Latest / Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers / Let's Talk About: Romance Book Cover Art with Cat of TRC Designs
Transcript
- Caitlin Stryker: Hi. Courtney Richter: Hello. Hi Cat. Cat TRC Designs: Hi. Courtney Richter: Hi everyone, we are so excited to welcome you all into this very special version of our podcast where we are talking to artist Cat Imb, who does the cover art for so many of our favorite series, including most recently where I met her, The Kings of Sin, ⁓ King of Gluttony cover, and all the ones in this series. And the I'm going to God of Sports series? Is that how we say it? God of the Game! I was close. It's basically... Cat TRC Designs: Odds of the game. Courtney Richter: That's there, The Defender, The Striker, and the next one coming out in October, I wanna say. ⁓ And so many more. So I was so fortunate to get to meet Cat at an Ana Huang ⁓ book signing for King of Gluttony. And she is so fantastic and it's so interesting what she does and how she does it. So we wanted to have her on here so we could give you all kind of a behind the scenes of how your favorite covers come to be. So welcome, Cat. Thank you so much for joining us. Cat TRC Designs: Thank you for having me. Courtney Richter: ⁓ Why don't we start with you just telling us a little bit of w- what you do and how it comes to be? Like how does someone decide, obviously they inquire to you, but how did you become ⁓ a cover illustrator? Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ It's- I kind of came about a roundabout way because I was a book blogger in like the late Twenty Teens, ⁓ when I was in college and like I would like read and review books, like get ARCs do all that fun stuff, and then I would like make teasers because I saw other bloggers were making teasers for like books they read with like cool quotes. And I was like, I wanna try and do that and I was terrible at Photoshop. Like absolutely terrible. And I was like, ⁓ man, that is not good and then I got into architecture school. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ wow. Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: And I really wanted to have like nice posters, you know, for like presentations. And I like, I need to get good at Photoshop if I wanna have like nice panels for crits. So I was like, a great way to do that is just like to keep practicing making things for books I love to be able to just like refine my skills. ⁓ So I started doing that and then one day one of my like good friends and authors was like, Hey, like I need a cover do you think you would wanna try? And I like, Well, why not? Like I'm not Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Gosh. Cat TRC Designs: like super good at Photoshop, but we'll give it a go. and it actually worked out quite well. It took me so long. Like there was probably fifty versions of the cover because I kept like trying to like refine little things and I was like, well that that doesn't look right. ⁓ But it was it was really fun. And then eventually like a couple months later, I was like, maybe I should try like make pre made's and see like how that goes. So I met the Facebook group and I started like putting covers out there. I was like whoever wants it, you can buy it. Caitlin Stryker: Right. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ And like I started getting traction with like my first clients and then like two years later is when it really like popped off. I started like I got inquired by Sav R Miller, Emily McIntyre, HG Carlton, like that all happened within a span of three months and that just really... Yeah. So it just really ⁓ solidified kind of like, Hey, I'm actually not bad at this. Like maybe I can get a career out of this. Courtney Richter: ⁓ wow. Caitlin Stryker: Wow. Okay, cut. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: I love how you said a couple of times as you were saying that you're like, yeah, and I was just really bad at Photoshop, but I just kept working on it. then I was like, gosh, I'm so bad. This is taking me so long. What I love about that is you enjoyed it so much that you kept going, even though you weren't great. Like you didn't let lack of immediate perfection stop you. And I think that's such a barrier for so many of us, particularly women. Cat TRC Designs: Mm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: I don't know why we do this to ourselves. We're like, if it's not perfect or if I got something sort of wrong. And then we like, we almost like panic. I know I do, know, ⁓ I like, right? ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ But you kept, but you kept at it. like, ⁓ now we're speaking with you because you design these incredible covers. And I mean, I know they like, ⁓ don't judge a book by its cover, but still covers are Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. I'm also a perfectionist, so like it was really hard. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: like half the reason you pick up a book in a bookstore. Come on, we all know it. Courtney Richter: Yes. It's a big part of it. And I see it in the bookstores that I work at like daily. The book cover makes such a difference. And yours pop. You just have this eye for it that I'm not shocked that everyone, once they saw them, were like within three months, yes, yes, yes, please, please, please, please, please, because there's something about the crispness of your images that in a sea of a million book covers where they live, they do pop out. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah, mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ thank you. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Mm-hmm Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: It's hard to like name, but I think it just must be your like innate instincts because they really do stand on their own. And so and after meeting you, I started going through the shelves and find like, ⁓ which ones are Cat's? Which ones like going through at a store? And I could actually pretty much identify them without knowing and then double checking. ⁓ Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. love that because I can tell my friends who are cover designers, like ⁓ I know which are theirs without them telling me. Because like we all have this gradation ⁓ of the type contrasts we like, the types of colors we like, and texture. So like when you put all those together, like we might not have a distinct style per se, because we design across genres and subgenres. So you need to be able to ⁓ be versatile in way. ⁓ But the way approach like Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ wow. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yes. Cat TRC Designs: lighting and again like contrast and color and texture is so innate to like how we approach our covers and like how we build them in Photoshop that like you start to see it a bit everywhere. Like the Kings of Sin, like if you look at King of Wrath and then The Defender or like The Keeper, they're very different covers. Like one is like an object and the other one is more like a, a vector kind of build. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: that doesn't have like a hero object. The whole cover is like an object. It's like a ticket. But the textures in it, like you can see there's layer texture in it. And there's like some filigree in it. And there's like these other like contrasting colors that like make it so that they look like they go together even though they're completely different. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: And is that from... So when you got the ⁓ Gods of I'm gonna say sport again and it's incorrect. Game, Gods of the Game, is that correct? ⁓ After working on The Kings of Sin, is did you pitch first or did Ana kind of give you like, or her team, like this is my feel for it or idea? Or is it because you work in a relationship and you were like, This is what I see, and then you guys kind of build from there? Like how does it work with each new series? Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: There we go. Cat TRC Designs: So the sh- I would say the first book in the series is always the hardest. ⁓ and The Striker was especially hard. Like we worked on that for nine months because... Yeah. It was, it was hard because it's such a departure from standard billionaire romance where it's all about opulence and kind of like rich tones and like gilding. ⁓ And you want to like create that vibe, but in sports romance, Caitlin Stryker: Mm. ⁓ wow! Courtney Richter: ⁓ wow. Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: if you look at a shelf right now, you see a lot of illustrated covers, a lot of like modern crisp lines, which are completely the antithesis of what Kings of Sin was. So trying to find the balance to weave in Ana's brand into a sports romance cover. And sh- she was absolutely adamant, like no illustrated characters on it. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm Courtney Richter: It would be so weird to see an illustrated character on an Ana Huang book. ⁓ just wouldn't- It would stand out like a sore thumb. You'd be like, what is that? Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ As as love the illustrated characters, you know, on books, but like, yes, on an Ana Huang book, I'd be like, wait a minute. ⁓ Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: See, so like she has like an established brand and I was trying to see, well, do we go like a Twisted route which is a lot more simple and just title focused, or do we go Kings of Sin, which had like an object, and we kind of wanted to ⁓ like in between both. Like we wanted it to be title focused, but still have a lot of interest in the background, ⁓ and something that could be adapted for all three books in the series. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Right, so that they're cohesive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which makes sense why the first one in a series is always the hardest, because you're establishing the tone and brand of that series. Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: So mm-hmm mm. So yeah it Courtney Richter: Well Cat TRC Designs: And you're gonna be with it for at least a couple of years. So you wanna make sure you hit the nail on the head, you're starting off strong, get those readers into that series, into that new subgenre to be able to carry through. ⁓ it's a lot of pressure, but it's fun. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: you've done it so well. Like you ⁓ interesting because I sorry, Cait, I don't mean to interrupt your question that you're going on it. I was curious, is it now- because now that each cover kind of gets like Barnes Noble exclusive or Indigo exclusive, or depending on the country or the place, is that something that you take into consideration with your first design, or is it something you kind of adapt into after you find out what the agreements have been that are being made? Like with say, you know, Kings of Gluttony, the black. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: versus the white. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah, so because ⁓ Kings of Sin was originally indie published, we just had the white cover. So it was just gonna be the white ones. ⁓ and then that was the case for King of Wrath and King of Pride. And I think it got picked up right before Pride was gonna release. So we did the whole indie release with Pride, and then after that it got moved into the traditional publishers' hands. ⁓ And that's when they came up with wanting exclusives for Barnes and Noble and Indigo. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: And then we have to come up with ways to create those different color variants. But it is good to know beforehand so that you can build your files in a way that it's easier to make them black. Because going from black to white or white to black base is a lot of editing. Because your shadows are different, your contrasts are different. Is it gonna clash? Is the white too white? Do you have to tone down the white? ⁓ Sometimes like you, you can blend things in a way that Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Courtney Richter: Right. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: Like if it's white on white, it doesn't look too bad. Like it looks good. But then as soon as you put it on a black base, like it's tragic. Like those feathers... Caitlin Stryker: Yeah Courtney Richter: This one, like this envelope being kind of an off white ⁓ must have a tricky one to be able to play on both covers. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. It actually wasn't too bad because of like the smoldering effect. Like it helps bridge that gap. But let's say King of Pride isolating those feathers, like in all those fine details, they were on a white base. So trying to get all of that white out so that it would work on the black base was very tedious. But I'm glad it turned out okay. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney Richter: Mm. Caitlin Stryker: Ha ha! Courtney Richter: did. beautiful. The purple, but like it pops on the black as much as it was in the original design. It does pop when you see it. That and the green of King of Envy, like it's almost shocking when you see it. It pops so hard against the black. But I get why it was white. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. And yeah. Mm-hmm. And the feathers on Pride are actually darker on the Indigo version than on the white version 'cause they were too bright off the black, so I had to darken them. So it's just like Yeah. Courtney Richter: I hadn't even noticed that. Like it blends so well together that I haven't been able to see because we always have them like side by side and I haven't noticed but that makes sense that you would have to like keep Caitlin Stryker: you Cat TRC Designs: Mm. saying black, but the covers are not actually black. They're just very dark colors. Courtney Richter: Yes, I know. Caitlin Stryker: It's funny because, well, you're sort of speaking, you're saying like black or white, but then you're really speaking to like the different gradations in color, right? And the tones and everything, which are so tricky. I have always found them very tricky to pick up on. Like I can feel it and see it with my eye. But then if someone is holding up, say like a bunch of different options of whites for what color they want to paint their wall, I'm like, Cat TRC Designs: Yeah, yeah, the tones. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Pick one. Whereas my mom is like, she's the type of person who's like, ⁓ Oh my God, they're all completely different. We should probably just, you know, and I'm ⁓ they're all white. It's a skill. It's something that you have an eye for or you don't. ⁓ I ⁓ where I was coming at, this leads me back to the question that I was sort of thinking of there. Courtney Richter: Yeah. It is. Caitlin Stryker: You said you went to architecture school. So which is, again, that's another like very kind of like, it's very precise, right? And then you fell into this sort of like your passion like pulled you along this way. But do you find that there are kind of like overlaps in the two or not? Cat TRC Designs: Yes. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: I think there are. I think the way like we think of like architecture, like designing in a 3D space. So designing with light and shadow and materials. And I think that actually impacts how I design book covers because I always start with a base and then I like layer on top of it. And I love to layer textures. ⁓ And like this is why I love doing special editions so much, like the Twisted collector's editions. I was like, I really want these to be in cloth. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: I want that tactile experience. I would love if they were like debossed. I love the foil off that texture. So whenever like I work on special editions, like I love playing with the way things are foiled, like not just do a title. Like what else can we foil to make it interesting? So there's this one that I did with Marni Mann where we did a raised gold foil on a zipper. And like because I outlined all of the parts of the zipper, it felt like a zipper. Courtney Richter: Mm. Caitlin Stryker: Hmm, yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: when it was printed. So like those are like really fun ways to to play with that. So that's why I love doing special editions. Courtney Richter: Wow. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. It's like getting into a sandbox again. It's just like creating and making, and what can you do with it? That's awesome. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: And you said you started, you were book blogging, which is so fun, because it's kind of, it's a lot like what we're doing. Like we're at the podcast, right? And like you and you're, and you're reading books and reviewing them and like speaking to authors and all of these other things. Um, and then you just started to be like, Oh, I want to make stuff that goes along with it. Um, I probably every time now you've got to, you've got to read the book to have the idea, like this sense of like, Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: what it is and build your design from there? Is that what you do or how do you come up? How do you approach creating the cover? Cat TRC Designs: a plot twist. Most of the time the book isn't written by the time I come in. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ Oh my Courtney Richter: Right. Cat TRC Designs: So I never read the book before. One Caitlin Stryker: like tonal suggestions, ideas, like a brand book thing from the author and the publisher or whatever then? Courtney Richter: ⁓ wow. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah, yeah. So even if the book is written, I don't like to read it because then I my vision gets clouded by too many details that aren't important. ⁓ So what I ask the author or the publisher to send is what is the genre, the subgenre, what are the tropes? What are some important symbols in a story and why? Because sometimes they might say something and they give a reason Caitlin Stryker: Mm. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Hmm. Right. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Okay. Cat TRC Designs: But then that might spark something in my head, like, ⁓ but what if we did this instead? Or like, how can I bring these elements together to try and tell the story without being too revealing ⁓ of what's gonna happen? So yeah, sometimes authors have a very clear vision and then sometimes they don't, and then that's when ⁓ I come in and like try and brainstorm with them. But I do love having creative liberty. I don't like too rigid of a brief. If it is Caitlin Stryker: Mm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Okay. Cat TRC Designs: to the letter, like I want this here and I want that there. Like I and I don't have room to be creative. It's just very hard for me and I don't get attached to the project as much. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Courtney Richter: How long is your process generally? From like when they say like, hey, here's the book. How long is it? Or this is what it is? And is it like, do you make your pitch and other designers make their pitch and they decide? Or is it kind of just like they know your style and they're like, Hey, would you make one for this? Like how does it kind of work in terms of them? Cat TRC Designs: It depends on the publisher. It depends on the project. ⁓ When it's indie authors, it they typically come to one designer they want, and then we worked one on one on something. With publishers, it can be either that way if the art director really likes like a certain designer style, or if they're in a rush for something, ⁓ they will commission three different artists or however many and then they will each produce Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm. Cat TRC Designs: X amount of options and then they will test all of those covers or show them all off to their team and they'll pick one. ⁓ So it can be competitive, but most of the time it isn't. But I have been in situations where it was. Courtney Richter: ⁓ what? Caitlin Stryker: Right. Courtney Richter: But is it like do you know most of the other designers like in your kind of genre? Do you meet them at book conventions? ⁓ Oh, you have no idea. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ Like I know a lot of cover designers, but like let's say if it's a publisher being like, hey, we're hiring like XYZ amount of designers, like I don't know who else is working on it. Yes. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Like for us because we're also actors, it's like auditioning. Like half the time Cait and I will be like, ⁓ yeah, we're both reading for that. Cool. We've got it. Yeah. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny, Which is funny because then we're like, do they, Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: yes. ⁓ it's both of us, we're like, they're very clearly fishing still. Yeah. We'll be Hey, can you read me with this? I'm like, Yes, I'm doing that too. Let's both read for each other. Caitlin Stryker: And in that case we're like let's just help one another, because they don't know what they want. ⁓ not in direct competition with each other. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I do think it's important for like designers to have designer friends. to be able to like bounce ideas off, like when we get stuck, or if we're having difficulty trying to like grasp a certain aspect of how to design something, or just also to like be able to talk about the industry in a way that like someone else knows about. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: 'Cause like not a lot of people know how it is behind the scenes or like the process or like how to interact with publishers and authors and audiobook companies. ⁓ So it's I think it's really important to have like that support system in, in the background. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Yeah. And how did you connect with most designers? Is it just from following each other or like how did you end up meeting most of your support group of other fellow designers? Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah, just essentially like ⁓ following each other. But like one of my best designer friends, ⁓ Cass at Opulent Designs, she does Rina Kent's covers. We actually met... Yeah, we actually met in the community before we both started designing and then we kind of started designing at the same time, which is like completely kismet. ⁓ And then we kinda also both like grew in parallel. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. ⁓ I love those. Caitlin Stryker: Okay. Courtney Richter: Hmm? Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: Which is really fun. So like now we both like work with similar publishers, ⁓ similar like authors, like sometimes we share clients, which is really fun. So like we both work with HD Carlton. ⁓ And then... Yeah. Or like if they don't have time for something, they'll be like, Hey, go to Cat, and or if I don't have time for something, I'll be like, Hey, go to Cass. Because like we have similar styles, but we're still different. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. That's fun. Courtney Richter: Yeah. ⁓ wow. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: It's similar, but it's d- yeah. I would say this isn't the right word, but you're ⁓ more edged, I would say, your designs. Like literally like lines, cleaner edges, I would say, than hers, which are more like as a whole darker, but you do both cover the same kind of genre. Yeah, you get a feel from both of you that is similar. That's true. The vibe Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: pulls you in in a similar way, but I would definitely be able to be like, I think that's Cat, that's Cass. If I was looking at I'm gonna like I'm gonna look at Carlton's today and figure out which one's which without knowing. For sure. I will, I will, I will. Because I- It will be a fun little game for myself at work. I will. I'll, I'll make it a social quiz which one and we can ⁓ But that's so fun. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Right. Yeah Cat TRC Designs: You let me know how that works out. Caitlin Stryker: Right? ⁓ could do it, do it, like record a little bit of it, put it on our socials. That'd be actually really fun. Cat TRC Designs: Perfect. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: And when we talked, you said you just got back from two cons, correct? One was in Texas. And where was the other one? Amazing. Cat TRC Designs: I to Imaginarium which is like a fantasy ⁓ sci fi paranormal con. ⁓ And then ⁓ the other one was in Austin and it City Fling. So more contemporary, but there was also like ⁓ some fantasy authors there, which was really fun. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ fun. Courtney Richter: ⁓ so fun. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Were you just like were you set up to like people coming and meeting you or were you just attending? Like what were you doing? Cat TRC Designs: So for Imaginarium I was supposed to be just an attendant. Like a- attendee, I know how to speak English. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's okay. Courtney Richter: It's early. It's early. Cat TRC Designs: But I was there with three of my friends and one of them was an assistant to ⁓ Jeanette and Alexis, like Rose and Ruin. They wrote Blood and Betrayals, ⁓ their book just got picked up by Simon Maverick. It's about to be re-released in a few days. ⁓ And they were slammed. So we me and my other friends ended up helping them. So we assisted the entire weekend. ⁓ Which was really fun. And ⁓ Courtney Richter: Yes. Amazing. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ my gosh. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Awesome. Cat TRC Designs: At Aust- in Austin, I was also assisting one of my best friends, Madison Fox. She works in publishing, but she's also an indie author. So it was the first time it was her first con and then I was there to help her out and it was super fun. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: That is so fun. Courtney Richter: ⁓ And you just pulled. It's similar. So Cait, Cat was just there to like see Ana at the signing and hang out with her again as her friend. And then I just kind of pulled them aside and I was like, ⁓ you know, the designer is here? And they're like, what? And they all got so excited. And then the next thing you turn around and Cat is like a lineup around the corner of everyone going from like Ana to come over to her table to get her to sign their books. Because it's not very often you get that. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. No. Courtney Richter: And I think even at these cons, if they like promoted that, like, ⁓ cover design with yours, you would have also had a million people coming up to you at the cons to also talk to you and get you to sign it because it's really cool. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ yeah. Caitlin Stryker: love book covers. We love to display them on our shelves. We love to, you know, we love to just walk into bookstores and like be surrounded ⁓ by them. It's not just what's in between the cover, the pages and the stories and that energy and that is part of it. But it is like the covers. ⁓ Oh gosh. Okay. So then which makes me think, how do you feel about people organizing their books? Like by color ⁓ or by what is what's your thought on that? Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ I think series should stay together. Caitlin Stryker: Yup. Courtney Richter: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ But I'm very chaotic in the way that like I do my shelves. So first it's like by vibe. And then like and I keep the series together. And then like within the vibe, it's kind of by like what looks good next to each other. So like I have this shelf in my hallway, and it's like all of my covers that I've done on them. ⁓ And it's just like there's the little Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Mmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Okay. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm. Cat TRC Designs: like dark fantasy area and like they're mostly dark covers because like that's what the genre is so like they go together. Then I have like my Giana Darling shelf. And then I have like my paranormal fantasy like ones that are like brighter colors and ⁓ there's obviously a huge Ana section because I have all the editions. ⁓ So it is like really fun to just like I go by gut instinct. I'm like ⁓ this should go here and like this should go there. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. I'm like you. I'm not a rainbow. I don't like to do my books by rainbow. Exactly. Exactly. For me, they, cause then you can't like read them, you know? So I, and also yes, series have to stay together because then I'm also the type of person who's like, oh, you should read this. I'm like, just take the first one. And when you bring that one back. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: How do you find anything? Courtney Richter: Well. I'm just not organized enough. Caitlin Stryker: I'll give you the second, you know, like that kind of ⁓ If they're not in order, like you're never gonna ⁓ them. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Courtney Richter: ⁓ Cat TRC Designs: You're like, book one is here and then wait, where's, where's book two? Caitlin Stryker: Oh it was blue. It's over here. Like, no. ⁓ And ⁓ and I do like to like, if I have the time, I do like to be like, okay, this is kind of like this section. And this is kind of this section. ⁓ And I start ⁓ and ⁓ Heights a big thing. ⁓ Yeah, height a big thing. Courtney Richter: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ also heights. Heights are important. Courtney Richter: Heights height's a big thing. It should go left or right in height, by the way. That's the Cat TRC Designs: I will flip some to the side if like they are not the same height. Like I'll make a stack to end up at the same height. Caitlin Stryker: I love a side stack. I love that. And then I love to design it, and then you ⁓ little trinkets on your bookshelf and it becomes a whole thing. ⁓ yeah, I'm not a color. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Cat TRC Designs: I have I don't have room for trinkets. Courtney Richter: Yeah. No, it's fair. Like it's yeah. This like this becomes a mess because I have to do it to like who we're having on or going and I haven't gone to fix it and my kids mess it up. But I have like my dream bookshelf in my head at all times that one day I will get to create in my room. And that's what it'll be. It'll be height, all the stacks, all the trinkets, like it'll always a series together because you know, I'm not a psychopath. It has to be together. Cat TRC Designs: My shelves are double stacked. There is no room. Caitlin Stryker: Whoa, ⁓ I can't double stack. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: The hardest thing for me to break will be alphabetical order because obviously working in a bookstore forever, that's also like ingrained in my being is to go alphabetical and height left to right. But that's okay. And I do like hardcover, softcover. You like you know the descending. But I, I can't wait till one day when my children don't have access to my books, that I can really make it beautiful the way I want. That's my like that'll be how I console myself for my empty nest or the loss of children will be my book, my book wall. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ my gosh, right. Cat TRC Designs: No. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ha! Everything will be so pretty and organized. Yes. Yes. Cat TRC Designs: The rooms will become bookshelves, like libraries. Courtney Richter: Basically. Yes, it's just one big library will be my house as I'm doing it. But how has the sprayed edge phenomenon that has taken off the last couple of years? How has that affected you as a cover? Does that come into it now? Are they asking you to design the sprayed edges or is it separate? How does that work for you? Caitlin Stryker: Yes, absolutely. Mmm. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ When I work with authors, I always do them with the cover design. ⁓ With publishers, I did the ones for ⁓ Tessa Hale's series, so Crown of Crimson and Crows. So I designed those edges because I wanted them to be a specific way. Sometimes they will not ask me to do them. ⁓ Like let's say they publish a book and then eventually they're like, ⁓ this is doing really well. Let's add a sprayed edge edition. They might not come back to me for that. Courtney Richter: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ But if I know beforehand, I do like to say like I want to do the edges just because of like continuity and like the design intent and sometimes I like to do like ⁓ contrasting colors. So like on the Hooked special editions for Emily McIntyre, like we went navy blue case and then I wanted to do red edges to like tie in both colours from the original cover. So like that's the kind of like thought process, ⁓ yes. Courtney Richter: Okay. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm. Which that series really does pop. It really like stand it's, it's sometimes I hate when you have like stand them together because you're like, no, but we need to see the color like you need to see you have to go like every other one now. ⁓ But how was that how that been watching from your side? Because we've kind of in the book store, they're like we've seen the sprayed edge really take off over the last couple of years. But like w- how did that feel or what was that like from your side of the table? Like did you see it coming? Was it a surprise? Did it just kinda like happen overnight? Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I had worked special editions for a couple of years before then, ⁓ with some book boxes and like they always do sprayed edges and papers, foiling. ⁓ So that, when that started coming into the trad publishing, like I wasn't too surprised. ⁓ But when it was every kind of like front list title with yet a sprayed edge, I was like, ⁓ that's that's interesting. That's a lot of that's a lot of edges. ⁓ Which it can be fun. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ if they're thought out really like well and they match the cover, it's not just a sprayed edge for the sake of a sprayed edge. I do, I do like a salt a gilded edge. I think gilded edges are underrated. I think if you get Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: I love gilded edges. I love gilded edges so much. I always have ever since I was little. It's like such an old fashioned thing. And they're so cool. Courtney Richter: They there's not many. There's not many gilded edges. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ love working on like... Like I do special editions, some of my favorite things to do are like vintage Victorian ⁓ style which is why like I was pushing the cloth on the Twisted collector's editions. I was like, let's go really like the opposite of the tr the trade paperback. So the trade paperbacks are like pasteli colors. ⁓ And then I wanted to go ⁓ a more vibrant and like jewel toned colors. I know Ana really loves jewel tone colors as well. Caitlin Stryker: Hmm Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Right. But you did. Yeah. Yes. Cat TRC Designs: So that was like the inspiration, like how luxe can we make this? And then, yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: When I saw the new Twisted covers rec- I think it was only like last week or something that I actually like saw them all in their beautiful glory. I realized like, ⁓ these fit with the King of Sin. Like these go. There's like they're not the same because they are like an elevated version. But you did. You took this series that people that don't know Ana Huang or teens, sometimes they'll be like, ⁓ this is like a a trope like smut book or this. And you elevate it to what I think the series actually deserves to be because it's so good. So King of- And these covers I feel like I'm like Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: ⁓ now this series is getting like the flowers it deserves. It's getting this like special treatment that you did so beautifully. And it really elevates it. So I... Bravo. You did a great job. I really and I love the feel of it. When you're saying texture, I'm like, yes, because I picked it up right away. I wanted to feel the like fabric on my fingers when I saw it. It it pulls you to it. So great job. I was very excited when I saw that. Great pop. Caitlin Stryker: Right. Cat TRC Designs: Thank you. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm, yeah. Yeah. Outside of book jacket, like the cover, ⁓ so then, know, like when you take that off of a book and then it's the hardcover, do you design that part as well, like when there's a little bit of an embossed say on it or anything, is that? ⁓ Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: When it's indie, yes. When it's traditional publishers, they will typically typically do that in house. if they do decide to do a hardcover. Because hardcovers are not standard in romance. They more are in fantasy for like first print runs. So let's say like the Sav R Miller ones, I did the dust jackets for the Monsters and Muses, but then Caitlin Stryker: Okay. Courtney Richter: Hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm, okay. Courtney Richter: Right. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: the underside, it was they just put the title on the spine. ⁓ So they just do that in house. I do wish if like they decide to do a hardcover that way, like I would love to be able to design it a little bit more. ⁓ But I think it d- also depends like how much money they want to spend on a part that's hidden essentially. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That does make sense. Courtney Richter: What was your first book that drew you into the romance ⁓ genre when you were back being a book bl- blogger? Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ Okay, so I'm gonna say City of Bones back when I was like 13. I love that series so much. I have reread that book at least seven times. My paperback is battered, it's peeling, it's delaminating like- But it's just so good. And I'm in the minority, but I am a sucker for love triangle. Courtney Richter: Ooh, yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ Cat TRC Designs: because it's of the anime I grew up with and in the early 2000s it was love triangles everywhere, love pentagons, whatever you wanna call it. It was messy, it was ⁓ so good. ⁓ Courtney Richter: ⁓ you are in the you are in the minority. Yes, it was. Twilight is so Caitlin Stryker: So good. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ So that really got me into that. And then I was reading a lot of like now we call it romantasy, but like fantasy with like romance in it. ⁓ And then eventually got into contemporary romance, got back into paranormal after that. Like it just kinda like snowballed and it never ended kind of thing. And now I read romance manga, which is really fun. So yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. ⁓ Courtney Richter: gone there yet. I've heard- but I've been like told a few suggestions. But what what would be like a romance manga you su- you would suggest? Cat TRC Designs: I love Yonah of the Dawn. It is a like romantasy kind of ⁓ series is completed. It just finished in December. And it's Princess Bodyguard set in like imperial times, ⁓ in like a fictional kind of ⁓ realm. And there's like a prophecy, there's dragons, there's political intrigue, there's like ⁓ Courtney Richter: Okay. ⁓ I love a completed series. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Cat TRC Designs: Political coups. It's so good. It's so good. It's like very layered as a story. The character development is amazing. And it's like one of my favorites. And when it finished I cried because I was like, it's done. Caitlin Stryker: fun. Courtney Richter: Okay. I love books that do that. Caitlin Stryker: Right? Cat TRC Designs: But, we are season two is in production aft- ten years after season one was released, so hopefully we will get everything animated. We are hoping. Courtney Richter: Yeah. So it's it's out there on a show too. Wow. Okay, well I'll have to check that up when I get through because I've avoided manga for a very long time, mostly just because I'm so busy with romantasy and romance. ⁓ But maybe a romance manga I can get into and build ⁓ and expanding it. I'll try, I'll start with that one. I'll take it aside. ⁓ I a hundred percent. I won't. I won't. ⁓ Only I'll only say love. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: And ⁓ You'll have to let me know. But don't tell me if you hate it. I'll get sad. Caitlin Stryker: Right? I know. I am like you, Court. There's been quite a few people who are like, yeah, you've got to get into these books, like these graphic novels. And I'm like, right. And it's another form. It's another genre. Right? And so maybe if there's romance ones, then there's like a correlation with what we're doing because we are reading so many. ⁓ And it's fun staying like in genre. But it also is really interesting. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: I just love that that's now more of a mainstream thing as well. I feel like reading has become so democratized. We have audio books now and we've got the graphic novels taking off and all of the sub genres, even with romance and romance and everything and paranormal and people are kind of paying more attention to all of these other areas. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: and genres of reading that, you know, used to just, people used to really only talk about like contemporary literary fiction, classics, and nonfiction and self-help books, right? Like that was like, and now it's kind of like everything. And I think more people are reading as a result, you know, because there's more, there are more, more ways in, more ways to be like, I really like that. And it's like, yeah, if you're reading graphic novels, you're reading. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: Mm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: If you're listening to audio books, you're reading. It all tracks. It all counts. And I think that's really cool. Then I also think it's interesting that our book cover designer is reading manga, graphic novels, because they're so, it's so visual. Courtney Richter: Yes. Yes, of course. Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ And I also think because they're so short, like each volume like will take me like forty-five minutes to an hour to read. Like I don't I'm so busy that I don't have like much time to sit down with like a six hundred page fantasy book and like really get into it that like being able to just pick up something and know like I can read this tonight and then feel satisfied and like ⁓ that gratification, like I read something ⁓ really fun. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: I think like also the storytelling through manga is so different than like just ⁓ like way Western books are written. So like the storylines are different, it's serialized, it's like the ebbs and flows of a story are slightly different. ⁓ So really interesting. I l, I just love all of ⁓ that of it. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah, a hundred percent. It's- That's why I even with younger kids to get into graphic novels. Like so often I'll run into parents that'll be like, ⁓ but they're serious, or like I want them to read a book. And I'm like, if a graphic novel is reading, like if y they will sit there quietly and read in their head, yes, they're having images, but like it's getting them in the motion, it's getting them in the habit, it's getting them that feeling of like just reading quietly before bed or taking a moment to themselves to like dive into a world that's not visually just like firing, firing, firing. They're like following their own pace with it. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: And I think it's so important undervalued as you're saying, because you still get that reader high after it and that same like sense of accomplishment of like, Okay, I had this time for myself. Caitlin Stryker: You do. Yes. And for kids, it actually one of my ⁓ we had I always volunteered the book fair at school, right? Because my favorite time of the year is book fair season ever since I was a kid in elementary school. ⁓ And we had this woman in who was because we usually use an independent bookstore. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: at our school instead of Scholastic. And she came in and we were using them as our book fair. And we were talking about the graphic novels and everything. She was like, actually, she was also a mom and she worked in a bookstore. And she was like, I've learned that psychologically, it really helps bridge the gap from when kids are reading picture books to when they're reading chapter books. There's kind of an age gap there. And it has to do with the way our brains process words and create images. And we all develop that at a different time in that Cat TRC Designs: Mm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: age range, you know, I guess is somewhere between like 7 to 7 to 12 kind of thing and and graphic novels help to bridge the gap because there is a time period where kids are reading things on the page but they're not actually able to necessarily their brain isn't forming the image for them. Like it hasn't that that cognitive development hasn't happened yet and that's where we lose a lot of readers in that Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: age gap range of elementary school. So the graphic novel has helped retain young readers through until when they can actually sustain reading a full chapter book, ⁓ which I think is really cool. So the parents who are like, no, I want them reading this other thing. It's like, careful, because you might take someone who is going to be a reader for life and force them to read something they're not ready for or that their brain isn't seeing the way that yours is. And then they stop reading. Right. And like, Cat TRC Designs: That's really interesting. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: That's the real shame. It's like every way that we can get people into books from gorgeous covers to graphic novels, to fun stories, to like what stories pull you in, right? Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Courtney Richter: But that is true even for you, Cat. Like it's as Cait was saying earlier, like the cover of a book stays with you. So when I think of my favorite books and the vibe, like I am always going to be picturing that cover. ⁓ like it's always is just there. And so you are literally making this piece of artwork that is ⁓ in someone's subconscious for years and years, if not ever, which is bit it's amazing. And so congratulations and that's so great. I'm so glad. Caitlin Stryker: Hmm. Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: Thank you, I never thought of it that way. Courtney Richter: Yes. It's like I will never not think like if I ever think of King of Pride or King of En- like the image pops in my head immediately. I'm not like what book was that? Like it just goes instantly together and that's always going to be part of my psyche. So thank you for that. Because you've given these gorgeous images. Yes. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ think Court trends. Cat, have you noticed any like there's always a kind of like trends with book covers? Can you speak to that just a little bit before we before we hop off here? ⁓ I'm curious. Courtney Richter: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Okay, so what coming from the indie space and then moving into dabbling with the trad space, like the traditional publishing space, I've noticed, especially like since traditional publishers have picked up successful indie authors and giving them more distribution through bookstores, because they take them like they have, they have a book that they know sells well with a certain cover. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: They will bring that cover in. And that book cover was made by indie artists in the indie space for the indie readers. So it doesn't have all of those preconceived traditional publishing thoughts behind it, right? Like it's and I think that transition from bringing those indie covers into the trad space into bookstores has actually shifted how publishers think of covers. Because before then, you would think it would always be. Caitlin Stryker: Mm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Okay. Cat TRC Designs: Your title needs to be huge. It has to be super legible, which it always has to be, but it was often like a blocky font with one singular image. ⁓ And then the author name at the bottom or at the top centered. And I think bringing in those indie covers that are a lot more designed than the traditional publisher covers has actually shifted how ⁓ the tr Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm. Caitlin Stryker: Hmm. Cat TRC Designs: design space of the publishing industry works and they all now they'll hire a lot more freelancers than they used to to try and like create those those covers. So like I'm just thinking like you know there's the Colleen Hoover covers are like very traditionally published style. And then you look at covers that came from indie. So like Rena's, Ana's, Emily McIntyre's, they're kind of genre bendy. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Right. Cat TRC Designs: the- that scares publishers, but because they worked so well in the indie space, like they kept them, and then like that created new trends in the publishing industry. ⁓ And then I also think like the indie space is like the avant garde of what's coming to publishing. So like now we see a lot more of like the classic book cover. Caitlin Stryker: cool. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: like for hardcovers. So like you see them in the Twisted Collector's editions, you see them in the Emily McIntyre ones and the Lauren Asher hardcovers. ⁓ Even the ones ooh... There's another book from Lauren something. There's like the broken lollipops on it. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Oh yes, yes, yes. I do. I can't think of her last name right now, but I know exactly which one you mean. Yes. Cat TRC Designs: That's kind of like coming up, especially like, ~ like the Elle Kennedy special edition collectors editions that are coming out. Like you see that kind of style coming in and that all came from the indie space. So I think like that influx of indie into the publishing industry, like kind of refreshed it a little bit and gave it like pushed it into new directions. And that also brought in a lot of younger people into the bookstores. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Ahahaha. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: And I think they're thinking more about what do young people like instead of being like palette ⁓ like trying to please everyone, like from every age range. ⁓ So I think yeah. I don't know if that came out ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Great. Courtney Richter: Yeah. No, it totally makes sense. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ it did, no, that was so interesting. Thank you. Because you see it. Courtney Richter: of people now using social media to show off their bookshelves and show off the beautiful bookcase that was always happening. There were always people that loved ⁓ s you know, as we talked about, setting their cases a certain way or the bookshelves. ⁓ But now you get to share it and you instant feedback and going, which is the other thing that I think took a little bit for publishing to catch on to, but they're also chasing and trying to figure out and using the indie world to guide them is the best thing they could do because the indie world has already known this and always been working Caitlin Stryker: Hmm. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: in this way, I feel like, compared to traditional publishing. And now they're catching up. Cat TRC Designs: Indie publishing is very like instant in knowing if something works or not because authors have access to their numbers, they have access to their dashboard, they don't have to print thousands of copies ahead of time. So like publishers are very risk averse. So if something works, they're not gonna change it. Which is why they're not taking risks with different covers. They're not they're not thinking like, What if we try this when you have Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: hundred thousand copies being printed that might not sell if you're not hitting the market correctly. Whereas in indie publishing, like if your book isn't selling, you can turn around and in seven days have a new cover and like test it out, see if that works. ⁓ So I think the fact that that's so reactive in the indie space and then that was brought into traditional, like they're like, ⁓ this actually works also. So it forces them to see it in a different way. ⁓ So yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Right. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. ⁓ Oh that's ⁓ Courtney Richter: no more and no longer the real people on covers. It's been a big shift that took a while to get all of them, but ⁓ so many get reissued without the real people. I th- I was gonna say it's probably about the time it's coming back. Cat TRC Designs: I'm going to say I think it's coming back. I see. It is. I think if you look at... I think it's coming back in ways that are interesting. So if you look at the ⁓ Rachel Gillig, her new series, ⁓ Knight in the Moon, like they did a full photo shoot with a model to make that cover. And I think that's so fun because it's not stock. Like they they like hired a photographer, they hired a model, they had it Caitlin Stryker: Okay. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Right. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: They had them dress up, they had all of the props around it, took photos, edited that photo. I think that's like a lost art that's like starting to come back. And then you look at Kiss of the Basilisk. There's a model on it, but it's not in your face in a very like traditional way that we used to see it. And I think that's really interesting. ⁓ I think that like Renaissance style of like not painting, but like that that vibe is coming back. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Tabia. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: is really fun in romance because it was always kind of that kind of like sensual aspect to it. ⁓ So I think that's gonna be big soon. I think that's that's on its way back. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: It's interesting though, because I feel like that can sometimes stop like I think part of what pulled in more people to the romance and like kind of smutty romance world, spicy romance world, is that they made it kind of sweeter covers that you can feel like you're reading without people knowing what you're reading, as opposed to the old like Danielle Steele way or the old like Fabio literally on the cover with the woman like neck revealed. And so I think it's gonna be a fun line and it's gonna be fun to see where people go with it. I, I like I think it's awesome, but I it does Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Courtney Richter: They have made them more kind of like public transit safe that people don't have to know what you're reading as opposed to before. Like I knew where my mom's like romance books were when I was a kid or my grandmother's. There's like that mass market pile of sexy covers that we weren't allowed to read. Like it's Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah Cat TRC Designs: also think mass market paperbacks are coming back. Like the pocketbook. Like ⁓ I've I've seen some publishers do that they'll put a different cover on it. That's like a little bit more reminiscent of ⁓ what ⁓ was out there. So I Collide, is that correct? By Bal Khabra I think she has one. And it's blue. Courtney Richter: Yeah. ⁓ yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, I think those are coming back. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: I was shocked when I heard that that that was becoming a mass market because it's so not typical ⁓ of that genre specifically, because like YA sports romance. You don't expect a mass market. Caitlin Stryker: Mm. Right. Yeah, I know. Cat TRC Designs: Is it YA? I thought it was new. Yeah. I thought it was new adults. Courtney Richter: Collide? It's it's new well yeah. I kind of consider that the same thing. So yes, it's not teen. It is new adult. Sorry. Yes. Like nineteen to twenty but like I put it in that range. Yes, it's not YA. You were correct, it's new adult. Yes. Cat TRC Designs: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm, yeah. Cat TRC Designs: But yeah, I think that's like also bridges the gap with like the older readers who are used to having that kind of packaging for their romance books. ⁓ And I think it's fun to also bring it back as a kind of cheeky little like, you know, we're still here, the foundation of romance was this and it will always remain this. And it's kind of like, you know, we love the discreet covers, but like we're not ashamed Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: of reading romance and like yeah. And I think it it's fun to to play with that a little bit. Courtney Richter: No, we have pride. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ It I hear what you're saying there I'm like, ⁓ I see where there's a renaissance of that coming then. ⁓ Courtney Richter: love the idea. I love us like that's what this podcast is about owning and enjoying romance and romantasy without shame and just you know digging it from the rafters to get in this world. So I'd love if that's coming back in covers and being embraced and that it's just gonna be kind of shoved in everyone's face, like, yes, we're here, we're loud. Look what we're reading. ⁓ My favorite I had this older lady, like literally in her late 80s, because I know her, about coming looking for King of Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Gluttony. Like she that was she was ready. She's like, it's finally out. Is it like and she's read them all and just loves it. And talking about I'm like, yes, like it's just it does transcend all ages. All the women and men that like can get into these books and read them. So you're right. Maybe even calling back for the older ones it could be like, ⁓ this is what I used to read and it's still that same space. It will be helpful for that. Caitlin Stryker: Nya! Cat TRC Designs: ⁓ that's so cute. Caitlin Stryker: best. Cat TRC Designs: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Cat TRC Designs: Yeah. And I think it's it's funny because like I remember being told by either authors or publishers that people on covers don't sell. And I remember thinking, bringing it back to City of Bones, there is a half naked man on that cover. Caitlin Stryker: Mm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah Cat TRC Designs: In the YA section, with tattoo, tattoos, we know they're not tattoos, but all over him. There were people on covers when we were teenagers, on the paranormal covers, the vampire books, the fairy books, everything. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Sweet Valley High Books, Babysitter's Club, like, you know, like if you go way back. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Cat TRC Designs: And I think Courtney Richter: That used to be the traditional way. Cat TRC Designs: I think like we're kind of nostalgic for that now. Like we've hit that point where we kinda want that again. And it it'll always be cyclical. So like when I was starting on covers, there were still a lot of model covers and it was in the romance space. And then like a year and a half to two years later it was like, oh ⁓ no, we, we don't want people on them anymore. We want like objects or or more abstract designs. And I think now there's also the hybrid way. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm. Cat TRC Designs: Where the e-book will have a model on it, but then the print version is like bookstore friendly and will be more discreet. And I, I did air quotes there for the podcast listeners. But, but yeah I think it's shifting a little bit. I think we're in a sp- in a time where it's gonna start to change. Like I think the illustrated covers Courtney Richter: Mm. Yes. Mm. ⁓ Cat TRC Designs: Like they went from being flat vector to being a bit more detailed and like painted. So if you think of like the the new Emily McIntyre books, they're they're not like the illustrated covers you were seeing three years ago or two years ago. So I think we're going into that more classical space, which leads into the more like Renaissance painting, Renaissance vibed covers that are coming. ⁓ That's what I foresee. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ I love. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. I hope you're right. It's to be, ⁓ TBD, but said it here. We'll see if that's ⁓ what's coming Said it here first. ⁓ Thank you much for coming on, Cat. It's been so fun to chat with you and learn about this other side of the publishing world that none of us well, at least I certainly didn't know anything about. And it's been fascinating to hear all about it. And I will definitely post the two covers of the books once so you guys can guess which is which. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Right? Cat TRC Designs: We said it here first. Caitlin Stryker: No. Yes, Cass and Cat. Cat TRC Designs: Cass and Cat. Courtney Richter: ⁓ Yeah, so thank you It's episode of Cait and Court's Cozy Corner. Happy reading and we will see you next time. ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Amazing. See you next time, bye. Courtney Richter: Bye.