Latest / Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding / 44. Building Financial Empathy: Why Your Clients' Behaviors Make Perfect Sense with Dr. Michael Thomas

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44. Building Financial Empathy: Why Your Clients' Behaviors Make Perfect Sense with Dr. Michael Thomas · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's helping clients to see the vision, have confidence, and create effective systems that will work for them so they can actually achieve the thing that they hope for that we put on paper.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the win.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: You actually did it.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Not that we theorize that if you do this over 20 years or 30 years, you get to retire.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, we need to address the emotional needs today so that they'll be in a position to experience the things that they hope for later in life.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, hi.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: I should probably introduce myself.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I am joined by my friend, Dr.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Thomas, who is just down the road from me.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And sadly, we don't see enough of each other.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sadly, sadly, sadly.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, I know a little bit about you, but would you mind maybe just taking a minute or two to just share with our listeners who you are, a little bit about maybe the work that you do, some high-level stuff to get a good picture of all the great things, Michael Thomas.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: First and foremost, thank you for having me on.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate the amazing work that you're doing and bridging an important gap, which is actually tethering the art and science of the work that's done in the financial planning world.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that your angle really speaks to the art of it in so many different elegant ways, uh, which is absolutely needed.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of brings me to speaking about myself a little bit here.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have a background in accounting and always knew that I wanted to do financial planning type work.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: But at the time in which I was uh going to school, there weren't CFP board-registered financial planning programs.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And accounting to me at that time provided like this is a sure path towards something.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I come from a background of meager means and being able to provide support, stability, and to be able to help my family as quickly as possible really drove my decisions.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I learned in the accounting space and accounting world was that so much of what we did was uh about the numbers and engaging with the numbers.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And relationships were important if you were a partner, right?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're working the engagement and your partner is with the owner, they're on a golf course and you're working with their people to do their financials, right?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I realized really, really early on professionally and otherwise, was that relationships really mattered to me.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Helping and doing good really mattered to me.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: So although I enjoyed the technical side of accounting, I was missing out on this relational piece because nobody wants to see the auditor when you show it, right?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: People uh no uh no, it's like in biblical times, like the tax collect right.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, it's like the tax collect like no, no one wants to see the auditor.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, nobody wants to see you.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the crazy thing was that people would get hired right before we would come in and do an audit that knew nothing about the company, that couldn't provide us any of the statements or anything, or you'd go back on doors and nobody was there.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I recognized again really early on that that relationships matter, connections matter.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's kind of always propelled the way that I think about my work.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: As I transitioned from the accounting world, I worked in higher education administratively, and then ultimately as an educator at a um year alone research university, which is the University of Georgia, this thread of compassion and empathy and relationships have always been kind of a part of who I am and navigating this journey.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is kind of what's gotten me into the space that I'm in today, which is looking at how we effectively navigate the relational side of money in utilizing various tools, generally speaking, if we think about it from therapeutic methods in a way that we engage with it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we can mitigate emotions, then ultimately we can have greater control over our finances.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's important to me, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about the money, it's about the person, right?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's about the relationship, it's about the dynamics between siblings and parents and grandparents, so on and so forth.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: So money for me is just a conduit that connects to this other piece.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, thank you so much for sharing all of that.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: One, I didn't know that you were in, you started out in accounting.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that is very interesting, which is why I like doing, it's why I like doing kind of the show is that I get to learn some of these little nuggets about some of my favorite people.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that uh I love knowing that context about you.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, obviously coming to know you the way that I do, hearing you talk about that relationships matter and, you know, the realization connection to like all of these threads and the interplay and how it just works, you know, together.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it makes a lot of sense to me in how I've come to know you and the work that you've been doing and putting out there to the world and you know, to your students at UGA as well.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to, you know, kind of dive into more of these threads here.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: You and I kind of know what, you know, I kind of know what you're talking about when we're talking about these threads.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And when we think about this in the financial planning context, you mentioned earlier around this balance of like the art and science.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and certainly there is that balance of art and science.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: There are these threads, this interplay between relationships and numbers, all of these little things that we can kind of pull on and tug and tug on.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's maybe just kind of name a little bit of just kind of what these threads are.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you say kind of threads, like I know what you mean, I kind of explained a little bit about that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: But for advisors, maybe that are listening that are like, oh, this is kind of interesting, but you know, Michael, what are we what are we talking about here?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean or what does that look like?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share with us?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that there are some some elegant threads.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: One that I think is a really big one, especially around this time of the year, uh we talk about needs versus wants with clients.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: If we're thinking about cash flow, projecting cash flow, how we label items within a cash flow statement in terms of where we're spending money, so on and so forth.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if we if we're only thinking about the the science of this, then we're purely thinking about this just from a cash flow perspective, and then whether or not I have a sufficient amount of cash flow to achieve these other objectives that the advisor or planner has set forth for me to achieve a financial goal, right?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Objectively, on paper, optimal, right?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've gone into the software, you've run all the numbers, makes perfect sense, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so completely get it.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you can, and if you're a planner, you can clearly see if you just stick to the goal, we win.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: As long as you don't deviate away from it.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: But that therein lies derb.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: The deviation part is the human element part.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if we only consider and think about a plan without the human element of it, then we're missing a significant portion of the planning process.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: So if I, from my perspective, have a clear understanding and assumptions around what a need and a want is without taking the time to understand how a client perceives a need and a want, I can completely miss the mark.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because what I qualify as a want could objectively, from the outside looking in, be perceived as a want.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: But if there's a strong emotional attachment to that want, then for that client, that's a need.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And if I completely miss that and we go through the process and we say, oh, yeah, we just need to cut this and we need to cut this, and we need to cut this, and you don't understand that I might be self-soothing with this thing.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: This might provide me comfort, this might be the way that I mitigate stress, this might be the way that I've created these adaptive responses to the world around me and how I engage with it.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we tend to do is that if it's just too science-y in the way that we do it, and it's just all about what's financially optimal without thinking about what's optimal for the emotions, for the history of the individual that you're working with, we completely missed a mark.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then what happens is that people don't stick to the plan, people stop showing up, people don't come back.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then we say, or we used to do this, we don't do it as much now because the space is done, the financial planning space is done a lot better in terms of incorporating psychology and things that nature and actually understanding human behavior.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: But this wasn't always the case.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then what we would do is say, well, that there's something wrong with that person.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily there's something wrong with my process, my way of actually engaging and delving into a sincere and genuine understanding of this individual, not just their external workings, but also their internal workings to understand the interaction of these things and how they may impact the work that we do down the line.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to be very, very clear here.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: As someone who navigates this space, I don't think it's enough as a planner advisor to say that, well, we created the plan, we did our job.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that as fiduciaries, we have a greater responsibility to also immerse ourselves in how we can help provide solutions for the execution of the plan based on what we understand about our clients' needs.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think that that's a higher standard of engaging.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what I mean by when we talk about these threads and how you bring in empathy and compassion and therapeutic methods and things that nature, because the end product is not just producing the financial information, but it's helping clients to see the vision, have confidence, and create effective systems that will work for them so that they can actually achieve the thing that they hope for that we put on paper.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the win.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: You actually did it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Not that we theorize that if you do this over 20 years, over 30 years, you get to retire.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, we need to address the emotional needs today so that they'll be in a position to experience the things that they hope for later in life.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where a lot of my work is.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not just the planning, it's not just thinking about the planning side of it, but it's thinking about how do we help clients execute in a world that's constantly changing.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that if we embrace that fully, there is no end to the value add that we provide to the clients that we serve.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Point blank, period.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there is artificial intelligence, it helps us to be more efficient on the science side of it, but navigating the inner workings of people's lives, the trust that comes with that, the private conversations that come with that, that go beyond the plan, that's the story beneath the numbers, that helps mitigate stress, helps provide clarity, helps them to see the light at the end of the tunnel when their brain is set in such a way where it's difficult for them to see it.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: There is significant value added that comes with that.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Even helping families come together to execute on estate planning, right?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people, in my experiences, a lot of people don't balk at it with estate planning because they don't know that they need estate planning.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: They balk at it because estate planning forces very hard conversations that most individuals avoid.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So for me just to say, oh, this person hasn't established a will or trust, it's not that simple.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have to think about who do I give these resources to?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Who do I may have to engage in this efficient and effective transference of something to?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: What if I have a child who is not wise with money and resources, and but we haven't really had the conversation about that?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: We all know it, but like it forces you to actually have very difficult conversations.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So effective estate planning isn't just about the plan.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's how do I help families have the hard conversations and navigate the hard parts about this that has absolutely nothing to do with assets at all.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: It has everything to do with these realities that are relational, that now are manifesting themselves because we're forced to engage with something that in essence we've been putting off.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so we missed a mark if we're not thinking about these relational dynamics and our role in terms of helping to provide value add there for clients as well.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Before we continue, I'm gonna pause for just a second to tell you about something I'm so excited about.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, I know that this is a classic podcast move, right?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: But just stay with me here because if what we've been talking about today resonates with you, this is going to feel really relevant.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a firm owner, if you are an advisor who knows that there's more to financial planning than the numbers, but maybe you're not quite sure how to systematically bring the human side into your practice, I want to tell you about our foundations offering.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is a three-tiered offering that Med Alerts and I created to help advisory firms integrate financial psychology into every area of support.
• 14:43
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• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: We have done-for-you quarterly trainings, bimonthly case consultations, on-call one-on-one client coaching sessions, white label newsletters, client-facing tools, even strategic support that builds your team's confidence over time.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you're ready to transform how you show up for your clients, visit BeyondTheFP.com to reach out to us and start the conversation.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get back to the show.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: What was coming up for me a lot when I was hearing you talk about this, when I was hearing you talk about all this is understanding these threads and understanding who the client is and understanding, you know, the person.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we from a place of empathy become curious to understand who this person is in my background, in the therapy background?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: It just made me think about, you know, from a systems standpoint, you know, this a systemic lens.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do we understand this person, not just from a technical like numbers side that, you know, that you were saying, how do we also understand, you know, you mentioned like their history, their culture, how do we understand their from a gender standpoint, even within the United States, like regionally?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, just how do we understand who this person is from, I might use the word just a greater systemic, taking a systemic lens to understand who they, who they are, how they've come to be.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the technical part is just one piece of that.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the way in which we, if I'm understanding you correctly, or we can, you know, kind of elaborate on a little bit, is in order to understand really who that client is at a human person level, like we do have to bring some empathy and even like curiosity to that approach.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Am I getting that right?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that kind of on the mark here with what you're saying?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And empathy is a very fascinating topic because it's one we're now engaging in a season where we are being more mindful of being empathetic.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: However, in academia, language matters, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And why we use certain words and why that word specifically.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: But what I've realized is that outside of academia, we use language to try to speak our truths or what we're experiencing.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we start to deviate away from what things actually are.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: And when we deviate away from what the actual meaning is of a particular thing, then sometimes it can create resistance, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: To well, I don't, I don't see why I should be empathetic, because a lot of people think that empathy means no boundaries that couldn't be further away from the truth, right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can be empathetic and have boundaries.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Empathy isn't, oh, my client just told me that they they experienced X, Y, and Z.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's it for an engagement, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's nothing else to do.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna try to change behavior.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're not, we're just gonna let them continue to just to be in the space that they're in.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish them well, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's not empathy, right?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Empathy is this notion of having this intimate understanding of someone.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: It really is intimacy at its core when you think about it, because there are three components, generally speaking, of empathy.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now, mind you, with research and in literature, some research only looks at two components, generally speaking, some look at all three.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we have cognitive empathy, which is perspective seeking.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have affective empathy, which is resonating with someone's emotional state.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we have my favorite part of empathy, which is compassionate empathy, meaning that I'm taking action uh in a way that's not causing harm and doing what's in the best interests of that individual.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that means saying that I don't have the capacity to serve you.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's compassion.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's empathy, right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't ever see it that way.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, like Ashley, if if you if you sent me a message about you're in need of something and I want it to help you or whatever it may be, and then the day in which you needed help, I go ghost.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's not very compassionate, is it?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's not at all, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: It causes more harm than good.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens oftentimes is that when individuals navigate this, this, this process of things, they're not realizing the level of integrity that's involved with this, the level of self-work and knowing of self that's important because empathy creates an interaction.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Empathy changes the person being empathetic more than it changes the person that they're being empathetic towards, because you're literally having to go inward to discern and understand and connect your emotional state to someone else's emotional state in a way that she can have this intimate understanding of their situation so that you can respond to their needs with care and compassion and grace.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, if we actually go to an amusement park and you tell me that you're afraid of hypes, it doesn't mean that we can't go to the amusement park.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: It means that we can go, but I'm not gonna suggest that you get on this ride that has this huge drop.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: We can still go have a good time, we can have a fun time.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: It does not prevent us from going.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: It just means that if we're in that setting, I'm going to ensure that I recommend and do things that allow for you to have the fulfillment and joy of an amusement park, but I'm not gonna nudge you to do things that are outside of your comfort zone that would prevent you from ever wanting to come back again and to experience this moment.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, if you go out to a bar with a friend and you know that they don't drink, you're not going to say, hey, yeah, two rounds of X, Y, and Z from our friend or whatever it may be.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna do that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that you can't go to the bar and have a good time and have fun, right?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And enjoy is because you have an intimate understanding of the person that you're dealing with, does not exclude us from the experience.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: It just means that how we engage in the experience is gonna be different based on that understanding.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: We know this from the financial planning standpoint.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Risk.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody can be risk averse.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that you can't invest.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: It just means that we have to find the right investment relative to your risk tolerance level.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Conceptually, I think that we get these things.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: What happens though, oftentimes with empathy is that our own world view interacts with how we perceive an individual's circumstances, how we perceive an individual's emotions.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can be apathetic towards someone because we don't get it or we don't understand it.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it absolves us from having to establish any level of intimacy.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you just need to pull your yourself up by your bootstraps or whatever it may be.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: You need to get over it and move on, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that happens.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the reason why empathy has been such a big part of the work that I've done is because I know that empathy isn't this, you can't empathy isn't this broad swath of I'm empathetic towards everything, which is why I did the TED Talk on financial empathy, because empathy in itself isn't a new construct.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: But we were not being empathetic towards the financial circumstance of individuals.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: We were actually being apathetic.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: For as an industry for a very long time.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning that I don't care about your situation, I don't care about your circumstances.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the plan.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do it.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't do it, there's something wrong with you.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not on us.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So when I did the financial empathy TED Talk, the reason why I did it was that I wanted to bring in the domain of personal finances and basically say we need to be empathetic in this space too.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's context, there's nuance, there's systems dynamics that we need to be mindful of.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: That may be the reason why individuals aren't engaging with the space and profession like we want them to, aren't working towards their goals consistently like we want them to, so on and so forth.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we could frame it in that way, then my hope is that it would bring people towards the light, so to speak, and start to say, hey, let me slow down and let me step out of my worldview, take a deep breath, take some time to do something that takes courage, because empathy is a courageous act or engaging empathetically is a courageous.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a soft skill, it's a very hard skill.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: It can be developed.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: The issue, though, is that just like your client has inner working systems that create stress that can be triggering, you do too.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when we begin to be empathetic, we then have to start dealing with our stuff that we don't have to deal with when we aren't empathetic.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Then therein is a dissonance.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, where this is beautiful is that if we want our clients to deal with their dissonance and not avoid it, it would be incredibly hypocritical for us to say that, oh, I don't have to deal with my dissonance.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe because I'm in a position or I have status and no one will ever know because it's never going to unearth itself.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that thread of why that's important is because it's not just about the client, it's also about the provider.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if we understand that interaction of that dynamic, we become better providers, we become better servers, we become better professionals.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then we also create spaces of trust, intimacy, care with effective boundaries that we can create an environment where we can effectively serve people and actually feel like we're moving the needle and do more good than just executing the plan.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe our empathetic approach helps a client actually be more empathetic with their spouse.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And because they're being more empathetic with their spouse, because you're modeling something and you're wanting to know them and be intimate with them, encourages financial intimacy in that relationship.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Guess what?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: We may have saved off divorce, which is actually a more significant risk to any financial plan, given that roughly 50% of households end in divorce, which can create a tumultuous effect on all this great work that we've done over the years just to end in this very messy thing.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's a downstream effect of just actually modeling something and helping people deal with hard conversations in a compassionate way that has far-reaching effects in a way that people show up for themselves, for their families, for their communities as well.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we have that level of impact, especially around money, which is often considered to be a taboo subject.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm ranting here, Ashley.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that that I hope that that makes sense.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, Michael, I'm just gonna, you can just keep ranting.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just keep going, rant to it, rant because I'm like sitting here.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, for those that are listening on, you know, maybe Spotify Apple Podcasts, you can't see Michael and I.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: But if you could see Michael and I, or me, you would see me nodding my head like, you know, I want to throw my hands up and just kind of say, like, preach, like just yes, keep preaching.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the yes, yes, yes.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: So much like nonverbal validation over here, you know, on my side is going on.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about, you know, these threads that we're talking about, pulling on just how do we show empathy as an advisor to understand like who this person is.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think about sometimes what can be difficult.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I've worked with some clients like this with the advisors when the client is culturally, maybe even racially different.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: As an example, uh, was working with a firm and a client, and they are in Canada.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: The the couple is in Canada, but their parents immigrated from Nigeria.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's some cultural context there that around understanding money, money dynamics that played a big role into their financial plan, also around like their negotiables, like what they were willing to do or not do there.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes that can be difficult for anyone, but particularly, you know, in this context of advisors trying to help clients who may be from a different background.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you've written a fantastic book.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, kind of through your writing, through through your work, your book, Black Financial Culture, like how can advisors maybe use empathy or some other skills?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how can we use all of this to understand clients where there might be some cultural differences or even certainly like racial differences too that might play into that?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: How can advisors lean into or what skills would you suggest or offer there?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or thread threads, maybe what threads should they pull on?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's a better what threads should they pull on, Michael?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think I think one of the big things with being empathetic is understanding that once you get to compassion, empathy, I think it's very important to just tie that into being a fiduciary because a fiduciary means doing what's in the best interests of the client and serving the client based on the context and needs and things of that nature.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's already embedded in the work that we do.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that we have to see it that way.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So cultural context should not be a factor that limits us from being a fiduciary.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it should actually provide us the tools to be even more fiduciary of the work that we do, right?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there could be cultural, it could be faith in religious-based things, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're a person of faith, that's a great one.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: You you understand that that maybe tithing is important to the client.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: You understand that maybe vice investments may not be something that they want to see incorporated in their portfolio in terms of the investments are being held.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Intuitively, know that we know that because we we navigated and it's a shared experience.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not something that I have to dig deep to begin to understand, which makes it easy, but contextually, you understand that there are people with different backgrounds that may have some unique needs and we effectively address those needs.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: There could be a family that has a child who has disabilities, significant disabilities, and you're planning for that family.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Not typical, atypical in the way that you would traditionally plan for clients, but there are some nuances and differences.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, based on those needs, we're going to be thinking about different things that we add into the planning process to effectively serve that family, right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think intuitively we get that.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: We understand it.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: We know it.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's important to understand about culture is not to look at it as it being so far different than other domains that we navigate where we just have to pivot slightly in order to make an effective plan.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Culture actually should be something that we ingratiate into the planning process so that we better understand how do we communicate to a client.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like you're your spouse or your significant other.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: They might have a separate love language as you.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you completely avoid having a conversation around love language and just say that, you know what, physical touch works for me?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna work for you as well, right?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, we're probably gonna do some stuff to understand our person's needs, whether it's words of affirmation and more of it, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: How is that different from culture?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that I'm dealing with someone who is not me, and I have to understand them to effectively serve them.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: I get why culture can be such a taboo thing because there's a lot of weight historically and otherwise within our culture around race and other things.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, that undermines our ability just to see how connected we are, as a right, like we're more closely aligned than most people think.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: There was somebody who posted something the other day on social media around Thanksgiving, was it was talking about how white people put raisins in their potato salad or something like that.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And every white person on that thread was like, I've never seen a white person put raisins in their potato salad.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are we talking about?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we don't do that, right?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's interesting is that if we don't allow for proximity and to get close to people and their experiences, then we allow for these things to fester that create emotional distance and otherwise to view something as being distant, as being other, as opposed to something that we're actually probably more familiar with than we actually are.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can deviate and curate a plan for someone who doesn't have a similar experience as I do in other domains, then how is culture any different?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a we just receive enough inputs and information to know how we best serve this client as a fiduciary.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something to be afraid of, it's not something that consider is this completely other thing.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually something that just makes us better with the work that we do.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's why empathy is so powerful and effective because it creates a paradigm for us to navigate the way that we engage with our clients so that we're we're not missing out on these nuggets of significance and importance to our clients, so that they leave feeling seen and heard.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: One of the acronyms that I like to use comes from the research in medical field and empathy, which is called nurse.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I teach the nurse model, yeah.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: To me, it just it's just so incredibly practical.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we name, understand, respect, support, and explore.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so by just literally having a method in which you engage with individuals that naturally encourages an empathetic disposition and a way of knowing and being, then after some time, it just becomes a part of what you do.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if you give it enough time, what you're gonna find is that it creates a competitive advantage because you start to unpack and you start to pull threads and you start to engage in an emotional connection with your client, that they're not going to experience it other firms as they're doing their typical onboarding process that lacks a compassionate tone and an empathetic process.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it has a direct impact on your bottom line, both now and then also once the client has been on boarded with you, because they're gonna be far less likely to leave you, even if they hear that someone else yielded higher returns than they did that particular year.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna come to you because empathy empirically has proven that it cultivates a level, a high level of trust.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's a gap between where I am or where I'm perceiving I should be based on other information, those individuals, because of high level of trust, aren't going to fill that gap with doubt.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're actually gonna come to you and actually seek clarity as opposed to going to see the other person's guy or gal and then under.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: So this is both a short-term and long-term direct impact on bottom line, as well as cultivating and establishing amazing and meaningful relationships in the lives of the people that you serve.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I shockingly, you know, don't disagree with anything right here.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: That that you're saying.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess where I'm in trying to bring kind of our threads together and maybe tie a nice, pretty bow on is that really I feel like this conversation, what I'm taking away from it is that empathy is really this foundation.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's a skill, certainly, it's a foundation, this approach, and it can be developed, right?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it really is truly foundational, right?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: For being able to not only just do financial planning effectively from a you know ethical, fiduciary, right place, but also in helping to understand who your client is on a human level, whether that's, you know, in all of the domains, right?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Relationally, culturally, spiritually, helping to understand all of that is this skill of empathy, being able to do it, embody it, practice it, it really is transformative.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's foundational.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's at the center of being a financial planner.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And to kind of bring it back to you where you were going earlier is the direct correlation between that and the book with the thread and culture and things that nature.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: The reason why I entitled the book Black Financial Culture was very intentional.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that the title in and of itself wouldn't have mass appeal because it's it could be a little bit of a triggering title, especially in the world that we navigate today, unfortunately.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: But the reason why I entitled it was because the word black can mean a number of different things.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, black could be being in the black financially as opposed to being in a red, right?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: So black financial culture.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Can we establish a culture of being ahead and not being behind?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Black as a color absorbs all rays of light, which creates warmth.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this notion of black culture is this notion of bringing in all rays of light and creating this texture of warmth in the way that you engage with the reading in the book.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Black also means sophistication, elegant in design.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: That was a goal of the book.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then lastly, black can represent cultural references from black experiences.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And my hope in writing the book was that someone would experience some dissonance in terms of, hmm, I wonder where this is gonna go.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: But in reading it, find a sense of connection, find a sense of warmth, find a sense of shared experience in someone that you perceive to be other, but no, I have these experiences too.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: So black isn't this notion of otherness, it's this collective woven thread of togetheredness.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so the notion here was to take a word, a language which could be taboo that would create dissonance.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: But if someone were to engage in their own dissonance to actually kind of leave it feeling that I feel more connected to something that I didn't think I would ever feel connected to.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if you did that and you left it, the question, the follow-up question I would want you to ask is what else am I missing out on?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I didn't give it a chance because of how it looked, how it perceived it, or how language was presented.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this notion of kind of changing narrative.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so kind of gets that thread of that connective tissue and why it's important to engage with certain things.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's some hard conversations, but it's a very balanced, utilize a very balanced approach in terms of having a conversation.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't necessarily move far right or far left or whatever it may be, but it does talk about forgiveness of race relations.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: I approach from a Black perspective and lens, I broach conversation about the compounding effect of social injustices.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: If we understand the long-term implications of compounding good, then it shouldn't be too far-fetched to understand the implications of compounding bad.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if I know that I'm navigating something that I'm dealing with compounding bad, even with small efforts, it's hard to fight against the currents of compounding of something over time.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: As planners and advisors, intuitively we understand and we know that.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if we see it in one way, we then also have to be able to at least have an honest conversation, be able to see the implications in another way.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: That being said, it doesn't mean that the black community is absolved from the agency and doing all these other things.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I have that conversation in the book as well.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it is, it's kind of like this thing where it's like nobody's gonna be happy with me wherever I go with this.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's perfectly okay because the whole point was to have integrity in a conversation that was able to have hard conversations with compassion, care, and grace.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And what you choose to do with it moving forward, that is your choice.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I respect it.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's the world that I want to live in.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, this was art, this was beauty.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's art on paper in the way that I engage with it.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: But hopefully it provides this framework of something that kind of helps you navigate empathy and compassion almost like a case study if you're engaging with it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Even though you don't know that that's happening, it's actually happening.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the beauty of everything that we've been talking about here.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and you know, I guess what's funny is hearing you talk about the black and the warmth piece.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that I picked up on that.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: I loved that you said that.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And funny enough, I remember I read this book on our beach vacation on the beach.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like hearing that now, I'm like, oh, just like how perfect was, you know, like, you know, kind of it was that.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess, Michael, what I would like to maybe just kind of end with saying, at least here, you know, about the book one, it's beautifully written.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it is a fantastic read and a must, a must read as well.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what I would like to say to you, but also to the audience, is that Michael's book, Black Financial Culture, it really, truly is a beautiful model of empathy, the way in which it's written, the conversations and the points, like it really, truly is a model of what empathy can look like uh in terms of how do we understand who our client is, no matter what walk of life they come from, what background they come in, no matter the things.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, thank you, one, for putting that out there and for writing it.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: And well, Michael, sadly, as our time wraps up here, um would you mind maybe just sharing with our audience, those that are listening, if they want more Michael Thomas in their life, where can they find you?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Where can they connect with you?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to connect with me, connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can find me Dr.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Michael Thomas, uh, and you can put in UGA as well, and I should pop up.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're interested in learning a little bit more about the book that we're talking about, uh, you can go to www.blackfinancialculture.com uh to learn a little bit more about it.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do, I would absolutely to love to hear from you and and how you experience it.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the the beauty of it.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's again, we're we're bringing our own paradigms to something, and no one person should experience it the same way.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so if you do get a chance to read the book and you're you're willing to want to reach out and have a conversation, I would love to have a conversation because it's it's it literally is this canvas of art that my hope is that you walk away from it in a way that's unique and authentic to you through this shared experience, which is my personal journey, navigating black culture as a black person and not presenting it as a monolith of an experience either.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would love to have a conversation with you.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, Michael, for sharing that and being so brave and vulnerable too, for putting that out there and coming on today and sharing all of your wisdom, all of your greatness, all of your fantastic little nuggets and takeaways.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you to you who are listening right now to this conversation.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for tuning in today to learn a little bit about Michael, to learn about his work, and to learn a little bit, maybe even about yourself.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for allowing us to be a part of your week.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation resonated with you, I would love to keep the connection going.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me on LinkedIn as well as Michael, uh, where both of us share insights on the human side of planning and how to understand just your human clients more fully, more completely.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want even more, Ashley Kwame, if you want even more beyond the plan, if you want to be able to stay updated on when new episodes drop, you can subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, Apple, Spotify, all the places, all the things.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can also subscribe to our monthly newsletter where we provide show updates, exclusive resources, and practical strategies for your practice.
• 43:01
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• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: And make sure, again, just to reiterate, make sure you follow the show so you don't ever miss future conversations like this one.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, my friends, remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 43:29
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• 43:35
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• 43:41
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• 43:46
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• 44:12
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