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Is Fostering a Dog Right for Me? A Foster's Honest Answer · The Animal Advocate

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If you ever thought about fostering an animal and then talked yourself out of it,
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there's a good chance that one of your reasons was that you thought you'd get
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too attached, that it would just break your heart to give them up.
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It's understandable, but my guest today turns that argument
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around in a way that never occurred to me before. And once
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she said it, it completely changed what I thought when I
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heard I'd get too attached.
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Welcome to The Animal Advocate, where we arm animal lovers
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with the information and inspiration you need to become effective
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advocates. I'm your host, Penny Ellison, and I've taught
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animal law and advocacy at the University of Pennsylvania since
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2006. If you've ever thought someone
0:47
should do something about that, I'm here to guide you on your
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journey to being that someone. You can find us on the
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web at animaladvocacyacademy.org.
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And that's where you'll find show notes and resources, and you can send
1:03
us your comments on episodes and ideas for topics you'd like to hear
1:07
on future shows. So, on to today's
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topic.
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Kelly Mauter fosters dogs and hosts The Foster Files,
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a podcast about animal rescue and welfare. She also has a
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background in sales, which turns out to be surprisingly useful in fostering.
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Dogs need marketing too, especially foster dogs who
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aren't sitting in a shelter where potential adopters can see them.
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Kelly and I talk about what fostering really asks of you, what it
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doesn't, and something that I don't think prospective fosters hear
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often enough. You're not just trying to get approved by a rescue.
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You should be interviewing the rescue too, 'cause you're a hot
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commodity. We talk about how to tell a well-run rescue
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from one that's likely to leave you on your own, what to ask before you
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agree to foster, and why one bad experience doesn't
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mean fostering isn't for you. And if you're on the rescue
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side, we get into the other half of the equation. How do you
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get more people to say yes to fostering? If
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you've been thinking about fostering but haven't quite gotten there, this
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conversation may change how you think about it. Here's my
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conversation with Kelly, with a guest appearance by my dog Kona.
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Welcome, Kelly Motter, to The Animal Advocate. Thank you so much
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for having me. I'm so glad we finally had an opportunity to nail this down.
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I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited too, because
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I think there are a lot of people out there that
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think about fostering, that could foster, but they have a lot of
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questions and they have a lot of trepidation about
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what it might mean. So I think that's what I want to focus on, at
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least in the beginning with you, is to, to tell us how you got
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involved in fostering. Um, I guess just let's start there.
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So I have kind of always had it in the back of my
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mind that I might want to foster. Um,
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and actually it even goes beyond just animals in, in
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kind of the process of figuring out that I was going to be a childfree
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by choice person. I thought about— I never, to me, in
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potentially having kids, it never felt like I needed to have my own
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children biologically. So I've even thought about, you know, fostering and
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adopting children. So that's kind of always been something that's sort of been in the
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back of my mind. But, um, for about 8 years, my husband and I, we
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had 5 resident dogs. And fostering in that
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capacity just is— feels very impossible. It was
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always kind of maintaining the balance of the pack to begin with. I mean, nobody
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was aggressive towards anybody, but it's 5 very different personalities that you're trying to
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make sure everybody's copacetic. And then we lost a couple of our
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dogs in 2022, and then we lost
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others in 2024. And it just really felt like the
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house really felt empty. Mm-hmm. Like it was so quiet.
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Like even going from 5 dogs to 4, you're like, oh my God, it's so
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quiet in here. And so I really just, um, you know, being
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on social media perpetually, for better or for worse, I
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was getting a lot of, you know, this dog is going to be put
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down, and this dog needs a foster, and this dog needs adopted.
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And so it just really felt like it was time. We have the space
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and we have the setup in our home. We have the flexibility of
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our schedules. We are childfree, so we don't have that,
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you know, kind of that extra added schedule, you know,
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demand of children that for us would be a little bit of a challenge.
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So I just said to Michael, I was like, hey, how do you feel about
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fostering? I really want to give it a shot and see how it goes. And
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fortunately he said yes, and we haven't really looked back. It's been,
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it's been quite the journey for sure. And, and what are some
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of the highlights and what are some of the lessons learned that you'd like to
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share with people? So for sure, the
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highlight is the same with every single dog. Every
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single dog that has come in here has a level
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of trepidation or a level of fear. I mean, it's very rare.
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It's very— I mean, only I feel like if you're getting a brand new puppy,
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like a super, super young puppy, do you get a dog that
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doesn't have something going on. So whether it's
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they're scared of new people or they're scared of this environment or they're,
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you know, potentially a really big flight risk or whatever Whatever that is, there's always
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something. And when you watch these
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dogs come out of their shells and start to like
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play and start to get comfortable and start to meet
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new people and start to play with you and start to play with your dogs,
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it is like— I mean, that feeling, that rewarding
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feeling is like— I can't describe it. Just
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knowing that you have provided them a safe space where they
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can be themselves and they can just be a dog is just like,
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I mean, my God. That first tail wag he's saying. Oh my
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God, it's, it's, it's— I, I'll tell you one very quick story.
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We had a dog that came in that was not doing well in his current
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foster. He's a super high-energy dog and he's a little bit
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on the bigger side. And I mean, I'm talking like boxer energy
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bouncing off of walls. So his foster at the time said, this—
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we are not the best fit for this dog, we really need help. We had
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just gotten rid of our foster— not gotten rid of, excuse me, adopted out our
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foster a week prior. And I said, you know what, we're in a good place,
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we can take him. And plus, we have a big fenced-in yard. We're an
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active family. We can, we can take him. And when
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he first came into my kitchen, I mean, he was
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tail tucked, ears flat. He was terrified. I mean, he watched his
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other foster pull out like, what is happening? And so I just sat on the
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kitchen floor with him. And I think I sat there for about half an hour.
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And then there's a picture of it. He finally literally just collapsed his
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whole head and body into me, and I just started crying. I was like, oh
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my God, this dog just needs to feel safe and loved. And now he is
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in the best home with equally as energetic as a dog that
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at the meet and greet they were playing for like an hour. So that's what
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I was going to say is like the second most rewarding thing is like
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putting them in these perfect homes where you just watch, then get to
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continue through pictures and videos and social media posts,
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continue to see them thrive. It's like, oh, it's just
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amazing. It's incredible. And you gave him that ticket
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to a second chance. But I think that the inverse of
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that is the objection that I always hear is how
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I'm going to feel when I have to hand that dog off to somebody else.
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What if I'm attached and it breaks my heart? Right. It's
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so funny because in the last, specifically the
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last year, because I've been doing this podcast for, you know,
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like 50, I think I have 54 episodes now. So a little over a year.
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And really, in this last year, I have really analyzed that
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statement, and it's now getting to the point where I kind
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of take issue with it. And the reason that I say that is
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because if we can really kind of dissect what that person is saying—
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and, and they don't mean it, and I don't think they think about it this
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deeply— but really what they're saying is, I am so
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unwilling to miss this dog that I'm
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okay with it potentially otherwise being euthanized. And I
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know that that sounds very harsh and that sounds very critical, but
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ultimately, at the end of the day, that's the deal that someone is making when
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they have that as their only objection to fostering. There are many
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other reasons why fostering is not going to work for certain individuals and
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certain families, and, and I could lay all of those out.
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But to say that the only reason that you wouldn't foster this dog
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temporarily is because you don't want to see it go to another home, then
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you're kind of just turning a blind eye to the fact that somewhere around
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400,000 dogs are potentially going to
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be euthanized in 2026. And that's the reality of the
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shelter situation in the United States. And unfortunately, I
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think the number might actually be up over 2025 when we actually look at the
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data because of the way that the cost of living has changed and inflation has
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changed disposable income for so many people. So I really
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challenge people to think about what they really are saying when
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that's the reason that they're telling themselves that they can't foster, because it's so
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much bigger than just that moment of, you know,
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some discomfort that you might have in this animal is now
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going somewhere else. I also would say that
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saying that to fosters, it kind of cuts us a little
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bit. And it does sound harsh, but what you're telling
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them is you have to put something else in the forefront of your mind. It
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can't be you and your feelings. It has to be the animal.
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Right, but what I mean is that, like, I think when people say, oh, I
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could never give them up, I would just love them too much, is a kind
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of a soft implication that maybe we don't love them. Oh, I see what
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you mean. And so, right, and so, like, what I'm saying is
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that, that idea that we can foster because we
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somehow don't love them as much as you potentially would is so
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not even close to reality. We love every
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single foster that comes into our house, and some are easier to say goodbye to
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because of different things and different behaviors or whatever, don't get
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me wrong, but we love every single dog that comes into
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our home. And you know what? That sounds exactly like— because the other thing
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we need people to do with, as you point out, more and more animals getting
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surrendered to shelters because of economic reasons, because of housing
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reasons, we need more and more people to want to volunteer in shelters.
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And I think the same sentiment comes out to say, well, I couldn't
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volunteer because it would break my heart. And we have
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to just, I guess, start thinking about the animals. And also, like,
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I think when you do volunteer, 90% of the time it makes you feel
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great. Even if you, you know, if there are 100 dogs in the
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kennel tonight and you took out 5, you can say, well, I made those
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5 have a much better night than they otherwise would have. And, you know, that's
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where your focus has to be. Right. And also too,
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and I talk about this a lot on the podcast, is
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Volunteering doesn't necessarily mean being in the shelter every
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day. I encourage people that are, you know,
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like you, for example, you are an attorney and you
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might have, you know, in the past been like, how do I have a skill
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that is associated with animal rescue and welfare? Where clearly you have a
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massive skill set to help out in that space. You know, my
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background is in sales. What is my
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skill set? Well, my skill set is communication, right? Like, I
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love talking to people, and I love— so that's part of the reason I started
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the podcast. And also, you know, I've had dogs my entire life, and I feel
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like I have a skill set of making dogs feel safe
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and getting them to the point where they can be, you know, adopted out. But
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maybe someone's skill set is in data. Maybe someone's skill set is
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in social media management. Maybe someone's skill set is just that they like to
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do chores. Some people just like to clean. My little sister is like that. God
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bless her OCD. every time I see her, my car is cleaner than before I
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saw her. So, you know, it's— maybe that's your skill set. And
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so maybe you take your skill set and you take your interests, and you're not
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doing direct one-on-one, you know, seeing these dogs in a
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shelter. Maybe you're contributing in a different way. Maybe you're a great
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fundraiser, you know. Maybe, you know, I think that there's
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just other ways that you can look at it where, you know, you can
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really kind of take that surface-level objection
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and kind of reach past it just a little bit to find a way that
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you can still contribute to the, you know, ultimately the massive problem we
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have in the United States. 100%. And I, I
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did an episode on all the different ways that you can volunteer
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other than walking dogs, so I'll drop a link to that in the show notes.
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But you've also mentioned your, your podcast, and I want to put a link to
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that in the show notes, and that's called The Foster Files. And, uh, tell
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me what motivated you to start that.
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So when I told my friends, I'll never forget, I was at
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like a, um, we have a friend that homebrews beer and he
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had like a beer event where he was like doing tastings. And I was saying
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to my friends, guys, you know, I've decided I'm gonna foster dogs. And everybody goes
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like, okay, we know that makes sense to us.
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It sounds like a natural progression for you. We're not surprised.
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You're going to be amazing. So it was just so funny how, like, not
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surprised they were by that, because in your mind you're, like, making this big
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decision and then your friends are like, yeah, that, that tracks. So
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then kind of in the fostering and in talking about
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what I've been learning and what I've been doing as a foster, you know, I
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had one friend in particular, my friend Morgan. He said, you got to
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find a way to scale that. He's like, you're so passionate about
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it and you're so articulate in speaking about it.
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You got to, you got to find a way to do more with that. And
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so I kind of just sat with that for a little bit, and I was
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like, what does that even look like? I'm not sure what that looks like. And
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then I said, well, wait a minute, there's no gatekeeping in podcasting. You
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can literally just get a mic on Facebook Marketplace, which is what
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I did. You can Google how to do things, which is what I did. And
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then you can post stuff, which is what I did. And so
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for me, it was just a way to say I'm passionate about
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educating about animal welfare in general, because the
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The subtitle to my podcast is Stories About Animal Rescue and Welfare.
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And so I don't just talk about fostering. I don't just talk
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about dogs and companion animals. I talk about animal rescue and
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welfare in general. And it's just, I am a very naturally curious
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person. So I really like learning about all these things that I didn't know about,
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even the things that make me uncomfortable. And so I
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just really found that this was a way for me to take that energy of
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wanting to talk to everybody and kind of making sure that my friends don't have
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to hear it all the time. Well, I can identify
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with that. Yes. Right. I bet you're— I'm thinking about what you
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said about, well, you're good at sales, you're good at like sales and marketing, which
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sounds like a great thing you could teach other people, whether they're fostering
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or volunteering. Like, you know, animals need good marketing
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people. So have you found that those skills come into play as
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a foster parent and as somebody who advises people?
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Absolutely. I think writing a great description and even just
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posting the right videos on social media, I mean, I have of people
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that are interested in a dog and then they see my Instagram handle where I
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say, hey, for more videos of this dog, you know, find my Instagram.
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I've had people go, oh my gosh, I fell in love with this dog via
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the videos and via the pictures that you put up. So yeah, absolutely. I
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think to say that dogs don't need marketing, I think would be
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kind of really naive. And so I have found that
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to be a really, a really good thing. But I will say
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that It also is wildly important
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for— and I think shelters know this and rescues know this, and I think
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it's important for fosters to learn this— that when you are
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talking to a specific individual about a specific animal, that you are
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giving them the good and the bad, and you are letting them know,
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hey, these— you know, the foster that I have behind me right now,
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she's not housebroken yet. It would be a real
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disservice To not disclose that to a potential
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adopter, right? Because if I don't disclose that and then she does have an accident
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in the house, which she's probably gonna do, that's all the more
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reason for them to say, well, this isn't what I expected it to be. I'd
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like to return that dog. For, for sure. Because, you know, that has a
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couple of negative effects, which is, you know, of course that, that dog might
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come back to you or back to the shelter, which, you know, the dog's
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already been through a lot of trauma. So that's sort of more trauma. And it
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also might turn those people off from adopting. They might say,
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well, you know, the dogs you get from shelters and rescues, you know, they have
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issues. I'm gonna buy from a breeder. Right. Which is so wild
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to me because there's a multitude of issues that you can get from a
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breeder. And for those who are listening, I'm using air quotes super
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intentionally because, you know, I think most of what we see
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online, while it can look legitimate and it can look
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Like a quote-unquote really nice, great facility,
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um, it's backyard breeding. It's contributing to the crisis. A
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lot of these dogs aren't coming health tested, um,
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with genetic testing, and it's, it's really kind of just contributing to the
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problem. And there's no such thing as a perfect dog. I mean, there's a reason
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that some of these purebred dogs, well-bred dogs, you know, fail
17:51
being service dogs, because they're sentient beings. They have their own
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personalities. So this idea that you're going to get a dog, you know, perfect puppy
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just because it's quote unquote from a breeder and doesn't quote unquote have any
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trauma. It's just, I don't know, I think it's just not,
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like I said, naive. You know, there's no such thing
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as a perfect puppy. You're going to have to put in the time. You're going
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to have to hope that this puppy and this animal has
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some great personality traits and some great things and not any known
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issues. But then also you're going to have to put in the work. And is
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that some of what you tell people who say, well, yeah,
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I want to adopt, but I really want a specific breed
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puppy and there aren't any? What do you say to people like that?
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Oh, I literally just pull up Petfinder and I just Google the breed.
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And I would say that a lot of people— not a lot, I can't really
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speak for everybody, but in my experience, people who are looking for a
18:50
specific breed, what they're really looking for is
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this Yes, yes, yes. That, that is
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what we need to tell people to focus on. If you're thinking, right, you need
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a dog that'll be good with your kids. Yeah, go ahead. Right. And so it's
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so funny to me because there's no breeder
19:06
that is going to have the amount of information on the temperament of a
19:10
dog that its foster does. Like, I know
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all the ins and outs of this dog that is barking and
19:18
wreaking havoc behind me. I'm with her every day. She has my
19:21
focused attention. I can tell you up and down How this
19:25
dog is gonna act. Um, and I, I just— breeders
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just don't have that. One, they don't have the time. These are babies, they're puppies,
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so they don't have it really developed, their personality. And usually there's like a litter,
19:36
and then there's the mom they have to— and then what, you know, whatever that
19:39
situation is. So if you are looking for appropriate temperament,
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um, I would say maybe not a shelter-specific
19:47
rescue, right? Because dogs act different in the shelter, and shelter workers are stretched
19:51
thin as it is. But find a shelter that works
19:54
with fosters or find a foster-based rescue.
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And we get those requests at the rescue I work with all the time.
20:02
We're looking for a dog that is approximately this and is good with kids and
20:06
is good with a cat and, you know, acts like this or whatever. And
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we put out an APB in the chat that says, hey, does anybody's
20:13
fosters meet this criteria? And then we literally will help the person
20:17
select the dog. I mean, where are you getting that? From a
20:21
breeder. So it's really an opportunity in the foster system. You
20:24
know, the 2, I think the 2 most important contributions that
20:28
fosters make to the animal welfare system is, of course, number one, they
20:32
expand capacity. So, you know, you have a lot more spots
20:36
for animals. And 2,
20:40
what you just said is they supply that information of
20:43
what is this dog like in a home. So if you are a person who
20:47
has a child who has a cat,
20:51
you can go to a foster-based rescue and say, who do you have that's living
20:54
with a child and a cat? And they'll usually have one. Yeah,
20:58
absolutely. I mean, we've— I've had a scenario in which I
21:02
had a meet and greet come to the house to meet my foster, and
21:05
I've told this story before, and she— it was not a good fit.
21:09
And I could tell this person was not going to thrive with this dog, and
21:13
this dog was not going to thrive with this person. Now, mind you, She was
21:16
a great applicant. It was clear she loved her previous dogs.
21:20
It was clear she had an incredible property. All those things were clear to me,
21:24
but it was not the right fit for this dog. And I
21:28
told her that. I said, I just— I do not see this being a
21:31
successful placement. I want to connect you with the rescue
21:36
and put you in touch with a dog that's going to be a much better
21:38
fit for you. And luckily, she did end up adopting from our
21:41
organization. I think that's— that might be one of the things that would scare off
21:44
fosters is to say, What if I meet someone who I don't think is a
21:47
good fit? The organization that I work with, they'll say, if
21:51
you feel like it's not a good fit, you just tell them, okay, the rescue
21:55
will be in touch and then we'll let them know. So, you know, if you're,
21:58
you're concerned about fostering and, and what that looks like, just ask the
22:02
organization outright, what if I have somebody that's not a good fit? How,
22:06
how is that going to be handled? Is it going to be handled by me
22:09
or is it going to be handled by the rescue? And find a rescue that's
22:11
going to handle it for you. That is a good question because I was thinking
22:15
that maybe the best thing to leave people with is advice for potential
22:19
fosters, but also advice for rescues.
22:23
Because I mean, I saw as of 2 hours ago a local rescue for senior
22:26
animals saying, we are just being inundated with requests to take
22:30
animals, but we can't take any more until more fosters step up. Right.
22:34
So I guess what advice would you give rescues to try to
22:37
recruit
22:42
Oh, that's a tough one. Um, because in the, in the 2
22:46
years I've been fostering, I've recruited one foster.
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Yeah. Um, and it's a, it's a close friend of mine, and that's great.
22:53
I, I would say, um, maybe
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one of the things that our rescue is looking to do is they're looking to
23:00
maybe hold potential foster information nights. Where people
23:04
can come and ask questions about what it means to foster.
23:08
I would say that a rescue should maybe post
23:12
some of the assumed barriers that,
23:16
you know, somebody might have. Like, for example, there are a lot of people who
23:20
think that because they don't have a fenced-in yard, they'll get
23:24
declined for adopting or declined for fostering. And while that might be the case for
23:27
some rescues, it's certainly not the case for all of them. So maybe
23:31
post like, You don't need a fenced-in yard. We're gonna handle all the
23:35
medical. This is the support level that you get.
23:39
Maybe let somebody know that if it's not
23:42
working, you can bring the dog back to us, you know? And I think that
23:46
that's something that could be a barrier for people. Oh my God, what if this
23:49
doesn't work out in my house? What if they say that this dog is cat-friendly
23:52
and then it tries to eat my cat? Right. You know, what am I gonna
23:56
do here? And so maybe for a rescue, Here's
23:59
my foster right now. Uh, maybe for a rescue to just really,
24:03
um, just hit those— that's the thing about sales, hit the objections
24:07
head-on, um, as opposed to letting people
24:11
kind of walk away not having said their objection. Just say it. I,
24:15
I know what you're thinking. I know what you feel like your objection is. Here's
24:18
how we can overcome that objection together. Um, and then my, my advice
24:21
for people that are considering fostering is find an organization
24:25
you feel like you connect with. I think that, um,
24:29
first of all, there's no shortage of need for fosters.
24:33
So if you're considering fostering, you are a hot
24:36
commodity. Trust me, we need fosters,
24:40
we need loving homes. So you have your pick. Interview
24:44
the organization, make sure it's a good fit, ask questions.
24:48
If you reach out to them and they're not getting back to you, now, first
24:51
of all, Have some grace. They're all volunteers. Right.
24:54
But if ultimately you feel like they're not responding to you in a
24:58
way that you feel like is appropriate for your expectations, move
25:02
on. Go to another organization, right? Ask them questions.
25:06
You know, what does the support system look like? What if my dog has a
25:09
medical issue? What if the animal is not getting along in my
25:12
household? What are the steps then? You know, do I get any
25:16
decision-making in the adoption process? Is that something that's important to you?
25:19
Interview the rescues. Interview. You're a hot commodity. I think that
25:23
is the best advice I've heard, and it's different than I have heard before,
25:27
which is, you know, view yourself as a hot commodity because the rescues
25:31
are competing for you. And there are rescues that
25:35
will not— that will provide you with more support than
25:39
other rescues, let's say, in terms of promoting the animal and
25:42
helping you find a home. Right. I mean, you know, I've heard It's,
25:47
you know, the good and the bad of it. And I would say too that
25:49
if you do foster— and I've said this on the podcast— if you do foster
25:52
with an organization and you have a bad experience, go to
25:56
another one. Because all experiences are not going to
26:00
be equal. Please don't give up on the situation, right? Try to handle it with
26:03
grace and try to handle it with some forgiveness because every organization is
26:07
struggling to a degree. But like, go to another one, go to
26:11
a different organization, find the one that's the right fit for you. I have a
26:14
friend that just just joined fostering, and the organization she was gonna foster with
26:18
kind of wasn't letting her know when she was gonna get a dog. And I
26:22
sort of knew that, and I said, hey, we really have a dog that needs
26:24
to be placed right now. Are you available? And she was like, yep. And we
26:28
had that done by the end of the day. Um, and but that was also—
26:31
she had me as a resource, and it was a little bit different, but she
26:35
was like, hey, I— you guys need the help. They haven't gotten back to me,
26:38
so I'm gonna help them. And it's not a knock on that organization. They might
26:41
be dealing with other things we don't know about, but she was open, and this
26:44
dog really needed a place to go.
26:49
That's great advice, Kelly, and I really appreciate you coming on the show, and I
26:52
appreciate everything you do because I know fostering is a contribution that
26:55
not many people are willing to make. So I appreciate your doing it
26:59
yourself and educating other people. Thank you.
27:04
You know, they say like in mental health that one of the
27:07
best ways that you can heal yourself is to help somebody else. And
27:11
so if people are maybe not your jam right now,
27:15
things are a little bit sketchy these days, turn to
27:19
animals because they need a lot of help right now. And so I encourage
27:22
everybody to, to look into fostering in their own community, find an
27:26
organization that they really connect with, and certainly,
27:30
um, listen to the podcast if you want a little bit more advice. Feel free
27:33
to connect with me. I'd be happy to answer any further questions somebody
27:37
might have. My email is thefosterfiles
27:41
podcast@gmail.com. I, I read all my emails. I'm a one-man show over here, so
27:45
please feel free to connect. That's great, and I think people may take you
27:48
up on that. So, so thanks a lot, Kelly.
27:59
One thing Kelly said that I hope prospective fosters hear loud and clear is this:
28:03
you are a hot commodity. Rescues need
28:07
fosters. It's usually the constraint that means that they can't take on
28:10
another animal. So you get to ask questions.
28:14
Who handles it if an adopter isn't the right fit? What happens if
28:18
the dog isn't working out in your house? Rescues aren't all the
28:22
same, and one bad fostering experience doesn't tell
28:26
you what the next one will be like. But the thing I've kept thinking about
28:29
most is what Kelly said about getting too attached. I
28:33
could never foster because I'd get too attached sounds like a
28:37
statement about how much you care about animals. Kelly
28:40
asks us to turn that around. There are people who get
28:44
just as attached and foster anyway,
28:48
knowing that letting the dog go is going to hurt.
28:52
That's a harder way to think about it. I also think it's a useful one.
28:55
I'll put a link to The Foster Files in the show notes. along with my
28:59
earlier episode about all the ways that you can volunteer with animals
29:03
that don't involve just walking dogs. And for today's Be
29:06
the Change, you don't have to commit to fostering.
29:10
Just find one foster-based rescue near you and send them
29:14
an email asking what kind of support they provide.
29:18
That's it. Asking the question doesn't sign you up for anything.
29:23
But it might be the first step Toward helping a dog who just needs
29:26
somewhere to crash for a while. That's it
29:30
for today. The Animal Advocate podcast is brought to you by
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If you have any questions on this or any other topic related to animal law,
30:03
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30:08
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30:12
or feature them in a future episode, or both. And
30:15
remember, compassion is great, but compassionate
30:19
action is infinitely better. Until next week,
30:23
live with compassion. Live with compassion.