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Feminist Movie Friday: The Watermelon Woman · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
0:06
Speaker 2: I'm welcome stuff. I never told you protection of iHeartRadio.
0:18
Speaker 2: And today we're talking about the groundbreaking, historic nineteen ninety
0:23
Speaker 2: six film The water Wellon Woman, written, directed, and edited
0:27
Speaker 2: and starring Cheryldonier, who, by the way, has done a
0:30
Speaker 2: lot of great interviews, even some pretty recently.
0:34
Speaker 1: I just like, don't like the fight that you called
0:35
Speaker 1: it historic for nineteen ninety six, and I'm offended. I
0:39
Speaker 1: want that to be noted. Okay, keep going.
0:43
Speaker 2: It was historic and some of the things it did not.
0:46
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
0:48
Speaker 2: Sure, Oh geez, all right, but yes, you can find
0:53
Speaker 2: a lot of good interviews with Cheryldonier recently done a
0:57
Speaker 2: lot with Criterion because this new has been in a
1:01
Speaker 2: lot of ways inducted into the Criterion collection. It's a
1:06
Speaker 2: dramedy rom com semi autobiography that follows Cheryl's attempts to
1:12
Speaker 2: uncover the history of Mammy, actress Fay Richards, who played
1:17
Speaker 2: the Watermelon Woman, that's what she was credited as. This
1:21
Speaker 2: was the first US film to be written by an
1:23
Speaker 2: out black lesbian, and it went on to win critical
1:27
Speaker 2: acclaim and so much more. It also got a lot
1:31
Speaker 2: of pushback that we'll talk about later. It's interesting because
1:37
Speaker 2: every every year when we're picking out movies for these
1:41
Speaker 2: kind of events like Pride, we get the same sort
1:45
Speaker 2: of movies on the list. This one's been on our
1:47
Speaker 2: list like for years.
1:49
Speaker 1: Yeah for a minute.
1:51
Speaker 2: Yes, And it's kind of sad how often it's like
1:55
Speaker 2: a list hasn't expanded that much. But I was excited
2:01
Speaker 2: to see this one. And it is really technically interesting
2:04
Speaker 2: because it switches between different styles of film, So you've
2:08
Speaker 2: got sixteen millimeter and sort of like a grainy filming
2:12
Speaker 2: myself thing of the nineties, like two camcorder, you know. Yeah.
2:18
Speaker 2: On top of that, it has a bunch of other
2:19
Speaker 2: aspects like photos that gave it a documentary feel. It's
2:23
Speaker 2: been rescreened at colleges. It's the subject of discussion and
2:27
Speaker 2: just really left a lasting impression. Also, Yes, it came
2:34
Speaker 2: out in the nineties. Glorious, glorious nineties transitions and fonts
2:40
Speaker 2: just truly. Yeah, and it did it made me nostalgic
2:46
Speaker 2: for video rental places.
2:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, that did make me laugh, which I feel like
2:51
Speaker 1: was a center of a lot of nineties Yeah. Cool kids,
2:55
Speaker 1: you either worked out the videos, uh, rental place, a
2:58
Speaker 1: CD or record shop. Yeah, one of those two.
3:01
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, h I loved it. In twenty twenty one,
3:07
Speaker 2: the film This film was chosen by the Library of
3:09
Speaker 2: Congress's National Film Registry. Her preservation for being quote cultury
3:14
Speaker 2: historically are esthetically significant. So I mean again, it made
3:20
Speaker 2: a lasting impression. That's a long time from nineteen ninety six,
3:24
Speaker 2: I guess, all right. So here is the plot. Cheryl
3:31
Speaker 2: is a black lesbian twenty something who works at a
3:35
Speaker 2: video rental store in Philadelphia with her friend Tamara, who
3:39
Speaker 2: is also a black lesbian. As a film person, particularly
3:43
Speaker 2: interested in films from the thirties and forties, and especially
3:46
Speaker 2: how black women were portrayed and often uncredited in them,
3:49
Speaker 2: Cheryl decides to make a documentary about a black actress
3:52
Speaker 2: simply credited as the Watermelon Woman in the fictional film
3:56
Speaker 2: Plantation Memories. She wants to find out out who this
4:01
Speaker 2: woman was and shed light on her story and maybe
4:04
Speaker 2: learn more about herself alone way, and she keeps putting
4:06
Speaker 2: it off by the way, She's like, I've got to
4:08
Speaker 2: work on this project, and that it never does. But
4:10
Speaker 2: we finally get to see her working on it. She
4:14
Speaker 2: interviews an array of people, including.
4:16
Speaker 3: Her mom who was actually her mom Oh okay, yeah,
4:20
Speaker 3: until she learns the name of the actress is Faith Richardson,
4:25
Speaker 3: and it's implied to her that Faith or Faye, was
4:29
Speaker 3: in a relationship with the white lesbian director of the
4:32
Speaker 3: film they worked on together.
4:35
Speaker 2: And this really resonated with Cheryl for a lot of reasons,
4:38
Speaker 2: and she also starts dating a white lesbian customer of
4:42
Speaker 2: the video rental place that they both worked at, named Diana.
4:46
Speaker 2: Another interview leads her to the Center for Lesbian Information
4:50
Speaker 2: and Technology or CLIT, where she finds this autographed photo
4:54
Speaker 2: of Fay dedicated to someone named June Walker. Diana then
4:58
Speaker 2: comes in and says she can up Cheryl with Martha Page,
5:03
Speaker 2: the sister of Martha Page, the director that was presumably
5:05
Speaker 2: in a relationship with Faye. Meanwhile, Tamara accuses Cheryl of
5:10
Speaker 2: wishing to be white, denouncing her relationship with Diana, who
5:13
Speaker 2: she believes has a fetish for black women or black people.
5:18
Speaker 2: Cheryl is able to contact June Walker, a black woman,
5:22
Speaker 2: who informs Cheryl that they were in a relationship her
5:26
Speaker 2: and Faye for two decades, but now Faye is dead.
5:30
Speaker 2: Cheryl sets out to meet her in person, but June
5:32
Speaker 2: is hospitalized before she arrives. Cheryl's given a letter from
5:36
Speaker 2: June outlining the truth of her and Faye's relationship and
5:40
Speaker 2: her hurt at the rumors that she was with Martha.
5:46
Speaker 2: She pleads with Cheryl to tell the world the truth,
5:49
Speaker 2: and Cheryl, who didn't get to meet Martha, who is
5:53
Speaker 2: a strange from Tamara has broken up with Diana, completes
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Speaker 2: her documentary and is like, I have so much much
6:00
Speaker 2: more to do, and that's where it ends. It's very
6:04
Speaker 2: like it feels I've seen too many horror movies, found
6:08
Speaker 2: footage horror movies.
6:09
Speaker 1: I was thinking the same thing. I knew that was
6:10
Speaker 1: gonna come.
6:11
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, no, because I kept being like, but it
6:14
Speaker 2: has that kind of feel of like here's this clip,
6:18
Speaker 2: and here's this photo, and here's I know, I should
6:23
Speaker 2: be thinking documentary, but I've found footage. Vibe was just
6:28
Speaker 2: too strong. But yeah, I mean, and it's got it's
6:33
Speaker 2: just so nineties. It's such a product of its time,
6:37
Speaker 2: Like the way it transitions from scenes. I think that's
6:41
Speaker 2: part of what had me thinking of it. Found footage.
6:45
Speaker 1: It did because I wasn't quite sure the back and
6:48
Speaker 1: forth of like, this is not obviously documentary for real,
6:51
Speaker 1: because you're seeing her reactions about talking without and then
6:56
Speaker 1: her filming herself, so it's like it's both.
6:58
Speaker 2: It's a split yes, yes, and you know you have
7:03
Speaker 2: her like kind of real life going alongside this project
7:08
Speaker 2: that she's trying to do and you see the parallels
7:11
Speaker 2: in that. But it is it would be like, just
7:19
Speaker 2: have a text on screen and again the font's amazing,
7:23
Speaker 2: and then it would move into another thing and I'm like, oh, okay,
7:26
Speaker 2: that scenms over.
7:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple of buzzbuments where they would have one
7:31
Speaker 1: sentence and then you'd move on. But wait, oh okay, okay.
7:37
Speaker 2: It's very much very nineties and when it came out
7:41
Speaker 2: it did make a huge wave. It premiered at the
7:47
Speaker 2: Berlin International Film Festival in nineteen ninety six and it
7:50
Speaker 2: won the Teddy Prize. It won many other awards at
7:54
Speaker 2: film festivals after that. However, this was the time of
7:58
Speaker 2: a lot of strife around LGBTQ plus issues in the
8:01
Speaker 2: United States, and a Republican congressman called it possibly pornographic,
8:08
Speaker 2: which yes, when it comes to controversy, this film's three
8:13
Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars. Budget was financed in part by a
8:16
Speaker 2: grant distributed by the National Endowment of the Arts, alongside
8:20
Speaker 2: donations and fundraisers. However, the NEA funding came under intent
8:26
Speaker 2: scrutiny after the film came out because it does have
8:29
Speaker 2: a lesbian sex scene, and it was the funding structure
8:34
Speaker 2: was restructured and people in Congress. Republicans in Congress were
8:40
Speaker 2: basically saying, yeah, this is the government paying for porn.
8:43
Speaker 2: We cannot have this. And I have to say, when
8:46
Speaker 2: I read this, because I knew about this before I
8:48
Speaker 2: watched it, I was like, really, And then I watched it,
8:54
Speaker 2: I have to say, it was steamier than I thought
8:56
Speaker 2: it would be.
8:57
Speaker 1: It was ready for the nineties. I was shocked that
9:01
Speaker 1: allowed for all of that to be seen and I
9:05
Speaker 1: didn't notice did it have a rating?
9:08
Speaker 2: So the one I watched is the re release that
9:11
Speaker 2: happened kind of kind of recently, and it was like
9:16
Speaker 2: PG thirteen.
9:18
Speaker 1: Okay, oh really I.
9:19
Speaker 2: Think at the time, I don't know what it was
9:21
Speaker 2: at the time.
9:22
Speaker 1: All right, well, but I thing it was was it
9:24
Speaker 1: pre or when it was just PG and.
9:26
Speaker 2: R like that was the o eighties that heppened?
9:29
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, close. I was like, huh, very surprised it
9:33
Speaker 1: was PG thirteen though, was still.
9:35
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was. What I was watching
9:37
Speaker 2: it on was using a different it's almost like a
9:40
Speaker 2: TV system of rating instead of a movie system. Yeah,
9:43
Speaker 2: I got you, So I'm not sure, but it was
9:46
Speaker 2: like thirteen. I think it's a thirteen, and.
9:48
Speaker 1: I was like, are we thirteen?
9:50
Speaker 2: Okay? Okay, well, but it was. I had to admit.
9:56
Speaker 2: It was steamier than I thought it would be, but
9:57
Speaker 2: it wasn't anything.
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Speaker 1: Like, oh crazy obviously like any vagina. It was all
10:02
Speaker 1: like boobs, which is typically okay, but still like again
10:06
Speaker 1: because you usually when it's women, right, like that's an
10:10
Speaker 1: automatic R if not X yeah and R yeah.
10:15
Speaker 2: But I mean that was one of the ways it
10:17
Speaker 2: was historic. Samantha is having this this sex scene in it,
10:23
Speaker 2: and it was I mean, yeah, they really got down
10:29
Speaker 2: to it. Okay. So here are some of the themes.
10:48
Speaker 2: I think it's a very great example of intersecting identity
10:52
Speaker 2: because you have Cheryl who is a black lesbian and
10:59
Speaker 2: kind of deal with all of what that means to
11:01
Speaker 2: her and what it means to people in her life
11:06
Speaker 2: and how that impacts her. So you do get a
11:11
Speaker 2: couple of instances throughout the movie. I feel like there's
11:16
Speaker 2: a lot of instances of people being like too afraid
11:18
Speaker 2: to say, oh, she was gay, like she hung out
11:22
Speaker 2: of this place, and we know what that probably meant,
11:27
Speaker 2: but it's not. It doesn't feel like it's coming from
11:31
Speaker 2: a necessarily hateful place. But we do get like Martha's
11:35
Speaker 2: sister saying, Oh, my sister, wasn't that kind of woman?
11:40
Speaker 2: Do not spread these rumors, even though it's been like
11:43
Speaker 2: confirmed or printed in all of these other things, being
11:48
Speaker 2: that kind of woman being gay. So you have that,
11:53
Speaker 2: and then you have the question of race, which comes
11:57
Speaker 2: up in a lot of different ways in this. One
11:59
Speaker 2: of the interesting ways I thought was because Cheryl kind
12:04
Speaker 2: of does a history of black cinema, it's interesting to
12:12
Speaker 2: hear and to see how she's like, you know, these
12:17
Speaker 2: these movies that featured mostly black people were screened at
12:23
Speaker 2: these theaters, or they were screened before these movies that
12:26
Speaker 2: had largely white people or something. But how that kind
12:29
Speaker 2: of all faded away because people wanted that like Hollywood movie.
12:36
Speaker 2: But there used to be these theaters that were completely
12:39
Speaker 2: dedicated to that, or these clubs or things like that.
12:45
Speaker 2: That were just completely dedicated to that and they went away.
12:52
Speaker 2: She goes to a bunch of them and they're all
12:54
Speaker 2: closed up, like boarded up. So that's sort of gentrification
13:01
Speaker 2: and just loss of culture our spaces to have that
13:06
Speaker 2: culture in public. And then there's also a lot of
13:11
Speaker 2: instances where she runs into white people gatekeeping her kind
13:16
Speaker 2: of like assuming she's illiterate. She goes to the library
13:20
Speaker 2: and the librarians like, did you do the most basic thing?
13:24
Speaker 2: And they're like, yes, we did, yeah, kind of like
13:30
Speaker 2: keeping her from information when you're talking about at the clit,
13:35
Speaker 2: which is sort of a it's framed as like a
13:38
Speaker 2: rules based thing, but it felt very like gatekeepy. She's
13:43
Speaker 2: accosted by the police at one point who were like,
13:47
Speaker 2: this can't be your camera, that's impossible, and that she
13:52
Speaker 2: does have a lot of like the movie starts where
13:54
Speaker 2: there her and her friend Tamera are filming at a
13:57
Speaker 2: wedding and she's setting up a shot and this white
14:05
Speaker 2: photographer steps directly front of her and she's like, what
14:10
Speaker 2: do you think I'm doing here? Like just being undermined
14:15
Speaker 2: and ignored, and this is her That's what she wants
14:17
Speaker 2: to do. She wants to film. She wants to make
14:20
Speaker 2: these things. Another line that really stuck out to me
14:25
Speaker 2: was at the library when he said, check the black
14:27
Speaker 2: section in the library, which, as we know, a lot
14:33
Speaker 2: of stuff has come about this recently about the Dewey
14:36
Speaker 2: decimal system and how it's set up. But he's just like, yeah,
14:41
Speaker 2: go over to that one section. And then you've got Diana,
14:49
Speaker 2: who is a well off white lesbian. The white girl
14:53
Speaker 2: lesbian they meet at the rental store kind of hit
14:59
Speaker 2: it up, but she doesn't really defend Cheryl when that
15:05
Speaker 2: interviewee that she Martha's sister. She set up it's kind
15:10
Speaker 2: of abusive towards Cheryl. She just says some things that
15:15
Speaker 2: are off where you're like, I don't know about you,
15:20
Speaker 2: and this causes a rift between Tamara and Cheryl. Tamara says,
15:27
Speaker 2: all I see is that once again you're going out
15:30
Speaker 2: with a white girl who want to be black, and
15:36
Speaker 2: they do get into a lot of like disagreements about this.
15:41
Speaker 2: Tamara also doesn't get why Cheryl would want to learn
15:44
Speaker 2: more about an actor who played into these played these
15:47
Speaker 2: racist characatures, but to sharel this is one of the
15:50
Speaker 2: only ways she was seeing herself represented. But she also
15:53
Speaker 2: just wanted to know who this person was. She saw
15:56
Speaker 2: this movie and was like, who is this? I want
15:59
Speaker 2: to know? But it does also put our rift in
16:04
Speaker 2: in their relationship. Tamara also has a bad habit of
16:09
Speaker 2: setting sharell up with not so great blind dates. Shall
16:16
Speaker 2: we say so that it hm. I knew we were
16:24
Speaker 2: talking about this before, but Samantha has the real secondhand
16:27
Speaker 2: embarrassment thing. And I was watching that scene with the
16:32
Speaker 2: karaoke at the beginning and I was like, Oh, Smith's
16:34
Speaker 2: not gonna lie.
16:35
Speaker 1: No, I'm not happy, I'm not gonna lie in the
16:39
Speaker 1: nineties acting and this was I think our first film, right,
16:44
Speaker 1: so like of course she didn't have a budget and
16:46
Speaker 1: all these things that she was bringing people in, but
16:49
Speaker 1: yeah it did. I was like, Oh, this entire thing
16:51
Speaker 1: is making me cringe so hard and every way, but
16:55
Speaker 1: I love that it is represented here. For sure, I wonder,
16:59
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've sure we could probably find a
17:02
Speaker 1: interview with her talking about what would change today if
17:05
Speaker 1: they could remake that movie, because everything in it it
17:10
Speaker 1: still kind of stands, you know the fact that you know,
17:13
Speaker 1: the erasure and trying to hunt things and people of color,
17:16
Speaker 1: especially black women in this industry is hard to find today,
17:20
Speaker 1: so it would be probably the same look with better acting,
17:25
Speaker 1: not necessarily from her, but like in general, like that
17:28
Speaker 1: the one as that were supposed to be like funny lines.
17:31
Speaker 1: It took me a second because I was like, why
17:33
Speaker 1: were they trying? It was, Oh, that's supposed to be funny,
17:38
Speaker 1: you know. I'm thinking about the dude who played the
17:41
Speaker 1: boss at the videotape store like oftentimes, and then the
17:44
Speaker 1: white girl who played the coworker that scene where she
17:48
Speaker 1: walks in to hit on the black woman, which was like,
17:52
Speaker 1: h at clit. It looked like I thought they were
17:55
Speaker 1: actually trying to have her act like I thought that
17:58
Speaker 1: this was supposed to be a set up for her documentary,
18:01
Speaker 1: and then I realized, oh, no, this is supposed to okay,
18:04
Speaker 1: never mind like moments like that when I was like,
18:07
Speaker 1: what's what is this? But all that to say is
18:10
Speaker 1: I think it's such an amazing representation. There was a
18:12
Speaker 1: lot of awkward moments. The singing. It was so awkward
18:18
Speaker 1: that I can't get past the awkward part to make
18:20
Speaker 1: it to be funny. Because the fact that her friends
18:23
Speaker 1: were so ready the friends of the person that was
18:25
Speaker 1: being set up were so ready to like root for her,
18:28
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh no, boy, yeah, this film
18:35
Speaker 1: was really interesting throwing back to the nineties for real.
18:38
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, right, Well they did cut away
18:41
Speaker 2: before she finished the song, so not.
18:43
Speaker 1: Before the high note though, not before the high.
18:46
Speaker 2: Note, but before she finished that song. Uh, but yeah,
18:52
Speaker 2: that was that was pretty early on too. Yeah, it
18:55
Speaker 2: was quickly on, yes, But I do think that was
19:00
Speaker 2: one thing that was really interesting is seeing the complexity
19:08
Speaker 2: of relationships with all these identities in mind and having
19:12
Speaker 2: these disagreements and trying to work through them because no
19:20
Speaker 2: community is a monolith. We've talked about that all the time.
19:25
Speaker 2: So I thought that was really handled well of just
19:29
Speaker 2: the kind of when you rub against someone who you
19:35
Speaker 2: are friends with, or who you're interested in, or all
19:39
Speaker 2: of those things. But this does bring us to another
19:42
Speaker 2: big theme, which is something you mentioned history and representation,
19:47
Speaker 2: and this is something we've talked about at length on
19:51
Speaker 2: this show, is the importance of documenting history, the importance
19:56
Speaker 2: of who's documenting it. We've just on so many books
20:01
Speaker 2: or movies that are about this kind of very thing,
20:06
Speaker 2: and that's in part because of things like a rasuer
20:09
Speaker 2: purposeful erasure. This movie was dedicated to black actresses who
20:15
Speaker 2: played this Mammy role, specifically Eat Butterfly McQueen, Hattie McDaniel,
20:19
Speaker 2: and Louise Beavers and others who were often forgotten are
20:23
Speaker 2: not credited. Fay Richards is fictional, and at the end
20:27
Speaker 2: it says like, sometimes your story isn't there, so you
20:32
Speaker 2: make one up. But as a stand in for them,
20:36
Speaker 2: they couldn't afford the archival footage. But also it kind
20:40
Speaker 2: of gives the whole thing more breathing room. Fay used
20:43
Speaker 2: to sing in Philadelphia lesbian ballrooms as well, and that's
20:47
Speaker 2: sort of how she Cheryl found her from people who
20:53
Speaker 2: remembered her from there. The director was inspired to make
20:59
Speaker 2: the movie after taking an African American film class and
21:02
Speaker 2: learning that most black women from the thirties and forties
21:05
Speaker 2: were uncredited. I also thought it was interesting that they
21:08
Speaker 2: have this whole scene where they go to see I
21:13
Speaker 2: think it's a friend or like an uncle of Tamaraz
21:16
Speaker 2: and he's like kind of notoriously not great with women, right,
21:21
Speaker 2: and he's like, Oh, I don't know who you were
21:24
Speaker 2: talking about. I don't know what that is. This also
21:37
Speaker 2: gave me a chance to learn about Camille Anna Pagnia,
21:41
Speaker 2: who I didn't know but is a feminist who is
21:45
Speaker 2: extremely controversial, and I was looking up her thoughts and
21:53
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, dear, But just so Cheryl interviews
21:58
Speaker 2: her and who it still exists as a real feminist,
22:05
Speaker 2: and she's like, I don't think we're reading too much
22:08
Speaker 2: into this mammy stereotype. We're doing all the like we're
22:11
Speaker 2: thinking too much about this or whatever. She basically thinks
22:15
Speaker 2: like feminism began to stalin esque, but she's got some
22:23
Speaker 2: nobody's perfect, but she's got some problematic.
22:25
Speaker 1: Views, like she she's not terf is she is she?
22:31
Speaker 2: No, she identifies, at least the brief search that I did,
22:37
Speaker 2: as transgender. But she also doesn't think she made it
22:44
Speaker 2: sound like it's not that big of a deal to her.
22:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I feel like that may be part of
22:49
Speaker 1: the whole entirety of the film is the going back
22:51
Speaker 1: and forth. And I've seen this with like you know,
22:54
Speaker 1: conversations and race and all that. We wish everything was
22:57
Speaker 1: so normalized that it wouldn't have to be a thing.
23:00
Speaker 1: It doesn't. No one wants to characterize the thing it's
23:02
Speaker 1: a big significant deal or have to like call yourself
23:05
Speaker 1: trans you could just be a woman, you know, you
23:07
Speaker 1: don't have to call yourself, you know, the Asian actor,
23:10
Speaker 1: you can just be an actor, Like all these different conversations,
23:13
Speaker 1: And I think this is a part of that play
23:15
Speaker 1: in because it feels like Cheryl goes back and forth
23:18
Speaker 1: and like she's attracted to who she's attracted to, why
23:20
Speaker 1: can't she be? And on one side she has people
23:23
Speaker 1: like you're you're attracted to a white woman who fetish
23:25
Speaker 1: does a women or fletchhes black women specifically, And she's like,
23:29
Speaker 1: but I really like her and we get along, and
23:30
Speaker 1: then you come to the flip side that they're not wrong,
23:32
Speaker 1: like the girlfriends are talking about having black boyfriends and
23:35
Speaker 1: black boyfriends and black boyfriends and black girlfriends, and you
23:37
Speaker 1: see her with a black woman obviously in something in
23:40
Speaker 1: one and in another part, so like it does seem
23:43
Speaker 1: that they're right, but this back and forth like why
23:45
Speaker 1: can't it be just that?
23:47
Speaker 2: Yeah?
23:48
Speaker 1: And I think that's that conversation that this person which
23:52
Speaker 1: I didn't realize she was a significant character, that I
23:53
Speaker 1: didn't realize who she was at all. I was like, oh,
23:55
Speaker 1: I thought she was just the fiction person brought into
23:57
Speaker 1: this as well. I wonder if that's her true commentary.
24:02
Speaker 2: I so I the first time I was reading about it,
24:05
Speaker 2: they made it sound like she was playing into it, okay.
24:08
Speaker 2: But then the second time, but then I looked her up, yeah,
24:12
Speaker 2: and I was like, it doesn't this sounds like something
24:14
Speaker 2: she would have said.
24:16
Speaker 1: Because like, obviously Fay was a character and they're kind
24:20
Speaker 1: of talking about that references like have you ever heard
24:21
Speaker 1: of this woman? And she's like no, blah blah blah.
24:24
Speaker 1: But this over the top stereotype is everything turns into
24:28
Speaker 1: that conversation that most white liberals or white feminists especially
24:32
Speaker 1: would say. It would be like why does it have
24:34
Speaker 1: to be about race? And you're like, ugh, that is
24:36
Speaker 1: that question, but it does because you are racist, Like
24:41
Speaker 1: these are those comments, so like these things are inherently
24:44
Speaker 1: bad and systemically there is racism, so we have to
24:47
Speaker 1: talk about race, but yes, we get it. We would
24:50
Speaker 1: love to be like why does it have to be
24:52
Speaker 1: but a woman like, yes we do, but we know
24:55
Speaker 1: because that is held up against us. We have to
24:58
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that we are women, you know,
25:00
Speaker 1: all these different things, and it feels very like it
25:03
Speaker 1: feels like a push against that white feminist, especially white
25:07
Speaker 1: lesbian feminists in that arc, that Clitt organization the entire time.
25:12
Speaker 1: And I know this was supposed to be a funny
25:14
Speaker 1: moment because the girls like the constantly going run by volunteers.
25:18
Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit by volunteers. We'll get to you in
25:21
Speaker 1: six months, like this type of conversation, and as she's
25:24
Speaker 1: trying to do research, she's like, don't take pictures like
25:27
Speaker 1: so like on top of her for every little thing
25:30
Speaker 1: as well, but at the same time braggy about the
25:32
Speaker 1: fact that I don't make any money off of this.
25:34
Speaker 1: I'm cool. Like that kind of scenario is very interesting
25:39
Speaker 1: in that conversation and also in having that forethought about
25:43
Speaker 1: the fact that many black women weren't weren't known or
25:48
Speaker 1: their name wasn't public out there when it came to
25:50
Speaker 1: white art. But in actuality, this Fay was a huge
25:54
Speaker 1: star in the black film world. She was started in
25:57
Speaker 1: many of films and they were trying to push her
25:59
Speaker 1: to be the big star of most films. They had
26:03
Speaker 1: that one Faith film where I guess you have that
26:05
Speaker 1: either younger daughter or sibling who wants to be white,
26:09
Speaker 1: and that go back and forth in face character being
26:12
Speaker 1: like why do you have to be Why can't you
26:13
Speaker 1: be who you are? All these things like there's so
26:16
Speaker 1: much like on in this that was so crammed packed
26:20
Speaker 1: that I feel like we can we could talk forever
26:24
Speaker 1: about and dissect one portion of that because it had
26:26
Speaker 1: that level of like, once again we had this very famous,
26:29
Speaker 1: supposedly not famous actress but actually she is. And the
26:33
Speaker 1: only reason they've found her is because she went through
26:35
Speaker 1: black archives which were scattered away. And then the whole
26:41
Speaker 1: feminist clet organization talking about, well, we did get some money,
26:44
Speaker 1: but it's only for this, and then they only have
26:46
Speaker 1: small box and it's taking them extra long to get
26:51
Speaker 1: to this point or even like they're not paying attention
26:54
Speaker 1: to it even though they even may have gotten the funding.
26:57
Speaker 1: There's again this whole broad stroke things happening, that back
27:01
Speaker 1: and forth of like, yes it exists, but I couldn't
27:05
Speaker 1: find it, and when I found it, I found slightly
27:07
Speaker 1: she actually was well known. They just didn't think that
27:10
Speaker 1: she was well known because of racure. This isn't this
27:13
Speaker 1: And then also like from what I can gather, you
27:17
Speaker 1: can tell me what you think. Cheryl was not necessarily
27:22
Speaker 1: impressed but intrigued by the idea that Martha and Fay
27:26
Speaker 1: were together and felt like maybe it was love because
27:29
Speaker 1: all the pictures looked really like telling and loving and kind.
27:32
Speaker 1: But then we have June coming in and be like, no,
27:34
Speaker 1: that was something that she was very ashamed of, and like,
27:37
Speaker 1: whose shame is this? Is this Another conversation was this
27:40
Speaker 1: is a parallel as it's supposed to be to Cheryl's
27:43
Speaker 1: current life with her friends or is this you know
27:48
Speaker 1: there's so many like back and forth in that.
27:51
Speaker 2: Yes, And that was a theme that I had to
27:55
Speaker 2: bring up, is that you do get kind of get
27:57
Speaker 2: like a blurring of fay story in Cheryl's story because
28:01
Speaker 2: you see similar things. Cheryl starts the film being very
28:08
Speaker 2: like she tries to say she's a filmmaker and then
28:11
Speaker 2: stops and I was like, well, not really a filmmaker,
28:14
Speaker 2: but I do. I do. I work at a rental
28:16
Speaker 2: store and around movies. Like she just kind of is
28:19
Speaker 2: not secure in what she does. But by the end
28:23
Speaker 2: that's not the case anymore. And you also have her
28:27
Speaker 2: dating Diana, this white woman, and having these questions about it,
28:33
Speaker 2: these arguments with her friends about it, and so it
28:37
Speaker 2: is interesting to see the commonalities that they have and
28:41
Speaker 2: I think she feels a real connection to face story
28:46
Speaker 2: and she's really motivated to tell it. And when she
28:51
Speaker 2: does finally contact June, who it was like, No, I've
28:56
Speaker 2: been with Fay for twenty years until she died. This
28:59
Speaker 2: was a why she was ashamed of it? Are she
29:03
Speaker 2: kind of it? To me? It kind of sounds like
29:05
Speaker 2: she had to do.
29:06
Speaker 1: It exploitation seemed to be yeah.
29:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So she had to sort of date her
29:14
Speaker 2: to get into movies. And she tells Cheryl in a note,
29:21
Speaker 2: you know, please tell this history, Please tell the truth.
29:26
Speaker 2: This is what needs to be out there, and she,
29:31
Speaker 2: as far as we know, never gets to meet June,
29:36
Speaker 2: just has this letter. But it is kind of that
29:41
Speaker 2: idea that we've been talking about a lot, I feel
29:44
Speaker 2: like lately, of learning the full truth of someone. Because
29:49
Speaker 2: all she had was this name, the Watermelon Woman. She
29:53
Speaker 2: was interviewing people on the street. No one knew who
29:55
Speaker 2: it was. She was like going to experts and a
29:58
Speaker 2: lot of them were like, I don't know who that is.
30:01
Speaker 2: And then through her research she found this whole person
30:09
Speaker 2: whose story had been told in this one way that
30:13
Speaker 2: was incorrect. And so I think that that's a really
30:17
Speaker 2: powerful thing. But Also alongside that, you have Cheryl's own
30:22
Speaker 2: story of coming into yourself and figuring yourself out, because
30:26
Speaker 2: she has this whole conversation where she's like, you know what,
30:31
Speaker 2: I'm still figuring things out, but she does settle into
30:36
Speaker 2: the idea of I am a storyteller filmmaker, and I
30:42
Speaker 2: have so much more to do. And here's a quote.
30:46
Speaker 2: Most importantly, what I understand is that I'm going to
30:49
Speaker 2: be the one who says I'm a black lesbian filmmaker
30:52
Speaker 2: who's just beginning, but I'm going to say a lot
30:54
Speaker 2: more and have a lot more work to do. So
30:58
Speaker 2: she started the movie where they were kind of ribbing
31:01
Speaker 2: her about you you always say you're going to work
31:04
Speaker 2: on this project. I mean, you never do, and then
31:06
Speaker 2: she did and she made it, and now she is
31:12
Speaker 2: going to do other things right.
31:14
Speaker 1: They're also is like the friendship because she talks about
31:17
Speaker 1: lots of friendships. At the end of it, she's like,
31:19
Speaker 1: I lost this, I lost this, I lost this, but
31:20
Speaker 1: I got this. Maybe we'll fix this. There's this conversation
31:24
Speaker 1: and I don't know, I think and I do know
31:27
Speaker 1: many respect to like her dabbling into filmed, her wanting
31:33
Speaker 1: to do want dating, Diane all these things, which by
31:37
Speaker 1: the way, Tamrell was right there being like, yeah, you
31:39
Speaker 1: should go after her. Why don't you go doctor her
31:41
Speaker 1: like at the very beginning, So it was really odd
31:42
Speaker 1: that she flipped real quick. Maybe that was the girlfriend's influence,
31:46
Speaker 1: because the girlfriend was the one that really had the
31:47
Speaker 1: big problem with her and then kind of built up.
31:49
Speaker 1: But it seemed like there was including the fact that
31:53
Speaker 1: June when you were when you see Cheryl talking to
31:56
Speaker 1: June on the phone and she was like it almost
31:58
Speaker 1: is questioning how black are you? What type of black
32:01
Speaker 1: person are you? Can you prove? How do you make
32:03
Speaker 1: your colors? You know, asking that as well as like
32:07
Speaker 1: that conversation in which not only are they saying maybe
32:11
Speaker 1: Diana just has a fetish with trying to be white.
32:13
Speaker 1: You're trying to do these things. That is too much,
32:16
Speaker 1: You're too overachieving. Like the friend was not nice. I
32:19
Speaker 1: will say Camra was not nice. She was not very
32:21
Speaker 1: supportive in a lot of that. Of course, both of
32:24
Speaker 1: them had a back and forth, but like it felt
32:27
Speaker 1: kind of like maybe that was a part of the
32:29
Speaker 1: journey as well. Again that she came out with like
32:32
Speaker 1: I am black and I am a black queer filmmaker.
32:35
Speaker 1: I'm a lesbian filmmaker, so there doesn't need to be
32:37
Speaker 1: this question. I don't understand why I feel like I
32:39
Speaker 1: have to be questioned. But again, the back and forth
32:42
Speaker 1: of being like, yeah, but Diana did turn out to
32:44
Speaker 1: be exactly what they thought she was in one essence,
32:48
Speaker 1: especially when you see the interaction between the sister of
32:53
Speaker 1: Martha and the three of them, because at the end
32:56
Speaker 1: you have, oh, a black woman who obviously is a
32:59
Speaker 1: housekeeper there. But the way that set up came in,
33:01
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that was very purposeful in that
33:08
Speaker 1: because part of the question was with Martha. Not only
33:10
Speaker 1: was she offended by the idea that she was queer
33:14
Speaker 1: in any way, that she was a lesbian, but she
33:16
Speaker 1: was really offended at the idea that she would be
33:18
Speaker 1: with a black woman. You know it kind of that's
33:21
Speaker 1: kind of the implication in that conversation, and so like
33:25
Speaker 1: there's a whole level of questioning her search in this
33:29
Speaker 1: as well, which I'm sure again as you were saying,
33:31
Speaker 1: is that question that they had in trying to appease
33:34
Speaker 1: white people to make it to finally being herself from
33:38
Speaker 1: the film world. So there's there's that whole back and
33:41
Speaker 1: forth in that as well a lot of thoughts. It's
33:45
Speaker 1: definitely a coming of age or coming into your own.
33:48
Speaker 2: Yes, yes it is. And I love that it's still
33:53
Speaker 2: being screened at colleges. I love that Ryl Dunie is
33:59
Speaker 2: still doing these interviews. But yeah, I mean, I would
34:03
Speaker 2: love listeners from who've never seen it, who were younger.
34:08
Speaker 2: Let us know, the nineties, the nineties, the nineties, it
34:17
Speaker 2: was pretty great. Oh my gosh.
34:19
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. It took me a good twenty minute to
34:21
Speaker 1: get comfortable and then I was like, oh my god,
34:23
Speaker 1: this is all awkward.
34:27
Speaker 2: Oh and the technology, I didn't even talk about that,
34:30
Speaker 2: but hmm, it's good. It's all there for you if
34:35
Speaker 2: you would like it.
34:36
Speaker 1: If you need a time machine to know what historically,
34:39
Speaker 1: and he says happened in the nineties, go check it out.
34:43
Speaker 1: You know.
34:43
Speaker 2: That is a good one thing I did want to
34:46
Speaker 2: bring up that kind of annoyed me. It is historic
34:51
Speaker 2: because this was the first time an out black lesbian
34:54
Speaker 2: woman and the US directed a movie. But I did
34:58
Speaker 2: get kind of annoyed about how many reviews I found
35:03
Speaker 2: of it were like, it's a niche within a niche
35:05
Speaker 2: within a niche, and I'm like, it really shouldn't be.
35:07
Speaker 2: I feel like there's one niche maybe, but the rest
35:10
Speaker 2: of it should be.
35:11
Speaker 1: It's an independent film, right, and it's a niche for
35:16
Speaker 1: the times, but it shouldn't be today.
35:19
Speaker 2: No, Like I because I get I think what they
35:22
Speaker 2: meant was, you know, we don't get a lot of
35:24
Speaker 2: movies like this, That is true. I don't think that
35:27
Speaker 2: means it's a niche, right, I think that's a different problem.
35:32
Speaker 1: But uh.
35:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad we finally watched. It's been
35:38
Speaker 2: on our list for years.
35:39
Speaker 1: It has it has. We bought it up and we're like, oh,
35:42
Speaker 1: well wait, because we couldn't find it it.
35:48
Speaker 2: I did too, I did too, But I recommend it.
35:53
Speaker 2: I think uh it obviously has a lot of salient
35:58
Speaker 2: conversations that are still relevant today. But all right, listeners,
36:04
Speaker 2: if you have any thoughts about this movie or what
36:08
Speaker 2: should be our next movie, please let us know. You
36:10
Speaker 2: can email us at Hello at Steffaniefertoldo dot com. You
36:13
Speaker 2: can find us on Blue Scott Momster podcast on Instagram
36:15
Speaker 2: and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You for us
36:18
Speaker 2: on YouTube, and we have a book you can get
36:20
Speaker 2: wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our
36:22
Speaker 2: super Duce Christina, executive Prus Maya, and a contribuer Joey.
36:25
Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Steffan Never
36:28
Speaker 2: Told You's Booktion of by Heart Radio. For more podcasts
36:29
Speaker 2: on my Heart Radio, you can check out the art
36:31
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