, I didn't think it would get to this many
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  countries this fast. So there's that.
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  It's grown a lot quicker than I thought it was.
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  But I should actually check because I want to give a special
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  shout out to kind of our main countries that listen to us like
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  our most listen to countries. The first one obviously is
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  Australia, because we definitely have our supporters here in
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  Australia. The next is United States, so
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  anyone from America. Hello, welcome.
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  I'm so glad that you're here. You make up a big part of our
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  listeners as well. So thank you so much for
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  listening. I'm so grateful.
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  Then the United Kingdom. So that's exciting.
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  And then Ireland. Hello everyone from Ireland.
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  And then in 5th place, not that this is a race or anything, like
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  I don't know why I'm saying it like that, but then Canada, oh
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  and then Germany before New Zealand.
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  So our Canada and German listeners are next on the list.
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  Wow, that is incredible. Hello to everyone in countries
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  other than Australia. I am here in Brisbane, in the
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  Bayside area of Brisbane, in Queensland, one of the states of
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  Australia. So it is so lovely.
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  I'm waving at the camera and you're probably listening on a
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  podcast and you're kind of like, what?
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  What is she doing? Apologies, I am waving to you
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  over the podcast. Thank you so much.
• 5:48
  Thank you for being here. I am truly passionate about
• 5:52
  child centre play therapy. I could talk about it
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  underwater. So I'm really grateful that
• 5:56
  you're happy to listen as well. Thank you so much, truly.
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  I genuinely didn't think I would get many listeners.
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  So this is a big milestone for us.
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  So I'm very, very grateful. So please, please share and
• 6:09
  follow our podcast on Apple, Spotify and wherever you get
• 6:13
  good podcasts. Please feel free to check us out
• 6:16
  on social media, Play therapy Circle podcast, I'm on
• 6:19
  Instagram, feel free to come and join us on Instagram.
• 6:22
  And when I remember TikTok, I really have to get better at
• 6:24
  that, you guys. So this is a big milestone.
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  So what we're going to do is make sure we always do, but just
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  to make sure, I'm making an announcement of this at the
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  beginning of the episode and I'll make sure I say it at the
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  end as well. But if you have a question for
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  me that you would like me to answer on the podcast, I'm very
• 6:42
  happy to do that. I would love to be able to
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  interact more with our play therapy circle community
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  internationally. So if you have a question for
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  me, you can email it to us or go on our social media.
• 6:55
  And direct message, I think is what the kids are saying these
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  days. Yep, I'm 43 and I'm a geriatric
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  colonial. Feel free to message us on
• 7:02
  social media or send us an email.
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  So we'll put the email in the notes of this episode.
• 7:09
  So please send us an email. We love to hear from you.
• 7:13
  So I actually have two listener questions today.
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  I'm beyond excited you guys. Like I'm actually going to get
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  distracted and forget about the content because I'm just so
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  excited. So this is a big milestone.
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  I've never done an episode where we have answered listeners
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  questions. So we're going to do that today
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  you guys. So all questions welcome.
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  I don't know what I have started though by saying that we may, I
• 7:34
  may regret that if you all start emailing me, feel free, feel
• 7:38
  free and I will get distracted and want to answer them all.
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  So I would love that. So what I wanted to do for
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  today's episode, as you can see from the title of it, is go back
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  to basics. I am very conscious of the
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  episodes that everyone loves the most and it genuinely is around
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  the key kind of core components of Child Centre Play therapy and
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  also the neuroscience. So I will keep that in mind with
• 8:08
  future episodes. I thought I had a plan at the
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  start of the year for episode topics and then I always change
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  it like always. So this week I thought I'd go
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  back to basics and answer our listener questions.
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  So we are going to truly go back to basics when we talk about
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  tracking. I want to, I guess, reorientate
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  those who are already in the space practising but also
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  beginning play therapists who are I'm currently training and
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  want to know more to immerse themselves in their studies.
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  This episode is dedicated to you.
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  I think that when I think back to when I did my training 11
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  years ago, now, I'm 2015, I remember tracking feeling very
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  clunky. That's going to be a word I'm
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  going to use that may not mean or make sense to some people.
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  When I say clunky, I'm I'm mindful that what I'm describing
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  is the skill of tracking in child centre play therapy didn't
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  come naturally. And I think that that's really
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  important for us to normalise and acknowledge that when you
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  are learning something new, it's going to feel uncomfortable.
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  So I, I do mention that a lot when I am supporting and working
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  with beginning play therapists as they go through their
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  training journey. I do deliver child centre play
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  therapy training as part of my private practise.
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  So I'm really mindful of what that journey looks like for
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  beginning play therapists. And you know, one of the things
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  that I see over the course of their journey in learning to
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  become a child centre play therapist is in the beginning it
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  feels really uncomfortable. But by the end of it, it's very
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  natural. And I think that that really
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  talks to the fact that with tracking, it's so much around
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  practising the skill. And I really do espouse to, if
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  I've not said it before, I'm sure I did, but I'm going to say
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  it again. I'm really mindful of the roots,
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  I guess of child centre play therapy and the leaders in our
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  space most definitely being Gary Landreth and his textbook Be Out
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  of the Relationship. Really talking about how the
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  skills of child centre play therapy shouldn't just stay in
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  the play. I'm paraphrasing, but shouldn't
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  just stay in the playroom. It should be shared.
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  And I made a point of saying that at the start of my
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  conference presentation the other day, because I wanted to
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  really show an evidence, my intention behind being there,
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  that I wanted to share the skills of child centre play
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  therapy with the early education space for nothing else other
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  than to explain that these skills are something you can use
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  in everyday life. It is something that I use in
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  all of my language, in all of my communication, whether it's
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  standing at the grocery line, you know, waiting for my turn,
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  you know, to get my food, scared.
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  I don't know where I'm going with the story goes, by the way,
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  But I'm standing at the grocery line and, you know, I might have
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  a mom and a child, you know, next to me.
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  And already I might be using language like, oh, you're just
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  showing me that one like that. Just, you know, if they picked
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  up a, you know, something in the cart and they wanted to show me,
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  you know what I'm saying, right? I went for a walk this morning.
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  I'm going to get a more tangible example.
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  I went walking this morning with my dog who is a bordering on
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  4040 kilos or 40 kilogrammes. I don't know what that is in
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  pounds. I want to say it's like 80 lbs.
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  I don't know, I could be, I could be wrong. 40 kilogrammes
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  because that's what we say in Australia, 40 kilogramme more #
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  love that for me because she is very strong and I am not.
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  And by the end of the walk though, she's exhausted because
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  she's unfit like me. So we were almost home and the
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  most awesome experience happened.
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  And when I say these skills live everywhere, they really do
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  because this younger I want to say she was maybe 4 years old,
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  dressed from head to toe in her school uniform.
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  She it was the time ready to get in the car and go to school.
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  By the looks of it. The mum was walking her into the
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  car and she turned around. It was just gorgeous.
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  She turns around and she goes, oh, hello doggy like this to
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  Molly from like across the road. Like this girl had good volume
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  in her voice and it was very easy to hear.
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  And I just said, oh, you're saying hi to my dog.
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  Molly says hi, but like, right, like just tracking, tracking
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  even to the poor girl that was just saying hello to my dog.
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  So tracking lives everywhere. And it is something that once
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  you ingrain it into communication, you can't take it
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  out. So I always say that when I'm
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  treating people, I'm kind of like I, I apologise, but I also
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  don't apologise because this is something that can be part of
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  your approach to building and connecting relationships with
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  children 100%. So what is tracking?
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  Let's get back on task you guys, because I have a plan for this
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  podcast and I'm going off on a tangent talking about my walk
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  this morning. OK, let's do it.
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  So when we're talking about tracking, we are talking about
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  the skill of verbally following and reflecting what the child is
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  doing and saying without leading or without directing.
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  I know that that is definitely something that beginning play
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  therapist struggle with in not asking questions, not asking
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  kind of leading or even open ended questions or starting with
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  I that can certainly be a beginning challenge.
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  So tracking is really about showing the child that you're
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  interested in what they have to say through play.
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  They don't have to use any words, but we get so much
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  information from how they're playing.
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  I always say, and I'm sure I've said this before, that the child
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  doesn't save up their play just for the playroom.
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  It isn't that they build this beautiful sequence of role plays
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  and information they share through play, just for their one
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  hour session with me once a week.
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  The play of a child lives everywhere.
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  It lives in the playground, it lives in the lounge room at
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  home. It lives in their playrooms.
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  It lives when they're waiting for mum to pay at the grocery
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  store and they're starting to play with their toys.
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  It lives everywhere, so it's really important that this is
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  the first skill, excuse me, the first skill in child centre play
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  therapy, that play therapist master.
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  It's very much the foundational skill that all other skills kind
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  of lead from. So it's really important as a
• 15:02
  play therapist that you spend that time practising that skill
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  to really feel comfortable with it.
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  Definitely if you have sat in roles previously or operated in
• 15:12
  roles previously where you were in the lead or you were the one
• 15:15
  that was expected to have the answers or the strategies or to
• 15:19
  provide a structure to the session that you are conducting.
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  I know for myself in the beginning, I've been working in
• 15:26
  the Human Services industry now for over 21 years.
• 15:29
  When I began in my profession, I worked in child protection, I
• 15:33
  had a job within the government and then I worked in non
• 15:35
  government agencies for many years.
• 15:38
  And one of the jobs that I had was in home support to families.
• 15:43
  So there would be clear kind of guidelines and expectations
• 15:47
  around goals and each week what you would be tackling in terms
• 15:52
  of a topic to progress, you know, and show evidence of your
• 15:55
  work. So if you have had any of those
• 15:58
  kinds of roles before becoming a play therapist, it really is
• 16:02
  shifting the gears in a big way. It really is embracing a very
• 16:07
  different framework for practise that doesn't involve you being
• 16:11
  the expert. And again, one of the first
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  things that I loved the most, and I know that many people feed
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  this back too, when I became a play therapist was the pressure
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  was taken off me to have the answers.
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  I loved that. I loved the fact that I didn't
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  have to have a plan. I didn't have to have a
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  worksheet. I didn't have to give psycho
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  education every week to a 10 year old because that never
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  works. But I didn't have to have any
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  kind of structural guidelines to what I was doing.
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  And I certainly didn't have to have the answers because I find
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  that just going off in a tangent, I find that really
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  interesting. When you sit in that space, if
• 16:51
  that is your particular role where if a client is going to
• 16:56
  discuss something in therapy with you that you feel equipped
• 16:59
  to be able to have a response to that, that's a lot of pressure.
• 17:03
  That's a lot of pressure as a therapist.
• 17:05
  And I think for me personally and professionally, it's really
• 17:07
  never sat well for me to be the person that has all of the
• 17:12
  answers for clients because I've never really felt like any of
• 17:19
  the answers I give will be the most true for them, if that
• 17:24
  makes sense. So when we talk about obviously
• 17:26
  our humanistic Karl Rogerian way of being with clients, that very
• 17:32
  closely aligns with my personal professional framework around
• 17:35
  working with clients because very much in that Rogerian way,
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  we value the client as the expert.
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  We value that they know what they need to do or they know
• 17:44
  what they need to unpack or understand.
• 17:48
  They just need a supportive space to do so.
• 17:50
  So anyway, what does tracking skills look like?
• 17:53
  You know, it starts with you or you are.
• 17:55
  That is really important that we are making sure that we are
• 18:01
  following our CCPT approach and protocol and framework for
• 18:05
  practise. So you've picked up that one,
• 18:08
  you've decided to play with that one.
• 18:09
  Now you're looking over there starting with you or you are.
• 18:13
  It's really important. And also making sure that we
• 18:16
  note that we aren't labelling anything until the child labels
• 18:19
  it for us. Again, you know, we have a very
• 18:23
  strong framework around that, around not interpreting too
• 18:27
  early what the child might be playing.
• 18:30
  I have definitely found over the last 11 years, what has been
• 18:33
  really interesting in working with kids is that you can have
• 18:38
  certain expectations or I guess, I guess kind of wonderings or
• 18:46
  thoughts, I guess around what you think the child will play.
• 18:49
  And certainly for children who have experienced trauma, that
• 18:52
  can often be very straightforward that you are
• 18:57
  given the history of the child. And so you are already
• 19:00
  anticipating certain types of play, certain types of trauma
• 19:03
  play based on their clinical history.
• 19:06
  And then I've had clients where in, you know, two or three
• 19:10
  years, they've only played one trauma session, you know, having
• 19:13
  weekly sessions with me as the clinician.
• 19:15
  So I think that we can go in with certain expectations and
• 19:19
  then kids will take us on a very different direction, which is
• 19:21
  why I love this so much because we don't need to know.
• 19:24
  We don't need to have the answers.
• 19:25
  It's it's all within them. So what does tracking do?
• 19:28
  Why are we using these statements of you or you are?
• 19:32
  It really does communicate our core message.
• 19:35
  We have our tenants of CCPT of congruence, empathy and
• 19:38
  unconditional positive regard. But alongside that is that idea
• 19:42
  of I'm really I'm here with you, I'm present with you and what
• 19:45
  you do matters and we talk about that all the time.
• 19:48
  You guys, I need to put that on AT shirt.
• 19:49
  What you do matters and you matter as well.
• 19:52
  I don't know why I'm with bring. We want to then talk about how
• 19:56
  it helps build the relationship and that's why it's a skill that
• 19:58
  can be used anywhere because if you are somebody who does go in
• 20:04
  and do in home support to families.
• 20:06
  And you're meeting a family for the first time.
• 20:08
  Tracking is the perfect skill. It's the perfect skill because
• 20:11
  you can take that curiosity with a child and follow along their
• 20:15
  play to get to know them. And you don't have to have a
• 20:17
  structured activity or you know, certain expectations around what
• 20:21
  you're going to do in terms of engaging with that client of the
• 20:26
  course of your visit. You really can just use that
• 20:29
  particular skill to build that relationship quite naturally for
• 20:33
  for the child. Certainly it helps to support
• 20:37
  some of those basic human capacities that we talk about
• 20:41
  when we go into goal setting in child centre play therapy.
• 20:44
  So I'm wondering actually, as I'm talking out loud, if goal
• 20:47
  setting might be an interesting one for us to do a podcast
• 20:50
  episode on because it certainly is unique in terms of what we do
• 20:58
  and base our goal setting on. I lean into Nancy and Jeff
• 21:04
  Cochran's goal setting approach, which they document in their
• 21:08
  textbook Child Centred Play Therapy.
• 21:10
  I'm a big fan of that textbook as well, if you haven't already
• 21:13
  read it. And, and they talk about the
• 21:15
  different layers of goal setting.
• 21:18
  So the first being symptomology reduction and then the second
• 21:20
  being building human capacities. So when we can help build the
• 21:24
  child's autonomy by letting them take the lead and we follow, it
• 21:30
  helps in building some of those personal skills around self
• 21:33
  direction, self responsibility. It certainly does help us in our
• 21:37
  tenants to convey our unconditional positive regard.
• 21:39
  We have no expectations about how they're going to play or
• 21:42
  what they're going to talk about and we very much let them lead
• 21:47
  so that we can show that we accept them for who they are.
• 21:50
  So some of those common mistakes, I guess though to kind
• 21:54
  of wrap up this topic before we move into our questions is
• 21:58
  definitely over tracking. And I think that that can be
• 22:00
  something, it can be a really fine balance between wanting to
• 22:05
  track to show our interest and the child attempting to gain
• 22:10
  some control over the environment.
• 22:11
  So we're going to talk about that more when we get into our
• 22:14
  listener question. But I think it's something that
• 22:18
  is so important for us to really take our cues from the child and
• 22:22
  really notice what we've talked about before in terms of
• 22:25
  transference and countertransference.
• 22:27
  We can really pick up on that. And so then it can be a scenario
• 22:31
  where we need to pull back a little bit on that tracking,
• 22:35
  leave some space, take a breath. It's certainly important,
• 22:39
  though, that we don't stop tracking just because a child
• 22:42
  might be getting irritated or is starting to dominate over us.
• 22:46
  That's a very different scenario.
• 22:48
  But if we're doing it way too much and it starts to feel a
• 22:51
  little bit awkward, that's a moment to take a breath.
• 22:56
  Certainly labelling that is something that will happen when
• 22:58
  you begin as a play therapist and you are stepping outside of
• 23:03
  your comfort zone, you are doing something different.
• 23:06
  And so it can feel a little bit daunting.
• 23:09
  I guess it's probably the word I want to think of to just track
• 23:15
  without labelling. And also to we know that in
• 23:19
  times of stress, we revert back to what we know.
• 23:21
  And so when we are potentially labelling it, often I find is a
• 23:28
  scenario where therapists are a little bit outside of their
• 23:30
  comfort zone. And so they feel like they need
• 23:32
  to to kind of rein it back in so they feel more comfortable
• 23:36
  unconsciously, of course, this is not a conscious decision.
• 23:38
  And so then labelling kind of slips in, questions starts to
• 23:42
  slip in. I wonder statements starts to
• 23:44
  slip in. So something to be mindful of,
• 23:47
  something to be mindful of asking questions, guys, as
• 23:50
  tracking, I always say this especially to my students when
• 23:56
  you notice what's the word the, Oh my gosh, I'm having a moment
• 24:03
  where I'm like, it's 8:00 at night.
• 24:05
  I'm trying to find a word that I can't think of.
• 24:08
  The tone at the end, the Inflexion.
• 24:10
  Oh my God, I got there in the end.
• 24:11
  Thank you all for sticking around.
• 24:13
  The Inflexion at the end of a question where they'll go.
• 24:18
  You're playing with that one now instead of you're playing with
• 24:21
  that one now. See how the Inflexion is
• 24:24
  different? I feel like anyone outside of
• 24:25
  Australia is going to be like, didn't sound any different to
• 24:28
  me. Do you sound like an Australian
• 24:29
  saying the same thing to us? I apologise, let me try it
• 24:32
  again. I'm going to try and do this so
• 24:34
  everyone can hear me. Man, I hate demonstrations by
• 24:38
  the way, through when you are using an uptick in your
• 24:43
  Inflexion, that is probably not the right way of describing it,
• 24:47
  but that's how I'm going to describe it.
• 24:48
  The Inflexion uptick, yeah, I don't think there's any other
• 24:53
  way to describe it. So when you're saying you're
• 24:55
  putting that one there and it's like you, I'm making it really
• 24:59
  obvious now you guys. So you're not going to do this
• 25:01
  obviously in practise, but if you do that at the end, instead
• 25:04
  of saying you're putting that one there, see how there's a
• 25:07
  difference in how it sits and it lands.
• 25:10
  It's very, the second one when I did it is very much around.
• 25:16
  I'm confident what I'm saying and I'm kind of offering this
• 25:21
  reflection to you with no expectations for feedback
• 25:25
  because really, at the end of the day, it's not about me.
• 25:27
  I don't need to be reassured that I've got it right.
• 25:30
  It's up to the child and the child is doing their work.
• 25:32
  So I'm just there to follow along.
• 25:35
  And I always, always say what I'm teaching is that if you're
• 25:39
  wrong, the child will correct you.
• 25:42
  So this is the rewarding part of being a play.
• 25:44
  Their best is that you don't get that beautiful moment with a
• 25:46
  child where they're like, thank you for seeing me.
• 25:49
  That never happens. Or maybe if it has emailed me,
• 25:53
  tell me a story because I've never heard that.
• 25:56
  No, I'm sure there is situations where that happens, but we say
• 26:00
  that too. I don't know why I'm feeling a
• 26:02
  bit sassy tonight. I will often joke as well with
• 26:07
  students that I am one of those people that doesn't get presents
• 26:10
  from, from clients, which ethically is a great, you know,
• 26:15
  kind of thing to, to not have to deal with.
• 26:17
  But certainly, you know, I've, I've worked with others and I
• 26:21
  and I and my beautiful colleague Eva, I'm sure, sure what we're
• 26:25
  saying often gets presents from her clients.
• 26:27
  And I'm like, what is wrong? Like, do people not love me?
• 26:31
  Like what is happening? So I reassure myself that maybe
• 26:36
  maybe I've just done such a good job, they don't need to give me
• 26:39
  a present. But it's that same idea, right?
• 26:42
  Of kind of, I don't know where I was going with that actually,
• 26:45
  now that I say that. And I have no idea where that
• 26:47
  intention was going other than just say people don't give me
• 26:51
  presents, give me presents. Why?
• 26:53
  I have no idea. Anyway, the infliction is
• 26:58
  important. So, oh, that's what I was going
• 27:00
  to say because they will tell you if you're wrong.
• 27:03
  So that's really important that you are taking your cues from
• 27:07
  the child and give yourself the confidence to have a go.
• 27:11
  If this absolute like, I don't know, synapsis fire of an
• 27:15
  episode gives you nothing else, I hope that it gives you that
• 27:19
  confidence to have a go at tracking.
• 27:22
  That's the important part. Keep it warm, keep it natural
• 27:26
  and practise all of the time. I say practise with your dog,
• 27:31
  with your neighbour, with your cat, whatever you've decided to
• 27:35
  sit there right now, OK? You've decided to have some
• 27:40
  breakfast. I don't know, you really can
• 27:42
  honestly. It is something that you can
• 27:45
  practise all day and it's so important to have a go at it to
• 27:49
  practise. OK, I am like beyond excited to
• 27:53
  read out our very first listener question.
• 27:56
  You guys, this is so good, This is so good.
• 27:59
  And what's even better, we received 2 this month.
• 28:04
  I know I've kind of been saying, hey, send some questions in, but
• 28:07
  I haven't really kind of really said it routinely enough.
• 28:11
  So I'm just so chuffed that we have two people that have sent
• 28:17
  through questions. And the first one is Terry from
• 28:20
  Ireland, which I just love. I love that it's an
• 28:24
  international listener that has sent in a question.
• 28:26
  You are so, so welcome here in the circle.
• 28:29
  Welcome, Terry. So thank you so much.
• 28:31
  I did check with her and make sure I had permission to read
• 28:34
  out her question. So thank you so much, Terry, for
• 28:36
  that. I would like to read out her
• 28:38
  question to you and then we're going to chat about it.
• 28:41
  So I love this. This is so good.
• 28:43
  OK, let's read it out. So Terry asks, can we take the
• 28:47
  idea of people pleasing or neediness or giving commands or
• 28:51
  being controlling or silence or ignoring as when directed
• 28:56
  towards the therapist, and use Bruce Lipton's theory of child
• 29:00
  development going deeper through enlarge and enlargement in
• 29:04
  reflective responding when this behaviour becomes apparent.
• 29:08
  So people pleasing, giving commands, being controlling or
• 29:12
  being silent, How and at what stage do we respond?
• 29:16
  All three of these are relationship.
• 29:19
  I wondered whether doing this too early, when trust is still
• 29:23
  being established might not be the best time.
• 29:26
  Although you might argue against this, are these also unmet
• 29:31
  needs? Practical examples would be
• 29:33
  helpful. Thank you so much, Terry.
• 29:35
  I hope you're still listening because you emailed me this like
• 29:39
  the start of the month. So thank you for your patience
• 29:41
  in me getting to this question. I'm so grateful that you sent
• 29:44
  this through. Thank you so much.
• 29:46
  There is so much to unpack with this question, which is why
• 29:49
  we're putting it out there right as our first question to read
• 29:53
  out. And then obviously I have a
• 29:55
  second one to do as well. So I think everything that you
• 30:00
  have described, the people pleasing, controlling and
• 30:03
  silence, when we're looking at it from Lipton's view of child
• 30:07
  development, where we talk about how in the first five years of
• 30:11
  life, children download without discrimination and understanding
• 30:16
  of relationships with others. So they're downloading through
• 30:19
  every experience, they're taking it on like a sponge.
• 30:22
  Every time they interact with an adult in their life, they are
• 30:25
  taking that on board to say that's how you engage with
• 30:28
  others, that's how you respond to stress, that's how you
• 30:31
  respond to conflict, that's how you respond when somebody does
• 30:35
  something that you don't like, etcetera, etcetera.
• 30:37
  There's so many different aspects of of relationships,
• 30:40
  right? So you have described all of
• 30:42
  them brilliantly in terms of what might have been that
• 30:46
  child's experience relationally. And it does get me curious when
• 30:50
  I do see that in the playroom because they are all aspects of
• 30:55
  an understanding unconsciously of how relationships work,
• 30:59
  whether it's through people pleasing, whether it's through
• 31:01
  controlling or whether it's through silence.
• 31:03
  I think all of them communicate the same thing in some capacity
• 31:07
  or some way that those children may have experienced maladaptive
• 31:13
  attachment relationships or experiences that have solidified
• 31:19
  for them in the first five years of life that that's how you
• 31:22
  interact with someone new or someone different or another
• 31:24
  adult, which is what you are then experiencing in the
• 31:27
  playroom. So I really love that.
• 31:29
  I love that so much. So when we're talking about the
• 31:33
  different scenarios of what that downloading in the first five
• 31:35
  years of life might have been, it might be I must please others
• 31:39
  to keep myself safe. We see the people pleasing.
• 31:42
  I probably said this before Terry, so I apologise and if
• 31:45
  I've already said this, but for people pleasing, my experience
• 31:50
  anecdotally has been that I've seen that a lot with children
• 31:53
  who've experienced domestic violence.
• 31:55
  Why? Because in the first five years
• 31:57
  of life, through those repetitive interactions and
• 32:01
  experiences with other adults, either in the periphery, so just
• 32:05
  observing interactions between adults or them having a direct
• 32:09
  interaction with an adult, that they've learnt that the only way
• 32:13
  to keep myself safe is to make sure that everyone else is
• 32:16
  happy. Because as long as everyone else
• 32:19
  is happy, we don't have conflict in the home.
• 32:21
  And as long as we don't have conflict in the home, then my
• 32:23
  physical safety, my literal life safety isn't at risk.
• 32:28
  So I've had that so often in play therapy where children who
• 32:33
  have a domestic violence background will be more
• 32:36
  interested in how I'm feeling and how I'm doing than
• 32:40
  themselves. So they'll literally come into
• 32:42
  the playroom and say, and how's your day been?
• 32:45
  Are you OK, Have you had a good day?
• 32:47
  What have you been doing? What would you like to do today?
• 32:50
  Like literally kind of word for word exactly what I've seen in
• 32:54
  the playroom. So those people pleasing
• 32:57
  behaviours don't come out of nowhere.
• 32:59
  It certainly is through those first five years of life
• 33:01
  experience, I would argue has a big role in sometimes that
• 33:08
  consolidating or cementing for them their understanding of
• 33:10
  relationships with others, being people pleasing.
• 33:13
  As long as everyone else is happy, I'm safe.
• 33:16
  The next one when you were talking about those controlling
• 33:19
  potential behaviours. So things like bossing you
• 33:22
  around, telling you what to do in the playroom, telling you to
• 33:25
  shut up. All of those things that happen
• 33:26
  right when kids are trying to gain dominance in their space.
• 33:30
  I often lean into when I see that presentation in the
• 33:34
  playroom, the theory of locus of control.
• 33:37
  So when then I also tie in my psychoanalytic lens too.
• 33:42
  So I apologise, I'm I'm crossing over here a little bit.
• 33:45
  But when we see children who need to control in the playroom,
• 33:48
  it often relates to children outside of play therapy having
• 33:52
  an external locus of control. So when they come into the
• 33:55
  playroom, they want to experience what it feels like to
• 33:58
  be in charge, to be in control, because psychoanalytically they
• 34:02
  want to put us that's in the position of them.
• 34:04
  They want us to know what it feels like to be them.
• 34:07
  So they're going to come into the playroom and dominate over
• 34:09
  us. So we feel insignificant, we
• 34:13
  feel dismissed, we feel isolated, we feel excluded
• 34:17
  because that's actually their understanding of the world.
• 34:19
  Based on that, those experiences in the first five years of life
• 34:23
  or I've had an adult that's role model to me, that when you are
• 34:26
  in relationships with others, you are dominated over.
• 34:29
  So they are in charge, they are in the lead often times too.
• 34:33
  If you go into Doctor Peter Grey research, he is, I've probably
• 34:37
  mentioned that as well before in the podcast.
• 34:40
  Doctor Peter Grey is a researcher in the US in the
• 34:43
  Decline of play. He has some fantastic videos on
• 34:46
  YouTube, Please check them out. He talks about that internal
• 34:49
  versus external locus of control and what a lot of the literature
• 34:52
  talks about in terms of that external locus of control being
• 34:56
  so much around then potentially leading to anxiety symptomology.
• 35:01
  So if children feel like everything is happening to them
• 35:04
  that they have no control over, there's often an increase in
• 35:07
  that symptomology of anxiety. So another thing to kind of
• 35:10
  consider when we're looking at that control element and then
• 35:13
  when we're looking at silence, I think that's even probably out
• 35:17
  of those 3, the most powerful and for me as a play therapist,
• 35:21
  the most concerning. And why do I say that?
• 35:24
  Because generally speaking, when you have children, sorry, you
• 35:28
  get clients or children in the playroom who are completely
• 35:32
  withdrawn, silent, mute, so selected mute, always selected
• 35:39
  mute. But sometimes it often talks to
• 35:42
  they've needed to go within in order to kind of cope with
• 35:45
  whatever they've experienced or been exposed to, right?
• 35:48
  So in indifference to other children who might be more
• 35:53
  aggressive, they might be lashing out if they're
• 35:57
  frustrated or angry with the situation.
• 35:59
  Children who go silent have actually kind of gone within as
• 36:02
  a way of, you know, gaining whatever little control they
• 36:05
  have left in their life. That actually is more concerning
• 36:08
  to me because they're not actually communicating how they
• 36:11
  feel that they're kind of bottling it up or they're,
• 36:14
  they're kind of going silent. So it's, it's often that
• 36:19
  children are getting the message through relationships with
• 36:21
  others, either in observing interactions with parents or
• 36:26
  other adults or in their interactions personally with an
• 36:29
  adult, that it's not safe for me to express my feelings or my
• 36:33
  thoughts or my emotions. And so I need to kind of
• 36:37
  withdraw, in fact, to be safe. So I need to, yeah, not, not
• 36:42
  talk, not make any noise, not be a burden, not be a problem to
• 36:47
  others. So I kind of shrink in the
• 36:49
  background. I find that more concerning.
• 36:52
  I don't know if anyone else agrees with me, but I would much
• 36:56
  rather a child that yells at me and that sounds really, I love
• 37:01
  my job, honestly, but I would much rather a child with, you
• 37:06
  know, kind of high levels of aggression, he was communicating
• 37:09
  their frustration than a child that is not.
• 37:11
  That's just my opinion. So are these unmet needs?
• 37:15
  Absolutely, absolutely. People pleasing is often that
• 37:18
  unmet need for unconditional acceptance.
• 37:20
  They they have learnt that love is conditional.
• 37:25
  It is conditional upon, you know, pleasing others and making
• 37:31
  others happy, which we absolutely don't want that to be
• 37:34
  the case for a child. We want them to build their
• 37:36
  internal source of evaluation. We want them to build their
• 37:38
  independence, their self direction and their self
• 37:40
  responsibility. So very important that we are
• 37:45
  helping to support them by, you know, explaining to them and
• 37:48
  expressing to them our unconditional positive regard of
• 37:51
  them. Regardless of how they present.
• 37:54
  We accept them for who they are. The controlling is often that
• 37:57
  unmet need for safety and predictability.
• 37:59
  I feel like things are too chaotic outside of play therapy.
• 38:02
  And so I'm just trying to, in the playroom gain some sense of
• 38:07
  consistency and control. That's why the toys are in the
• 38:10
  exact same spot every time, every week, so that we can
• 38:13
  provide that consistency to children.
• 38:15
  It often, I would argue, becomes one of the few places that are
• 38:19
  consistent for kids who are, say, in the child protection
• 38:24
  space where there might be changing of workers, changing of
• 38:27
  placements, even other therapists, to be honest.
• 38:31
  So if we get that opportunity to work for a consistent amount of
• 38:35
  time and offer, you know, therapy on the same day, same
• 38:38
  time, same space, same therapist, that's an incredible
• 38:41
  amount of predictability and routine for kids that can help
• 38:44
  regulate them. So it certainly does evidence, I
• 38:48
  guess, an unmet need around safety and predictability.
• 38:51
  Silence is often that they have had that experience of it being
• 38:56
  unsafe for them to express themselves.
• 38:58
  And so they're trying to feel that sense of safety.
• 39:01
  So there's maybe been potential danger brought about or or
• 39:05
  potentially rejection. So definitely I want to talk
• 39:08
  about your question, Terry, around practical examples, I
• 39:12
  guess of how you would say it back to a child when we are
• 39:17
  certainly tracking, I guess. But also I want to acknowledge
• 39:22
  your question around the timing. I agree with you that I think
• 39:25
  that I often say, and this isn't necessarily written in any
• 39:30
  textbook, this is very much anecdotal for me that I'm
• 39:34
  constantly information gathering.
• 39:36
  I think that that is really important in child centre play
• 39:39
  therapy because No2 sessions are the same and a child will
• 39:43
  progress through their therapy work at their pace and in their
• 39:45
  way. So I want to, I guess, kind of
• 39:49
  work at their pace to make sure that I'm not making assumptions
• 39:54
  or interpretations too early. Melanie Klein and a fraud would
• 39:57
  agree with me. That is very important that we
• 40:00
  are investing in the therapeutic alliance first, which is what
• 40:04
  tracking does. Tracking helps us.
• 40:06
  For our skill that we've talked about today in this episode, it
• 40:09
  helps us to be able to do that, to build that relationship.
• 40:12
  So I certainly wouldn't go into and I'm I'm not telling you what
• 40:16
  to do. I I absolutely want to make full
• 40:18
  disclaimer and disclosure on what to do and what not to do.
• 40:22
  I certainly would never I'm too Rogerian for that.
• 40:25
  I would never tell you what to do.
• 40:26
  However, I think that it's important to go at the pace of
• 40:29
  the child and we know that from our process.
• 40:31
  So I would certainly lean into taking a minute before we have
• 40:38
  decided, OK, one of the presenting issues for this child
• 40:41
  is people pleasing. People pleasing is one of those
• 40:44
  behaviours in the playroom that it's pretty obvious pretty
• 40:49
  quickly. And I say that because it very
• 40:52
  much often is around the child really trying to make sure that
• 40:56
  we are OK, trying to make us happy, happy, or in their role
• 41:00
  plays, trying to make sure that everyone else is happy.
• 41:02
  So it does tend to show up pretty quickly and pretty
• 41:04
  persistently if we've we've got a child that has started moving
• 41:08
  through the stages of play. So it's not something that you
• 41:11
  necessarily need a lot of time to think through before you have
• 41:15
  made the determination that they are potentially showing
• 41:18
  behaviours around people pleasing.
• 41:20
  Absolutely, always seeking clinical supervision is, you
• 41:23
  know, the number one kind of best practise for us to get
• 41:28
  feedback from our supervisor before maybe doing some of that
• 41:31
  making meaning or going further in terms of those
• 41:34
  interpretations. But I think that enlarging the
• 41:38
  meaning or kind of going deeper too early can have an impact on
• 41:42
  that relationship potentially with the child.
• 41:46
  When we talk about the first stage of child centre play
• 41:48
  therapy, what are children doing in that first stage?
• 41:51
  They're building safety and trust.
• 41:53
  They're taking their time in their way to build that sense of
• 41:56
  safety and trust so that then they can move to more of that
• 42:02
  deeper meaning and deeper work They start to do in the second
• 42:05
  stage play therapy when they start to test those negative
• 42:08
  aspects of self. So we want to give them that
• 42:11
  space. And I think it goes back to the
• 42:12
  beginning of my conversation in this episode when it and when I
• 42:17
  want to highlight that it's so important that we are working at
• 42:21
  the pace of the child. And yeah, not interpreting the
• 42:26
  play too early because I think that it can certainly have an
• 42:30
  impact in terms of that relationship if we rush it.
• 42:34
  So really taking that time to work with them to let them show
• 42:40
  us in their way is far more effective.
• 42:43
  And it really talks to us not having expectations around how
• 42:48
  many sessions that will take for a child to move through the
• 42:51
  first stage of play therapy, build that sense of safety and
• 42:54
  trust, and then be able to move into the second stage.
• 42:57
  It takes the pressure off us that we don't have to have the
• 43:00
  answers of how quickly that's going to be.
• 43:02
  We are taking our cues from the child child, but I think that we
• 43:07
  don't want to rupture that relationship too early because
• 43:10
  that will just obviously make it more challenging for us to kind
• 43:13
  of come back from if we if we have that.
• 43:16
  If that happens though, that happens, right?
• 43:19
  And so again, we need to be kind to ourselves as practitioners
• 43:23
  learning in this space very much so that if you feel like you've
• 43:28
  had a session where that trust has potentially been impacted,
• 43:32
  there's always the next session. There's always that next
• 43:35
  connection time. And that's the great thing I
• 43:38
  think about working with kids is that oftentimes, not always, but
• 43:43
  sometimes, they have purely forgotten.
• 43:46
  It's been a week in their life. They've had so much happen.
• 43:48
  By the time they come back next week, they're onto a totally
• 43:50
  different topic, which again, is so much about more about our
• 43:54
  stuff as adults, wondering, are they going to be OK with me this
• 43:56
  week? But also that we get this
• 44:00
  opportunity to be truly authentic and valuable,
• 44:03
  valuable, valuable. I think that's the way you say
• 44:06
  it, where we can make mistakes too.
• 44:09
  And I actually think that that's a really, really important part
• 44:13
  of child centre play therapy, if not one of the most, because I
• 44:16
  think children at the end of the day notice when we are
• 44:20
  inauthentic, they will pick up on that.
• 44:23
  They really do. So if we can be our authentic
• 44:27
  selves, take that pressure off yourself to have the answers to
• 44:32
  move kids through their play sessions, you know, at a certain
• 44:35
  expectation of, you know, how many sessions that's going to
• 44:37
  be. When I'm having an initial
• 44:39
  consultation with a parent, I'm absolutely not giving them a
• 44:41
  number. I just can't.
• 44:44
  I, I don't want to set the child up or myself to fail by saying,
• 44:48
  Yep, and they'll just need a couple of sessions and I'm sure
• 44:50
  they're going to move into the second stage.
• 44:51
  Play therapy. Children will show us in their
• 44:53
  way in their time. So certainly noticing and using
• 44:58
  tracking in the beginning of your work helps you to have that
• 45:02
  curiosity, helps you to stay with those tenants so that you
• 45:05
  can help to build that sense of safety and trust before you
• 45:08
  start to do that interpretation. I think having Doctor Bruce
• 45:11
  Lipton's research in the back of your mind, certainly for me has
• 45:14
  been, you know, kind of from my framework practise, pivotal I
• 45:19
  think in how I view children's unconscious processing of their
• 45:25
  experiences and, and certainly their relationships.
• 45:28
  It really did. It was really kind of the
• 45:30
  missing piece for me where I was like, that's why kids do it
• 45:33
  because they don't even realise that they're doing it.
• 45:35
  It's their programme, it's their unconscious understanding.
• 45:38
  So I love, I love that it has helped kind of tie together the
• 45:42
  piece of the puzzle for me and I hope it has for you too, Terry.
• 45:45
  The middle phase when we are obviously going into that second
• 45:48
  stage play therapy, we might then start to do some of that
• 45:53
  gentle enlargement where possible.
• 45:57
  And I think again, kids just move through the different
• 45:59
  stages at such different rates that you are going to know
• 46:02
  individually with that child. But I think that the people
• 46:05
  pleasing is something or we're looking at as a presenting issue
• 46:09
  that we're returning responsibility.
• 46:12
  We're using a steam building statements.
• 46:15
  We are really trying to build some of those basic human
• 46:18
  capacities around independent self direction, self
• 46:21
  responsibility and we are patient with that.
• 46:24
  We are going at their pace because this is something that
• 46:26
  has been established with them over, you know, repetitious
• 46:31
  experiences for years sometimes. And so you're not going to be
• 46:34
  able to change that in a couple of sessions or even 10 or 15
• 46:37
  sessions. This is going to be a journey
• 46:39
  for them to, to relearn a different way of engaging.
• 46:43
  And I think that is kind of at the core of what makes Child
• 46:47
  Centre Play therapy so amazing is that we get to, in real time
• 46:52
  by being our authentic selves, help to rewire children's brains
• 46:57
  to experience a safe relationship with another adult.
• 47:01
  Like how powerful is that? It's huge to be able to do that
• 47:05
  with no like handouts or script or structures to the session or
• 47:10
  psycho education or activities. Like that's why I love it so
• 47:14
  much because it's honouring that the child knows what they need
• 47:18
  to talk about, but it's showing how powerful that relationship
• 47:21
  between us as the therapist and the child can be.
• 47:25
  It's massive. And I think we underestimate
• 47:27
  that. So for anyone listening right
• 47:29
  now who is doubting if they are making a difference in a child's
• 47:32
  life, please don't. That's the short version.
• 47:36
  That's the short version of my motivation because it's almost
• 47:38
  830, you guys. I am getting up to 50 minutes on
• 47:41
  this podcast and it was supposed to be 30.
• 47:43
  Whoops. And we haven't even gotten to
• 47:45
  our second question yet. I think we might have to carry
• 47:47
  this over because we are getting way too long into this episode.
• 47:51
  But to finish Terry's question, I think that the gift of of
• 47:57
  child centre play therapy, there's so many gifts, right?
• 47:59
  But one of those gifts is that we get to be ourselves.
• 48:02
  We get to be authentic. We get to be present in the room
• 48:05
  with a child and we get to hear their story and we get to help
• 48:08
  them heal and to build those skills without us even giving
• 48:13
  one instruction. Like, it's wild because so much
• 48:17
  of what we are trained to do, say in traditional psychology
• 48:20
  studies at university or other, you know, kind of practises tell
• 48:25
  us that we need to have, you know, answers ready.
• 48:28
  We need to have a bit of a plan or a structure or a treatment
• 48:33
  plan or whatever that looks like.
• 48:34
  And it's not the case in child centre play therapy.
• 48:37
  How great is that? And that we can actually be
• 48:40
  effective is even better. So I think, you know, when we're
• 48:44
  looking at certainly supporting the child in this space, when we
• 48:49
  start to do those interpretations to Terry's
• 48:52
  question, I think the guide is always the child's nervous
• 48:55
  system. Is it one good way of thinking
• 48:57
  about it? We've been talking about that a
• 48:58
  bit in other episodes, not a timeline.
• 49:01
  I think that, you know, going at their pace, when they are ready
• 49:05
  for us to do a reflection shows that we have built that sense of
• 49:08
  safety and trust and we can then go deeper.
• 49:11
  And I think that that's really important.
• 49:13
  So reflection always follows a relationship.
• 49:15
  I think that's a nice way of thinking it through.
• 49:18
  I don't know, Oh, I was going to give you an example, yes, of
• 49:21
  when we are actually reflecting those presenting issues back to
• 49:26
  the child. I think that people pleasing is
• 49:29
  very much one of those ones that is a great one to respond with
• 49:32
  in terms of facilitative responses.
• 49:36
  So if I have a child that really wants to know what I think of
• 49:41
  the picture, we have our phrases that we say in child centre play
• 49:46
  therapy that and you really care about what I think about your
• 49:50
  picture. But what matters in here is what
• 49:52
  you think and how you feel. That's their that's a reflection
• 49:57
  back, right, Because we're doing that reflective, facilitative,
• 50:00
  responsive statements back to the child.
• 50:03
  The people pleasing really is about validating their feelings
• 50:07
  and letting them know it's so important to you that you know
• 50:11
  that you understand how I feel about your picture, but in here
• 50:14
  what matters is how you feel because you're the most
• 50:16
  important person in here. That kind of emphasis on their
• 50:20
  feelings, their experiences and building their human capacities
• 50:23
  around self direction, self responsibility is really the
• 50:26
  antidote I think to people pleasing.
• 50:29
  So being able to offer that reflection back I think is so
• 50:32
  important when we've got kids that are using a lot of
• 50:35
  controlling behaviours in the playroom.
• 50:38
  I think this is like a whole episode on its own, to be
• 50:40
  honest, around responses to give.
• 50:43
  But I'll say briefly, I think that for the controlling
• 50:48
  behaviours, it's really about recognising that they are
• 50:52
  struggling with not having control outside of play therapy,
• 50:55
  but they're also wanting to put us in the position of them.
• 50:59
  So there is often so much transference and
• 51:01
  countertransference. From a psychoanalytic
• 51:03
  perspective that comes up where we might feel frustrated or
• 51:07
  annoyed or angry about something that the child is doing where
• 51:12
  they're trying to dominate over us.
• 51:13
  So they might be telling like making a mess and then telling
• 51:16
  us to clean it up. They might be bossing us around
• 51:18
  the room telling us to pick up 50 things and bring it over to
• 51:20
  them. I in the beginning.
• 51:23
  So I'm just going to kind of show my evolution of my practise
• 51:25
  with this in the very beginning. I would certainly follow along
• 51:30
  because I want the child to be in the lead.
• 51:32
  I want them to tell their story in their way in their time.
• 51:34
  What I have learnt in more recent years is really taking
• 51:38
  notice of what's coming up for me.
• 51:40
  Because again, if we lean into our tenants of CCPT around
• 51:43
  congruence, empathy and unconditional positive regard,
• 51:46
  if I'm being bossed around and I feel irritated, I'm not able to
• 51:50
  be empathetic. Congruence with unconditional
• 51:52
  positive regard if I'm irritated.
• 51:54
  So that is certainly things for us to take care of outside of
• 51:58
  play therapy 100%. But I also take it as a very
• 52:02
  helpful marker and indicator for me to put a limit in place
• 52:06
  because I think that when I lose my ability to be present in the
• 52:09
  playroom, I've lost the child. This is just my opinion, you
• 52:12
  guys, just disclaimer, we don't just put it all out there,
• 52:16
  sorry. What I like to do in those
• 52:18
  scenarios when I have a child that's bossing me around and
• 52:21
  telling me what to do and telling me to pick up 50 things
• 52:23
  is I might say, again, returning responsibility and say that's
• 52:25
  something you can do in here because I'm not going to do it.
• 52:29
  I don't say that part, but I gently returned back and say
• 52:32
  it's really important in here that you're in charge, but
• 52:36
  that's something you can do. That's something you can choose
• 52:39
  to do in here. That's something you can decide.
• 52:42
  So that's really sticking to our CCPT protocol with that because
• 52:46
  I don't, I lean into Gary Landreth's tenant with this or
• 52:50
  his his analogy or I guess premise in child and play
• 52:53
  therapy being around facilitating A socially
• 52:56
  acceptable relationship. I don't want to replicate
• 52:59
  maladaptive relationships that exist outside of play therapy.
• 53:03
  So I might put a limit in if I feel like it's something that is
• 53:08
  impacting my ability to be congruent.
• 53:10
  Not because it's about me, but in fact what they're doing is
• 53:13
  telling me about their world. And so once I put that limit in,
• 53:17
  you often then see the emotional expression afterwards.
• 53:20
  And that's what I think is more important.
• 53:21
  So I will then go to the feelings.
• 53:23
  It's not about a power battle, battle with the child where
• 53:27
  they're like, no, you do it basically like you do it and
• 53:30
  we're going back and forth. I'm not doing that.
• 53:32
  I'm very much putting that limit in and then watching for their
• 53:35
  reaction because once their reaction comes into play, then
• 53:38
  my job is to help enlarge an ad meaning.
• 53:41
  So it's so frightening. You are so angry right now at me
• 53:45
  that I won't do the things that you need me to do.
• 53:47
  That's so frustrating for you. So then I'm actually going to a
• 53:52
  deeper meaning. I'm not just going back and
• 53:55
  forth with that. Something you can decide.
• 53:57
  That's something you can do. That's something you can choose.
• 53:59
  I'm, I'm not going in that dance.
• 54:01
  I immediately then want to enlarge in that meeting
• 54:03
  background depot, but I want to make sure that I have that
• 54:05
  relationship first to then do that.
• 54:08
  The silence one is certainly a good one in terms of kids
• 54:13
  presenting that way in the playroom.
• 54:15
  So you're letting me know right now that you just need some time
• 54:18
  and you can let me know when you need me or, or, or you'd like me
• 54:21
  to engage with you. I'm very mindful of the fact
• 54:25
  that silence can often be a control thing as well they are
• 54:31
  using and I had described to me that when children have very
• 54:36
  little decision making out for the pirate.
• 54:37
  My apologies if you're not on the YouTube you wouldn't have
• 54:40
  seen I just scratched the microphone with my acrylic.
• 54:42
  Now apologies everyone, sorry let me get back to my point.
• 54:47
  When we have children that are silent, it is often that they
• 54:50
  have no other decision making other than their verbal
• 54:53
  communication and their bodily functions.
• 54:56
  That is when you have a child that is truly in fight or flight
• 54:59
  where they are just clinging to what is left within their
• 55:02
  control. So if you have a child that
• 55:04
  isn't talking to you or has their back to you, that is them
• 55:08
  trying to gain some of that external like some control back
• 55:12
  within. So I might just say to them,
• 55:13
  you're just letting me know right now.
• 55:15
  You just need some time in here. You know, you can decide what
• 55:20
  that looks like. So sometimes it just feels safer
• 55:23
  to do that. And, and so you just need some
• 55:25
  time and you know, I'll be here when you're ready.
• 55:29
  So I, I very much show and enlarge that meeting once I have
• 55:34
  felt like I have that relationship with them.
• 55:36
  Just to give a caveat, certainly if that was like a first or
• 55:39
  second session where I had a child that had their back to me
• 55:41
  who wasn't talking to me, I'm just watching their non verbal
• 55:44
  cues. We know that 80% of
• 55:46
  communication is non verbal. So there is plenty for me to
• 55:49
  track even if I have a child that has their back to me.
• 55:52
  You're just taking some time to decide when you're ready.
• 55:56
  You just need some time before you want to or you choose to
• 55:59
  play with me. You are over there right now,
• 56:03
  taking your space, taking your time.
• 56:05
  You're playing with that right now and you're going to let me
• 56:08
  know when you're ready. Like I am just following.
• 56:11
  You are just looking at those now.
• 56:13
  You're just taking some time to have a look at that.
• 56:17
  You're over there, you've decided to stay in that part of
• 56:21
  the room. Whatever it is, whatever it is
• 56:23
  that they're doing. I'm tracking for my life, for
• 56:27
  children that are silent with their back to me.
• 56:29
  But it is one of those things we always talk about, right?
• 56:32
  When you start kind of your training journey doing that, our
• 56:36
  own self reflection. Self reflection is always part
• 56:38
  of our practise, right? Whether you're training or not.
• 56:40
  But in the beginning, identifying, I guess, what are
• 56:43
  your touch points? What are the things that may
• 56:46
  activate you that might impact your ability to be congruent?
• 56:49
  A child would get back to me. Not saying a word doesn't bother
• 56:51
  me in the least. You guys really doesn't because
• 56:55
  I'm kind of like 11 years in. I've seen it so many times.
• 56:58
  I'm like, they'll just take a minute, they'll be fine.
• 57:01
  I have a true confidence in that child and their capacity for
• 57:05
  growth. So it doesn't bother me.
• 57:07
  But you know, as a beginning play therapist, sorry to
• 57:10
  actually bring back to the audience that I'm talking to, if
• 57:12
  you are beginning in this phase, it could be very daunting for
• 57:15
  you to have a child that doesn't want to talk.
• 57:18
  From my perspective, in terms of my passion of working with kids,
• 57:22
  they are the kids that I can't wait to see their other side of
• 57:26
  themselves. Because I know this silent
• 57:29
  rejecting kind of version where they've got their back to me and
• 57:31
  they're not talking to me is just a learnt behaviour.
• 57:33
  Not in the sense of like them, you know, it's a maladaptive
• 57:37
  engagement with relationships, but it's actually that they have
• 57:42
  learnt through repetition that it's not safe for me to talk.
• 57:45
  It's not safe for me to be myself.
• 57:47
  Or it's too overwhelming, or I really doubt myself.
• 57:50
  And so I don't know how to begin a conversation or I don't know
• 57:52
  how to relate to others. And so I stay silent and people
• 57:56
  do all the work for me or, you know, I don't have to talk
• 57:58
  because other people will take over.
• 58:00
  And so I can't wait for that inner child of that child to
• 58:04
  come out because I know that truly all children want to play
• 58:08
  and all children want to connect and that they want to have
• 58:11
  themselves seen as good in the eyes of others.
• 58:14
  And so I want to help that child to bring their inner child out.
• 58:19
  So I got very philosophical at the end there.
• 58:21
  And poor Terry, he's probably listening to this going.
• 58:25
  My question was like something totally different.
• 58:29
  I hope that that has somewhat answered your question because I
• 58:32
  just went on a ramble there for about 20 minutes.
• 58:35
  Has that answered your question? Terry, you have to email me and
• 58:38
  tell me because I am dying to know.
• 58:40
  Catherine was the other one. I'm going to give a special
• 58:43
  shout out to my girl Catherine in Newcastle in New South Wales.
• 58:49
  Hey Catherine, she has a question for us as well.
• 58:54
  We have run out of time. I can't even believe I'm saying
• 58:56
  that. So I'm going to hold Catherine
• 58:58
  your question over to next week because your question is just as
• 59:03
  important and I have so much to say about it as well.
• 59:06
  So Catherine was asking more around the post COVID babies.
• 59:10
  So after one of our recent episodes about the COVID
• 59:13
  generation and what the post COVID generation looks like.
• 59:16
  So I will absolutely answer your question next time because I
• 59:20
  have left it way too late at this point.
• 59:23
  I have to end this episode now, but I will carry it over and
• 59:26
  we'll do your question next week, Catherine.
• 59:28
  But that will actually give us time.
• 59:30
  If you are listening this week and you have a question, I'm
• 59:34
  going to send it through. Send it through.
• 59:35
  I would love to do like a whole episode next week on questions
• 59:39
  if we get enough. But if we've just got
• 59:40
  Catherine's, we'll just do Catherine's.
• 59:42
  That's totally fine as well. So we will make sure that we put
• 59:45
  in the notes of this episode our email address, but you can also
• 59:48
  direct message us. I think the the younger
• 59:51
  generation calls it DM. Oh, I got you guys.
• 59:54
  I did like a head nod there that no one except the people on
• 59:57
  YouTube saw. So please feel free to reach out
• 1:00:01
  to us on our social media. We are at the Play Therapy
• 1:00:04
  Circle podcast on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok so you can
• 1:00:08
  find me there. I post daily on my adventures so
• 1:00:12
  anyone that wants to follow along please feel free to
• 1:00:14
  follow. Otherwise, we will put our email
• 1:00:18
  in the notes too because we would love you to email us.
• 1:00:22
  To reach out and send us through your questions.
• 1:00:24
  So a call out, I guess for the next week for anyone who has
• 1:00:28
  questions, please send them through.
• 1:00:31
  I hope that this episode has been helpful and useful for you.
• 1:00:35
  I just loved doing it. I can't believe it's an hour and
• 1:00:38
  I only got through one question. It's wild.
• 1:00:40
  But then also typical for me, right?
• 1:00:42
  I could talk about it all day. So thank you so much for
• 1:00:45
  listening. If you are interested in
• 1:00:47
  connecting with us and our Play Therapy Circle community
• 1:00:50
  community, we have a free Circle subscription.
• 1:00:54
  So we will leave the link in the description of this episode as
• 1:00:58
  well. If you would like to click on it
• 1:01:00
  and join us at the Play Therapy Circle subscription, we have our
• 1:01:06
  free community page, so you can join us there and ask questions
• 1:01:10
  with other CCPT practitioners as well as lots of PD and training
• 1:01:14
  opportunities as well. But thank you so much for
• 1:01:17
  listening. Thank you everyone for being
• 1:01:19
  here. I hope you send through some
• 1:01:21
  questions. I can't wait to hear from all of
• 1:01:25
  you in our community. Thank you so much for supporting
• 1:01:28
  us internationally as well all of our international listeners.
• 1:01:31
  If you would like a special shout out to next week, I'm I'm
• 1:01:34
  happy to do that as well. That would be great.
• 1:01:38
  But thank you. Thank you for your support.
• 1:01:40
  Please look after yourselves and each other this week.
• 1:01:41
  Be kind to yourselves. I've got a massive week coming
• 1:01:45
  up, but I do have a very fun and just kind of relaxing weekend
• 1:01:51
  ahead. So four more days guys until the
• 1:01:53
  weekend and then I'm going to enjoy that.
• 1:01:54
  Thank you so much for listening. This episode is gone for an
• 1:01:56
  hour. Oh my God, I'm going to let you
• 1:01:58
  guys go. Thank you so much for listening.
• 1:02:00
  I'll see you all again next week.
• 1:02:01
  Let's do it again next week. Bye.
• 1:02:05
  Thank you so much for being here for another episode of The Play
• 1:02:09
  Therapy Circle. If anything resonated with you
• 1:02:12
  today, I'd love it if you could follow the podcast, share it
• 1:02:16
  with a colleague, or leave a short review.
• 1:02:18
  It really helps others find our circle.
• 1:02:20
  And if you have a topic or question you'd love me to
• 1:02:23
  explore, I'd love to hear from you.
• 1:02:26
  This space is for you and I want it to feel like a conversation.
• 1:02:31
  Until next time, take care of yourself and remember you belong
• 1:02:35
  here.