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Sonder and Realization that All People Have Deep Complex Life Experiences · I Hate Talking

• 0:29
  I Hate Talking: Welcome to episode 43 of I Hate Talking.
• 0:33
  I Hate Talking: -- Hi -- everyone.
• 0:34
  I Hate Talking: How do you pronounce neologism?
• 0:38
  I Hate Talking: I don't know, I'd have to read it, but neologism.
• 0:43
  I Hate Talking: I don't know that word.
• 0:45
  I Hate Talking: And ask Well, I guess somebody.
• 0:49
  I Hate Talking: We'll see who responds.
• 0:51
  I Hate Talking: It looks like.
• 0:52
  I Hate Talking: AI has responded.
• 0:54
  I Hate Talking: Neologism neologism.
• 0:57
  I Hate Talking: There you have it.
• 0:59
  I Hate Talking: So the reason we're talking about neologism is because the word or phrase of this episode is a neologism.
• 1:08
  I Hate Talking: Is the word or phrase neologism?
• 1:12
  I Hate Talking: Cause I don't know what that is, even.
• 1:14
  I Hate Talking: Well, we may be getting to 2 or 3 words or phrases of the episode as we discuss this because neologism is not the word or phrase of the episode.
• 1:25
  I Hate Talking: We actually alluded to this in our previous episode with the fact that Perhaps one person's experience is either equivalent or not equivalent with.
• 1:36
  I Hate Talking: The experiences of others.
• 1:39
  I Hate Talking: And I mentioned that there was perhaps a non-English word that describes how.
• 1:47
  I Hate Talking: You perceive the fact that other people have experiences as in depth as your own, but it is actually not a non-English word, it is simply a neologism.
• 1:59
  I Hate Talking: So the word or phrase officially of this episode is the word sonder.
• 2:08
  I Hate Talking: Now this was coined by a gentleman named John Koning in 2012 in his blog, The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows.
• 2:20
  I Hate Talking: And this is where we arrive at the fact that it is a Neologism.
• 2:25
  I Hate Talking: Because it does not necessarily take any etymology, it is just basically a brand new word.
• 2:34
  I Hate Talking: Now there are some possible origins that perhaps this particular gentleman and author was drawing on where there is a French word, sonder that means to probe or plum or a German word sonder that means separate or special.
• 2:52
  I Hate Talking: Or a proto-Germanic word, sundras that means separate, isolated and alone.
• 3:00
  I Hate Talking: So unsure, and he has not said, but perhaps drawing on some of those particular words in other languages, but this is used in an explicitly English work, the dictionary of obscure sorrows, the word sonder.
• 3:17
  I Hate Talking: So he created this word without any pretext.
• 3:23
  I Hate Talking: Correct, no pretext, perhaps no background.
• 3:26
  I Hate Talking: Again, the readers of his works are again theorizing that maybe he's drawing on the French or Germanic languages to come up with this new word in terms of how he is using it and defining it within his literary work.
• 3:43
  I Hate Talking: Interesting.
• 3:45
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 3:46
  I Hate Talking: And then he just expected people to know what he meant?
• 3:49
  I Hate Talking: Or did he just uh describe it?
• 3:52
  I Hate Talking: So, he wrote the dictionary of obscure sorrows.
• 3:56
  I Hate Talking: So this basically is a new word that he is creating, and again, maybe drawing on some other languages there, but he is basically creating that and defining it himself in this literary work.
• 4:08
  I Hate Talking: So, tell me if I'm wrong.
• 4:11
  I Hate Talking: When I hear the word sunder, I think of like using it, I can't think of it without using a sentence, like he sauntered into the room.
• 4:19
  I Hate Talking: So I think you're perhaps thinking of sauntered, which would be a word used in perhaps old westerns where he sauntered into the saloon.
• 4:30
  I Hate Talking: That would be S A U N T E R.
• 4:34
  I Hate Talking: Saunter versus Sonder.
• 4:37
  I Hate Talking: -- Which is S O N D E -- R.
• 4:41
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 4:41
  I Hate Talking: Very similar sounding, but OK.
• 4:43
  I Hate Talking: And what does this word mean?
• 4:45
  I Hate Talking: According to his obscure dictionary, self-published.
• 4:50
  I Hate Talking: Well, I don't know if it's self-published.
• 4:54
  I Hate Talking: Is it?
• 4:55
  I Hate Talking: I don't know.
• 4:56
  I Hate Talking: I guess created self-created.
• 4:57
  I Hate Talking: Well, I think any literary work is self-created, though there is probably quite a few literary works these days, even scientific research papers.
• 5:06
  I Hate Talking: That are not created by people, -- but instead by -- machines.
• 5:10
  I Hate Talking: Right, yeah, AI or like even ghostwriters and stuff, right?
• 5:13
  I Hate Talking: You can't say like self.
• 5:15
  I Hate Talking: Created when you have a ghostwriter.
• 5:17
  I Hate Talking: Well, I don't think that is the case here.
• 5:20
  I Hate Talking: This is 2012.
• 5:21
  I Hate Talking: Hopefully back when people had a little bit more.
• 5:24
  I Hate Talking: 2012?
• 5:26
  I Hate Talking: That wasn't that long ago.
• 5:27
  I Hate Talking: 2012 was 12 years ago.
• 5:30
  I Hate Talking: -- 13 years -- ago 3 years ago.
• 5:32
  I Hate Talking: That wasn't that long ago.
• 5:35
  I Hate Talking: That was the rise of AI, a lot of tools.
• 5:44
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, exactly.
• 5:44
  I Hate Talking: So you had a BlackBerry, is that BlackBerry days?
• 5:47
  I Hate Talking: That was probably BlackBerry days, yes.
• 5:50
  I Hate Talking: Maybe, maybe you had a.
• 5:53
  I Hate Talking: More advanced.
• 5:55
  I Hate Talking: This is a tangent we can get off.
• 5:57
  I Hate Talking: But I did not have a smartphone yet.
• 5:59
  I Hate Talking: So the word saunder as defined by this gentleman, John Koning in his.
• 6:07
  I Hate Talking: Hopefully self-created, probably not self-published work.
• 6:12
  I Hate Talking: Reads as follow.
• 6:14
  I Hate Talking: and this is from a screenshot from Tumblr, so hopefully they got it right.
• 6:19
  I Hate Talking: We didn't actually look up the actual book, nor do we own it, but here we go.
• 6:23
  I Hate Talking: So, Sonder, noun, the realization that each random passerby is living a life as vivid and complex as your own, populated with their own ambitions, friends, routines, worries, and inherited craziness.
• 6:40
  I Hate Talking: An epic story that continues invisibly around you like an ant hill sprawling deep underground with elaborate passageways to thousands of other lives that you'll never know existed in which you might appear only once as an extra sipping coffee in the background as a blur of traffic passing on the highway as a lighted window at dusk.
• 7:03
  I Hate Talking: I love that, so Saunder, it's my new word.
• 7:07
  I Hate Talking: How do you use it in sentence cause I really like that definition.
• 7:10
  I Hate Talking: Well, there you have it, so maybe not as, what was the word you used?
• 7:17
  I Hate Talking: Like sauntered into a room?
• 7:20
  I Hate Talking: No.
• 7:20
  I Hate Talking: Uh, I don't know what you said.
• 7:23
  I Hate Talking: Obscure?
• 7:23
  I Hate Talking: Obscure.
• 7:24
  I Hate Talking: So yes, perhaps shouldn't be as obscure as you perhaps think it is.
• 7:29
  I Hate Talking: Now, I don't think it's completely obscure.
• 7:31
  I Hate Talking: I have run into this in a couple of different Things that I've read in terms of articles or.
• 7:38
  I Hate Talking: Just things that I've seen, so it is, again, not very popular, but I have encountered this particular word on multiple occurrences.
• 7:49
  I Hate Talking: OK, just like as Uh, philosophy.
• 7:53
  I Hate Talking: I very strongly like this, and I'm drawn to this, but how would you use it?
• 7:59
  I Hate Talking: Like I can picture it in my head, but if I'm talking to somebody, What do I say?
• 8:06
  I Hate Talking: or how do you use it?
• 8:07
  I Hate Talking: So it is interesting to note that this does not appear in necessarily any official dictionaries.
• 8:13
  I Hate Talking: The first result in a quote unquote dictionary is the urban dictionary, which defines it as the realization that there aren't any main characters in the world and everyone has a complex life, thoughts, crushes, relatives, dreams, and mind, just as your own.
• 8:31
  I Hate Talking: Essentially, while you're the main character in your own life, you're also a background character in someone else's.
• 8:40
  I Hate Talking: So to use it in a sentence, as you alluded to, their example is the knowledge that both you and me are reading this and our actual people, like the other 8 billion of us, is making Sounder hit me like a truck.
• 8:58
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 8:59
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, cause that's what I wanted to say or was thinking about was that everyone is the main character in their own story.
• 9:08
  I Hate Talking: Just by default, and then you have very close.
• 9:13
  I Hate Talking: Secondary characters like your spouse, your kids, or People you see daily or whatnot.
• 9:20
  I Hate Talking: And then you have like curser characters, and, you know, and it just continues on, right?
• 9:25
  I Hate Talking: Everybody is a main character for themselves.
• 9:29
  I Hate Talking: But isn't necessarily a main character for anyone else.
• 9:34
  I Hate Talking: Precisely, and that Sounder is the realization that that is how you perceive experience, but also at the same time, how others perceive their own experience.
• 9:46
  I Hate Talking: So, would this be an example, um, this sticks in my head.
• 9:50
  I Hate Talking: I've had similar experiences, but there's one specific incident, maybe, I don't know, 5 or 6 years ago.
• 9:58
  I Hate Talking: It sticks in my head to this day.
• 10:00
  I Hate Talking: I was at Costco.
• 10:01
  I Hate Talking: Uh, a beloved place we spend our time because for $1 50s, you get a hot dog and a soda, and that's amazing.
• 10:10
  I Hate Talking: But we were at Costco, I or I was at Costco with my kids, and they were being Awesome.
• 10:18
  I Hate Talking: So helpful getting items for me, carrying them to the cart, just being complete little gentleman.
• 10:25
  I Hate Talking: And then We were there for a longer time than normal.
• 10:30
  I Hate Talking: They were very young at the time.
• 10:32
  I Hate Talking: Uh, for some reason, I guess it was maybe a holiday, I can't really remember exactly, but the checkout was extremely long.
• 10:40
  I Hate Talking: It just took so long.
• 10:42
  I Hate Talking: It was lunchtime, they were hungry.
• 10:44
  I Hate Talking: We were gonna get the Costco Food Court food afterwards.
• 10:47
  I Hate Talking: So, I gave them my phone and was like, here, just Watch YouTube or whatnot, like Bluey or whatever it was on my phone while we waited in line.
• 10:57
  I Hate Talking: And this lady came up to me and she was extremely rude and mean about me handing my phone to my toddlers.
• 11:05
  I Hate Talking: And another lady came up and like interrupted this, and was like, you don't know.
• 11:12
  I Hate Talking: What she's been through, her kids were excellent the entire time I saw them earlier in the store and complimented her.
• 11:19
  I Hate Talking: So you need to mind your own business.
• 11:21
  I Hate Talking: And it was just like this interesting dual perspective of one lady who saw my kids at their best and complimented us.
• 11:29
  I Hate Talking: And another lady who saw us when we were about to melt down.
• 11:34
  I Hate Talking: So, obviously, in my story, I'm the main character, but in this one lady's story that judged me, I was just a little blip.
• 11:41
  I Hate Talking: She probably doesn't remember this at all, but I still remember leaving.
• 11:45
  I Hate Talking: Feeling so bad, but also thankful for that other lady who stood up for me.
• 11:51
  I Hate Talking: But I'm just a little blip in both of their radars, right?
• 11:53
  I Hate Talking: Neither of them probably remember that incident that was forever grained into my brain.
• 11:58
  I Hate Talking: So how would you word that?
• 12:00
  I Hate Talking: Is that Is that the sounder or like am I their sounder?
• 12:05
  I Hate Talking: Or am I using it wrong?
• 12:07
  I Hate Talking: So, as you sauntered through the checkout line.
• 12:10
  I Hate Talking: I don't think you experience sonder because did you consider Either of these other people's lives and perhaps that.
• 12:22
  I Hate Talking: The person that praised you is unable to have children and had to deal with that all their lives and found joy in seeing how other people's children behaved or that the fact that the other lady that was commenting on it had lost her husband to brain cancer due to cell phone usage and that was their experience in life.
• 12:46
  I Hate Talking: I thought the lady who stood up for me was super nice, and I was thankful for her.
• 12:53
  I Hate Talking: And I thought she was super brave too, cause I don't know if I would do that.
• 12:57
  I Hate Talking: And I thought the other lady was a mean old lady, that's super jaded in life.
• 13:05
  I Hate Talking: And I still feel that way.
• 13:07
  I Hate Talking: So that's something different.
• 13:09
  I Hate Talking: I don't know if I know exactly the word that that would be.
• 13:13
  I Hate Talking: Us to describe such an experience.
• 13:17
  I Hate Talking: OK, so can you give me an example then?
• 13:19
  I Hate Talking: In your life of Sonder.
• 13:22
  I Hate Talking: So I think perhaps.
• 13:25
  I Hate Talking: When I'm going through a particular struggle or difficulty or perhaps see somebody else going through a particular struggle or difficulty.
• 13:38
  I Hate Talking: That there is something that we talked about a long time ago.
• 13:43
  I Hate Talking: I think maybe even in our 1st 5 episodes when we were talking about.
• 13:48
  I Hate Talking: The How to Kill a Mockingbird, right?
• 13:51
  I Hate Talking: Walking a mile in their shoes or in their skin, as the quote may go, and that when you consider other people's experiences in light of those challenges and experiences that I would experience sonder that.
• 14:07
  I Hate Talking: When either I'm going through that challenge or struggle, that there are other people that have just as complex struggles, or when I I am aware of somebody else going through that that.
• 14:20
  I Hate Talking: A lot of people going through such things and having a very deep experience in life.
• 14:26
  I Hate Talking: Right, so how does that not, my example not sonder though?
• 14:30
  I Hate Talking: Because I'm thinking of like a commercial that's really big right now, right?
• 14:35
  I Hate Talking: It literally, I've seen it multiple times.
• 14:37
  I Hate Talking: It brings me to tears every time.
• 14:39
  I Hate Talking: And it's about, like, several clips, but there's like a little kid, it shows a little kid having a meltdown.
• 14:47
  I Hate Talking: And this lady being like, OK, let's get a treat.
• 14:50
  I Hate Talking: He, you want like a cookie?
• 14:52
  I Hate Talking: And these people are judging her, right?
• 14:54
  I Hate Talking: Like, oh, see, you need a discipline.
• 14:56
  I Hate Talking: But they didn't see and then it flashes forward like what you didn't see, and this lady was taking this foster kid in.
• 15:04
  I Hate Talking: And this is their first afternoon together.
• 15:07
  I Hate Talking: So, obviously, he's having to melt down cause he doesn't know this lady, right?
• 15:11
  I Hate Talking: And he's been in a traumatic situation.
• 15:14
  I Hate Talking: And so it's like, it's lots of experiences like that, that you judge someone, and then, but you don't know what they're doing.
• 15:22
  I Hate Talking: So, how is my example not the way it is?
• 15:25
  I Hate Talking: I'm not saying trying to fight.
• 15:27
  I Hate Talking: I'm just saying like, how is it not?
• 15:28
  I Hate Talking: Because one person judged me without knowing the circumstance.
• 15:32
  I Hate Talking: And the other person didn't.
• 15:35
  I Hate Talking: Right, but the experience that you had was focused on your own experience and the interactions that you had.
• 15:43
  I Hate Talking: You're treating yourself as the main character, whereas the person that was giving either side of the feedback, they were the main character in their own mind and they may have thought that they were giving you the best advice of their entire lives in that moment.
• 15:58
  I Hate Talking: Right, but like in that commercial, how about one lady's like, oh, you don't discipline your kids.
• 16:03
  I Hate Talking: She didn't know that that wasn't their kid.
• 16:05
  I Hate Talking: But this was a foster kid they just met a couple, like an hour beforehand.
• 16:09
  I Hate Talking: So perhaps they were not experiencing sonder because they were not considering that.
• 16:15
  I Hate Talking: You were having a particular experience that is as full and complex as their own, but you are describing your own experience as the key thing in this interaction.
• 16:28
  I Hate Talking: And that's not the point of Sonder.
• 16:31
  I Hate Talking: Sonder is the realization that other people have.
• 16:35
  I Hate Talking: Deep and complex experience that they live out in their own lives.
• 16:39
  I Hate Talking: -- So -- maybe the lady who stood up for me experienced sonder, and maybe if I thought about it and reframed it like that, instead of saying that grouchy old Mean lady If I thought, you know what, I don't know.
• 16:54
  I Hate Talking: Maybe she just got back from the hospital and her husband's there.
• 16:57
  I Hate Talking: And her kids aren't talking to her, or something like that.
• 17:02
  I Hate Talking: Like, it's that sounder then?
• 17:04
  I Hate Talking: If I reframed it instead of saying, oh, she's such a grouchy old lady.
• 17:07
  I Hate Talking: Then thinking like, oh, she must, maybe she's going through a really bad thing I don't know about.
• 17:14
  I Hate Talking: Perhaps, but I still think you're saying this from your own perspective, which is not the point.
• 17:21
  I Hate Talking: You have to look at things from other people's perspectives.
• 17:25
  I Hate Talking: You have to realize that other people have to make extremely complex decisions and Go through a variety of challenges and that they perceive that as their own.
• 17:39
  I Hate Talking: Experience as the primary thing that they experience in life and that you're, you, the other person.
• 17:50
  I Hate Talking: are just a blip within that experience.
• 17:54
  I Hate Talking: OK, so that's not a good example then because this old lady left her line to come tell me that I should not let my children be on my phone.
• 18:04
  I Hate Talking: But they were not fighting, they were not running around, they were not yelling.
• 18:08
  I Hate Talking: They were literally sitting in the cart.
• 18:10
  I Hate Talking: Watching TV.
• 18:12
  I Hate Talking: So, this is a bad example, right?
• 18:15
  I Hate Talking: Because I was not inhibiting her life at all, and she entered my life on purpose.
• 18:23
  I Hate Talking: So give me an example of Sonder in your daily life.
• 18:28
  I Hate Talking: So, I think Perhaps where I will experience this most.
• 18:36
  I Hate Talking: is within the driving experience.
• 18:39
  I Hate Talking: I think this also has to do with the fact that in the US, especially, right, or anywhere, you don't really necessarily see cars as personified things within the world.
• 18:52
  I Hate Talking: It's just a vehicle.
• 18:54
  I Hate Talking: But that if you see a person within a vehicle, perhaps that personifies them, or particularly motorcycles because you actually can see the person.
• 19:03
  I Hate Talking: In their riding gear that is.
• 19:09
  I Hate Talking: Going about their business and transporting themselves to and from, is to consider that.
• 19:16
  I Hate Talking: When dealing with traffic or having to get somewhere and being in a rush that these things are not necessarily important to me, but they are important to those people that are doing that.
• 19:31
  I Hate Talking: And on the flip side, likewise, they don't really care that I have somewhere to be.
• 19:36
  I Hate Talking: They just are concerned with where they need to be and that would sort of be.
• 19:40
  I Hate Talking: An experience of sonder because they are living their own complex life and trying to get somewhere quickly.
• 19:47
  I Hate Talking: And I'm doing the same thing, but we are completely unaware of each other because there is zero connection in that particular scenario.
• 19:57
  I Hate Talking: OK, well, going back to the commercial I referenced earlier, I had multiple clips.
• 20:02
  I Hate Talking: Another clip they share is the whole point of the commercial is like, be nice, because you don't know what someone else is going through.
• 20:09
  I Hate Talking: And there's another clip of a car driver.
• 20:13
  I Hate Talking: And the first driver is kind of swerving a little bit, definitely going too slow, like, and the person behind him is just frustrated.
• 20:22
  I Hate Talking: Like, come on, get off the road, what in the world are you doing?
• 20:26
  I Hate Talking: And then it passed, like, goes back in time and it shows that that first driver was at the hospital and his wife just passed.
• 20:34
  I Hate Talking: And so in the car, he's thinking, how am I gonna tell my kids that their mom is gone?
• 20:40
  I Hate Talking: And he's driving home to tell his children this.
• 20:43
  I Hate Talking: So, is that Sonder then that the second driver did not know that his wife was passed and he was going home to tell his children.
• 20:51
  I Hate Talking: The second driver was just going to Starbucks or just going to work or whatever.
• 20:57
  I Hate Talking: Well, perhaps these commercials are getting at the fact that we should experience sonder because it seems like in these examples that the person that is observing these odd happenings, the swerving vehicle or perhaps the Special treat that is given.
• 21:17
  I Hate Talking: does not have the full picture because they are not considering that the fact that that person is living a full and complex life with their own particular decision making and challenges and struggles.
• 21:31
  I Hate Talking: Right.
• 21:32
  I Hate Talking: And again, not trying to go back to me.
• 21:34
  I Hate Talking: I know I'm a Main character of my story, so sorry.
• 21:37
  I Hate Talking: But like, that's what I was getting at before, where that person did not know everything that had previously happened and just judged me in one second.
• 21:46
  I Hate Talking: But did you not judge them in one second as well?
• 21:50
  I Hate Talking: Well, that's my point is that you are not having a sonder because they lost somebody to cell phone usage.
• 22:01
  I Hate Talking: So I, because I Because I still judge this individual that negates my saer.
• 22:09
  I Hate Talking: Do you think that they have a full and complex life and had very conflicted decision making to make that.
• 22:17
  I Hate Talking: Interaction with you.
• 22:19
  I Hate Talking: Maybe, but I still think she's a grouchy old lady.
• 22:23
  I Hate Talking: So that's not Sondra.
• 22:24
  I Hate Talking: You don't realize that they have a full and complex life and that may have been like the hardest decision that they made of the day.
• 22:31
  I Hate Talking: Why am I going to go talk to this mom or am I just going to stay in my lane?
• 22:35
  I Hate Talking: Maybe But why wouldn't they say something when that other lady stood up for me then?
• 22:41
  I Hate Talking: They just went back to their carts.
• 22:43
  I Hate Talking: Right, like if you have like a strong belief, you could tell them, like, no, I know the stats on cell phone use, and I'm just caring for them.
• 22:53
  I Hate Talking: I feel like I'd double down if I really believe that strongly.
• 22:58
  I Hate Talking: I would like try to.
• 22:59
  I Hate Talking: Reiterate why I was doing this, not just walk away.
• 23:03
  I Hate Talking: Right, but you're again reframing that in your own experience and not the other person.
• 23:08
  I Hate Talking: OK, so that's not Sonder, these commercials are sonder.
• 23:12
  I Hate Talking: They're examples of the lack of Sonder.
• 23:15
  I Hate Talking: So when have you experienced Sonder this week?
• 23:18
  I Hate Talking: So, I don't know.
• 23:20
  I Hate Talking: Perhaps there's people out there that their mom is about to die, or perhaps there is somebody that their dishwasher and their stovetop broke in the same week.
• 23:30
  I Hate Talking: Or perhaps they're going through a significant organizational restructure at work or perhaps they have a significant repair that needs to be done to their vehicle.
• 23:41
  I Hate Talking: This all sounds like first person experience.
• 23:44
  I Hate Talking: Oh yeah, that's that's all me.
• 23:46
  I Hate Talking: But yeah, that's not funny to laugh at.
• 23:49
  I Hate Talking: The fact is that other people in the world.
• 23:53
  I Hate Talking: have to deal with those same life experiences, and they may be dealing with those exact same things just as I am, and that's Sonder and I don't know, even looking at all the things that we do within our household, the things that we do for our kids or this podcast or the fact that we take care of chickens and a dog and two cats and We have to let the faucets strip because it's cold outside.
• 24:23
  I Hate Talking: Those are varied things that we deal with in our life that are somewhat routine, but also somewhat complex and perhaps frustrating at times that other people have those exact same things that they have to deal with and maybe they forgot to rip their taps and their pipe burst.
• 24:42
  I Hate Talking: That's sonder.
• 24:43
  I Hate Talking: The realization that other people have.
• 24:46
  I Hate Talking: These extremely deep and complex lives that we ourselves have, but we consider ourselves as the primary and don't consider things that other people are experiencing.
• 24:58
  I Hate Talking: I um had a friend just today text me, side note, and she asked like, hey, tell me what's going on?
• 25:06
  I Hate Talking: And I was like, kind of what your list right there.
• 25:08
  I Hate Talking: I was like, how much do you want to know?
• 25:10
  I Hate Talking: Because I can really start complaining.
• 25:13
  I Hate Talking: So she was very kind to hear me.
• 25:15
  I Hate Talking: List everything out.
• 25:17
  I Hate Talking: Do you ever feel that desire to tell someone, especially a stranger?
• 25:22
  I Hate Talking: Or someone you know, like.
• 25:25
  I Hate Talking: This is what I'm going through, back off.
• 25:28
  I Hate Talking: No, never.
• 25:30
  I Hate Talking: I don't think that has been part of my experience as an introvert.
• 25:34
  I Hate Talking: I will just withdraw.
• 25:36
  I Hate Talking: I don't need to like scare them with the reality of my life.
• 25:41
  I Hate Talking: But do you feel like any need for them to know or justified in like your actions because of X, Y, and Z?
• 25:50
  I Hate Talking: I do not.
• 25:52
  I Hate Talking: Would you feel validated if they knew, or would that not validate you or impact you positively or negatively if someone knew what you're going through?
• 26:07
  I Hate Talking: I suppose some of it maybe is a pride issue where I don't want them to give me any particular grace per se.
• 26:17
  I Hate Talking: Because I still should be able to do what I need to do in life, no matter what.
• 26:21
  I Hate Talking: Interesting.
• 26:23
  I Hate Talking: So for me, I feel like, I mean, I don't have it necessarily, but I feel also like I want to do things well, and if you know how hard things are right now, and I'm doing things well, then like, give me a pat on the back.
• 26:38
  I Hate Talking: No, I do not empathize with that, which I guess is what we're getting at is that empathy is important and perhaps sonder is one way that you can achieve that is worth considering and realizing that all other people have a particular complex life experience.
• 26:57
  I Hate Talking: And perhaps they experience that life in a different way and have different desires such as being validated or being Just left alone.
• 27:10
  I Hate Talking: Would you rather be validated or ignored?
• 27:14
  I Hate Talking: Well, I think that's pretty clear from my previous statements that I would just be rather ignored.
• 27:20
  I Hate Talking: Always in every circumstance.
• 27:23
  I Hate Talking: Nearly every circumstance.
• 27:25
  I Hate Talking: Hm.
• 27:26
  I Hate Talking: Just thinking about it.
• 27:28
  I Hate Talking: You're thinking about it.
• 27:29
  I Hate Talking: So, when I feel the desire to validate you on things, should I not?
• 27:36
  I Hate Talking: And I can just reframe it to validate myself, cause I have that strong desire for validation.
• 27:42
  I Hate Talking: Like, instead of validating you for your hard day work, I can say, Stephanie, your husband had a hard day.
• 27:52
  I Hate Talking: You were so great supporting him.
• 27:55
  I Hate Talking: Good job.
• 27:55
  I Hate Talking: Instead of saying, hon, that was tough.
• 27:59
  I Hate Talking: See, I don't think, I think that.
• 28:01
  I Hate Talking: The A Thing that you're considering Is the Experience the challenge.
• 28:12
  I Hate Talking: I do not want to be validated that I did a good job.
• 28:16
  I Hate Talking: In spite of the challenge, I just want to be validated that I did a good job.
• 28:21
  I Hate Talking: I do not care that it was challenging to do the good job.
• 28:26
  I Hate Talking: Maybe it wasn't challenging to do the good job.
• 28:29
  I Hate Talking: The circumstance is less important to me.
• 28:33
  I Hate Talking: The outcome and the actual results are important to me.
• 28:39
  I Hate Talking: Interesting.
• 28:40
  I Hate Talking: I don't think I agree.
• 28:41
  I Hate Talking: Well, clearly, I think we've already established that.
• 28:46
  I Hate Talking: Yes, I love validation, but no, what I'm saying is, like, as a teacher for our kiddos and stuff, one thing I tell them all the time.
• 28:57
  I Hate Talking: I'm impressed if you get Uh 80 On this, wanna say Nick that's challenging.
• 29:05
  I Hate Talking: So I don't care.
• 29:08
  I Hate Talking: So I think I do disagree.
• 29:10
  I Hate Talking: I don't care.
• 29:12
  I Hate Talking: About the outcome necessarily.
• 29:16
  I Hate Talking: I care that you gave it your best.
• 29:18
  I Hate Talking: You could do the easiest thing possible and do amazing at it.
• 29:24
  I Hate Talking: Or you could really challenge yourself and struggle.
• 29:28
  I Hate Talking: But you completed it, and so you did the hard thing, and I'm proud of you for that.
• 29:33
  I Hate Talking: I suppose so, but in the real world, your best may not be good enough.
• 29:39
  I Hate Talking: Right, but you still were challenged.
• 29:42
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, but maybe you're utter failure at something that you attempted and you didn't achieve the desired outcome.
• 29:51
  I Hate Talking: Just because you did your best and you had an extremely bad outcome does not mean that you deserve validation.
• 30:00
  I Hate Talking: Maybe or you tried your best.
• 30:03
  I Hate Talking: And maybe you're just like, hey, I'm not a good artist, and I really tried on that paint scene.
• 30:10
  I Hate Talking: And it's just not for me.
• 30:13
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, if you learn from that experience and move on and you know that you're not gonna be a famous painter, then yeah, that experience can be for your own benefit.
• 30:24
  I Hate Talking: But if you continually try to paint a masterpiece and you continually fail because you do not have that skill.
• 30:33
  I Hate Talking: And You think that just because you're doing your best.
• 30:38
  I Hate Talking: That that that will be enough.
• 30:39
  I Hate Talking: Perhaps it is not.
• 30:41
  I Hate Talking: Or you don't try at all because you're like, oh, that's too hard.
• 30:44
  I Hate Talking: But I know I'm really good at coding, so I'll take this coding class instead of this painting class, and I'll ace the coding.
• 30:53
  I Hate Talking: Well, there you go, do what you're good at.
• 30:55
  I Hate Talking: I, I think that's a very relevant takeaway.
• 30:59
  I Hate Talking: I disagree.
• 31:01
  I Hate Talking: I think.
• 31:02
  I Hate Talking: You really need to stretch yourself and try and It takes a lot of bravery to do something that you're not good at.
• 31:11
  I Hate Talking: Or it takes a lot of bravery to try something.
• 31:14
  I Hate Talking: It's different or hard.
• 31:17
  I Hate Talking: It's, it's not a lot of bravery to do something that's easy.
• 31:21
  I Hate Talking: That's true, and I'm not discounting the fact that you should not try difficult things, can expand your horizons and gain more skills.
• 31:32
  I Hate Talking: Right I'm pointing specifically at the fact that if you are trying to do something over and over again, failing and just, just saying that it's OK because you're trying your best that that is probably not acceptable.
• 31:47
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I can agree with that, cause I think that hopefully there'd be, even if you are failing, there's still a trend line upward, you're still improving, you're still getting better.
• 31:59
  I Hate Talking: It's not OK to be like stagnant and just be like, oh, I'm Trying, you know, like to try, you actually have to have some kind of a bird at some point, movement.
• 32:13
  I Hate Talking: I would say so.
• 32:14
  I Hate Talking: Or you're just better than the average person and And you can be successful.
• 32:22
  I Hate Talking: I don't, I still.
• 32:23
  I Hate Talking: I still want people to know everything going on in my life, so.
• 32:27
  I Hate Talking: They can be like, oh, that's tough.
• 32:30
  I Hate Talking: Good for you.
• 32:31
  I Hate Talking: Let me give you a hug.
• 32:33
  I Hate Talking: Do you have that same desire to understand that about their other people's lives?
• 32:38
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I think so.
• 32:41
  I Hate Talking: Mostly.
• 32:41
  I Hate Talking: Um, and sometimes in a selfish way, people that seem to have it together, I'm like, tell me your Deepest, darkest secrets, cause I know there's something that you're struggling with.
• 32:53
  I Hate Talking: There's no way you have Life figured out as good as you do, and I want to know about your struggles.
• 33:00
  I Hate Talking: Well, there you go, you realize that people have deep complex lives and their own struggles and that perhaps you want to seek that out so that you can empathize and support them.
• 33:13
  I Hate Talking: So surprised we made it back to that topic because I felt like we're going way off track, but I guess we brought it back, so this is probably a good spot to And our podcast and perhaps consider that there are other people out there ending their podcast right now as well, and they are probably ending with a Request to their listeners to like and subscribe.
• 33:37
  I Hate Talking: That's probably what they're doing in their lives as they live out their lives separate from our lives.
• 33:43
  I Hate Talking: So, from your friends that I hate talking until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.