Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Make Room for Messy: Creativity in the Age of AI | Tim Needles

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Make Room for Messy: Creativity in the Age of AI | Tim Needles · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

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Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
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This EdTech podcast. I'm Jeremy Mikla, joined
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by co -host David Berner. And we're welcoming
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as our guest here today, Tim Needles. Tim, this
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is take two for you. I know we had a great conversation.
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I know, I think it was back in April or May.
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And we had a little snafu, a little glitch that
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sometimes happens and we lost the recording of
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it. And we've been trying to get you back on
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here since that time to get another take at it,
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another swing to try to knock this one out of
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the park as well. But we're really excited to
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have you back. And thank you for understanding
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the glitch that we had. Shuri, I know it happens.
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It's tech. I mean, like, you know, you get used
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to pivoting. That happens all the time. And it
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was nice to meet you guys in person, too. I think
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I was at ISTE. I bumped into you. Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah. We ran into you. You were just finishing
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up a session on, like, one of the stages there
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that they had. And we went up. And that was,
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yeah, it was really great to be able to connect.
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But, you know, Tim, since people didn't really
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get to see or hear from you the first time, can
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you kind of give us a little rundown of your
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journey as an artist and educator, tech integration,
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and how you tie those different things together?
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Yeah, it's interesting. So I've been teaching
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for almost 28 years now. So I primarily started
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as an art teacher in high school. But I used
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a lot of tech and then I started teaching media
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art film things like that. So I just used a lot
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of technology and You know really became a steam
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teacher I wrote a book on steam for ISTE called
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steam power that kind of Changed my trajectory
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a little bit and then My district had opening
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for an educational technology position that I
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took no one had occupied it before I do really
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highly recommend taking a job No one's had because
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you have total freedom to really make that job
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your own So now I am the district's K -12 technology
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integration specialist. So I teach technology,
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but also secretly creativity, which is kind of
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fun. And I really help teachers in any way they
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need. So my favorite thing is that I still get
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to go into the classrooms and teach with other
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colleagues. So it's a lot of collaboration. You
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get to co -teach. You get to do the PD sessions
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for the school. And then I really go around the
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world now and speaking. I have another book that
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I'm writing now for ISTE about creativity in
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the age of AI, which is becoming more and more
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important. And I get to do just really fun things.
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I'm an artist and writer also, so I always kind
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of take the artwork and the process that I'm
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doing and kind of infuse it into education. Uh,
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which is kind of fun. So like things like, you
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know, I got to work with, okay, go the bands,
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uh, and develop some lessons for them recently,
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uh, that were like steam integrated and that
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kind of thing. So it's always interesting, a
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blend of creativity, technology and education.
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Yeah. Well, that seems pretty great. You seem
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to, you know, have this position that you've
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almost created for yourself and you've built
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in time for you to be able to do other things,
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you know, uh, whether they they be collaborating
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with other teachers or collaborating and coming
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as a guest on a podcast or going off in leading
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professional development in other places? Is
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that been a pretty seamless thing? You get a
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lot of leeway to be able to do those those different
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things sort of, you know, like as a creative
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person, you find a way to make it happen. Yeah,
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it's what happens because it's like, you know,
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our schools are not really set up for that. You
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know, we generally go to like one conference
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a year. So like as a result, like I. you know,
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AI and things like that, some of the technologies,
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especially the merchant technologies are just
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moving too quickly for one conference a year
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to be able to make the difference. So I have
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to kind of really stay on top of things. So,
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you know, I've been doing a lot of work with
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the companies themselves to kind of see where
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they're going for the next six months. There's
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a lot of those sort of programs that are available.
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You know, Adobe has the Microsoft Google that
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really, really helps. So you kind of have an
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idea of like what direction they're going in.
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And It's I would never call it seamless. It's
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like very seemful, but Very interesting. You
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never really know what's gonna happen And with
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the technology just moving so quickly, you know
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what you're able to do with it has changed dramatically
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So, you know, I always kind of have that lens
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on of like how could this help students learn?
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Or teachers be more efficient and then you're
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kind of making things work to whatever ability
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you're able to so I'm in charge of 13 buildings,
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right? So like that's a lot to kind of from one
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person to manage. So, you know, I make videos
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every week that share new technology in five
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minutes or less. That helps a lot. Being able
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to take exemplar lessons and stuff like that
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and share them out with templates and stuff like
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that has helped a bunch too. You know, I'm agreeing
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with you here 100%. I think my experience in
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the classroom too gives me this lens. I'm always.
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When I'm coming across something new, I'm looking
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for, is there a classroom application for this?
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Is there a way that this could be used to help
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teachers or students? And I just think that that
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has just become something that I just naturally
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do now. Whether it's in an education space or
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not, or if it's just some cool thing that I see.
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And I'm like, wow, I think this could be really
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great in this situation. Yeah, I think that's
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the key on some really great lessons I mean like,
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you know, just having that hat on you gets to
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be second nature And especially in non educational
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things. That's where it's really interesting.
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It's like, oh, wow, like this has a really good
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I'd love to bring this into the classroom and
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be able to show them. It's really relevant So
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like that those are the really interesting ones
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that the non education stuff whether and like,
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you know having a foot in art and music and technology
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personally really helps with that kind of stuff.
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I've been writing a song a day for about six
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months now, and you're able to flesh out a song
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with AI and get a better idea of it really quickly.
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So it's changed the process a lot. So being able
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to take that process and then bring it into a
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classroom and share it with students that are
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able to use it in the technology. I always loved
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when, you know, like a standard core class would
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bring in a creative assignment. So like being
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able to write a song about, you know, a math
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problem or something like that is always kind
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of really fun. And Tim, you had mentioned to
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the band OK Go, and they've got some really good
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music, for one. But my favorite video of theirs
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is Here It Goes Again, the treadmill one. The
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four of them are on the treadmill, just moving
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back and forth and stuff. Um, it's super, super
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creative. Like they're also known, like they
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have a ton of creative videos, right? And, uh,
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so I wanted to ask you, like you had mentioned
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ISTE and, um, your time there and the, the session
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that you presented reclaiming imagination in
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the age of AI. Do you, do you feel like, um,
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well, first I'll ask you, I guess is like, what
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was the spark for you to, to do that session
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or create that session? Um, was it just like,
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uh, a concern for what's happening with AI and
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how imagination is being decreased as a result
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of that, or what was the thing that kind of pushed
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you to do that? For me, because I'm sort of always
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in like a sandbox or playing with the technology,
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I'm sort of like also thinking about the issues
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that are the most relevant, especially working
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with teachers every day. And like, you know,
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the issue you brought up is really one of the
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central things that kind of led to it, just because
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like AI, the way students use AI. is really mostly
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in that sort of cheating mindset. Just give me
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the answer. Like I don't want to learn anything,
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just give me the answer. So like, you know, that's
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a problem because it just makes lazy learners.
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So like, you know, how do we use this tool and
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like reframe it and make it a thinking partner
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or make it, you know, a learning coach or, you
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know, something that's much more active and not
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just, you know, question and answer all the time.
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So like, you know, there's some tools that are
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really helpful for that. But as an artist, I
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think any technology, any media is something
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that you could make with. You just need to find
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the creative way to approach it. So I was exploring
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that question of what ways could we use this?
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And then it's nice to look at the world and say,
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how are other people in the industry using this
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in creative ways? And certainly, bands like OK
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Go, the videos are amazing, and they take tons
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of planning. it was interesting like one of the
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lessons we did was on how do you plan a big project
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because it's something that's realistic you know
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it's a real world skill lots of people will end
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up using and it's a skill lots of people just
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don't have especially in school so like you know
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it gets overwhelming so like you know breaking
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it down and sort of understanding that is really
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helpful so you know i would have never thought
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i would be teaching into project management but
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like you know i think it's an important skill
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to have And, you know, technology could support
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that now in a way that like, you know, everyone
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sort of has personal assistant that could help
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them do the work. Yeah, a lot of times too, like
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we see where so much of the AI use is, you know,
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right now is revolving around like, I have a
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question, I want an answer to this. So as far
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as the creative process, which involves a lot
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of thinking and sitting there for a while with
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your thoughts and trying things out. What do
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you what do you think the line is for AI use?
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Like when does the AI use become something that
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is actually detrimental when it comes to creativity
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versus something that is helping you express
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your creativity more effectively? Like where
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do you think the line is? I think that's a great
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question. So one of the things that I think is
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really helpful is the brainstorming process.
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AI is fantastic, right? So when you're just coming
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up with ideas, getting different influences,
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getting different perspectives, AI is terrific
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for that. The making part, I still prefer students,
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you don't want to outsource everything to AI.
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So I want them to do some making themselves,
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whether it's by hands. or collaborative or, you
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know, that doesn't matter. But having, you know,
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that's an important element to make sure that
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the students are in there. So one of the things
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I do is like project mapping. So like students
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could use AI as a tool, but like show me how
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you use it, where your idea was, you know, did
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AI change your idea? Did it improve it? Like
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sort of making it a learning lesson itself in
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like your usage of the tools. So if you document
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them, that's sort of like the approach a lot
11:44
of colleges have now. Like some colleges will
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just give you a cloud subscription and say, you
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could use this, but document how you use it.
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So I think that's a more responsible use. And
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then, you know, of course, like iteration. So
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like a lot of students, the typical thing is
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that they want to do it once and done. And it's
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like that is the opposite of really what we want
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to do as educators. It's like, no, no, no, you
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know, AI or whatever technology has helped you.
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make this much, much faster. So let's make five
12:14
of them and see what's the difference in the
12:16
five and what are the strengths and weaknesses
12:18
and understand that you can iterate now in a
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way that you never were able to before. So even
12:25
redesigning our courtyard at our school, it's
12:28
not enough for just one redesign. You could have
12:30
five different students do it and compare ideas
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and then share notes. You could visualize everything
12:37
in a couple of minutes now. So it's like being
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able to pre -visualize is fantastic. with some
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of these tools, because you could really get
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an idea of what it's gonna look like in a way
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that you never could before. So that's exciting.
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Have you seen the Jean Phil stuff on TikTok?
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Oh yeah. Where people basically take that guy
12:59
who's not real and make him in all these different
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video scenarios. So there's videos that were
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already created and then this guy is put into
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them. What do you think about stuff like that,
13:10
where it's like, obviously there's creativity
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to that, but I don't know how, I guess maybe
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it's more like on the shallow side. I don't know,
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what's your thoughts on that? Like, do you feel
13:20
like it's pretty deep if, you know, you take
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a video from TikTok and then you insert this
13:24
person into there? Like, what's your thoughts
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on that stuff? Yeah, I think it's okay to have
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fun, you know, with like a shallow level of creativity,
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because you just don't know where it's gonna
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lead. I mean, a lot of... Great movies and great
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TV shows and great books all kind of come from
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that like play, you know It's really playing
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I think and I love that I mean like, you know
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If I'm being honest if you take a look at my
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use of AI At least a quarter of it is like, you
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know Let me make my friend into a pirate in this
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meeting because it's like a meeting slow So like
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it could use a pirate and you know, like, you
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know doing that kind of thing And having fun
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with it, but you know, that's also skill building.
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So it's like, you know That's the thing that
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people don't realize. At my school, we have the
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superintendent, and we have some assistant superintendents.
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So one of our director of personnel, every time
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I teach all of the tools to teachers, I'll make
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a song about our director of personnel. So being
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able to create a song about someone or something
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like that, you're able to do that and have fun
14:27
with it. and kind of show how good the tools
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are. I mean, with music, it's unbelievable how
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good AI has gotten. It's ridiculous. Like you
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could really do anything now. So, you know, I
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took some of the silly ideas that I've had before
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and I was kind of weaving them together to make
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a play. So like I'm currently working on, you
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know, creating a little musical based on some
14:54
of these silly ideas. So I think like, you don't
14:55
know where things go. I learned that as an artist.
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So it's like, you know being able to just play
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with the tools Has a value so like, you know,
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it's a fun thing that you never know where it's
15:07
gonna go yeah, it's also interesting because
15:10
it it's like the passing of the creativity right
15:14
like someone starts with an idea and then it
15:16
just kind of like Domino like takes over and
15:19
other people do more creative things with the
15:21
original thing, but I feel like the the John
15:24
Phil thing, I feel like someone's probably going
15:26
to make a movie at some point. It's going to
15:28
be like this generation's Napoleon Dynamite.
15:33
Yeah, that's funny. I just saw Napoleon Dynamite
15:35
in the theater like two weeks ago. They had the
15:39
original actors were there during like a performance.
15:40
So it's just like it's such a classic film. And
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like, I totally agree. Like, it's the kind of
15:45
thing that like it's right. And that's that's
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really where it's one of the kind of like societal
15:52
core elements are. So if you're talking to kids,
15:55
understanding memes is necessary, because it's
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like they talk in memes sometimes. So that's
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sort of what you're getting at. The original
16:04
concept of meme came from gene, because it's
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like genetics. It just goes and changes between
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every person. So it's kind of interesting. That
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was the original concept of it. So even GIFs
16:16
are memes, literally. So that kind of thing of
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where's it going to go? is always really fun
16:22
to see. Tim, I want to take you back to a couple
16:26
of things that you have mentioned here, because
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maybe it kind of struck something in me that
16:30
I hadn't really thought about here before. But
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you talked about AI usage by students, and well,
16:37
even adults as well, the importance of the iteration
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part of it. And I want to take you back to like,
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isn't that really a skill that I know as an art
16:46
teacher, I'm sure you try to instill in your
16:48
students that it isn't a one and done in the
16:52
artistic process either. And I know for my wife,
16:55
and I remember her in college, she was a fine
16:57
arts major. And it was never just like, hey,
17:01
I made this painting in like 10 minutes and it's
17:03
done, right? That's not the type of skills that
17:07
you're teaching students when you take an art
17:09
class. It is a very iterative process. And is
17:13
there something that our students or our teachers
17:16
can learn? in an art class that can be transferable
17:21
then to how to work with AI? Yeah, you know,
17:25
my personal feeling is that process is now much
17:28
more important than it used to be because you're
17:31
able to outsource a lot of the kind of work educators
17:34
do to AI. So like a lot of the administrative
17:37
stuff, you know, you can just outsource it. You
17:39
don't need to do all the work that you used to
17:41
do. So it gives you more time to sort of edit
17:44
and learn from the edits. So I think. iteration
17:47
itself is just like a highly, highly essential
17:51
element. I mean, if you look at like, like I'm
17:55
a steam teacher, right? So like you look at like,
17:57
you know, SpaceX, right? Like how many rockets
18:00
do they need to create in order to get it to
18:01
work, right? And they're exploding and like,
18:03
you know, at one point it almost becomes, you
18:06
know, a game of like how many times, you know,
18:08
but like, you know, being able to sort of like
18:10
work with it. And the irony is like, so like
18:12
in the arts, I understood that. And then like
18:14
when I was writing a book, You think writing
18:16
a book is the hard part, but the hard part is
18:19
editing it. You end up rewriting it 10 times
18:22
sometimes, and you don't realize that, oh, that's
18:25
where you make it good. The first draft is actually
18:28
the easy part. It's the editing that's the hard
18:31
part. So it's a skill, and it's a skill we could
18:34
definitely get better at. And as a teacher, I
18:37
found the way I did it is I was always changing
18:39
lessons. So I would come up with an idea for
18:41
a lesson. I would do it. And then you're just
18:44
tweaking it. You're editing it each time, and
18:46
it gets better and better. The lesson you do
18:49
the first time might look really different than
18:51
the 20th time. So really understanding how you
18:55
work, understanding what your process is, is
18:58
really helpful in actually just creating better
19:03
content as an educator, as an artist, as a writer.
19:05
It doesn't matter. It works in everything. And
19:08
I'm sure it's true in pretty much every discipline.
19:10
So that's a skill. we as educators never really
19:14
were teaching students aside from the specifics
19:16
of like the art room but like I think you know
19:19
in math class it's really just as important you
19:22
know especially the upper level math where it
19:24
becomes more creative. So what would you say
19:28
is is the effective balance between using the
19:33
AI tools and creativity you know like it you
19:38
know you know what I mean like I know there's
19:40
the iterative part of it, but there's also a
19:43
feedback loop part of it that is essential. But
19:47
is there a good balance point or is it just trial
19:51
and error until you get it right? I think it's
19:55
trial and error until you get it right and then
19:57
change. So it's not enough to do it the same
20:00
way anymore either, because different tools are
20:03
going to look different too. So it's not enough
20:05
to get your process down. Other tools are changing
20:07
constantly and being able to create is different.
20:11
I mean, the real plus in terms of creativity
20:13
is it's way more democratic, right? So you don't
20:15
need to build 10 years of skills to be able to
20:18
create something anymore, right? Like graphic
20:21
design, like we've all become graphic designers,
20:24
right? Like everyone's creating now in a way
20:25
that like, rarely do people go out and hire a
20:29
graphic designer, unless you're a big company
20:31
or something. So we are all like, you know, not
20:35
everyone has learned the design principles, but
20:37
everyone's designing. So it's like, you know,
20:38
there's a lot of play involved, but you also
20:41
kind of want to understand some of the principles.
20:43
So like that's sort of the catch up that we're
20:45
doing almost as a society now that, you know,
20:48
everyone's like able to create animation, but
20:50
like not everyone understands how animation works.
20:53
So it's like, it's that sort of thing. So it's
20:56
a funny balance that like it's a touchy topic
20:58
in the arts because so many artists are just
21:01
avidly against AI. But I look at AI as just a
21:06
new technology. So when the camera came out,
21:09
people were upset that it was going to ruin painting.
21:12
It's like people are still painting because there's
21:13
a joy to painting. The painting has its own value.
21:16
It's a different thing. They thought it was the
21:18
end of painting. And it certainly changed portrait
21:21
painting because you might not hire a painter
21:23
to sit with you when you can take a photograph.
21:27
And I think that's what we're seeing now in the
21:29
industry. it's definitely changing job roles.
21:34
But like, you know, these things still have a
21:36
value. So I think that's sort of like the interesting
21:39
thing. You know, once you kind of like even make
21:42
a decision about where you're drawing a line,
21:44
the line changes anyway. So like it's a very,
21:46
you know, a process where you kind of need to
21:50
keep sight of the big picture at the same time
21:52
as you're doing the focus thing. It's really
21:55
interesting you brought up that example because
21:56
I was going to bring that up to you with this
21:59
question right here. And so maybe you've already
22:01
answered it, but I'm still going to ask it anyway.
22:04
Is generative AI images, videos, music, art?
22:12
It's a great question. I don't see why not. I
22:15
mean, you know, like I think that creating is
22:18
creating. So like it feels good to create. I
22:20
like as a human making things right. So like
22:23
it's just made it a lot easier. And the problem
22:26
is, you know, as an artist that had to go to
22:29
art school and I had to learn for four years
22:31
I had to learn how to do this and now you could
22:33
do it in four minutes. It's like all right so
22:35
that's a tough you know tough thing to take sometimes
22:38
that like you don't need to build the skill.
22:40
It's like it's not the walls down of you know
22:45
who can create and understand like you know the
22:47
art world itself used to be a really insular
22:49
thing that it was kind of hard to get into. People
22:51
didn't understand it you know and then some artists
22:55
like Keith Haring or Grandma Moses like applied
22:59
to anyone and they decided to kind of go around
23:01
the rules. And that's, you know, like everyone
23:04
like this people like Andy Warhol, I had a factory
23:06
and stuff like that. Like, you know, people kind
23:08
of understood like art could be anything. So,
23:12
you know, I think the traditional art world has
23:14
a huge problem with AI. But I love that I could
23:18
write a song in the morning and I don't have
23:20
all the skills to build a song. But, you know,
23:23
I could actually, you know, I could sing and
23:25
play guitar into my phone and it will take that
23:29
and add a backing band. Like that's fantastic
23:31
because it's like, you know, I just turned 50
23:34
recently and it's like I want to make music and
23:36
it's like I don't have friends in a band. So
23:39
like I'm able to do this and kind of like give
23:41
very specific instructions about how to, you
23:44
know, build the chorus section and like I want
23:46
a horn section. And so like it's tremendously
23:50
useful because it lets anyone create. And it
23:54
lets anyone create and actually have good results,
23:56
because that was always the problem. There was
23:58
a gap. It took skill building to actually get...
24:01
I tried to play clarinet. I was terrible. It
24:05
was weeks of just torture for me and anyone who
24:09
was listening. And I don't want to say this replaces
24:14
that, but it allows me to kind of shortcut it
24:18
and actually create in a different way. You know,
24:22
I think some artists are going to be resistant,
24:25
but I've seen AI used in really interesting ways.
24:28
And one of my favorite pieces is an artist that
24:31
took the entire catalog of everything in the
24:33
Museum of Modern Art in New York, and then made
24:36
it into one moving piece. So like he took references
24:39
from every piece, and then, you know, it kind
24:42
of created this crazy spiral that kind of like
24:45
infuse all of it together in this video piece
24:48
that AI created. So like people are doing really
24:53
interesting things with it so like I think that's
24:56
we're at the birth of a new technology so like
25:00
you're not seeing a lot of the master works yet
25:03
you're not you know what I mean and it's still
25:06
like just like photography was there's like you
25:08
know it's still some people say it's not art
25:10
and then like of course like I went to school
25:12
for photography so I believe it's art you know
25:14
and I think AI is the same thing it's a tool
25:16
that you could use to make some tremendous work.
25:21
Yeah, and I think, you know, I think with traditional
25:24
people, their views towards art, I think will
25:28
evolve over time, just like it did with photography.
25:31
Exactly. Yeah, I totally agree. And I kind of
25:35
want to ask a connected question to that too,
25:38
Tim, is so obviously, like one of the plus sides,
25:42
right, is that you have where anyone has access
25:47
to these creative tools through the use of AI,
25:51
like coming up with creative ideas or generating
25:54
things. But on the other side, I'm wondering
25:56
what your thoughts are on like the oversaturation
26:00
of art that gets generated by AI, let's say.
26:04
So like if everybody generates AI and then so
26:08
that you have these really amazing pieces of
26:11
artwork or whatever, but there's so many of them.
26:13
Do you feel like that makes it more difficult
26:16
for those that would traditionally stand out
26:20
and be more noticed? Like in the past, do you
26:25
feel like that there's a risk there with that
26:27
at all? I think that's true. I don't know if
26:30
there's a risk. I think as an artist, you know,
26:35
it is always a challenge to sort of like stand
26:38
out. But like my advice to everyone is to always
26:42
just be true to yourself. So like create for
26:44
yourself is kind of the key. Yeah, I mean, like,
26:48
you know, in the art world, that's certainly
26:50
an issue. Like, how do you like, especially with
26:53
like AI stuff, there's so much stuff that looks
26:55
the same, that I find at some point, I don't
26:58
even look at it when it has that look anymore.
27:00
So you're just not paying attention. You know,
27:02
I've just seen so many posters that look exactly
27:05
the same, the chat GPT poster that like every
27:08
restaurant seems to happen now. Like, you know,
27:10
it almost becomes visual noise. I don't pay attention
27:12
to. So like, it's harder. So like, you understand
27:15
as an artist, like, okay, I can't use this in
27:18
this way, unless I'm playing with the idea of
27:20
slaw. I mean, I've seen a bunch of videos of
27:22
people like creating fake posters and face fake
27:25
stickers, then going into like a food store and
27:26
put them on. And they look exactly like a food
27:29
store thing, except for like they're nonsensical
27:31
or something, you know, it's like the bananas
27:33
are from space or something, you know, like that
27:35
kind of thing. So it's like, you know, it's kind
27:37
of like, you know, you either talk about the
27:41
fact that so much of the stuff looks the like,
27:43
or you find a creative way to make your stuff
27:44
look different. I think that's sort of like your
27:47
job as an artist. Yeah, and I like what you said
27:51
there about like, because so many of them look
27:54
similar, like you almost you don't you just don't
27:57
really notice them after a while. And then it's
28:02
probably then it would follow that it's more
28:04
likely that you actually would notice things
28:06
that are a bit out of the ordinary or unique,
28:09
right? Because if you have so many that are just
28:12
really similar. Actually, you have a greater
28:15
chance of standing out if yours is different
28:17
from that generated. I don't want to say like,
28:21
I mean, the term AI slop gets used a lot, right?
28:23
Because it's because of that. But so do you do
28:28
you feel like with you with looking at things
28:32
like, on that same note, like physical art, so
28:37
you know, like you go to a museum or things like
28:39
that, do you feel like that will spark greater
28:42
curiosity because of the automated generation,
28:46
because there's so many digital art forms. Do
28:48
you think that people will move more towards
28:51
like physical art forms? Yeah, I think so. But
28:54
you even see it coming into the physical space.
28:57
So like I work a lot with NASA. I'm a solar system
28:59
ambassador. And it's like one of the things I
29:01
share is how NASA has actually used AI to design
29:05
pieces like physical pieces. that are then 3D
29:08
printed for a lot of their spacecraft now. But
29:11
they don't look like anything a human has built.
29:13
Like, you know, we always create based on what
29:16
we know. So, you know, you're kind of like it's
29:18
this tradition and like, you know, AI is creating
29:21
based on just what makes sense instead of what,
29:24
you know, the ways people have done it before.
29:27
So it looks like stuff out of an alien movie,
29:29
but it's structurally more sound than the stuff
29:32
that we've been creating. So it's really interesting
29:34
to kind of see It's funny because we're still
29:41
in the early part of this evolution, but AI merges
29:47
now with 3D printing and with these other elements
29:50
in ways that weren't expected. So the truth was,
29:54
when Andy Warhol was creating, he wasn't making
29:57
most of the artwork himself. It was his idea,
29:59
and then he would outsource it to his factory
30:02
of people that were making it. And he was like,
30:04
He was making films, sculptures, screen prints,
30:08
all stuff at the same time. Music, you know,
30:10
he had a band, Velvet Underground. So he was
30:13
really the predecessor of like the way we're
30:15
using AI because now anyone could do that. It
30:18
really has made it easy for anyone to create.
30:23
And like I think when you're treating yourself
30:25
in what you're doing, you're actually creating
30:28
in a way that no one else is. So like that's
30:30
the only... Really way to navigate this crazy
30:33
world of you know creativity is like, you know,
30:37
do I is this important to me? I think that's
30:39
kind of the kind of key thing because it's like
30:41
the authenticity has to be there For it to really
30:45
work. Do you think the Do you think that's something
30:49
that will always remain is like you mentioned,
30:50
you know 3d printing which obviously you have
30:53
You can use a 3d printing program and use like
30:57
files to create things, but then there still
31:01
is like the actual tangible object, right? So
31:05
you have, do you think that that's something
31:06
that will always remain and won't go away as
31:09
like that, like physical crafting or the thing
31:12
that is going to be tangible? Yeah, for sure.
31:16
I mean, there's a value to it. Also just using
31:18
your hands in that kind of way. Like, you know,
31:21
the tangible is sort of like necessary for us.
31:24
You know, it's weird because it's like we've
31:25
become so digital. Like now I think most of my
31:28
photos for my entire life are digitized. Like,
31:31
you know, so it's like, you know, on my phone,
31:34
I'm able to look back, you know, to whatever
31:36
period of time. But I think that the physical
31:40
stuff is a little bit different because you don't
31:41
create it at the same pace. But I think it is
31:44
something that like is certainly going to stay
31:47
with us. But it will change. I mean, you know,
31:51
even with 3D printing, you saw like it went quickly
31:54
from like, you know, everyone was sort of creating
31:56
the same sort of plastic things to then people
32:00
are using it in interesting ways. So like 3D
32:01
printing and cooking, and you're able to do things
32:03
you never could do before. Like there's a place,
32:06
a chocolate place around the block for me that
32:08
does 3D printed chocolate. And it's just like
32:11
they create these outstanding sculptures out
32:13
of chocolate that are super cool. And then we
32:16
have like 3D printed houses. as long as there's
32:19
a whole neighborhood, you're able to create a
32:20
house in 24 hours. Like that's outstanding. I
32:23
mean, and the houses look different. You know,
32:25
a lot of them are more circular because it's
32:27
just faster to build like that. So it's changing
32:29
the way some of the things are designed. But
32:33
it's just, it's super interesting to see. And
32:35
like, you know, I think we're in that stage where
32:38
like everything is now AI supported. So like,
32:41
you know, there's some AI supports in almost
32:43
anything you do these days. I mean, the biggest
32:45
thing is the medical field, right? A lot of general
32:49
doctors are kind of going away and I could see
32:52
in the next five years just going in and having
32:55
AI do that first round, giving you your blood
32:57
work and then once the blood work's done, if
32:59
you need to see a doctor, you see a doctor as
33:01
opposed to the way that we're doing it. And if
33:04
you ever have to get surgery, thank God for AI
33:06
because it's really made some differences in
33:08
the medical world. There's so much that's changing
33:12
so fast, it's hard to kind of keep up with everything.
33:16
So Tim, like you obviously you create a lot you're
33:19
an artist and you also have where I mean, you're
33:23
clearly not opposed to technology, right? You're
33:25
using technology. So I'm just curious, like what
33:27
for you, what are the things that you gravitate
33:30
towards that? So whatever tools you want to talk
33:33
about that you you feel like you get to really
33:38
express your creativity through while still,
33:40
you know, like you remain in charge, but you're
33:43
using these tools to your advantage to be creative.
33:45
What are what are like one or two that you go
33:47
to? Sure. You know, one of my favorite music
33:50
tools is, you know, I know that, you know, some
33:53
people are split on it because of the privacy
33:55
things. They're being sued right now by some
33:57
musicians, and that should be really interesting.
33:59
And I always support like, you know, I don't
34:01
want to ever steal anyone's work. So like, you
34:03
know, I always support the artist on that. But
34:06
like for me, it's been really useful because
34:09
like I write all the lyrics and then I'll put
34:11
them in. So it's like I'm creating the lyrics.
34:13
That's totally me. And, you know, it's gotten
34:17
better and better. Like it will now it could
34:19
actually create music with my voice. So like
34:22
you could, you know, sing into your phone a couple
34:25
of times and it will get your voice and then
34:28
create songs as you, which is just. something
34:31
I did not see coming, you know, from using it
34:34
to like, could you make a quick song about like,
34:36
you know, the geology in Long Island, you know,
34:40
like that's what we were doing a couple of years
34:41
ago. And now like, you know, I'm, you know, singing
34:44
my horn section into my phone. So like it's gotten
34:47
really good, really fast. I also love like, you
34:51
know, we're Google schools. I use Gemini and
34:53
notebook LM or Gemini notebook or, you know,
34:57
whatever it's going to be called now. So those
35:00
tools are really good at, you know, I love creating
35:04
animation. So like being able to create animation
35:07
is fantastic. Adobe Express is fantastic for
35:10
that too. They have the create with just sound,
35:13
which is fantastic. I also, I draw every single
35:16
day. So like, you know, I draw in my sketchbook
35:19
at home, but I have a phone on me. So I'm like,
35:21
I'm using like Adobe Aqua all the time. So it's
35:25
a drawing tool that's free. And I love it because
35:28
it's like, You know, it has some games in there,
35:31
but like, you know, you could really be creative.
35:34
It gives you a full range of different tools.
35:37
And I like tools that do one thing really, really
35:41
well. So like, you know, these are kind of good
35:43
examples of it, I think. So it's always interesting
35:46
to kind of see where the tools go and then to
35:48
be able to give feedback and say like, I'd love
35:51
the tool to be able to do this is always really
35:53
exciting. So like, you know, I reached out to
35:56
like Adobe and like, you know, there's a bunch
35:57
of things coming in the new version of Aqua that's
36:00
going to be very exciting. So Tim, you know,
36:06
creativity is obviously a passion for yours.
36:09
And I want to make a comparison here. Like one
36:13
of the things that we hear people talk about
36:16
AI is that, you know, it's displacing their thinking,
36:20
their offloading, their thinking to AI, and that
36:24
they're going to continue to do that as long
36:27
as they don't Well up to the point where you
36:31
have to learn a certain amount about something
36:34
to know that the generations that you're getting
36:36
back are are good and that they're relative and
36:39
that they're going to be useful. Do you think
36:42
you know do our students have enough knowledge
36:46
about creativity to know when something is truly
36:50
creative or do they also need to learn a creative
36:54
process along the way? You know like one of the
36:56
things that I'm hearing you know from from different
36:59
places and maybe there's a little bit of tie
37:01
into the screen time use but is that there's
37:05
this idea that we still need to be teaching kids
37:10
analog skills like handwriting and how much that
37:14
that connects with the brain to help understanding
37:16
to lead to greater thinking are there similar
37:19
things within the art space you feel do you need
37:23
to understand the analog parts like you talk
37:26
about you draw every day you're writing music
37:30
every day, you know, and those to me, while you
37:34
might be using a digital tool that they still
37:36
are those connections to the analog space, right?
37:42
Do you see the same thing with creativity and
37:46
artistic expression that we need to start our
37:48
students with some of those simple physical tools
37:51
first? Yeah, I think it is helpful just because
37:54
it gives you that base understanding that you
37:57
then apply, you know to whatever media you want
37:59
to And I would make an argument that it's actually
38:02
more important than it's ever been because it's
38:04
like AI is able to do some things really well
38:07
and Be creative. It's not really one of them
38:09
like, you know, we need to tell it how to be
38:11
creative It's not going to figure that out It's
38:13
really a generalizing machine right because it's
38:15
taking just the statistical averages of everything.
38:18
It's it's predictive based on things that it's
38:23
been exposed to. So part of what makes us creative
38:28
is our personal choices that sometimes vary from
38:33
the norm. Like a good song, sometimes it has
38:37
a key change and it goes in a different direction
38:38
or a good art piece is something that does something
38:42
you might not expect it to. So you wanna know
38:45
the rules before you can break them. So I think
38:48
you do need to sort of like teach some of those
38:50
foundational rules and I think design is something
38:54
that like Everyone should learn because it's
38:56
like it's all around us like as teachers if you're
38:59
not aware of how you're using it You're probably
39:01
just using it badly so like it's really important
39:04
to know good design and You know, there's there's
39:08
some of these new Things that you sort of have
39:12
with design because people who are designing
39:16
apps and things for us, you know, there's roles
39:20
where you have to know how people respond to
39:25
stuff. So it's really helpful to like have like,
39:29
you know, user input. So, you know, I like the
39:32
design thinking process is something that I think
39:35
is just really valuable because it starts with
39:37
empathy. And you're looking at like if you're
39:40
designing a classroom, so you want to look at
39:41
the students, you want to look at the teacher
39:43
but you also want to look at the custodian like
39:45
how do you clean it and you know all of these
39:47
different elements so like that design thinking
39:50
process is one of those things that I think you
39:53
know should be taught in that sort of way right
39:56
so it's kind of like if you understand the process
39:59
and you've developed the skills you then are
40:03
able to more intentionally recognize when using
40:06
that technology might accelerate what you're
40:09
doing might enhance the things that you're doing.
40:12
But until you have that base, it's really hard
40:15
to say. Otherwise, you're just going in and you're
40:17
playing with tools. And not that play is bad.
40:20
But it's the process, right? Yeah. You're just
40:25
hoping to get lucky. Yeah. Otherwise, yeah, you're
40:28
hoping to get lucky. Exactly. Yeah, that totally
40:30
makes sense. So Tim, I'm kind of wondering about
40:36
one thing here with how we maintain creativity.
40:41
for students and I was listening to something
40:45
this morning actually that was talking about
40:47
like standardization versus personalization and
40:52
how you can personalize things for students because
40:54
obviously everyone has different interests and
40:57
they're you know not everybody likes the same
41:00
things or approaches things the same way. Do
41:03
you think that we spend too much time worrying
41:07
about productivity and efficiency and that is
41:10
a detriment to creativity or do you feel like
41:12
there's still a lot of good avenues for creativity
41:14
and it's not completely suppressed or anything
41:18
like that? It's a good question because being
41:21
efficient and being creative are often at odds.
41:24
Creativity is often inefficient because it has
41:28
more experimentation in it. We almost have to
41:33
give more room. Schools have been so focused
41:36
on results. for so long. And I kind of feel like
41:40
we need to shift to process more than results
41:43
because it's like, you know, when it's AI aided
41:47
work, you're able to get results really fast.
41:50
But it doesn't mean you understand the results
41:51
or that it has any meaning. So it's like understanding
41:54
processes becoming more and more important. You
41:57
know, efficiency is fantastic. I love being efficient.
42:00
I love the sound of things being efficient, you
42:03
know. But, you know, there's places that, like,
42:06
you don't always want to be efficient, that you
42:08
want to give time and be able to spread out and
42:11
have a deeper understanding. So I think that,
42:13
like, understanding the balance between creativity
42:16
and efficiency is really important. Even the
42:18
word creativity, a lot of people are sort of
42:20
afraid of that, you know what I mean? So, you
42:23
know, understanding how it impacts you and how
42:27
anyone can be creative. I mean, like, the nice
42:29
thing about being an art teacher for over 25
42:31
years is that you have students come back and
42:33
say like, I'm working in an office, but I'm also
42:36
painting. And it's like, I'm glad that person
42:39
has that gift of expression. That's enough sometimes.
42:44
You don't need to be a first class artist that's
42:46
in galleries and shows. Just making art for yourself
42:50
is totally viable. I'm not a great singer, but
42:53
I love karaoke. So it's like if there's something
42:57
fun and I think good for the soul with the arts.
43:03
And one of the things that's interesting is that
43:04
you see some of the big tech people, like Dario,
43:08
who runs Anthropic. That's where Claude comes
43:11
from. So he wrote these two essays about the
43:14
positives and the negatives. And he says he spends
43:17
a lot of time worried about what are people going
43:19
to do when AI is taking over a bigger portion
43:24
of the workforce? What are they going to do with
43:25
themselves? Because we define ourselves so much
43:28
by our jobs. So the arts is one of those things.
43:32
that people are going to do, right? It's something
43:35
that, you know, feels good. You enjoy it. It
43:38
has a value. Like, I feel good when I created
43:40
something in a day. Like, you know, that's a
43:42
good day for me. You know, it could be one of
43:46
the quick drawings I do or a song I wrote or
43:48
just some random thing that I came up with. But
43:52
I think that that's one of the other things is
43:54
that the arts are something that really feed
43:55
us as people. So that's why it's not going anywhere,
43:59
regardless of the tools. So based on his comments,
44:03
do you feel like there'll be more opportunity
44:06
for creative risk because we have efficiencies
44:09
elsewhere then? Exactly. That's precisely it.
44:12
And I feel like, you know, teaching people to
44:15
be okay with creative risk is part of my job.
44:18
You know what I mean? Like I'm the person that's
44:20
standing by the diving board. Like, you know,
44:22
it'll be fine. Don't worry about it. Just go
44:25
ahead and dive in. It's gonna be good. Right.
44:29
So and then I'm wondering too, do you feel like,
44:34
is there a danger in the, if AI can always give
44:39
us the right answers? And so let's, I'll just
44:42
give you a scenario. So like, let's say I'm on
44:45
the creative side and I'm deep in that and that's
44:47
what I'm spending a lot of my time on. And like,
44:50
if I'm relying on AI to always give me the right
44:53
answers, does that put me in a poor position
44:56
to actually know and think about what answers
44:59
are truly right? In other words, can I be more
45:03
easily tricked about things in less informed?
45:06
Not as a result of staying in the creative space,
45:09
but more so just ignoring the, I guess, for lack
45:14
of a better word, intellectual space. Right,
45:17
yeah. You're touching on the philosophical issue
45:20
here, which is totally relevant. Yeah, I think
45:24
the biggest problem is you lose confidence in
45:26
what's right and what's wrong. So people have
45:29
come to depend on AI for everything. And it brings
45:32
up an interesting issue. One of the biggest problems
45:35
with AI, especially in the population in K12,
45:39
is that people are using it for mental health.
45:40
And it will seemingly give you a good answer,
45:43
but it could give you really wrong answers too.
45:46
And you tend not to trust your own opinion at
45:49
some point. So it's really important to teach
45:53
students, especially, how to weigh AI and technology
45:57
as one perspective, not the guaranteed correct
46:02
perspective. So it's going to give you input,
46:05
but it doesn't mean it's right. I get lots of
46:07
advice from friends. I rarely take any of it.
46:10
It's good for them, but what works for you is
46:13
going to be different. And I think that's the
46:15
same thing here. It's nice to have all of the
46:19
information at your fingertips. And AI is great
46:22
to give you like, even when I travel, like, you
46:24
know, like, you can tell me like what things
46:25
are available in, you know, Arizona this weekend,
46:28
it'll do that for you. You know, but it's up
46:31
to you to know what you actually want to do.
46:33
You know, because it's a like the thing to do
46:35
is to go see this game. You know, what if you're
46:38
not into it? So like, you know, it's knowing
46:39
yourself has become more important in having
46:43
the confidence to make those decisions. And it's
46:47
like, you know, philosophy in general, they start
46:50
with the answers and they kind of figure out
46:51
the question. So it's going backwards. And that's
46:54
sort of like what we are dealing with as AI sort
46:58
of has disrupted thinking processes. So I think
47:01
my creative thinking needs to be something we
47:04
work at all the time and understand. And like,
47:07
you know, these tools could definitely support
47:10
and help you and give you different perspectives.
47:12
But ultimately, you need to be a part of it.
47:15
That's why I like mapping things out so you see
47:18
the students and where are they putting their
47:21
input. If it changed the idea, that's fine. But
47:25
why is it better? Asking some of those questions,
47:27
you need to actually, we need to always be like
47:31
a philosophy coach now when you're using these
47:34
tools to help students not just get the results,
47:38
but understand the results and understand what's
47:40
good and bad. I feel like you gave us our YouTube
47:44
title, which is, I often receive advice from
47:47
friends, but rarely take it. Tim, this has been
47:54
a lot of fun. We want to get into some lightning
47:56
round questions here for you. Feel free to elaborate,
47:58
to respond as long or as short as you need to
48:01
here. But we've just got a few of them here.
48:03
We'll bounce off you and see where they go. I'm
48:06
going to start with the first one. So as being
48:08
someone who's very passionate about creativity,
48:12
but yet someone who always knows that there's
48:14
room to improve things, what's one creative skill
48:17
that you wish you were better at? I still wish
48:20
I was a better musician. I mean, I pulled out
48:22
my guitar yesterday. Because yesterday I was
48:26
on Tom Petty Radio on Sirius XM. So I did a radio
48:29
show of my five favorite Petty songs. And I'm
48:31
like, I wanted to play some of the Petty songs.
48:33
And it's like, I played them. It's like, boy,
48:35
I'm just not going to make it. It's the hours
48:38
of practice. With music and with storytelling
48:43
are two areas I spend a lot of time getting better.
48:46
I present a lot. And I want to be the best. storyteller
48:50
possible. So like, you know, I just wrote an
48:53
idea for a TED talk, I'm kind of writing another
48:55
one in the middle of writing a book. So I'm putting
48:57
these stories in all the time. And understanding
48:59
how to be the best storytellers really important
49:02
to me. So it's something I'm working on. And
49:03
I think that translates storytelling is part
49:05
of art and part of music. So it's all in this
49:09
through line right there. All right. What is
49:13
one tool analog or digital you could happily
49:16
create with for the rest of your life? Oh, I'd
49:19
be happy just to have a sketchbook and a pen.
49:21
Like, you know, one good pen and a sketchbook,
49:23
I'm happy. I mean, you know, I'm excited sometimes
49:26
when I have an hour train ride because I'm like,
49:28
all right, I'm just going to be drawing everybody.
49:30
You know, by the end of the train ride, it's
49:31
a little weird because everyone's staring at
49:32
me. Not everyone's comfortable with that. But,
49:36
you know, I love having a sketchbook, you know.
49:40
So it's something that I always create with and
49:42
I always enjoy. So Tim, if you could collaborate
49:45
for one day with any artist, a filmmaker, a designer,
49:49
a musician, you know, living or dead, who would
49:52
you choose to collaborate with? I'm going to
49:55
say living just to make it more challenging because
49:57
it's such a, like, you know, if I have the entire
49:59
history of the world, that's too much. So I'll
50:02
go with David Byrne from Talking Heads. So like,
50:05
you know, he went to art school. I've had the
50:08
chance to meet him, like, you know, super cool
50:09
guy, just really interesting. And a different
50:12
kind of thinker, like he still makes interesting
50:14
stuff to me. So it's just like, I value someone
50:17
that's always working and pushing forward. Like,
50:20
you know, he's not staying in the space of the
50:23
talking heads. He's kind of doing his own thing,
50:24
you know, made a musical on Broadway. It's like,
50:27
you know, working with Fatboy Slim, just keeping
50:29
it interesting. And it's like, that's my whole
50:31
goal in life is just keep it interesting. Like,
50:33
you know, I don't know where I'm going, but I'm
50:36
never going to be bored. What's something completely
50:40
unrelated to education that is inspiring you
50:42
right now? Oh, geez. I mean, that's mostly where
50:47
I get my inspiration from. So like, you know,
50:52
right now I've been, you know, listening to a
50:56
lot more music. So like, you know, I just saw
51:00
Geese the other night and like, you know, they're
51:02
a really interesting band because it's like the
51:04
90s are coming back in this weird way. grunge
51:08
bands, but with influences of everything that's
51:11
happened since grunge. So that's always kind
51:13
of interesting to me. And we just went to the
51:15
pep rally. So I always want to know what the
51:18
kids are into, too. And it's so all over the
51:21
place. It's always kind of fun to see what music
51:26
they're listening to. And it used to be maybe
51:29
there's rock and maybe there's rap. And now there's
51:32
1 ,000 genres of micro. Genres and like people
51:35
are into some punk band that like 12 people know
51:38
but they have a big, you know online presence
51:40
so, you know, I love kind of seeing culture and
51:43
where it's going and Creating art about that
51:47
culture. So it's always fun. All right, and perhaps
51:50
the most difficult question of all David and
51:53
I are hosting a conference tomorrow. You're gonna
51:55
be our keynote speaker you're coming on stage,
51:58
you want to pump that crowd up to get them ready
52:00
for the big presentation. What do you want that
52:03
walk -up song to be as you take the stage? For
52:07
tomorrow, we're doing it with, it's going to
52:08
be Taiman Pala. So like let it happen. So I think
52:12
that matches both my philosophy and like it has
52:16
my hype. So that's where I'm going. Well, perfect.
52:20
David is writing that down. I can see right now
52:22
that it's going to make our Spotify playlist
52:26
that we have put together of all the responses
52:29
of the guests that we've had on the show. So
52:31
we'll be sure to send you the link to that playlist,
52:33
too. Yeah, I want to know, what does Matt Miller's
52:36
hype song? Yeah, that's curious. Yeah, interesting.
52:39
It's on there. I don't remember what it is off
52:41
the top of my head. Yeah, I don't recall you
52:44
there, but. yeah it's on there yeah there's some
52:47
people where i i know what the song like you
52:49
know i know like with with holly it would be
52:51
like uh you know taylor swift or there's people
52:54
you know like at least the artist and there's
52:56
other people that like i have no idea so it's
52:58
interesting i like that not that there's anything
53:00
wrong with the taylor swift song let's just put
53:02
that out there we have an audience that we need
53:04
to appease still so yeah you do not want to go
53:06
against taylor swift yes she's fake too i mean
53:08
like i appreciate her yeah well written songs
53:13
All right. Well, Tim, we definitely appreciate
53:16
having you. And we just wanted to give you a
53:17
chance. Is there anything you want to mention
53:19
as far as upcoming events or where can people
53:22
reach you, follow your work, that kind of thing?
53:25
I'm excited. So it looks like at ISI this year,
53:28
I'll have a new book, which is always really
53:30
exciting. So it's about kind of the conversation
53:34
we just had about creativity in the world of
53:36
AI, how to use it and help students understand
53:40
it. And then I also have my OK Go lessons that
53:44
are out there on OK Go sandbox. Fantastic new
53:48
video they have. Super cool. They're adding more
53:51
stuff. I would also say that they have a special
53:53
right now where they're really supportive of
53:55
education. So like they are going to go into
53:57
10 different classrooms so you can sign up to
54:00
be one of those classrooms and have OK Go teach
54:03
your students. And then I'm also working with
54:07
Discovery Education on a new AI master class
54:10
and some more supportive things for educators
54:14
to use in this crazy evolving world of artificial
54:19
intelligence. Well, great. Thank you so much,
54:23
Tim. Thank you guys. Great seeing you. Yeah.
54:26
Can't wait to see you again soon. Excellent.
54:30
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54:55
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