Latest / Putting Is Fun / A $69,000 Scotty Cameron Is Baloney. Here's the Collection Worth Building | Ep. 15
Transcript
- speaker-1: Classic John Rooter, you can find your center, be a straight shooter, train yourself to respect the three-footer. Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Your time rollin' puts will surely be fair. Putt, putt, putt, it's just like it seems We can drift away and chill in a dream. Putt with your rose, go soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts. Putting is fun. speaker-0: Yes it is. Michael Jacobs Luz when I say that. Brian Manzala from New Orleans and speaker-1: John Ortega from Costa Mesa. We're we're heating up still, but it's we're gonna get some cooler weather in about a week, let's say. So we're we're a little spoiled right now. It's getting close to a hundred degrees, so people think they're melting, but I'm okay. I've been to p hot places that are hotter and stickier. speaker-0: Tigers. Okay. We have a great show for you today, folks, because it's a really important show and fun for putting show called Putting is Fun. speaker-1: Imagine that. speaker-0: Imagine. Tell them what you did. You did a little, you did a little search on the old one of your chat bots. what was it? Copilot. speaker-1: Right. I asked it w to list t the ten most iconic butters of all time. Of course my co pilot knows me, so it gave me a little bit of love. But it's speaker-0: you think that's what it was? No no no. Baloney. Just tell it what it said. Damn it. speaker-1: Okay. Okay, let's what my notes say. It gave number one is Ping Answer Scottsdale or Dalehead. Number two was Wilson eighty eight two or a Palmer. Same thing. Yep, same thing. Number three was Scotty Cameron titleist nineteen ninety to two thousand. So that would include the classic ones and all the classic ones like or the classic twos, the ones that were on tour before Scotty went with title list. Yep. And then the th the fourth one was Cameron Terillium. That's what Tiger won. With which is this guy right here. speaker-0: Blackhead dots in the back and on the face, the the copper looking iconic copper insert looking. speaker-1: Yeah. Super sweet. Every everybody that hits this putter, they say, Is it for sale? And I say, Absolutely not. You're gonna have to steal it. Not for sale. Okay, speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: and then Odyssey White Hot two. speaker-0: on the list now? speaker-1: We're at number five. speaker-0: Number five, Odyssey White Hot, Two Ball. speaker-1: Yes. No no no just it it just said two thousand, but that's probably two ball, 'cause that's about the time two ball happened. That was the beginning of the end for John Byron, by the way. then it was White Hot Number Seven, Little Fangai. speaker-0: Right? Yep. speaker-1: That's good. And then Tailor made Spider Original two thousand eight. Yep. speaker-0: Really? 2008? speaker-1: It's been around for a while. Rem remember Jason Day used that white one in the Masters? Yeah. His wife at the time was his girlfriend, she's looking real pretty. Everybody goes, I want that putter, but I'd rather have the girl. But since he's dishes and d I've got no chance at that. I'll speaker-0: Yeah, it's cheap. speaker-1: take what you can get. The other thing was out of reach. And then the Seymour F G P like Payne Stewart used. And Zach Johnson, basically. Yes. And then Bettinardi B B series, the B B ones, B B twos, their answer styles and Just the ones that you think of when you think about Betinardi. And then it threw me the bone, John Byron Dayhood for number 10. speaker-0: I don't think it's through your bone. I think it it's it's a speaker-1: I just I'm just throwing that out there. So I thought that was a pretty cool list. Of course, if I were to give buying list, I didn't take time to throw I can just shoot from the hip and I'd tell you the ones that I would think would be iconic. It's like I think they left out let's just let's just go with the ones that they left out. Because l all these are iconic. So I'm not gonna say I'm gonna kick any of them off the list. But I'd probably go with the zebra. I'd go with some Tommy Armor IMGs, IMG five, twenty eight or thirty eight Was it 3852s? Those are the ones who were blade with the coated shafts. Okay. that's what what's his name? speaker-0: Nagima. speaker-1: no, no, no, no, no. Gil the Gil Morgan. He used a a Herman Barron model of that. speaker-0: didn't knock a Dema putt with an IMG five though. speaker-1: No, that was Osaki. Jumbo Osaki. speaker-0: Jumbo. Okay. This would be so so what you're what you're saying is iconic. If you were gonna put a collection together, you do the iconic that co pilot said and these additional putters. speaker-1: Yeah, 'cause they didn't have in there. Odyssey Rossi two is that thing. That's what made Odyssey Odyssey. I think they Odyssey was bought for a hundred million dollars. Back then that was crazy. And what was what was Lab just purchased for? two hundred million or something like that? speaker-0: Maybe, I think. speaker-1: Yeah. So Odyssey, they were the first ones to get like crazy money or you know, Cameron got four million and then got really rich after that. But but Odyssey a hundred million. Now we got lab two hundred million. So at the beginning they've kind of broke the ice for that. So that would be another one that I would put in there. what else would I put in there? Of course, George Lowe, Wizard six hundred. Yep. Gotta put that one in there. You know not that there are that many of them. Bristol? speaker-0: Br it wouldn't matter, right? Yeah It wouldn't matter if it was a Bristol or a sportsman. speaker-1: No, no, as long as it's the right vintage. So I'd go with that. And then what else would I go with? I'd say some some sorry? speaker-0: Go ahead. speaker-1: I I'd say some of the yes putters, because they were the original groove putters. So you know, i the the swash, Harold Swash yes putters. Yeah, I think there were Yeah speaker-0: Circle grooves. speaker-1: it was golf golf gear, I think was the name of the company. I'm Don Anderson. I think he had the the first C groove putter that was You he was highlighting Harold Swash and the circle grooves. So th th they look like this, by the way. So th this is a cool putter. See that one? It's kind of an eighty two style. Yep. This is Yeah, this is the one that not this exact one, but this model that Jim Furick bought from a pawn or not a pawn store, but it was some like I don't know, some golf shop somewhere, you know, off off off course golf shop. I think it was Like a PGA superstore and Edward Watson, I forget which one. But he he had been disqualified from a tournament for showing up later. I forget exactly. Maybe he didn't register and he thought he had. So he was, s killing some time. He found this putter and he won the FedEx Cup with it. Imagine that. Bought bought a putter from retail golf shop, won the Fed FedEx Cup. So no circle T needed for Jim Furick. speaker-0: So on on that vein, okay, the the iconic putters and what would you have if you were gonna start your own putter collection, I asked Grot, and I have a lady Grok. You know, she's she's a lady when she talks to me. So if I were building Grok says, if I were building historical collection, I'd pick these ten putters. The Schenectady. Wow. Do you have a Schenectady? speaker-1: I do not. speaker-0: First pottery made illegal. speaker-1: Gotta have then. You're not cheating, you're not trying. speaker-0: So it was it was a a mallet that was center shafted. Walter Travis, I think, was the person that made it famous, putted the lights out of it for then. And the RA made it illegal for a while. And the USGA didn't. The center shafted putter that Walter Travis used to win the 1904 British Amateur was so dominant that the RA banned it until 1951. I didn't think about that. speaker-1: That's some serious punishment. speaker-0: You like that one for being on the list though? speaker-1: That's crazy. But I like it. I love those. speaker-0: You gotta get one. Calamity Jane. speaker-1: For sure. speaker-0: Bobby Jones, you have one. Chef, speaker-1: Have one of the for sure. speaker-0: okay. John Ruder Jr. speaker-1: Gotta have a John Reuter. I've got several. I don't have any of the the pre accush it b John I do actually, but it's not a very good one. that's the one that I've got to get. Find find one on eBay that doesn't look super thrashed. The problem with the bullseyes is they're so soft and nobody used a head cover in those days. You're gonna have to find one that grandpa didn't play golf and there it is. Shows up at an estate sale or something like that. speaker-0: Yeah, I like the older leather grip, flat, real flat side, real rounded in the back. a maroon mahogany looking color. okay. Ping one A, the one that goes, that named the company, right? Bing. The putter that he designed on a piece of paper, trying to figure out why he missed putts and he designed that ping one a. speaker-1: Redwood City. speaker-0: California. Where's that where's that to you? speaker-1: Northern California. It's kinda up near Los Gatos or something like that. So if you if you go up to San Francisco and go a little bit inland, it's not too far from that. speaker-0: Ping answer sketched on a 75 RPM record sleeve in 1966. Over 500 tour wins and 19 majors. And that ain't even sniffing the real number because it's the most copied design in golf history. Some copies better than others. So you gotta have an answer, right? If you were building the collection and you were looking for an answer, you gotta get a dale head, right? Explain the difference for everybody, what a dale head is and how there are some actual Scottsdale answers, originals, that weren't Scottsdale. speaker-1: It has bunny slopes. So it li this is close enough. So you see it. speaker-0: Very close enough. Yeah. That's Dan type. speaker-1: Yeah, so see how it slopes down like this. speaker-0: John's showing the the tririllium Scotty Cameron, and he's you we're looking at the back of the putter, not at the copper face. And the the two little bumpers on the bottom outsides of the cavity have a certain shape to them. And the ones that are more shaped down toward the cavity are the what everybody calls the dale. speaker-1: Daleheads. They're they're less they're less rectangular. So somebody once described them as they have bunny slopes. it's kinda like it's a real gentle going down to the flange. Whereas the the answer twos are the the triple black diamonds straight down. So this is so that that's that's the Dalehead. So you can either get Karsten Company Dalehead. If you if you're gonna get a Scottsdale answer, you can find some of them on eBay. I haven't looked at eBay lately looking for Scottsdale's, but they were Fifteen hundred to maybe twenty five hundred depending on condition. Back in the day they were I shoot, I used to when I used to work at Roger Dunn's, I used to sell Gary Player Scottsdale answers for three thousand, thirty five hundred, easy, even if they weren't in good shape. Slazzinger. I had one of those, that was a Gary Player Slazzinger. speaker-0: Gary Player, Slasinger, by Ping, for Slasinger, Gary Player model, Scottsdale answer. speaker-1: The f one of the first white labels. Real real real cool putter. I had one of those too. Wish I didn't sell it but speaker-0: What what w what give you just a plain Scottsdale, not a costing company, an actual ping Scottsdale, putter, official, all in one piece. Never the grip has never been changed and the in the in the label's still on the shaft, however. speaker-1: I'm guessing three thousand to thirty five hundred if it's really pure, 'cause they're gonna have they're gonna have some people out there that they're gonna appreciate one that's really preserved. But the f the the chance of finding one of those is pretty slim. they're they're usually gonna have regrip or, the shaft bands not good. The shafts are, faded out or pitted, or there's there's gonna be something that's gonna make it not pure. But if you find one that's pure, one time I found an eighty eight two that it was like you were describing the eighty eight two that speaker-0: Daniel Carr, yeah. He he he listened to the show and he said I got a few things wrong, but I was mostly right. speaker-1: Okay. Either way. So it's I'd say three thousand you'd be lucky. Thirty speaker-0: So he still has the Potter. So speaker-1: You didn't offer on it, did you? No. speaker-0: No, I think we could probably we could probably raise some money. He he he's he's doing okay. He he doesn't need to he it it it has you know, it's his grandpa's putter that he didn't put with that much. And then he putted with it just for a minute and he kept pretty good care of it. speaker-1: So we're we're back back to the subject to the ones that weren't on the list that or or or your list that's different than my list. Let's go with that. Right. You're all the way through yours? Yeah, all the way through yours? No. speaker-0: No, but but but th l let's we told everybody there are Scottsdale answers that are not s from have the s don't have a Scottsdale post office in the back saying Scottsdale. speaker-1: Say Phoenix and and they have the same it was came out of the same mold, I guess it just changed the engraving, and they're known as dale heads. So there was Karsten Company Daleheads and there's Karsten Manufacturing Daleheads. Now those are from different molds. The Karsten Manufacturing Dalehead, Davis Love used for our years. So d there were some of those going around and also the one had a little different bottom. The the Japanese called it the Funagata, which I guess it means ship shape. That's what So there were a lot of different iterations of the answer. speaker-0: The first the first okay, so so when they went to Phoenix it was costing company? speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: I think that's the one David Toms had in his car that got stolen when he was playing the Van Hogan tour, which is now the Cornferry Tour. The Ping Pao, stainless steel. speaker-1: No no. speaker-0: It says cast stainless steel mallet. The Ping Pao was a manganese bronze made famous by Tom Watson, correct? speaker-1: And and Sandy Lyle, one of the masters with that. Yeah, so there are a few speaker-0: Two was nameless. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: You can get one of those two. What the hell? Odyssey White Two Ball, Scotty Cameron, Newport Two, Tailor Made Spider, and a Lab Golf D F three. I say no. I say if you're gonna throw that in there, you gotta get an original directed force, Bill Pressey signature two point or one, right? speaker-1: For sure, for sure. If you gotta get the ones that were right. Yeah. Yeah, you got to get the OG. Why wouldn't you? speaker-0: Yeah, a hundred percent. speaker-1: He was there l loving those things. speaker-0: Yeah, so tell me tell me this. Tell me this what you got there is a is an addition to the list. You got one in your hand. speaker-1: no no no it's not it's not on the list, but I just thought this was an interesting putter. We talked about it, I don't know, show or two ago. And I said before the eighty eight two came out, there was a putter that looked like it. It was called the Willy Whore. And this is what Hubert Green you rolled. So here is a Willy whore. See that? See how the resemblance speaker-0: The black one he put it with? speaker-1: I don't think so. No. I think it was this one. Willie Horror. speaker-0: He it's a black paint on it or something. speaker-1: Probably. Yeah. He's fancy. But see how it has the l leather grip with the big pistol on the back? I don't think this is legal anymore. This this type of pistol. But pretty cool. I just thought that one was interesting. speaker-0: What about what what about okay, so let's let's okay, great. So we got that would be a pretty damn good collection. Let's spend five minutes between us, total of five minutes. Additions. I'm gonna give you the first one. I'm looking at the back one. the the first Callaway mallet head putter. Is that speaker-1: Tony Manzani. Tony Manzoni? Is it? speaker-0: is that up there right there? Is that one of speaker-1: yeah, yeah, yeah. The the the one with the hickory shaft. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: Yeah, this one right here. Let me get it. It's that's cool. So Tony Manzoni, he was one of the original Callaway guys, and like a lot of people that worked around Eli, at some point he went out of favor with them. So this one's called the Purist and it says Billy Casper, but the origin the OG one said Tony Manzoni. Tony Manzoni, he left the company, he had stock, and he he was telling me a story. This comes directly from Tony, so it's not like first speaker-0: Yeah, lower. speaker-1: firsthand, great guy. He he ended up coaching j junior college golf and is a good player. Super hot wife when he was what was that? No, no, no, speaker-0: Still around on the earth? speaker-1: no, he passed. But I guess Eli when Callaway was gonna go public, he called him up and he said, Hey Tony, you know, it's Things were not so great at the end. You I I kinda wanna make things good. He says, I'd like to buy your stock. Tony's like, say what? I want to buy your stock. I want to make you whole. Tony's like, No. He ran right through it. He goes, This guy's trying to rip me off. So he goes, He gave him kind of like a a polite no thank you. But in his mind he's thinking, you know, give him the middle finger. And when it went public he said that when he wrote the check for for the the the tax man, he said he was shaking because he had to write out a check for way too much money. To the speaker-0: to the tax ban. speaker-1: tax man, yeah. So he made a lot of money. So so good on Tony. But speaker-0: So he was one of the original puh, that the the mallet head, hickory shaft. So all of those original Halloway, speaker-1: Yeah, the brass bottom too. speaker-0: Bobby Jones, you know, Bobby Jones, some of those wedges had that same hickory shaft with the steel core, right? I think that's better. So you like you like that one on the on the list. You got one, so speaker-1: yeah. You got you gotta have some you gotta love some Callaway stuff, right? speaker-0: I give you one, you give me one, okay? Another addition. speaker-1: how about spaulding cashin? speaker-0: Got to. Gotta have a cash in. You could probably get one for fifteen dollars. Really? speaker-1: If somebody might pay you for it today. speaker-0: Can anybody pay you to take it? speaker-1: Hey, if hey, or the HBA. I think that's what Lanny Lanny Watkins was using when he won the P PGA championship. Has a little flange to it, super cool. And there's so many cool putters from the sixties, seventies, and eighties that you can get for a song and they all putt really well. They're just a little bit light for today's world. Yep. But s some of the best putters, faxen included, he doesn't use a heavy putter. They use, three hundred and seventeen. speaker-0: I was telling you when were talking about this topic, my dear late friend Todd Nunez, Mark Nunez, the the the commissioner of the Nunes tour that I've made famous online. Todd was Todd Todd and Mark close close and age brothers. I grew up with both of them, great, great athletes. Todd became a a you know, a very accomplished, you know, like five handicapped golfer and made nine million putts with the first putter. He ever bought, and I gave, I went into the Pro Shop, I looked at two or three ping answers to make sure anybody hadn't tapped them on the ground. Picked one for Mark, long gone. Mark traded up down a million times. That's Mark. Todd putted with that same putter his entire life. And what was interesting is in the modern incarnation incarnation of the Nunez tour, the second time around, after everybody's kids grew up and all that. Mark gave him a couple answers that were more modern and he couldn't putt with any of them. And he went back, thank God, the last few years of his life. He played a lot of golf right up to the end. Went back to the they made everything the same way. So some people, this this is on Greens, he only passed a couple of years ago. It modern greens, he was putting with the the the light putters. So, you know, some people putt better with the the lighter putters and the heavy putters, but the the it's not like the Not like the companies are giving you any option. speaker-1: No, no, no. When I was at David Orr's place, I don't know, five years ago or more. Sure. he had a group of guys together, golf putting geeks like me. And he's he's in this building that's away from the the clubhouse at what's called Southern Pines, and they have a putt that's maybe sixty feet. So he got one of the guys. In the building in the building, yeah, it's a long putt. Whoa. It's it's it's it's it's it's long. So the one of the guys in the crowd or in in the in the seminar He he was saying that he misses putts a lot to the right. And he said, well, what kind of putter do you use? He told him what putter it was. I forget what it was. He goes, well, let's let's try a lighter putter. So he brought out a lighter putter. He well, first he hit some putts with a 350 gram putter. And he kept missing the right, like he said. He goes, Try this one. He gave him a putter that was 320. The first one went dead left. It's like boom. He's going the guy goes, And that never happens. He goes, Try it again. So boom, left. So a lighter putter corrected his right word in a miss. Pretty pretty telling. It's like okay. speaker-0: Yes. Because because let me tell you why, Jacobs 3D wise. So you start putting force across the shaft and the weight blows back more with heavy than it does with light. And the recovery from the blowback is easier with light. speaker-1: There you have it. Okay. speaker-0: Okay? So I I asked Grok to give me twenty obscure putters that should be on a serious collector's hunt. And the first one I'm very happy to say in Odie Crispin. speaker-1: There you have it. I've got two. speaker-0: So Rob Strano, very, very good teacher, Florida, I think. so South you know, panhandle of Florida. not not that far, four, four hours and a half from me. he been to some Jacobs 3D stuff and just done some TV. Great, great dude. His son is the guy who went to Odie Christmas, they were about to close the doors. And he said, What if you give me a chance to promote y'all and maybe we can turn this thing around? And apparently they've turned it like all the way around. speaker-1: That's awesome. That's a good story. speaker-0: But I'd I'd like to see what what what what a real old one looks like, one of the masters winners versions, right? That's what I would look for. speaker-1: Sure they have one somewhere in in their archives. speaker-0: No, but I'm just saying on ebay or something like that, then the George Lowe Wizard six hundred. speaker-1: Yeah, the tr the problem with this there were there were a lot of copies made and so you might if you go on their ebay and you're not looking at the thing actual, you could easily get duped, speaker-0: Okay, you get one of the ones that Ram made. They made some that were that said Bristol. They made some that said Sportsman. And neither one of were worth a crap. Bitty f they were little bitty, bitty heads. Didn't look anything. I ha I I mean, didn't have Nicholas' putter in my hand. He would have shot me 'cause he was very particular about people touching his grips. But it was slain on the bag and I'm my head was as close to his putter. as it would have been if I was putting with it. I had perfect in plane position view was much longer from heel to toe than a lot of these copies. More pleasant to me. Redwood City answers, Scottsdale answer X. speaker-1: Rare. Probably not that usable. Super light I'd imagine. speaker-0: I would I would the throw if we were gonna go ping answer, the one that Tom Bartlett has, the one with the pixels, but it's the wide pixels. The wider insert of pixels. That the those pixels I think were eventually the the technology was licensed by ping. They used them for a while, and I think Adele wound up with the pixels. speaker-1: I remember the original pixels, they weren't cheap, they were good. That then when they repla I think at first they were brass, I believe. They were some some kind of yellowish color. And then later I think they were aluminum. Or vice versa, I forget. speaker-0: Here's one. The how about this? I I would I would say there's a couple of these I would look for. The 69 BC. speaker-1: You yeah. We had one at Costa Mesa, it was in the back room, somebody donated it. And I was ready to just grab it, but somebody else did before I did, so speaker-0: They also have the croquet sixty nine. speaker-1: Ooh. speaker-0: And crocade putting was legal for a a second or two. Well it was always speaker-1: Illegal and so did it look like the the the the hot dog looking one? Yeah the hot dog speaker-0: That was a sixty nine head, yeah. speaker-1: Yeah yeah that that one's cool yeah I I really like the the My Day of course that's what Faxen used forever and now he's used the cameron look alike, let's call it. And what else did I like? I love Echo. Yeah speaker-0: I yeah. The N echo or just the speaker-1: Yeah yeah th those those were cool. speaker-0: But my favorite ping putter of all time, if I go by how many putts did I make with and what did I shoot my lowest scores on a lot of golf courses with, A blade. speaker-1: Ooh Litrino. A blade. Boom. speaker-0: So what's interesting about the A-blade, okay, so what's the difference between the answer and the A-blade? Because they're both plumber's neck, ping putters from the same era. The A-blade is less face up. So if a ping answer is like 45, it's like more toe-down, more of a heel shafted, and a little smaller head from face to the back of the. speaker-1: Yeah, that's the main thing I remember. I don't remember the toe hang part 'cause I didn't really handle too many of those, but I'll take your word for it. speaker-0: And the other incarnation of that basic shape was the tailor made, and it was later Wilson. Brett McCabe TPA five. The three was like an answer, and the five was like an A-blade. I put it great with that putter too. Same style head. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that was Hale Irwin. I think he used the three and Trevino used one of those too. Trevino speaker-0: No, won the eighty six shoal creek PGA championship with the one he said he bought from a pro shop, looked at it, was too upright, banged it underground, stepped on it, made it flat, took some loft off off of it, and made so many putts he kissed it when he made his last one in the last hole famously. speaker-1: Yeah. And there was another TPA, I think it was the eight. It was the one that Tom Tom Layman w did well for a while. I I don't know if he used it when he won the US Open or whatever it was the one what did he use? speaker-0: And the and the mallet the the heel shaped the heel shafted mallet that fall though. speaker-1: Yeah, T P A eighteen. Yeah, I have a few of those. speaker-0: So here's here's here's a couple more on the on this list. the ping KBI answer beryllium copper. speaker-1: yeah. speaker-0: Super rare. I don't know why I would throw this one on there, but this is you know, like if you depends on how many putters are your collection. You want to have a couple of hundred? The ping dancer, the wooden mallet. You speaker-1: Had one. speaker-0: got a dancer. speaker-1: Dad a dancer. It was cool. I love wood putters. speaker-0: This one, this next one, if I was, I would, this would be in that my top 10. One, one, because I always wanted one of these. They're very rare. Tour issue answer milled. Tour only. Ping came up with a custom club department called WRX, Ping Works. I guess they still have it. There was a works milled answer. Ooh, man, let me tell you. speaker-1: Well they had they had the Redwood City speaker-0: Yeah, when they made the remakes, they were pretty good remakes. speaker-1: Yeah, so th th they had one d they had a Redwood City model of, you know, di di different different models, but they had a Redwood City that was pretty good. It was around around just after two thousand, call it two thousand three, four, five. I'm not you know, I can't I'm not great on those dates, but you can find one of those probably on ebay for a hundred and fifty bucks. Good ones too. Really good. Not not as heavy as the new ones. speaker-0: How about a John Ruder Jr. mallet? speaker-1: The half and halves, those are good. Yep. They get they got aluminum top generally and brass bottom, which tricky. It's cool. speaker-0: Scotty Cameron Bullseyes. speaker-1: Have one? speaker-0: I think Jacobs has one. Super cool. Black. Usually. speaker-1: no, no, I have a silver one. speaker-0: He had a silver one. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So a couple of my students bought me that one. speaker-0: McGregor response. speaker-1: Got one of those. I have one signed by Elon, big speaker-0: The big ones. speaker-1: guy. speaker-0: You got a couple of old old ones on here, 1700, So, okay. Do you think it was just the weight that stopped the rush to the classic putters? Or was it guys like you making milled putters that were better than the cast putters? There was a time where Lee Trevino would give you five or six hundred dollars when that was money now. You could buy a car. For any eighty eight two, eighty eight thirteen or designed by Arnold Palmer, if they were legit. He would give there was a it was a standing offer. No problem, he just whip it out. No more. So you think that killed it? speaker-1: I think it was probably the weight first, but more than that w when people started feel using shorter putters, you know they shorten a a a light headed putter just felt too light. So a lot of the people started using thirty fours and thirty threes and so they needed you know three hundred and forty or three hundred and fifty gram heads. Early on it was three thirty. Like this this the Cameron trillium, this one's probably three thirty, maybe. So what was speaker-0: The what was the Scottsdale answer? speaker-1: Depends on how how much it was polished, but I'm guessing right around three fifteen. Th th that's why people liked the Scott Stale, because he when he started making the ones that were a little bit the boxes on the side were more rectangular. They were three five, some of them were under three hundred grams. And and as were the Answer Twos, which Greg Norman, he was one of the ones who made that famous, as as did speaker-0: Not Aldric. speaker-1: Yeah, Eldrick and also Payne Stewart. I think it was Payne Stewart that somebody was claiming was actually a better putter than Ben Crenshaw. speaker-0: Good butter. Yeah. speaker-1: Very good. speaker-0: And had a lot of success with the Seymour. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: Including that last win. speaker-1: Yeah. His wife gave him the tip, keep your head down. She said you're looking up too soon. He's standing like that doing that thing with the sawed off vest. Pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. So so there are just a lot of things that you can entertain yourself with and it's it's not like I don't know, people that have a pension for pens or watches, things of that nature. It's super expensive. With these you can kinda mess around. Put back on eBay if you don't like Maybe sacrifice fifteen, twenty bucks, thirty bucks, nothing crazy. And you can entertain yourself with with all this. And eventually you'll probably find one that just go okay, this is the one. I'm gonna stick with this. Of course that lasts for about a month then you get another one, but it's it's a lot of fun. Just buying these things. I have I have a I don't know, it's a tub full of putters that I'd bought and refinished and speaker-0: With kinda tough. Like it the kind you take a bath then? speaker-1: No, no, no, no. like a storage bin, you know, those plastic things. Number ten speaker-0: Washed up. speaker-1: Yeah, next next show I'll I'll bring out. So I'm gonna I'm gonna glue up and put on eBay. I gotta raise some money for my new putting platform. I've got I've got enough, but my wife when I'm when I'm drawing money out of our account, she's not really happy about that. So I'll see if I can get over the top by selling some of the putters I have laying around. speaker-0: I'm asking Grock, what about a John Byron since since it was on the other list? speaker-1: god, I'm currently my eyes. speaker-0: Here you go after all this time, right? Here you go. This is very interesting. all this information on our on our boy Johnny and his old partner. John Byron is a genuinely underrated name in putter collecting. The brand partnership between John Ortega and Byron Morgan, based in Huntington Beach, California, starting around 1989. They produced the first milled putters in the late 80s, beginning with the Tour Angle M029, which was cast with a milled face. Tell us about that putter. What did it look like? speaker-1: It was the Scottsdale answer basically. And it was supposed to be originally it was going to be made out of carbon excuse me, at a manganese bronze, but the guy that I went to see at the foundry said, No, I'd make it out of carbon steel mill to face, polish it up, make it look like a T P mills. Sounded like a much better idea and so we did. And we put a leather grip on it, slip on leather, kinda like this one right here. I think we talked about slip on lamp lamp cans. This is like the sew up in the back. These these are so good. Yeah. I wish I wish they still had these. So we had Steve Pate win the San Diego open. It was I think it was called the I don't know if it was the farmers back then. But in any case he won that and we were off running, hit the ground running. So we s we I think we made five hundred of them to begin with and we sold them all within months of that win. speaker-0: The early 90s, they moved to one-piece build designs, and their Dale headline, based on the Scott's Dale answer, was the first answer copy to hit the tour used by Steve Pate when he won in San Diego. You couldn't see any of this. The collectible tiers run roughly like this. The standard JBO2 models go for around 70 to 100. and seventy-five dollars while limited edition and prototypes command real money. A nineteen ninety-six limited edition number numbered ninety of three hundred sold for about four hundred and fifty six dollars and a black pearl numbered two forty-four of five hundred runs around three hundred and twenty five. The most interesting piece Is the Frank Sinatra invitational putter? Y'all made four hundred and fifteen Daleheads for one of the Sinatra events with musical notes stamped on the toe and Sinatra's signature on the grip. speaker-1: And bottom and and on the sole. Got one of those in the back. speaker-0: A copper version made to honor the nineteen sixty three original is even rarer. Dang. speaker-1: Yeah, th that w that one's really cool. The the the then that's a McGregor IMG five. Super cool. And has his has a silhouette of his face where he's smiling. speaker-0: So y'all made a y'all made a copy of that? speaker-1: No, no, no, no. We we it was a dalehead. It was a stainless dalehead. So it wasn't a copy of the the the MG5. But that that's that was a pretty trick one. So one one of the other things that gave put on the list that gave me a little bit of love, collector grade was John Byron Dalehead 9. You remember those? The little tiny one? No? So speaker-0: Tell me. speaker-1: the Dale the Dalehead Nine. It was one inch shorter from heel to toe than the Dalehead or any of the ping answers or ping answer copies. So it was three and a half inches from heel to toe. If you put it next to an 80 or two, it's about the same size, maybe a little bit shorter. But when you look at it, it's like where'd the rest of this go? So I forget with what lady tour player when he showed a tour. She goes, What happened to the rest of it? But they're really, really cool. Because what what it w the way it came about, there was a guy in Japan, I forget what his name was. But he had more time and too many answers to mess around with. So he ended up chopping a couple up and had them re welded so that they're small. So these guys that that used to buy putters for us and from us, excuse me, and send them to Japan said, Why don't you make one of these? It's gonna be a cartoon character that's gonna use this putter and he's gonna make all kinds of putts and make all kinds of money and get famous. All right. So we made five hundred of those and that's what started that. And that was pretty successful. We probably sold three or four thousand of those. Just kept getting orders for and it was cool. So we made it out of manganese bronze and we also made it out of carbon steel. So you could look for one of those on eBay. If you looked up like John Byron Dalehead nine, you probably if you go on ebay or if you just put type it in the the search, see what those are selling for. I'd say that's probably a hundred and fifty dollars. speaker-0: I just put in, how about this one? This should not be worth this much money. I don't give a damn if I know the person or not. Scotty Cameron 009 made four Sam Burns, SSS with top line, COA, 25, like foot S putter, 69,000. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Come on, give me a break. Arnold Palmer owned I guess his own McGregor Tommy Armor IMG given to Tony Jacqueline in nineteen sixty seven. Forty six thousand. I mean, this is ridiculous now. That's it's it's some of these twenty five thousand, twenty thousand, if it it's baloney. This is baloney. speaker-1: They e even even the Live Tour, they they ran out of money. So it's people people with good sense and a lot of money, they probably won't do that. speaker-0: this is somewhat believable. Scotty Cameron Circle T Terrillium T twenty two Newport prototype. Brand new ten thousand. speaker-1: okay. Yeah. Still a lot of money, but reasonable. speaker-0: If you were, somebody interviewed you, so I'm I'll I'll do it, right? If somebody said historically important putters that people didn't know of, what would come to your mind? Obviously the T P bills, right? Wouldn't just wouldn't just pop into people's head because of how it was made or the or the design of the putter itself. speaker-1: I think the rarity of the ones that were handmade and the the spaulding ones were out sh in the seventies. So now that's s sad to say that's fifty years ago, right? So isn't that sometimes you know, out of sight, out of mind, you know, they're not in the pro shops and you don't see online too much. So T P Mills, I'd say, would be one and I th we've mentioned the Ram Zebra. speaker-0: When I was taking people to Scottsdale to get fit at cool clubs, they decided to redo this one for me. speaker-1: Yeah, T P T P one. Yeah, that that's Hayler when you used that for a while. Those are really good. Has the the real kicky shaft on Most of had leather grips, like a lamp can slip on leather. speaker-0: I had to put, put an eye on it 'cause it w the grip was trash. But it was a fifteen dollar I I bought a fifteen dollar putter on eBay and did a refinish and it it came out it came out really good. It needs to be needs to be reblued or whatever. Now it's starting to get kinda pity. But Jerry Page's the first person I ever heard mention it, you know, when he first like, you know Because he won the US Open as a rookie, so he was like nobody knew who he was and all of a sudden he was as good player at Alabama and he won a US Am and then he wins the US Open as a rookie and thought he was gonna jump in the water, which he later did when he won players speaker-1: Player championship. speaker-0: championship and threw Dean Beaman in the water, which probably made him the favorite of a lot of players. somebody needs to throw a roll app in the water. But That was the first mention of that. And then then when I Stan Stopper started playing golf with him, Stan Stopper was probably T P's best customer. He had dozens. speaker-1: No, you can only order four at a time and it took six months to get. So it was it was pretty in short supply. But another guy would be Tad Moore. Tad Moore's gone by the wayside. Nobody knows about him. He's doing hickory shops. speaker-0: Hickory shafts now, hickory shafted clubs, which is a thing, right? speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So speaker-0: People want to play with a ball. I have the ball. I have the balls back here on my behind me on on that table with that light that you can see if if you're watching. And they're they're always sitting there because somebody gave them to me. And they're just kind of cool. They got like square dimples. And they're the modern version of the Gutta Percha, whatever the heck it is. Not the feathery. But and it they're they're very limited fights. So you're playing these tournaments with Hickory Shafts and like a ball that like tries to recreate that that era and that's what Tad Moore's doing now. I think he still makes a putter every now and then. speaker-1: Sure, sure. But he's he's he's somebody that's not gonna be on the tip of the tongue of the average golfer today. No. So I think that that he's worth mentioning. speaker-0: Play long. speaker-1: For sure. Yeah, Clay, Byron Morgan. Yeah. My my ex business partner. Yeah, his his stuff is really nice. It sells for a lot on eBay. I think one of his answer copies is I just looked at one was like sixteen hundred bucks and some of them go for more. So that's that's that's that's an old timer. Now the the current guys that don't get too much pub would be Daniel Carrier. Is it Karahar? Yeah. speaker-0: Yep, who's a who's a teacher too, but but does speaker-1: He's a very good teacher too. Very good. Yep. And there's a guy in Scott's still named Lamont Mann. He's makes good putters. Then speaker-0: I don't know what the name of the guy on on X Metal Works. Metalworks. It looks like he does some good work. He has his own you know, I mean, they look like everybody else's putters, but he has some sort of originals. speaker-1: Yeah, and then Flanagan built, that guy. He does he does refinishing of irons and makes some classic butters and he's he's does a good job, at least as far as I can see. Look good. So there's a lot out there that you can st entertain yourself with and give yourself an opportunity to visit like with the technology of old, which if you have a good putting stroke, ball doesn't have any knowledge about what's hitting it. That's why I say it's it's a it's a hunk of middle at the end of a stick. speaker-0: So so tell this, if somebody 'cause there seem to be a lot of people like are building putters and stuff now more than ever. Sure. speaker-1: Lombardi. speaker-0: How yeah, well, he's not he's he's having them built. And he's, Paul Christiana, you from New Orleans, former rock and roll singer and great dude of of note and Lombardy putters. But they're not his personal designs. He gets ideas from designers that he uses and foundries that he uses and and and does putters that way. But who Well how not not who? How how much would somebody have to spend to get a CNC machine to start like doing it? Like you hear, like I remember Matt Rudy a couple years ago doing an article about four or five guys doing it like in their backyard. I mean, like, how much of those machines? speaker-1: Mm, some of are really expensive. But I think you can get a used Hawes or similar for I think Clay p I don't know what his brand was, but I think he paid forty thousand dollars for one that would make butters. So I'd say that would be probably the entry point. Anything less than that probably wouldn't do the job. But most most like let see what a Hawes machine is. speaker-0: So what you would have to do, right, you'd have to have the machine, right? And then you would have to then you would have to feed the machine the information of what to do, which is like is like a CAD design, right? speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And that's that's probably harder to do than press press bill, right? speaker-1: For sure. here here's a here's a Hawes machine used for fifty-four thousand dollars. So that's Freddie Hawes. speaker-0: How you spell that name? how about that? Who knew? speaker-1: Yeah, so there's a speaker-0: Another one. You gotta have a Freddie Has putter with the little ball on it and a little dot in the middle of the in the middle front of the ball. The old automatic. speaker-1: Yeah, so not not not cheap and then you gotta have somebody run it and it's So how speaker-0: How hard is doing the the the CAD? It's pretty hard. You gotta find somebody that can do that. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, Clay Long. speaker-0: Clay Long knows how to do that. But w when Scotty got into it, he started that way or he he would go to some foundry or when y'all started, how did y'all I didn't know how to run a machine. speaker-1: No, no, no. No. So we we went to a guy named Byron Butler and he made our mold and then we made the cast putter. And at that time, Rick Cooper was the guy that was making all the putters for everybody. And so Scotty got into the business because Rick Cook Cooper sold him the polishing shop. So Scotty was right across from Rick Cooper who made all the putters for Tad Moore, for Cleveland, for Ben Hogan, on and on. And and so he got indoctrinated into that from Rick Cooper. So That's that's how Scotty started. And he had a hand mill and he did some, some work on some handmade putters and ground and did all the polishing and things like that. So he learned as he went. So it's kinda like building the plane while it's in the air. Now t nowadays, it's more streamlined. So guys buy machines like Daniel did, learn some basic CAD drawing and often off they are. speaker-0: And he did he does it, Daniel does all his polishing and everything himself. speaker-1: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, he's sending me so for the next show I have an eighty eight two made with domestic sta stain stainless steel that he did for me. So I'll have that to show. Yeah. speaker-0: And and and and and and would be, a lot of these guys obviously very good. they would be very when we start doing guests on the shows, all the shows. we wanted to do, the the the funnel shows right now there are three. The No More Lives with me and and Sam Osborne putting his fun right here with Johnny and then the the boys we call in at at Funnel Golf. Kieran Harris and JT Perine with Good missus. and we're adding another show, but it's not a podcast. Won't won't won't tip anybody off with that. But it's a it's a YouTube short show. And then I have my instruction show that, you know, give a lesson here in the studio and do some stuff outside the Brian Manzella show. I really wanted it to be called something else. But the smart people at the company went, no, no, no, that shows Brian Manzella show. So One of the ideas that we we had really early on was to to do a couple dozen shows of all the shows. You know, kind of catch everybody up to the same level. And so the boys are, you know, they're like on episode four or whatever. And we're on about what, eighteen or nineteen or something. speaker-1: No no no. I think we're at thirteen. speaker-0: Okay, thirteen of four. speaker-1: But but with with Kieran who stood in for me, it goes up to fourteen maybe. speaker-0: Yes. There you go. So so but we're so we're getting close to when we're gonna maybe not every episode, but probably every other or every third episode, we're gonna have guests on. And we're gonna do them all. We're gonna do people who teach putting, we've got people who design putters and and and all that kind of stuff. And a lot of the people we mentioned today would obviously be really good candidates for that. But if you were if if if you were somebody Who wanted to get into this world? You know, I'm sure they ask the people who design golf courses, this kind of stuff all the time, since you were in the business and maybe might go back into the business again. and I certainly pull into that. What would you tell somebody? How do I get started in the business? speaker-1: Well, it's best if you go to somebody that's made some putters. So it I there's not a lot of information sharing, by the way. if if somebody's like, Hey, where do you get this done? It's like, none of your business, right? So that's that's the hard part. But you know, if if you go to a really good machine shop and you said, Hey, I want to make something like this and there's a good machinist there, he'll look at it and go, no problem. I'll just digitize it, you know, put it in my CAD, maybe touch up the edges if you think it's too sharp here and there, we'll go give it a go. So th there's a company called K Tech that's that does a lot of the Cameron work that we did that with them. They didn't they didn't make putters. they they were doing some work for Tad and I think they I don't think they did Cleveland putters, but mostly Tad Moore. A little bit of Ken Giannini and then we we came in and kind of just showed like, hey a putter needs to look like this. So you know we we learned with them. So You asked about how how it happened, that's how it happened. But now if you went to a place like K Tech, they're too busy with Scottie Cameron and they're exclusive with him. So it's it's really hard to get into the business to get in with somebody that's making a lot of putters. speaker-0: So Daniel just just bought a machine and then taught himself that's how he did it? speaker-1: Yeah, he's a handy guy. Yeah. Yeah, he was he was motivated. Yeah. So he I I think he said this is his second machine. I I I've talked to him just briefly, but he's he's really into it. I think he's more into putter making than he is teaching now. He can brand himself that way. And he makes he makes knives too. So he's he's I think he's making a pretty good living between the putter business and the knife making business. speaker-0: just so much there's so many so many interesting characters just talking about this, you you think about one day will Dave Dave Adele, the the Dave Adele. Ken Giannini, I I haven't heard that name, how do you say it properly? speaker-1: Giannini. speaker-0: Giannini. Is he still around? speaker-1: he's probably alive, but I don't think he's relevant in the business putter making business anymore. But he was he he he was a big timer at one time. He was b he was bigger than Cameron. speaker-0: Ken Burns. Kevin Burns. speaker-1: Kevin Burns, yeah. speaker-0: Ken Burns is the is the guy who does documentaries. Kevin Burns. speaker-1: Yeah, he's he's moving right along. Yeah, he he had his day in the sun when Jose Marie Olataba won the Masters. Right. And he sold the cajillion putters in Japan under the Bridgestone name. So he's he's done all right for himself. speaker-0: I had a Kevin Burns putter. I liked it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. You can get you can get going pretty cheap on eBay with a lot of these putters, I guarantee you. If you you're into all of that. And and I think the important thing to know is like like John said, it's not not it could be a very expensive hobby, but it it's a, you know, just even if it's just you're collecting putters, not to, you know, put them on the wall and have somebody walk by. But like trying to find the Magic putter for you. speaker-1: So it's it's not a super expensive thing to do. It's fun. I still do it. speaker-0: Yeah, and I I I look forward to adding to my little collection over there. So it's the the the the great thing about this show is all the different the endless amount of stuff involved in just taking a little ball, rolling it on the green or a carpet somewhere. speaker-1: For sure. speaker-0: Fun as always, Johnny. I learned a lot today. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: That manzala he thinks he knows everything. speaker-1: Schenectady. Let's see a Schenectady. speaker-0: Start looking for the schenectanies. Let us know. See y'all soon. speaker-1: I'm on it. Vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts. Putting is fun.