Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / You Can't Ride With Lightness If You're Heavy of Heart: Groundwork, Deep Breathing & Classical Mastery | Charlotte Wittbom | LFRF 66

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You Can't Ride With Lightness If You're Heavy of Heart: Groundwork, Deep Breathing & Classical Mastery | Charlotte Wittbom | LFRF 66 · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
0:06
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
0:08
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0:34
So now let's jump in.
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Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free.
0:38
I've got Charlotte Wittbom here.
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If you live in the UK and you are looking for really, really, really,
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really, like really, like really, like, like really good classical
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instruction, Charlotte's the person.
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But there's a reason why she's the person, and I know this because I've been hanging
0:55
out kind of around Charlotte world for, mm, oh, 15 years or something like that.
1:01
And y- she and I share a the, our main mentor, which is Luis ValenÃ§a in Portugal.
1:09
But Charlotte really has taken the classical thing and made a crossover into
1:16
the sport world that very few people do, and very few people manage to do without
1:22
sort of divorcing one to do the other.
1:26
And so in many ways, because she's now becoming a bit sort of significant in
1:32
that regard in the UK, she's a little bit our Great White Hope because there's
1:36
a lot of us cheerleading from the side like, "Go Charlotte, go Charlotte, go
1:39
Charlotte," because we want things to get a little better, frankly in, in
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this stressage world, which dressage unfortunately has to some degree become.
1:50
And Charlotte really understands this and, and makes life better for horses
1:55
and humans, I would say, while sort of staying within that dressagy sphere.
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And so how does she do it?
2:02
Why does she do it?
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Who does she do it for?
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Does she do it in funny Halloween costumes bouncing around on pogo
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sticks, maybe on trampolines?
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We don't know.
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We need to find out, so I've got her on the show.
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And she's rad, and she's gonna tell us why.
2:17
So thank you so much, Charlotte, for coming on.
2:20
Can you tell us who you are, where you came from, what you do, why do you do it?
2:26
Charlotte Wittbom: Thank you first for this introduction.
2:30
It was a very nice one.
2:31
So yes, I'm from Sweden originally and started in the cross-country world
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or the eventing world with ponies.
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And very early learned how to stay on the horses because we were riding
2:46
ponies- That's always a good thing.
2:47
Yeah.
2:48
We were riding ponies.
2:49
We had not saddles or we used those kind of flatâ¦
2:53
It was Shetland ponies, so it's those kind of flat saddles.
2:56
And I had an ice hockey helmet, and that was it.
3:02
So, my parents were horsey people.
3:04
They mostly did had a racing horse.
3:07
It was introduced before I could walk.
3:10
I used to sit behind my mum out on hacks probably in front of my mom.
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And when my sister came along, she stayed in front, and I stayed
3:18
behind, and we did hours of that.
3:21
So yeah, I, I think riding has been a big part from, from day one.
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And we had this unique experience that you have in Sweden, that
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you just have forests, and you could just go out for hours.
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And we played with the ponies, and we learned how to start them
3:36
because quite often they were quite wild when we got them.
3:40
And then after that, we also started to compete quite, me and my sister, compete
3:47
regularly almost every weekend at summers and do the championships and everything.
3:53
So the horses have always been a part of how I live and breathe, and I knew quite
4:00
early that I wanted to take a path in that and I think that first experience,
4:07
first of course with my parents, they were very committed to it, but also that
4:12
thing of just being able to play without the rules and learned how to communicate
4:17
and jump and just, you know, just having a good time have really helped me now
4:25
later on in my life in, in having that feel to to the horses, and balance, and
4:32
how you f- find that freedom, I guess-
4:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
4:36
Charlotte Wittbom: to get with the horse without the rules.
4:38
And then obviously later in my life came the rules also.
4:42
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
4:42
But it's, w- when the rules come- So- â¦ I mean, your, your start was actually
4:45
not dissimilar to mine in many ways.
4:48
It's interesting that w- then- Mm â¦ later when the rules come, you can kind
4:50
of appreciate them and go, "Oh, I see.
4:52
Yeah, these rules kind of make life- Yeah â¦ you know, more efficient or moreâ¦
4:58
It, it, it allows you to do more.
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And at the same time, if you- Yeah â¦ lose that joy of the rule-breaking or
5:05
the no rules- Mm â¦ or if you always stay in the rules, then there is no joy.
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I-
5:11
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
5:11
Rupert Isaacson: But not everyone gets to start with- No
5:13
the joy like you did.
5:16
Charlotte Wittbom: No, I think it's very unique.
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It, it, it, it is of course that you live in a place where you can
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do it- Mm â¦ is very important.
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And also of course that you have the, the support of, of parents, especially
5:27
if you live, it's an expensive sport.
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But I think if I look back at it now, and then I h- of course I
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had a lot of good instructors.
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We competed on a very high level with ponies.
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That was a- a- another part of it too.
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I think if I really look back at it, it was that playing and learn how to stay
5:44
on that I really draw from, Mm â¦ later on during during my career really.
5:52
Rupert Isaacson: But now you're this classical dressage person.
5:54
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
5:55
Rupert Isaacson: And you're sort of one of the biggies now in the UK.
5:58
You're a bit of a well-kept secret.
5:59
Not sure
5:59
Charlotte Wittbom: about that.
6:00
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, you are.
6:01
Yes, you are.
6:01
A- and, and more and more people are finding out about you.
6:04
Mm.
6:04
And, you know, every chance I get I always tell people to go train with you.
6:08
How did you leave those forests of Sweden and find your way to this classical thing?
6:12
What happened?
6:13
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
6:14
So I competed on a quite high level, and when I finished school, it was
6:20
sort of, I didn't know what to do with, with, as the next step really.
6:24
I knew I wanted to work with horses.
6:27
I wasn't necessarily looking at a competitive part in a way, just
6:34
because I think I'm a person that always put quite a lot of pressure
6:37
on myself, so the competition environment never really worked for me.
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My sister always did much better 'cause she didn't listen to the lessons and
6:47
then she went in and just, and did very well, while I worked very hard
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most of the times, and therefore I think that it, it, it, it wasâ¦
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I was, I think, looking for a different way to connect and learn without at that
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point maybe understanding what that was.
7:08
So, my path took me to a riding school in the UK, Suzanne's Riding
7:13
School which had the owner called Julian Marczak, and he, heâ¦
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I think they were quite early, like, they were outside London.
7:23
I can't remember where now, but they were quite well-known.
7:27
In the way that they organized the, theâ¦
7:30
You could do the ABRS or BHS courses and at the same time- Right â¦ you
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also had possibility to teach in, in those programs and had a lot of ponies.
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And when I came to his place, he immediately just let me be
7:46
on the lunge and learned, and taught me how to sit properly.
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And later on, which I didn't know then he always told me that he had been to
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Portugal and he had trained for Master Nuno Oliveira's son, JoÃ£o Oliveira.
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Of course, at that point I had no clue because I didn't know
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anything of, of the classical world.
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But what he did was really strip me back into really understanding
8:13
my seat and how to sit properly, and then the lessons at those days,
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I didn't know that then either.
8:19
We did a lot of walk work, a lot of lateral work in walk.
8:24
And it was a very different way of teaching style to what I had been used
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to, to coming more from the more Germanic way, I guess, in Sweden to get the
8:33
horses ready for the competition ring.
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And there I just felt that there was something that really ticked the
8:42
boxes, I guess, in me, and found a way of how I could learn a different
8:47
way of communicating with a horse and help them to work in a balance.
8:50
It was really early days then, but it was something I knew that I wanted to do more.
8:56
And after sort of traveling around the world, I came to Portugal and Met
9:03
the ValenÃ§a family and was very kindly offered a place at their, their pla- at
9:10
their house, at their equestrian center.
9:12
And when I came there, I really felt like I had found a way of, of
9:19
understanding horsemanship in the way that I think I was looking for.
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So I, I managed to stay there for quite a long time.
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And what soâ¦
9:31
If we're gonna have a shortcut to the whole journey, after being with the
9:35
ValenÃ§as for a few years doing the shows with them of course learning a
9:40
system that I'm, today, it- it's, it's, it's very, very loyal to or rooted to.
9:47
When, after finishing my time with them, I after start to run Quinta do Brejo,
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which was Master Nuno Oliveira's old yard.
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So when I came there, I realized this is where my instructor in London started.
10:03
And that I've had those first six months with him, in a way, as a preparation,
10:08
I think, w- for getting the seat, the classical seat, and getting the,
10:13
the know-how to sort of be able to make that transition to Portugal.
10:18
That was almost like I've gone full circle then in that way.
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So yeah, that was how, how it sort of became that path starting in England.
10:28
That's why it's a little bit funny that I'm there, that I'm in England now.
10:33
Rupert Isaacson: Couple of questions.
10:34
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
10:34
Rupert Isaacson: You said, "Oh, I found my way to Portugal after
10:36
traveling around the world."
10:37
Yeah.
10:37
Okay, question, where, where did you go around- So-
10:40
the world before you got to Portugal?
10:41
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, so I went first to Portugal and was
10:45
just with a I saw an ad in Sweden that they needed people for work.
10:50
So I went down and met up with this s- a Swedish lady.
10:55
And she showed me the, the, a big Xavier Lima, a big breeder- In
11:01
Portugal, and I was offered a job there.
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So I was supposed to travel for a whole year, but I put the travel down to six
11:09
months so I could come back to Portugal.
11:11
Okay.
11:11
And then I worked for them a bit, and then after that I
11:14
Rupert Isaacson: met- And then how did you find your way from them to the ValenÃ§as?
11:16
Just before you answer, so it's, it's an interesting thing.
11:19
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
11:19
Rupert Isaacson: I had been going down to Portugal for a while-
11:21
Mm â¦ rather similar reasons to you.
11:23
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
11:24
Rupert Isaacson: A bit different because obviously I had this therapeutic-
11:27
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
11:27
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: way of looking at it.
11:28
I realized that collection, soft collection was the key-
11:32
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
11:32
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: to autistic kids speaking in the saddle- Mm â¦ in front of me.
11:36
It was an oxytocin connection with.
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Mm.
11:39
So I, I needed to learn more about this, so of course I, I went for
11:42
training here, training there.
11:44
Mm.
11:44
You know, and then little by little I kept hearing this name coming
11:47
up, ValenÃ§a, ValenÃ§a, ValenÃ§a.
11:49
Mm.
11:49
And then I remember thinking, "Well, I'd like to find my
11:51
way to this, these people."
11:52
Mm.
11:52
But I got told, "Oh, no, you know, they're very exclusive, and-
11:56
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
11:57
Rupert Isaacson: you can't really approach them, and it's like a, you
11:59
know, holy priesthood, and they- Mm â¦ don't really speak English."
12:01
And finally one day, the, the journalist in me just thought, "Fuck it," you know.
12:04
I mean, they k- they're just people.
12:06
Mm.
12:06
And I just went online and, oh, there's their website, and it's called.
12:09
Yeah.
12:09
And I got Sophia ValenÃ§a.
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She's like, "Yeah, of course you can come tomorrow.
12:12
What are you talking about?"
12:12
Yeah.
12:13
Yeah.
12:13
And she spoke great English.
12:13
And I, "Oh, I gotâ¦"
12:14
So she, "Oh, yeah, people do that because they kind of want
12:18
to own us in a funny way."
12:19
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
12:19
A-
12:20
Rupert Isaacson: And then of course I went and, like you, my life changed.
12:23
Mm.
12:24
But whatâ¦
12:25
Yeah, how did, yeah, how did you find your way to them?
12:28
And- So- â¦ what specifically made you think, "Oh my God, it's these people
12:32
here," rather than all these other fantastic horse people in Portugal?
12:36
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I think I was quite lost, if I'm completely
12:40
honest, in that part of my life in both of probably looking for who I am,
12:46
but also in my identity as a rider.
12:49
So I did see a show with them during my first time before I
12:54
travel around the world where I-
12:56
Rupert Isaacson: Ah
12:56
Charlotte Wittbom: really just-
12:58
Rupert Isaacson: Can you tell us what, not everyone who's listening
13:00
knows what that show- Yeah â¦ was.
13:02
So
13:02
Charlotte Wittbom: it
13:02
Rupert Isaacson: was just a- Tell us about that show.
13:03
What was it
13:04
Charlotte Wittbom: called and what was in it?
13:04
It was like a, it was a little, a feira you would say.
13:08
What, how do you what, what do you say feira in-
13:10
Rupert Isaacson: like a
13:11
Charlotte Wittbom: fair â¦ English?
13:11
Like a, like a, yeah.
13:11
Yeah, like a fair.
13:13
So it was just a lo- it was a local fair, and I saw- In Portugal?
13:18
In Portugal.
13:18
I can't remember the town.
13:20
But what I remember from it was f- just the strongest because it was quite a
13:25
while ago, the strongest that I still have in my mind was when I saw little
13:30
Ines, which is the granddaughter of it's a great-granddaugh-daughter of Master Luis.
13:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
13:36
No, she, she's the, she's the granddaughter, but now she has
13:39
her own daughter- Yes, yes â¦ so now he has- Of course â¦ he
13:41
now has a great-granddaughter
13:43
Charlotte Wittbom: as well.
13:44
Great-granddaughter.
13:44
Yeah.
13:44
It's all confusing.
13:45
Granddaughter.
13:45
So, and she was riding in with her s- her mother I think it was, and if
13:53
it was one of the sisters, but it was just that with the music, with their
13:57
beautiful dresses, and the way they were presenting the, the, the, the likeness
14:06
and the, the classical music and this beautiful Baroque horses, again, I-
14:15
Did not know much about Lusitano and Portugal, and to have that as your sort of
14:22
experience a month in when you fir- when I first came to Portugal was a really,
14:27
really strong and a strong impression.
14:30
And then I knew that that is, was the way I wanted to ride,
14:34
that was the way I wanted to go.
14:36
But of course, I had no connection to them.
14:38
But what happened was it that where I used to work Master Luis and his
14:43
family used to come and buy horses.
14:45
So they had s- we had met, not personally, w- never introduced to
14:51
it, but we were, they had seen me ride and then through a mutual friend
14:57
I got the space at Master Luis.
15:00
So it was a v- Mm â¦ very strange way of of getting to that part because it
15:06
was nothing that was planned and nothing that I had been looking for either.
15:10
Mm.
15:10
It was just sort of st- steered for that direction really.
15:15
Rupert Isaacson: And then, okay, y- you spent your time there, and
15:19
like anyone who's spent time there-
15:21
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
15:22
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you realize, oh, my gosh, this, this is possible.
15:25
I can do this if it- with, with the right mentorship, blah, blah, blah.
15:29
Then you end up running-
15:30
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah
15:31
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: the show over at Nuno Oliveira's old barn.
15:35
How did that happen?
15:36
And who was running it?
15:36
Like, you, you didn't buy it presumably and start running it yourself.
15:40
That would've been- No, I didn't â¦ a lot of capital.
15:42
I, I mean, h- so, so who, who was- â¦ and what was going on there, and yeah.
15:48
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
15:49
So during my time at ValenÃ§a's I, I see that time as, as really
15:53
understanding what I want with my own riding, what I want to do.
15:58
Of course, early days and everything, but also a way of, of
16:02
calming down, if that makes sense.
16:04
A way of, of l- learning how to live life because Portugal,
16:08
everything is a bit slower, if I-
16:10
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
16:11
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: okay to say so.
16:13
And the art is very important.
16:15
The, the time and the, the, that you're having a nice time
16:19
together is very important.
16:21
Mm.
16:21
The, the conversation between e- each other.
16:24
So it's, the, it's a completely different way of living.
16:29
So I think- Mm â¦ it was very, very good for my own personal
16:34
development in many, many ways.
16:36
So I definitely thought I was gonna just stay there for a year, but then
16:40
stayed much longer as a result of it.
16:44
And, I didn't go straight to the Quinta do Brejo after the Vallanzas.
16:48
I, I also worked at Morgado do Lucitano for a while where-
16:53
Mm â¦ which was also very good because what I could do there was just
16:57
practicing my craft a bit, I think.
17:00
Finding a way of how to make things your own because you live a- and
17:05
you learn, and you absorb it i- in all the different ways that you can.
17:11
And then to sort of go away and finding a little bit of, getting a bit of
17:16
experience teaching- Mm-hmm â¦ and, and riding was a, a, a very, very good-
17:20
Morgado being a place that people- I, I
17:22
Rupert Isaacson: think I would have been ready to take on â¦ tourists
17:23
can come, equestrian tourists, and experience the classical Lusitano thing.
17:26
Can come and ride.
17:27
Yeah.
17:28
Yeah, yeah.
17:28
Charlotte Wittbom: Experience.
17:29
Yeah.
17:29
Yeah.
17:29
It was like a holiday place, Yeah â¦ for people to come and
17:32
ride very well-trained horses.
17:34
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
17:34
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: and from that I then tried my own thing with, Again,
17:38
I can't even remember how I got in connection with the owners of Quinta do
17:42
Brejo, but I got that opportunity to,
17:46
Rupert Isaacson: And they had horses there presumably?
17:48
Charlotte Wittbom: I brought some of my own.
17:50
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
17:50
Charlotte Wittbom: Had some clients' horses, and they had a few horses
17:53
as well that Dom Tomas Alergran was riding and training at that times.
17:58
And him and his wife were incredible of opening their arms up for my
18:05
new adventure, and also to be a very big part in giving guests
18:08
an experience of eating dinner at Master Nuno Oliveira's old house.
18:15
Breakfast and dinner,
18:16
Rupert Isaacson: Did you have, like, seances with a Ouija board and you
18:19
could, like, ask him questions from the- You'd be like, "Nuno, are you there?"
18:23
And he'd give you like- That
18:23
Charlotte Wittbom: would be good.
18:24
" Rupert Isaacson: You ride like shit."
18:26
Charlotte Wittbom: That would be very good.
18:28
But yeah Don Tomas definitely enjoyed telling stories about, about that time.
18:34
And what I also got so fascinating when the saddles we used
18:38
was his old saddles as well.
18:41
So when people complained-
18:42
Rupert Isaacson: So
18:42
Charlotte Wittbom: there'd be some clever butt sweat in there, like-
18:44
"Oh, but these are not comfortable saddles" I said that, "Hey, Master
18:48
Nuno Oliveira sat in them, soâ¦"
18:52
Rupert Isaacson: So a- absorbing all that clever sweat- Yeah
18:54
up through your own butt.
18:55
You're like-
18:55
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
18:55
â¦ " Rupert Isaacson: Channel, channel through me"
18:57
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
18:57
Rupert Isaacson: But did, did, did Don Tomas buy the, the Quinta from- Yeah,
19:01
Charlotte Wittbom: yeah â¦ from Nuno?
19:02
So he had bought, bought, bought it and Master Nuno Oliveira's Yeah, he
19:06
had bought it and he owned it, so he, he ran it as his, his own yard.
19:10
But he, he himself really looked up to Master Nuno Oli- Oliveira, and him- he had
19:18
taken it to really preserving him in it.
19:21
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
19:22
Charlotte Wittbom: So everything was just as it was at his time,
19:25
except that they had done rooms where some of the stables were.
19:28
But the little indoor arena- Still, you know, he was playing classical music.
19:34
It was it was really, like, you could feel.
19:37
There's a very particular atmosphere at that place.
19:40
I don't know if you've ever been-
19:42
Rupert Isaacson: I've never been, no
19:42
Charlotte Wittbom: visiting.
19:43
No.
19:43
Rupert Isaacson: I'd love to.
19:43
Is it still going?
19:44
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
19:45
Oh.
19:45
I don't know if they do some riding, I mean, if they still do riding, but they
19:49
definitely that you can stay there.
19:51
But it has a very particular calm, I would say, about that place.
19:56
And you can almost, you know, feel the presence of something
20:00
big, if that sounds okay.
20:03
It is- Mm â¦ it, it is incredible to feel that you've, to ride in that place
20:09
and understanding what an im- importance that place and, and the person that, of
20:15
course, owned that place, what he had created for, for the future generation
20:21
in, in- Yeah â¦ the horse world.
20:24
Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly, for those listeners and watchers who do not know
20:27
who Nuno Oliveira was let's say that he sitteth upon the right hand of God.
20:31
In the, in the 20th century classical riding in the Baroque style had
20:37
largely disappeared from the, I guess, the purview of people in the West
20:45
outside of enclaves in Iberia, in Spain and Portugal, and enclaves like
20:51
the Spanish Riding School of Vienna.
20:53
And- Nuno Oliveira, what he did was he looked at all of the warring factions
21:04
the French, the German, the Portuguese.
21:07
I wouldn't say the Portuguese were warring actually.
21:08
They were just- Yeah â¦ happily doing their own thing-
21:10
Yeah â¦ rather brilliantly.
21:12
And he said very rationally, "Look, everyone's trying to do the same thing.
21:18
Everyone's trying to get back really to the 18th century with these two
21:23
guys, one of whom was French, La Gueriniere, and one of whom was,
21:26
was Portuguese, called Marialva."
21:28
And those two guys knew each other, and he said, "Now, nowâ¦"
21:31
And they, and they worked together to some degree.
21:33
They corresponded.
21:34
They, they, you know, they were colleagues.
21:36
And that's where this idea of the French-Portuguese style came in.
21:40
And of course there was the bullfighting style down in Portugal, and the more
21:44
sort of balletic style up in, in France, but both of them still also producing
21:48
horses for combat in the cavalry.
21:50
And so Nuno said, you know, clearly these guys were the apex, but in the intervening
21:57
centuries, horses have changed.
21:59
We now have these warmbloods.
22:00
We have Anglo-Arabs.
22:01
We have Thoroughbreds.
22:02
So you need to tweak it a bit like this and tweak it a bit like that
22:06
for these other types of horse.
22:07
We don't need to be warring with each other.
22:09
We can synthesize these things, and then take these new types of horse and
22:14
sort of bring them back to what these original old dead dudes said we should do.
22:18
And he sort of proved it really, I would say.
22:20
Yeah.
22:20
Mm.
22:21
And then Master Nuno M- Master Luis ValenÃ§a, who we have talked about in
22:26
this conversation, who was also the student of Oliveira and his cousin- Wow
22:30
Has sort of carried that on.
22:32
And you and I, Charlotte, are both beneficiaries of this because- Yeah â¦ we
22:36
work with every breed under the sun, and we find that the rules apply really across
22:41
the breeds, but with this rational thing of saying, yes, you tweak it a little
22:45
bit French style- Right â¦ if you're going with the Anglo-Arab, Thoroughbred-y
22:49
types, and you tweak it a little bit Germanic style if you're going with
22:53
the warmblood-y types who really like to go forward, and that sort of thing.
22:56
Yeah.
22:56
And then you, but you bring it back to that sort of ideal.
23:00
Okay, so you found yourself there-
23:03
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
23:03
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: running wonderful dressage teaching and experiences
23:09
and blah, blah, blah in the holy cathedral of Nuno Oliveira- Yeah â¦ and
23:13
then you ended up in Manchester.
23:14
So what happened?
23:17
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
23:19
Well, I moved to the UK.
23:23
That happened.
23:25
No, I think, I think that path, I think looking back at it to be able
23:32
to still stay in Portugal- Again, learn my craft even better because I
23:38
think if you're going back to a bit what you said about Master Luis and
23:41
his family, what he had really given us, it's a system a pr- a method
23:49
that is a part of your DNA in a way.
23:51
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
23:53
Charlotte Wittbom: But also that you- Feel allowed to develop
24:01
the path you want to take.
24:04
Rupert Isaacson: 100%.
24:04
Charlotte Wittbom: I think sometimes when you have a method or you have
24:06
a system, it's very easy to think, "No, we have to stay to this system.
24:12
We have to stay to the method."
24:13
Of course, but there's a-
24:14
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
24:15
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: to have a base where you also have the, him being
24:18
such a big master, him having this i- incredible self-less self,
24:25
Rupert Isaacson: We're talking about Master Luis here?
24:27
Charlotte Wittbom: He, no, he's not selfish.
24:28
He's very ex-
24:29
Rupert Isaacson: Selfless.
24:30
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, Master Luis ValenÃ§a.
24:32
That he's very- It's
24:32
Rupert Isaacson: gotta be said- Selfless â¦ he's one of the nicest dudes- Yes.
24:36
â¦ you've ever met.
24:36
Yeah.
24:37
He's not your- Yeah â¦ usual grumpy-
24:39
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
24:40
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: opinionated angry, bitter slightly abusive, but with lots
24:45
of good information type dressage dude.
24:47
No- No â¦ quite the opposite.
24:48
No.
24:48
Quite the opposite.
24:48
He's like- Yeah â¦ the dude that you wanna go have lunch with anyway.
24:52
Charlotte Wittbom: And the and he would always go out with lunch, Yes
24:55
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: or
24:55
Charlotte Wittbom: lunch with you as well.
24:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
24:58
Charlotte Wittbom: And, and I think what the real gift in, in his and his
25:03
family's method is that you are allowed and, and you feel allowed, and you are
25:12
able to develop and take inputs- Mm
25:15
from other things that still fit into that system.
25:18
Mm.
25:18
So it's not a system that is there to, that needs to be- It's not
25:22
Rupert Isaacson: rigid.
25:23
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, no.
25:23
Yeah.
25:24
And he's not there to keep a man up either.
25:26
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
25:26
It's not a cult.
25:27
You know- No â¦ one of the things which I've, I've noticed so much about some of
25:31
the latter day dressage gurus is it's like you're either with them or against them.
25:37
Mm-hmm.
25:37
You know?
25:38
You're not allowed to say, "Well, yes, I'd like to do a portion of
25:44
what you do, but I'd also like to d- " It's like, "Nope, you eitherâ¦"
25:47
You know, all that sh- stuff is shite unless it's me, and, you
25:51
know, and you'll be excommunicated.
25:52
It's like a church almost.
25:54
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
25:54
Rupert Isaacson: And if that's we know that's not how horses are.
25:56
Yeah.
25:56
And we know that's not how people are.
25:58
And I wonder if because Luis comes from Nuno, who comes from Maria Alva
26:04
and La Garenne- Mm â¦ I wonder if-
26:05
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
26:06
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: because that, that was always multidisciplinary.
26:09
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
26:09
Rupert Isaacson: Bullfighting was always part of the thing even
26:11
though Luis is not a bullfighter.
26:12
Mm.
26:12
But he understands the Rejonero- Mm
26:14
form of dressage, and he's not a working equitation rider, but he understands the
26:19
working equitation- Mm â¦ side of it.
26:21
And he, all of these are forms of dressage, and the classical balletic form.
26:26
Yeah.
26:27
I think that there's a much broader sort of a understanding of- the art-
26:36
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
26:36
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: as a living, breathing thing.
26:40
Yeah.
26:40
And sometimes also a curiosity in terms of the people that come in, rather than,
26:44
"I'm the teacher and you're gonnaâ¦"
26:45
So one of the things that I was very humbled by when I was first spending
26:48
time there was that Sophia and him said, "Okay, let's put a horse
26:52
pr- a horse boy program in here."
26:54
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
26:54
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
26:54
We, we, you know- Yeah
26:55
they were one of the first people to say- Yeah â¦ "Yeah, we see it."
26:57
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
26:57
" Rupert Isaacson: Sure."
26:58
Yeah.
26:58
"Let's have some autistic people come in and we'll-
27:00
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
27:00
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: harness our dressage for that," you know?
27:02
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
27:03
Rupert Isaacson: So rare that you'd have that kind ofâ¦
27:06
And then they were like, "Show us what to do, Rupert."
27:08
Yeah.
27:08
I'm like, "I'm not showing you what to do, Luiz."
27:10
Yeah.
27:10
You know?
27:11
Y- and he said, "No, no, no, but the, it, it's, it's this other thing, so show us."
27:15
And then- Yeah â¦ of course, they did it beautifully and amazingly.
27:19
But humble.
27:20
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
27:21
Humble is definitely a word, and I also think as everything, as my journey
27:25
here in the UK at the moment, and if we later on will go a bit into the,
27:31
sort of the, I don't like to call it a dressage world at all, because
27:35
I think good riding is good riding.
27:38
But it, I think what is so important is that we have to listen first, and I think
27:44
one of those things, it's, it's when you really understand and you know what you
27:52
are looking for or you know your method or you have it, y- it's almost you can, the
27:59
person you're teaching have to be ready for it - Yeah, sure â¦ to listen to that.
28:03
And you have to also then understand first where that person is in their life and
28:08
what they are- Mm â¦ able to take in.
28:11
And I think maybe unknowingly or knowingly, they have
28:18
that ability both as a- Mm.
28:21
.. as a family.
28:21
But also, of course, Master Luiz ValenÃ§a, but they all, that they,
28:25
they- Take you from where you are.
28:29
And I think that it's one of the biggest lesson that, or lesson, biggest
28:34
thing that I'm thinking about now when I continue the pa- your path, that
28:38
is everyone are on their own paths.
28:41
Mm.
28:41
So there's no just the truth somewhere out there.
28:46
Mm.
28:46
For each person you meet, for each story you listen to, for each horse
28:50
you meet or, and understanding their past and what it is, it's always
28:55
something new that you're creating.
28:58
Mm.
28:58
And to have a proper method in place that
29:01
Rupert Isaacson: m-
29:02
Charlotte Wittbom: make
29:05
s- so secure about that, that you can have that ability that you also feel
29:11
that you are learning at each each meeting you d- have, I think that is,
29:16
it's very unique, and I'm very, very grateful for that experience and for-
29:22
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, you-
29:23
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: having that now.
29:24
Mm.
29:25
Rupert Isaacson: And that's what art is, right?
29:27
You know.
29:27
Mm.
29:27
I'm, I'm a writer and it is true that there is a certain structure in stories.
29:32
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
29:32
Rupert Isaacson: If you â¦ And you have to, you have to humble yourself to that.
29:35
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
29:36
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
29:36
That there's always a prologue which starts- Mm â¦ at the height of the
29:38
action and leaves you with a question- Mm
29:41
what will happen?
29:42
You know?
29:42
Yeah.
29:42
So that you then want to engage with the story.
29:44
And then act one is the call to action.
29:47
Mm.
29:48
Usually the protagonist is reluctant.
29:51
Mm.
29:51
Gets pulled in.
29:52
Mm.
29:52
Then act two, it all goes wrong.
29:55
Mm.
29:56
And you know, Darth Vader kind of almost wins and- Mm â¦ then the Luke
30:00
Skywalker character or whoever has, realizes they have to change something
30:04
internally and learn some different thing.
30:07
They find their Yoda or their Luis Valenca or whatever.
30:10
Mm.
30:11
And then they internalize those lessons and go out-
30:15
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
30:15
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: to meet the dilemma again.
30:17
Act three, they meet Darth Vader again or whoever, and it all goes wrong
30:22
again, but at the point where the lightsaber's at their throat, they
30:25
remember that Luis Valenca said- Mm
30:28
um, ah, you know, it's all about the thumb and forefinger.
30:31
And Yeah.
30:32
â¦ the outside rein.
30:33
And, Mm â¦ and they, they call on that and they prevail, and then the- Mm.
30:39
Mm â¦ epilogue, you see the characters leaving into a changed world.
30:42
Now, some of- someone might say- Mm â¦ "Oh, that's so rigid, Rupert.
30:45
You know, surely not every story adheres to that."
30:48
No, they absolutely do.
30:49
However-
30:50
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
30:50
Mm
30:51
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: because it's built into the human psyche, that story.
30:54
Mm.
30:54
Mm.
30:54
And it's to do with shamanism, and it's to do with how story's
30:57
been used for healing since-
30:59
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
31:00
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: the beginning of time.
31:01
However, the numbers of ways that that can be expressed are infinite.
31:07
And I, I feel that within horses, the ValenÃ§a family have this unique ability
31:13
to be able to see it that way, to say, "Well, look, there is a structure."
31:16
Mm.
31:16
And they, as you say, they give you a structure.
31:18
And I was lucky to have Ma- Master Luis on this show-
31:22
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
31:23
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: a few days ago, so he sort of explained his structure.
31:25
But of course, that structure's infinitely flexible- Mm-hmm â¦ and
31:29
infinitely tweakable- Twistable â¦ to the infinite number of horses and
31:34
human combinations that might, Yeah
31:37
present.
31:38
And that is art, right?
31:39
That is art.
31:39
Yeah,
31:40
Charlotte Wittbom: yeah, yeah.
31:44
Yeah.
31:45
Rupert Isaacson: Okay They do So you're doing all this art in
31:47
Portugal- And we- â¦ and you're having a cracking time â¦ can't
31:49
Charlotte Wittbom: be mini copies of, of the great man or of the-
31:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
31:58
So again, how did you, how did you end up leaving Portugal, because
32:02
it sounds like a kind of promised land, and ended up in Manchester?
32:06
Charlotte Wittbom: My husband is f- is from Manchester.
32:10
Rupert Isaacson: You say your husband's from Manchester.
32:12
Well, sure, but you're hanging out in Portugal.
32:13
Where's the Mancunian man come into this?
32:15
Charlotte Wittbom: So I came to the UK because I met, Well,
32:18
I didn't come straight to UK.
32:20
I first went to Sweden in between, and then after I came
32:25
to England because of love
32:28
And started in a way all over again here in the UK, which was also a very humbling
32:35
experience because I think what I felt in Portugal is that after running Master
32:41
Nuno Oliveira's y- yard and having sort of working on that craft, I've always
32:46
had a bit of a feel that I w- I would wanted to come back into the competition
32:51
world where I came from originally.
32:55
And in many ways, I think moving to Manchester or South of Manchester have
33:00
really helped me continuing that pathway of, of going back to where I started
33:06
in a way of, of meeting people there competing, but also finding a way to
33:15
use the experience I've had in Portugal because what is nice when I came as
33:21
a Swede with the experience of the competing was that everything I did in
33:24
Portugal were very, very different to how someone that lives, you know, in Sweden
33:32
or someone that lives in the UK lives.
33:35
Like, the way you h- how you work with horses, the sunshine . First
33:40
of all, you're mostly in mud.
33:42
And the, the food, the, the classical music.
33:45
If you go back to Sweden or go back to the UK, that looks very, very different.
33:53
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it does.
33:54
Charlotte Wittbom: So I think it was quite nice to go back
33:57
to the, to the roots in a way.
33:59
Not the roots, but the similar to how I gr- grew up and try
34:02
to find a way how to use all my experience that I had in Portugal.
34:08
And also to find a pathway where I could share that to others, especially the
34:14
groundwork, which have really been my thing here in the UK to- Mm â¦ to help
34:19
people to understand the importance of the groundwork, get them a proper method
34:23
in place- Mm-hmm â¦ with the groundwork.
34:26
And also in that way- really understanding how it, it helps, of course, themselves,
34:33
their own riding, but also helps them to understand what feel and how things looks
34:39
like can be either very different or- Mm.
34:43
Or being quite in a different way than, than what you thought and having
34:48
that sort of visual thing as well as the feel of in the saddle, and
34:56
that has been very, very rewarding.
34:58
So I think from, from nothing in many ways and finding a way of, of
35:04
putting everything you learned into a, a, a completely different set
35:08
of circumstances w- has been a way of, of refining the craft again.
35:16
And in here in the UK I did meet, Quite early on late Steven
35:20
Clark, which for those that don't know, he's a, he was an FEI judge
35:30
And a dressage judge five star, and he also sat in the I think in the London
35:37
Olympic Committee as the head judge.
35:40
I might be wrong about that.
35:42
But he, he was, he lived just nearby here.
35:45
So I managed to start to take lessons from him.
35:49
So it was in a way going first from my competitive background
35:53
to something completely
35:54
Rupert Isaacson: different,
35:57
Charlotte Wittbom: which was the classical way of riding.
36:00
You know, good riding's good riding, so it was not completely different.
36:03
But the way of, of breeding a living horse is completely different to,
36:08
to- Mm â¦ what I'm, was used to.
36:10
And then getting to the UK and, Sitting, standing in mud and sort of trying to-
36:17
Mm â¦ find a way of, of crafting again, and then meeting someone in the com- a,
36:24
a, a really good, a, a very nice humble man Stephen Clarke, to learn a different
36:32
set of, of, of of, of ways of, of riding.
36:37
It's notâ¦
36:38
It's the same, but you know, different thoughts, different way of, of
36:42
having that conversation about learn, teaching horses and teaching people.
36:47
So I think it's really been quite different stages in that way.
36:52
Rupert Isaacson: And, and now you're-
36:53
Charlotte Wittbom: Of how we-
36:54
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.
36:55
I'm interrupting you.
36:57
Charlotte Wittbom: No, no, no.
36:58
You're not interrupting, sorry.
36:59
Rupert Isaacson: Well, the, you talk about the groundwork and of course,
37:04
you and I both know that having, if you like- Mm â¦ gone through the
37:09
Valenza/Nuno/Marialva La GueriniÃ¨re sort of line, that the in hand work is the key.
37:17
Mm.
37:18
Mm.
37:18
And you know, we, we get trained to teach our horses all the fancy stuff,
37:22
including flying changes, walking next to our horses and then we find that that
37:27
translates brilliantly to the saddle more easily, more smoothly, ba, ba, ba, ba.
37:32
Mm.
37:32
Mm.
37:32
And but now in the, you know as well as I do the, the competition
37:36
world in dressage is not that.
37:38
And so you find- Mm â¦ yourself back in that world.
37:43
Mm â¦ how has all that groundwork helped you, and then also, have you found that
37:52
there's a sort of a change of heart going on within the sort of regular competition
37:59
world in dressage more towards this?
38:01
Or y- 'cause you know, I don't exist in the competition world at all.
38:05
All right?
38:05
Mm.
38:05
Mm â¦ so I'm sort of in the teaching world, in the training
38:08
world, and in the therapy world.
38:09
So I can kind of i- ignore it to some degree, and I get
38:14
clients, of course- Yeah,
38:16
Charlotte Wittbom: mm â¦ who
38:16
Rupert Isaacson: want to say, "Well, how do I teach my horse to piaffe, or
38:19
how do I teach my horse to passage?"
38:20
I say, "Okay, I can show you that.
38:22
But what I can't do is I can't show you that- Mm â¦ in a way that will
38:25
please- Mm â¦ an FEI judge for that."
38:29
And then I always say, "Go to Charlotte.
38:30
She'll do that."
38:31
Because she understands where it's coming from- â¦ and then,
38:34
and then how to, you know.
38:36
Mm.
38:36
But you know, we don't obviously just wanna be pleasing judges.
38:40
But at the same time in competition, you kind of have to.
38:42
So how do you- Mm â¦ tread this uneasy line?
38:46
It, it, it's an interesting crossroads that you sit at.
38:49
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
38:51
Yeah.
38:51
Well, I don't think, I don't- See it as a crossroad, I think.
38:56
I think what it was in myself, it was two very different worlds in, in a way.
39:02
I came from a competitive where I really struggled with pressure.
39:07
I, I did not necessarily feel as a good rider after doing a test, even
39:14
though I could get the good marks.
39:16
It was something in me that just didn't, sit right or I
39:19
was looking for something else.
39:21
And then with the, the, the, my journey in Portugal and then coming back here
39:29
to the UK, I think my mission was very much, oh, I would like to really try
39:33
to start to compete again because more for my own sort of way of, of seeing
39:40
if I could do it without falling apart,
39:43
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
39:43
Charlotte Wittbom: uh, in, in the ring with the pressure.
39:46
And I did to a certain extent, a little bit of that.
39:48
But I think what, with the people I met and with the, the, the path is taking, of
39:54
course when I first came over to the UK there was a lot of people that are just
39:57
so curious in what you're doing and you, you have to always build your craft with-
40:03
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
40:04
Charlotte Wittbom: with, in, in all the different surroundings
40:06
you're in to- Mm â¦ so to be able to start from from new in a way.
40:12
I, I always think of that when I worked at Morgado Lusitano my, it
40:17
was me and my ex-husband that were there as the instructors, and I
40:22
always remember everyone always came and was so disappointed when they
40:25
got to me as an instructor because of course they wanted- You weren't
40:30
Rupert Isaacson: Portuguese
40:30
Charlotte Wittbom: they wanted my Portuguese husband at that time.
40:34
And I always think that that journey of being that disappoint- appointment
40:41
and learning your craft to, to get to, to give to the people that you, you
40:48
know, that you're, that you teach, that actually, you know, finding a way of
40:53
being able to communicate and, and that they do like the lesson afterwards- Mm
40:57
has been such a good part because it was a bit the same then to go to the UK.
41:02
They don't know who you are.
41:03
You're completely new for- Mm â¦ for, I did give some clinics in the UK.
41:07
I did give clinics in Oxford and so I was not completely without a client group.
41:14
But it- it's that craft, those hours, that way of finding a way
41:19
in, which you only can by people feeling a difference in their horses.
41:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
41:24
Charlotte Wittbom: And also being understanding that it has to come from
41:28
word of mouth, and also has to come from- Mm â¦ from the joy of that meeting
41:34
with the- Mm â¦ the, the instructor and the horse and, and the, the, the
41:38
person that is riding, the rider.
41:40
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
41:42
Charlotte Wittbom: It's, so then come into the experience where I have now
41:46
where I work with Rachel Gretham, which i- was the previous team
41:51
physio of the British Dressage team.
41:55
To m- be able to â¦ So we do quite a lot of, â¦ We do clinics together
42:01
or demos together to be able to find â¦ Let me rephrase that one.
42:05
Sorry.
42:06
Mm-hmm.
42:06
I'm disappearing out of topic.
42:11
The, the journey f- starting from the beginning in, in p- in the UK of finding
42:16
a way to learn your craft and finding a way to help people to find a different way
42:21
of communicating with the horses as from the ground, the only way of, of I guess
42:29
the, the real curiosity as an instructor to want to find a way for the rider and
42:37
the horse to find a way of, of working better as, as as a communication, but
42:42
also to really understand the biomechanics of the horse, to really understand how
42:48
the little movements that we're doing as when we do haunches around the cone,
42:53
for instance, from the ground, how all that goes in together when you then
42:57
afterwards want to do the perfect flying, flying change or you want to make- Mm
43:02
the perfect canter transition
43:04
To, because this has been a journey for me as well to understand how
43:08
everything works with the muscles, with the fascia- Mm â¦ with the connection
43:13
of the hyoid bones, the tongue.
43:15
Mm.
43:16
Everything that we, that I learned in Portugal, what this part in the
43:20
UK have done is sort of helped me to put the name on and understand
43:27
what happens in the horse's body.
43:30
So I think that, that the, from meeting different kind of people being able
43:35
to, to help people and help myself, I guess, in a way of learning more
43:44
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
43:44
So one of the things which was a revelation for me when I first started
43:50
using that system of in-hand work was I got into it because we wanted
43:56
to cr- create soft collection so that autistic children would get- Mm
44:02
the benefit of oxytocin- Mm â¦ and then be able to communicate.
44:05
Mm.
44:05
Okay, fine.
44:06
What we then saw, of course, was that, which everybody sees when they do this
44:10
work, is that the horses that you do this with suddenly become super horses.
44:16
And they, if you work in the therapy field, you're mostly working with donation
44:23
horses that are coming with messed up bodies and minds because that's the kind
44:28
of horse that people give away in general.
44:30
And we found that we could reverse age these horses.
44:35
Mm.
44:35
Mm.
44:35
We found that we could take horses- Mm â¦ with pretty chronic problems particularly
44:41
in the joints- Mm â¦ or in the soft tissues, and make it look like they just
44:46
never had been there to some degree.
44:49
And- Mm â¦ we could create emotional intelligence in horses.
44:54
This was, this was the thing which was the real revelation to me.
44:58
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
44:58
Mm.
44:58
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you got horses that showed up with
45:01
a kind of a big fat no in them.
45:03
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
45:03
Mm.
45:04
Rupert Isaacson: And you could absolutely understand, you know?
45:07
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
45:08
Rupert Isaacson: And then that no would transfer as you went through these on,
45:11
these patterns- Mm â¦ pa- you know, the, the shoulders around the haunches,
45:14
the haunches around the shoulders- Yeah.
45:15
Mm â¦ and then all the myriad combinations of those.
45:19
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
45:19
Rupert Isaacson: Like a yoga, you know?
45:19
Mm.
45:19
W- you'd find that, we would find that the horses went from no to maybe, to okay, to-
45:29
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
45:29
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: yes.
45:30
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
45:30
Rupert Isaacson: To at your service, madam.
45:32
Like, and, and- Mm.
45:33
Yeah â¦ the, it was almost like a predictable three-month
45:37
process if you, if you started.
45:40
Mm.
45:40
That, that their bodies started to feel so good, but also their minds.
45:43
Yeah.
45:43
And then understanding what we- Mm â¦ understand with the therapy work
45:47
that we do with neuroscience- Mm â¦ is that when you engage the vestibular
45:52
system Which of course happens with horses just like with humans when you
45:58
keep crossing the midline of the body.
46:00
Mm.
46:00
That's all that lateral work- Mm â¦ all those patterns.
46:03
Mm.
46:03
The brain produces a protein when this happens.
46:06
Mm.
46:06
Mm.
46:06
That protein, this amino acid, this protein- Mm â¦ is called BDNF,
46:11
brain-derived neurotrophic factor.
46:13
Mm.
46:14
It's neuroplasticity.
46:15
The brain just effectively- Mm â¦ creates a new brain.
46:18
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
46:18
Rupert Isaacson: And we watched this happen again and
46:21
again and again and again.
46:23
And then of course, we watched it happen with special needs people
46:26
that we taught how to do this.
46:28
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
46:29
Rupert Isaacson: How to do the groundwork as well.
46:30
Yeah.
46:30
That their brains changed just like ours did.
46:32
Yeah.
46:32
And you realize, oh, my gosh, this is sort of-
46:35
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
46:35
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: the way to emotional intelligence in a horse.
46:37
Mm.
46:37
Because if, yeah, if you're gonna go bull fighting on a horse or if
46:41
you're gonna do something like this- Mm â¦ you need the horse to be,
46:45
have a whole different kind of brain-
46:47
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm
46:47
Rupert Isaacson: um, to your regular horse that shies- Yeah â¦ at a dustbin.
46:50
Mm.
46:51
And the, the same horse that shies at a dustbin-
46:53
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
46:54
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: can be the horse that says, "No problem.
46:56
Leave it to me"- Yeah,
46:57
Charlotte Wittbom: yeah
46:57
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: in any given situation.
46:59
Yeah.
46:59
Just like a human.
47:01
Yeah.
47:01
But I don't see this happening so much with training from the saddle- Yeah
47:06
but I really see this happening with training on the ground.
47:09
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
47:09
Yeah.
47:10
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us a little bit about this.
47:12
As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
47:18
a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence,
47:25
either who are professionals in the field.
47:27
Are you a therapist?
47:28
Are you a caregiver?
47:30
Are you a parent?
47:31
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
47:35
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
47:40
I really didn't know what to do.
47:42
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
47:47
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
47:50
Temple Grandin.
47:51
And she told me what to do.
47:53
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
47:57
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
48:02
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
48:06
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
48:11
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
48:16
approach, it's called Movement Method.
48:18
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
48:22
It's almost laughably simple.
48:25
The important thing is to begin.
48:29
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
48:32
Grandin and see what results can follow.
48:36
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
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com Sign up as a gold member.
48:44
Take the online movement method course.
48:48
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48:50
Let us know how it goes for you.
48:52
We really want to know.
48:53
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
48:58
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
49:02
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I think the, when you work the horses from the
49:05
ground, when you slow movements down- Mm â¦ if we think of the first pattern
49:11
of moving haunches around a cone
49:16
Rupert Isaacson: Effectively a sort of shoulders in leg
49:17
yield hybrid in the circles.
49:19
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
49:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
49:19
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
49:20
I would even say that just doing, if you have the four cones, just a
49:25
quarter turn, there's so many little things that are happening in the body.
49:30
So in my experience of, of, of the ground work where you sort of first
49:36
start with the bigger movements, if you think that you move the haunches
49:40
around the cones, full circles, and you do then the, the, the, the two, which
49:46
is the shoulders around the haunches.
49:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
49:49
Charlotte Wittbom: What I'm almost got to realize now with the experience,
49:52
of course, with the help of learning more about the biomechanics and of
49:56
course with working with a lot of different physios, and that'sâ¦
50:01
has been incredible feedback and incredible learning experience for
50:05
me, is that actually it's in the end almost the smaller movements
50:10
that makes that bigger difference.
50:11
If we just take, like, a half halt for instance, if you ask 10 different
50:18
riders, they will probably explain that a little bit differently-
50:21
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
50:22
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: what a half halt is.
50:23
We, we sort of know what a, you know, what, what a half halt is, but if
50:26
you have then a cob or a Thoroughbred or a Lusitanos, Lusitano, and then
50:32
sit on that horse and ask that horse to wait a little bit, you're
50:37
gonna get very different results.
50:39
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
50:39
Charlotte Wittbom: So even to be able to break down for a horse that what is the
50:44
half halt is that you shift the weight to the haunches and then, you know, you,
50:47
you, you, you sort of slow everything down a little bit and you, the horse
50:52
have to tilt their pelvis in a, in a, in order to lift the withers, for instance.
50:57
That half halt is what you get, that kind of same pattern or that kind of
51:03
same happening in the body is what you get in a quarter turn, and then-
51:07
Yeah â¦ the horse goes forward.
51:08
So the ability b- to be able to break things down for the horse and the rider
51:14
in even those, even smaller parts of the jigsaw, it's what makes a huge difference
51:20
afterwards in the bigger picture.
51:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
51:25
I so agree
51:27
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: things that we, and that we think that the horses already
51:33
are pre-programmed to understand what a half halt is, is, is not.
51:39
Some horses will do it easy because they're built uphill
51:42
and they can naturally sort of get themselves in that position.
51:47
But if you have a, a cob for instance or, or another breed
51:51
that is, it is not natural.
51:53
So when you do a half halt, they just either, just the neck comes back f-
51:57
on you or they're just trying to do- Right â¦ something- Yeah â¦ that
52:01
they not really understand.
52:03
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
52:04
Charlotte Wittbom: So it's lots of little th- concepts, a lot of concepts
52:08
is probably the better way to understand it that gets explained from the ground
52:14
in a way that it can't do ridden.
52:15
I- The concept of in- inside leg to the outside rein is another thing as well.
52:20
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about that.
52:22
Why is that-
52:22
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
52:22
Rupert Isaacson: so- How is that ex- introduced on the ground?
52:24
Charlotte Wittbom: Because you're moving the horse away from your
52:27
stick, which is like your prolonged arm, so the horse understand how
52:30
to start and stop with the stick.
52:33
But f- the, the, the concept of the horse being able to move away and moving
52:40
forward for your inside leg, because there, there are a lot of things that
52:44
it's sort of the same cues, but it means a bit different depending on, on, on what
52:49
position we're putting the horses in.
52:50
So in position, I mean where, where we sort of place the pole and the flexion.
52:55
And so I think there's little things like how the, for the horse to
53:00
learn to be able to move forward and moving into an outside connection-
53:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
53:07
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: is also one thing that sometimes some horses, especially if
53:10
they have physical difficulties or it's been injuries or even for the younger
53:15
horses, are a concept that, a- and for riders as well, to understand- Yeah
53:20
what those concepts are.
53:22
So as well as the, of course, the getting the horse more gymnastic
53:27
from the ground, getting the horseâ¦
53:28
I get a lot of people that ask me, "Can you teach my horse piaffe?"
53:31
And I, sort of, always bring them back to the cones first,
53:35
because I need a language.
53:37
Sure.
53:37
I need a con- Absolutely.
53:38
The horse need to be-
53:40
Rupert Isaacson: Well, pattern one- â¦ prepared â¦ plus
53:41
pattern two is the piaffe.
53:42
Yeah.
53:42
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
53:42
Rupert Isaacson: So,
53:42
Charlotte Wittbom: yeah.
53:43
It's a, it's the preparation for it.
53:44
But also, I need to be able to fine comb the horse,
53:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
53:48
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: to understand how the horse is understanding to use,
53:53
how they understand to use themselves.
53:54
Because if I put themself then by that position by the wall between me and the
53:59
wall to do piaffe, if a horse have all the right understandings and, and the correct
54:05
connections and, and the different choices in their head and in their body, then they
54:12
will be able to give me different kind of answers without being stressed about it.
54:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
54:16
Mm-hmm.
54:17
Charlotte Wittbom: So I, I think it's very important, I always say that to my
54:20
clients, that i- if I have, if I know that on this question, if I'm asking
54:26
the horse something, that the horse can, gives me five or different answers,
54:32
then I know- Mm â¦ that the horse have different ways of using their body.
54:36
They know- Mm-hmm
54:37
in their brain that they got different ways of using.
54:40
So it's just different answers I get t- on, on the question and, and
54:45
nothing needs to be wrong, in a way.
54:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
54:48
Charlotte Wittbom: But that's when you then get a horse that is not stressed
54:52
in the situation of, of being in a position where you're then gonna ask
54:56
it to perform movements that would be- before be more flight related or bringing
55:03
in more, more cortisol in the brain.
55:05
Mm.
55:06
So I think it's, it's, it's those little things of even just starting
55:09
with a half turn, half, quarter turn around the cones, being able to move
55:14
forward out of that, going into that again, going forward- Mm â¦ going in.
55:18
That soft movement in the pelvis-
55:21
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
55:21
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: and that soft movement i- in, through the ribcage-
55:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
55:25
Charlotte Wittbom: uh, is- Just as important as the
55:30
full circle, if not more, I
55:32
Rupert Isaacson: think 100â¦
55:32
If not more.
55:33
Yeah.
55:33
Absolutely.
55:34
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
55:34
Rupert Isaacson: Because it's, it's the full circle broken down.
55:36
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
55:37
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it, it's interesting what you talk about slowness.
55:41
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
55:41
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things I love about the in-hand work is it
55:44
happens at the human walking pace.
55:45
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
55:46
Mm.
55:46
Rupert Isaacson: And the human walking pace is the human- Mm â¦ thinking pace.
55:49
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
55:50
Rupert Isaacson: And when you're in riding lessons, even in walk, honestly-
55:54
Mm â¦ you're generally walking faster than the human walking pace.
55:57
Yeah, yeah.
55:57
If you're in trot, you're twice as fast, three times as fast.
56:01
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
56:01
Rupert Isaacson: So our reactions are not there and- No
56:04
s- also we're in a blind spot when we sit on the horse.
56:07
We- Yeah â¦ we can't see.
56:09
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
56:09
Rupert Isaacson: So we can establish feel over some years-
56:12
Mm â¦ but this takes some years.
56:14
Mm-hmm.
56:14
But of course on the ground we can see what's going on.
56:16
Mm â¦ is the head this way or that way?
56:18
Is this leg- Mm â¦ coming under or not?
56:20
Mm-hmm.
56:20
Are the haunches going out if I want them to or not, you know?
56:23
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
56:23
Rupert Isaacson: I, I've got time, and then if, if the answer is no they're
56:26
not, then there's time- Mm â¦ to think, well, okay, what do I do?
56:30
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
56:30
Rupert Isaacson: Rather, "Oh, shit, the corner's coming up.
56:31
Oh my God."
56:31
Yeah, yeah.
56:32
"And the guy's shouting at me."
56:33
Yeah.
56:33
"What did he say?"
56:34
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
56:34
Rupert Isaacson: And then the horses as, also, yes, can slow down.
56:37
And I always feel too that when one is working that way, one's building
56:41
relationship with horses- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
56:43
um, in a way that you can't really from the saddle.
56:47
No, no.
56:47
But it tra- then that r- that tr- relationship translates to the saddle.
56:52
Mm.
56:52
And then finally I think this is just overlooked, any time that a horse is
56:57
trying to learn something- Mm â¦ while at the same time carrying a weight-
57:02
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
57:03
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: that weight is a massive distraction.
57:05
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm, mm.
57:05
Rupert Isaacson: It has to be.
57:07
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
57:07
Rupert Isaacson: So why not slow it down-
57:10
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
57:10
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: allow the horse- Mm â¦ and the human- Mm â¦ to figure
57:14
this thing out together- Mm â¦ without any additional- Variable stresses
57:21
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
57:21
Rupert Isaacson: And then when it's understood-
57:24
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
57:24
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: now we can think, "Well, what would it feel like
57:26
if we added a weight to that?"
57:27
Mm.
57:27
What would it feel like?
57:29
Oh, maybe that feels a bit different.
57:30
Okay.
57:30
Mm.
57:30
Yeah, I've got ti- but I sort of trust the situation now because-
57:34
Yeah â¦ my experiences have been good so far, you know, and
57:37
there's no one yelling because, y-
57:40
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
57:41
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you know, o- one, one so often hears- Yeah â¦ instructors say
57:45
and this is a big red flag for me, you know, "I love horses/dogs/non-humans-
57:51
But I hate humans."
57:53
And it's like, yeah, but- Yeah â¦ you're teaching humans.
57:55
So and if- Yeah â¦ you're yelling at humans- â¦ or if you're not
57:58
sympathetic towards humans, do you not- Yeah â¦ think that the s- stressed
58:03
out human that is sitting on that horse because they're stressed- Yeah
58:08
â¦ because they feel threatened by you-
58:09
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm
58:10
Rupert Isaacson: that that's not going to be- Yeah â¦ noticed by the horse?
58:13
And so if you really love horses, surely-
58:16
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
58:16
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you would adapt your style for humans-
58:20
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
58:20
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: because the horse is gonna feel human fear-
58:24
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
58:24
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and anxiety.
58:26
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
58:26
Rupert Isaacson: So surely real love of horse means- Mm â¦ being as sympathetic
58:31
as possible to the human, you know?
58:33
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
58:33
Rupert Isaacson: So I feel that with ground work, all of
58:37
that is almost like a given-
58:38
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
58:39
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: because it happens slowly.
58:41
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
58:41
Rupert Isaacson: It, it, you don't have to project your voice because if you're
58:45
the instructor, you're normally standing-
58:47
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
58:48
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: two feet away, you know?
58:49
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
58:49
Rupert Isaacson: Everything is Piano, piano.
58:53
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
58:54
Before it goes- But then every- ev- and everyone can do it Yes
58:56
it doesn't matter of any- So true â¦ riding levels at all.
59:01
You, everyone can do it.
59:03
Rupert Isaacson: So
59:03
Charlotte Wittbom: true.
59:04
And, and I also think what's ver- very important to understand is that just like
59:09
us, horses have compensation patterns.
59:12
So we can't help the horse to get stronger.
59:16
Like, for instance, if, if you have a good physio that helps to release
59:22
the, the, the, the tension as soon as that horse sometimes are out in the
59:27
field under saddle again, the horse will just m- use themselves as it
59:33
always have used itself because- Mm
59:35
it doesn't know any other way.
59:38
They, the horses take the easier way.
59:40
So I also, I think with the groundwork what you can do is you can get, go into
59:44
those compensation patterns slowly.
59:51
Mm.
59:52
You can see a bit how the horse is maybe offloading or, or- Mm â¦ how, how the
59:55
horse is, it's you know, struggle or, i- the horse is maybe think, you know, taking
1:00:01
the more difficult path because the body doesn't allow to take it any other way.
1:00:06
And I think this is also another really important thing with the compensate-
1:00:10
because we have to understand all the horse's stiffnesses and
1:00:12
difficulties are there for a reason.
1:00:15
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:00:15
Charlotte Wittbom: To supple a horse is not, is not go in and turn it it's a
1:00:19
bit more stiff to the, find it difficult to turn to the left, and therefore I'm
1:00:23
gonna turn it even more to the left.
1:00:25
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:00:25
Charlotte Wittbom: It's to understand that the stiffnesses are there, and
1:00:30
we have to unpick slowly, and we have to always work with the body first.
1:00:35
Mm.
1:00:35
So when a physio goes in, they don't go in and release everywhere 'cause they
1:00:38
will make the horse lame in that way.
1:00:41
Mm-hmm.
1:00:41
They have to understand its layers, isn't, isn't it?
1:00:44
Mm.
1:00:44
Understand what's important, understand what's there to support the horse.
1:00:49
And that is another thing that I've really learnt and, and, and also
1:00:54
been curious about, how, how the groundwork can help with those things.
1:00:58
As, as helping to change a way of how a horse moves- Mm â¦ and
1:01:04
again, getting that ability.
1:01:05
And the other thing that's so important, I think, with the groundwork is a lot
1:01:09
of people think if you look at natural horsemanship and groundwork, that, you
1:01:12
know, you're moving the horse around, and yes, it's, it's, it's communication,
1:01:16
but for muscles to develop, you al- you need to create the resistance So if we
1:01:24
go back to just moving four cones and a quarter turn, haunches and then straight,
1:01:30
every time I do that quarter turn, I increase the resistance in the body.
1:01:35
And then when the horse goes straight, I take that resistance off.
1:01:39
And then when I do a quarter turn again, I do that.
1:01:41
And then when I slowly then build up that to a full circle, it's the same thing.
1:01:46
I can, I can start with just one circle and then go forward.
1:01:49
And it's that thing of creating resistance and the release, creating
1:01:52
the resistance and then the release that helps the horse, the muscles to develop.
1:01:57
So you need to create resistance as well.
1:02:00
Yeah.
1:02:00
You need to create a posture.
1:02:02
But when you have it from the ground, you can only, because you, we never want
1:02:09
to use force, and I don't think anyone use force y- you know, a, a lot of the
1:02:14
times it's just because we don't have any other way of thinking or, or, or
1:02:18
seeing, you know, any other options.
1:02:21
And therefore w- w- we want, we, we maybe get, becomes too much hand or whatever.
1:02:26
But i- I think with the groundwork, you can only work with what you have,
1:02:31
so the horse will only go into a posture that it can do, and that is
1:02:36
it's so valuable for both the horse and the rider because it means that
1:02:40
I will not go too deep too quickly.
1:02:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:02:43
Charlotte Wittbom: I will not do too much too quickly.
1:02:46
Mm-hmm.
1:02:47
But also that I do have that ability to create the resistance in the muscles-
1:02:54
Mm-hmm â¦ that then of course will help them to strengthen and, and- Mm.
1:02:57
.. and get a better posture.
1:03:00
Rupert Isaacson: So now you're back in the competition world to some degree.
1:03:03
And, Well, yeah, not-
1:03:04
are you competing at the moment?
1:03:05
Charlotte Wittbom: No, I'm not competing.
1:03:06
I've got a horse that's coming over soon that we are hoping for.
1:03:10
Mm-hmm.
1:03:10
I'm not competing, but a lot of my clients now is competitive riders as well
1:03:16
as, as all kind of riders, of course.
1:03:19
But I do think that together with the physios that I worked with, especially
1:03:24
Rachel, but also other physios, with sort of them recommending this w-
1:03:30
working from the ground, I think that- th- th- is definitely interest
1:03:38
and a much more of an understanding from that world as well to, to work.
1:03:44
Because it's a nicer horse to sit on in the end- Mm â¦ when you
1:03:47
have done this, the, the sessions.
1:03:49
Rupert Isaacson: 100%.
1:03:49
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:03:49
Rupert Isaacson: And also a horse that's, that doesn't get injured, hopefully.
1:03:52
Yeah,
1:03:52
Charlotte Wittbom: exactly.
1:03:53
You know?
1:03:53
Because they know how to deal with themselves in the field and
1:03:56
they know- Mm-hmm â¦ they have a better control of themselves-
1:03:59
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:03:59
Charlotte Wittbom: which it is in the, in the end.
1:04:01
And also that again, if we go back to any athlete, if you, if I think even
1:04:08
football players do a bit of Pilates, you know- Mm â¦ it's, it's, it's,
1:04:11
it, it, it's about keeping the, theâ¦
1:04:14
A lot of people know in, in, in competition, in competition
1:04:18
as well that you need to keep things as, as varied as possible.
1:04:23
Rupert Isaacson: And- Right.
1:04:24
And that you know, the, one of the big words at the moment
1:04:26
is- Yeah â¦ tensegrity.
1:04:27
Yeah â¦ and biotensegrity 'cause of course- Yeah â¦ tensegrity comes
1:04:31
from architecture- Yeah â¦ and engineering- Yeah â¦ meaning
1:04:34
how a building hangs together-
1:04:37
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm â¦ from the inside.
1:04:37
Mm.
1:04:37
Rupert Isaacson: And now biotensegrity, meaning how do our muscles, ligaments,
1:04:41
not just our bones keep that sort of tension in relaxation, which is- Yeah
1:04:47
effectively wellbeing.
1:04:49
Yeah â¦ of course, all of this work that you've just described does this.
1:04:52
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:04:53
Yeah, yeah.
1:04:53
Rupert Isaacson: Now, however, you and I both know that the
1:04:55
competition world is a tricky world.
1:04:57
So there's, I always feel that there's dressage, as in dressing a horse-
1:05:03
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:05:03
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: in the, you know, you'll hear Master Louise saying-
1:05:06
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:05:06
Rupert Isaacson: "We, we address the horse now."
1:05:07
And of course what that means in old French, old Norman
1:05:10
French, is to put together.
1:05:13
You can put together- Mm â¦ a salad, a salad dressing.
1:05:15
Yourself, you, you get dressed.
1:05:17
You can cut your epidermis and- Mm â¦ put a dressing on it.
1:05:20
Mm-hmm.
1:05:20
Why always this word?
1:05:22
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
1:05:22
Rupert Isaacson: It just means to put together.
1:05:24
Mm.
1:05:24
So what do we mean when that means of a horse?
1:05:27
Well, it just means going from a long silhouette where you can move
1:05:30
in two dimensions, point A to point B- Mm â¦ to a shorter silhouette
1:05:35
where they put the hind legs under-
1:05:37
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:05:37
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: so that they can move in three dimensions,
1:05:39
and why do they wanna do that?
1:05:40
Well, they do that in nature when they play, when they fight- Mm
1:05:43
and when they flirt.
1:05:44
And very clever people 6,000 years ago went, "Ooh, maybe we could harness that,"
1:05:49
and look- Yeah â¦ one leg goes under and the other leg goes under- Yeah â¦ so
1:05:52
let's create some systems for that.
1:05:53
Yeah.
1:05:54
And we've been doing it ever since.
1:05:55
It's one thing to do that, and that's of course what you've just described.
1:05:58
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:05:59
Rupert Isaacson: And it's a whole other thing to add stress.
1:06:02
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:06:02
Rupert Isaacson: And I feel that one of the difficulties
1:06:05
about competition in any form-
1:06:07
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:06:08
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: is that stress is automatic.
1:06:10
So- You know, i- i- it's anything that not just in the horse world
1:06:18
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm
1:06:18
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: if you go in front of a judge and you're going to be
1:06:21
judged on whether you suck or not-
1:06:25
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:06:25
Rupert Isaacson: that fear is going to be present.
1:06:28
Yeah.
1:06:28
And I re- Mm â¦ you know, when, when I go and I watch a dressage teacher say
1:06:34
something like, "Well, that would only get you a five in front of a judge."
1:06:40
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:06:40
Rupert Isaacson: And you think, "Yes, but the horse doesn't think that way."
1:06:43
The horse thinks-
1:06:44
Charlotte Wittbom: No
1:06:44
â¦ " Rupert Isaacson: Am I doing this thing?"
1:06:48
In harmony with my monkey or not.
1:06:50
And I-
1:06:51
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:06:51
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: kind of want a relationship with my monkey,
1:06:55
but at the same time- Mm â¦ I don't really understand my
1:06:56
monkey, 'cause monkeys are weird.
1:06:58
Mm.
1:06:58
And monkeys eat us, and- Mm â¦ monkeys sit on us, and- Mm â¦ strange things,
1:07:03
and they make us do things that we don't necessarily want to do, but-
1:07:07
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:07:08
Rupert Isaacson: You know, sometimes we do, you know?
1:07:10
Mm.
1:07:10
But you know that the horse, and, you know, and you also know
1:07:12
that the horse isn't thinking of itself as, "I'm a dressage horse."
1:07:16
Mm.
1:07:16
Like-
1:07:16
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:07:16
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: no dressage horse would give a shit whether it pulled a cart or-
1:07:20
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:07:21
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: went to the field or- Yeah â¦ th- there's no self-concept
1:07:24
of- No â¦ you know, "Well, I was in the Olympics last year," you know?
1:07:27
Mm.
1:07:27
They're, they're not gonna say that, but we do.
1:07:30
Mm.
1:07:30
So any time we bring that, what does that mean?
1:07:33
It means we're going to bring cortisol.
1:07:35
We're gonna bring- Mm â¦ the stress hormone.
1:07:37
Mm.
1:07:37
And we're first gonna bring it in our bodies.
1:07:39
I mean, you described- Mm â¦ the feeling of falling apart in
1:07:41
competition even if you did- Mm
1:07:43
well.
1:07:43
Yeah.
1:07:43
I've certainly experienced that.
1:07:45
Yeah.
1:07:45
And I don't think it was particularly pleasant for the horses underneath me.
1:07:48
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:07:49
Rupert Isaacson: Whereas my wife, for example, Liliana, when she shows a horse,
1:07:52
she has a different temperament to mine.
1:07:54
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:07:54
Rupert Isaacson: And it doesn't seem to affect her in the same way.
1:07:57
So I think the horse genuinely has a more pleasurable experience.
1:07:59
So- Mm â¦ I don't think I should show horses.
1:08:01
No.
1:08:01
I think I should be involved with horses in a different way.
1:08:04
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:08:05
Rupert Isaacson: So competition isn't wrong.
1:08:07
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
1:08:07
Rupert Isaacson: However, there is a certain amount of stress that has to
1:08:12
come inevitably- Mm â¦ when humans compare themselves against other humans.
1:08:16
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:08:17
Rupert Isaacson: And then if you add a- an animal to that
1:08:19
who have got no real idea- Mm
1:08:21
about that concept- Mm â¦ how do we make it okay?
1:08:27
Now, I think- Mm â¦ all of the ways that you've just described
1:08:30
do actually make it okay.
1:08:31
Mm.
1:08:31
I think that, and I think that's why the competition people are seeking you out.
1:08:35
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:08:36
Rupert Isaacson: But we do have a, a wider problem here.
1:08:40
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:08:40
Rupert Isaacson: Which is, I think, the public is beginning to notice-
1:08:44
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:08:44
Rupert Isaacson: when horses don't like stuff.
1:08:47
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:08:47
Rupert Isaacson: And we are increasingly being called upon to justify what we do.
1:08:56
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:08:57
Mm.
1:08:57
Rupert Isaacson: Now that you are involved a bit in the competition
1:09:02
world- Mm â¦ in the UK, and I always feel that the UK became so successful
1:09:07
effectively by, in dressage, after years of being unsuccessful- Mm
1:09:11
effectively by out-Germaning the Germans- Mm â¦ which is how the
1:09:15
Germans became very good at eventing.
1:09:17
They got- Mm â¦ what was his name?
1:09:19
Oh, gosh it'll come to me.
1:09:21
Begins with B.
1:09:22
But anyway, British Event are to come in and school them and Bartle.
1:09:26
Mm.
1:09:26
And then they started beating us at event at our own thing.
1:09:29
Yeah.
1:09:29
Now we've started beating them at their own thing.
1:09:31
Yeah.
1:09:31
But we've almost become more German than the Germans, and I'd say that the British
1:09:35
dressage way of riding is pretty harsh.
1:09:37
And I've lived- Yeah â¦ in Germany for eight years teaching and riding and-
1:09:42
Mm â¦ there, and it's pretty harsh.
1:09:45
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:09:45
Rupert Isaacson: It really is.
1:09:46
I mean- Mm â¦ you get people that are not fantastic, of course, but the mindset is-
1:09:53
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:09:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm â¦ unpleasant, you know.
1:09:55
What, so what do we do about this?
1:09:58
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I think, I think good and bad riding is everywhere.
1:10:04
Rupert Isaacson: Without a doubt.
1:10:04
Charlotte Wittbom: So I, I think it's, it-
1:10:06
Rupert Isaacson: Particularly if you look at me, I'm holding up the bad end.
1:10:08
Yeah.
1:10:08
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:10:09
I th- I, I think, you know, I think it, it, I think that,
1:10:18
It's very important to not put too much we and them in a
1:10:22
way if change is gonna happen.
1:10:26
Rupert Isaacson: Of course, of course, of course.
1:10:26
But we know we have a problem here.
1:10:27
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:10:28
A- a- and I agree, and I agree w- with that, and I think
1:10:31
it was quite interesting.
1:10:32
I was interviewing i- in my own podcast Colonel Card, Christian Card.
1:10:39
Rupert Isaacson: Who is?
1:10:40
Charlotte Wittbom: Who, who is the former chief rider of
1:10:43
Cadre Noir in Saumur in France.
1:10:45
He himself is an fâ¦
1:10:47
was an FEI judge.
1:10:49
He competed internationally himself as well, and he was also a, a trainer of the
1:10:57
French team during years where they were very, very successful in the dressage.
1:11:02
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:11:03
Charlotte Wittbom: And I interviewed him, and I took him over here to
1:11:05
the UK and created event where we had a lot of different judges,
1:11:10
a lot of different physios and listened to parts from that podcast.
1:11:15
And I think what he really ha- have right, I mean, what he was saying
1:11:20
is that we need to understand where we c- come from, a culture, in order
1:11:27
to know where we are heading to.
1:11:32
You know, the, the, the reason why we're riding, what are we doing?
1:11:36
And he, in his, i- in this interview, had more questions than answers, and I think
1:11:43
that is so important is the questions.
1:11:46
And I listened to a radio program the other day as well where they would say,
1:11:49
"Where does learning and change happen?"
1:11:52
It's actually not when we get an answer.
1:11:55
It's in the question.
1:11:57
You know a three-year-old that ask, what, "What's that?
1:11:59
Why?"
1:12:00
You know, pointing everywhere, or two and a half, and want to know.
1:12:03
And quite often they are on the next one before they know the
1:12:06
answer of, of what we're saying.
1:12:09
And that learning that, that is the curiosity of, of, of of the subject or
1:12:15
of what we want to learn, that is where, where, where we don't always need the
1:12:23
answers, and it can be 10 different answers to- Mm-hmm â¦ that question.
1:12:27
And I think w-
1:12:28
Rupert Isaacson: But not in the competition world.
1:12:29
In the competition world there's one right, and there's one wrong.
1:12:32
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:12:33
But different judges you will probably get a bit of different bet- between
1:12:38
them- Yeah â¦ and background.
1:12:39
But
1:12:39
Rupert Isaacson: basically, basic- come on, basically the
1:12:41
dressage, sport dressage world-
1:12:43
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
1:12:44
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: through a historical accident is a breed show for warmbloods.
1:12:47
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
1:12:47
Rupert Isaacson: And, I understand
1:12:48
Charlotte Wittbom: fully
1:12:48
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and, and, and it's got to look a certain way.
1:12:51
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
1:12:51
yeah.
1:12:51
Rupert Isaacson: And if it doesn't, not much point going in and-
1:12:55
Yeah â¦ a lot of the people doing the judging- Yeah â¦ aren't very nice.
1:12:58
But,
1:12:58
Charlotte Wittbom: but I,
1:12:59
Rupert Isaacson: I do- You know, so how do we, how do we, how do we get- Yeah, yeah.
1:13:02
I, I like the idea of where you're going with the questions,
1:13:04
but, you know, so, so yeah.
1:13:10
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, but I think we still, we have to continue
1:13:12
asking the questions, I think.
1:13:14
Mm.
1:13:14
Continue creating environment whereâ¦
1:13:17
Because I have a lot of judges as well that I'm, I, I, I, that I'm
1:13:21
t-talking to regularly and everything, and I think the, the main thing
1:13:25
of course, change is difficult.
1:13:28
Of course, it's, it's nothing in the world is, is black and white and is easy.
1:13:33
But I do think that by putting the difficult questions,
1:13:39
what is it that we want?
1:13:40
This is very much from what Colina Card was saying.
1:13:43
Mm.
1:13:43
You know, what, is the competition there to preserve their question
1:13:47
at, or is it there as its own thing?
1:13:51
And I think those questions, to be able to have an open dialogue- Mm
1:13:56
uh, you know, in between FEI themselves or, or, or as an instructor you
1:14:02
say, "Okay, you know, what, whatâ¦
1:14:04
Is this susta-sustainable?"
1:14:06
I always tell m-my clients and also the, the judges I have that when
1:14:12
you see a movement, can you see it's sustainable for the horse?
1:14:16
Well- Mm â¦ is the sustainability there that the horse can last for that work?
1:14:21
Is them in that balance- Mm â¦ that not six months down the line that's
1:14:26
gonna give suspensory problems, but actually the horse can continue working
1:14:30
in that kind of balance and that kind of thing position or whatever.
1:14:34
So I think there's a lot of words and a lot of questions and a lot of difficultâ¦
1:14:38
But that, that is something, as I'm sure you know, and you do, you
1:14:44
question yourself all the time.
1:14:46
You know, is this the right way?
1:14:48
Am I doing this?
1:14:49
Are there more different ways?
1:14:50
So to have, to create an environment where it's safe to have those conversations
1:14:56
are very, very important, I think.
1:14:58
Rupert Isaacson: And is that happening in the
1:14:59
Charlotte Wittbom: competition world?
1:14:59
And we can only start in our little-
1:15:03
I think it does to a certain extent.
1:15:05
Okay.
1:15:05
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no.
1:15:05
So, so talk to me about that.
1:15:06
I, I, I'd like- Yeah â¦ to feel optimistic.
1:15:08
Yeah, I think it does.
1:15:10
So where, where do you notice that happening in the conversation?
1:15:11
Yeah.
1:15:11
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, just the group that I brought together when- Mm
1:15:16
â¦ Colonel Card came over, for instance, were mostly from, it was a lot of competitive
1:15:23
riders, a lot of judges, and there is an openness t- to it to, to different ways.
1:15:31
I think that, like I said, there's always gonna be people that are less
1:15:36
open and people that are more open.
1:15:38
Mm.
1:15:39
I cannot speak for a higher level.
1:15:41
It's my little sphere, so I don't know what's going on in the- Right â¦ the,
1:15:44
Rupert Isaacson: the- I, I guess- â¦ really- â¦ I guess
1:15:46
my question is wha- what is the openness, what are they open to?
1:15:50
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:15:50
Rupert Isaacson: If there's a change happen- happening and, you know, you're
1:15:53
optimistic about this, what is the change-
1:15:57
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:15:57
Yeah
1:15:57
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: in, among the judges and so on that, that youâ¦
1:16:00
Yeah, what, what are they changing towards?
1:16:03
Charlotte Wittbom: I think that just, just having more different ways ofâ¦
1:16:09
If we go back to Portugal-
1:16:12
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:16:12
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: for instance, where they know exactly why they are
1:16:17
riding, they know exactly the, theâ¦
1:16:22
It's in their blood.
1:16:24
They have a history where every- where they they keep to what
1:16:28
was, to the past in a way, if-
1:16:31
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:16:31
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: you know, to what was-
1:16:33
Rupert Isaacson: Tradition.
1:16:33
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, tradition.
1:16:35
They have no identity problems of, of what that tradition, tradition is.
1:16:44
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:16:45
Charlotte Wittbom: If you go to somewhere else where you have a, a a bit more
1:16:50
I don't know, you know, Sweden where, where you sort of everyone rides for
1:17:00
compete because they don't have any other way of, of, of seeing theâ¦
1:17:04
It's, it's what they come from.
1:17:05
They always had it that way.
1:17:07
I read that many, you know, the history lacking often on the ways of, of doing it.
1:17:13
So I think the, the more youâ¦
1:17:16
What I see is that there is an openness of, of change.
1:17:19
I, I don't think no one is not wanting to be a better rider.
1:17:26
I'm sure there are some, but you know, that there is aâ¦
1:17:28
I just think that it's important we create a, a way of communication and
1:17:36
talking and have different kind of views.
1:17:38
Just look at social media at the moment.
1:17:40
We just see what we already approve.
1:17:44
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:17:44
Charlotte Wittbom: What we already like.
1:17:46
What we- Mm â¦ already understand.
1:17:48
Our world is never weâ¦
1:17:50
I don't need to go and meet someone that say that something is black when I think
1:17:56
it's white if I'm not s- seeking it out.
1:18:00
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:18:01
Charlotte Wittbom: So I think that-
1:18:02
Rupert Isaacson: No, I agree.
1:18:02
I, I, no- Yeah â¦ I think everything you're saying is true.
1:18:04
I'm just- Yeah â¦ what I'm curious about is what is the, let's say, is
1:18:09
there a particular positive change that you could point to right now?
1:18:13
Yeah, I think so.
1:18:13
I
1:18:13
Charlotte Wittbom: can
1:18:14
Rupert Isaacson: definitely see it in my world.
1:18:14
But, but could you identify it and you say, "The positive change
1:18:18
that I, Charlotte, see-" Yeah
1:18:20
"currently in the British dressage world is this."
1:18:24
What, what would it be?
1:18:25
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I, I think there is lots of Openness of
1:18:29
groundwork that I- Okay â¦ have seen.
1:18:31
Definitely.
1:18:32
Again, my little world.
1:18:33
I'm not speaking about elite here.
1:18:36
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:18:37
Charlotte Wittbom: There, there's a, there's definitely
1:18:39
openness of the groundwork.
1:18:40
There's definitely an openness of having sustainability in it because- Okay
1:18:45
the horses can last.
1:18:47
It- there's definitely an understanding from physios that we need more bits in
1:18:53
order for the horses to, to improve.
1:18:57
And there is definitely a openness of sitting down and and, Talking, I think.
1:19:06
So yeah, I, I, but I'm, I'm always a pos- I'm very- Yeah â¦ an optimistic person
1:19:11
because I can't go and s- and why am I going to my work in that case if I don't
1:19:16
think that what I'm gonna give- Right.
1:19:19
Rupert Isaacson: And it's
1:19:19
Charlotte Wittbom: so for- â¦ can make a, make a,
1:19:20
Rupert Isaacson: a change I, I, I would agree with you.
1:19:21
And, and so I'm just, really where my que- Yeah â¦ questions are coming from
1:19:24
is curiosity of what are you noticing?
1:19:26
So for example, I'm off on three days from now I'm gonna
1:19:29
go do some workshops in the USA.
1:19:32
And some of those will be-
1:19:34
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
1:19:35
Rupert Isaacson: therapeutic, some of those will be sort of classical
1:19:38
for its own art sort of sake.
1:19:40
Mm-hmm.
1:19:40
And some of, one or two of those will be with sport riders.
1:19:43
And I noticed- Yeah â¦ myself in the last four years maybe, but with
1:19:50
a real acceleration- Mm â¦ in, say, the last two years, that where the
1:19:55
sport riders generally would have been a bit skeptical of me, Yeah
1:20:00
I don't have a sport background, I, you know, the, all the, all the rational
1:20:04
reasons- Mm â¦ that they began to get a lit, some of them, a little curious.
1:20:10
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
1:20:11
Rupert Isaacson: And then perhaps there was a session where something
1:20:15
was made a little easier for them.
1:20:17
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
1:20:18
Rupert Isaacson: And particularly if it, it was something in a difficult
1:20:20
movement like a piaffe, you know?
1:20:22
Like- Mm â¦ so for example, you might often see a horse that's afraid of
1:20:26
the piaffe and a bit cramped and s- Mm â¦ shuffling and, and s- and say, "Look, we
1:20:30
could actually unlock this- Mm â¦ and turn this into the joyful thing that it-
1:20:35
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:20:36
Mm
1:20:36
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: exists in nature.
1:20:37
Mm-hmm.
1:20:37
But in order to do that, we need to dismount, and we need- Yeah
1:20:40
to take it back- Yeah â¦ to the beginning- Yeah â¦ and break
1:20:42
it down into all its little parts as you just described.
1:20:44
Mm-hmm.
1:20:45
Are you up for this?
1:20:46
And generally- Mm â¦ the answer was no, you know?
1:20:48
And then occasionally s- one person would say, "Well, okay," you know?
1:20:52
And you do it, and then there'd be-
1:20:54
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:20:54
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: a good result.
1:20:54
And then so, okay, people say, "Okay.
1:20:56
Well, fine.
1:20:56
Let's, why don't we give it a try?"
1:20:58
Mm.
1:20:58
And then you begin to see the ripples coming out.
1:21:02
So I've, I definitely found that myself, Even up to two years ago, going
1:21:08
around as a dressage dude wearing that hat, if you didn't have a competition
1:21:12
background, people were skeptical of you.
1:21:14
Mm-hmm.
1:21:14
And now, it's almost a plus factor.
1:21:17
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:21:17
Rupert Isaacson: That people are almost getting skeptical of the competition.
1:21:20
It sort of- Yeah â¦ shifted a bit.
1:21:23
Yeah.
1:21:23
Now the danger of that is, of course, 180 degree swings are never good, right?
1:21:27
Mm-hmm.
1:21:27
You always want to hit that spot in the middle.
1:21:29
But I am definitely seeing a recognition-
1:21:33
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
1:21:34
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: that the current way of doing it-
1:21:38
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:21:39
Rupert Isaacson: isn't sustainable.
1:21:40
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
1:21:41
Rupert Isaacson: Not just for horses, but also as an institution.
1:21:44
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
1:21:44
Rupert Isaacson: S- so therefore, why not look for alternatives?
1:21:49
Yeah.
1:21:49
Yeah, yeah.
1:21:50
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:21:51
Rupert Isaacson: As you may know, if you've been following my work,
1:21:53
we are also horsey folk here.
1:21:56
And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
1:22:00
the old classical dressage masters.
1:22:04
This is something which is often very confusing for people.
1:22:07
We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
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1:22:46
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, I, I think in the end of the day, i- i- it's when
1:22:50
you meet a, a, a client or you are teaching, you have to start to be curious.
1:22:57
Mm.
1:22:57
Or I'm first curious of how that person is thinking and- Mm
1:23:02
and want to understand.
1:23:04
Because I think if we have, if I have that understanding or if we have
1:23:08
that understanding, then we can also help with the input that- is possible
1:23:15
to change, if that makes sense.
1:23:18
I- i- i- it's always, again, you're creating something new all the time.
1:23:23
Mm.
1:23:23
I'm not sitting on all the answers.
1:23:26
I'm definitely have a lot of things that I get wrong in my riding.
1:23:31
Mm.
1:23:31
I definitely- Me too â¦ haven't gotten the, the, been on a holy path.
1:23:37
I can't say that this is the, the only path, and this is the path that is
1:23:41
not going, because I can't say that.
1:23:43
I, I, I- Mm â¦ I cannot.
1:23:45
But what I can do is put 10 different people together in the same room that
1:23:50
have completely different pathways and different journeys and different
1:23:54
things, and one has maybe a horse where they feel that they're a bit scared
1:23:59
about, and therefore they hold on a bit extra because they don't know.
1:24:04
And they're probably not even knowing it themselves.
1:24:06
They don't really- Mm â¦ enjoy to sit on that horse.
1:24:08
Mm.
1:24:09
But that is the journey, and competing is the thing-
1:24:12
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:24:12
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: that, that it's in there.
1:24:16
I, I think the only way of, of, of reaching to something different
1:24:22
is that I need to be curious about that person first and see what- Mm
1:24:27
what goes on in their mind, what is it with the horse, what is it with the thing.
1:24:31
And then suddenly you start to have a bit of a conversation, and
1:24:35
you start to say, "Well, should we try this way or the other way?"
1:24:39
And I think this is so important that there is that way because
1:24:44
otherwise it's very easy toâ¦
1:24:46
It becomes a black-and-white argument.
1:24:49
And yes, does the competition world need to change?
1:24:52
Yes, it needs to change, but there's a lot of different things in the world that
1:24:56
needs to change- Sure â¦ at the moment.
1:25:02
You know?
1:25:02
Yeah.
1:25:02
We, we sit in a lot of difficult positions at the moment in all
1:25:06
different- Mm â¦ kind of things.
1:25:09
So i- i- it's important, I think, that it's, it's, i- i-
1:25:13
the curiosity has to come first.
1:25:16
Mm.
1:25:17
And then you can say, "How can we change things?
1:25:20
How can we create something that is a bit more sustainable?"
1:25:24
Mm.
1:25:24
Or there is a bit more things.
1:25:26
Because otherwise it, it's just gonna be more walls and more small
1:25:31
world than what we are looking.
1:25:34
Yeah.
1:25:35
So of course you and I will know that our Instagram or, or Facebook feed will
1:25:40
look very, very different to someone else that is in a, in a Western world or-
1:25:45
Rupert Isaacson: Sure
1:25:46
Charlotte Wittbom: that is in natural horsemanship world or
1:25:48
is in a, a trotting world in- Mm â¦ Sweden or a racing world- Mm.
1:25:54
Mm-mm â¦ or competitive world.
1:25:56
Mm-hmm.
1:25:56
So we don't really know, I think, properly.
1:26:01
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's interesting that you, that's actually
1:26:03
brings up an interesting point.
1:26:04
Mm.
1:26:04
I think, I know, actually, I don't think, and I think you know this
1:26:08
too, that the system from, that came down from Marialva and La GaviniÃ¨re-
1:26:18
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:26:18
Rupert Isaacson: which before that had come from guys in the 17th century-
1:26:22
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
1:26:22
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: like Pignatelli and Delabre- Mm â¦ which before that
1:26:28
had come from guys who'd come over- Yeah â¦ to Italy from Spain because-
1:26:32
Mm â¦ the House of Aragon took over the Kingdom of Naples so they could have
1:26:37
a crack at the papacy, and they did.
1:26:39
Mm â¦ back to the riders before then, back to the trainers, you
1:26:43
know, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:26:44
And you go back to Xenophon and then you go back- Mm â¦ to Kikuli in 1350 BC-
1:26:49
Yeah â¦ and you realize that all these dudes basically been doing the same thing.
1:26:52
And-
1:26:53
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
1:26:53
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: w- we get that inherited line.
1:26:57
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:26:57
Rupert Isaacson: And then you've had this experience, I know, where you realize,
1:27:00
oh, I see, if you do these patterns-
1:27:04
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:27:04
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and you do them on the ground-
1:27:06
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:27:06
Rupert Isaacson: then it can prepare the horse for any discipline at all.
1:27:09
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:27:09
Mm.
1:27:10
Rupert Isaacson: And the horse can be multidisciplinary.
1:27:13
Mm.
1:27:13
And the really good riders, of course, are always multidisciplinary.
1:27:17
To limit oneself to just say, not only am I only a dressage rider, but I'm only
1:27:23
this kind of dressage rider, or not only am I only a Western rider, but I'm only
1:27:27
this sub-discipline of Western pleasure, or not only am I only a race rider- Mm
1:27:33
but I'm only the- You know that all those old masters did the lot.
1:27:39
You look at their books- Mm â¦ and you go, "Oh my gosh, they were training
1:27:42
horses for carriages, for the hunt field, for battle, for parades, for the king
1:27:48
who couldn't ride anymore 'cause he was so sick with gout, so he effectively
1:27:51
needed a, you know, therapy horse."
1:27:53
Mm.
1:27:53
Th- they were doing it all.
1:27:55
And you stand there, Charlotte, you, you, you have the system
1:27:59
at your fingertips- Mm.
1:28:00
Mm.
1:28:00
Mm â¦ I know you do.
1:28:00
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:28:01
Rupert Isaacson: Which is completely multidisciplinary.
1:28:04
So you've, of course it lends itself beautifully to dressage.
1:28:08
Yeah.
1:28:09
Because it lends itself to collection and extension.
1:28:11
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:28:12
Mm.
1:28:13
Rupert Isaacson: But it's so much greater than dressage.
1:28:15
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:28:16
Rupert Isaacson: Because you're like, why are you dressing
1:28:17
a horse in the first place?
1:28:19
Mm.
1:28:19
You dress it so that it can go and do things.
1:28:22
Mm.
1:28:23
One of those things might be a balletic abstract display of
1:28:27
patterns in a rectangular arena-
1:28:31
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:28:31
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: with a person wearing a funny hat.
1:28:33
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:28:34
Rupert Isaacson: Or it could be in front of a bull, or it could be,
1:28:37
it could look like many things.
1:28:38
It could look like working- Mm â¦ equitation.
1:28:40
So you really do, I think, more than most people that I interview-
1:28:44
Mm â¦ truly understand that the root of all the disciplines- Yeah â¦ really
1:28:48
is this old system, you know?
1:28:51
Yeah.
1:28:51
Y- you mostly obviously are gonna be working with dressage-y people or
1:28:58
working equitation-y people and so on.
1:29:00
Mm.
1:29:00
But really anyone could come to you, like, with a jumper.
1:29:03
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
1:29:04
With a, you
1:29:04
Rupert Isaacson: know,
1:29:04
Charlotte Wittbom: and- Anyone.
1:29:05
Yeah.
1:29:05
I get lots of different, Yeah â¦ n- don't need to be competitive.
1:29:08
And if we go back again, I'm gonna be difficult, but- Please â¦ if with,
1:29:14
with the patterns for instance, there will be horses that can never do the
1:29:17
patterns because of you know, injuries or because of, of, of things as well.
1:29:24
So I think, again, it's one of those things.
1:29:26
You have a method, but-
1:29:27
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:29:28
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: but y- you will have to always adapt depending on the-
1:29:32
Yeah â¦ situation and bring inâ¦
1:29:34
So in the end of the day, what we want is, is the, to equip, of course, people
1:29:39
with as many different ways of working their horses as possible, as well as- Mm
1:29:43
for the horses to have a, a method that works for them and, and a way that works.
1:29:47
But I think- In the end of the day, it's the communication, and that looks
1:29:54
different from everyone and what that goal is of being in a environment
1:30:01
where, where it makes sense what we are doing and why we're doing things.
1:30:06
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:30:07
Charlotte Wittbom: It, it's just as important.
1:30:10
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you bring it down to curiosity and communication,
1:30:14
which is really relationship, right?
1:30:15
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
1:30:16
Rupert Isaacson: Here's a thing which definitely stands out in the dressage
1:30:19
world and I think this can also be true down a bit in Portugal, is people take
1:30:24
it really fucking seriously, right?
1:30:26
Hmm.
1:30:27
And they do forget that they're monkeys with ponies.
1:30:29
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
1:30:30
Rupert Isaacson: And that one of the reasons for this historically was that
1:30:34
in Europe in particular, Northern Europe the whole classical riding thing was
1:30:41
imported originally- Hmm â¦ from Asia.
1:30:45
Hmm.
1:30:45
And anything that needs to be imported is expensive, so the
1:30:48
Greeks who brought it in from P- Hmm
1:30:50
Persia- Hmm â¦ had to bring in the Persian teachers, the Persian horses,
1:30:55
the equipment, da, da, da, da, da.
1:30:57
So of course only the wealthy could do it.
1:30:59
Hmm.
1:30:59
So from, well, 400, 500 BC, in Europe it's been associated with status.
1:31:07
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
1:31:08
Rupert Isaacson: In- to the point that in the Roman Senate- Hmm â¦ you could
1:31:11
only be a senator if you were part of the equestrian class, which meant- Hmm
1:31:16
that you had the ri- enough land, basically, to keep horses.
1:31:19
Hmm.
1:31:19
But then of course down in somewhere like Portugal and Spain where you had
1:31:25
an indigenous type of very good horse- Hmm â¦ with tribes down there who
1:31:28
were just riding these horses and- Yeah â¦ now then the Romans and the
1:31:31
Greeks show up and go, "Wow, these horses are better than the Persian horses.
1:31:34
Amazing.
1:31:35
Let's, you know, let's import that again."
1:31:37
Mm-hmm.
1:31:37
Y- and then you go down to Spain and Portugal and okay, the pe-
1:31:41
it's just the local guys doing it- Mm-hmm â¦ having a wonderful time.
1:31:44
However, there's stillâ¦
1:31:46
And, and, and there you might find a bit more lightheartedness.
1:31:49
Hmm.
1:31:49
One of the things, though, I think is often missing-
1:31:53
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm
1:31:53
Rupert Isaacson: you know, people talk about lightness a lot.
1:31:55
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
1:31:56
Rupert Isaacson: You and I both know that the system that you're using
1:31:58
creates lightness- Hmm â¦ for sure.
1:32:00
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
1:32:01
Rupert Isaacson: But I don't believe it's possible to ride with
1:32:04
lightness if you're heavy of heart.
1:32:06
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
1:32:06
Rupert Isaacson: And what I mean, not you're heartbroken or something.
1:32:09
Charlotte Wittbom: Hmm.
1:32:09
Rupert Isaacson: But if you're generally- a bit of a bitter, heavy person that
1:32:16
horses themselves are quite like- That's
1:32:18
Charlotte Wittbom: very judgmental, Rupert.
1:32:19
Rupert Isaacson: Well, indeed.
1:32:20
Indeed.
1:32:21
But it's, itâ¦
1:32:22
Let's say it's discerning because, because it- Very
1:32:24
Charlotte Wittbom: judgmental.
1:32:25
Rupert Isaacson: Because, because one observes this, you know.
1:32:28
One observes that there's an awful lot, n- come on, there's a lot of judgmentalism
1:32:32
in the horse world, and you can't be a light rider if you're judgmental.
1:32:36
You can't be light in anything if your heart is not light.
1:32:40
It, because the horse is gonna feel that.
1:32:42
As you say, it's communication.
1:32:44
So- Yeah â¦ so I guess that is in a, in a funny way my, my next question
1:32:49
to you, is observing that, and you and I both know that this is true.
1:32:55
How I think this is one of the problems with sustainability.
1:32:59
I think that the- Mm
1:33:00
heavy-heartedness and the sort of status projecting thing with horses is beginning
1:33:07
to make our culture non-sustainable.
1:33:10
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:33:11
Rupert Isaacson: We aren't sympathetic really to the outsider
1:33:14
who looks at us very much.
1:33:15
Mm.
1:33:16
Except sometimes.
1:33:17
As you say, if you go down to the Golga Horse Fair, if you go
1:33:19
to an Irish horse fair, suddenly it all feels very light-hearted.
1:33:23
But you and I both know, if you enter a dressage arena, it does not feel
1:33:26
or look light-hearted at all, and no one is making fart jokes and dancing
1:33:32
around doing silly things, and if they do they might not be invited back.
1:33:37
So that I do think is actually a bit of a problem, and you kn- you
1:33:42
have this correctly observed that-
1:33:46
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:33:46
Rupert Isaacson: communication and relationship and curiosity are key.
1:33:52
And we also know that when we look at horses, they behave in
1:33:55
this rather light-hearted way.
1:33:57
They don't take life very seriously.
1:34:00
They're playful.
1:34:01
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:34:01
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:34:01
But there isn't a lot of playfulness to the whole dressage thing at the moment.
1:34:07
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
1:34:08
Rupert Isaacson: No.
1:34:08
Do you think that'sâ¦
1:34:10
I don't think that's judgmental.
1:34:11
I think that's just observational.
1:34:13
I would love to see more light-heartedness and playfulness in it.
1:34:18
I think it'd be nicer for the horse.
1:34:19
Yeah.
1:34:20
How do you- Yeah â¦ see, 'cause y- you, you really learned that
1:34:25
system that does bring joy.
1:34:27
How do you see that changing, and how do you see bringing that
1:34:32
lightness of heart in to things?
1:34:36
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, again, I don't think that if people are not l- we
1:34:41
all have our different ghosts in our-
1:34:45
Rupert Isaacson: Naturally
1:34:48
Charlotte Wittbom: I- in our, and again, we don't know what
1:34:52
any person have gone through
1:34:54
Rupert Isaacson: Sure
1:34:55
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: and is going through
1:34:56
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed Everyone has their fires to put out,
1:34:58
Charlotte Wittbom: for sure That is, so I, so yes.
1:35:02
So we don't know.
1:35:03
So I think, again, in my own picture, I think always when I go into environment
1:35:09
where I feel that you, you, you feel a bit of a difficult atmosphere or a difficult-
1:35:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:35:16
Charlotte Wittbom: um, situation, or you see that this person is not
1:35:21
really enjoying it, you have to start with, with empathy, I think first.
1:35:29
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed
1:35:30
Charlotte Wittbom: And, and curiosity again, asking, because we, we
1:35:39
don't know what's going on inside.
1:35:43
And I think that the, in many ways, lessons is a bit of therapy at the same
1:35:47
time as it is about learning new methods.
1:35:50
But it's very much- Mm â¦ a- also about understanding yourself because
1:35:55
quite often if we not put words on difficult emotions in, in in ourselves-
1:36:03
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:36:03
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: we will not be aware that they exist, and then it's
1:36:07
q- quite easy to project instead.
1:36:10
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:36:11
Charlotte Wittbom: And that projection can be on your partner or, or,
1:36:14
or on your horse, or- Or yourself
1:36:18
instructor or yourself or whatever.
1:36:20
Mm.
1:36:20
So I think again, it's, it's, it's we're much more complex human
1:36:26
beings and much more difficulty.
1:36:28
And to be perfectly honest, the ones I meet are Quite often if you ask
1:36:34
how are you a- show a bit of, of care first, that goes a long way.
1:36:42
Rupert Isaacson: Of course.
1:36:43
Charlotte Wittbom: So I, I, I do think that, I, I do think, yes, to
1:36:46
bring a bit of joy is important, and of course I'm fully agreed that it's
1:36:51
important we make that two things.
1:36:54
But in the competition world, or not competition world-
1:36:57
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:36:57
Charlotte Wittbom: In, in, I mean, in the competition now they've started to do this
1:37:01
competing with a, without the bridle, and-
1:37:03
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:37:03
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: there are many different ways working equitations.
1:37:07
I think here in the UK they're quite good to make- Mm â¦ you know, a lot of fun,
1:37:11
funny, fun things, competition of where you dress in different ways and you- Mm.
1:37:17
You know, there is something for everyone.
1:37:19
But I do th- I, I do think that, it, it's a difficult subject because we don't know
1:37:24
what the person is going through- I have
1:37:27
Rupert Isaacson: a theory about why it's so difficult â¦ yeah, yeah.
1:37:29
It, well, it comes out of the military.
1:37:31
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:37:32
Rupert Isaacson: So, while we practice this beautiful art-
1:37:35
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:37:36
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: what we also know is that, and horses can really
1:37:38
heal, obviously that's my world.
1:37:40
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah,
1:37:41
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:37:41
But we also know they can really harm.
1:37:43
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:37:44
Rupert Isaacson: Most of the, not through the fault of the horse-
1:37:46
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
1:37:47
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but how the horse has been used.
1:37:48
So we know that most of the greatest acts of human criminality-
1:37:53
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:37:54
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: from human to human have been done either on
1:37:56
the back of a horse or from ships.
1:37:59
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:37:59
Rupert Isaacson: So that's generally been how it's done- Mm
1:38:02
because that's mobility.
1:38:03
Mm.
1:38:03
I can come from my place to your place with maybe better technology- Mm â¦ which
1:38:09
in this case might be the horse.
1:38:10
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:38:11
Rupert Isaacson: And, you know, mess you up.
1:38:14
Mm.
1:38:14
And take your shit.
1:38:15
And it's very interesting.
1:38:17
I did a, a, not a podcast, but a conversation about the German
1:38:24
the training manual HDV 12- Mm
1:38:26
which is published by Xenophon Press.
1:38:29
Mm.
1:38:29
And I know Richard Williams, the publisher very well, he's a great guy,
1:38:32
and he said, "You know, Rupert, you really should look at this book 'cause
1:38:35
there's a lot of good stuff in there."
1:38:36
And, you know, as a sort of recovering German instructor, I
1:38:41
thought- Yeah â¦ yes, I should.
1:38:42
So I, I, I, I looked into it and it was indeed, there was, indeed
1:38:45
a lot of great stuff in there.
1:38:47
Mm.
1:38:48
And, and there was effectively how to prepare for genocide in there.
1:38:55
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:38:56
Mm, mm.
1:38:56
Rupert Isaacson: And there was, I partic- This is the sort of writer saying- Mm
1:39:02
â¦ "I participated in these genocides."
1:39:04
Mm.
1:39:04
And between the lines it was kind of good fun.
1:39:07
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm, mm, mm.
1:39:08
Rupert Isaacson: And the pictures were of guys in
1:39:13
the Wehrmacht uniforms, you know- Yeah â¦ coming, and, and if you were, like, you
1:39:17
know, a Russian peasant looking at that coming over the hill- Mm-hmm â¦ you
1:39:20
knew what was gonna happen to you.
1:39:22
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
1:39:22
You know?
1:39:23
Rupert Isaacson: And, okay, my own family, colonials, we did tons of bad shit.
1:39:31
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:39:31
Rupert Isaacson: We just know about it- Mm-hmm â¦ and I guess
1:39:35
express some sort of regret.
1:39:37
There was nothing in that book-
1:39:40
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:39:40
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: that even for, like, a second kind of went, "You know, maybe that
1:39:45
was kind of, you know, we were young then.
1:39:47
We didn't know, okay?
1:39:48
We were stupid."
1:39:49
Mm.
1:39:49
You know, blah, blah, blah.
1:39:50
There wasn't empathy.
1:39:51
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
1:39:52
Rupert Isaacson: And I've stood in those arenas with the Prussian cavalry
1:39:56
officers yelling and screaming.
1:39:57
There's no empathy.
1:39:58
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
1:39:59
Rupert Isaacson: Zero.
1:39:59
No.
1:40:00
Zero.
1:40:00
Mm.
1:40:01
In fact, there's a desire to hurt.
1:40:02
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:40:03
Rupert Isaacson: There's sadism, pure and simple.
1:40:05
Yeah, yeah.
1:40:05
Right?
1:40:05
And it, and they were hurt.
1:40:07
They've inherited, they were traumatized as kids- Yeah,
1:40:09
yeah, yeah â¦ as, as you say.
1:40:10
You know, sure, of course, but the so that's kind of what I
1:40:12
mean by breaking that culture.
1:40:13
Yeah, yeah.
1:40:14
And I sometimes think that the only way you can break that culture is,
1:40:16
is the, the greatest act of rebellion really is silliness- Mm â¦ humor.
1:40:21
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:40:22
Rupert Isaacson: Dancing around in a clown costume and farting, you know?
1:40:25
Mm.
1:40:25
Just to say it isn't that fucking serious.
1:40:28
Mm.
1:40:28
And if we make it that serious outside of the military context as well-
1:40:33
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
1:40:33
Rupert Isaacson: then in a funny way, we bring all those ghosts with.
1:40:39
And I think that's- Mm, mm â¦ really what's biting our culture
1:40:41
in the butt really, is that-
1:40:43
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:40:43
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: it looks that way.
1:40:45
We still dress up- Mm â¦ kind of in the military uniforms.
1:40:48
We still talk to each other that way.
1:40:52
We still yell at each other.
1:40:53
We still shame each other for doing the wrong thing in the arena.
1:40:57
I've observed that- Mm â¦ more than I've observed the other stuff.
1:41:02
Now, you are an exception.
1:41:04
I've observed you teaching.
1:41:06
Mm-hmm.
1:41:06
You are, without a doubt, one of the most empathetic people
1:41:08
I know in the whole industry.
1:41:10
Mm.
1:41:10
That's why I asked you to come on the show, you know?
1:41:12
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:41:12
Rupert Isaacson: So I'm not in any way projecting that on you.
1:41:16
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
1:41:16
Rupert Isaacson: I know that you are the absolute opposite of that.
1:41:20
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:41:21
Rupert Isaacson: It's, I'm just curious to know-
1:41:23
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
1:41:24
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: that you've observed what I've observed and- What do you
1:41:29
see as our way forward and out of it?
1:41:31
Mm.
1:41:31
Like, I think we need a big old dose of silliness.
1:41:34
I do.
1:41:35
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:41:36
Rupert Isaacson: I think we take it far too seriously, butâ¦
1:41:38
And I don't think we necessarily would need to give up accuracy
1:41:43
and the dedication to the art.
1:41:45
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
1:41:46
Rupert Isaacson: But we just might look at it through a different lens.
1:41:48
I don't know.
1:41:49
You know, you're involved in the field.
1:41:51
You are a super empathetic human.
1:41:53
Mm-hmm.
1:41:53
You know, I have so much respect for you, Charlotte.
1:41:55
Mm.
1:41:55
You know, I, I know how kind you are.
1:41:57
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
1:41:58
Thank you.
1:41:58
Rupert Isaacson: You know, just talk, speculate with me here.
1:42:01
Talk to me about where we might go in the next 20, 30 years with all this.
1:42:06
Charlotte Wittbom: I wish I would know.
1:42:07
I, I, I think the only thing that I see at the moment is work from
1:42:11
the little corner, if everyone w- for where I am in a way of- Mm
1:42:15
of, of havingâ¦
1:42:16
The more ways you have to see things, the more different ways of you have of
1:42:23
Understanding yourself and people come for the others.
1:42:31
And I do think there is a way of, of there's, there's always
1:42:35
gonna be difficulties, but yeah.
1:42:37
I, I don't know if I know how that could, how the world could be different.
1:42:43
I, I just do think, think, I just think that if we have a safe environment to
1:42:49
talk about the difficult thing where we, where the person, whoever that
1:42:55
is Is not put in a situation where it becomes a defensive situation
1:43:04
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:43:04
Mm-hmm
1:43:04
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: the more, the better it will become for
1:43:09
both the rider and the horse.
1:43:11
I don't know how to put it in any other way.
1:43:14
I say from
1:43:14
Rupert Isaacson: my- Well, does it, does it, does it come
1:43:16
down to the relief of pressure?
1:43:20
Yeah.
1:43:20
And does the relief of pressure come down to the work in hand?
1:43:25
Because the work, is the work in hand the relief of pressure
1:43:29
for the horse from the rider?
1:43:32
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:43:32
Rupert Isaacson: Definitely.
1:43:33
And is the work in hand the relief for the rider from being judged on your riding?
1:43:38
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:43:38
I definitely think that is one of the answers.
1:43:41
Mm-hmm.
1:43:41
Definitely.
1:43:43
Because you, again, when you can see things from a different angle
1:43:48
and understand it out of a different perspective- Mm-hmm â¦ you then get
1:43:53
more humble that there are many other ways of seeing and understanding ways.
1:43:59
Of course then, you know, with the money in the sport and with that
1:44:04
kind of pressure, that creates- Mm-hmm â¦ its own problem, as it
1:44:07
does everywhere else in the world.
1:44:09
Mm-hmm.
1:44:10
Mm-hmm.
1:44:10
Mm-hmm.
1:44:10
So I don't, I think we can't be na- be naive and think that that is not
1:44:14
a huge factor in, in it all also.
1:44:19
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:44:19
Charlotte Wittbom: That th- the money and the pressure of that rather
1:44:22
than that it's all in the riders.
1:44:25
I think also there's, it's, it's, it's much more complex than, than that.
1:44:31
Also, if you just think of the ordinary rider that put enormous amount of
1:44:35
money, putting enormous amount of time- Mm-hmm â¦ putting enormous
1:44:40
amount of perhaps family time Mm-hmm
1:44:43
with the horses, i- i- it's, it's a complex, difficult scenario, isn't it?
1:44:51
Mm-hmm.
1:44:51
Because it's, what should all this then, you know, what, what is the,
1:44:59
what answers will I get from that?
1:45:01
Or what is it, what needs inside me- Mm-hmm â¦ am I fulfilling with with this?
1:45:08
So i- it's, it's, it's a, it's very, very difficult in that sense.
1:45:13
But yes, ground work of course will be a, a think it's a, a good way if, ifâ¦
1:45:19
That, I feel, is my mission a little bit.
1:45:21
Yeah.
1:45:21
If I could get as many people to understand and be able to use ground
1:45:26
work, whatever form, you know.
1:45:27
That is many different kind of- Mm-hmm.
1:45:29
Mm-hmm â¦ ways.
1:45:29
Natural horsemanship or whatever method it is I think that it's,
1:45:35
it's one of the little missions I have here in, in my little corner.
1:45:40
Rupert Isaacson: Listening to you talk, a couple of ideas come to mind.
1:45:43
Mm-hmm.
1:45:45
I wonder if what we actually need, you're talking to judges.
1:45:47
See, I don't really talkâ¦
1:45:48
I do, I talk to a few judges, but I don't think they've probably listened
1:45:51
to me . But they might listen to you.
1:45:53
What I could see really helping might be something like, or per- maybe I
1:45:59
should rephrase this as a question.
1:46:01
Do you think it would help if, let's say in a, in a score, a dressage score-
1:46:08
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:46:08
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you got points for horsemanship?
1:46:12
So for example, you got points for, let's say you mess up.
1:46:17
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:46:17
Rupert Isaacson: How did you recover from the mess up?
1:46:20
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:46:20
Rupert Isaacson: Did you recover from the way, the mess up in a way that
1:46:24
actually kind of helped your horse?
1:46:26
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
1:46:26
Mm.
1:46:26
Rupert Isaacson: And you get awarded points for that.
1:46:28
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:46:28
Yeah.
1:46:29
Rupert Isaacson: And if you were awarded points for, Let's say your
1:46:40
groundwork was also looked at before you- Mm â¦ got in the saddle or something.
1:46:45
Yeah, yeah.
1:46:46
Or some, some sort of preparatory thing.
1:46:48
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:46:49
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe it's long-reining this, and then
1:46:50
you got some points for that.
1:46:52
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:46:52
Rupert Isaacson: And if you, so you, you're not just the sort
1:46:55
of performance of the ballet.
1:46:57
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
1:46:58
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder if then people and horses would
1:47:01
feel less cortisol going in-
1:47:04
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:47:05
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and therefore could move more joyously.
1:47:08
Mm.
1:47:08
Because you're not worried, "Okay, if I mess up, I'll still get some
1:47:11
points 'cause, you know, maybe Iâ¦"
1:47:12
You know, that alone could be very reassuring.
1:47:15
Do do we need to look at things like that?
1:47:18
Charlotte Wittbom: Oh, yeah.
1:47:18
I'm sure there are many different ways we could look of how we, what
1:47:22
we reward and why we reward things- Mm â¦ and what we should reward.
1:47:26
And also, in the end of the day, of course, the, the judges, they
1:47:32
have their own background histories and, and their own journey, so
1:47:36
for, it's very diff- difficult to be objective about anything- Mm
1:47:41
in life.
1:47:41
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:47:42
Charlotte Wittbom: So we have those difficulties as well.
1:47:44
I think what was quite interesting was Colonel Card brought up that he
1:47:48
thinks that AI could be something to be used in judging to, you know,
1:47:53
check the, the regularity movement and that they are still natural movement.
1:47:59
So there are, I think, many different ways as, as that, but I do think, I, I
1:48:05
understand what you're trying to wh- wh- to get to, that there is that to bring
1:48:11
that joy of, of being able to see the, the the process rather than the result there
1:48:19
I think definitely there could be I- Mm
1:48:21
really important.
1:48:22
And I always say that as well.
1:48:24
We have to remember that the process, it's much more important than the result in
1:48:30
it- Mm â¦ because it's the, the process is where we have that true development.
1:48:35
And to be perfectly honest, a lot of the people I meet that, that they, you
1:48:40
know, they have the dressage to music, they have lots of- Different ways that
1:48:46
are, are joyous and fun and a, a party around it and those kind of things I think
1:48:52
also could you know, we have the cure of course in, if we think of the norm, but
1:48:57
here in the UK they also do a lot of just dressage to music in the lower levels.
1:49:02
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:49:03
Charlotte Wittbom: Which is, i- it's a nice way of being relaxed because it's
1:49:06
music and the horse, you can- Mm-hmm
1:49:07
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: put the test-
1:49:08
Charlotte Wittbom: And
1:49:08
Rupert Isaacson: it definitely relaxes horses, yeah.
1:49:09
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:49:09
And you can put the test up as it works for you, you and the horse.
1:49:14
Mm-hmm.
1:49:14
So you, you make your own program.
1:49:16
You just need to have a certain n- amount of the, the movements that are necessary.
1:49:21
So there are many different ways or, or, and paths we can go.
1:49:24
A- so yeah, I, I- Mm â¦ I agree that there is definitely ways of, or different
1:49:31
ways of looking at it, and I'm sure there's a ways that you could improve it.
1:49:37
Rupert Isaacson: Your Colonel Card that you, you're coming back to, you're,
1:49:40
you're- Mm â¦ you're clearly a fan.
1:49:43
Yep
1:49:43
are you doing more work?
1:49:45
Is there gonna be more collaboration with him and-
1:49:48
Charlotte Wittbom: Eh, no.
1:49:50
I think this was hisâ¦
1:49:51
So the podcast I'm running, I'm doing portraits with-
1:49:54
Mm â¦ of the different masters.
1:49:56
We- I've done Master Luis Valenza, Mm.
1:49:59
Done late Steven Clark and I did Ferdie Alberg and obvious- Colonel Card.
1:50:04
So it's like a portraits where they can in their own words make
1:50:09
tell their life and their history- Mm â¦ and their story in the way
1:50:13
that they want it to be remembered,
1:50:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:50:16
â¦ Charlotte Wittbom: I think.
1:50:17
So the reason I got into that was when late Steven Clark, when
1:50:22
we found out that he was ill-
1:50:27
That I just thought there are so many voices that are disappearing.
1:50:30
And- 100% â¦ again, if we go back to what's so important,
1:50:34
we need to listen first.
1:50:36
Yeah, indeed.
1:50:36
And listening to these stories and understanding where people
1:50:40
come from and how, you know, the, the, the process of becoming a, a
1:50:45
grandmaster or becoming a good rider or just become a human being- Mm
1:50:50
it's very, very interesting and very, very important.
1:50:53
So there will come more people, but not Colin Alcard, he said this
1:50:58
is was the last thing he, he ha- will do for the equestrian world.
1:51:03
So w- there will be other, other people on it instead.
1:51:06
Rupert Isaacson: Back to Stephen Clarke.
1:51:08
Mm.
1:51:08
You know, again, obviously a man that you forged a very creative
1:51:14
relationship with there- Mm-hmm
1:51:15
and had a lot of regard for each other.
1:51:18
What was his reaction to all of the in-hand work?
1:51:23
Charlotte Wittbom: Oh, he, he was so positive.
1:51:25
So positive.
1:51:27
And I think, I'm sure you agree to that, when you speak with any person that
1:51:33
have that wealth of knowledge, it's and understanding how humble they all
1:51:39
are and how they all are still learning
1:51:45
Rupert Isaacson: So, y- yeah, he, he was there sort of at the center of the
1:51:49
British dressage world to some degree.
1:51:50
Yeah.
1:51:51
Yeah â¦ and he encountered you, Yeah â¦ and of course he would have
1:51:53
been aware of, you know, that tradition.
1:51:55
Yeah.
1:51:55
Was he in the process of trying to bring that more into the
1:51:59
mainstream- Yeah â¦ of training?
1:52:00
Yeah.
1:52:01
He was.
1:52:01
Okay.
1:52:01
Charlotte Wittbom: He opened a lot of doors, and he definitely opened a lot
1:52:05
of doors, and then definitely have helped me to come into this world.
1:52:10
And was very, very curious about it, and I used to teach, I'm
1:52:14
still go- teach at his yard.
1:52:16
And he always sat in the corner and and looked at these lessons.
1:52:21
So his clients had groundwork sessions as well f-
1:52:24
Rupert Isaacson: from me.
1:52:24
Did he, did he speculate on how that could be brought in more to the mainstream
1:52:29
with the sort of state-sponsored money?
1:52:31
You know, w- when you look at how the teams here or in Germany or wherever,
1:52:36
you know, it's, it, it comes down to government money at the end of the day.
1:52:38
Mm-hmm.
1:52:38
In, in the US as well.
1:52:40
Yeah.
1:52:40
Taxpayer money gets used- Mm â¦ to create a team.
1:52:43
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm-hmm.
1:52:43
Rupert Isaacson: When y- people like him at that level are thinking along those
1:52:46
lines- Mm â¦ were there conversations about how could we bring this in to,
1:52:52
Charlotte Wittbom: Not, not in that way more than that, you know, the,
1:52:57
there were articles written- Mm
1:52:59
about us two together, and opening doors to people that, that could you know,
1:53:05
help the groundwork to be a part of, of, of the bigger scene in many ways.
1:53:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:53:11
Charlotte Wittbom: So, yes, he, he, he definitely.
1:53:14
I wouldn't know what he privately thought or- Mm â¦ or that.
1:53:18
But I think, again, if you go back to it's, it, it, it's again the
1:53:25
communication of creating something creating something and, and the
1:53:29
curiosity of how other systems or methods could work and how that will benefit.
1:53:35
And of course, the work I'm doing with Rachel, the reason I got in touch
1:53:38
with Rachel was because she saw her-
1:53:44
clients' horses were doing so much better.
1:53:50
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:53:50
Charlotte Wittbom: And because of the work.
1:53:52
So that's how that get, got intoâ¦
1:53:55
See that the horses work and can do the job easier.
1:53:59
That is- Mm â¦ w- what, what then really make people curious about
1:54:05
understanding of, of this way of working.
1:54:09
Rupert Isaacson: So s- people listening might be thinking,
1:54:12
"Okay, look, I'm, I'm, I'm sold.
1:54:13
I'd really like to learn this."
1:54:15
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm
1:54:15
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but they might still have a little question in the back of
1:54:17
their mind- Mm â¦ which is, "I could see how it will help my horse's wellbeing.
1:54:23
I could see how it would help- Yeah â¦ me to train my horse to do things."
1:54:28
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:54:28
Rupert Isaacson: But how will it help me as a rider?
1:54:31
I think I get this a lot, this question, and, you know,
1:54:35
I have my own answers to it.
1:54:37
Mm.
1:54:37
Mm.
1:54:37
But I'd be very curious to hear yours.
1:54:39
So, you know, because I'm al- like you, I'm often saying, "Hey, listen, if we, if
1:54:42
we really wanna get here, if you're here, we actually have to- Yeah â¦ dismount,
1:54:48
and then do it here- Yeah â¦ and then do it here and there, and here's
1:54:51
why," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:54:52
But give us the Charlotte- Yeah.
1:54:54
Yeah â¦ Vitum of why.
1:54:54
Yeah.
1:54:55
Why, why is it gonna improve your riding?
1:54:58
Charlotte Wittbom: I, I always say that I, from the ground,
1:55:00
create the horse I want to ride.
1:55:03
You create the horse you want to ride.
1:55:06
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:55:06
Charlotte Wittbom: As easy as that.
1:55:08
You create a horse that is, have a good posture, that is supple, that
1:55:13
is a bit more comfortable that is happier to, to communicate, and also
1:55:19
helps you to have that little bit of, of understanding beforehand.
1:55:24
So that is what I would say.
1:55:27
You c- you create the horse you want to ride, and then when you ride, you can,
1:55:31
if that is then to go for a nice hack, or if that is to go out on a obstacle
1:55:38
course, or if that is to ride a novice test or a prelim or a Grand Prix, that
1:55:45
horse, we're gonna be h- find it easier to put the work in where we create the, you
1:55:54
know, the- The understanding and the horse want to do with their groundwork first.
1:56:00
So yeah- Mm â¦ to create the horse that you want to ride
1:56:03
really is the best outcome.
1:56:04
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I often say I, I create the horse
1:56:06
that forgives me my mistakes.
1:56:08
Charlotte Wittbom: Yes.
1:56:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:56:09
Charlotte Wittbom: Exactly.
1:56:09
Rupert Isaacson: So, you know, I'll ride in to do something, and
1:56:12
I'm â¦ I- I wanna do this thing.
1:56:14
I wanna do this- Yeah â¦ passage or something, and then I kind of- Yeah
1:56:17
am sitting wrong, and I do it shitly.
1:56:19
And my horse goes, "You know what?
1:56:20
I don't care.
1:56:21
I know what you mean."
1:56:22
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
1:56:22
" Rupert Isaacson: I'm go- I'm just gonna do it anyway."
1:56:24
And I'm so- And I need to- â¦ humbled by that when my horses do
1:56:27
Charlotte Wittbom: that â¦ Yeah.
1:56:27
Well, it is.
1:56:28
It is.
1:56:28
And I think it's only fair that they get some time to fire all
1:56:33
the postural muscles up before- Mm
1:56:35
we get there.
1:56:36
And the other thing I've also developed which is am- amazing, but
1:56:40
I started which will maybe sound a bit strange for a lot of people.
1:56:44
But I've been for two years, probably more if you ask my clients because
1:56:49
they, they're probably tired of me now talking on about it, but I've really
1:56:53
focused on the horse's diaphragm.
1:56:55
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:56:56
Charlotte Wittbom: So, I've developed the groundwork exercise.
1:56:57
Which
1:56:57
Rupert Isaacson: is not where people think it is, right?
1:56:59
'Cause it's, it's not like ours.
1:57:00
No.
1:57:00
Yeah.
1:57:01
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
1:57:01
No.
1:57:02
No.
1:57:02
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us where the horse's
1:57:03
Charlotte Wittbom: diaphragm is.
1:57:03
And so it goes from, if you think of the saddle, so I'm trying toâ¦
1:57:07
You got, you know, you see this is the head, the neck.
1:57:10
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:57:11
Charlotte Wittbom: And then you got the ribcage, and then you got the haunches.
1:57:14
So, if you think you've got the saddle on, like, it goes from sort of behind,
1:57:18
not at the pelvis, but it's stuck there, all the way down near- Mm â¦ to the
1:57:22
girth area and if we think that the guts and everything is on the, that side of
1:57:29
the diaphragm, and underneath where we are sitting is the lungs and everything,
1:57:34
you can understand then how a lot of the difficulties of just being able to breathe
1:57:40
in a cylinder shape, breathe properly.
1:57:44
So I've developed so a way and it's still early days and I'm gonnaâ¦
1:57:51
I'm taking more helps of, of people that, obviously physios and, and they know that.
1:57:57
But I managed to get them to deep breathe, the horses, and to really
1:58:01
switch off, and that is so cool.
1:58:04
That is
1:58:04
Rupert Isaacson: so cool.
1:58:05
Tell us more about how, how do you deep breathe the horses
1:58:09
Charlotte Wittbom: and,
1:58:09
Rupert Isaacson: and- It's incredible.
1:58:09
So- How do you do this?
1:58:11
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, that's the secret.
1:58:13
No.
1:58:14
I'm joking.
1:58:17
Stay tuned for more.
1:58:21
Rupert Isaacson: Just make that check payable to Charlotte Vivement, yeah.
1:58:27
Charlotte Wittbom: Or buy my new book.
1:58:29
No.
1:58:30
Having the forecrumbs out and what I realized to reach to, for the
1:58:35
horses is the ribcage to release.
1:58:38
It's the smaller movements again, so it's not the full turns.
1:58:41
It's half haunches, half shoulders, half haunches, half shoulders.
1:58:46
And when you've done a, a, a couple of repetitions of that, and then you just
1:58:51
let the horse be, you can suddenly see that they start to breathe quite quickly.
1:58:57
Really a lot of strange things I've seen quickly, and then suddenly they
1:59:03
take a deep breath and blow out.
1:59:06
And snorting is someâ¦
1:59:08
it can be that they got, you know, in their nostril something.
1:59:11
But also when they release the diaphragm in work, they snort as well.
1:59:17
So you can reallyâ¦
1:59:19
That is sort of the bigger picture of it, but when I've done that
1:59:22
repetition a few times, what happen is that quite often they start to shake
1:59:26
their ears, their heads a little bit.
1:59:29
Some of them starts to yawn.
1:59:30
You can see when the nerve- when it hits the nervous system as well because
1:59:33
they, they start blinking and go sleepy.
1:59:36
And when it's, when the horse really gives, they just stand and they
1:59:40
just deep breathe all the time.
1:59:42
Like, you can't miss it.
1:59:44
And you see then, so in the beginning you quite often, they said the flank
1:59:47
in the horse, you call it in English.
1:59:49
You can just see that moving when they breathe, but when they've released
1:59:53
through the ribcage and released through the diaphragm, then they breathe, like,
1:59:56
in a cylinder shape, so you can see also the back moving when they breathe.
2:00:03
It, it's incredible.
2:00:05
Incredible.
2:00:05
It's, so I've, for two years or three, two, probably more, I say two
2:00:09
years is probably a long time, I've really worked on trying to find how
2:00:13
to get to that point, and I think I- I'm about to really understand it.
2:00:20
As, understand it that I could, you know, show it in a demo kind of thing, setting.
2:00:26
Rupert Isaacson: And if, so for someone saying, "Okay, well, what's the benefit?"
2:00:29
I mean, you could say, "Well, there's all these benefits of deep breathing, Rupert."
2:00:32
Yeah.
2:00:32
But, but specifically, what are the benefits?
2:00:36
And can you also keep that going when you ride, or is that something- Yeah
2:00:41
that you do preparatory for riding?
2:00:43
Charlotte Wittbom: So this is incredible.
2:00:45
If y- so if you think of, of when you ride and you collect a horse, and the horse
2:00:52
is connecting and contracting like this into a short- Because where we sit on
2:00:59
the horse, naturally there will be some restrictions, quite a lot of restrictions.
2:01:05
So I think a lot of horses, you can almost hear it sometimes when horses work.
2:01:10
It, you, sometimes you can hear that they, there's a bit of
2:01:14
restrictions in the breathing.
2:01:17
But I also think that, that the, by doing these exercises, of course, you,
2:01:24
the horse gets calmer and everything, but what I've then done is that I
2:01:28
have taught the horse that when I release or stop, that's the movement.
2:01:32
So if I'm, for instance, doing changes, working on changes for the first time,
2:01:37
the horse, if, especially if you've got a horse with a lot of flight
2:01:40
in, if I stop and give the reins, then they take that deep breath.
2:01:46
I need to have done it from the ground enough times so they understand it
2:01:50
and that the body wants to do it.
2:01:53
And what you do get is, again, then that kind of relaxation in it.
2:01:58
So I think if the horses can understand, because it's so important
2:02:01
the horses can breathe and oxygenate, ox- oxygenate themselves properly.
2:02:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
2:02:06
Mm-hmm.
2:02:08
Charlotte Wittbom: And it's like with us- â¦ when we are stressed out,
2:02:11
we can calm down our nervous system-
2:02:14
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
2:02:14
Charlotte Wittbom: by deep breathing, and it's just giving
2:02:17
the horse that tool as well.
2:02:19
Mm.
2:02:20
But they do get calmer.
2:02:21
They, especially horses with a lot of flight, you do notice a difference,
2:02:25
and quite often they start yawning.
2:02:27
And what's al- also I've seen when they, I do it, is that they
2:02:30
start to do weird stretches.
2:02:32
I almost think that they start to feel themselves where they are a bit
2:02:37
tight and release that themselves.
2:02:39
Mm.
2:02:39
Sometimes I've seen muscles go a bit like s- spasm, like when the physio pressing
2:02:44
things, you can see it rippling, you know.
2:02:48
I've seen that as well happening.
2:02:50
And what's so nice with it is that you only do as much as the horse allows.
2:02:53
So some horse, you can see they're gonna start to deep breathe, and
2:02:56
then they don't breathe at all.
2:02:58
They just then suddenly look for something el- else to, to snap them out of it.
2:03:05
But I do think, and this is just my view, I can be completely wrong.
2:03:10
I do think with horses, because we go straight into the ribcage, the diaphragm.
2:03:17
When that is released, it's actually easy for horses to let go in the
2:03:21
mind because at, at, you know, they probably don't carry as much.
2:03:27
They carry a lot, but not maybe as much as we do.
2:03:30
So when they release, the effect is quite straightforward.
2:03:35
But if they are comfortable, of course, in their body to release.
2:03:38
It's incredible.
2:03:39
I've s- had so much fun with it and I have since- Right, of course, you
2:03:40
know, they're wearing a girth- â¦ and I can't leave this opening
2:03:43
so
2:03:43
Rupert Isaacson: can they, can they really do this deep breathing with a girth?
2:03:48
Charlotte Wittbom: Oh, I do it without, very important
2:03:50
to do it without saddle first
2:03:51
Rupert Isaacson: Right, but then once you're riding-
2:03:53
Yes â¦ there's a girth, right?
2:03:54
Yeah.
2:03:54
So.
2:03:55
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
2:03:55
N- now once they understand the method, once that they understand,
2:03:58
so as soon as I give the rein, they go and then down immediately.
2:04:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
2:04:05
Charlotte Wittbom: So you,
2:04:05
Rupert Isaacson: you can feel it And so let's, you, you,
2:04:06
Charlotte Wittbom: you You can feel it.
2:04:07
Mm.
2:04:08
Rupert Isaacson: And you talked about in the fl- context of a
2:04:10
flying, of fl- teaching a horse flying changes- Mm â¦ especially
2:04:12
if it's a horse with some anxiety.
2:04:14
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
2:04:15
Rupert Isaacson: So would you be using that in between the exercises?
2:04:19
Yes,
2:04:19
Charlotte Wittbom: always in between.
2:04:20
Okay.
2:04:21
So what I also see is that actually everything comes, and this is, I
2:04:26
don't understand fully yet, but it comes as an effect afterwards.
2:04:30
So when you do it, when you do the exercise, that standing still
2:04:36
and just waiting f- For it to sink into the body is so important.
2:04:43
So that break in between whatever- Mm â¦ you're doing in your sessions, if
2:04:47
you do a bit of walk exercises and then you give a break, and then if you do a
2:04:51
bit of more collected exercise and then a break, it's in the break where you get
2:04:56
the effect of the exercise- Absolutely
2:04:57
not during the exercise.
2:04:59
Rupert Isaacson: And that's very, that's very Luis Valenza
2:05:02
and that's very Nuno Oliveira.
2:05:03
I mean- Yeah, yeah â¦ Nuno Olive- Oliveira always wrote, I think-
2:05:07
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
2:05:07
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: it's in, in the pauses in between that the horse learns- Mm.
2:05:11
Mm â¦ not in the doing- Mm â¦ of the thing.
2:05:13
And I think that's true for humans too.
2:05:15
I mean, that's- Yeah, yeah
2:05:15
that's the myelination period- Yeah, yeah â¦ in, in, in the neurons.
2:05:19
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
2:05:19
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
2:05:20
But we of course understand this better.
2:05:22
But I think what it w- what was it that he wrote?
2:05:24
He said "When your horse gives a good try-" Yeah â¦ "at something-" Yeah
2:05:28
â¦ "dismount immediately and smoke-" Yeah â¦ "a cigarette-" Yes â¦ "down to its butt,"
2:05:32
To take all pressure away from the horse.
2:05:34
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
2:05:34
Rupert Isaacson: And I was rather like that 'cause I don't
2:05:36
smoke, so I d- I can't do that.
2:05:37
Yeah.
2:05:37
So what I do is- Yeah, yeah â¦ I pull out my cellphone and I do some texts.
2:05:40
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:05:41
Rupert Isaacson: Just to sort of ta- just to take my attention away.
2:05:44
Yeah , you know?
2:05:45
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, next time you could try to deep breathe yourself,
2:05:47
Rupert Isaacson: Well-
2:05:48
Charlotte Wittbom: and see what happens
2:05:49
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: maybe I will.
2:05:49
So, Yeah â¦ this, so I was gonna ask you this.
2:05:51
Okay, so we're about, at about the two-hour mark, so we're
2:05:53
about, I think, ready to wrap up- Yeah â¦ this particular thing.
2:05:56
Yeah.
2:05:56
Right.
2:05:57
But what I would like you to do, this is what I usually do with people that
2:06:00
have come on as guests that have jolly interesting things to say, such as
2:06:03
yourself, is you've touched on a whole bunch of things in this conversation
2:06:07
which I would like to revisit- Mm
2:06:09
in more detail.
2:06:10
This being- Yeah â¦ an obvious one.
2:06:12
Where we would go for about the same length of time- Yeah â¦ but
2:06:16
divide it up into those themes.
2:06:19
Mm.
2:06:19
And then we could then release those on YouTube as separate conversations.
2:06:24
For example- Mm â¦ on deep breathing and the diaphragm-
2:06:26
Charlotte Wittbom: Mm.
2:06:26
Mm
2:06:27
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: to give a slightly deeper dive.
2:06:28
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
2:06:29
Rupert Isaacson: And then next year, 2020â¦
2:06:30
Well, this is now, for those, because every, you know, you could be listening
2:06:34
to this 10 years from now on YouTube.
2:06:36
This is October 2026.
2:06:38
Mm.
2:06:38
In July 2027, in the UK, at your and my mutual friend Alex Northover's place- Mm.
2:06:48
Mm â¦ and she's another amazingly good human being.
2:06:49
Yeah.
2:06:50
She is.
2:06:50
We're gonna be doing what we call our Tribe Day.
2:06:53
And I was gonna ask you anyway if you'd come in and do a demo.
2:06:57
Mm.
2:06:57
Yeah.
2:06:57
But I think this would be of particular interest- Yeah â¦ because a lot
2:07:01
of the people- Yeah â¦ who will be coming to our Tribe Day would know
2:07:03
the patterns- Yeah â¦ for example.
2:07:04
They, they're doing the groundwork there.
2:07:05
Yeah.
2:07:05
And okay, it's always great to do a deeper dive- Yeah â¦ but I
2:07:08
think something like this- really does take it to a deeper level.
2:07:13
Yeah, yeah.
2:07:13
Would you be up for that?
2:07:15
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, yeah.
2:07:15
That'd be great.
2:07:16
I, I'm just 10 minutes down the road, or, from her anyway.
2:07:19
Rupert Isaacson: Super.
2:07:20
Charlotte Wittbom: So, no, that would work really well.
2:07:22
Rupert Isaacson: So listeners and viewers, if you are- â¦ listening to this between
2:07:27
October 26 and July 27, then contact us and you can go see Charlotte do it.
2:07:34
Of course, you could do it sooner than that just by contacting her, but-
2:07:37
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah
2:07:37
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: for sure we will put a gun to her
2:07:40
Charlotte Wittbom: head and- Get the horses to deep breathe.
2:07:40
Yes.
2:07:41
Rupert Isaacson: Deep breathing of horses.
2:07:42
Right.
2:07:42
Yes.
2:07:42
And so we c- we can have a, we can have a, a second conversation
2:07:45
about this in, in greater depth.
2:07:47
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
2:07:47
Because- That would be very good I think.
2:07:49
Yeah.
2:07:50
A- and then- It's so fascinating.
2:07:51
It's incredible
2:07:52
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: okay.
2:07:52
And I'm, I'm totally up for it.
2:07:53
Yeah.
2:07:53
And then if you give me, like, a one, two, three, I will absolutely go try it with
2:07:57
my ponies, and clock the results and- Yeah
2:08:01
you know, see where we get.
2:08:03
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
2:08:03
Rupert Isaacson: Love to.
2:08:04
Charlotte Wittbom: Perfect.
2:08:05
Yeah.
2:08:05
Okay.
2:08:05
No, it is, it, and it's so easy.
2:08:07
Again, everyone can do it.
2:08:08
It just, it needs a, it's a bit of a structure to it.
2:08:11
Okay.
2:08:12
So, it's hard to go through like this.
2:08:14
But yeah, definitely.
2:08:15
Rupert Isaacson: So what we, so viewers, before you attack me in the comments, you
2:08:19
know, down below saying, "Well, you didn't do it in enough detail," don't worry.
2:08:21
We will, we will.
2:08:22
We're gonna have Charlotte back, and we're gonna go into it.
2:08:25
We're gonna go down that rabbit hole of the deep
2:08:26
breathing- â¦ 'cause I'm fascinated.
2:08:28
I want to know myself.
2:08:30
So listen, Charlotte, people obviously are gonna want to get in touch with you.
2:08:33
Yeah.
2:08:33
They're gonna want to know how to get training with you and all of those things.
2:08:37
Yeah.
2:08:38
So give us the plugs.
2:08:39
How do people
2:08:39
Charlotte Wittbom: contact you?
2:08:40
So they can get in touch with me through charlottewittbom.com.
2:08:44
Rupert Isaacson: How do you spell that?
2:08:46
Charlotte Wittbom: C-H-A-R-L-O-T-T-E-W-I-T-T-B-O-M
2:08:54
Rupert Isaacson: Wittbom.
2:08:55
.com.
2:08:55
Yeah.
2:08:55
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah, Wittbom.
2:08:56
And I'm also on YouTube so it's Charlotte Wittbom as well.
2:09:00
And also if you l- want to listen to my the podcast I've got out
2:09:04
there, they're also on Spotify.
2:09:07
Rupert Isaacson: What is the podcast called?
2:09:08
Charlotte Wittbom: Charlotte Wittbom Classical Mastery.
2:09:13
Rupert Isaacson: Of course you know the name of your own podcast.
2:09:15
I mean, yeah, yeah, naturally.
2:09:18
We'll make sure it's in the show notes.
2:09:23
You're like me.
2:09:28
Yeah.
2:09:28
It's very human.
2:09:29
It's charming.
2:09:31
Oh.
2:09:32
You're so busy doing it, you forget what the name of it is.
2:09:34
Absolutely.
2:09:36
Ah.
2:09:37
Charlotte Wittbom: Well, yeah.
2:09:38
Rupert Isaacson: I love that.
2:09:39
Charlotte Wittbom: The Mead Grand Masters, I think it's called.
2:09:42
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
2:09:42
Yeah.
2:09:43
We'll make, we'll make sure it's in the show notes.
2:09:44
Yeah, yeah.
2:09:44
But, but yeah, so listeners listen to her interviewing all these, these- Yeah
2:09:48
cool dudes because they are, they are indeed great interviewers.
2:09:51
Yeah.
2:09:52
Okay.
2:09:52
And I, I, I'm just gonna give you my own plug, is I tell everybody
2:09:58
that I train in the UK, and I've got quite a few UK clients- Mm-hmm â¦ I
2:10:01
always say, "Go to Charlotte."
2:10:02
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
2:10:03
And, and there was- I've had a few from yours.
2:10:04
I'm so grateful for it.
2:10:07
Thank you.
2:10:07
I've
2:10:07
Rupert Isaacson: got some more coming.
2:10:08
I, I, yeah.
2:10:08
Yeah.
2:10:08
Thank you so much.
2:10:09
It's, it'sâ¦
2:10:10
Y- you can't go wrong.
2:10:12
Charlotte Wittbom: No.
2:10:12
Rupert Isaacson: Part, I, partly 'cause I, I know her mentor, obviously
2:10:16
it's same mentor, but Charlotte's a particular talent and a particular human
2:10:21
quality and a particular everything.
2:10:24
I could not back her more.
2:10:27
Yeah.
2:10:27
I, Iâ¦
2:10:28
You know, basically if you live in the UK and you don't go train with Charlotte,
2:10:32
â¦ you will not be as happy as if you do.
2:10:36
And nor will your pony.
2:10:37
So, so m- prioritize it, lads.
2:10:40
Go on her website.
2:10:41
Send her an email.
2:10:43
Say, "Charlotte," and you say, da-da.
2:10:45
And Charlotte will, Uncle Charlotte will respond.
2:10:48
And you know.
2:10:49
Mm.
2:10:49
And you do travel in the UK, right?
2:10:51
You, you, you- I
2:10:51
Charlotte Wittbom: travel in the UK â¦ yeah.
2:10:52
I travel to Sweden as well for clinics, so yeah.
2:10:56
Rupert Isaacson: Great.
2:10:57
Great.
2:10:57
Charlotte Wittbom: All right.
2:10:57
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
2:10:58
Yeah.
2:10:58
Charlotte Vittbom, lads.
2:11:00
Charlotte Wittbom: Yeah.
2:11:01
Rupert Isaacson: Some, some- Thank
2:11:02
Charlotte Wittbom: you.
2:11:02
And thank you so much for this conversation as well.
2:11:05
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's been my absolute pleasure.
2:11:07
Always.
2:11:08
Mm.
2:11:08
Always.
2:11:08
Mm-hmm.
2:11:08
And I look forward to the deep dives, so we'll- Oh,
2:11:10
yeah â¦ schedule those and- Yeah.
2:11:13
Charlotte Wittbom: Definitely.
2:11:14
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
2:11:18
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2:11:21
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2:11:31
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2:11:32
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2:12:23
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2:12:27
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