Latest / Make Water Work Podcast / Catalyst Collab: Shalini Vajjhala | Make Water Work 044

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Catalyst Collab: Shalini Vajjhala | Make Water Work 044 · Make Water Work Podcast

0:02
I'm Isaac with 120 Water.
0:04
>> And I'm Chelsea with Rogue Water, and
0:06
we're excited to welcome you to the Make
0:08
Water Work and Catalyst Collab.
0:32
>> Well, hello everyone, and thank you so
0:33
much for joining the Make Water Work
0:35
Podcast. This is the Make Water Work and
0:38
Catalyst Collab. Um, this is a
0:41
collaboration with Rogue Water Lab, who
0:43
puts on an experience called Catalyst,
0:46
and this year it's in sunny San Diego.
0:49
Um, and it really is a opportunity to be
0:52
in a room with like-minded folks who
0:56
um, are all pursuing improving
0:58
themselves. And so, Chelsea and Greg
1:00
Wukash do a great job of bringing in
1:03
experts, particularly from um, places
1:06
that aren't necessarily in the water
1:08
industry. And that's something that's
1:10
been valuable. Um, and so, um, Chelsea,
1:13
I love I love being able to start this,
1:16
um, all these podcasts by, um,
1:18
celebrating what you create it at
1:21
Catalyst and the experience that you
1:23
give all of us. Um, and today, tell us
1:26
about who our guest is.
1:28
>> Yeah, well, thank you, Isaac. I
1:30
appreciate that. Super excited to tell
1:33
you about our guest today. I just
1:34
recently became acquainted with her, but
1:37
uh, Dr. Shalini Vajhala is the executive
1:39
director of Pre-Collective. That's a
1:41
group of like public service-minded
1:43
experts on infrastructure and project
1:46
development, and they help communities
1:47
make the most of transformational
1:49
infrastructure opportunities, which is
1:51
so relevant to our water sector. And you
1:53
know me, I never read people's bios, but
1:56
hers is so impressive, I've got to tell
1:57
you just a little bit more before we say
1:59
hi. She is also founded um
2:03
a design and finance firm that works on
2:05
public private partnerships, and she
2:07
co-founded an online collaborations
2:10
platform for local government.
2:12
Um she has held senior roles at US EPA,
2:16
at the White House Council on
2:18
Environmental Quality. Uh she has a PhD
2:20
in engineering and public policy from
2:22
Carnegie Mellon University. So, um Dr.
2:26
Rajagopal just has like more than two
2:28
decades of experience designing,
2:29
funding, financing community centered
2:32
climate uh infrastructure work. And so,
2:34
what a relevant expertise to bring and
2:37
it's supposed to our Catalyst guest. So,
2:39
really excited about that and really
2:41
excited to have you on the podcast
2:42
today, Shalini.
2:43
Welcome.
2:44
>> Oh, thanks. Thanks so much, Chelsea.
2:46
Thanks, Isaac. Water people are my
2:48
favorite people. I'm so glad to be here.
2:51
>> It's it's amazing, and it's so it's so
2:54
funny that um we're saying earlier, this
2:57
has been a long time introduction where
3:00
um
3:01
Shalini and I have not really met um
3:04
before, but ironically, when I started
3:07
at 120 Water in 2018, one of my first
3:10
calls in my first 30 days was to someone
3:14
who worked at the Atlas, um a
3:17
uh the project that she started um and
3:20
was a meaningful place for me to learn
3:23
cuz my biggest question was
3:25
okay, we have a solution
3:28
and the thing, but the
3:29
the challenge is going to be
3:31
procurement. How do people in in state
3:34
and local government solve um
3:36
procurement challenges? And
3:38
I found the Atlas and I found L and
3:39
Ellery and um connected connected with
3:42
them. And so, um yeah, this is this is
3:44
very exciting.
3:46
So, that was how I found um
3:49
that was how I found the Atlas.
3:51
Um
3:51
but, I love starting our podcast with
3:55
how did water find you?
3:57
Why are we your favorite people?
3:59
>> Why are you my favorite?
4:01
I I think you guys are my favorite
4:03
people because water touches everything.
4:07
And so, I I walked into the field
4:09
somewhat sideways and I think it's been
4:11
a real privilege to be able to
4:15
find multiple doorways into working with
4:18
folks in the water sector. So, I would
4:19
say the the first really deep anchor
4:22
that I got in the field and in the
4:24
sector was actually when I was in
4:26
architecture school. I had a chance to
4:28
spend
4:30
six months a semester abroad working in
4:33
megacities. And so, this was a program.
4:35
I was the only architect and it was a
4:37
mix of a lot of other people who were
4:39
coming at issues affecting megacities.
4:42
And one of the biggest ones was
4:44
not enough water or too much water
4:46
in places around. So, I spent time in
4:49
Cairo and in Mumbai, India and in Rio de
4:52
Janeiro, Brazil.
4:54
And in Rio, there were communities that
4:56
would slide off the hillsides. These
4:59
informal communities with regular rains
5:01
and rebuild.
5:02
And there were challenges with water
5:05
infrastructure. That was the basic
5:07
fundamental thing. In India, it was
5:09
watching people walk carrying water
5:12
constantly.
5:14
In Egypt, it was amazing how many people
5:16
chose to live in places where they would
5:18
walk for their water but have access to
5:20
other amenities and be relocated by
5:23
railway expansions and other things. So,
5:26
it was this deep underlying thing that
5:30
was constant in all the different ways
5:33
that I was seeing issues pop up. And
5:35
that has remained true in 20 years of
5:38
climate resilience work.
5:41
>> I love hearing that because, you know,
5:43
in the water sector, we're often in
5:45
rooms with just by cells with just water
5:48
people
5:49
and really lamenting on just the crucial
5:51
importance of water the value of water
5:54
its role in everything and often you
5:57
know feel like we're not in these other
5:59
rooms and other places and that was you
6:01
know through architecture study that you
6:05
on your own kind of came to this
6:07
realization of water's role in things.
6:10
Um, I also find you know maybe that's
6:12
part of your story to this next question
6:14
but your kind of like background and
6:16
expertise at the intersection of
6:18
infrastructure and climate resilience
6:20
and community is unique. What pulled you
6:24
towards that?
6:25
>> You know, it's funny. My career looks so
6:28
coherent in hindsight and it never
6:31
really did going forward. It was always
6:33
trying to follow interesting problems.
6:35
So it does go back to that early work in
6:37
Rio
6:39
and what was fascinating is that that
6:41
work followed me all the way into
6:44
my time at EPA where I was in the
6:46
international and tribal affairs side of
6:48
the house but almost everything touched
6:51
water.
6:52
And so the the things that pulled me
6:56
toward this
6:58
um
6:59
the work that brings all the fields
7:01
together
7:02
was really I started asking some very
7:04
basic questions in working across those
7:06
big cities cuz the problems were so
7:08
similar and the contexts felt wildly
7:11
different on the surface but when you
7:12
dug down
7:14
it was really about what do people need
7:17
to have good lives? Why are they making
7:20
the choices they're making? So I started
7:22
collecting hand-drawn maps and it was a
7:25
it was a way of getting around language
7:27
barriers and I wanted to understand
7:30
one of the very first neighborhoods I
7:32
was in
7:33
there were people who were being their
7:34
houses were being torn down to expand a
7:36
railway line and they were gone one day
7:39
and they were back the next.
7:41
And I started asking questions um with
7:44
very limited language access to a lot of
7:47
people. And what became clear was these
7:50
people have been offered homes
7:52
way way way on the edge of the city.
7:55
But they lost access to all the things
7:58
that made it possible that for them to
8:00
build a better life.
8:01
>> Yeah.
8:02
>> That sense of hope. And so they just
8:05
kept coming back to these very
8:06
precarious and informal communities with
8:09
limited infrastructure access. And so
8:11
I started collecting these maps that now
8:14
in hindsight connect all these issues
8:16
that you just listed off, Chelsea. But
8:18
at the time
8:20
I was asking questions like, "Where do
8:21
you go every day?
8:23
Um what's most important to you? Why are
8:24
you here? Like in this place?"
8:27
>> Yeah.
8:27
>> And what started coming up was a set of
8:31
things that turned into um graduate
8:34
research and engineering and policy
8:37
that turned into questions like, "Okay,
8:39
when you say not in my backyard, how
8:41
big's your backyard?
8:43
>> Mhm.
8:43
>> How close would you be willing to live
8:45
to a water treatment plant or a power
8:47
line?
8:48
How close is too close? How far away is
8:51
I'm okay? It's not my problem."
8:54
And what's amazing is those questions
8:57
carried into work with the World Bank in
8:59
Southern Africa. It became a way of
9:01
building up a a set of tools almost to
9:06
get to what really matters to people and
9:08
then design infrastructure in service of
9:11
that. Rather than designing
9:13
infrastructure
9:15
based on what we always had.
9:17
>> Yeah.
9:17
>> And so one of the great delights of my
9:20
career was being able to go back to Rio
9:22
as an official of the PA
9:24
>> Mhm.
9:24
>> and recognize those hillside communities
9:27
ahead of the 2016 Olympics. And what we
9:30
were able to do in collaboration with
9:33
the Brazilian government is find
9:34
creative ways to help water
9:36
infrastructure get built.
9:38
And one of the ways we did that is we
9:40
said,
9:42
"Well, instead of trying to build water
9:44
infrastructure, what if we called water
9:47
infrastructure landslide protection
9:50
for these communities that are sliding
9:51
off into tourist districts on a regular
9:53
basis?"
9:54
And it's I think the entry point in this
9:57
unusual way opened up the space to ask
10:01
um surprising questions and find new
10:03
answers at the end of them. And so,
10:06
it was really exciting. The city of Rio
10:08
was able to support a lot of water
10:10
infrastructure development in favelas
10:12
ahead of the Olympics by combining it
10:16
with
10:17
civil defense authority works on
10:18
resilience. And that's really where like
10:22
these things started coming together for
10:24
me.
10:24
>> Mhm.
10:26
>> I love that.
10:27
>> Yeah, well, I
10:28
>> wild ride gets to respond first,
10:30
Chelsea? I don't
10:32
>> I don't know. I was going to jump in and
10:34
make you fortunate to let me respond
10:36
first. Go for it, Isaac.
10:37
>> No, go No, you. I Yeah, I was like I'm
10:40
like we we both have so much that that
10:42
we could react to in that. Um but you go
10:45
for it.
10:45
>> because it relates so much, you know,
10:48
we're going to have you at Cadasta this
10:49
year and unbeknownst to you it relates
10:51
like what some other people are going to
10:53
tie into and talk to, too. And I just
10:55
think the whole like um
10:57
curation of that is going to be awesome
10:59
for attendees. But the other thing I
11:00
hear in there is
11:02
you know, I'm I'm constantly thinking
11:03
about utilities through water works with
11:05
utilities a ton. And
11:08
a lot of times when they hear from the
11:10
community not in my backyard or they
11:11
hear we're opposed to this, they just
11:14
get they being utility people get scared
11:17
and kind of stop or defensive and oh
11:20
man, what a bad angry customer.
11:23
Without, you know, just cuz they don't
11:25
have those same tools and skill sets and
11:28
questions that you kind of developed and
11:30
were equipped with to say, "What do you
11:32
really mean by that?" And listen, right?
11:34
And it it's not so scary and there there
11:37
are ways to get to common solutions if
11:40
we actually just listen to what everyone
11:42
means and wants, but I do like to
11:44
recognize that that's a scary thing to
11:46
do. And I know the water sector is like,
11:48
"We're not equipped to do it yet." So
11:51
>> Yeah. Yeah, I would I was thinking about
11:54
like how
11:57
the repositioning and the reframing
12:00
of we need to do water infrastructure. I
12:03
think a lot of times, even the way that
12:04
we label funding at the federal level,
12:06
it's like, "Well, what's going to
12:07
water?" And so it's like sometimes we're
12:10
like water's getting underfunded,
12:13
which is absolutely true, and there are
12:15
other things that are important to
12:16
communities that will require
12:17
restructuring of
12:19
water infrastructure. So like, where's
12:22
where's that overlay where we can say,
12:24
"Okay, this project is really important.
12:26
It's not
12:28
directly water infrastructure, but it
12:29
will allow for water infrastructure
12:31
upgrades." Um but it does require a
12:34
little bit of um thinking a bit more
12:37
abstractly about about what it is and
12:40
not as linearly.
12:41
Um
12:42
>> And it's a tricky dance, right? So like,
12:44
Chelsea, one of the things I think is
12:46
scariest is when you are supposed to be
12:49
an expert in something, when you are
12:51
responsible for something, money or an
12:54
outcome,
12:55
a lot of times you're help you're
12:57
holding yourself to a different standard
13:00
and trying to find ways that are
13:04
still really holding accountability for
13:07
that role and that expertise,
13:09
but creating that space for listening, I
13:11
think, that's where the magic is. And so
13:15
my
13:16
um
13:17
my experience on this is like no one
13:20
wants a water main. They want clean
13:21
water. No one needs a highway. They need
13:24
to get safely to school and the people
13:26
they love, and so often times we leap
13:29
too quickly to the answer or the
13:32
obligation of what we think we're
13:33
supposed to deliver. And
13:36
I think by just slowing down enough at
13:40
the beginning, like not feeling that
13:43
pressure and urgency to say there might
13:44
be a wider set of solutions here.
13:47
What is the actual outcome I'm trying to
13:50
achieve? It's making sure that these
13:53
folks are safe and have access to clean
13:56
water.
13:58
And just by sticking that word safe in
14:00
there, it opened up 10 times the amount
14:03
of money.
14:05
Mhm. Like if as a water professional, if
14:07
you can tap into, you know, another
14:11
budget,
14:13
that's magic.
14:14
And it's often times right there within
14:17
your skill set. And so, like my other
14:19
favorite example is the city of Hoboken,
14:21
which had amazing non-water people who
14:24
did water. And this was one of our
14:26
earliest projects when I started
14:29
Refocus, the predecessor to WRI
14:31
Collective.
14:32
Um and we got to work with the city
14:35
after Hurricane Sandy. So, way too much
14:37
water.
14:39
But they basically came at a problem and
14:42
said we need flood We need flood
14:44
resilience, and we were able to do that
14:46
pause, that three-week pause, and say,
14:49
"What else do you need?"
14:51
And instead of getting pumps, which
14:53
would have been the immediate answer
14:55
when you look in your wallet and see
14:56
what can you afford. I can afford a $5
14:58
million pump.
14:59
Or I can afford this upgrade or this
15:01
sewer separation. What we were able to
15:04
say is, "Can we also get you
15:08
parking and parks and other ways to pay
15:10
for this?" So, if your cars are floating
15:13
down your streets in an in an event, why
15:16
not have parking pay for your flood
15:17
protection when it's dry out? And it's
15:20
that But asking the question that way
15:23
opened up the like
15:26
well, why can't we have a bathtub?
15:28
Turned out the parking garage wasn't the
15:29
bathtub, but the conversation about it
15:33
opened the door to this crown jewel of
15:35
an asset that Hoboken was able to build.
15:38
And they went from scraping to find $5
15:41
million
15:42
to financing a $100 million crown jewel
15:46
of a park now.
15:47
>> Wow.
15:48
>> So, that's the difference, right? But,
15:49
it has to happen right at that early
15:52
stage. Otherwise, you've already locked
15:53
in to now, how do I get a better pump?
15:55
And that's the wrong question.
15:57
>> Uh, yeah. Yeah.
16:00
Yeah, that like taps into like the
16:02
humanity side of like
16:04
that
16:05
allowing for sometimes the uncomfortable
16:08
silence when there's any problem,
16:09
whether that's interpersonal or
16:11
anything. It's like, I want to I just
16:14
want to resolve this so everyone goes
16:17
home. Like like can like can we just
16:20
be done with this con like there's this
16:23
is a conflict and we have to solve a
16:24
problem.
16:26
I want to jump over here,
16:28
but everything that's lost in that space
16:31
in between
16:33
um
16:33
is is amazing opportunity. Um, yeah, I'm
16:37
going to I'm going to be chewing on that
16:39
for for a hot second.
16:41
>> I also think, you know, that community
16:43
engagement trust building where do you
16:45
you that example, I think, was a great
16:48
way to show ROI. But, a lot of times
16:51
when you're talking, if you say
16:52
community outreach, we need to go slow
16:55
down and spend some time to win some
16:57
trust. It seems like decision makers
17:00
just look at that as like a soft thing
17:02
and we're not budgeting for that and no,
17:04
no, no, we have to speed forward. So, I
17:07
think and correct me if I'm wrong, you
17:09
kind of call this stage pre-development.
17:12
What does that mean exactly? Why Why you
17:15
think it is so underfunded and like gets
17:18
not enough attention to to do that step
17:21
first?
17:22
>> I'll define it first and then I'll tell
17:24
you why I think people miss it. Um so
17:27
the definition we use at Pre Collective
17:29
is it's all that early messy stuff that
17:32
you have to do
17:33
to build what you need next instead of
17:36
putting familiar band-aids on what you
17:37
already
17:39
So it is not a neatly defined or
17:42
sequence of activities where you can
17:44
just check the boxes and work your way
17:46
through. I think that's what a lot of
17:48
people wish it were
17:50
but that's how you get a better pump.
17:52
Right? That's where you have pre-decided
17:54
the answer.
17:55
So it's squishy. Parts of it feel as
17:57
uncomfortable as Thanksgiving dinner can
18:00
and you really have to work those skills
18:02
and learn learn that space.
18:04
But other parts of it can be super
18:07
rewarding. And I think the reason it
18:09
gets missed often
18:12
is because
18:15
like when you do it well, a lot of us
18:17
work in water and climate resilience and
18:19
infrastructure, it looks more like
18:22
preventative health care
18:24
than it looks like any other kind of
18:25
work. So
18:27
when you do it right, you're generally
18:28
heading off bad outcomes, you're
18:30
creating better outcomes, but that's way
18:33
down the line, it's spread out across a
18:34
lot of people
18:36
and so there isn't this way of saying
18:38
invest up front to avoid all these
18:41
long-term costs. And that's why at Pre
18:43
we feel so strongly about you have to
18:45
show not tell
18:47
so that you can show both the community
18:49
value and the financial value and make
18:51
the case for that investment up front.
18:54
And it's not just the money investment,
18:56
it's the time, it's the flexibility,
18:59
it's that nobody does outreach well when
19:01
they're time-famished or like working
19:04
with time confetti of I have to fit this
19:06
into this 30-minute zoom.
19:08
You have to have that flex and so it
19:11
it's a discipline in a lot of ways, but
19:13
I think it doesn't get noticed because
19:15
when you do it really well, like water
19:18
professionals will feel this really
19:19
deeply, right? When you do your work
19:20
perfectly, nobody notices. It's when
19:22
something goes wrong, you know, the
19:25
the the water main break that everybody
19:28
knows that your job exists. And I used
19:31
to say this half jokingly at EPA, but
19:34
climate resilience
19:35
the year after the storm, everyone
19:38
applauds your work. The year after that,
19:41
no one remembers and your budget gets
19:42
cut. And the year after that, your staff
19:44
go away.
19:45
So, I actually think most of my job is
19:50
two basic things. It's English to
19:52
English translation across these sectors
19:55
so you can get folks together.
19:57
And it's storytelling about that what is
20:01
the value you can create. And so, I
20:04
think it all comes back down to that
20:05
kind of scary point where you meet
20:07
community.
20:09
Asking a question like, "Hey, what would
20:12
it take for you to support this
20:13
project?"
20:15
Or what would make it more exciting for
20:17
you or more valuable?
20:19
Is really different than what do you
20:20
think about this design or this plan?
20:23
>> Yeah.
20:24
Yeah.
20:26
>> You're listening to the conversation.
20:30
Please, what's the difference
20:31
>> I don't know. I'm smiling so much and
20:33
and like all of these hearing from
20:35
people like you because it's the things
20:37
that Rogue talks about and still I I
20:40
just think hearing, you know, utilities
20:42
and the water sector hearing from
20:44
an expert, you know, all these other
20:46
experts saying, "Hey, we we There are
20:49
better ways. And no, just cuz you're a
20:53
very smart engineer does not mean you
20:56
necessarily know how to go and have, you
20:58
know, this this conversation the right
21:01
way."
21:02
>> Yeah. I think a lot of times, so as
21:04
someone who has gone through the like
21:06
engineering
21:08
um
21:08
education version of this. The skills I
21:11
use on the engineering side of the house
21:12
are figuring out
21:15
um
21:16
sh- uh how to frame
21:18
technical challenges really well. So,
21:20
like the is this worth doing?
21:23
And the what are the alternatives
21:25
available to us? The skills I use for
21:29
the early parts of projects are actually
21:31
a lot more like the Thanksgiving dinner
21:33
skills, right? It's the how would I have
21:35
a conversation with my grandmother about
21:37
this in a way that
21:39
recognizes how smart she was and does
21:43
not disrespect that without
21:46
requiring of her the expertise
21:50
in this specific thing. And that to me,
21:53
those are different skills and I I think
21:56
it's a shame that we don't get taught
21:58
them more in engineering school.
22:00
>> Mhm.
22:01
>> But I also think we got to pick them up
22:03
because otherwise you are setting
22:05
yourself up for the opposition where
22:07
people just move right back in to that
22:10
space where they were
22:12
um no matter what you offer them because
22:14
you didn't ask.
22:16
>> Yeah.
22:17
Well, it it also feels like it's so much
22:19
at the root of what it means to build a
22:22
community is like we're
22:25
we're living together in some borders
22:27
and deciding
22:29
and the this is kind of the beauty of
22:32
politics even when it's crazy. Um is
22:35
just that like it is the practice of
22:38
saying, "Hey, how do we want to organize
22:40
ourselves around the resources that are
22:42
available to us?"
22:44
Um
22:45
and I and I think it's it's rare that
22:49
that we
22:51
um create the safe space for a
22:52
conversation to say, "Hey, we need to
22:54
hear multiple perspectives, but also
22:57
zoom back a little bit and say, is there
22:59
a larger
23:00
opportunity or problem we're trying to
23:02
solve. Like are we like
23:04
making things that are like like we're
23:06
doing this right now in in our in our
23:08
city. We're putting a brand new bus line
23:12
down. It's disrupting tons of traffic
23:14
and I drive by it and I see I was like,
23:16
"Woah, this is such a good opportunity.
23:17
We're We're replacing all the water
23:19
mains across the busiest street in our
23:22
city." and I know our water utility
23:23
folks are excited about this project. I
23:26
see it's it's happens in my neighborhood
23:28
so it's like very disruptive and so I'm
23:31
I'm in those Facebook groups and chats
23:32
and you know where folks are are
23:36
are venting but I'm like I'm like, "Yes,
23:38
we're we're also doing it I think really
23:41
we're taking advantage of multiple
23:42
infrastructure projects to do a
23:45
>> Yeah.
23:45
>> bunch of stuff all at once that is like
23:47
we're not going to have to do this for
23:51
do this again in a while. Um yeah,
23:53
that's a little bit of a tangent and
23:54
just in the thing
23:56
that that's good planning and I'm just
23:58
so excited like someone did this right.
24:01
>> But I think it's squarely in it, right?
24:02
I think it's it's this we don't we don't
24:05
often have the simple message
24:06
conversations and we don't say the thing
24:08
that everybody's feeling which is like,
24:10
"Guys, this is going to suck for 2
24:11
years."
24:13
Like let's be real. It's not going to be
24:15
any fun. Like I'm in San Diego and there
24:17
is a ton of construction around me and I
24:19
am like the local infrastructure and
24:20
housing enthusiast where I'm like,
24:22
"Isn't it going to be great in 10 years
24:25
when we don't have to deal with that or
24:27
when we are more fire safe because of
24:30
it?"
24:31
And I think folks get these pain points
24:34
when for example you're trying to fix up
24:36
your home. We're like, "Ugh, you know,
24:38
it's going to be like a construction
24:39
site. You're managing toddlers or
24:41
whatever it is." and
24:43
we make that trade-off when we're making
24:46
the whole decision for ourselves. But we
24:48
often don't get that dose of perspective
24:51
or get to hold on to it with the
24:52
reminders of like
24:55
"Wow, this is going to be like this does
24:57
suck. That's very real. I don't have
24:59
anywhere to park. I now have it takes me
25:01
10 minutes longer to get my kids to
25:02
school.
25:03
I think some of that is a function of
25:07
how we're required to do community
25:09
engagement, which is really broken um
25:12
and leads to bad outcomes. It's kind of
25:14
the box checking version of it.
25:17
Doesn't let you do the simple stuff and
25:19
where you get ahead and you're like you
25:21
ask the open-ended question. You always
25:24
feel like you have to present something
25:26
and that often closes a door before you
25:28
can even open it.
25:29
>> Yeah.
25:30
>> But one of the things that makes me nuts
25:31
is like
25:33
and this is more in the context of like
25:35
say an Army Corps project, a really
25:38
massive coastal protection has to hook
25:40
up to a water system. Nobody goes in and
25:43
tells a community
25:44
this is going to be a 10-year process.
25:47
Every single engagement is treated as
25:50
its own one-off event and if you don't
25:52
know how these things work, you're like
25:54
what's next? What am I am I supposed to
25:57
put this level of effort in like every
25:59
two months, every three months? Like why
26:01
have they been silent for a year?
26:03
That expectation setting is so important
26:06
and it's not anywhere in the checklist
26:09
of what counts.
26:10
>> Mhm.
26:11
>> Yeah.
26:12
>> So, just thinking about how you would
26:14
want to be treated and putting yourself
26:17
in the shoes of a resident of
26:18
Okay, here are the facts like
26:21
it's going to suck, but it's going to be
26:23
better after it's
26:24
and I'm going to ask for a lot of your
26:27
time for about six months and then
26:30
there's going to be a period where you
26:31
wonder where I've gone and it's going to
26:33
be like a year of radio silence and then
26:35
this construction is going to happen,
26:37
but like that level of basic I don't see
26:40
in very many places or engagement
26:42
opportunities.
26:44
And I think it's it's an opportunity
26:47
missed, right? Like if you talk to any
26:49
engineer on a project, they know this
26:51
stuff. They would tell their They would
26:53
tell their family. I was like, "Okay, so
26:55
here's the deal. The street's being torn
26:56
up. It's going to be 2 or 3 days cuz
26:58
it's this."
26:58
>> Yeah.
26:59
>> Um
27:00
but we just don't think about doing it
27:03
in these more technical contexts. But I
27:05
think the simple information is
27:07
undervalued.
27:09
>> It's crazy, too, cuz hearing you kind of
27:11
recap it and just saying it so simply
27:13
like that, it's so simple. And you know,
27:17
no one's meaning ill will towards not
27:21
doing it, right? There's something
27:22
called the curse of knowledge, and
27:24
sometimes when we know things, we forget
27:25
what it's like to not know them. And so
27:28
we walk in just kind of assuming
27:29
everyone like understands a process, so
27:32
we forget like our brain doesn't think
27:34
to break it down. But yeah, some of
27:36
these things are so simple. I'm also
27:39
curious your thoughts and kind of how
27:41
Pre Collective works with trust. Like
27:45
how trust comes into, you know, when
27:47
you're doing collaboration with a lot of
27:49
different parties. You know, you said
27:50
the messy work. You know,
27:53
I It seems like trust is going down
27:55
everywhere. We We talk about all the
27:57
polls like for government, but it seems
27:58
like no one trusts anyone. No one trusts
28:01
data. No one trusts facts. No one um
28:04
What does that look like in Pre
28:05
Collective's work, and how do you
28:07
approach it or address it?
28:10
>> Oof.
28:11
Um
28:13
>> Simple question, you know.
28:14
>> Oh, yeah. No, it's the little stuff.
28:17
I mean, I think we approach it
28:18
continuously, right? And we hold
28:20
ourselves to a really high standard of
28:22
saying what we mean and following
28:24
through on what we're saying. So we're
28:26
always trying to under-promise and
28:27
over-deliver.
28:28
>> Mhm.
28:28
>> And we do a ton of that expectation
28:31
setting along the way, and the course
28:33
correcting of, "Hey, this is starting to
28:35
look different than what we thought it
28:36
might be, and we might need to adjust."
28:39
And
28:40
the other thing I think is we just use
28:42
really plain language um
28:44
because it's
28:47
it's easy to lose trust if you make
28:49
someone feel dumb.
28:51
>> Yeah.
28:52
>> And
28:54
that is something that I
28:57
I think I got a like an incredible
29:00
education in that from having
29:02
two grandmothers who helped raise me who
29:03
were the smartest people in the world.
29:05
They spoke half a dozen languages, but
29:08
they were pulled out of school in
29:09
elementary school.
29:11
And so they
29:12
always felt like they wouldn't
29:14
understand. And so
29:16
I I think one of the things that's
29:18
helped me stay in that headspace is I
29:21
try to think about, you know, if you
29:23
have access to a second language, the
29:25
best thing you can do is take your
29:28
technical information and try to say it
29:30
in your second language.
29:32
>> Mhm.
29:34
>> And it is almost impossible unless you
29:36
are a professional engineer in multiple
29:38
languages because
29:40
I I think my favorite example of this
29:42
was in grad school. I was working on
29:44
carbon sequestration issues and
29:46
groundwater contamination. And I was
29:48
working on the risk and community
29:50
engagement side.
29:52
And I went to go visit my grandmother
29:54
and she had the courage to ask. She
29:56
always asked me, "What are you working
29:57
on?" And she didn't ask other people
29:59
because she was afraid she wouldn't
30:00
understand, but she she asked and I was
30:02
like, "Oh, no. I don't have any words
30:06
for carbon sequestration in my family's
30:08
native language from South India."
30:11
So I was like, "Give me a second." And I
30:13
finally was able to say, "Okay, here are
30:15
the important pieces." I was like, "Do
30:17
you remember your your coal stove
30:20
when you were young?" She was like,
30:21
"Yeah."
30:22
It's like, you know, "How did it feel
30:24
when you had that thing going?" She was
30:25
like, "Oh, it was smoky." I was like,
30:26
"Okay, so work with me for a second. I
30:27
want you to imagine getting a bucket and
30:29
catching that smoke." And she was like,
30:32
"All right." And I was like, "So you've
30:34
got the bucket with the smoke." I was
30:35
like, "Walk outside.
30:37
If you could dig a hole anywhere in the
30:38
ground and put that in the ground, where
30:40
would you put it?" And her first answer
30:42
was, well not near the well and I said
30:44
that's what I'm working on.
30:47
And she was
30:48
off to the races. Like she called one of
30:50
my great aunts, they had a 3-hour
30:51
conversation, they left feeling like
30:54
experts in carbon sequestration, and
30:56
then they were like you got to do
30:57
something about this. Like it can't go
30:58
into the well.
31:02
That is the core of it.
31:05
>> That
31:07
I literally have chills because imagine
31:10
if we could all
31:12
do something like that and talk like a
31:15
normal person and connect with people
31:17
like that, the passion they would have
31:20
and the 3-hour conversations they would
31:22
have and the impact the world would have
31:25
and be better and and that's why you
31:27
know the skill set matters.
31:29
>> And they will share the work so you
31:32
don't have to. Your upfront time
31:34
invested like I didn't have to teach my
31:36
great aunt about carbon sequestration.
31:38
She called me a month later
31:40
and was like so listen I've been
31:41
thinking.
31:44
But you create your own support network
31:47
when you do that little early bit well
31:49
and it is
31:51
it's so hard. It's and you're not going
31:53
to get it right every time and you're
31:55
not going to get it right with everyone.
31:58
But the key is just that the giving it a
32:01
go is something we lose in our careers
32:05
as we get more expert. And I think
32:07
taking ourselves back to that how would
32:09
I explain it to a kid? How would I
32:11
explain it to a grandparent? How would I
32:12
explain this to someone in my
32:14
neighborhood
32:15
who is expert in something else.
32:19
And just reminding everybody that
32:22
someone else is expert in something else
32:24
and they don't need to become an expert
32:26
in what you do. You are that. You get to
32:29
hold that for them. What you need to do
32:31
is meet them with what they need to know
32:35
to feel safe
32:37
and confident that you respect them.
32:41
>> Mhm.
32:42
>> And that's where I think the
32:44
Yeah, well, the good-heartedness of
32:46
water people. Like we're working on
32:48
stuff that is essential for everyone's
32:51
life. Like these are not optional
32:54
systems or services or outcomes. And so,
32:58
we can This is doable. This is not
33:01
You've done the hard stuff. You've
33:02
become a water expert. Now you need to
33:05
become
33:06
a neighbor and a grandkid and a parent
33:10
and be able to switch hats at the right
33:12
moments.
33:13
>> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me of like
33:18
that aspect of
33:20
um
33:21
of just as you grow up in general,
33:24
sometimes, you know, sometimes I'm like,
33:25
"Oh, man, I
33:28
I need to remember what it's like to be
33:30
a kid and just to to know that I was
33:33
like
33:35
curious and also not like more
33:37
uninhibited. Um
33:40
And just
33:41
yeah, like could just lean in and that
33:43
like the more knowledge you get, then
33:45
sometimes the more um sometimes that can
33:47
come with more anxiety of like, "Am I
33:49
saying it right? Am I doing it right?"
33:50
But if like you said, like if you give
33:52
it a go, like a lot of times people will
33:53
be like,
33:55
I
33:56
I see the authenticity and the like,
33:58
"Okay, like we can we can work cuz
34:00
there's like
34:02
Yeah, it's when we bottle up and say,
34:06
"You're
34:07
Oh, what are you hiding? Like I feel
34:09
like you're not saying something." And
34:10
yeah.
34:11
>> Or the pressure of needing to give a
34:13
right answer. I think one of the things
34:15
that I is under appreciated is like
34:18
asking a question rarely gets you into
34:21
the papers for saying something. Like
34:22
asking a question and waiting for an
34:24
answer. Whereas the pressure to give the
34:28
answer
34:29
to someone is That's a different thing.
34:32
And I think a lot of times as we get
34:34
further into our careers the expectation
34:37
is that we are there to give an answer.
34:40
And we're not. We're there we are that
34:42
is nobody's job to give answers.
34:45
The job in infrastructure in any sector
34:49
is to make people's lives better.
34:54
>> Yeah.
34:55
>> That's it. Right? Like that's it.
34:58
And if you can hang on to that with both
35:01
hands and like shake yourself loose when
35:03
you want to answer a question
35:07
it's um
35:08
I think it's protective because this
35:10
plain language stuff it's not it's not
35:12
the stuff that gets into newspapers.
35:14
It's not the stuff that's going to get
35:15
you in trouble. Just asking someone like
35:17
hey
35:18
what would it take for you to support
35:20
this project? Like what would it take to
35:22
make it suck less to have all this
35:23
construction for 2 years?
35:25
That's not going to get you into trouble
35:27
and I think so often the fear comes
35:31
around getting the wrong answer.
35:34
But there are very few wrong questions.
35:38
And so there's actually a safety in it
35:40
that I want to really encourage folks to
35:43
lean into. Like I promise you I live at
35:46
the edge of all of my expertise every
35:48
single day.
35:49
And this is it's it's a way to just
35:52
reduce the pressure on yourself.
35:55
>> Yeah.
35:56
>> This is so good Shalini.
35:58
Yeah.
35:58
>> Yeah. I know some of my take aways.
36:00
>> give we're giving so much. I'm almost
36:03
scared that we're giving so much away
36:05
and
36:06
to get the good stuff you need to come
36:08
to Catalyst. Like
36:11
>> There's plenty more behind this.
36:12
>> Yeah, I know. I'm like I'm like there
36:14
there's a lot more.
36:15
>> think we're just scraping the surface.
36:18
So so too like if people are are
36:21
are listening obviously we'll talk about
36:24
Catalyst and coming to Catalyst. If you
36:27
know, they're like, I want to learn more
36:30
about Preflective, how how
36:33
you guys can work together, how you
36:35
know, they're just interested in your
36:36
work, where would they find some of it?
36:39
>> Oh, come come find us online, please. We
36:42
are at precollective.org on the web and
36:46
our whole team is on LinkedIn and very
36:48
active. So, come say hello.
36:51
We love when people come to us with
36:53
questions, like um that early stage
36:56
stuff. And
36:59
I think one of my wish list for people
37:01
in the water sector is that
37:04
I hope we can use these skills to get
37:07
better RFPs, so that we get more
37:10
Hobokens and fewer buying a pump.
37:13
>> Yeah.
37:14
>> Mhm.
37:14
>> Oh, that's a good that's good use.
37:16
Well, yeah, so good. I And you know, I
37:18
hope someone's takeaway, too, is that
37:21
relieve the pressure on yourself. We can
37:23
ask questions, right? We don't have to
37:25
come in and just inform inform. I think
37:27
the scary part of public meeting
37:29
sometimes or community engagement is we
37:31
don't have the answers, so we don't we
37:33
just want to skip the step. So, I like
37:35
how you relieved us of that. And yeah,
37:37
like Isaac said, if you of our listeners
37:40
are hearing this
37:41
before September of 2026, we hope to see
37:44
you in San Diego. Shalini is going to be
37:47
there
37:48
doing some great interaction, guiding us
37:50
through a session, guiding us through
37:52
this work. Um and you can find that
37:54
online. There'll be There'll be links in
37:57
this podcast video and and wherever
38:00
you're finding that. So, and if not, we
38:02
hope to see you at future Catalyst. We
38:03
bring people like Shalini and
38:06
experts we can learn from every single
38:07
year. So, thanks so much for This was
38:10
just so good today. Thanks for joining
38:12
us.
38:12
>> Yeah. I can't believe this is my job. I
38:14
love it. Um
38:16
yeah.
38:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, thank thank you.
38:21
And and again to our listeners, we're
38:23
very excited that we get to
38:26
kind of pull back the curtain a just a
38:28
little bit on on what the experience is
38:31
like at Catalyst. And so, be sure to
38:33
follow all those things. Um reach out,
38:36
let us know
38:37
who you're who you're enjoying hearing
38:39
from, and if there's anyone else that
38:40
you're like, "Wow, they've got a great
38:42
story of how they make water work." I
38:44
love hearing that, too. And so, can't
38:46
wait to see you next week.