Latest / Global Leadership Collaborative / #09: Don't Quit: Swapna Alexander & Alex Mathew, Faith Comes By Hearing
Transcript
- Woody McLendon: Hi, and welcome to the Global Leadership Collaborative Podcast. My name is Woody McLendon, and I'm your host. The goal of this podcast is to encourage current and future leaders in the Bible translation movement around the world, and we do that through conversations with current leaders who are willing to share their journey of following Jesus and serving in Bible translation. So I'm thrilled today to welcome some dear friends, husband and wife team, Swapna and Alex Mathew, who both currently serve with Faith Comes By Hearing. Alex is the Vice President of Oral Bible Translation, and Swapna is the Global Translation Quality Manager. And they're connecting from their office in Albuquerque, New Mexico with Faith Comes By Hearing. So Swapna and Alex, thank you so much for joining today. And I'm delighted to have you both as a couple, this is new for me to interview two together, but to have you both on the podcast today. Swapna and Alex Mathew: Thank you, Woody. It's so wonderful to meet with you and thank you for inviting us to the Global Leadership Collaborative Podcast. Yes, thank you for having us, Woody. Woody McLendon: Yeah, it's a great joy. And and you guys are both gifted and I'm excited to have the conversation together. So I'd like to jump in actually to a really pivotal time in your ministry when you were forced to leave the village where you were serving. Take me back to that time. What was happening and what did that mean for your work? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Well, Woody, as you know that when you go to your mission field, there is lot of excitement, that is there's a lot of dreams, thinking that okay, we are going to do something for the work of the kingdom. And we went to this community, it was a cross-cultural work environment for us. We started living in the village, learning the language, making friends in the village. And then boom, an incident happened in the same district that we were living and persecution broke out and we could no longer live in in the village and that was really, really discouraging for us at that time. Woody McLendon: So what happened for you? How did how did this actually impact you? You you had to leave and then what? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, we were in a village situation at that time, so we had to relocate to a nearby town, and then our villagers were not very used to traveling outside of their immediate vicinity. So to bring them over to the town and work with us was a great challenge, and of course we were just building a relationship, so how much could they trust us? So that was also there. So for quite a bit of time we didn't have any help to continue with the work that we intended to do. Woody McLendon: So Swapna, what was the hardest one of the hardest parts of that season for you personally? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, it was a time of waiting without knowing what's happening and whether even there was a way to move forward. So that was very difficult because that was also a time when we started even thinking, is it worth the wait or should we move on to something else and invest our time there? Like student ministry that both of us were part of. So that was the difficult part. We were not able to see a way forward how to connect again with the community or restart the translation process. So as Swapna said, no, we were not sure whether we can continue this work and we really wanted to quit. But the person who was supervising over us at that time said, even if you don't do anything, just stay in the field, don't quit. And many years later when I look back at my early ministry and life, perhaps that was one of the best advice we received, no, and not to quit and to hang in there. Woody McLendon: So what did you see God do as you were waiting? How did He lead and guide and direct you beyond the don't quit encouragement to persevere? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Eventually we came out of it, took it took a couple of years to come out of it, and then the Lord brought a group of young people from the community to work with us. no. And so we equipped them, we trained them, and we were able to start the translation work eventually, no. And fast forward to 2016, the New Testament was dedicated. So whatever we intended to do, God eventually accomplished it, and that brings a lot of joy and satisfaction. Yeah, and another thing that God taught us, Woody, at that time was we went with the training that we were going to learn the language, analyze language, and learn the language and do the translation with the language assistant as the person was called during those times. But this situation forced us to think differently. And their mother tongue translators were not much of a thing during those days, but this forced us to train the people, equip the people, just because we knew we did not have enough language to be taking this whole load ourselves. But that was beautiful because as we were working with them, we realized that this is the way forward. So I am very happy that God turned the situation into a teaching point for us because we learned that it is this work is better done by the native people, the mother tongue people. Woody McLendon: Wow, thank you. Thank you. So are there other key lessons that you draw from that season that you still remind yourselves of or encourage others with for from what God taught you then? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Bible translation is a difficult work. It's a complex work, no? So many different dynamics come into play. So but the biggest takeaway for me is to have patience. Patience, hang in there, and the work will eventually get done. Woody McLendon: Thank you. I'd like to loop loop back now and start back a bit at the beginning about your growing up and families. So Swapna, let me start with you. Tell me about where you were born and your family growing up. Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah. I was born in the south of India in a state called Kerala, and there are quite a good number of Christians there. And I grew up in a Christian family, and we attended church every Sunday very religiously. And my parents, both of them were very active in the church, and both of them were also professionals, so then for them church every Sunday was very important. And I grew up in the church attending Sunday school, singing in the choir, and everything related to the church. And and at home also we had our evening prayer time together, and for our for our Sunday school lessons and for our Bible readings, we had our own Bibles that we read that my mother paraphrased for us to understand because the version that we were using was probably beyond us, language-wise for young kids like us. So that is how I grew up. That was my childhood basically, reading my mother's version of the Bible. Woody McLendon: How wonderful. What a what a special treasure and a gift. So who was a significant influence on you, other than your obviously your mother, your your family, who else was a an influence on you at at that point in your life toward your life in ministry today? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, there when I look back, I can see a lot of people who have influenced me, and I learned a lot from our Sunday school teachers, the the friends we had, our family friends who were good Christians. But early on it's in my life I saw that, you know, we are all human beings, and all these people I look up to are also fallen creatures and the fallen nature c shows up. So very early on in my life, I don't remember when, at some point, I realized that okay, we are all together in this needing God's grace, and if there is a role model I can follow, that has to be Jesus. So I I'm like, okay, look up to Jesus, turn your eyes upon Jesus. That became my theme. But I have to thank all the people that influenced me in my during my childhood and young adulthood. Woody McLendon: And so at what point did you feel called to make a personal decision, personal commitment to follow the Lord Jesus? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, like I said, we used to very diligently read the Bible and study it. And for me, Bible was like any other textbook that I had to read, and I would very diligently note all the names, places, and everything, all the wars that Israel fought and all the stories in the Bible. And then that was the Bible for me, another history book that I went through. But it was during my middle school that I went and attended a camp for middle schoolers that was run by Child Evangelism Fellowship in partnership with our church. And then the speaker was speaking uh from John 15, and he said he read out, I am the vine and you are the branches and was talking about relationship with God, relationship with Jesus. I remember sitting there and thinking, if I can have that close a relationship, like vine and its branches, I want it. That is when I committed my life for Christ. Woody McLendon: Wow, thank you. What a beautiful, beautiful testimony and and and picture of of how God worked in your life. Now, Alex, tell me a bit about your family and where you were born and grew up. Swapna and Alex Mathew: Well, I was also born in a a traditional Kerala family, Christian family of course. So in our families we are known to read the Bible in the morning and in the evening and pray, and that was a tradition I grew up. But mm so I knew about Christ and the Bible from a very young age, going to church and all that. But in my life my real spiritual growth happened when I went to college, and that is where I got connected with the evangelical union or what is known in the US as InterVarsity. And that's where I understood a deeper level of having the personal relationship with Christ, discipleship, and also the whole world of missions, no, it opened up to me because of my fellowship with InterVarsity in India. Woody McLendon: So as God got a hold of your heart, both for your personal walk with Jesus and this call into mission, what did that look like in practice for you and what steps were you called to take that you followed in? Swapna and Alex Mathew: with regard to faith we have to be disciples and serious about it, no. And that means that giving up many things that we would like to do but walking the narrow way. But coming to the larger cause of missions and Bible translation, it was my involvement in InterVarsity that exposed that whole world of missions. And then after I finished my undergrad I went on a missions trip. In fact it was a training exposing us to different aspects of ministry we could consider and that's where I first heard about Bible translation. And this was the early 1990s. So during those days the number India in India was that 250 languages need Bible translation. So when I heard that for the first time, no, I am I was so burdened. But then the big concern I had was that even if I commit my life for this, what difference can it make? It is like a drop in a bucket, no, because the need is so huge. But during that camp that I s I was attending, God spoke to me through Romans 10, verse 14, how he talks about belief. So when I was reading that verse, the question the Lord asked me is that, okay, you hear preaching, you hear many things, but what is your belief based on? And my belief is based on reading God's Word in a language I understand the best. So the next question that came from the Lord was that if the Word was not available in the language you understand the best, where would your belief be now? And then I knew that the Lord was speaking. So that's how I committed my life for Bible translation work. Woody McLendon: Amen. Thank you. Now, Swapna, how did you first sense God's call into ministry and learn about Bible translation? Swapna and Alex Mathew: I was also part of an intervarsity group in another city, and our small group was very much into Bible study and we were all very keen students of the Bible. And I heard about Bible translation fr from that group when we had visitors from SIL and Wycliffe join our meeting and talk about their work. But it was during one of my personal studies I was in the last chapter of Matthew and the Great Commission and I and it touched me, and it and then that is when I saw that we were not just preaching the gospel, we we were called to make disciples. And I remember pushing my Bible away and thinking, how would somebody make someone a disciple without the Word of God? Because you know we can preach as long as we can, but for the person to grow up as a disciple, a worthy disciple of Jesus, he needs the Word of God. That is when I started seriously thinking about Bible translation. Woody McLendon: Wow. so from that in early awareness of missions and Bible translation, did you guys meet first and then commit together or did the journey into ministry start and then you meet? How did that unfold? Swapna and Alex Mathew: I think our journey was separate it because we we lived in different places and I heard it in a different context and Swapna heard it in her own context. So it was but eventually we met up in retreats surrounding Bible translation or trainings surrounding Bible translation. Woody McLendon: So Swapna, tell me about your side of the story there too. Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, so we were both personally committed for the course of Bible translation, and I was absolutely sure that Bible translation comes first. And I did get to meet Alex a few times and one of those times Dick and Edith Hugoniot they were leading Wycliffe Bible Translators at that point, and they were also there, and I Sh Edith came and talked to me and then I had a good conversation with Dick, and after which they strongly felt that this is a match that they they wanted to make. So Edith to this day takes the credit for being our matchmaker. And so she says, I put that idea in Alex's mind. You know. And then of course Woody McLendon: Good for her. Swapna and Alex Mathew: we ha and of course we had a pastor who knew both of us who thought also thought that this is a good match. So in our Indian traditional way our parents met and then decided on the marriage. Woody McLendon: Praise God. Praise God. Was there any questions that your parents had about how you were going to serve and follow? I mean, being Bible translators probably wasn't a common opportunity for and there might have been family expectations in other directions. How how did you navigate that conversation within the broader family? Swapna and Alex Mathew: For me, of course, when you become marriageable age, p the p in our culture, at least during those days, the family would start looking for someone. But I was very convinced that I should marry somebody who is committed for Bible translation work. So eventually my mother told me, okay, you go and find somebody and we will agree Woody McLendon: Good for her. Swapna and Alex Mathew: we will agree to that, no. And so I I'm happy that they gave me that freedom, no. Yeah and it all worked out well. Woody McLendon: Well, yes, I can see that and praise God for that. At what point then did you actually enter into work in a specific community and how did those details work out? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, have to bring some things into perspective because in the early 1990s, as I mentioned, about 250 languages needed Bible translation and expats could no longer come to the country, stay and do the work. So there had to be a different strategy. So the leaders who were leading at least the vision of Bible translation with SIL and Wycliffe at that time thought, we need to send someone to speak to Christian groups in college campuses and Bible colleges. So that was the first work I did. So I became the mobilizer going to InterVarsity, Campus Crusade, and Bible colleges and other groups talking about the need for Bible translation. And many of these groups were hearing that for the first time also because the idea was that the Bible is available in all the main languages of India including the national language. So there isn't really everybody can understand. And then our education policy was also mainstreaming people, no. So even as good Christians and believers, people thought, people can understand already the Bibles that are existing in different languages. So there is really no need for Bible translation. So we had to go in and create that awareness in these communities. And slowly college students and Bible college students started responding to the need of Bible translation. And so it was great to see first fruits coming out of that and I think that work continued for about two decades into the vision-building work in India and lots of young people came out for Bible translation work. But the huge challenge and problem was that when young people like me came out for Bible translation, we couldn't join SIL as Indian nationals because we couldn't raise the support that was needed and there was no Wycliffe organization to join in India. So people joined whatever organization they could. find. So there were initially lots of challenges and hurdles and many times people don't understand what we are trying to do. Many well-meaning friends would say, why are you wasting your life? You are educated people, why do you want to go to this boonies and do Bible translation? By the time you finish the translation, the language will no longer exist. So th all those kind of things we had to hear. But the fact of the matter is that all those minority languages still exist and they thrive. And thankfully many of those languages have now God's Word. Woody McLendon: Thank you. So where in the process, Swapna, did you guys get married and then begin actually working with the specific community that you were called to serve? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yes, so I'll have to go back a few years, and then yes, like your previous question, convincing our families that we have we are committed for Bible translation was not very easy in the sense that they were genuinely worried how we would find that support because for them their life is that they work and they earn. My parents just could not understand how without a job you're going, and the f interesting thing is that they have always supported missionaries through mission agencies. But for them to imagine that their daughter is going to be a missionary and will be support on on a support and not probably earning was very difficult for them. So it took s took a while for them, and I didn't also want to just get out of the house and just do whatever I wanted to, because in our social circumstance that was not a good thing to do and I wanted my parents' blessings to what I do. But eventually they understood, the Lord spoke to them and they were on board with what we did. But the only only condition my dad w had was that, you know, I think you are a little undereducated, you only have an undergrad degree. So, you might want to go to grad school and get your masters and then you can probably go. So that was his only concern that he's he didn't want to send his daughter out uneducated in his terms. So so I went and joined for my masters in linguistics in the in the Central In University Hyderabad, and then in between r a semester before I completed my MA we got married. So by then Alex had already moved in t among the Juang people that we served. And he he was living there for over a year before I joined him. Woody McLendon: Wow. so as you entered as a married couple and you began the work, obviously as I understand it was quite challenging. It was cross-cultural, as you mentioned. You shared a bit about the the story at the beginning of having to leave because of persecution that broke out. What were you seeing God do in believers in India in the ministry of translation? Because you were right there as this new wave of the work of translation was unfolding, what were you seeing God do and and what were the hard things that you had to be patient through? Swapna and Alex Mathew: At least from the 1990s, it's like the mustard seed, no. It's so small and and it's so insignificant, but there's a lot of faith. And so that mustard seed started growing as far as the Bible translation movement is concerned in India. So the I would say the first wave was the nationals, no, from South India who were called to become cross-cultural Bible translators to many communities and needed needing translation. But in the 2000s we saw lot of mother tongue speakers coming in, no, from their own communities realizing that they need to get trained and equipped to do this work. So we saw wave after wave God building His work in the field of Bible translation. So and then eventually organizations came up with priority to do a Bible translation. So it is something beautiful that Lord Lord did in India. And as we are speaking now, I think there are o over 200 New Testaments that have been translated in the last two, two and a half decades. no. And that is something marvelous the Lord did. And as a result of those translations, churches started in these communities. no. So churches were born and those led by local people and that was something beautiful to witness. Woody McLendon: Wow, hallelujah and praise God. So Swapna, you shared a story about another point of difficulty in the translation process when you were concerned about how the people might actually be able to use this work you were doing. Talk about that a little bit and and and what was that aha moment for you guys in the work that you were doing that's influenced you even today. Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, it was it was honestly one of those days, Woody. I was a little weighed down by the intensity of the work. And we had our our children by then, n two of our children, and then they were small. I had mother tongue translators by then, we were in a s t a small town so when they would come in, and taking care of them, cooking for the whole family, cooking for everyone. And then it was one of those days then I sat down and I thought, oh my God, I looked around and people couldn't read and write. And there wasn't many Christians there. There were so few, just a handful of them. And and I was sitting there and Alex came by, and I I I asked Alex, after all that we do, who will read this Bible we are translating? I was genuinely concerned how we were going to reach people with the Word of God. And it's a it's a very heavy moment when I look back, I was weighed down by this reality that we had the Word of God, which we were translating, but how do we get people to engage with it? And Alex took that very seriously and I am glad he did and he started thinking about that, and that is when he sought out the possibility of partnering with Faith Comes By Hearing to do a recording of our Gospel of Mark. And interestingly, Faith Comes By Hearing at that time was only doing New Testament recordings. So he had to approach the leadership and get permission to do just one book because we were in the middle of the translation and we just wanted to see how we can get the Word to the people that we were serving in a way that they can engage with it. So that is how we ended up recording the Gospel of Mark. And that was our aha moment. We saw what the recording was doing among the Juang people. I mean, Woody, the dream of every Bible translator is that after years and years of work, that finally there will be a a group of people in the community ready to receive it and use it. But and that is the dream and that's what you are we you always hear, and but then for us reality was very different, very very different because it was an oral culture, an oral people, and the adults had no interest to learn to read and write and only the children in the community were interested to go to school or to learn to read. And I did multilingual education in the community, but the number of villages I was able to re reach was only very few. So soon I realized the limitations, no. You have a dream but you have your limitations. How many people can you reach in the community through literacy or multilingual education? So lots of people, in fact majority of the people would are left behind who couldn't read and write, and you need to have a different method or strategy to reach those people with God's Word. no. So that's where audio Bibles came into play, that is where audio recordings of portions of Scripture in Juang came into play. And once those were recording, they were put into devices and distributed in the villages. no. And then God's Word did its work. That's the beautiful thing about it, many of those places did not have an evangelist or a pastor or a missionary. But God's Word went in into those remote places and it did its work, no? And we started hearing people putting their trust in Jesus and that was something beautiful. Woody McLendon: So that was a major shift for you both. And what a joy to see. And Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Woody McLendon: and I want to come back to oral Bible translation and Scripture in a little bit. But there was also another season of change that arrived. Alex, you reached a point where some other things were developing in the country where you got asked to take on a a different position outside the community. Talk a little bit about what that looked like and how you how you processed that as a couple. Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, it was the year 2010 and I was asked to step into a leadership role, no, leading the organization, and so we were still in in the mission field. So if I took on that role it meant that we had to move out of that area and move to South India. So that was a time we d we had to do a lot of soul searching because many times we hear stories, no, that when people move out of their work environment doing Bible translation and do something else, we are never able to get back and finish the work that the Lord originally called us. So we had to struggle through that. But eventually we we had to move out and I took up that role. But the beautiful thing was that the translators who were working with Swapna at that time were also willing to come and live with us in South India so that Swapna could continue the work of the New Testament and eventually complete it. Woody McLendon: Swapna, how was that for you, that decision process, and what what was God doing in your heart at those at that period? Swapna and Alex Mathew: It was not easy like Alex said. We had one setback early on in the ministry and then now this was another one. So that move was probably 50 miles from the village to the small town and now this was going to be a big move to the south of India from east of India where we were. So again I was worried that would be the end of our ministry. And but then when I sat down to read the Bible, you know it's it's very fascinating that you have read these passages several times over and over again, and then you read it, and then the Lord shows you something new. That's the beauty of the Word of God, you know, it's like a treasure that's never ending. You open the treasure box, every time you get a new treasure out. So, this is the story of Noah and the flood that I was meditating on. And then as I was reading, God put this heaviness in my heart, I just couldn't believe that the Lord was telling him to get two of each species of animals. And you look around this, it's not even in thousands, and I just closed my eyes at that time and I thought, my God, this is not as simple as I thought when I was a kid. You know, this is huge. Woody McLendon: Right. Swapna and Alex Mathew: What is the Lord asking Noah to do? And then the next verse says, and all the animals came to him. He he was asked to build the ark, and I I had missed this verse, you know, all the years. And then I realized that God not only gave him the task, he built it, he was obedient to it, and and all the animals came to him so that they could go with him in the ark. And that one sentence gave me so much peace. And I am like, Yes, Lord, if this is the work You have given, I don't have to worry a lot about how You are going to make this happen. And I will move in peace and You will make the work come to me. And and that is exactly what happened. Our mother tongue translators were more than happy to come over and live with us. You know, they would come for a couple of months and then they would go back to their home for a month and they would come back again, and we continued the work and it was done. The Lord did Woody McLendon: Wow. Swapna and Alex Mathew: it. Woody McLendon: Praise God. what a wonderful picture from that story of Noah to think and see that connection and and see how God provided. Thank you for sharing. So, Alex, you were stepping into an executive leadership role in a new ministry focused in the work of Bible translation. This was a big step and a big big point in growing the capacity of believers in India to serve and build vision. What did you see when you started and what did God put on your heart to focus on in terms of developing the organization and developing the people and even growing as a leader? Swapna and Alex Mathew: The task that was given to me by the board at that time was that I need to set up a physical space to work as a central office for the organization, and it involved creating positions and recruiting people to fulfill those different roles that was required to manage the organization. So I did that and then we were in the field, we w served as Bible translators. So I I knew that yes, Bible translation is the primary calling of the ministry, but we need to do a holistic work. no. So our work for tran life transformation should go beyond Bible translation. So it took a few years of work building that team and also developing a holistic ministry for that organization. And it eventually worked out. It eventually worked out, and I'm so glad that even now the leadership who is leading those organizations are continuing, know that it is a holistic ministry, not just Bible translation. And it is serving the people the of the community in a way beyond Bible translation leading to life transformation. Woody McLendon: Praise God. And and so you share it as if it was fairly straightforward, but it wasn't easy, I'm sure. So what were some of the biggest challenges you had to face in prayer before the Lord as you're taking on this executive leadership role? Swapna and Alex Mathew: I mean, of course we are all comfortable with what we know. no. But and you yourself led an organization. So mm going into the areas of the unknown, but the Lord is asking you to go into that area to explore those areas. no. I was very happy that the board was very supportive as we explored those areas, and then there were also some resource people, no, who were willing to guide those discussions. And I was thinking about you, Woody, that you were President of JAARS at that time, and I came to your office and talked about partnering with with the national organization too in certain areas. And I know that I was drawing you out of your comfort zone to partner. Yeah, Woody McLendon: It was great. I love it. Swapna and Alex Mathew: yeah, but we did it. We did it, no. Woody McLendon: We did and Swapna and Alex Mathew: We did, yeah, and that gives me a lot of joy that you were one of those leaders and there were several others also who came alongside and said, let's walk this journey with you. And eventually we were able to do it and God's kingdom grew as a result of that. Woody McLendon: Yeah, I still remember you coming to visit, and I'm grateful because your courage and enthusiasm and passion were exciting for me and for us as a team to engage, which was somewhat new for where we were at JAARS at the time, to work with a national organization as opposed to expat was a great opportunity and and a great blessing. So So Swapna, as you were I'm going to turn to you, as you were continuing the work of translation, your husband's taking on this significant leadership responsibility, you have a family. How are you s shepherding, stewarding all these different responsibilities in the life your life in that season? That sounds like there was a lot. Swapna and Alex Mathew: It was a lot, but as the Word says, My grace is sufficient for thee, and it was very true for me. And looking back, I I don't know how I did all that, but I and I also know that I did not do anything in my own strength. So it was the Lord who guided us, and our children were also very supportive they were in this, they from their very young age, they wanted to do whatever they could to support us. So they were very supportive, very encouraging, and you know never complaining. So, when I look back, we have taken them through very difficult situations in their lives because we were committed for Bible translation, and they have walked this journey with us even to this day, you know, they are very happy that the the Juang New Testament was translated. and it also came to a point that we had this young men living with us in our house and our daughter was in the just after her elementary school, she herself talked to us and said that you know it's like you are have to take me everywhere you go, you know, you I and it's come to a point that she's was very gladly she just decided to move to a boarding school. And that was a huge sacrifice, I think, from her part. Like you know, when she saw what's happening, she had wisdom beyond her age, and then we admitted her to a boarding school near the training center in another city, far from us. So there were adjustments that we had to make as a family, and then there were other responsibilities, but we just continued because our mother tongue translators and us and the church among the Juang people, they were all very supportive and we knew that we had to get this done. So I look back at those days and it I can only see joy in doing this work. Woody McLendon: That's wonderful. And and what a wonderful testimony of the contribution your children have made in your own life and ministry, both just with encouragement and and support. There came a season, after quite a number of years when, Alex, you felt like it was time to hand over the responsibilities in that local ministry that has now taken you to the US and Faith Comes By Hearing. Talk a little bit about that season. What was the Lord speaking to you? What was happening and and how did that unfold? Swapna and Alex Mathew: I had stepped into the role and I was leading and came to the seventh year of leading the organization. Things were all going well I heard very specifically the Lord tell me that I should step down. So I first time I heard it, then I heard it a second time. So when I heard it a second time, I knew that I now need to take this seriously. So I did tell Swapna that maybe our time is coming to an end so with that organization. I asked the Lord, stepping down is not a problem, but where do I go from here? That was the big question in my mind, no? And then I of course I had partners developed partnership with several organizations doing several stuff. So as I started thinking, if I want to go to another organization, which organization would l would I like to go, no? And of course mm each organization had its strength and valuable contribution they were making to the work of the kingdom. But Faith Comes By Hearing stood out because we had our personal experience in the community we were serving, how audio Bibles brought real impact in the community. And then over the years leading the organization, I had developed a partnership with Faith Comes By Hearing to record portions of Scripture, not just New Testament but portions of Scripture. And that was very successful. so my heart was drawn towards Faith Comes By Hearing and I reached out to some of the people I knew who were work representing Faith Comes By Hearing and working in India at that time. Hey, do you think that you will have a place for a person like me to serve alongside Faith Comes By Hearing? And that was the time an interview process, I went through an interview process, and then both Swapna and I traveled to Albuquerque to meet with the leadership and they offered me a position. So God worked it all all all out for us to make that transition, and of course when we moved out we also had to put leadership in place for the organization we were leaving. So it took about six months to do all that, no, before finally we were able to move to New Mexico to take up the role that Faith Comes By Hearing offered me at that time. But it got the Lord worked it all out. Woody McLendon: Swapna, how was it for you in that journey and what were you what was the Lord speaking to you about as you were hearing this from Alex and thinking about the future? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, this w this was fun because we had by then made a couple of moves and this was something which I had never imagined. I was all right stepping down because Alex told me that, by then both of us were having leadership positions in the organization and I was the head of the training department overseeing training for quite a good number of Bible translation projects, and Alex said that there are so many young leaders in this organization. If we stayed, we would stagnate this. This will not grow. We need to move out so that the younger generation or the younger leaders can come up and then they can have their way of leading the organization. So that that was great, you know, and he suggested that working with Faith Comes By Hearing here in the United States is what he is thinking about. And so I asked him whether he had a plan B. He said he did not, he only had a plan A. And I said that is okay because from the Scripture I do not see a single instance where the Lord called Sarah separately, He called Abraham and Sarah followed. So if you as the head of our family is convinced that this is what the Lord wants you to do, we will follow, and God made His way for us to be here and to be serving Him in this capacity here. Woody McLendon: Praise God. That's wonderful. And thanks for sharing that. So for those who may not be as familiar with the ministry of Faith Comes By Hearing, could one of you just give a quick summary about the unique ministry contribution and how Faith Comes By Hearing contributes in the world of Bible translation and Scripture engagement? Swapna and Alex Mathew: So Faith Comes By Hearing traditionally has been serving the oral preference communities in the world. Our founders Jerry and Anet Jackson, they were very focused on reaching the communities, every person with God's Word in a format that they can access. And Anet Jackson is the mother of dramatized recordings and she went all over the world recording the Bible for people to listen to and Jerry gave all the support he could to make this happen. And this ministry was already serving the oral communities, and then in 2012-13, during that time, the ministry also moved into something that we now call as Oral Bible Translation. Because of their decades of experience with oral communities, FCBH was positioned to come up with a software called Render and use all the recordings that was done till then as resource, as reference in the in the software for oral communities to translate the Word of God or orally. It is an icon-based, color-driven software, specially made for oral people. So it requires no expertise, you don't have to read and write. It will take you through the whole process of translation without cutting corners. So that is FCBH's major contribution to the Bible translation movement. And from making the software then to now, when we have over 600 translation projects using Render, it's been a huge leap. And the Bible translation community was very gracious to welcome FCBH into their family. Wycliffe and SIL and Seed Company, Pioneer Bible Translators and all all these partners welcomed FCBH into the translation movement also. So we now serve in the oral Bible translation space in the Bible translation movement. Woody McLendon: Thank you, thank you. That's yeah, it is an amazing thing to see how God's opened the door in just the last decade and the huge progress in working orally in translation, still capturing all the checks and verification processes for a high quality translation, but engaging with the people. So before we move into our last topic area, I'd like to just take a little bit of break from serious things and ask a few fun questions for a smile. You guys have been doing great. I really appreciate it. It's been delightful to to have this time with you. But I'd like to ask just a simple fun question. These are these are fairly short. But first I'd like to say so what's a silly or fun tradition that you guys have as a family that keeps you connected? Swapna and Alex Mathew: I mean, w our lives have been always traveling. no. So travel is a big thing. We all like our kids also enjoy that, going to new places and s meeting people of different cultures and languages and ex tasting different food, no, the cuisine and all that. So that's something we really love. Even though now we live in the US our kids enjoy cuisine from different communities. no. So that's something we do and also celebrating birthdays. Celebrating birthdays, visiting families, that's something we really enjoy. What else? Yeah, that's basically what we we do. All our celebrations revolve around food and the Woody McLendon: Sounds delightful. Sounds wonderful. Yeah. That's great. So you have your offices there at Faith Comes By Hearing. I'm curious, as you sit at your desk in your office, each of you, what what do you see that you look at that brings a smile to your face? Swapna and Alex Mathew: For me in our hallway there are a few pictures of of Anet Jackson. no. So when I walk I see her photos and I smile because she was the one who brought these innovative ideas, you know, into Faith Comes By Hearing about doing dramatized recording. And what also makes me smile is that she started her international travel after 50 years, no, of her life. no. So she traveled quite a bit, training people, equipping people how to do dramatized recording. And she was a pioneer in that area, and that really makes makes me smile and brings a lot of joy when I look at her photographs. Woody McLendon: Well thanks. And Swapna, what about you? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yeah, for me it's every day when I come into the parking lot, drive into the parking lot, and I see our warehouse building and it brings a smile on my face every single day. Because you have visited us here and it is not a fancy office. But just that sight gives me the assurance that I am in a place where they are very judicious with our resources. FCBH leadership is very intentional that our resources that God has entrusted us with through our donors is used in a in a way that pleases God. So there isn't anything fancy in this office and I love it, you know. And just that sight of that warehouse building makes me smile. Woody McLendon: That's wonderful. Thank you. So another question for you is what's something unique about you that most people wouldn't know, Swapna? Swapna and Alex Mathew: that's a tough question. I was thinking about what's unique about me. Maybe that for me to do something or to speak about something, I need to be very convinced, I need to be experiencing that. So I just cannot speak about things that are hypothetical. So now that I am leading the consultant pool here and managing quality, for me it is very important that I do check, consultant check on projects so that I can speak from my experience. So that's probably that about me. And I'm very black and white. I'm working on my grey area, but that's something unique about Woody McLendon: That's okay. That's great. Swapna and Alex Mathew: me. Woody McLendon: And Alex, what about you? What's something unique that most people might not know? Swapna and Alex Mathew: I think over the years one of the things I have really enjoyed, Woody, is that when people have a burden and a vision for Bible translation but they just can't do it by themselves, no. So coming alongside them and enabling them to mm do the work so you train them, you equip them so that they are thriving eventually doing that work, that brings a lot of joy to me. In fact, even in the work of oral Bible translation we do, one third of our partners have never done Bible translation before. But once we heard about their vision and their burden, we have come alongside them, we have equipped them, we trained them so that they can run with their vision for Bible translation. And that brings a lot of joy to me. Woody McLendon: Well, thank you both. So I'll stick with you, Alex. One more kind of fun question and also an interesting one. How many languages do you speak? And when you read or listen to the Bible, which language do you prefer and why? Swapna and Alex Mathew: I mean, that we come from a very multilingual, multicultural Woody McLendon: Right. Swapna and Alex Mathew: country. So if I say I speak only one language that wouldn't do justice. So I speak at least five languages. But because of my upbringing, the w where I was brought up, I do speak my mother tongue, but I prefer listening to God's Word in English and that's my go-to language. Woody McLendon: Well Swapna, what about you? How many languages do you speak or read? And which for you is the language you prefer when you listen or read the Scriptures? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yes, so for me also I speak five languages, then because of what I do I have to learn the Biblical languages also. When it comes to listening or reading the Bible I also do a bilingual way because I like to listen to my Bible in my mother tongue and also English. I do both. You know, because growing up I memorized the Bible verses and passages from my mother tongue, so that is still there, you know. So Woody McLendon: That's great. Thank you. So as we come to a close, I have a few last questions I'd like to talk about. The thing I'd like to touch on first is just the role of oral Bible translation in the Bible translation movement. You guys have been part of pioneers to see this get developed and now expand literally all over the world. So what do you see God doing in this work of oral translation that encourages you? Swapna and Alex Mathew: This is a dream come true, true for me especially because for many, many years, no, we wanted to have a breakthrough and innovation where mother tongue people can be trained to do this work. But you know in the text world it's a huge learning curve. But with Render and with oral Bible translation, I would say that we have lowered the ladder to climb, no. So the learning curve is much shorter and we are succeeding in doing it, to see seeing really oral speakers being able to do Bible translation into their own mother tongue. That's a huge thing and I really appreciate what the Lord is accomplishing through this work. Woody McLendon: That's wonderful. Swapna, as you reflect back on the many decades of service in Bible translation that you've both experienced, what what gives you the most joy as you look back over over your season of involvement? Swapna and Alex Mathew: What gives me the most joy is to see people engage with God's Word. And you would know this, Woody, as consultants, we have this privilege of seeing when a person is interacting with God's Word for the first time. And over this last so many years I've seen that so many times the expression changes, some people are reduced to tears. Some people are joyful, they are smiling, they are laughing and they're like, this is so good. And just knowing that what you're doing is actually impacting people, real people out there, that's what gives me the most joy. Because you just see that pure emotions, you that raw emotions coming when they interact with God's Word, and that is precious. I don't think I'll give that up for anything else. Woody McLendon: That's wonderful and thank you. And it is really precious and a beautiful thing to see. And what a privilege to be a part of of that and and witness it firsthand. So Alex, what challenges do you feel that we in the Bible translation movement globally still need to address together in this this coming season before us? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Woody, I don't know whether it's just challenges or opportunity. Woody McLendon: Okay. Swapna and Alex Mathew: So I would say that we are at a point of time in history where I think we need to focus on the speakers of the language, no? Speakers of the language, how do we build confidence in them through training, through equipping and empowering and releasing them that they can do the job? We are at that point. And I think that's where we need to spend our focus and our energy. Woody McLendon: Amen. Well thank you for that. Now, both of you interact with leaders all over the world. What advice or counsel would you have for either current leaders or those who may be sensing a call to leadership in the future? Swapna and Alex Mathew: Yes, know, in our work we hear a lot of numbers. Numbers can be encouraging, but sometimes numbers can be dismaying too. But behind those numbers are real people out there, you know, and that should be our focus and we should keep doing. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep do not get tired of doing good. God will honor honor your efforts. So be obedient to what He is calling you to do now and work with God like-minded people. Partnership is a beautiful thing. See, even at Faith Comes By Hearing, we would not have come up with Render had it not been for Seed Company holding our hands. So it is beautiful to see people partnering, organizations partnering in God's kingdom, and just do what we are doing and I'm sure we will have a lot of pleasant surprises in heaven. Woody McLendon: Amen. Alex, what would you add? Swapna and Alex Mathew: We have seen over the last few decades we first had Vision 2025, then now we are all pursuing Vision 2033 and different expressions of that. But way beyond all this slogans and visions is the Great Commission. You and I and we are here because of the Great Commission Jesus Christ gave, no? And that doesn't change. That doesn't change and it stands in our generation. And we need to work towards fulfilling that Great Commission as leaders, no, and not be swayed by sloganing or visions. no. That is the what we need to focus and see that we do our best and work our best to see that in our lifetime when we stand before the throne of God that we can with a clear conscience said, Yes, I ran my race to fulfill the Great Commission for my generation. Woody McLendon: Amen. Well, thank you both. It's truly been a delight to have you and I appreciate deeply you sharing your insights. This has just been a great deal of fun. So thank you both. And to all of you who are watching or listening, thank you for joining for this conversation. My encouragement to you is if any of any of these words or this message that Swapna and Alex shared were an encouragement to you in some way, think of someone who would be encouraged to hear also their testimony and share this podcast with them so that they can experience the encouragement that we've enjoyed. And so Lord bless you. Thank again, Swapna and Alex. Truly a delight and a blessing to have you as friends and partners in ministry. And we'll I'm excited about what the the future will hold. Thank you so much for your ministry. Swapna and Alex Mathew: Thank you very much, Woody. Thank you for having us. Thank you, Woody. It was a delight talking to you. Woody McLendon: Well, thank you and blessings.