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With Great Power #260... 22 Panels with Doug Wagner · 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast

• 0:01
  Tad Eggleston: Good evening, everybody. Welcome back to 22 panels. Dr. Edgar Ramos has joined me co-hosting again tonight. I mean, you're… you're becoming almost my most common interview partner, Edgar. I don't know if you realize that. And back again tonight, and why Edgar is here, because he's like.
• 0:20
  Tad Eggleston: You got Doug Wagner again? I gotta talk to Doug Wagner more. I've read even more of his books, and he's batshit crazy, and I love it.
• 0:28
  Tad Eggleston: I think that's what you said. I paraphrased a little, but…
• 0:32
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Still paraphrasing, but very close, very close.
• 0:36
  Tad Eggleston: How's it going, Doug?
• 0:38
  Doug Wagner: Doing great, man. Thanks for having me on the show again.
• 0:40
  Tad Eggleston: You know, it's always fun to have you on, and like, when… Fashion school serial killers.
• 0:49
  Tad Eggleston: Killer.
• 0:51
  Tad Eggleston: wrapped up, I just went,
• 0:55
  Tad Eggleston: We gotta get spoilery.
• 0:58
  Tad Eggleston: So first, before we get spoilery, for those who were silly and didn't listen to you pitch it when you came on.
• 1:05
  Tad Eggleston: before Issue 1, or right after Issue 1, whatever, or something like that.
• 1:10
  Tad Eggleston: Give us the counter pitch.
• 1:13
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, so basically a fashion school serial killer, you know, obviously the title kind of tells you all everything you need to know about to get started, but it's about.
• 1:20
  Tad Eggleston: It's about a cookie baker at an elementary school?
• 1:25
  Doug Wagner: Exactly, yep. Okay.
• 1:29
  Doug Wagner: It follows Rennie, who is a serial killer. She has a condition where she believes that she gets a skin condition that she has to itch. When the itch gets out of control, she has to go kill people and bathe in their blood, because only fresh blood will do. And she decides that she's gonna go to fashion school because she likes making clothes out of people.
• 1:48
  Tad Eggleston: Now, quickly, Dr. Ramos, is this a real condition?
• 1:54
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Interestingly enough, there is some conditions tied to it, which is going to be some of my questions, for Doug today. Well, I'll start with the easier one. Did you have particular
• 2:06
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Inspiration, true or not, historically, that inspired this character?
• 2:12
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, I mean, historically, this is all based on Madame Bathory, who's, like, one of the first, probably, documented, and still, it's all rumors, so it's kind of cool to read about her, but, like, she was, you know, royalty, and they think she might have had thousands of people killed, and that she did bathe in their blood, and so that's.
• 2:30
  Tad Eggleston: Good to be king.
• 2:31
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, that was kind of like the…
• 2:33
  Tad Eggleston: Anyway.
• 2:34
  Doug Wagner: Like, you know, when I was doing research on serial killers, I bumped into Bathory, and it kind of started the whole, like, well, why would somebody bathe in blood? And, like…
• 2:43
  Doug Wagner: You know, because, I mean, you know, I'm a little bit of a germaphobe, so, like, bathing in blood is, like, the opposite of what I would do. I'd feel dirty once I got out, but, you know, like, why would you do that? You know, is it a skin condition? And of course, you know, then you look at, like, historically, like, there's always been characters who bathed in blood for one reason or another, and, you know, that just kind of intrigued me.
• 3:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: about you.
• 3:04
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So, so the next part, so I… it had a flavor that I'm like, alright, I'm thinking that. How about if I can toss a name out there? Ed Gein.
• 3:14
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah, yeah. Ed Gein's a, you know, he's actually one of my favorite to read about, because he's just, like, so…
• 3:22
  Tad Eggleston: For half a second there, I thought you were gonna say he's a hero of mine.
• 3:25
  Doug Wagner: No, no, not a hero, but, like, he's a fascinating character. Like, I mean, just, like, this massive mountain of a man, and hyper-intelligent.
• 3:35
  Doug Wagner: And…
• 3:36
  Doug Wagner: you know, like, when you're reading interviews and stuff that he's done, like, you're like, I think he wanted to get caught so he could tell everybody.
• 3:43
  Doug Wagner: You know, like, you know, it's one of those things where I think he might have gotten bored with getting away with it. You know, like, it's like, well, I'm done with this phase of my life, it's time to go to prison. You know, and it's, yeah, just a… but yeah, definitely some influence… you know, when you're reading about serial killers, all that stuff kind of influences you one way or another.
• 3:59
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh yeah, it leaves an impact, if not a scar, for sure, for sure, and you can definitely see the Ed Gein in the character with, making the suits, you know, making the, excuse me, the fashions out of it. It's like, oh, you know, I'm like, I think I know where this is coming from, and I mean, we have, characters such as Leatherface that are kind of, you know.
• 4:16
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: inspired that, but I'm like, oh, wow, but your twist on it was, I think, what's really made it, you know.
• 4:22
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: much more intriguing to see. So, those are my starting questions, to see what was inspirational for you with these particular characters. Was there a person that you modeled her overall artistic abilities from?
• 4:34
  Doug Wagner: No, not really. I mean, that just kind of came from, you know, being a fellow creative, you know, and once you dive into kind of, like, the fashion school scene and fashion itself, like, you get all these really unique characters. I mean.
• 4:46
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, fashion is creativity, but, like, it's so different than, I think.
• 4:50
  Doug Wagner: probably, like, music, writing, comics, TV, all that stuff. There's a different slant to it that really intrigued me there. And so, like, once you jump in there, and you're kind of like, okay, let me dive into this, it starts, you know, kind of speaking to you. You know, you're like, okay, this is pretty cool, you know, I'm gonna follow this path.
• 5:07
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So what's funny is that a thought that came to my head is, creativity borders insanity.
• 5:12
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 5:13
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: And that's kind of what I was just like, the duality with.
• 5:16
  Tad Eggleston: Borders?
• 5:17
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh, it's…
• 5:19
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, I feel like… What are the same wines?
• 5:23
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Blurred us.
• 5:26
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: And it's funny, because looking at that character, it's like, are… is it a duality, or is it just that… is it that border in that battle of, you know.
• 5:34
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Crossing that line is kind of the influence, so looking at what the inspiration was is important to see, like, the makeup of this particular character, so it's nice to hear, actually, from the writer, who inspired this character, because it's still a unique character, no matter what. A very good amalgamation of different people.
• 5:52
  Tad Eggleston: I have a question that goes with this, and we can't call it the material trilogy anymore, because we're up to five, and it's not strictly materials.
• 6:02
  Tad Eggleston: But the material universe, I guess, because, I mean, fashion school still deals with materials.
• 6:08
  Doug Wagner: So the material universe…
• 6:11
  Tad Eggleston: Something I've noticed is… that… The… the killers are… Less lone wolf?
• 6:25
  Tad Eggleston: than… than we normally think of serial killers. They all… Either have or want bonds.
• 6:32
  Tad Eggleston: And they all… Have or develop some sort of code of…
• 6:39
  Tad Eggleston: like, morals. They, like, need to… I mean, it's weird, because they're not, like, Punisher-type vigilantes, where they've got the morals, and it's like, oh, I'm gonna go kill all those people. They're like, I need to kill people
• 6:55
  Tad Eggleston: But I'm gonna try to kill bad people.
• 6:57
  Doug Wagner: Right.
• 7:00
  Tad Eggleston: You know…
• 7:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: There's always a code.
• 7:04
  Tad Eggleston: So, so how, how, like… How does that…
• 7:11
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, was that something that was there all the way at plastic on purpose, or was it something that just developed stronger as you went?
• 7:20
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, talk to me about how we have these serial killers that somehow we're fucking rooting for.
• 7:26
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 7:27
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, for me, you know, and it started all the way back with plastic.
• 7:31
  Doug Wagner: And really what I wanted to go for was the, like, you know, and Edwin, you know, he's retired at that point, you know, when we get to that story. And, because, you know, he obviously had killed people before, you know, he met Virginia and those kind of things.
• 7:44
  Tad Eggleston: It had a particular set of skills.
• 7:46
  Doug Wagner: Yup.
• 7:47
  Tad Eggleston: And… Me too.
• 7:49
  Doug Wagner: trying to make them likable, you know, they kind of have to have some sort of code, whatever that might be. Dexter kind of follows that same path, you know, and so it was one of those deals where I really wanted to lean into, like.
• 8:01
  Doug Wagner: Serial killers are horrible people.
• 8:04
  Doug Wagner: But there are worse people, in my opinion.
• 8:07
  Doug Wagner: You know, and when you start leaning into that, you know, sometimes we got silly with it, you know, like when Edwin kills the guy who kicks the cat.
• 8:14
  Doug Wagner: You know, and that just speaks to me, like, you know, I've only ever been in…
• 8:20
  Tad Eggleston: Congrat.
• 8:20
  Doug Wagner: As an older adult, and both times it was from somebody abusing their animal.
• 8:25
  Tad Eggleston: I was totally… I mean, my favorite thing about John Wick is that if they hadn't shot the dog, you know, they wouldn't have unleashed the monster.
• 8:33
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, totally.
• 8:35
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, don't get me wrong, he loved that car, but if they'd taken the car and not shot the dog, he probably would have shrugged it off.
• 8:43
  Doug Wagner: Yep.
• 8:44
  Tad Eggleston: And gone and bought a new car.
• 8:48
  Doug Wagner: And so, it's just, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, with Rennie in fashion school, like, you know, most of the people we had in there were just not good human beings.
• 8:58
  Tad Eggleston: They were horrible.
• 8:59
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 9:00
  Tad Eggleston: Horrible.
• 9:01
  Doug Wagner: Again, like, there's… there's worse people, and you can do worse things to somebody than kill them. I know that sounds… anyway, in my opinion. You know, I mean…
• 9:10
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, that… you're reminding me of one of my favorite
• 9:15
  Tad Eggleston: West Wing scenes. During the fourth season, there's a candidate that dies, but still…
• 9:23
  Tad Eggleston: is in the running for an election because they can't remove him from the ballot. And in a press conference, his campaign manager's treating it
• 9:31
  Tad Eggleston: normally, and… and…
• 9:34
  Tad Eggleston: He gets the question from somebody way far away from the district, you know, you're treating this like it's normal, but, you know, isn't there something…
• 9:43
  Tad Eggleston: a little weird about your candidate died, and he goes through a list of what the opposing candidate has done, and she's like, okay, what's your point? There are worse things than not… no longer being alive. Yeah?
• 10:00
  Tad Eggleston: Which, I mean, it's true. I, you know, I don't advocate
• 10:06
  Tad Eggleston: Violence in any way, shape, or form, but, like.
• 10:10
  Tad Eggleston: There's some really awful people out there.
• 10:13
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 10:16
  Doug Wagner: And so, you know, and for a lot of those, as I'm sure you guys have picked up, like, some of those are my idiosyncrasies, you know, like…
• 10:21
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 10:22
  Doug Wagner: Don't kick a cat, you know, don't…
• 10:24
  Tad Eggleston: Okay, get the cat. I don't kick my cats.
• 10:26
  Doug Wagner: Oh, nope.
• 10:26
  Tad Eggleston: I love my cats.
• 10:27
  Doug Wagner: anybody, you know, those, you know, the basics, you know, to me.
• 10:31
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, I've been known to toss my cats across the room, but only from heights that I know that they'll land on their feet, and only when they're being serious, serious brats.
• 10:43
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: There's rules to this game, there's definitely rules to this game.
• 10:47
  Doug Wagner: Yup.
• 10:48
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: How do you see, if you don't mind me asking, this universe that you're creating?
• 10:53
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: How do you see… how do you see… well, excuse me, not how… where do you see it going? And…
• 10:59
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: What do you call it?
• 11:00
  Doug Wagner: Well, I mean, it's been called the material trilogy. We also, you know, a lot of times, Daniel, I will refer to it as the plastic verse, because, you know, plastic is what kind of got the whole thing started.
• 11:10
  Tad Eggleston: Right?
• 11:10
  Doug Wagner: And so, you know, that's… we refer to that. And honestly, like, for us, we're just gonna keep playing as long as people buy the books.
• 11:17
  Doug Wagner: You know, like, we love the little… this little universe, and we love playing in this dark comedy horror space, and, you know, for us, it's just… keep… as long as the stories keep coming, we'll keep doing them, you know?
• 11:31
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh, they're great, and I really love that the flaws of the characters aren't always just that the fact that they're serial killers is that they have an abundance of other flaws as well. You know, when you think of, like, click, click, boom, the mutism, like, that was a very unique aspect. Then you have vinyl, which really touched me, is that, you know, Alzheimer's and playing the music, like, how did… what was the inspiration for creating characters with such
• 11:56
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: unique… For lack of a better word, flaws.
• 11:59
  Doug Wagner: Because I enjoy that, to be honest with you. Like, I mean, you know, when I'm reading stuff, you know, I bumped into the dementia thing and how music helps.
• 12:08
  Tad Eggleston: Oh yeah, I used to use it all… I… before I was a teacher, I ran dementia units, and music was one of my most valuable tools, whether it was playing it, or talking about it, or leading sing-alongs, or…
• 12:23
  Tad Eggleston: Bringing in entertainers, you know, the ways you could unlock
• 12:28
  Tad Eggleston: People that were otherwise often not there.
• 12:31
  Tad Eggleston: by playing… Playing music was just astounding.
• 12:37
  Doug Wagner: And then, honestly, with, like, Sprout and click, click, boom. Like, that was just a character that I… when I first envisioned her, she only communicated through Polaroid pictures, and I was like, well, I have to make that make sense. Why would she do that? And I was like, oh, she's mute, and she was raised by somebody that didn't have the resources to, like, help her with…
• 12:54
  Doug Wagner: Sign language or, you know, doctors and that kind of stuff, and so that's the way she learned to communicate.
• 13:00
  Doug Wagner: And so, you know, dude, it's, you know, these ideas just kind of like, you know, you're driving down the street and they come to you, you know, if you're lucky enough.
• 13:08
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: They don't come to me, so I don't know…
• 13:09
  Tad Eggleston: Please, please, please be careful with that. Driving down the street, having some of these ideas come for you, I'd be very worried about pedestrians.
• 13:19
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I see a mute person that likes Polaroid pictures. Yeah, I'm gonna… I don't know, I don't know how that comes to your mind. I guess that's the beauty of being artistic, is that it does come to your mind, with such, I think, realism to it as well. You see it. I think what you said is that you see these characters, or your experiences with some of this stuff helps formulate and shape
• 13:41
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: A basic character that you already have in your mind, is that safe to say?
• 13:44
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah, yep. And another aspect is I like to kind of lean into the… you know, and we've all seen it too, right? Like, there's amazing people who are handicapped, or they lost both their legs, and they still have an amazing life that accomplishes a ton of things. And I kind of like to lean in that aspect, too, of like, hey, just because a character's mute, or a character's going through dementia, doesn't mean they can't still be a powerful person and have an impact on this world.
• 14:07
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Definitely, definitely. What does that say about you as a person?
• 14:11
  Doug Wagner: I'm hoping that it means that I'm hopeful. You know, like, I hope that everybody can kind of see past their own limitations, because I do believe the only thing that really kind of holds all of us back is ourselves. That's always our biggest obstacle.
• 14:26
  Doug Wagner: you know, doubts and fears and those kind of things. And, you know, I hope that everybody finds a way to get through those, you know, and finds their true path.
• 14:35
  Doug Wagner: Into making a positive impact on the world.
• 14:38
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I would definitely reiterate that. I think it does show the hopefulness in all these characters, because you make some of these characters who are… they're serial killers, they're murdering people, and you make them lovable.
• 14:49
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: characters that you genuinely care for and have emotions for. I felt, you know, the pain of in vinyl. I felt his pain, like, oh my god, Rennie's pain, like, the bullying and the trauma, like, it's just like, oh my god, like, you're, you know, like, you just want to connect, you want people, you know, like, you just want friends, you know, like, you just want to be there. It's so emotion-ridden that…
• 15:13
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: does it… do you find yourself drained once you're creating these characters and writing them? Do you find yourself emotionally empty, and how do you recharge, if that's the case?
• 15:22
  Doug Wagner: It usually, when it starts clicking.
• 15:24
  Doug Wagner: it's the opposite. Like, when I figure out a character, or, like, there's a scene that I know is gonna… like, it touches me, or even makes me tear up, those actually make me more excited. Like, I get an adrenaline rush from it. Because I'm like, oh, this finally, you know, this has finally come to fruition. This is the way this character was supposed to be.
• 15:42
  Doug Wagner: You know, so, like, it's kind of the opposite, you know, it's like, it doesn't drain me, it's more like it fires me up and makes me want to keep working.
• 15:50
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: This is why then you don't go to bed till 7 in the morning.
• 15:52
  Doug Wagner: I'm glad, yeah.
• 15:54
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You find that your most inspirational moment is at night riding?
• 15:57
  Doug Wagner: Oh dude, that's… it's all over the place.
• 16:00
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You just get, you get the thought, and it just goes from there.
• 16:02
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, you know, I always refer to the muses, you know, from Greek mythology, as the creative geniuses behind everything, and you just never know when they're gonna whisper.
• 16:11
  Doug Wagner: and then they never whisper when you're ready. They always whisper when you're not. And so, it's like you're driving, you know, like I said, driving is always a big one. You know, if I'm taking a long trip, especially if I'm by myself, the muses and I will have conversations for hours in those instances. But sometimes it's just in the shower.
• 16:29
  Doug Wagner: Or it's when you're planting a plant in the yard. You know, just… you just don't know when they're gonna talk to you.
• 16:35
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: And it gets you.
• 16:36
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 16:37
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You have a very creative niche area that you have developed, I think, and refined it excellently. I mean, you have built a universe on it. Do you find yourself looking at a different genre that you have not written in yet that you feel that you want to dabble in?
• 16:54
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah, I mean, I grew up and always have been a huge science fiction fan.
• 17:00
  Doug Wagner: So science fiction, I would love to dive into deeper. It's so tough in comics.
• 17:05
  Doug Wagner: You know, science fair.
• 17:07
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Is your mind already floating around?
• 17:09
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, I've got ideas, I just hadn't had a chance to, like, jump into them and that kind of stuff, but, like, because this one's, you know, been keeping me busy, but
• 17:17
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, but yeah, I love science fiction, that's always been one of my biggest loves, but, like, trying to get a science fiction comic to do well is so tough. Like, I mean, besides franchise ones, can you name a whole bunch of them? Like…
• 17:32
  Tad Eggleston: Taga.
• 17:33
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, and Saga was, like, sci-fi fantasy, you know, so, like.
• 17:37
  Tad Eggleston: That's true, that's true.
• 17:39
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, it's one of the few.
• 17:40
  Tad Eggleston: And Edgar hates it when I say that one, too, anyway, because, you know, he's… he's… it falls into the category of comics that hit too close to home for him, so they're not… they're not escapism.
• 17:54
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'm a huge fan of Descender, Ascender, I think that… Let me add Descender or Ascender.
• 17:58
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: beautifully, I just don't.
• 18:00
  Tad Eggleston: Those also are on the sci-fi fantasy…
• 18:04
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, it was great, it was great, yeah. I think that was… that's a good sci-fi thing that was… that was good, definitely. You know, I could… I could see Rennie going to space, you know?
• 18:16
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: finding life on different planets, and kind of, you know, struggling with, you know, uncuttable skin or something, you know? I don't know, there's gotta be a motive somewhere. Someone's gotta go to space, you know?
• 18:26
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 18:27
  Tad Eggleston: See, my random question is, I actually, like, most of the time when I talk to you, I think I forgot the last time, I wind up pulling up the 12-gauge website. Seems like every time, I somehow will come across a book that you did that I didn't even know about, and I don't know how that happens, because particularly over the
• 18:46
  Tad Eggleston: the last few years, I've been, like.
• 18:49
  Tad Eggleston: Doug Wagner, I'm on top of it!
• 18:51
  Tad Eggleston: Yumi? Spy Fatale?
• 18:53
  Tad Eggleston: Baddy Royale looks… looks amazing, and I didn't know it existed until about, like, 3 minutes ago.
• 19:01
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, that's a book I did with Hoyt Silva. He and I were friends for a while back. And basically, we… he wanted to do, like, an action book.
• 19:10
  Doug Wagner: you know, some spy references, and you know, of course, I'm… Hoyt and I are gonna take it a little bit of a different direction, but it's like a spy fatale, kind of like the reverse James Bond.
• 19:22
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 19:23
  Doug Wagner: And we just had a blast, like, you know, a lot of strong music influences on… in that one, and we just wanted to do something that was kind of the best we could do of doing hip and cool, and over-the-top action all at once.
• 19:40
  Tad Eggleston: So he does, though, do other genres. I mean, that was… that was… and, like, is Thomas River still just one issue? Oh, yeah. Have you guys gotten back to that? Because I loved that. I kickstarted that.
• 19:53
  Tad Eggleston: And then, of course, your trilogy.
• 19:56
  Tad Eggleston: He definitely does crime stuff, Edgar. Have you not dug yet? I can hook you up with crime stuff.
• 20:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I've read all, well, everything my shop has on dog.
• 20:06
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 20:07
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: everything in my box, and I just grabbed it, and…
• 20:09
  Tad Eggleston: Have read it. There's some things that they didn't have yet, and… Ryan.
• 20:14
  Tad Eggleston: Because there's, like, the ride, and there's… .
• 20:19
  Doug Wagner: Hard place.
• 20:21
  Tad Eggleston: Hard Place, that was the one that I was about to say. And, and Narco…
• 20:26
  Tad Eggleston: Narco was your first one with Hilliard, wasn't it?
• 20:29
  Doug Wagner: Oh, no, no, Narco.
• 20:30
  Tad Eggleston: No.
• 20:30
  Doug Wagner: Narco's technically in the plastic verse.
• 20:34
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, wow.
• 20:35
  Doug Wagner: Yup.
• 20:35
  Doug Wagner: But it was… we wanted to do a Hitchcock-inspired story, so instead, you know, kind of like our… our normal, serial killer is the hero, this one was more…
• 20:47
  Doug Wagner: Hitchcock influenced.
• 20:49
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 20:50
  Tad Eggleston: It's… it's fantastic. You were kind enough to send me a reader copy of that.
• 20:56
  Tad Eggleston: that it took me way too long to actually read, but when I did, I went, well, I didn't… I think, actually, the reason it took me so long is, for whatever reason, I thought that, like Thomas River, it was the single issue of something
• 21:10
  Tad Eggleston: That I was gonna want more of, and then I finally got to it, and I'm like, oh, it's a whole graphic novel! Awesome!
• 21:20
  Tad Eggleston: So, yeah.
• 21:22
  Tad Eggleston: this may be news to you, Edgar, but Doug Wagner, talented guy.
• 21:30
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh, no!
• 21:31
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I see that.
• 21:33
  Tad Eggleston: I'm messing with you!
• 21:35
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I can see that. I was looking at what genre he would like to get into that he hasn't gotten.
• 21:41
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 21:42
  Doug Wagner: That was fair, yep. You know, like I said, I've always wanted to do science fiction, and that's the one that keeps evading me.
• 21:48
  Tad Eggleston: Have you read, Know Your Station?
• 21:52
  Doug Wagner: Oh.
• 21:53
  Tad Eggleston: That's, that's… Sarah Gailey and,
• 22:00
  Tad Eggleston: I always forget the artists. I had them both on multiple times.
• 22:05
  Tad Eggleston: Huh, thank you.
• 22:06
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Happy right next to me not too long. I think I did.
• 22:08
  Tad Eggleston: Sarah Gailey and Leanna Congas.
• 22:13
  Doug Wagner: Know your station?
• 22:14
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, know your station.
• 22:17
  Tad Eggleston: You should read it, you're gonna wish you wrote it.
• 22:21
  Tad Eggleston: It's… it's a serial killer on a space station.
• 22:25
  Doug Wagner: Oh, that's fine, yeah.
• 22:27
  Tad Eggleston: With some really interesting twists.
• 22:32
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I am telling you, it can be done.
• 22:34
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah. Doug, you got this. I'm telling you.
• 22:36
  Tad Eggleston: I got this.
• 22:38
  Doug Wagner: I just…
• 22:39
  Tad Eggleston: There are many good sci-fi comics out there.
• 22:43
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh, yeah.
• 22:44
  Tad Eggleston: And if all else fails, I can hook you up with the Star Trek editor.
• 22:52
  Doug Wagner: I mean, I'm… I'm a huge Trekkie, but, you know, that's… that's my love, not necessarily my, you know, one of those, I'm like, oh, I have to write Star Trek. I just enjoy it as a fan.
• 23:00
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:02
  Tad Eggleston: I, I, I just… I, I've become a Trekkie because…
• 23:10
  Tad Eggleston: because I have a friend who's a huge Trekker, and then got tapped to write Star Trek, and he, like.
• 23:19
  Tad Eggleston: Nearly… pissed himself.
• 23:22
  Doug Wagner: I'm like, well, I guess I have to go learn about Star Trek.
• 23:29
  Doug Wagner: Yup.
• 23:31
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I don't know.
• 23:33
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, that's… that's actually one of my… my weird things, the more people I get to know from…
• 23:39
  Tad Eggleston: doing this is, like, I've always been more of a, I like the creator-owned stuff, the… you know, I've only got…
• 23:52
  Tad Eggleston: So much desire to go after most of the franchises.
• 23:57
  Tad Eggleston: Star Wars being my weak spot, Daredevil being my weak spot. But, like, even… even… even, like, Marvel DC, you know, other than Daredevil and Star Wars, you know, there's, like, no character that's just automatically on my pull list.
• 24:12
  Tad Eggleston: You know, some people just have to have every Bat book, or every Spider-Man book, or… I've never really been that guy.
• 24:19
  Tad Eggleston: But the more people I get to know, and the more I get to know their writing and whatnot, it's like…
• 24:24
  Tad Eggleston: God damn it, you're doing Archie now?
• 24:27
  Doug Wagner: Yep.
• 24:29
  Tad Eggleston: I have to get into Buffy now? A G.I. Joe book? I have to read a G.I. Joe book now?
• 24:36
  Tad Eggleston: And then I like them all, and as soon as I like them all, it's like, god damn it, here's this fandom that I had successfully avoided.
• 24:46
  Tad Eggleston: for 40 years!
• 24:49
  Doug Wagner: And now you're stuck in it, deep in it.
• 24:51
  Tad Eggleston: Now I need to know more, because I know that I love this little work, but I also know that this little work was inspired by shit.
• 25:03
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yep. Same problem I have.
• 25:05
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I was about to say, Ed…
• 25:07
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Everything that they have.
• 25:09
  Tad Eggleston: Careful what you wish for in terms of, like, having more time to read comics, and… because there's never enough time to read comics.
• 25:17
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, no, no, no, that's already the problem I have now, is that I don't read by genre or by character, I read by author.
• 25:24
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I tend to, too.
• 25:26
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: there's a book I like, then I try to get everything that's published, that's available to me. So, obviously, Doug, you've been on that list, so I try to grab everything I can. Unfortunately, there's some that write a lot of things for Marvel and DC, and then it becomes a problem, because then there's, like, 20 different story arcs, and it's just like.
• 25:42
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, wait, why am I kidding?
• 25:44
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: $400 for this month's readings, you know?
• 25:47
  Tad Eggleston: Well, it's like when Bendis got to the point where he had, like, 8 Marvel books at any given time, it's like, okay, I can't read everything by Bendis anymore.
• 25:57
  Tad Eggleston: I just can't. Particularly because they're gonna start crossing over, and I'm gonna go, well, Word book.
• 26:05
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I've kind of made it a point to read, writers' independent stuff. I think in.
• 26:10
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 26:10
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You can correct me if I'm wrong, or Tad, I really feel like you guys put more of you in your independent, created work that.
• 26:19
  Tad Eggleston: I hope they do.
• 26:20
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: reflects more of the writer, and it's… it's just a better read, like, we all know these characters are great, like, the mainstream characters, we understand them, they've been around for… for years.
• 26:29
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: But there's such a up and down with these characters, as opposed to, you know, the shorter, kind of independently driven characters that I think have much more emotionality in them, for me. So I tend to focus on that, and then I…
• 26:41
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: try to only get a little bit of the mainstream stuff, just because there's no… I mean, I would never finish reading everything. That'd be… I mean, it'd be impossible. I don't have the time for every single read. You gotta limit everything. So you gotta pick and choose. So follow your author, follow them carefully.
• 26:56
  Doug Wagner: I think… I think what you're picking up in the indie scene is it's more the raw voice.
• 26:59
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, totally.
• 27:01
  Doug Wagner: Like, you know, there's no way you can't, you know, like, if you're writing Superman or Batman or whatever character you're writing, obviously you've got to not only pay attention to what was done before you.
• 27:09
  Doug Wagner: But the editors and the company aren't necessarily gonna go, hey, we're gonna let you do whatever you want. We have to stay true to the character, and it's the character they see, not necessarily the character you might see, your dad, or me. You know, it could be totally different. And so, like, they're like, no, this is our baseline. So it does… it can affect your voice, you know, as a writer. Like, it makes it tougher to be, like, your full 100%. Not saying you're not trying as hard.
• 27:33
  Doug Wagner: It's just… it's not as free-flowing as your raw voice.
• 27:38
  Tad Eggleston: I also hope that, like, just because you get more long-term pay for a jackpot idea that you own than you do for the work for hire, that if you have that
• 27:53
  Tad Eggleston: Phenomenal, earth-shattering idea. You gamble on yourself rather than putting it in a bat book.
• 28:01
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 28:01
  Tad Eggleston: would hope.
• 28:02
  Doug Wagner: I mean, yeah, it can… it can go either way. It's all…
• 28:05
  Tad Eggleston: It can't.
• 28:06
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, it's like doing an album, honestly. Like, maybe, if you're lucky, one of those songs is a hit, maybe more, who knows, but, like, you know.
• 28:15
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Never did an album either, Doug, sorry, no artistic in here.
• 28:18
  Tad Eggleston: You used to be a DJ.
• 28:21
  Tad Eggleston: I could play on the artistic.
• 28:24
  Tad Eggleston: There is an art form to deciding what comes next.
• 28:29
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, I definitely don't love The Independent. I've been reading, Cullen Bunn.
• 28:34
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah?
• 28:35
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So, I have his Deadpool. I'm not a big Deadpool guy, that's just the character doesn't really grab me or nothing. I like Joe Kelly's Deadpool for, you know, I think that was good, but I'm not a big Deadpool guy, but I picked up his 6 gun.
• 28:48
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: And that was amazing. Like, so now I pick… I have a whole stack of things that I have to read of his. It's like, I really like their independence. I like when you guys do your independence stuff, because I agree with you, it's not that…
• 29:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: That you're not working as hard in, like a big-name book. It's just that you may be limited as to what you can do.
• 29:09
  Doug Wagner: Maybe.
• 29:09
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: you know, if I can be so bold to say it, is that you may have some limitations as to how far you can go with a character that's essentially, you know, and I'm air quoting for those that can't see me, not yours, you know, and has a large.
• 29:20
  Tad Eggleston: I'm pretty certain nobody can see you, because… Only publish audio.
• 29:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'm a very.
• 29:25
  Tad Eggleston: I can see you, and Doug can see you.
• 29:29
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So, yeah, so stick with the big, the, the, the… stick with some, you know, independent stuff. I, I definitely agree with that. Smart, smart rule.
• 29:36
  Tad Eggleston: I actually, and I'm trying to remember, I know that you've done a handful… okay, you did some Batman in there.
• 29:44
  Doug Wagner: Yep, I've got that.
• 29:45
  Tad Eggleston: Cause I… I knew that you'd done a very small handful of, like, other licensed stuff.
• 29:55
  Tad Eggleston: But I didn't know how much you'd played in the big two. I think you've managed to make most of your career
• 30:02
  Tad Eggleston: relatively… on your own.
• 30:06
  Tad Eggleston: Have fun.
• 30:07
  Doug Wagner: mostly create our own stuff. I mean, I did work for DC Custom, which is a different division than regular DC. And DC Custom does all the stuff, like, if you see an NFL Superman story on their website or whatever, that's all done through DC Custom. So I worked with… I did do stuff with them for 10 years, and that's where, like, the Batman stuff came from. World of Warcraft stuff came through them.
• 30:30
  Doug Wagner: But, like, a lot of little stuff that, like, nobody ever sees or you'll ever get credit for, but it's, like, I still got to play with the Justice League and Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman, you know, all these fun characters. Again, even more so, edited there, because, like, I did the thing for General Mills that they put in their boxes of cereal.
• 30:49
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 30:50
  Doug Wagner: you know, not only do you have to deal with the DC editorial staff, which are always great, but, like, then GM's like, you know, General Mills is like, hey, wait a minute, we want it to be, you know, for the youngest kid we can possibly get to buy the cereal. And you're like, oh, that changes how I have to approach everything here.
• 31:06
  Tad Eggleston: No serial killers.
• 31:08
  Doug Wagner: Oh, nope.
• 31:09
  Tad Eggleston: There's a cereal box.
• 31:10
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Probably not.
• 31:11
  Doug Wagner: No, no.
• 31:12
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So with that…
• 31:14
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Is there a character of the big two companies that you would love to write? And if so, would they ever… would you ever love to merge them in your universe?
• 31:25
  Doug Wagner: That's a tough one. The merging part's a tougher one. For me, I grew up an uncanny X-Men kid.
• 31:31
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh, okay.
• 31:32
  Doug Wagner: the uncanny X-Men will always, you know, that group of X-Men will always.
• 31:35
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I was about to say, what's your team?
• 31:37
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, my… I mean, my team is gonna be the Wolverine, Colossus, Snitecrawler, Kitty Pryde, Storm, Cyclops, you know, like, that new age, you know, when they finally… Right. …bumped up. I love those, but you know, but not to say I don't love the classics, you know, you know, I would be willing to mix.
• 31:54
  Tad Eggleston: No, no, no, I get it. But particularly, anytime somebody says they grew up on something, that means that they've gotta…
• 32:01
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, that's essentially my X-Men team, and, like, there aren't enough of those other than when I grew up. They wound up all splitting off into…
• 32:12
  Tad Eggleston: other books, and it's like, I don't know, I can't read 17 books.
• 32:17
  Tad Eggleston: So, so, I read, I read, I read a lot of the X books that have Kitty Pride in them.
• 32:23
  Doug Wagner: And then, you know, could I mix the uncanny… that group of Uncanny X-Men into the Plasticverse? Absolutely.
• 32:29
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Whoa.
• 32:30
  Tad Eggleston: I could, yeah, I could have a blast with that. I think, I think, I think Wolverine would totally be friends.
• 32:37
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I'm totally… Wolverine would be totally comfortable there.
• 32:41
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, Rennie and Logan would be friends.
• 32:44
  Doug Wagner: Yep. I could see Kitty Pride, being…
• 32:47
  Doug Wagner: massively impacted. She sees a whole other side of the world. Yeah, you know, it'd be fun to play with that. But yeah, Uncanny X-Men would be the one book, for sure. And then when you start talking about, like, DC… DC's a tougher one for me, because, like.
• 33:04
  Doug Wagner: I would probably want something like Lobo.
• 33:06
  Tad Eggleston: Really? Okay.
• 33:08
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You gotta give… tell us the why Lobo.
• 33:10
  Doug Wagner: Oh, just because I love Lobo. Like, I love Lobo as a character because he's just absolutely insane and unhindered and unhinged at any time, but yet he still has a code.
• 33:20
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yes, he does.
• 33:21
  Doug Wagner: Yup.
• 33:22
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: And, and being able to, like, you know, there's a little bit of sci-fi, because there you could go anywhere you really want with Lobo, any planet, whatever you wanted to do.
• 33:30
  Doug Wagner: I'm not sure that I've read anything that did a deep dive into his humanity.
• 33:36
  Doug Wagner: And usually it's more… a lot more like, say, a Deadpool story, where there's a lot of fun and a lot of stuff going on, but they rarely, like, get into, like, why are you doing this, and who are you as a person?
• 33:46
  Doug Wagner: And Lobo's almost always kind of just been a hammer.
• 33:50
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Absolutely. I'm not too familiar with Lobo. I mean, I like anytime they have him on a motorcycle.
• 33:54
  Doug Wagner: Yo.
• 33:55
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Good, logo on X-Men. I can see…
• 33:59
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I can actually see all of them.
• 34:00
  Tad Eggleston: Few motorcycles.
• 34:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: No. I'm a huge motorcycle guy, but I can see… I can see both in the Planiverse. That'd be good.
• 34:07
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Well, I think that.
• 34:07
  Tad Eggleston: Do you need a… do you need a motorcycle in the plastic verse? Edgar can hook you up.
• 34:14
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I can definitely… I can even build one for you. We'll… we'll, we'll customize it to look like, you know what, let's do Ed. I like Ed.
• 34:23
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah, you like Edwin? Yeah.
• 34:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: That's my… I think that would be good.
• 34:27
  Doug Wagner: We've.
• 34:28
  Tad Eggleston: one of you.
• 34:28
  Doug Wagner: marks.
• 34:30
  Tad Eggleston: Have you and Daniel already hatched the next plan?
• 34:32
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, yeah, we're already deep into it.
• 34:36
  Tad Eggleston: When do we get an announcement?
• 34:37
  Doug Wagner: No doubt.
• 34:38
  Doug Wagner: You know, I can't give that stuff away until they last.
• 34:40
  Tad Eggleston: I said, when? When? When did we get an announcement?
• 34:44
  Doug Wagner: Probably, the announcement will probably be…
• 34:46
  Doug Wagner: You know, it'll depend, but I would guess probably February.
• 34:53
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 34:53
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, one of these days, I'll convince somebody to announce on 22 Panels. I had… there was one book that was gonna get announced on 22 Panels, and then it… the publisher never paid the artist, and it never.
• 35:07
  Doug Wagner: Oh.
• 35:09
  Tad Eggleston: Happened, happened.
• 35:10
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Good reason not to say it.
• 35:12
  Doug Wagner: Dope.
• 35:14
  Tad Eggleston: So, like, make certain that it's gonna happen before you talk to me, because I don't want to jinx anything.
• 35:21
  Doug Wagner: I mean, it's happening. I mean, we're already, like, way, way, you know, we're in the hundreds of pages, you know.
• 35:27
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, wow. You're that far ahead?
• 35:30
  Doug Wagner: Daniel, when we solicited fashion school, we were already done.
• 35:34
  Tad Eggleston: -Oh. See, this is what I always say that the Marvels and DCs of the world should be doing, particularly with event comics, and they never do. So, like, if you guys can afford to do that, why on earth can the mouse not afford to do that?
• 35:50
  Doug Wagner: They can… I don't know why they don't… and they used to, like, when we were younger.
• 35:54
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 35:54
  Doug Wagner: any X-Men and those kind of things, like, they were months ahead.
• 35:57
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, I just… yeah, I just… I just remember when I was working in a comic shop, and, like, everything got thrown off by Doomsday Clock going off schedule. Because, like, a whole year of comics had been built around it, and it's like…
• 36:14
  Tad Eggleston: If you build a whole year of comics around a 12-issue book, I got this crazy idea. Have all 12 issues in the can before you solicit it.
• 36:24
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 36:26
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I don't… I don't know why that changed, and why…
• 36:30
  Doug Wagner: they still think it's a good idea to… I think maybe they're trying too hard to be…
• 36:36
  Doug Wagner: like, you know, because things change, as we know, around the world, in short order now, quickly. And I think they want to be… feel like their… their current time versus… you know, I don't think a story necessarily has to always feel like it's modern.
• 36:52
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, and I get that a little, but that's where I'm like, they still have enough money that they could, like.
• 37:01
  Tad Eggleston: retread… or… ditch a storyline and bring it back later because they wanted… you know what I mean?
• 37:10
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 37:12
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: A good story is timeless. You know, a good story can be just any time. There's also… I mean, it's marketing, I mean, let's be realistic, it's a marketing technique in that let's make sure that we capture anything that's going on, so we can have everybody join on the bandwagon, and you know, and I get it, I mean, it's good business.
• 37:30
  Tad Eggleston: But it's also, we don't want to pay the creatives a penny more than we have to, a penny sooner than we have to.
• 37:38
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: And that's the part that drives me up the wall.
• 37:42
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: That's why you have your independently owned companies and independent creators that do it. I mean, that's why they exist, you know?
• 37:47
  Tad Eggleston: dam.
• 37:48
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: No, I guess there's gotta be some balance as well, I get. I mean, I get it.
• 37:52
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Doug, okay, one more question. I know I sometimes ask a lot of questions, and I apologize.
• 37:56
  Doug Wagner: No, that's what you're here for.
• 37:59
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know, it's understand… the better I understand you, it just helps me see when I'm reading the book, going, okay, I get it.
• 38:04
  Tad Eggleston: And when you need a diagnosis, he'll be on top.
• 38:06
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I already have it, it's already written, formalized report, you know, just tell me when to send it, I'll send it. So my question is, if you had to recommend 3 books.
• 38:17
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Which three would they be?
• 38:20
  Doug Wagner: You mean comic books, or…
• 38:21
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Graphic novels, comics, 3 books, whatever you…
• 38:23
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 38:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Your choice.
• 38:25
  Doug Wagner: I mean, that kind.
• 38:26
  Tad Eggleston: You're starting to dig towards my last question territory, but not enough that I won't still ask my last question.
• 38:33
  Doug Wagner: That's a tough one, because, like, it, it, you know, there's so many good books, and, like, you know, from month to month, that fluctuates sometimes. And so, like, right now, I'm, like, in Napalm Lullaby, which is by Rick Remender.
• 38:46
  Tad Eggleston: Good. Yep, love Bengal's work, so anything he's on, I'm on. Jay Lee's doing, like, a three-issue mini-series right now, and I've got… I've gotten through the first two. Hold on, let me grab…
• 38:58
  Doug Wagner: This ends tonight.
• 38:59
  Doug Wagner: Which is, Jerry Dugan and Jay Lee's new image book.
• 39:03
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 39:04
  Doug Wagner: And I'm digging that, so far. You know, again, love Jay Lee's art.
• 39:10
  Tad Eggleston: I'm loving, Duggan's other image book, Falling in Love on the Path to Hell.
• 39:16
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 39:18
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 39:19
  Doug Wagner: And then, of course, you know, I mean, I'm friends with him, so it makes it easier to say, but, like, Feral by Tony Farron.
• 39:24
  Tad Eggleston: Wow.
• 39:25
  Doug Wagner: Like, so much fun.
• 39:26
  Tad Eggleston: Have you read this week's issue?
• 39:28
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah, yep.
• 39:30
  Tad Eggleston: God…
• 39:30
  Doug Wagner: Everybody should be checked.
• 39:31
  Tad Eggleston: Oh my god!
• 39:33
  Doug Wagner: care for both.
• 39:33
  Tad Eggleston: It was… it was heart-pounding, heartbreaking, hilarious, all at once.
• 39:39
  Tad Eggleston: Have you read any Farrell?
• 39:42
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Nope.
• 39:43
  Tad Eggleston: Okay. Imagine a Disney version of Walking Dead.
• 39:51
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh, cool.
• 39:52
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Okay.
• 39:52
  Doug Wagner: Tony comes up with some really cool, like, odd stuff that you… at first…
• 39:57
  Tad Eggleston: Walking Dead with Cats.
• 40:00
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 40:01
  Doug Wagner: It's a really cool story. He's like, the funny.
• 40:04
  Tad Eggleston: You should also read Stray Dogs.
• 40:06
  Tad Eggleston: Which is the same creative team, Tony Fleeks and, Trish Forstner.
• 40:12
  Tad Eggleston: Where it's the… the… the dogs are the trophies of the serial killer.
• 40:17
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: See, this is… I always struggle with anthropomorphic characters. Unless it's the Thundercats, it's always been my struggle.
• 40:23
  Doug Wagner: Well, no, these are just… I mean, they're just regular dogs and cats.
• 40:27
  Doug Wagner: Huh. You get to basically, like, I mean, obviously, like, they.
• 40:30
  Tad Eggleston: You just happen to be able to speak dog and cat when you're reading them.
• 40:34
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Or understand it.
• 40:35
  Tad Eggleston: They don't, yeah, they don't… they don't speak human, but you can understand dog or cat.
• 40:42
  Doug Wagner: That's covered.
• 40:43
  Tad Eggleston: In fact, that's one of the challenges in Stray Dog, is they don't… they don't speak human.
• 40:50
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Okay. I actually have them, believe it or not, so I will open them up, and my list is just so freaking.
• 40:57
  Tad Eggleston: I'm away from the kids, though, because, I mean, they'll look at them and go, can I do?
• 41:03
  Doug Wagner: Keep puppies and kitties, it's like, nope.
• 41:06
  Tad Eggleston: Is Tommy okay with large amounts of core?
• 41:10
  Tad Eggleston: Or is he more of a nightmare type?
• 41:13
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Mr.
• 41:13
  Tad Eggleston: The one that could probably handle it the most, let me tell ya. You could definitely…
• 41:17
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'm gonna definitely… thank you for that, Doug. I'm gonna… I'm gonna put those on my… my reads list. I definitely like anything Rick Remender. I've been reading a lot of his stuff, too, so…
• 41:26
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I'll have to go read The Sense tonight. I hadn't… I hadn't started reading that one, but I'm up on Maybalm Lullaby, and Farrell.
• 41:33
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, in this instance, it might just be 3 issues, so…
• 41:36
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 41:36
  Doug Wagner: read.
• 41:40
  Tad Eggleston: I mean… It's always… I mean, no. Comics aren't always easy reads.
• 41:47
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, no.
• 41:48
  Tad Eggleston: I'm trying to… trying to… well, actually, got a couple of indie comics right next to me.
• 41:53
  Tad Eggleston: This is one that you could have created.
• 41:56
  Doug Wagner: I need to kill my boyfriends, I like it.
• 41:59
  Tad Eggleston: No, I need to call… kill my boyfriend's college room.
• 42:02
  Doug Wagner: Mermaid.
• 42:07
  Tad Eggleston: By, daria Faruhar.
• 42:15
  Tad Eggleston: I'm really hoping that she becomes a name that a lot more of us know, because she's got a hell of a…
• 42:22
  Tad Eggleston: Hell of a lot of creativity, and a lot to say.
• 42:26
  Tad Eggleston: I had her on recently.
• 42:28
  Tad Eggleston: Which is why I was still sitting next to the computer.
• 42:33
  Tad Eggleston: Edgar, any other, specific hits you want to make?
• 42:40
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I asked a lot of questions, I don't want to take a moment.
• 42:45
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Please, please, go, go ahead.
• 42:46
  Tad Eggleston: No, I, I just, Doug, anything else you need to plug? Anything else you want to hit?
• 42:54
  Doug Wagner: Oh, one thing I don't think a lot of people know, Daniel and I started a newsletter.
• 43:00
  Doug Wagner: And we actually have a… we actually have a comic strip we're doing in it, which I think people, if you like our normal work, I think people are gonna dig it. We're kind of doing, like, a Calvin and Hobbes meets serial killers.
• 43:10
  Tad Eggleston: Okay, so is this the one at… the…
• 43:14
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Later.
• 43:15
  Tad Eggleston: At the Shock Noggin site? Oh, it is, join… okay, because I literally came across that while we were… while we were talking, and just subscribed. So, I'll tell other people that they should also subscribe, because I didn't even know about the comic part of it. If there's a comic in it, then we…
• 43:33
  Tad Eggleston: And we really, really need to subscribe. This is at Shock Noggin.
• 43:37
  Tad Eggleston: dot com, which is… which is Doug's website in general, but if you scroll down to the bottom.
• 43:45
  Tad Eggleston: There's a spot to join the newsletter.
• 43:48
  Tad Eggleston: Possibly in the menu as well. Mmm, no, no, you should add it to the menu.
• 43:54
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Just in case.
• 43:54
  Tad Eggleston: In case people don't scroll down to the bottom.
• 43:58
  Doug Wagner: They don't read that far anymore.
• 44:00
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 44:00
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, no, we're doing… we're having a.
• 44:02
  Tad Eggleston: Comic book and screenplay writer.
• 44:04
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I've done some screenplays, you know.
• 44:06
  Tad Eggleston: What have you done?
• 44:07
  Doug Wagner: I mean, none of it's been turned into movies.
• 44:09
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, okay. Okay.
• 44:11
  Tad Eggleston: We'll work on that. People, hire Doug Wagner.
• 44:15
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: It will be.
• 44:16
  Tad Eggleston: Don't be a mistake.
• 44:17
  Doug Wagner: It could happen. You know, we're doing a fun comic strip on there called My Little Sister is a Psychopath.
• 44:24
  Doug Wagner: And you know, it's about two sisters, you know, and…
• 44:27
  Tad Eggleston: You know how I said I'm very, very kind to cats, but I occasionally will need to throw them across the room just because they're brats? This is the one that gets thrown across the room the most often.
• 44:39
  Tad Eggleston: He always lands on his feet, I'm not throwing him at things, it's like…
• 44:45
  Tad Eggleston: it's like I take him off of the keyboard and set him down on the floor, and he jumps back on the keyboard, and I… so at some point, I need to throw him far enough that I have at least, like, 3 seconds before he's back, where…
• 45:00
  Doug Wagner: And or I'll go, oh, wait, if I throw him that way, he'll want to play with that.
• 45:08
  Doug Wagner: distracting.
• 45:09
  Tad Eggleston: Exactly.
• 45:13
  Tad Eggleston: My required final question that you have answered multiple times, but… but as… I'm betting you forgot it, too. Everybody loves it, and everybody forgets it, and that makes it the perfect final question.
• 45:27
  Tad Eggleston: Tell me something you love.
• 45:30
  Tad Eggleston: Preferably a comic, but you just gave us three, and we don't really have rules.
• 45:35
  Tad Eggleston: Preferably storytelling.
• 45:39
  Tad Eggleston: But again, with the rules.
• 45:41
  Tad Eggleston: But something that you love.
• 45:44
  Tad Eggleston: That not enough people around you have experienced, and you really want them to, so you have more people to talk about it with.
• 45:52
  Doug Wagner: Okay, I'm gonna… because we've done comics a little bit, I'm gonna go… I'm gonna veer off. And there is a series on Netflix called Criminal.
• 45:59
  Doug Wagner: And they've done a UK version, a Spain version, and there's another one, but it's slipping off my mind. It's only, like, 3 or 4 episodes per season.
• 46:09
  Doug Wagner: It is one of the best-written, most interesting TV shows I've seen in a long time. Check out the UK one first, I think the first season's, like, 3 episodes. It's an hour-long TV show that takes place entirely in an interrogation room.
• 46:23
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, wow.
• 46:24
  Doug Wagner: It's brilliant.
• 46:25
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: How old is this show?
• 46:27
  Doug Wagner: It's been around, like… I mean, the first episode…
• 46:29
  Tad Eggleston: 2019 is when it started?
• 46:32
  Doug Wagner: Yeah. And, like, not enough people have recognized it or seen it, and it's just one of those incredibly… like, I can't believe how suspenseful they make an interrogation.
• 46:43
  Doug Wagner: Like, they're telling the story entirely with words.
• 46:46
  Tad Eggleston: And this is where I'll say, like, go watch it now, so you can talk about it before the only criminal that people know is the Brubaker Phillips one that… is it Amazon making the series out of?
• 46:58
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 46:59
  Tad Eggleston: Right around the corner.
• 47:01
  Tad Eggleston: Which I'm also looking.
• 47:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: That's what I thought you were talking about, was, Rubaker's Crown. I'm like, oh, there's a show already?
• 47:07
  Doug Wagner: Nope, nope.
• 47:07
  Tad Eggleston: There is, it's right around the corner. It's been filmed, it just hasn't come out. So when you said criminal on Netflix, I'm like, I thought that was on Amazon, and did you get to see it early? And then you started describing, and I'm like, oh, there's another criminal.
• 47:21
  Doug Wagner: Totally different. Probably why they haven't done a criminal U.S. yet.
• 47:24
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 47:25
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, so…
• 47:26
  Tad Eggleston: Damn.
• 47:28
  Doug Wagner: I mean, don't get me wrong.
• 47:30
  Doug Wagner: We love it.
• 47:30
  Tad Eggleston: I don't like… I don't like to bash Brubaker and Phillips. They're masters of their craft.
• 47:36
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah. Bye.
• 47:37
  Tad Eggleston: Gotta check out this other criminal, too.
• 47:40
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Care the wealth a little bit, spread it around.
• 47:42
  Doug Wagner: Yup, yup.
• 47:43
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, when you choose that simple of a title, I mean… you got, I mean…
• 47:50
  Tad Eggleston: I'm certain there are other things called plastic, Doug. They're probably actually about plastic.
• 47:56
  Doug Wagner: Mine is about plastic.
• 47:59
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Technically, yes, absolutely.
• 48:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Absolutely, you're not wrong.
• 48:06
  Tad Eggleston: Well, Doug, it is always, always, always a pleasure. You know we'll have you back.
• 48:14
  Tad Eggleston: Because, for whatever reason, you always say yes. Even though you've been on some truly weird episodes with me, where I was just in weird places, and you just let me rant, so I thank you for always coming back.
• 48:27
  Tad Eggleston: That's a, you know, sometimes things get off the rails, and we just roll with it. I don't mind.
• 48:32
  Tad Eggleston: I know, but when it's off the rails and, like, not about you, it seems, like, rude. It's like, it's like…
• 48:39
  Tad Eggleston: We're supposed to be plugging your book. Now we're talking about my childhood. What happened?
• 48:48
  Doug Wagner: I thought that was my job to have to do with you.
• 48:50
  Tad Eggleston: It is!
• 48:51
  Doug Wagner: Therapy happens in strange places, it just popped up.
• 48:54
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Apparently, apparently.
• 48:56
  Tad Eggleston: So, for 22 panels.
• 48:58
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So.
• 48:59
  Tad Eggleston: For 22 panels, this has been Doug Wagner, and we will see you after the next page.