Latest / Beheaded / Whispers of Maleficium: The Pendle Witch Trials (Part I)

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Whispers of Maleficium: The Pendle Witch Trials (Part I) · Beheaded

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to season six, episode 13, part one.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Megan Moore.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: Season finale.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, season finale, guys.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: We made it.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: We made it through 13.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_04: Or whoa, whoa, we made it all.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: Not quite.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: Getting ahead of ourselves.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see how tonight goes.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then maybe we made it through 13.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then we'll talk about renewing to season seven.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: Man, this is our sixth season finale.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_04: We've been around a long time.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like we need to stop and just acknowledge.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_04: Just acknowledge.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_04: You know, not um, it's been steady.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: We started pre-COVID.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: We did.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like a lot's changed in our lives in the world in six years.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: And we haven't changed.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: We both changed.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a new person.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Brand new, really.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see what's new about me.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um I have um pajamas that I wear at night.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_04: Did you not before?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: What did you wear before?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like I made it a goal to actually have like a pajama set and not just like oversized shirts and stuff.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_04: So like previously you just wear comfy sweatpants and like a big shirt.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I still kind of do it.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: But now I own pajamas.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm still a little confused on the distinction.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to think about how I've matured and grown over the years.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_04: I know, but I just want to like a pajama set you've purchased.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_04: I own pajamas now.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good one.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: How have you changed?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's a big question, right?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: I've experimented with new cuisine.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: You have highlights in your hair now.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_04: I do have highlights in my hair.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: That's new.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just using it.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_04: There's more behind us than that.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: Now I'm explaining my highlights.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, but I've gone through phases in my life of highlights and no highlights.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: I should have more than that in six years, you'd think.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_04: I, yeah.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I mean, I've got a new a new job, a new house.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: Like those things, you know.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I feel like fundamentally I'm still generally the same person because I'm interested in the same things.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_04: I've had the same friends.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, thanks.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_04: You're still here, um, still running.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like that's been fairly consistent.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I'm more of a consistent person.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, which is fine.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like you are very dedicated to the things that you do.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think the biggest thing that's like changed me over the past course of this podcast is besides pajamas.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Besides getting pajamas, is when we started this, neither of us have seen all of our favorite places that we talk about.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like being huge amblin' and tutor history enthusiasts.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: To have never have been to London, Tower of London, Hampton Court Palace, anything like that.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I know we talk about it a lot, but that really was like that's true, a big moment in my life.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Of seeing all the places that we've loved and we talk about so frequently, and then to actually stand in there and be in the room.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: That changed me.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's nice.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_04: And you specifically have done it with your husband.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_04: I've done it several times.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_04: You've done it with me, you've done it with our friend Dr.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_04: Lisa.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like you've been able to experience it in different ways.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Which is kind of crazy to me that I went from never like never thinking it was possible I was ever gonna get to London, and then I was like, I'm gonna keep going back.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Every year.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: I know, I really do need to figure out a new place to travel to.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's just no, no, that'd be there.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like I told Megan this when we did our first London trip, but I was like, every year or every other year, we just need to pick a different part of the UK and just like hyper focus on that one specific region and go every so often.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: That'd be fun.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm down.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yes, you are very dedicated.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: You're a dedicated runner.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: You just finished another marathon, so congratulations.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: This is marathon number 21.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_04: Guys, God.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_04: I only have 29 left.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's nothing.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if you're new to the show for whatever random reason, you're like, I'm gonna start on a season six, season finale, and you've never heard us before, right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Elizabeth is running a marathon in every state of the US.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: And it sounded like kind of far-fetched when I made it years ago, but now that I'm like slowly chipping away a few a year, it's coming along.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: It really is, though.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I have two more scheduled for the next month.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: Dang.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: So my gosh.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: I'll be at 23 by the end of this marathon season.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: But when you told me that when we first met and you told me that this was your goal and what you're doing, I was like, oh, that's kind of cool.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: And no offense, but I was like, you know, people throw out things at you that they want to do, but it, you know, I didn't know you at the time that once you commit to something, you follow through on it.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: So this podcast is never gonna die.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna be old ladies, probably still doing it because we never end anything, we just keep going and going and going.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: We're not quitters anyway.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Elizabeth is not a quitter.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hell no.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: So um, congratulations on hitting number 21.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I mean, aside from just the running aspect, like I just love an excuse to see a random spot on the map that you would normally not go to.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: And my last marathon was in Whitby Island in Washington State.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like an hour outside of Seattle on an actual island.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_04: And it's fun fact, it's where they filmed the movie Practical Magic.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_04: So, Practical Magic, if you've never seen it, it's like a 90s movie.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's a witchy movie, kind of, you know, alluding to what we're talking about later in the show.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's a witchy movie and it's meant to look like I think like Salem, Massachusetts.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_04: It's got like a very main New England vibe, and they actually film it on the opposite side of America on in on the coast of Washington State.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I went to where they shot in the downtown scenes.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_04: So, like if you've seen the movie Sally's like herbal shop that she has in in her downtown area, we went there.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's now a Mexican restaurant.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: Has Robbie seen Practical Magic?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_04: No, he didn't really get it.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_04: So he he let me like, you know, he's like, let's see it, and he let me get excited, but he had no idea.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I was just snapping pictures and I was like, this is so cool.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: So funny, it's a Mexican restaurant next to it now.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_04: I know, I know.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_04: But still super cute place, like very cool again, looks like Maine.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like looks very east coasty.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and not as rainy as Seattle, like they kind of get a lot a little more sunshine.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's nice.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_04: So it's just a beautiful place and very affordable housing compared to where we live.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, geez, I can imagine.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_04: So maybe we'll uh spend six months out of the year there.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Let's buy a like a cabin or something or a little beachfront property there.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's buy the Practical Magic House.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's actually a set.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_04: Oh.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: I looked into it.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Wouldn't that be cool?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they said they built that on San Juan Island, which we went to as well, but just for the movie, they built it, just as like an exterior piece.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's really beautiful.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, if you've never been there or if you're not from America and you're looking for places to tour that you haven't been, like Whitby Island, sneaky, sneaky amazing.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: Just interesting.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: Don't expect to find like convenient things.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, like don't go to a restaurant being like, I'm gonna find my favorite beer here.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_04: Like things are kind of hard to find there.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: You should share your restaurant story really quick.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I don't want to take up too much time with Whidby Island talk, but we we made a reservation.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_04: We always do like an Italian dinner the night before my raise because I like to carve up and have pasta.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_04: So we always make an Italian reservation, and we called this place weeks ahead of time, and the woman was like so excited.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_04: She was like, Oh my gosh, what else can we do for you?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you're making a reservation.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_04: We're like, Yeah, why is this so weird?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then that day that we had a reservation at night, we go to this farmer's market, the lady's there at the farmer's market, and we we went up to her.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_04: We're like, Oh, we have a reservation with you guys later.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_04: We'll see you later tonight.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: She's like, You're the ones, you're the ones who called.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_04: And like, she's like, You're running the marathon, right?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, Yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_04: How do you remember all of that?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_04: No big deal.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_04: She's like their first and only reservation.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_04: Literally, I think their only reservation they've ever had.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_04: She was like, We're gonna see you tonight.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: We're so excited.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_04: And then, like, we went there later that night.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_04: We were like ordering, and they're like, Oh, we don't have that.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_04: We're like, Oh, it's on your menu.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: But wait, but when when you were walking to the table, remember she was like introducing you to people.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_04: No, she was.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_04: She was like, This is the girl we were talking about.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like, this is this is them.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: They called, they made the reservation.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: They made a reservation, they showed up.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_04: They were like celebrities.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_04: We were literally like mini celebrities for showing up to this restaurant with you know, that no one has ever made a reservation at before, ever.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: And that's probably the it's kind of cute.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: It's it is cute, and you know, they probably don't have a ton of customers because they don't have a menu that's active.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: No, they were really sweet.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: Love them, love the food, is wonderful.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: But nothing was available, but nothing was available.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, what do you have?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have pasta?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_04: They're like, We'll make you something.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, great, whatever you got in the back.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and they had no red wine, so you know, that's a little tough for me.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know how you can have red wine before running 26 miles.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's just one glass.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_04: It's one glass, and it's really just to like calm me down.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's really just to be like because I do it early.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: It's like a 5 p.m.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_04: dinner reservation.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_04: You're not like chugging a bottle before you go to bed.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's like early dinner, one glass of wine, like go to bed early, wake up early, do the whole electrolytes banana thing in the morning.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_04: And then what do you do when you're done with your marathona?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: You just like then I can eat whatever the hell.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_04: As soon as it's over, and like this time we just went to Jersey Mike's and I had like the biggest cheesesteak in the world.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_04: And that's all I want is something like greasy and like substantial.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like, like no, no runner wants a salad when they're done.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you want something hearty.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: You spend your run fantasizing about food.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like you just need to eat whatever your body feels like it.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: So anyway, that was my Whitby, my Whitby time.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: I want to go.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's fun.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: I was texting Megan because they had a uh Ren fair like the next week.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, should we come back next week for the rent?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: So we might we might be talking about Whitby again.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: That's fun.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: We did get some suggestions for rent fairs.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: I want to go to Georgia.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh, I've well, no, I've been to Atlanta, but I've never been to the outskirts of I've never been to Georgia.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we also got another funny message in our in our DMs.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, what wasn't it?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we have to address an error.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: Oh shit, yeah.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: In our in our last episode, which I'm actually mortified over.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: Embarrassed.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: I was an American studies major.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: And if you caught this mistake in our last episode, congratulations, you are smarter than us.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so our last episode was about Ethel and Julius Rosenberg.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: And they we it was 1950s America, and we had mentioned, I, I, I have to take the blame.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm the one who said it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think we both said I mentioned J.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: Edgar Hoover.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: And how, yes, he was head of FBI, and I was like, oh, and then he was president.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: I thought so too.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: J.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: Edgar Hoover was never president.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: I thought that too, but the president's name was Herbert Hoover.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: I am mortified and mind-blown all at the same time.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_04: At the end of the day, we're just stupid Americans who don't know our own history.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_04: We don't even know our own history.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_04: We're working on that.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, but who what who have they both have the name Hoover?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_04: Not very common.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_04: What are the odds?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and I told Megan, I was like, my only point of reference was like Home Alone 2 when Kevin McAllister is walking into his room and the like uh baggage guy, whatever you call him, Bell Bellhop.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Bellhop.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_04: Bellhop.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_04: He's like, you know, um, and I thought he said, you know, J.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_04: Edgar Hoover stayed on this floor.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_04: And he's like, oh, the vacuum guy?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_04: And he was like, no, the president.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_04: I swore that was the line, but then revisiting the line, it was Herbert Hoover.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: It was Herbert Hoover.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: I apologize.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_04: Macaulay Culkin failed me.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so sorry.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: I just, I just assumed they were the same person.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: You love and you learn.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: We never claim to be professional historians on here.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have a script.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: We just we just go.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: We just talk until we are out of breath.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_04: We research and talk about it, and we present it to you, and then you correct us, and that's the circle of life.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: That is the the trend that we have fallen ourselves into, and we enjoy it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: We enjoy the feedback.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know what?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: I learn from you as you learn from us.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes it's all about sparking the curiosity of history, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: We're not we're not experts.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for bringing that to our attention.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I love to be educated in such a way because it's good that we can correct ourselves.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: We are humble people, we don't mind.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's alright.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, let's see, what else, what else, what else?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_04: The only last thing before we start, and uh I guess again, just along the same vein of what we're talking tonight, because we are touching on Catholicism tonight in our episode.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: We've got a new Pope, and he's American.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: You didn't know that?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: I have not had time to look at the news.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: You're right.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_04: Chicago, he's from Chicago.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_04: Did they announce it yesterday or today?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: I think yesterday.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_04: I had time then to look into it.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, but the white smoke came from the Vatican indicating new Pope.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um Pope Leo.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, he's taken the name Pope Leo because you you like choose your Pope name.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: That name Leo.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's like Leo the 14th, I think, is what it is.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_04: Leonardo.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_04: Leopold.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_04: Leopold.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, actually.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know either.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: One of those.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: You correct us.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: Tell us.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um he seems like a great guy.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: He's American, and I just watched the movie Conclave.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: Great film.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_04: I love it.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_04: I need to see it.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: I'm behind.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_04: Really good, good, amazing movie just about how they choose the Pope and the Conclave and how they meet, and it's very political and like what great timing.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: Who in their marketing mind was this intentional?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: I also, okay, I need to brush up on my recent popes, but isn't the latest Pope, he hasn't been there that long.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Francis?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, but I know he was um a bouncer at one point when he was younger.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like at a bar?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, he wasn't.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, he was.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: Seriously?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Look at all.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: Are you Googling this?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: Pope Francis bouncer.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: He was Argentinian?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Pope Francis worked as a nightclub bouncer in Buenos Aires, Argentina, before entering into priesthood.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: I kind of love that.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: What a tough guy.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's all I know about him.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_04: So to all the young kids out there, you never know where you're gonna be able to do it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Never know where you're gonna end up in life.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_04: A podcaster, a marathoner, the Pope.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_04: You just don't know.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_04: Don't know.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: Don't ever sell yourself short, kids.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_04: Explore all the paths, be curious.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_04: Anyway, bringing that to our uh episode tonight.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_04: I know we joked about this last time, how we always like tease who the person's gonna be that we talk about in the episode, but it's like they read the description, they know.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's always a surprise to me.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_04: It's a surprise.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so we are talking about the Pendle Witch Trials tonight.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: Two-part episode.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: Two part five.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, and it's British.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_04: It is British.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_04: And we've done witches a lot before.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: We've done a variety of witches.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_04: We've focused on Salem in the past in America.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Repping, I'm wearing my Salem shirt right now.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Establishing her 1626 upside down.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's the that's the year that city was established, not when the witch trials were.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: No, witch trials happened 1693.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_04: Two.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_04: Three.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: One of those.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: One something.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: Two or three.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_04: Or so good.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_04: Nailed it.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so today we're gonna focus on the Pendle Witch Trials, which took place in England.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, after just kidding, before Salem.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: Did you just look at my streets?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_04: And then I then I messed up.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um I could be absurdness.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: So this is actually a precursor to what happened in Salem in the Americas.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_04: So before we kind of get into our characters and who's involved in the story, because there's a few people, right?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's not just one person we're focusing on tonight, it's a group.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but to kind of set the scene here, so we're talking about Pendle Hill, which is east of Lancashire, if I'm saying that right, um, England, and this is the year 1612, so early 17th century.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: And who's on the throne at this time?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: Because that's always important when you think of political context and religious context.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, Megan, who's on the throne?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_04: It is James the first.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: Bingo.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: And who is James first's mother?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: Mary, Queen of Scots.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_04: Got it right.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_04: Give me another.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um, what was her religion?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_04: She was Catholic.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_04: But James was Protestant! Nice, Megan, you nailed it.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: I may not know my presidents, although I do know the presidents memorized in order.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: I know you do.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Which is again mind-blowing that I didn't put two and two together.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I can tell you useless information about British history.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's not useless.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's not useless.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's not useless.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is something very important.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_04: Very much into play.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, so to recap all of that, James First is on the throne.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: He's the son of Mary Queen of Scots.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_04: We've had a finale on Mary Queen of Scots before.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_04: Great episode, go check it out.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but if you know anything about Mary Queen of Scots, she was very Catholic.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like, that's actually why I think a big reason is that she was executed is because her cousin, Elizabeth I, was Protestant.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_04: She felt like Mary threatened her rule, threatened Protestantism, and you know, had her sent to the block.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_04: So here's James now ruling.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_04: And because his mother was a Catholic, he was very much raised anti-Catholic.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_04: Like he was raised very Protestant to the part to the point where they were like, hey, anything that is Catholic is bad.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: It is wicked, they promote demons and like demonol demonology, and you know, they they it's all backwards everything that they're thinking.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_04: So he always had this irrational fear of Catholics and a rational fear of like witches, too.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_04: He he saw them as very like hand in hand.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like if you believe in Catholicism, you believe in the devil.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_04: If you believe in devil, you probably believe in demons and witches and things.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: So he always just put that as in the same bucket of like, you're a heretic.
• 18:00
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Which is pretty crazy.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and as a Protestant too, though, obviously they believe in the devil and and everything.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, but he was also associating them with being treasonous at that point.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_04: Like they were trying to take him down from his own.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: He was incredibly paranoid.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so uh we've talked about this before, too, on our show, but he ended up writing a book called Demonology.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: And demonology is really about like the methods that are used by demons.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it endorses witch hunting in this book, and it says basically, like, hey, if you find a witch, like it is your responsibility.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_04: How do you find a witch?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like a step-by-step guide.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: How do you identify a witch and what do you do about it?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, this is an interesting thing that I didn't really realize until actually researching for this episode, which might be ignorant of me, but he sponsored the translation of the Bible, which became the King's James King James version of the Bible.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_04: And like it's funny because our family Bible at home is a King James version of the Bible.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like this big we sit on the table and it says in big letters like King James Version, and I never like put two and two together until I read this.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, oh, he that King James.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: Which we don't really, he wasn't that nice of a guy.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_04: He was kind of bad.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: He was really bad.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, again, very paranoid fellow, which kind of rightfully so.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: People were kind of out for him, and maybe his throne, maybe his beliefs.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_04: Do you remember him in uh Pocahontas 2?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, of course.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: Who doesn't?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: I've talked about this several times, but Pocahontas 2, James I is an the animated king in this movie.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: And he actually looks like King James.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, they're not gonna make him not like Pocahontas in the Tower of London.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm still anyways.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'll never I'll never get past that.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_04: Gotta revisit that movie.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_04: What a great film.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but um, so so anyway, King James, King James is on the throne, you know, very paranoid time if you're Catholic, if you're a witch, uh just don't say that you are.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, what kind of started his huge paranoia about witches as well is he was so convinced that he was personally being victimized by witches.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: He thought that there were covens and groups of witches who were personally trying to take him off the throne and like prevent his success and his growth and wealth as king.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: And part of this is because when he was first set up to marry Anne of Denmark, Queen Anne, she had a really rough time getting to him on the ship.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like terrible, terrible storms to the point where it was just delaying and they had to keep turning around and they had to postpone the wedding because of these terrible storms out on sea that she couldn't get over to England and proceed with the marriage.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: And James actually put a group of women on trial because he was he believed that they caused the storms.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: And he attended the trial, right?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: Personally, he personally attended the trial and convicted them as being guilty because that's how personal, that's how personal he took it.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, so that it stemmed from that, and then of course, demonology and everything, but he was really obsessed with witches.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: He was and taking them down and just being downright scared of them.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and and Pendle Hill, which is again where we're talking about this group of people specifically, was known to be a not so great place either.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like it was a wild, lawless region.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there was like it full it was full of theft and violence and like sexual laxity.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and a lot of that too, they attribute to the fact that back in King Henry the Eighth's reign, right?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_04: So a few monarchs before James I, um, King Henry VIII in 1537 had all of the Catholic.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Monasteries like torn down.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_04: So their local abbey was destroyed.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_04: I think even the parishioner was like executed.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_04: It was a whole thing.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_04: So people in that town either just didn't really adhere to any religion, or if they did, it was still Catholicism.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_04: And even those that did say they were Catholic and held private masses and things, some of them maybe just believed in it and honored it because it was traditional in their family, but because there was no church, they didn't really understand a lot of what they were like, like celebrating.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_04: They didn't really understand the doctrine behind it.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_04: They just knew, like, well, my family's been Catholic for centuries.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, now I'm not.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and their Abbey's gone, and here we are.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: So again, we've talked about this before with changing of monarchs and changing of religions, but it's like, how do you just say, Oh, I've been Catholic for 30 years, now I'm not.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_04: You really, yeah, you really don't, you know.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: In your heart, you can't change it after you're so ingrained and yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: Also, another thing that didn't really help the whole situation was Elizabeth I, who, again, monarch after King Henry VIII and monarch before James I.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: She passed a law that was called the Witchcraft Act of 1562.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_04: And this people saw as less harsh than other types of witchcraft laws.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: But what her her law was was essentially it became a felony punishable by death if you use witchcraft to harm others.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_04: So it wasn't just like, oh, if you are a witch, you're dead.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: It was more so if you are a witch and you are using your powers or your magic to hurt other people, then you could potentially be sentenced to death.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, good and bad, right?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like less harsh, but well it's interesting because by making that a law is admitting that witches are real.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the question, isn't it do witches exist or do they not exist?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's, oh yeah, you can be a witch.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: We know that.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: Just don't be a witch who harms others.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: Such a funny concept.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and witch itself was still a term that was being figured out because even in King Henry VIII's reign, they didn't really use that term.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like even with Anne Boleyn and everything, it was very much like, you know, she she was she bewitched him, she was a charmer, she was this, but like the term witch was still kind of being figured out, I think, and contextualized.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and in this era, too, specifically in Pendle Hill, there were there were women that were called cunning women.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: This is a word I learned researching this episode.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: But if you were a cunning woman, it meant you were kind of this like catch-all healer of the village.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_04: So you might have used herbs to heal, you might have been a counselor to people, you might have even been kind of like an emergency medical person to help out in certain situations, or like almost like a policewoman, too, if someone was in trouble.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_04: You had all these like responsibilities that just meant I'm here to like fix things in society, like social work of some.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: But they they weren't bad.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: They weren't they weren't in trouble or anything like that.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like they weren't really there, like conjuring spells to hurt everyone.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: They were the village healers and people paid for their services for different things.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: But there is a thin line between are you a cunning woman who's there to help, or are you a witch who's there to hurt?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: So again, very blurry lines with all of this going on.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so you had King Henry VIII, you had Elizabeth I, and then you have James the First.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: And when James I is on the throne, you also have the gunpowder plot of 1605.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_04: Another great episode.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, which we did an episode on Guy Fox and the gunpowder plot, but essentially it's a group of Catholic men also trying to bomb Parliament and sabotage James I's reign.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_04: So of course he's paranoid.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, maybe be a nicer guy and you won't be so paranoid, right?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like he's convinced everyone's trying to take him down, which sure Guy Fox is.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_04: Other people are.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_04: He's not a witch, though.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but he's not a witch.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: So it's gunpowder.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_04: Which maybe would have been witchy to them if they didn't know what bombs were.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, anyway, so so going back to Pendle Hill in this era, there's um essentially in England, there's all of these justices of peace everywhere, and they're like magistrates that go around kind of looking to solve problems locally in their area.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_04: So in Pendle Hill, there's this magistrate, this justice of the peace, his name is Roger Knoll.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_04: So Roger Knoll is there, and in early 1612, he's essentially ordered from the king to compile a list of like recusants.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: And recusants are people that are probably Catholic who are missing Protestant mass, they're refusing to go to Mass, they're refusing to go to English church and take communion.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: So he's kind of tasked with like, hey, we need a list of anyone in your area who's not a good Protestant, essentially.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like they're practicing Catholicism still in secret.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_04: In secret.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so all of a sudden, anything that was going on in the village which might have been overlooked and probably lost to history, all of a sudden there's like a microscope on this area of like, well, what is going on here?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: And coincidentally, in 1612, there is an incident that takes place.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so um, we are gonna introduce you to a girl named Allison Devis.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: Also, maybe device, it's spelt like device, right?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: But we heard people saying device, probably because of the accent, but we're gonna say devis.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna say it like the scholars say it.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: Also, Allison is spelt with a Z.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's A-L-I-Z-O-N.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: So Alison Devis?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Alison.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Allison.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, she is a young girl.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, not girl.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: She is a young woman.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: She's on the cusp of being a woman.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: She's like a teenager, I think.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think so.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think they never gave a specific age, but they said she wasn't an adult yet.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: But she was like about to be an adult.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: I saw one source say.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: 16 to 21.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what that means in 1612.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: If that being adult is 12 or 1, I don't know, but just take that for what it is.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so she comes from a pretty popular family in the area, a well-known family, maybe not for the best of reasons.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: Again, this is kind of a rowdy place.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: And her grandmother, Elizabeth Demdick, is believed to have been a witch for like 50 years.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: So she already has like not the best of reputations in her family.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone kind of knows, like, uh, stay away from that family.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: They're not to be trusted, and they're probably witches.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: So one day, Allison is on her way to a place called Trodden Forest, where she has an encounter with someone named John Law.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: He's a peddler coming from a neighboring place called Halifax.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: And she asked John Law if she could buy some pins from him.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: So, pins, like little metal pins, they were valuable, um, but they were used for multiple reasons.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: Largely people use them for like magic and spells and conjuring things, but they were also just like pins for like for sewing.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: Sewing, like for your coat or jacket or whatever.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: So you could use pins to either be a seamstress or you could use it for healing, divination, love spells, all these things.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: A pin like a like a needle pin, right?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like a needle pin.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe like using it to like, I don't know why I'm thinking like voodoo dolls.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe, yeah, and maybe like poppet dolls.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, poppets, the little clay figures, which we'll talk about a little a little bit later on.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um but, anyways, for whatever reason, and there's different versions from John Law's versions to Allison's version, in the end, he wouldn't do it for her.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, some believe perhaps he didn't do it because he didn't believe that she actually had the money to pay for it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: And he wasn't gonna like even entertain that idea.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: Some thought that it was such a minor thing to buy.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't want to undo his pack completely and like take off his big peddler bag and find the pins and make an exchange and do all that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: Because as a peddler, you're carrying your whole store on your back.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_04: If someone asks you for gum, you're like, no, get out of here.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I've got places to be.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then some even think maybe he said no to her because he was, he knew of her background and was like, no, you're gonna use this for some like magic, and I'm not gonna be a part of this.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: Either way, he said no, and she was really upset over this.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think she was upset because she's probably tired of always being seen as someone to be overlooked, like someone to not be trusted, someone to not give them the time of day.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: She's probably a little dirty looking.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Not serious.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: This is where Megan assumes people's appearances.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm envisioning the exchange of this interaction.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I can imagine he doesn't trust her, and she's probably fed up with having that reputation.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: So this is where it gets a little bit, take it again for what it is.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: Supposedly, a large black or brown dog appears.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: And a black or brown dog was believed to be the devil.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: And this dog started talking, and he asked Alison, what do you want to do?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: What should I do to him?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: You're mad?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: You don't like him?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: What do you want me to do?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: And she shouted, make him lame.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: In that exact moment, John Law falls over.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: He is convulsing, he is losing his face is getting all slurred, he's losing his speech, he can't say anything.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: Your face can get slurred.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't aware.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's getting droopy.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: Droopy face.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: Droopy face.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: And you can imagine Allison's just like, whoa, what did I do?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_04: She's like, I'm powerful.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: Somehow someone comes and they find him and they help him.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: And when he's in a state where he's not convulsing, they they somehow manage to get him to a local inn.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: And he is deathly sick for at least three days, and he's not able to talk for three days.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then finally, he starts to get his voice back.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: And the first thing he says is Alison Devis cursed me.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: So let's go over to Allison.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: What is she doing?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: She's freaking out.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: She truly believes that she almost killed him, could have killed him, and then had this, had the devil help her curse him.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: And she admits full guilt.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: She is very vocal about it.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: She even goes to John Law's son, right?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: And well, admits it.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's hard to say who came to who first because there are versions of this where uh John Law's son, Abraham, was told to go find her.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_04: Like John Law told him, like, hey, I ran into this woman, Allison, go find her, bring her back to me, and then have her heal me.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: So there's either that or she felt so guilty that she went to his son and was like, hey, I'm so sorry.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_04: I did this.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_04: It was me.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: It was me.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm the problem.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's me.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and essentially confessed full, like everything and begged for forgiveness, was like, I'm just, I'm so sorry.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so now we're in a situation where, again, the the magistrate, uh, Roger Noel is aware of the situation.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_04: So it was Alison, her grandmother, Alison Demdike, who was again like the supposed witch and healer of the family, and Allison brothers James, they were all summoned to appear before Noel.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: And this the date, they have an exact date on this.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_04: It's March 30th, 1612.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_04: And there she just confesses everything because she feels so guilty.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: Is it that she didn't know the repercussions?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: Is she that she I don't think she understood that you're confessing to a felony that is punishable by death right now?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: And all it's a small village.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how much they know about the law.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then let's be honest, all these symptoms that I just said about John Law, how he falls over, he's convulsing, he loses um his speech, his face starts drooping down.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's a stroke.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's a stroke.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: But what are the odds that that happened right when she gave him like the worst dagger stare ever and was like, make him lame.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: It just so happens that he has a stroke in that moment.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe he was so heated up in the moment of like this exchange and what happened, and he was probably very poor health, and he's carrying this giant pack around, and I'm sure he was not in the best of condition, and that was the moment when his body went into a stroke.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: But um it could happen.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: Kind of spooky, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, really weird timing.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, whether she believes she did it or not, and then him just again, either either being stressed with the situation or just pure coincidence it happened at that moment.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Even in modern day, like if that were to happen to me today, yeah, if I was so mad at a stranger that I had a a bad passing with, and I not that I would ever do this, but if I like cursed them there on the street and then they happen to have a seizure or a stroke or something in that moment, right?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: Wouldn't a part of you still feel like, oh shoot, like we have powers.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: I had a moment like this.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if I've said it on this podcast in fourth grade.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: Oh god.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry for it.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: Tell tell us what happened in the fourth grade, Elizabeth.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, quick story.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_04: I'm in the cafeteria at Hunters Glen Elementary School.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I am across from my friend Victoria, who like I've known my whole life, and I had this weird flash where I was just like kicking my feet under the table, and I like was like, hmm, this the floor feels slippery right now.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I had this weird vision of like when we go to take our lunch trays up and throw them out, like my friend's gonna slip and fall.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't know why.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_04: It just like flashed in my head, brief thought.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, oh weird thought.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: And then we get up and she trips and she falls, and her food goes everywhere.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_04: It was like a big dramatic scene.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_04: And she was it like a deja vu thing, or was it it was just like it was a quick flash in my head, and I it how it happened wasn't actually how I saw it in my head.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like in my head, she like flew flew backwards and her her food went everywhere, and I was like, oh weird.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: And then as we're walking, she just trips out of nowhere, falls, but she falls forward, and her food goes everywhere that way.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, whoa, and I like you never told me the story.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_04: It was really strange, a weird moment.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_04: I might be a witch.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_04: I'm a I'm a witch.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I I told her after and she didn't believe me.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, I don't know what happened, but like right before you fell, like I saw you fall.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's the worst when you can't explain to people, like they don't believe you.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like deja vu is such a weird thing, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: I know that's not quite the same, but like I had a I had a very significant deja vu moment where it was the first semester of classes in college, and I was in a classroom that I've never been in before.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but I knew I for sure had a dream in that classroom.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like sitting in that spot, experiencing the class as you did.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't even so much deja vu where it was like that moment felt like a repeat.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: It was just I've been in this room before, but I've never been here before.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that was weird.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: But the way that deja vu works is it's basically your memory you printed in the wrong way.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_04: You've told me it's you experiencing the present, but your brain interprets it as a memory.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: A memory, but it's like a weird brain malfunction.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's like a synapse in your brain, like misfires.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_04: A little glitch where it's glitched.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like putting in the wrong place in your brain.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_04: Which I like to just think of deja vu as oh, I'm meant to be here at this house.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it a clairvoyance thing?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: Did you actually have a dream about it at some point?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: It is a weird concept.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: But this wasn't quite deja vu.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: This wasn't that.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: This was full-on Aliz and is now in in court or at an inquiry saying, Yep, I'm a witch.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm guilty.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: I've sold my soul to the devil.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Whether she actually has or hasn't, she probably just believes it because she's just like, holy moly, I'm I'm powerful.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: I guess I guess I did, and I didn't even realize it.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't realize my own strength.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so she admits to hurting John through her curse.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: And then I think because she's saying all of this, like her brother and her grandmother quickly chime in, and in either to protect her or just to deflect or whatever you want to call it, they start saying, Okay, but we're not the only witches in town.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_04: And that's when accusations start getting thrown back and forth, where they're like, Do you know about the family called Chaddock's, like the Chaddock's family?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_04: And they're all of a sudden saying they're their matriarch, who's about the same age as Elizabeth Demdike, who's again the matriarch of the Demdike family.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_04: Allison's grandmother.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, of that family.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_04: They're saying the opposite matriarch and Chaddock's, like, she's actually murdered four people by witchcraft.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: Like trying to one up, like, well, their grandma's worse than our grandma.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_04: So they're now just throwing these wild accusations, like, she's murdered four people by witchcraft.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, they're even saying that she killed uh, I believe it was Elizabeth's like son-in-law.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_04: So um Allison's mother, who's not present at this time, her name's Elizabeth Devis.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: That'd be Allison's dad.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Allison's dad.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_04: So they're like, Allison's dad was actually killed by this witch as well.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_04: So they now say back in 1601, John Devis was killed.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_04: And this is a funny story they give.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_04: They say the proof was that there was this, like, I guess, like, situation set up between the families where Ann Chaddock's, again, the matriarch of the opposing family, she essentially demanded eight pounds of oatmeal a year.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_04: It's such a weird specific thing.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: I know, very bartering.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_03: Not seven pounds, not nine pounds.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want money.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: I just want oatmeal.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_04: Just have it ready for me on time.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_04: So they had this arrangement.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, this arrangement where the Quaker oats are dropped off eight pounds of it every year in exchange for their protection.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_04: So she says, I won't curse you or your family if you just give me this oatmeal.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_04: Which is again her admitting that she's a witch.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so John Devis does this while he's living.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_04: Every year, for multiple years, he's giving her the eight pounds of oatmeal.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_04: And then the one year he doesn't, he dies mysteriously.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, so now again, the Demdike family is like, you think we're witches?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_04: The Chaddock's area.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, on his deathbed, he said it was the Chaddockes.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's because I didn't I didn't give my offering to them this year.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, it's it's the whole thing.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's like weird coincidences, but like again, they're not super educated.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: They live in the outskirts of nowhere.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: They have nothing else to believe.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: This is all they've known for probably generations.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: And they don't know medicine, they don't know about strokes and anything.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: They just yeah, add it up to well, what what did I do wrong?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's all it's all karma and curses and like who owes what to who.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_04: So that's all they believe.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so what does what does Noel do, the magistrate?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_04: He decides to bring everyone in and start questioning more people.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: So April 2nd, 1612, so this is only a few days later, he then brings in Elizabeth Demdike again, who's the grandmother of Allison, and he brings in Ann Chaddock's, the other grandmother of the other family, and he brings in Ann Chaddock's daughter, whose name is Anne Redfern.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_04: So he now has these people all together, and he's like now saying, Okay, admit to me now if you are all witches, like what's going on here?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: And Elizabeth Demdike, who's already kind of uh uh there before, already present, she's like, Yes, I'm a witch, and I've been a witch for at least 20 years.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, she admits she sold her soul to the devil 20 years ago.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and also both of the matriarchs, Elizabeth and um and Anne, they're in their 80s.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: They're at the time they were blind, they're widowed.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, it's like, all right, give it up.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do what you want to do.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: But of course, like it's um now affecting the rest of their family and their daughters and everything, too.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: But exactly.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_04: And and Ann Chaddock's um, the other grandmother, she again is also admitting guilt, but she's saying, you know, the reason I sold my soul was so I could get revenge on whoever I desire.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_04: So they're both just kind of come and clean, like, yeah, we're witches, we've been witches for a while, like what of it?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what are you gonna do?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_04: And again, is this an attempt to take the heat off of the rest of their family because they're old and blind and widowed and they don't really care taking one for the team, or are they just like Negan said, just so like whatever?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, here's who we are, what are you gonna do about it?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: So the daughter, then Ann Redfern, she's the only one who doesn't confess.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: However, they had some type of evidence that she made clay figures, which I alluded to earlier.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: So the clay figures it is kind of like a voodoo doll situation, like a little puppet.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but they would is exactly what it was.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: They would make these little figures of neighbors or people that they had it out for and curses, and they made little dolls out of them out of clay, and that that's what they used to put pins into their pins into.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um and there was also another witness who came into this inquiry.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: Her name was Margaret Cook, and she says that her brother got sick and died only after that she had a disagreement, he had a disagreement with Anne Redfern.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like again, neighbors coming, pointing fingers.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: Anytime that someone had a little bit of a tizzy over someone and then they happen to have died, right?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's a curse.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: And that's exactly where this term witch hunt comes from, right?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's like as soon as there's blood in the water or someone might be in remote, you know, trouble of or an accused of being a witch, you all come forward in droves being like, yeah, one time she called me ugly.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like one time she stole my sheep, you know.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: They got very offended, but it's other people's lives.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: So there's this term called maleficium.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: Maleficium.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: Maleficium, which means causing harm by witchcraft.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: I like that word.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of a cool word, right if I'm saying it right.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Malef Maleficium.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: Maleficium.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_04: Sounds like Maleficent.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_04: I was gonna say, I think I read somewhere in like a Disney archive, something or other, that Maleficence name comes from um malecence and magnificence together.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_04: Maleficence.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: The magnificent malefic.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna nope.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's beautiful.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: The magnificent maleficium.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: Is that our episode title?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: Could be.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I can't.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: No, we all know what that means.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: I like it.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: Anyways, they are charged with that.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: The harming of others with by doing witchcraft.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: And all of them are sent to the Lancaster jail.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's the two matriarchs.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's also uh Alizan herself, and then Anne's daughter, Anne Redfern.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: So we've got grandmother, granddaughter, another grandmother, and then her daughter.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: So four different.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: Two separate, yeah, two separate families.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: So at this time, it is now April 10th, and it is Good Friday.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: And Elizabeth Devis, she is Allison's mom.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: So it goes again.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of names here.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: So Elizabeth Demdike is the matriarch.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: Elizabeth Devis is her daughter, and then her daughter is Alice, Allison Devis.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: Devis.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: Got it.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: Devis.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_03: Devis.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: So on Good Friday, Elizabeth the mother decides to host a quote meeting at her place.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: Which sounds like a party, to be honest.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_03: Really, I think it was a party.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: So their home is called Malkin Tower.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: Which let's talk about Malkin Tower for a little bit.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Malkin Tower, and it's currently like in the Pendle Hill area.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I don't think their actual hovel still exists, but it wasn't a tower.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_04: It was like a shitty house.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I say shitty because this one documentary we watched said that locals also called it Mocking Tower, and mocking meant shit.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_04: Again, this whole family was just made fun of in the village.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_04: That's pretty bad.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_04: Your house is called Shit Tower.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's just kind of like the family with like the dirty kids, and they don't quite have it together, and they're really poor, but they also steal a bunch of stuff, and everyone just kind of like avoids them.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, they lived in Malkin Tower, so everyone called it that they lived in Shit Tower.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: Shit Tower, yeah.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: So sad.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: But they still have neighbors and friends.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: All the other deviants out there in the village.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_04: Never mind that for this party, uh, James stole a sheep.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, James the brother.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: To celebrate.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Just to feed everyone for a meeting.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: For a meeting on Good Friday.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the people who were gathering, it was their friends, it was their neighbors, and it was their sympathizers too.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: It was people who knew their situation that Elizabeth's daughter and her mother were in jail right now for witchcraft, and um, they felt bad for them, you know, they were there to support.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's not a coincidence it was on Good Friday.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: Again, they are all Catholics, but they're not supposed to be.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: So, more than likely, this party/slash meeting of swords is really for them to take communion and celebrate Catholic Mass on Good Friday.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: But they couldn't advertise that, they couldn't share that in any way.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: And Roger Knoll, who we mentioned earlier, he's um the Justice of the Peace for Pendle.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: He's curious and he decides to kind of snoop around, show up, investigate, and figure out what's going on.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when things really start going down.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because he really wants to prove his worth, and he knows that by catching Catholics and catching witches is gonna make him look like such a great justice of the peace.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like he's really doing his job and just swooping up cleaning up the streets of Pendle.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, which leads into April 12th.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: He puts together an inquiry.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: So just two days later, he wants to know who was there, why were they there, what were they doing, why did they steal a sheep?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but he starts calling people in to figure out what happened.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: And after all is said and done, he decided of the attendees of this meetingslash party, eight of them were witches.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: So the eight that are now uh newly accused are Elizabeth Devis, who's Allison's mom.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_04: Elizabeth.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_04: Hostess of the party.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_04: Hostess of the party at Shit Tower, James Devis, the brother, right?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh-huh.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, a woman named Alice Nutter, who's one of the more famous uh people in this whole era.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I hate to say it, but the reason she's a little more famous than the others is because she's like a Catholic noblewoman.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_04: So she's a little bit wealthier.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: She's not just there because she's also impoverished and like hangs out with the same crowd.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_04: We think she's there mostly because she's like pretty Catholic and they're holding a Catholic ceremony in secret.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and they also think a reason she was targeted is because she was in the middle of like a land dispute with Noel.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_04: So he's kind of like perfect.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_04: Whether she's at this party or not, we're gonna get her too because she's Catholic and she's fighting over land with this prominent magistrate.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_04: And then the other names of the accused are Catherine Hewitt, John Bulcock, Alice Gray, and Janet Preston.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_04: And they decide for the time being, until the trial, y'all are arrested.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing that's interesting about Alice Netter, too, is she had two relatives that were Catholic priests who were hanged drawn and quartered, one of them at Tyburn.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: So she already had like a complicated history.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's funny that like Noel landed on what they were doing was witchcraft.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: Why didn't he just say they were getting together to practice Catholicism?
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, which in itself was a crime at the time.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_04: Either way, it's a crime.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_04: So why go to witchcraft when you have Catholic as the easy go-to?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's obviously what they were doing.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: But instead he's like, No, you're all doing witchcraft.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: Unless again he associated witchcraft with Catholicism.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_04: I which, yeah, in this day and age, it was weirdly cast into the same bucket, which is so ironic.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh weird.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, so he said, Okay, well, all of you are now going to join the four already imprisoned in this teeny tiny cell all the way in Lancaster.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so the Lancaster Jail, we we saw a documentary.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_04: It was actually History Alice, if you know her.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_04: She's really great.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_04: She's awesome.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um Alice, if you are ever listening to this, and if you want to come on the show, please do.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_04: DM us.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but uh History Alice did a little like 20-minute history hit uh video where they go into the like jail at Lancaster, and it's so tiny.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_04: I want to say it's probably like, I mean, no bigger than the room we're in right now.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's a nice room I'm in.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's a decent size.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_04: I wouldn't want 20 people in here.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_04: I was gonna say they've already stuffed like 12 people in here, and I think there were eight additional prisoners already there.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, about about 20 people.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_04: It's deep underground as well, and it's April, right?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_04: So they said that there was probably water linking from the walls, like it's rainy, it's freezing down there.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_04: And they said there was no like sanitation, so they're probably all like going to the bathroom around each other.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there's also shackles on the ground.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_04: So like there were some of them that were probably unruly were probably shackled to the ground, like terrible conditions, and they were there for a few months until trial.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: They thought shit tower was bad until they got to Lancaster Jail.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, try shit Lancaster jail.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's actually imagine being in there for months on top of each other, sick, disgusting, yeah, and you have nothing to do but worry and think about your fate.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and you're with a rival family.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I didn't even think of that because the I always get their name wrong, the Chaddock, the Chaddock's family and the Demdike slash devices, Devises, Devises, these names.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: They all they hated each other.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: For for generations they hated each other.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: In a like an eight by ten, like an eight foot by like ten-foot room with the family that you hate.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my god.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like, and you probably don't have enough energy to even fight.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you're probably squabbling for the first two days.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_04: Shut up, and yeah, and then you know, accusations are probably being flown back and forth, and then at a certain point, you probably just give up and you're just like you put us in this situation.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: No, you did.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then you just like we're all gonna die anyway.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_04: Dying on the ground.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and unfortunately, some did.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yes, yeah.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: So the matriarch of the Devis family/slash Demdike family, right?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Elizabeth Demdike, unfortunately, because again, she was elderly, she was in her 80s, she couldn't handle these conditions.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: No, um, she sadly passed away while waiting for trial in the jail.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: So it was serious, you know?
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and in this era about it, but yeah, it sucks.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_04: In this era, too, like disease was super common whenever you were imprisoned with other uh people in like low sanitary conditions.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_04: So you have things like uh typhus and you have um I think typhoid was the other one, right?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_04: Tons of things.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_04: You had yeah, you had a lot of um just just bad things going around.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_04: And as soon as one prisoner caught it, you all caught it.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like you're in such tight quarters.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they're and they're wet.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's ugly it's terrible.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um but there's a lot of people up for trial.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: There is, which means there's a lot more to talk about because there are 11 minus one.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: There were 12.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: There were 12.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: There were 12, but now there's 11 people who are who are up for trials.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: So um you'll have to tune into the next episode to see the fate of those eleven eleven.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth, any final words for now?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, until next time.